Reformed Theology (Part 3)

Equal Scales and Fairness in Debate

This week I had an opportunity to listen To dr. White give a very powerful Lecture I guess is the only way to describe it. It wasn't really a sermon. It was actually is on his show. So I guess you could say it's a podcast but on the subject of really understanding your Opponents in debate and really understanding what the other person is saying too often we are very quick to ascribe to someone Motivations or Thoughts or ideas and it usually comes across and like this.

Well, you believe this when they have not said that's what they believe nor that they have Pronounced that belief, but we assume upon them belief and the subject he was addressing was as long. How quick we are to simply say well as a Muslim you believe this when he made the point there is no monolithic Islam just like there's no monolithic Christianity, you know, there's there if someone says I'm a Christian don't we have to qualify that?

Well, are you are you Roman Catholic? Are you Protestant among Protestants? Are you liberal? Are you? Conservative and among that are you fundamentalist or are you? Someone who would consider yourself to be somewhat not a fundamentalist, you know I don't we have to make distinctions and and if we're going to be able to make distinctions Isn't it fair that we would do the same with other people, you know?

And and and so the only reason why I bring that up is to introduce the class today is Because when it comes to reform theology as we've been dealing with the last two weeks and today will be hopefully our last Week if we can make it through the through the last few sentences on our worksheet here is that There is no monolithic Reform theology the capital are reformed that I talked about in our first lesson.

That which makes its home in Presbyterianism even Presbyterianism is fragmented. A PC USA liberal Would call himself a Presbyterian and though you shake your head. I don't we we know. That's what they call themselves.

An OPC person would say PCA is not enough. OPC is Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and then they look at the Presbyterian Church of America's as ones who have made too many concessions right. So we need to be honest and.

And we need to Listen as the Bible says be quick to listen and slow to speak. We need to listen to what people are saying. We need to understand why people believe what they believe and what are we saying when we say reformed as I said from the beginning.

We are little are reformed in the grand scheme of things at least our churches little are in the sense that we are not. We don't hold to all the teachings of John Calvin. We wouldn't refer to ourselves specifically as hard Calvinists or ardent Calvinists.

Though we would say that we share much in common with his view of salvation even then there are differences in how we would understand the working out of that salvation and the Practicing of the ordinances and the ministry of the church and how the church is to function in the world.

So we need to be honest and fair and open and that's just again sort of my Hearing that hearing that podcast and if you'd like to hear it, I'll send you a copy of it. It really is just just was a good reminder.

Equal Standards for Critiquing Others and Ourselves

Equal scales is Something the Bible demands of us. What is equal scales means if you want something For you you be willing to give that to someone else you be Equal in how you handle and deal with people and so often we want to have the ability to to point our fingers at others.

And not realize that the same thing applies to us for instance another group that's very popular and Not not popular, but they want ones that tend to argue a lot of the King James only lists the King James only is apply certain Critiques to the newer translations the NIV the NASB the ESV they apply critiques to the newer translations that can be used against the King James.

The same critical analysis that they use against these newer translations can be used against the King James. But they will not use them against the King James. They only use them against their opponents and if your critique doesn't work against your own system for instance when we say something about Islam being willing to fight for their fight for their faith and We condemn them for all of that.

Then we go back to the Old Testament. We see all these wars that God Called the people of Israel to fight and we say oh wait. Oh now we have to now we have to we have to harmonize that don't we? You say well, they're different than us.

Yes, but why and in what way? Are we using equal scales? Are we being honest? I'm no apologist for Islam. You know that I'm no apologist for PC USA. I'm no apologist for the Mormons. I'm no apologist for the Jehovah Witnesses.

I'm no apologist for the Roman Catholics, but do we apply the same standard to them? That we also apply to ourselves and if not Are we being honest? Yes.

If somebody if somebody Claims to know the Lord there are certain Standards. Not they're not gonna be in lockstep with everything, but there are certain standards, but like Muslims there That's a whole different belief system a whole different worldview.

I.

Understand but what what I'm saying is are we applying the same standards to them that we apply to ourselves or are we applying to? Ourselves the same standards that we apply to them. Okay. Let's say I didn't want this to be about Islam.

That's okay. I didn't come here to make this about as long. Didn't have to if a person tells you that I'm an Islamic. But I'm not a terrorist. Can you believe them? Yes. You might not think you can but there are Muslims that are not there.

There are some I know that are some that aren't. Whether I believe that person's telling me the truth because okay. See you've already you've already given into the idea that they can't be. Uh-uh no I believe they can be but I don't know if they are.

Okay, I'm not asking you to know that they are right. My point is that dr. White was making and I'm not here to apologize for him or for anyone else. I'm here to simply make the point that when we're talking about reform theology or anything else.

We need to be using equal scales. We need to be applying the same standards and just like somebody who comes to you and says you're a Christian. You must believe that Jesus's body is in that bread because that's what Christians believe.

Right. That's unfair isn't it right? Thank you. That's all I wanted to say. Years. Do you realize that Isis kills more Muslims than they do Christians. Yes. Then be honest. That's all I'm asking. And how am I applying this to what we're talking about today?

It's because and I appreciate you saying that brother. Because we whatever the subject matter. It just really struck my heart, and I was listening to this on the ride in this Mars. I've been listening to it all week.

There's a long podcast like hour and a half so I listen to bits and pieces of time. Just the reminder of equal scales the fairness of Christianity. We like you said are followers of Christ. We should be better than the world not worse.

We should apply truth and We're to love them even if there are enemies. Well, that's true, too. That's true, too, and then that and that and that goes that's the other thing he mentioned. Are we praying for their conversion or not?

Are we do we care that they be converted? I know that we have prayed God you know convert them or stop them and because we don't want to see more death. We don't want to see more destruction. We don't want to see more mayhem, but what is the the yearning of our soul?

How many is there a Saul of Tarsus in Isis right now? We don't know so we pray for Saul of Tarsus to work be risen up out of that. He was a terrorist, too so you know I Want to finish up this lesson. We are on salvation today.

Salvation, Election, and the Work of the Spirit

If you don't have the worksheet. I don't. I'm sorry. I didn't bring copies. This has been a rough morning. If you look on with someone else. You have a copy there on salvation. It says Something that that people find very repugnant, and this is actually part of my sermon this morning.

Because I'm preaching on the love of God, and I am preaching on a very unpopular Aspect of the love of God this morning. I'm preaching on the distinctions in the love of God. People don't want God to make distinctions.

They want God to be demanded of he must do it this way, and if he does it any other way. Then it's not what I think God should be. And that's why when you first start talking about reformed theology just about anybody.

What do they say I? Don't think God is like that. Hmm. I don't like God being that way. And then you say what apply equal standards. Because this is what they'll say. They'll say I don't. I don't believe in a God who would create people just to go to hell.

Do you believe that God knew who was going to believe and who wouldn't. Well yes? I believe that so you believe God created people knowing they would go to hell same standard. You are not applying equal scales.

You see well he gave him a choice choice or not he knew. And if he knew for certain. Which you're the only? Consistent Arminian is the open theist because they have to at least believe in some way God doesn't know.

If they were to make the argument. That he didn't create people. Knowing they would go to hell, and then he's not God and then the whole it spirals out of control again. This is equal scales. Equal scales, okay, God in eternity past chose a Number of fallen creatures to be reconciled to himself in time.

Christ came to save the chosen the Holy Spirit. Enlightens the elect one so that they can believe the gospel and receive salvation. The elect can never resist the work of the Spirit nor fall away receiving after receiving salvation.

Salvation can be summarized by the five points of Calvinism. Total depravity. Unconditional election limited atonement irresistible grace and the perseverance of the Saints. I have only one issue with this statement.

It says the elect can never resist the work of the Spirit. I don't think that that's true. I don't think I think the better word is ultimately The elect can it's not that they can never resist the work of the Spirit.

They cannot ultimately resist. Yeah, exactly. We always resist the Spirit and even as saved people doesn't the Jesus or Paul commend us. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit and that what the Bible says. So, I mean, I just don't again.

I this book isn't scripture. It's a it's a teaching text. So if you want, you know, you make a little note there. I don't think the word never. I think the word ultimately is the better expression of what and as a reformed theologian I can make the critique and be fair as to what we would teach.

I don't know a man who's never resisted. Exactly we'd be and we'd automatically From the womb be saved we. I resisted the Spirit for 19 years in the sense that I heard the gospel Several times in that 19 years.

I remember going to a church one time. It was a little assemblies of God Church. And I was in the youth group and I was sitting there. I was Dating a young lady and she went to that church and she invited me to go with her and Really?

It was the first time I had ever been a part of a big youth group culture because church I grew up and had like six kids. I mean I was one of you know, just a few Kids, but this had a huge youth group and had a band and it was like he was really neat.

I never seen anything like this and and so I sat down and the guy is preaching and I'm not listening him. I'm thinking about this girl that I'm with, you know. And you know, that's I was there because of her it certainly wasn't there because yeah, yeah I was.

I was very pleased with you know, what was happening in my life. I had a date at church but As it was happening he said bow your head and close your eyes and He said if you died tonight and you don't know if you're going to go to heaven raise your hand.

I threw my hand up and then I looked and nobody else's. And of course he comes and sits next to me and now everybody I'm looking at me. And I of course I being the ignorant I was I said nobody can know if they're going to heaven.

That's not knowledge. God gives us. I made this this Philosophical argument from ignorance because I didn't know nothing. I'd grown up in church, but I haven't been listening. I didn't care about the spirit.

I've been resisting the spirit for 19 years. You know, so I just. Well, well, yeah, but I did I Handwritten right up then. I realized I was the only one and right back down. I Thought everybody would do that.

I could my philosophy at the time was more Dualistic it was sort of more almost Eastern kind of philosophy. You know, I'd spent some time in the martial arts. I've been around people who had really different philosophies than I did.

So. But again resisting the spirit so much for that date. Well, she is not my wife. Actually, he didn't go far after that at all. I don't think her mother was real pleased with my response because after I was ardent on the whole way home I argued with her mother.

Well, yeah, and then I argue with my stepmom when I got home you can't know but that's ignorance demonstrating itself as Resistance, you know, that's what it was. So is there you know, I know there's questions about salvation that I'm sure some of you have.

But in regard to this what is written here, is there anything about this that you would say? Hey, I don't really understand why he says it that way or can you explain something before we move to the last part?

Which is on the church? You guys have been around this stuff for a while a lot of you so you might not have any questions. You might know more than I do. That's great. Okay. Well, I'm gonna move on then to the last block and then next week we do Arminianism.

That's I'm so excited Arminian and Wesleyan theology, which are very similar. Wesleyanism is an outgrowth of Arminianism. So we'll maybe do both of those in conjunction. All right, so the last unreformed theology is the view of the church.

The Church, Baptism, and Covenant Membership

The church is composed of God's elect. Who have received salvation they are bound by God's covenant to serve him in the world. Baptism symbolizes every Our excuse me entry into the covenant body for both children and adults through though either can renounce their baptism.

When the believers partake in the Lord's Supper in faith the Holy Spirit works in them to make them spiritual participants. Generally the elders elected by the church teach and oversee the local body.

The unity of church must be grounded in Doctrinal agreement. Well, let me just quickly make a few comments on. What you have a question. No, the argument is because in the typical reformed churches there's infant baptism.

Okay, so a person as when they come to a point where they should be expressing faith. An age where they can express faith at that point. They can renounce their. I don't know that they ever rebaptized.

I know some people like dr. Sproul will not rebaptize a person like you. Okay, if somebody came to you and said I was baptized an infant I don't believe that that's the way it should be now. That's I would well if a person comes here.

We we require baptism for membership if a person's never been immersed. Yes, you don't consider it a rebaptize. No, I don't consider it wasn't being baptized in the first absolutely. Yeah, as far as I'm concerned.

Renouncing their baptism, that means they're falling away from the faith. Well, see this is the issue and this is. I know some of you have Presbyterian background. So I want to be very fair again equal scales.

But here's the issue that I have and and I'll be very very quick because I know time. You have the universal Church and. Then you have the local church. Okay. The universal Church includes everybody who is a member of the church, okay.

The universal Church includes everybody who is a member of the body of Christ. Now this circle should there should be more overlap. Trust me. This is the this Is the is the part that of the universal church that's in the local church.

That should be bigger and this should be smaller actually because more universal members should be apart. But just forget my lack of good drawing. The local body is made up of believers non-believers.

Do you agree? Yes, okay. That is compounded in Presbyterianism and other forms that practice infant baptism. Because Infants are baptized into the Covenant and thus become part of the church. Through baptism and thus this expands because they're not saved.

That's I think that's part of the problem again Covenant the question is I've had conversations with somebody on this. The question is who is a member of the Covenant? Baptists believe that only a person who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ is a member of the new covenant.

Presbyterians believe that a member of the new covenant is the person and their children. So the children are part of the covenant. I do not believe that I do not believe that a child who has not come to faith is a member of the new covenant.

That's the divide that is the dividing line. Who is a member of the new covenant why is it a new covenant? Because it is not one based on familial solidarity. It is one based on faith. That's the difference as far as I'm concerned.

And this is why We would say yes, even in our church, there are believers and unbelievers. But we do not baptize someone who has not at least confirmed Upon themselves this statement of faith not confirmed as bad example of bad use of language.

They have not made a profession of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. They're not baptized. They have not repented. So the idea is who who is this group? Well in the Baptist Church in our church the people in this group are people who are false professors and Thus these people would be in sin, but in a Presbyterian Church the people in this group make up false professors and children of Professing believers.

Am I being honest? Am I being fair? If I'm not using equal scales tell me because that's it that's all the. I'm not condemning it. I'm saying that's the issue for me. The issue for me is whether or not my child is a member of the new covenant.

And of course acts 2 does say, you know, this promise that promise being baptism is for you and your children. But it also says and for all those who are far off. The reference there is not that I'm to baptize my children.

But the reference is that this promise is not for a singular generation and not for a single community. But it's for you and for your children and for all who are far off this promise extends beyond Jerusalem and beyond your generation so the argument among Baptists is That the Reformation Stopped too soon.

I have a book on my desk called who are the who are the true members of the Covenant? It's a good explanation of the position that I would hold That the members of the new covenant are members of a new covenant by faith and not by birth.

You were born into the first covenant. You were born again into the new covenant. Okay, so that is our position. I think it's simple. I Of course believe that there are men that I respect and I've had preached from my pulpit that would disagree with this.

And so I certainly do not consider it to be Something that is a dividing line but as a church we stand on a principle and we stand on a truth and Has to be understood. Are there questions about that? Okay.

How about Let's go back up the list the church is composed of God's elect who received salvation. Well, again, I would argue that's not true because the church is made up of covenant members, but That again is what it's saying is I think that that first line means the universal church or the invisible church.

The invisible church is God's elect only. That's another way of saying this the invisible invisible the universal the local. Remember what we talked about a few weeks ago in the time of Luther and Calvin and others being baptized into the church was a form of citizenship and There was a connection between you being a citizen and being a member of the church.

And that's another reason why I fit baptism was held the way that it was Was because it was part of your citizenry Again. But even Calvin recognized the invisible in the visible church. Even he I mean it was his point.

That the invisible church is made up of believers all around the world when you gather together today to commune Together as the body of Christ when you gather together today to sing songs to pray to take communion and do all these things.

You're doing that in concert with believers all over the world. Guess what some of those believers believe a little different than you. Shocking. I know right some of them. Maybe even have a different view of some pretty Important things years ago.

I did a I Did a survey. For the youth group that's how many years ago. It was that I was the youth leader here from 2000 Till 2004 ish. It was sort of a hard knowing where I transitioned into being the associate pastor.

And then the pastor is it sort of just sort of evolved. I know what I took over as pastor in January of 2006 because this January is my 10-year anniversary. But before that it sort of evolved and I remember I wrote a list of doctrines.

And I gave them to the youth it was maybe 20 kids. And I said I want you to write on here whether or not. Something is essential to be a Christian or not. And let me tell you something we talked for hours.

This was at camp when kids are usually throwing mud pies and swimming in the pool and having fun. We spent like three hours in an upper room. It wasn't like the upper it was in. It was a room above the the building.

It was nice and cool. As we sat for like three hours and Discussed every line and it was like 30 or 40 doctrines. Why am I not is it? I don't know if I have it anymore. I gotta see if I can find it. But I had that list and we went through every line and asked the question Is it essential for somebody to be a Christian for instance?

Can somebody be a Christian and believe they can speak in tongues? Sure. Yes. Sure. Absolutely. Do I believe that we should be speaking in tongues in the church today? No. But does that mean that I'm gonna say that that person can't be a Christian because they believe in the continuation of the sign gifts.

No. Now some of you may take that hard line. I would disagree with you, but that's okay. But here's the thing We need to be able To measure everything equal scales, right? That's been my thing this morning, but also be be, you know fair.

There are Christians who do things differently than we do. I Have a friend. I know He loves Christ and I know he desires to follow after Christ. He and I disagree on several things. I wouldn't say there's anything of essentials that we disagree on.

But we do disagree on a lot of non essentials and so we have to ask the question of I Don't know if you remember Augustine's maxim and essentials unity and non essentials what? Liberty but in all things Charity are we charitable with our Christian brothers and sisters?

I Think we should be. I think we should stand on what we believe. I think we should be firm in what we believe that I don't that I don't back down. But I also don't go in kicking people in the teeth either.

I Try to express other people's opinions as fairly as I can even if I disagree. Be honest, even if I disagree so this is why they believe this and. And. Yeah, and and and I've had you know, I've had that conversation come up before whether or not I think that Church of Christ is is Denying the gospel because of their addition of the work.

It's hard for me to say that for all of them right because I don't think that all of them are. But it is it is that that's the line though yeah, is are they adding a work to the gospel and if so, are they denying the gospel and you know, it's it's it's a definite difficult subject and but that's why I say I think that we Would y 'all ever want to cut if I got a copy with y 'all ever want to talk?

That was a three-year conversation. Yeah, once we get through this book that we're doing. Well, yeah for sure. Well, I'll see if I can I'll see if I can find it I would be happy to look for it doesn't have the time.

I think we're out 15. My fear in the churches of Christ is by adding Baptism as a necessary work not as something that we should do and that's where I think you have to depending on who you talk to because the argument of the the guys who founded the Historic Church of Christ, which are Barton Stone Alexander Campbell and Sir Walter Scott.

I was like a Willard Scott today. He's a hundred years old. Those Three men that came together they believed they were restoring the ancient gospel. But what was the ancient gospel to them that you must be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ to be saved?

Wasn't just it was it was almost a Elimination of the Trinitarian formula where it became just the name of Jesus Christ and it also became a a focal point whereby if you came and you had never been immersed for The remission of your sins even if you come from a Baptist Church if you've not been immersed for the remission of your sins.

It wasn't in the name of Jesus. They had to say the name of Jesus had to say the name of Jesus. Yes. Well That's Jesus only Jesus only that's different. It's different. I know. There are similarities the Jesus only movement is different.

And that's the thing with Church Christ you'll find Trinitarians non-trinitarians in Church Christ and again I think I think the Trinity is essential doctrine. So that's it. That's that's another place where some of the guys in Church of Christ.

I've had odds. I've thought about having a debate With it with the Church of Christ Pastors I like to do debates. I have only done one but I'd love to do more. I just just I want to do it with somebody that I can trust and The last one we did didn't go very well in a lot of ways.

Because the man I wanted him to really present the historic Presbyterian position and he had a more of an Episcopalian background. He didn't really present the Presbyterian position the way that I wanted it to be presented and that's not to condemn him.

I think he did his best. But if I ever did that again, it would be with someone that I know could present the historic Presbyterian position. But that being said Again and again equal scales got to be fair if he didn't do that.

I can't say that he did, you know. Present the historic Presbyterian position. He didn't I did during the debate. I sent it I said this is what he believed this is what they believe. I remember I sort of came to his defense at one point.

Anyhow, I love you guys. I hope you know that. I hope you know that I'm sorry for being late today. All right, god bless y 'all.