Hyper-Preterism Debate Review w/ Dr. Sam Frost

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Well, hello and welcome to The Apologetic Dog, where it's our heart's desire to contend for the faith.

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And specifically, we're talking about the gospel of grace. And so, my name is Jeremiah Nortier.

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I serve as a pastor and elder at 12 Five Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas. So if you're in the Northeast Arkansas area, we'd love for you to come look up 12

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Five Church and come fellowship with us. We'd love to meet you. You can look us up on our church website.

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That would be 12FiveChurch .com, the word 12, the number five, church .com.

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And so here at The Apologetic Dog, we're about apologetics. And so we understand that nobody is neutral.

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We must, as Christians, stand on the truthfulness of God's word wherever we go. And so when

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Paul tells Timothy in 1 Timothy 6, verse 20, he says, oh, Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you and avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.

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And so those worldviews that rival Christianity, they will contain logical contradictions of what they espouse to be knowledge.

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And we refute that. We refute that by standing on the truth. Jesus said, Father, sanctify them in the truth.

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Your word is truth. And so that's a little bit about The Apologetic Dog ministry. I actually have an announcement that I'd like to inform everybody of.

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Coming up in September, September 8th and 9th, I will be speaking at a conference in Topeka, Indiana.

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And so this is an eschatology conference where the question that we will be talking about is how then shall we live?

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Because eschatology matters. Why are we here? What end are we living towards?

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What's history? It's his story, it's Christ's story of redemption, and it's going somewhere.

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So the end, what we are promised in the gospel matters for us today and how we are going to live.

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And so what I will be talking about is the resurrection of the dead. I'll be talking about our resurrection with Christ as we are so close to him.

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When he resurrected, that meant something for us. That actually pictured that we too, when we pass from death to life, from this world, we will be resurrected for eternity with bodies fit to rule and reign with Christ.

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So if you're in the Indiana area, I would love to meet you and for you to come out to the conference.

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And so speaking of eschatology, this episode today is very special because I want to continue that conversation with eschatology with a dear friend of mine,

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Dr. Sam Frost. How are you, sir? Hello, and thank you for having me back on your show, and I'll be seeing you in Topeka, Indiana here in a couple of weeks.

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Yes, I look forward to that. I may have to run my rough draft by you and get some of your thoughts because my central passage will come out of 1

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Corinthians 15. I can't think of a better place to talk about our blessed hope, how since Jesus was resurrected and he was the first fruits, we get a picture of the kind of resurrection we can hope for looking to him when we pass from this life to the next.

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So Dr. Frost, you have been so instrumental in my understanding of eschatology about what's that proper balance of the essential things that we hold with a closed fist in those things that are non -essential and are still important, but we can sharpen one another in those things.

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So you were on The Apologetic Dog, I think, for the first time last summer. So a lot has happened between now and then.

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Yes, there has been a lot that's happened. Where do you begin?

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But anyway, go ahead. Yes, so within that, you and I will be speaking at a conference in February.

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I believe we're gonna be going to Tennessee area with Jeffrey Rice. I just wanna tell everybody, please not only subscribe to The Apologetic Dog, that helps my ministry out a whole lot, but also go over and just look up Jeffrey Rice.

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He has a YouTube page as well. That brother has been doing a lot of things wonderful in the ministry.

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That's why I encourage people to go check him out. He is hosting a conference in February, and the conference is

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Why Calvinism? And so I believe that Jeffrey Rice is going to be hosting a debate with Dr.

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James White. And I'm not sure, the gentleman, that he is going to be debating, but it's gonna be a showdown for the ages.

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So people can look forward to that. Go to the conference. It's going to sell out quick, but there's gonna be a pre -conference.

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And so that's where you and I come in. You and I are gonna be talking about the dangers of full preterism. What do you think about that,

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Dr. Frost? I think it's needed. You actually were also instrumental in my thinking because I was getting ready to last year really leave discussing full preterism or any of that kind of stuff at all.

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And you stated, no, don't do that. We want to expose it as much as possible, even among those that have never heard of it or anything else so that when they, if they do encounter it, they know what to do with it.

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And that hit me like square between, and I thought, no, never really looked at it that way and prayed about it and talked with some other folks.

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And they said, yeah, your friend is right. Your brother's right. And I said, well, okay, I'll keep doing this then.

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Because I was really going to stop. My studies are concentrated, not on anti -full preterist stuff.

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I'm involved in other things. And so these debates and things like this come up because I know full preterism.

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And no, it's not hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people are becoming, you know, full, you know, that they're there, they're out there and they're making their way in.

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And you've encountered that even locally. I have not seen that locally where I'm at, but I've had several pastors come to me.

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And, you know, what do I do? I've got a couple of guys here that are really disrupting our church. What should I do? And I warn them, rebuke them.

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If they don't change, excommunicate them. Well, I do have some good news.

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There was two full preterist churches in my local area and one has already shut down.

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And so praise God that those doors have been closed. The lamp stand that wasn't there to begin with is removed.

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And so to me, that is an answer prayer. And this does go back to last year when I called you up because full preterism was starting to spring up.

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And you know who we need to blame, Dr. Frost? We need to blame Eli Ayala, because I'm a big fan of revealed apologetics.

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And I remembered you. I remembered he had you on to discuss kind of the dangers of full preterism.

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And I was like, I need to call this man up. And so you let me ask all my weird questions.

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And you were patient with me with my premillennial dispensationalism, which I'm no longer.

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So you helped me work through some of those things. And hey, it's been awesome, right? It's been almost a whole year later,

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I think. It's a good example of iron sharpening iron and contributing to each other's lives.

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So yes, it's been not just doing shows and things like this, but actually changing my mind.

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I mean, that literally changed my mind. So yeah, great. It's all in the Lord. God does whatever it is that he does.

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Amen. And we're not God, I'm not God. Thank you for contending for the faith, especially in this area of eschatology, because typically eschatology is a third tier issue where we can have coffee and disagree.

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But full preterism is a complete overhaul of eschatology into a completely different worldview that believes in a different Jesus, which we may talk about a little bit.

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And it totally takes away our blessed hope with the gospel promises. And so people get mad at me,

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Dr. Frost, and they're like, why are you being mean? Why are you disfellowshipping people that identify with this realized eschatology?

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I'm like, well, that's what the apostle Paul did with Hymenaeus and Philetus. It's so crystal clear that our resurrection is central to the gospel.

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What Jesus accomplished is telling us that we too will be resurrected with a resurrection like his.

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And so before we get into some of the things that you've done recently with your debates and things of that nature,

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I just wanna tell people once again, I'll be speaking in September in Topeka, Indiana, which

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I'll be seeing you in person for the first time. And in this conference, Jeffrey Ross says,

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Jeremiah, whatever y 'all wanna talk about, that's up to y 'all. And so we may change our game plan between now and then, but I really wanna focus -

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Oh, we might get Michael Sullivan. Oh, goodness, Michael Sullivan.

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Yeah, I may have to read a little bit of House Divided in preparation for what I wanna do. So like in September, I'm gonna be speaking on the resurrection of the dead, but more in a positive presentation.

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And so what I'm thinking for February is I'm gonna be talking about the apologetics side of the resurrection of the dead.

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So I really am going to talk about the danger of a covenantal resurrection that full preterism tries to teach, especially in relation to 1

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Corinthians 15. And so I'm really gonna highlight on that aspect of warning people about full preterism.

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And so maybe you will talk about the parrhesia. I know all of it's in your wheelhouse, but me and you, we gotta tag team this, don't we?

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Yeah, yeah. And that's something where we have plenty of time to work on.

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No pressure. The angle is for Paul in 1

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Corinthians 15, and again, this is commonplace if you read the top tier commentaries and things like that, the resurrection of the dead based upon the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

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So that becomes fundamental. This is not an issue that we are free to walk away from.

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Even with Hymenaeus and Fletus, so whatever they were saying, we just, we don't know, but most agree that they were spiritualizing, obviously.

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And that Paul condemned in the most richest choices of words like gangrene and shipwrecked faith.

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So he's using images there of one of cancer, of a destructive disease, skin -eating disease.

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And the other one is a shipwreck. That's how important, so that's not an issue that we can just say agree to disagree like on many, many, many other issues we can do that with.

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But this one, this one you can't. Right, and what I'd like to point out is it's not just the nature of the resurrection that's important, because it is, go read 1

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Corinthians 15, peoples, but also the timing. And so it's the time, if you get the resurrection wrong, if you were to put the resurrection of the dead in the past when it's still in the future, that's heresy.

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You're gonna cause people to leave the faith, upset the faith of Psalm, I mean, anathema language, essentially.

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So as we continue to talk, Dr. Frost, you recently had a debate at Standing for Truth.

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And so one of the things that I'd like to do this evening is to just review some of the talking points.

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And so I'm a big fan of Standing for Truth with the host, Donnie. And so, real quick,

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I was gonna pull up, another debate is going to be happening in about a month, a little bit less than a month with one of your friends,

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Pastor Anthony. He's taking on Dr. Don Preston. So they're gonna be talking about the great millennium debate is a thousand years future.

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So I just wanna encourage people, go check out Dr. Frost debate, which was last week, and be looking out for this debate coming up with Pastor Anthony.

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So y 'all are friends, you were telling me? Or at least associated with, he's doing his, finishing up his

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THM PhD at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. You like that Baptist part.

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And Donnie Budinsky did an absolutely wonderful job between me and William Bell.

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He was totally, just completely neutral. Just really didn't interrupt or say anything, actually.

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He just kind of kept it. I imagine he's gonna do that again with Don and Anthony there.

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I'm looking forward to that debate, actually. Dr. Frost, did you know I've been on Donnie's channel a couple times?

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Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I just actually have met him, so I didn't know what he was doing.

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And then I've asked you and you said, yeah, I've been on there several times. Donnie's the man. Donnie's up north in Canada, eh?

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So we gotta get him over in the States and show him how we do. Now, you mentioned, yeah.

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I talked with him and he just struck me as a, just outstanding. So we kept talking and then Young Earth Creation, I thought, oh, boy,

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I gotta talk with you. So just struck me like you, just as a next generation, go for it, you guys are doing great.

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And Christ is building his church. And I'm very optimistic meeting folks like that.

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Praise God. Now, you were on Donnie's channel and you debated a gentleman,

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Dr. Bell, William Bell, is that right? William Bell. I don't know if he has a doctorate, so I don't think he does. So Dr.

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Frost, tell us about the debate. What were some of your big thoughts? What were some highlight moments? What were some big takeaways that you had from the debate?

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Well, again, and it was Donnie that put them together. So I didn't know, Donnie came to me because, and I accepted,

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I thought William Bell is actually agreeing to debate me. So I jumped at the chance.

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Now, William and I go way back. William was an early early writer with the newsletter,

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Living Presence Ministries, when Max King and Tim King and Doug King were in Warren, Ohio, Church of Christ, Warren, Ohio, Parkman Church of Christ, Warren, Ohio.

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And that's where King wrote the magnum opus, The Cross and the Parousia. So it's 800 page full preterism, which

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I still say is the Bible of full preterism. That one is it. So William, getting to know

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Max back in the early 90s, and I wish I still had these newsletters.

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I had a button, every month they would send them out. So there, William Bell, who's mentioned in The Cross and the

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Parousia and Larry Siegel and Don Preston and Ed Stevens and Jack Scott, these guys and a few others, these guys were very early on in the early 90s doing the work that they're still doing today, corporate body view of the resurrection, which was

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Max King's baby. That's Max King came up with that. And so I've known

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William. And then when the Kings published my book, 2003,

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Misplaced Hope, you know, like I've given my story several times, now

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I'm speaking at all of these full preterist conferences, which they used to have a bunch of them.

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They don't have as many as now, but back then, 2003, 2004, they were having somewhere sometimes four or five a year.

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And I was going to all of them speaking. And that's, and so I met

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William personally. So William and I go way back and, you know, always a nice guy. I don't want to take anything away from any of that.

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The debate was super respectful, I thought. You know, William is William. He's very easy to talk to, but he is, this is the truth for him, that there is no other way to think.

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There are no alternatives. There are no possibilities of other ways of eschatology.

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So when, and that's how I was, that's how I used to be. We had struck plutonium with eschatology and we had solved all of the problems, the thorny issues of theology.

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And we had solved all, you know, this solves all sorts of theological issues that for 2000 years, the church has wrestled with.

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So we wrote, that's how, that's how we thought. That's how I thought that we really got an answer here.

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And yes, it goes against the creeds, but, you know, not so what, but, you know, okay.

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But that shouldn't alarm Protestants, you know? So that's, and William just, and he still just locked on that.

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So he very much, and I think that came out in the debate because I knew who

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I was going up against. And I thought, you know, if I could just show where, if I could get him wherever I go with scripture or whatever scripture

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I use, he's gonna interpret it through 70 AD.

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That's gonna be his, and I'm gonna take a chance here.

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I'm not gonna go into my usual 1 Corinthians 15 cause I know what they do there. Let me go some other passages.

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And that's where I hammered a little bit on Psalm 90, Isaiah 25. And it came out very clear that every single passage is 70

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AD. And I thought that's what you have to get into in order to be in their world of thinking.

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I was in that world of thinking, but fortunately I already had a Bachelor of Theology laid.

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That foundation was already laid before I became a full Preterist. And I had several good mentors in my life.

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One of them being Dr. Kenneth Talbot, who at the time and during those years, but nonetheless, he was a personal, direct face -to -face challenge because we would meet often.

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And so I, yeah, I was locked in that world, but my academic side was saying, oh, but yeah, you gotta challenge your own, you know, keep room over here.

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You're not infallible. And it worked.

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That was my strategy going into it was, let me see if this works and if Bill falls for it.

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And any passage I bring up, John 6, Isaiah 54, it doesn't make any difference.

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70 AD is gonna be read. And he did, he did exactly that, I thought. That's my point. I remember, yeah, when you brought up John 6, it was interesting because you got him to admit that doesn't apply to you.

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This is only the first century, only the apostles. Am I right? So there's no relevance for us today because this is all kind of talking to a, you know,

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I build up to 70 AD. So I don't know if you wanna speak any more. Like, so why do they do that?

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Like, I understand they have to interpret the last day, right, to 70 AD. So that's what commits them of saying, when

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Jesus says, all the Father gives to me will come to me, they're talking about just in a first century context.

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Yeah, you have to, and I said that over and over again because I wasn't speaking to William. I wasn't speaking,

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I know what William believes in. I wasn't speaking to full preterists that are going to say William, you know, just made

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Sam look like a complete idiot. I was speaking to those, because that to me is pointless.

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You know, that's been done. So, you know,

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I just didn't want that to be my strategy. So I thought, who's gonna listen to this?

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It's Donny Budinsky's show. So who's listening to this? And I thought he's, the majority of his listeners are not full preterists.

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Are not full preterists. And I thought, let me emphasize that this is a system you have to bite into.

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Into the system, it has a beginning and it has an end and you can't get outside of that circle once you're in it.

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And so every passage gets read in that light. So anything that you see has to be fulfilled by 70

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AD because that's their, that's, they can't go beyond 70

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AD. They try to, and that's really where the whole movement as it is right now really implodes because the what now question.

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They accuse us of 2000 years. You know, soon doesn't mean 2000 years. Well, you have to deal with 2000 years too.

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What's God been doing? What are we supposed to do as a church? And here's where many abandoned the church. They don't go to church anymore.

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There's no point in it. All of that applied only to 70 AD. Everything ends there.

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So we're in the perfect one new man being built and fitted together jointly, joint to joint and bone to bone.

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Ephesians chapter four, there's so no more ministers or why would you have them?

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We're perfected. So, and all of this is covenantal. It has nothing to do with biology.

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It has nothing to do with physicality or matter or creation. It's covenantal, purely covenantal which is purely intellectual.

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So that's the gnosis part of it. Esoteric, it's, we would say at our conferences it's not our substance is changed.

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It's our stance is changed. So you think of the Greek terms substance and stance or stasis standing.

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So sub standing and standing. So it's not our substance that's changed. It's our standing that's changed.

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So that's completely esoteric and intellectual. That's not, it doesn't have nothing to do with biology.

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When the full predator says, you know something is covenantal, is there an implicit assumption that there's a hard break between the people of Israel and the church?

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Like, would this be a dispensational assumption in their own theology? Yeah, they operate very much like dispensationalists.

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They're very compartmentalized and they have very nice and neat charts.

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I've noticed, yeah. God at 7 .45 p .m. on the month of Ab stopped doing what he was doing and went in another direction.

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And we know that history is just, the manifestations of the marching of God's kingdom are just messy when they manifest in history.

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Dr. Frost, when I hear full predators talk they claim to like be the antithesis of dispensational futurist theology, you know.

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And yet, they will bring up the caricature of replacement theology and despair.

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And to me, well, they're doing the same thing that dispensationalists do.

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Just say, no, there's two people of God. You had Israel in the Old Testament and then you have the church essentially in the

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New Testament. And so I'm like, you gotta argue for that. You can't just let that be an assumption.

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And I just, I think it's very ironic that they are very much close to dispensational theology.

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The very thing that they claim to be the antithesis to. And so I really enjoyed the debate,

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Dr. Frost. I think you highlighted well that William has to redefine literally everything in order to make the system work.

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But that's exactly what it is. It's a system. And so when you read clear passages about death, it has to be reinterpreted into a type of Adamic death.

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Did I understand William's whole point is when he sees death, he reads into that this idea that since Adam was alienated from God, that this is somehow purely spiritual.

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And that's kind of the interpreting mechanism of how he reads 1 Corinthians 15 and other places.

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That's the only mechanism. So when you ask Don Preston or Larry Siegel or Max King or Mike Sullivan or David Green or Ed Hassert or any of these guys,

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John Noe, Ed Stevens, I mean, go down the list. It doesn't make any difference.

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They're all the same. Some of them say they're not full preterists. They all are. It is what it is.

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They're trans -millennial. You heard that one? Yeah, I was there when

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Tim King actually launched that and copyrighted it. He actually copyrighted that phrase.

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Because he didn't want the full preterist. That word was leaving a sour... It could mean anything.

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Everyone's preterist. Everyone uses Jesus' birth in Bethlehem. Okay, that's fulfilled.

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Does that make you a preterist? Well, see, that's the kind of language. That's why Gary DeMar says we're all preterists.

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Yeah, we're all preterists. I'm like, no. Yes, so they all believe that biological death had nothing to do with Genesis 1 through 3.

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So Adam, had he not eaten of the tree, he eventually would have naturally died.

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Physically died. And would have been accepted into heavenly glory without sin, without any of that.

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So his transitioning from his physical biological body on earth would have transitioned into a heavenly glory life without any breaks whatsoever.

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However, because of his sin, and now we die, you have this Hadean separation.

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So even when you die, you're still separated from God and you go to this gloomy netherworld place.

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So one of my biggest takeaways from the debate, though, that I thought you hammered, William, on, and to me,

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I was like, of course this is so important, but you're talking about the death, right? What is death?

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I mean, it's so intuitive for us that we understand that when somebody isn't living anymore, they're dead, they've experienced death.

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And I mean, it's almost weird how we have to qualify of saying, yes, that was a biological death.

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It's almost like, well, what else would it be? You know what I mean? And so something you brought out was you went to Psalm chapter 90.

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And I remember listening to you talk about it, I was like, oh, this is so good. This Psalm highlights how the years of our lifespan, of our life, are 70, or even by reason of strength, 80, yet their span is not without toil and without trouble, okay?

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And so this is a Psalm talking about, generally, how long people live physical lives, right?

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And there's toil, there's trouble. Sounds like maybe that's the effect of the fall or something, which I do want us to look at this phrase, because earlier back, and I believe it's verse three here, talking about man, you return man to dust, and say return children of man.

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And so the Hebrew there, I believe, is Adam, right? So is this a Psalm of Moses? So, I mean, there's a strong consistency with Moses writing the

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Pentateuch, and he articulates here what death looks like, returning back to dust, right?

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And so I remember you just, in very plain terms, this is death, what else could this be talking about?

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It's talking about physical life, and then one day, we're going to return to dust. And I thought, you know, that is probably one of the best explanations, biblically, of what the kind of death

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Scripture gives us. And nobody can argue with it, Dr. Frost. I mean, that's literally what we experience life now, the death of loved ones, right?

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Because death is not normal, it's an enemy, it's an intrusion into this world. When we go look at Genesis one and two,

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God made everything good and very good, and death wasn't anywhere around. I'm with you,

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Eileen, young earth creation, have a lot of love for my old earth creationist pals, but I believe death was a result of Adam's sin.

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I'm talking about death across the board. It's an intrusion. So anyway, that's a conversation for another time, but I loved how you brought up Psalm 90 here, and so remind me what

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William did when you brought up Psalm 90. How did he understand this? Well, being a

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Psalm of Moses, and I remember my

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Hebrew, I did two years of Hebrews, and it was either Richard Pratt or Mark Furtado or Waltke or one of them that said that the headings in the

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Hebrew scriptures, the headings of the Psalms are regarded as scripture too. That's not, they didn't, that's a part of the deal.

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And so this being a Psalm of Moses, I take it, that's what it is, unless you can show me different.

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So the return to the dust, Moses wrote Genesis, and so it's an interesting thing, and that's its association with Moses, this idea of returning to the dust, and it's

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God that says, v 'etah mev shuvu b 'nei Adam, sons of Adam.

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So that's Genesis 3, and it's plural.

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So it's not just Adam that received this return to dust, even though in Genesis 3, he's speaking singularly because Adam was the only human male that was alive at the time.

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So in the singular, he's speaking to Adam, you will return to dust, you will, dust you are, dust you shall be, and you will return to dust.

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But here in Psalm 90, it's sons, plural. So whatever happened to Adam, Paul reasoned also happened to all that are children of Adam.

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So Paul in Romans 5, 12, he's not inventing this stuff. He's getting it from the

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Tanakh. He's getting it from the scriptures that teach it. So whatever happened to Adam returned to dust, singular.

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That's also to the sons of Adam, to the plural. So that's clearly, here's a great

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Genesis 3 applying to an individual Adam at the time that is now application that's universal.

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And there's no getting around that. And it's clearly returning to the dust. It's defined as that in Genesis 3.

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That's what it is. He's taken from the dust and he's going to return to the dust. And we, that imagery is used all throughout.

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We all know what that dust you are. That's the funeral. You know what this dust you are, dust we shall return.

32:46

I've had unfortunately to preside over funerals and we quote this passage. We quote because we know what it means as Jews, as Jews, as Christians, as believers, as readers of the

32:59

Bible, but not so for Mr. Bell because if the curse is biological death, what is the redemption from that curse?

33:16

Right. So this is, you know, I've been talking with you for well over a year, learning from you, thinking through these concepts.

33:24

And so where the rubber really hits the road, 1 Corinthians 15. And so, you know,

33:30

I encourage everyone just go read the whole chapter and just see the beauty and magnificence of Christ and his resurrection and how that promises that we too will be resurrected like Christ.

33:42

And so here's a verse that's in dispute. 1 Corinthians 15, 22, for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

33:54

Dr. Frost, when I talk to full preterists, they immediately say, Adam did not die physically.

34:01

When God told him the day that you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will surely die.

34:08

And so their argument is he didn't die physically, therefore he must have died spiritually.

34:16

And so I say timeout because if we go back to Genesis chapter one, we see that God made man in his image and when he made man, it was very good.

34:29

Day six, right? Genesis chapter two. This is so important to talking about who man is, what the whole of man looks like, and it's going to relate to death.

34:40

In Genesis chapter two, God takes the dust of the ground and then breathes into that the breath of life and creates

34:49

Adam, Adam essentially, and then makes Eve from his side. And so I push to people, there's what man looks like, the dust of the ground, this physical reality, and yes, we are able to relate to God because he breathed into us the breath of life.

35:08

And so when he says the day that you disobey me in sin, there's gonna be justice, there's going to be death, which

35:16

Romans three tells us that all men earn. And so I press the point that death has to touch all of who man is.

35:24

And so don't mistake this to our audience. That would include the physical reality of death itself.

35:32

And so what's so interesting about Genesis three, the fall happens,

35:37

Adam and Eve sin against God. And so there's a bunch of curses that happen as a result of Adam's sin.

35:44

And so this is the part that you are bringing up. By the sweat of your brow or your face, you shall eat bread.

35:51

No longer is it gonna be this bliss and Eden that everything's done for you to just kind of look after.

35:57

But by the sweat of your face, that's how you're gonna eat bread, till you return to the ground, right?

36:03

For out of it you were taken, and for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.

36:10

And so this is telling us physical, biological death is a result of sin.

36:18

Now something you and I have talked about in the past, Dr. Frost, is that biological death should have happened to Adam and Eve that day, but we start learning more about the character of God.

36:29

Right, we get the proto -evangelium in Genesis three 15. And pull it up here real quick.

36:35

So God, the sovereign I will, I will put enmity between you and the woman, God is saying this to the serpent, between your offspring and her offspring, and he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

36:48

So this is a promise of the gospel that this coming offspring is going to crush the head of the serpent.

36:55

And so we see not only an effect of the fall is a physical, biological death, to dust you shall return, that's physical, but we start to see more about the character of God.

37:09

In verse 21 here, I don't know if you can see it on my screen. And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skin and clothed them.

37:17

And so there was a substitute that was made on behalf of Adam and Eve, and it was animal skins.

37:23

An animal had to die as a substitute to picture the perfect lamb of God who would ultimately take away the sins of the world.

37:30

And here's the point, physical death, a reckoning for sin did happen that day in the garden, but God is merciful and he provided a substitute.

37:39

And so my whole point, Dr. Frost, is there's no way around 1 Corinthians 15 about when it says, in Adam all die, because of Adam's sin, the effects of that was physical death and everything that ensues and comes after that.

37:54

If we go back to Genesis 3, it's all there. To the dust, man shall return, and you may can speak to this too.

38:02

I believe that day, Adam and Eve began to die. I believe Adam lived 950 years around there until he experienced death's end.

38:11

But it's all right there in Genesis 3. I think everything you said there is...

38:23

I was taking notes during your debate. That's why

38:28

I like just reading what, you know, that's the tense about, you know, yes, the actuality that you find there in Genesis 3 becomes later on many, many rich metaphors.

38:42

It becomes used with all kinds of metaphors that's used, but you have to have a reality or a basis meaning to have a metaphor or it's not a metaphor.

38:55

So, William tried to bring up passages about dust and all this bunch of other stuff. Yes, dust is used metaphorically.

39:02

Of course it is. But even the idea of repentance and throwing upon yourself dust and sacks of ashes and all that kind of stuff, and then when you repent and you have that time of mourning for your sins, what do you do with all that dust that's on you that you heaped up on you?

39:19

You rise up out of it. You see the image there? You've, your sin has brought you into the dust and you've covered yourself over with dust, so you're dead.

39:29

And then you rise up out of that dust, you're forgiven. That's the image that's going on, so it's constant.

39:37

And so Daniel 12 too, many who sleep in the dust of the earth. And it's interesting that in Psalm 90, it's you return them, it's an imperative there.

39:48

You say to the sons of Adam, return. God is commanding it.

39:54

And then he starts talking about long life and age, which to me is a no brainer.

40:05

It's obvious what he's talking about, but you can't, in William's world, you can't have biology being a part of the curse because again, what is the redemption?

40:15

It would be biological. It would be a resurrection of the body.

40:21

It would be all of those kinds of things. So because of 70 AD being the end point, and obviously there were no bones and bodies raised in 70

40:30

AD because archeologically, as I mentioned in the debate, we can still dig up mummies and bones, pre 70

40:37

AD bones and mummies and skeletons and all that kind of stuff. So obviously that didn't happen.

40:43

Then that because 70 AD is the end point of all prophecy being fulfilled and you can't have it biological physical, then you have to covenantalize it, allegorize it, spiritualize it, do whatever you got to do with it, but it can't be biological.

41:03

And that's because 70 AD, as I said in the debate, is the controlling factor in everything that they do.

41:12

That's it. And so that's really what I wanted to show in the debate.

41:18

I just said, here's an example, William Bell is a legend in full preterism. All the full preterists know who he is.

41:25

He goes back 40 years, he's been doing, so 30 years of writing that I know of.

41:31

And so he's very well respected in full preterist circles. And I thought, I'll just let him do it.

41:39

And then - Just hand him the shovel. Well, it's like I said, because of what you told me, keep doing what you're doing, because I really was,

41:51

I wasn't gonna keep up this kind of stuff. Out of the ashes, baby.

41:59

That changed my, it changed my strategy. It's not like, you know what? I don't have to debate, jot and tittle tit for tat points of X and all that.

42:10

That goes no, that, it has its place and I've done that. We don't have time on a forum like this to get into the, you know very well doing language studies.

42:22

I mean, it takes me three hours to get through two verses. What you're translating and reading the lexicon and trying to, you know.

42:31

So we just don't have that kind of time. And I thought, here's just, the Christians are gonna be watching this, just let these guys speak for themselves and let them, you know, bring out what it is.

42:43

So that's what I tried to do to assist them. And I'm, you're not alone. I've actually gotten several IMs, instant messages and text messages here on my phone.

42:52

That point on Psalm 90, that really struck a chord with a lot of people. They thought, man, just a simple

43:00

Psalm like Psalm 90 and he's even taken that as a Israel only. And I said, yeah, they have to.

43:08

They don't have any other report. Well, it was so powerful because it was a Psalm by Moses.

43:13

So that automatically gets you back to the Pentateuch. It references the sons of man, the sons of Adam.

43:19

So there's a type of representative headship going on there. And then you see the curse of the fall, right?

43:26

Toiling, right? That's a result of the fall. And it's talking about one's life, physical life. And guess what?

43:32

You're gonna return back to dust. And so you get right into Genesis three. And, you know, what

43:38

I've been absolutely loving just studying and sitting in, Psalm 15 or 1

43:43

Corinthians chapter 15. And so I wanted to kind of piggyback on what you're saying, physical death, how this is demonstrated within the mind of the apostle

43:53

Paul. So in verse 20 of 1 Corinthians 15, he says, but in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead.

43:59

And so we can even pause right there, Dr. Frost and say, okay, what did Jesus's resurrection look like?

44:06

When you go back to the gospel, when you look to the Old Testament of what was prophesied, he was going to be beaten physically, right?

44:13

To the point of death. And then he suffered and died physically on the cross. And then he resurrected bodily.

44:21

And so that's setting the context. I mean, when you follow verse 20 all the way back to verse one, you get the core essentials of the gospel that Jesus died according to the scriptures and that he was raised the third day according to the scriptures.

44:34

And then he's the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. And so Jesus is not the exception, but the rule.

44:41

He's the first fruits of what's to come, right? And of those who have fallen asleep. We're not talking about those that are taking a snooze.

44:48

Remember the disciples got a little confused with that. And Jesus was like, no, Lazarus, he stinketh much.

44:55

He's actually dead. And we're gonna go resurrect him from the dead, baby. So the point is, this is talking about a physical death here in the context.

45:04

And so that sets us up for the next few verses. For as by a man, Adam came death.

45:11

Well, what's the context that the apostle Paul is talking about here? Well, he's talking about biological, physical, actual death.

45:18

And does that carry some type of alienation from God? Absolutely. Man is at enmity with a creator.

45:24

So we're saying that you can't explain away the physical nature of death here, right?

45:33

And so this was kick -started by Adam. For as by a man came death, by another man, a better man,

45:41

Jesus, amen, also comes the resurrection of the dead. And so you know this passage as well as I do, but it's so beautiful,

45:49

Dr. Frost, because the apostle Paul gets into what is promised to believers, that we, one day, will be resurrected like Jesus's resurrection, which was bodily, by the way.

46:02

Well, and he uses the, and I sort of brought this out, but a gegertai, so a gegertai is a perfect form of agero, has been raised, is raised, is still raised.

46:15

So that's - Perfect, is it perfect tense? Yeah, yeah, that's the idea. So not only it, but I got

46:22

William to admit that Jesus is no longer, Jesus of Nazareth is no longer in his body, so he's no longer raised.

46:30

So that which died and was buried is no longer raised. And that's where I drove home the point, even the

46:36

Christology now gets affected, because 70 AD won't allow for Jesus of Nazareth's body and soul to be raised, because if he's raised body and soul and ascended into heaven, body and soul, again, what does that say about the nature?

46:51

That cross. They can't have that. I want to spend a little bit more time talking about this, because once again,

46:57

I have a lot of people saying to me, Jeremiah, you need to be more loving to full preterists in the sense that you shouldn't condemn them in saying that they're outside the faith.

47:06

And one thing I talked to him about is, did not Jesus say, unless you believe that ego

47:12

I me, then you will die in your sin? There's a right Jesus, and there's false Jesuses that the

47:17

Apostle Paul warned us about, I think in 2 Corinthians 11, four, and so there's a standard.

47:23

And so what we see is that Jesus has been raised. Jesus has come in the flesh, for in him, the fullness of the

47:32

Godhead dwells bodily, perfect tense. And so me and you have talked about this,

47:37

I believe you wrote about this in one of your books, but Jesus is currently the

47:42

God man. And so what I tell people is, full preterism says that Jesus cannot be the

47:49

God man as we know it now, when he ascended into heaven. He doesn't have that human nature.

47:55

And so I tell people, that's a different Jesus. That's one who cannot save you and represent you as a perfect high priest.

48:01

So you speak a little bit more to that? It wouldn't, if these guys were around during the time of Apollinaris or Arius, or Sibelius or these guys, they would have been drummed right out of a, because when it is defined in the centuries, the preceding century, first three centuries of who

48:28

Jesus is, he's very man, very God. And what they mean, they define the term.

48:34

If you read Chalcedon and Nicene, they actually define the term of what they mean by human nature, what they mean by that is rational soul and body.

48:47

So that's very, it's defined. So you're touching a, you're having to redefine that Jesus is no longer a human being with his own human soul.

49:00

We're not talking about the Logos. The Logos did not possess a meat sack and was inside of meat sack.

49:08

And that was the act of spirit inside this meat sack that we named Jesus for a while, until he died and then now he's.

49:15

So again, that just would have been destroyed and rightly so.

49:23

So without going into the, you know, my mind is running. So without going into the theology of it, the idea of Jesus' rational soul and body is

49:35

Jesus of Nazareth, a human being, truly man, truly God. Now, I pressed Don Preston on this, and I mentioned this in the debate with William.

49:45

Don Preston believes that Jesus' human nature, his body, it was all dissipated.

49:52

And that whatever Jesus was as a man was absorbed in the Logos of God, the son of God, the second person of the

50:00

Trinity, which they would remain Trinitarian in that regard. So Jesus of Nazareth, the man in the days of his flesh was absorbed in the

50:11

Logos. And so it's not true human nature that's still in existence.

50:17

It's the Logos that has the memory of what it was when the Logos was a man.

50:22

Yeah. That's what, and I thought, well, that's a new one.

50:29

Yeah, I don't know that the first four centuries encountered that definition.

50:35

And if they would, they would have blown it out of the water by the scriptures because it's easy to destroy. But again, why do they do something like that?

50:45

70 AD. There you go. You cannot have resurrection being biological, and you can't have

50:55

Jesus. The emphasis of Jesus is death on the cross. You brought up a great point.

51:00

Was that biological or is it spiritual death? So John Preston says

51:06

Jesus died two deaths. So I have another question. So in 1 Corinthians 15, when the apostle

51:13

Paul says, I tell you this brothers, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

51:19

Are they trying to interpret this in such a way? Well, Jesus can't be human because he would have flesh and blood.

51:26

Now, I think there's other things attached to 70 AD like we're talking about, but they're having to interpret verses like this in such a way of saying

51:35

Jesus can't have a humanity, a body as we know it when he resurrected.

51:42

Am I in the ballpark at all? Yeah, and this is why when we die physically and shut off this meat sack, which is all that it is, then we're in the full glories of heaven.

51:55

And that's so obviously, from that regard, flesh and blood will never have any inheritance in the kingdom of God or dying and going to heaven.

52:03

Dying and going to heaven is their gospel message. The result of believing within Jesus, the reward that you get is when you shed your monkey suit, you get to go to heaven.

52:18

And that's it. Now, Don Preston and them, they're a minority in my understanding of the full preterist because a large majority of the full preterist are universalist, right?

52:31

So there's no more gospel proclamation. The Great Commission's fulfilled.

52:37

Guess when, Dr. Frost? 70 AD, that was hard to figure out. But Israel only.

52:43

There's another little faction group that's going on there. Now, you do have people like Ed Stevens that solve the problems.

52:51

And so they came up with this individual body at death. You get a new body. When you die and go to heaven, you get a body.

53:00

It's not about a corporate body. It's about the individual body. So you have these divisions going on in full preterism already.

53:06

They're already tangling over this stuff because not everybody is a corporate body person.

53:16

So as we begin to wind down. The big Max King, William Bell, they've been around for a long time, over three,

53:25

Max King over four or five decades, so. Dr. Frost, as we begin to wind down, when, so we're talking about, we're talking about William Bell and some of these guys that talk about this corporate body view.

53:38

So I don't know if you could tell us kind of briefly in 1 Corinthians 15, how do they, I know

53:43

William Bell was talking about this in the debate a little bit, but if you could kind of recap, how do they try to make that argument in 1

53:50

Corinthians 15? I mean, it's so clear that when you see those who have fallen asleep, those that have died,

53:59

Adam, out of the sin of Adam comes forth death. And when Jesus at the parricia, at the end, will defeat the last enemy, death, how do they try to redefine all these things into talking about some corporate view is what the resurrection is really gonna be like?

54:19

Briefly, as I wrote in my book, The Fourth Letterist, that Don Preston still publishes.

54:27

Yeah. The exegetical essays on the resurrection. So very briefly, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

54:36

So some among the Corinthians were saying that there is no resurrection of the dead. Who are the dead?

54:45

Old Covenant, they are there because they would have regarded themselves as alive in Christ.

54:54

So they have the first fruits of the spirit. They're alive in Christ, in the body of Christ. So those that are receiving

55:00

Christ are being brought into through the body of Adam into the body of Christ. Well, what do you do with about all these dead ones who are actually dead, like Moses and Daniel and Isaiah?

55:11

These Israelites that are dead. How are they going to get into the body of Christ since they died before Christ arrived?

55:19

So there's where you start getting into that. Yeah. That kind of question.

55:26

Not that anyone would ever think about asking that kind of question. Yeah. Because the dead are the dead.

55:36

It just, it doesn't make sense. Paul never spells this out. So it's resurrection of the dead.

55:43

So he gives no, Paul doesn't give a definition of who the dead ones, plural, are.

55:52

And so we just say, well, he's referring to the dead, people that have died, fallen asleep, people that's died.

56:02

That's who he's talking about. Well, this is Jesus who died, was buried.

56:09

So Jesus is my only example. That's the key. Somebody raised from the dead in this whole chapter.

56:15

So I, so the dead, so yeah, the dead. But who did Jesus die for? He died for Israel.

56:23

He's Israel's Messiah. He died for, you see how, that's where it goes. Well, thank you for recapping that briefly.

56:31

Just because I wanted people to be aware of the arguments that are floating out there, but context kills all that.

56:38

The whole argument that Paul is building on is one of the gospel, and he points to Jesus who died physically, that was prophesied according to the scriptures, and that he raised the third day physically, bodily, according to the scriptures.

56:52

And that's meaningful, because our resurrection will be like his. And we don't have enough time this evening, but then he goes on to say, and then comes the end, at the parrhesia, the resurrection of the dead, all who are

57:03

Christ. And I'm just like, that is so beautiful, because the main timing indicator is when

57:09

Jesus returns at his coming, he is going to put to death the last enemy, death.

57:15

There's gonna be no more death. And so when you look around and you see wars, when you see evils, and you see death, this is a sign that Jesus has not come.

57:25

He has not returned to restore all things. And so for me, I just tell people, yeah, when you hear them talking about the timing indicators of 7

57:32

AD, we can point back to Paul and say, better timing indicator. There's still death in this world.

57:38

I'm currently looking at this the last two weeks of what is going on in Maui, in Long Island there.

57:48

And there's still 1 ,000 missing there. So the death toll could be up to well over 1 ,200, 1 ,300 deaths in a whole,

57:58

I couldn't imagine going out that way. But we grieve over this because it's senseless.

58:10

These people's lives just burned up and died. And that will never be rectified.

58:16

See, resurrection is going to rectify everything. Restoration is going to rectify every tragedy and every evil that we see will be brought into full constitution and reconciliation and justice.

58:29

The wicked will receive and every measure of sin that is deserved will be in full recompense to the satisfaction of the justice of God and to the satisfaction of the justice of the righteous of God who see this and have this understanding.

58:48

So we will say with every, you know, what about the little girl in human trafficking and just, you know, things that we can't speak of, but, you know,

58:57

I don't want those images in my mind. Those things are going to be satisfied to the full justice of the righteous and of God where we will see the whole aspect where the fullness of justice.

59:12

But in the full prayerist world, that never happens. There's no justice, there's no any of that kind of stuff because it doesn't have anything to do with that.

59:23

What you just said, you know, talking about the resurrection of the dead entails the justice of God. I remember in Acts 17 where Paul famously preached at the

59:32

Areopagus, he talked about the resurrection of the dead, which is the time that God has appointed a person,

59:37

Jesus, to judge, right? And if you remember - Through a man. Through a man.

59:44

Yes, that's important because he's the God man, right? And when you go back and look at that passage, there were many that mocked the resurrection.

59:54

And when you look at this bigger context, this is Epicurean philosophy that did not believe that you're gonna be judged in this life or in a life to come.

01:00:02

So eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow you die. For Greek thinking, why in the world, you're in heavenly bliss, why in the world would you want your meat sack back?

01:00:15

Well, in Greek, not all, but many sophisticated philosophies running around during that time.

01:00:24

The idea of going to be with God, the great being in heaven, and then having to come back and get your flesh suit, you know, the whole point was to escape the flesh, to break free from the prison house of flesh.

01:00:44

And so why in the world would you want to go back and get that back again and re - Dr. Frost, that sounds like full preterism.

01:00:55

They actually, I've heard them say that to me. What are we gonna need? We're in heaven.

01:01:01

What are we, and I'm like, that's, no, it's not full -blown second century

01:01:06

Gnosticism that these guys are preaching today. They don't believe in the duality of good and evil and all that kind of stuff.

01:01:13

The Demiurge, and you know, Don Preston doesn't believe in the Demiurge, so. Right, we're just saying there's shared principles that are undeniable.

01:01:21

It's Neo -Gnosticism. Yeah. It's a form of Gnosticism. That's right. Dr. Frost, I just want to encourage people to go check out your debate that you had last week with William Bell.

01:01:34

It was awesome. I mean - Donny Pierski guy is becoming a star here. Hey, Donny, you're my boy.

01:01:41

We gotta fly him into the United States. We gotta show him how we do down here in the

01:01:47

States. I just wanna encourage everybody to go check out the debate. Very cordial, very respectful.

01:01:53

There was some sparks, Dr. Frost, a few times, but that's what makes the debate so entertaining, as we get to learn and we get to see a little -

01:02:00

I'm an animated person. I get animated when I speak, because I, you know, it's, I get, it's, this stuff is,

01:02:07

I take personal, so it's, it's, you know, I get, I believe in it.

01:02:13

You're speaking to somebody that understands the debate life, and I just try to tell people that, look,

01:02:18

Paul, when he, in Acts, he debated the Judaizers over no small issue.

01:02:25

He contended for the faith with love, and so there's a time and place.

01:02:32

Well, let's talk about whether or not Jesus is the Messiah. I believe that he is, and you

01:02:39

Jews don't, so let's talk about this. I think Paul is a

01:02:44

Jew, he's animated, he's cursed. Oh, you know it. He's going at it, pounding on the scroll, and saying, this is what it says.

01:02:56

Also, one last thing is, I want to remind people that Dr. Frost and I are going to be teaming up come

01:03:02

February, we're going to be talking, we're, I got to, I got to go first, so I don't have to follow up your, your lecture, but we're probably going to talk about the resurrection of the dead and the parrhesia, and how this is a part of our blessed hope, and how that's a non -negotiable, when we're talking about the gospel of grace, that Jesus promised those who put their faith in him, and so if you're in the

01:03:27

Tennessee area, look up Jeffrey Rice, because we're going to be going to his neck of the woods, and so I can't wait for that,

01:03:35

Dr. Frost, and hopefully, pretty soon, this isn't a sure thing, but hopefully we get to go on Cultish soon and talk about the dangers of full preterism.

01:03:44

Yeah, yeah, keep me abreast of that, that's, that sounds exciting, definitely, you know.

01:03:50

You already know. Well, Dr. Frost, thank you so much for coming back on to The Apologetic Dog, I got to have you back on soon, so this is, this has been fun.

01:03:58

Anytime you want. All right, brother, take care, thanks again. You too, thank you.

01:04:05

Well, thank you so much for tuning in to The Apologetic Dog, just want to remind everybody that the gospel matters, and so that's why we take time to talk about heresy, and so we don't do it out of meanness, but if Jesus said that you must believe that ego

01:04:22

I me, I am, and he said this as the God -man, then it matters who the right

01:04:27

Jesus is. Full preterism doesn't believe that Jesus is the God -man currently. They also do not believe that there is going to be a future second coming, and we will not be resurrected to be with him for all eternity when he restores all things, so these things are very important.

01:04:43

And so lastly here, just want to remind everybody that I'll be speaking at a conference in just a few weeks on, the conference topic is

01:04:53

How Then Shall We Live, and I get the honor and privilege to talk about the resurrection of the dead.

01:04:59

Just want to encourage everybody to please like and subscribe and share the content of The Apologetic Dog, because it helps the ministry circulate to people throughout

01:05:10

YouTube and elsewhere, and so if you would like to continue to support The Apologetic Dog, you can go to my website, theapologeticdog .com,

01:05:18

where I have a Patreon, and I have a handful of supporters already, and it's so exciting because I would love to be able to do this full -time one day, but in God's timing, and so until then, just want to thank you so much for tuning in.