Rosaria Butterfield on 5 Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age

Hello, everyone. Welcome once again to another edition of the Conversations That Matter podcast. Appreciate everyone tuning in, and we have a wonderful episode.

We have Rosaria Butterfield with us. Hey, Rosaria. How are you doing? Hey, John. Nice to see you.

Good to see you. I know you've been on the podcast at least once before, and you are, of course, a wife, mother, author, a pastor's wife.

You live in Durham, North Carolina, close to where I used to live, and you were a professor of English and Women's Studies at Syracuse University.

You've written this book, Five Lies of Our Anti -Christian Age, and I guess the first question

I have for you on that is, the question every author wants first, is why did you write the book?

Right? Right, because I couldn't get anybody else to, because that's not a good answer. No, I wrote the book because in the last, really our post -Obergefell world, but it really has been taking up shape in the last, since 2019,

I'd say is when it really hit. Lots of questions from moms and grandmas specifically about what's going on in the church.

We expect pushback from the world, but why are we divided in the church? Why am I all of a sudden a bigot?

Why if I go to my small group and I say, please pray for my sister who identifies as a lesbian, they say, that sounds homophobic.

What happened? And so in meeting with women and talking with women and just sort of thinking about it myself,

I came up with three reasons and five lies. Three reasons why, if Christ is not divided, why are we?

It's a basic faith and reason question. So I just sat to write a book for faithful Christian moms and grandmas.

So my audience is not, it is not an apologetics, it is not a polemical, although some people would definitely think it is because it has an edge.

It was just my best attempt at a faith and reason question. If Christ is not divided, why are we and what do we do?

So came up with three reasons and five lies. So three reasons that produce these five lies and the challenges that these five lies, there are three challenges.

One is I used to believe all of these five lies. So I totally understand how sneaky they are. And then to make it worse,

I even believed some of them as a Christian. So I totally understand how they sneak into the church, but they are anti -Christian.

There is no gospel in them and they can't be, we can't have a soft presence in relationship to them.

They have to be dealt with as the sin that they are. And so I'm hoping that I can equip

Christian moms and grandmas and the people in their life who are shepherding them to grow in sanctification and let their faith fail, if not, as we pursue the hard course these days.

Well, I certainly think it hits the mark if that's what you're attempting to do. And I want to get into some of these lies and reasons, but you include some biographical content.

And I want to start off with who you were pre -Christian. You were a professor of English and Women's Studies at Syracuse University.

You were tenured there. And I would say from a worldly academic standpoint, you were on a good track to keep maintaining and keep,

I guess, leveling up. I don't know if there would have been opportunities to go to more prestigious universities, but certainly to write books and gain the acclaim of the world.

You were in a lesbian relationship. You were really, I guess, the model woman in the minds of many feminists, right?

You were living that life to a T. Yeah. And now you're not. So you talk about your conversion.

You talk about Kent and really the love story. That actually fascinates me. And I want you to talk about that because he reached out to you when you were still in that state.

What happened? What were the steps that took you from that world to the life that you have now? Right, right.

So Ken Smith, the pastor, reached out to me when I was a lesbian. My husband's name is

Kent. And by the time... I just missed it. Sorry. That's okay. It's so hard. It's so hard. I don't know. The men in my life all have the name.

That sounds the same. But yes, yes. So I was a lesbian and a feminist and a professor.

And I wasn't just the lesbian next door who sells all -state insurance.

I spoke before the New York legislature. I wrote policy. I believed what

I believed. And after my tenure book was written, I was working on a new book, basically just trying to figure out why people like you didn't like people like me.

And specifically, I just wanted to know why Christians would not leave consenting adults alone.

Now, you haven't heard that expression in quite some time. No. So, you know. So that...

And there's a reason for that. And we can get to it, I hope, when we talk about Obergefell. And during that time, a pastor, who was also a neighbor, reached out to me.

And in the book, I talk about how he ministered to me. He made it very clear that he could accept me, but he didn't approve of me.

And that was fine. And we can think about whether that would be acceptable in a post -Obergefell world.

I don't know. But, you know, I probably had 500 meals at his house.

And I read through the Bible seven times under his tutelage. And after two years of that,

I just came to the absolute conviction that I was in very big trouble.

That my soul was in very big trouble. And that the Lord Jesus Christ was exactly who he said he was.

That he is risen. He is alive. And that that would be true, whether I believed it or not.

And so I committed my life to Jesus, and the church welcomed me.

And I started being discipled by Floyd, Ken's wife, and specifically on the subject of godly womanhood.

And the idea very much was that I would change. The idea was that I would, as a born -again

Christian, live in the liberty of Christ. And so obviously when I was first converted, my fairly persistent lesbian feelings did not go away right away.

But they did. I mean, you know, it was not a kind of a magic bullet or something.

But part of the impetus for writing this book is as someone who comes out of just decades of sexual sin,

I don't want to toy with this stuff anymore. And I don't want to pretend that everything is fine. I still have, you know, wake up in the middle of the night needing to repent of a sin

I had forgotten to repent of from my past. It's very serious. Sexual sin is a very serious thing.

And so my own, you know, if I sound kind of alarmist in the book, it's not anger.

It's an older woman speaking to other women, basically saying, don't be me.

And therefore, don't be so smitten by the lies that the world teaches you.

So what I did in Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert, I say I lost everything but the dog.

That's kind of true. I mean, I didn't actually lose my job. But I, you know, life got really hard when

I became a Christian. And my pastor and my elders and my friends at church were just, they just took me in and they took care of me.

And it was a very dear and painful time. I would not want to relive that at all.

Yeah, well, let's talk about Ken a little bit, Pastor Ken, and then Ken to your husband. So Pastor Ken comes and gives a presentation in your classes.

Was it in your class or was it in the college? You listened to it, though. Well, actually, it was at my dining room table.

Oh, so, okay. Yeah, because he wanted to. He wanted to give this presentation to my class.

I directed the English and Textual Studies program, which was the undergraduate.

You were taking notes, though, lividly. You write about this. Oh, yeah. You hadn't read the

Bible, but he had. And he's telling you things that you haven't been exposed to yet.

What, in that moment, I know you give some of your thoughts in the book, I guess at the dining room table there.

What went through your head as far as, like, was that the moment you became, you were livid, but did you become curious in that moment that he had something that you wanted?

Well, what I became curious about was, I mean, so I was working on this book project on the religious right.

And I really wanted to know what these people believed. And so when I'm writing a book and I'm trying to listen to people,

I try to listen from the point of view that's not me. And as I was listening from his point of view,

I kept thinking, if only I believed this, my life would be, like, this would be amazing. If this is true, this would be amazing.

But, you know, the if was a big capital if. If, can't be, you know. And that was a very disarming, because I wasn't expecting to feel that way.

I was expecting for him to give a bunch of dumb arguments and for me to feel quite equipped to topple them all down.

And that was not the case. In fact, what he gave was what's called a metanarrative. He gave a story of the whole world that was so different from my story, and so different from my postmodern story.

And it was compelling. It wasn't, I don't know, it wasn't tyrannical or frightening.

It was, I mean, at the end, I did have this question, like, how in the world would this be good news for me?

But I did understand how it would be good news for most people. And so that was very, very disarming.

What was it about? And I know there's more that we need to get to, but I was intrigued by that section, I suppose, because we all want to be like Pastor Ken, in a way.

We want, we all have neighbors. In fact, I just had a neighbor today, I was driving down the street, and he flagged me down and stopped me.

And I got to know his name, and he was farther down the street than myself. But I, you know, my next thought was, how do

I get the gospel to this guy, right? Not because I want to, you know, take a notch, you know, and put it on my belt or something, but because, like,

I immediately had a care for him. And so what was it about Pastor Ken?

Like, did he, was it just the power of the message? Or was there something about him that you found attractive?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we had met, we had met many times before. And in fact, he had reached out to me after I had written a pretty hateful article in the newspaper.

And he, you know, he just wanted, he just said, I think you're wrong. And I wonder if we could talk.

And I thought, well, I'd love to talk because you might be my unpaid research assistant for this book project.

So of course, I'd love to talk to you. And he and his wife are just, you know, charming and kind and, but super smart.

Like, it wasn't what I was expecting. And so by the time we got to that place where he was literally at my dinner table reading a lecture that I wouldn't let him give to my students, but I wanted to hear myself.

Um, I had already, I already looked at him as somebody that I could trust.

Um, he was already somebody I really cared about. And I knew he cared about me. It wasn't, you know,

I wasn't a project or anything like that. And he also knew I wasn't a blank slate. So, you know, we, we had had some history, but Ken was, and still is,

I mean, he's 96 years old and he's alive and well. And I just had a chance to visit with him recently.

And he, he's a strong, masculine man. And I had no concept for this.

I mean, my whole world was women in charge and I had,

I literally had no box for, for Ken Smith. Um, um, but, but one of the things that he would say is he would say, okay, today we're going to talk about why the

Bible is true. Like, that's exactly what he would just say. He would come in and sit down and I would make

Floyd a cup of, of ginger peach tea. And, and I would make him a cup of decaffeinated coffee.

And he would say, okay, Rosaria, today we're going to talk about why the Bible is true. And like that, you know, okay.

And, and before he would deal, even deal with my lesbianism or, or the myriad of other sins, my writings, you know, he really insisted that we had to just,

I had to understand why the Bible was our guide to faith in life and why he wasn't sharing his random opinions, which he would just say are, you know, who cares what

Ken Smith's random opinions are? I need you to know why the Bible is true, why the Bible is our guide to faith in life and why the

Bible has bearing over all humanity, not just Christians. And so, you know, and I think part of, you know, people sometimes don't appreciate or understand, they may appreciate it, but, but there are, you know, there are a lot of times in my books where I talk about what gay rights activists talk about in the kitchen, what

Ken Smith talks about in the dining room. And we, we can't imagine this, but this is before social media.

Okay. In other words, these were actually private conversations until Ken allowed me to republish his, you know, his lecture and put it in this book.

I mean, these, these were private conversations. I didn't worry that Ken Smith was going to go tweet about me, you know, when he went home because it just wasn't done.

And so I do think that back, you know, when people, you know, there's a lot, you know, one of the reasons that we were in the pickle we're in is that Christians don't seem to know what time it is.

And while I don't want to encourage nostalgia, it was easier. There was, there were easier times to be

Christians. And we just, you know, we, we, we, that's just true. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not that old.

And I, I remember, I mean, I, I feel like I didn't go to undergrad that long ago, but when

I went, there was no clause on homosexual orientation and their non -discrimination policy. Wasn't even a thought.

Right. And now the Bostock, you know, Supreme Court decision has codified it into the public schools anti -bullying, you know, policy in Title IX.

So look how quickly things can get really dangerous. We had, you know, the Bible as literature was taught.

And I remember, you know, Christians who I knew in the class, this was in New York. I mean, not far. I mean, you were at Syracuse.

I was in Egypt, but, you know, similar culture there and pretty anti -Christian, but there was still this,

I don't know, there was more of a respect, I think back then, even 15 years ago than there is now.

And, and, and so anyway, not to get off on my biography, this is about you, but I, I was intrigued though by Ken Smith.

And, and then this gets you to a point through the sanctification work of the

Holy Spirit and eventually your desires changing. You talk about this. Yeah, absolutely. And eventually culminating in, you actually wanted to be a mother, which is something that, you know, would have been foreign to you in your, before Christ.

Right. And then you meet this, this gentleman, Kent Butterfield, your husband now.

And so tell us a little bit about that because now you're submitting to a man in a relationship so foreign, but you wanted to do it.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let's see where to start with all of that.

I think once you, I don't know if this makes sense to you, but once you, once you realize that pretty much all the things that you had built, that none of them are going to, none of them are

God honoring. There's not one. I couldn't, I couldn't figure out how to do this. And so what I did, I was in,

I was on a research leave from Syracuse and I went to Geneva College and part of it, I was trying to figure out, well, can

I be a Christian professor? You know, like what can I do? Like, is there anything I can do with myself?

And so it was in that context that I, that I met Kent and I was at that point,

I very much wanted to be a wife and a mother, if the Lord allowed. I was older,

I was in my late thirties. So what that would mean, I wasn't sure, but I was absolutely,

I mean, that's just, that is just what I, what I clearly wanted. And I didn't feel any real ambivalence about that.

It was foreign and it was new, but it didn't, it felt very natural, if that makes any sense.

And one of the things that I loved about Kent, I mean, he was graduating from RPTS, the seminary, the

Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh. And I had a chance to really see the way he ministered to people and to see, to listen to his sermons and, and to watch how he, you know, how he related to my students.

And because we both had a lot of, I guess you would call it hospitality ministry or, you know, what have you.

And so I was, I mean, I just, you know, if Kent would have me,

I would, was thrilled to be his wife. And then when we, when we got engaged, it was really interesting because even

Christians weren't so thrilled with this. So, I mean, I talk about it a little bit in the book because Kent is a very, you know, traditional man.

He was going to be the pastor. I was going to be the pastor's wife. I was not going to have a job in New York.

And he also, he wasn't opposed to me having work, but we both strongly believe that scripturally speaking, a wife's, if a wife works outside the home, it's to build the home up, not tear it down.

And, you know, being a professor is not an easy or short kind of job.

It's a, it's a, you know, for me, at least it's a 70 hour a week, extremely intense.

Yeah. And it just, it just wouldn't fit with, with what I also wanted to be. And so I, I, I remember there was,

I was at this, this kind of triple crossroad. I could stay on as a faculty member.

I mean, I could return to Syracuse. I had a tenured position there, or I could stay at Geneva and work, you know, potentially in administration, or I could go be a church planter's wife, you know.

You chose option three. It just seems so clear that I couldn't do, I couldn't do option three and fit in option one and two.

And at that time I had friends say, Rosario, what are you crazy? You know, you're never going to write books. Look, you know, you're kind of taking this to this whole

Christian thing. You're taking it to an extreme. And maybe so, but John, I've never, it was hard.

I mean, it probably, that was, those were very hard days because I had to unlearn and relearn.

And I think most wives have to unlearn and relearn. I think part of the challenge of being a

Christian wife, especially if you get married later in life, is you have to do a kind of U -turn.

Whereas men, I don't think have to do that U -turn. I think you've always been on that straight path. And then a wife kind of comes up alongside you.

Maybe not. You're smiling like I'm misunderstanding. So I'll let you correct me. No, not that you're misunderstanding. I'm just thinking, you know, what you're making a good argument for.

It's nice to be a guy. Oh, well, here, let me tell you, I'm making a good argument for Titus too.

Right, right. Okay. I'm making a good argument for older women really warning younger women. What I'm saying is in our culture, in our context, the war, the perversion has been, it seems like more on women and perverting their roles so that it's, for example, when

I was growing up, I have two brothers. I don't, I see other families with girls and they had a lot of things to worry about that my parents just simply did not like, right.

Boys will be boys. I could go play with the neighborhood boys and yeah, maybe they'll use some curse words and stuff, but we didn't have the challenges of like, you know, wearing immodest clothing, which you talk about quite a bit and trying to, thinking that our role was somehow, well now maybe men do have that thinking their role is terrible and they need to be something different.

Not, not when I was growing up in the nineties as much. I mean, we still had, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger was on television and whether that was a perversion, it was still masculine.

Right. And so, but, but, but, but anyway, yeah. I mean, what you're talking about is going from, this is the intriguing thing to me.

You went from one end of the spectrum, literally to the other end. I mean, people don't maybe realize this, but you did not join, like your husband is not the pastor of some seeker sensitive church that right.

You, you, you, you don't even sing anything but the Psalms. Is that right? We sing Psalms exclusively.

That was, and also the church that I was converted under sing Psalms exclusively. Pastors in our denomination take a vow to die for the doctrine.

It is, we are small churches. And that is absolutely true. And yet, you know, there's something about the clarity of that, that was very helpful to me.

I don't, why would I leave a, you know, a flourishing, whatever,

I hate that word, but you know, we'll use it anyway, career to, to join a seeker sensitive church.

I mean, and also the other thing that's really key is the particular role that repentance unto life and the

Westminster confession of faith have played in that, in that conversion. It, it, it, there's, there's an, a hard edge and a warm and a warm welcome and hefty responsibility to being a

Christian. And that was clear to me. That was very clear to me.

And it's very true. I want to get into some of the content. I know we've been going on the bio here, which, which

I think is interesting, but you know, we've known, I'm trying to think how long we, of course, we've never met in person, but I think we've been corresponding for maybe two years or so.

And I don't know if I've ever told you this, but you remind me somewhat of my own mother. And I, and I, it brings to mind what

Paul said about, you know, treat and I don't mean any offense by this.

Hopefully you don't take it that way, but treat older women as mothers, treat younger women as sisters, right? I am, I am honored to be an older woman, one of the mothers of Israel.

That is, that is an honor. Well, you have a child that's my age, I think. So I think I'm on safe ground there.

But the way that you approach these lies, this is hard hitting stuff you're talking about.

And, and this is, I think where you remind me a little bit of my mom in that you're, you have such a good bedside manner.

And I don't know even how to do this myself, which is fine. I'm wired different, but you also, you, you punch it straight and no one has any question about what you believe.

And so I do want to talk about some of these lies. There were some specific things though, that I thought were, were very helpful that I have not read in other similar books trying to engage on, on the, on I mean, you, you cover a wide variety of topics, but specifically same sex attraction and transgenderism.

You talk about envy being the root sin in transgenderism and you know, that I think

I've probably heard it before, but I, I, I don't know if I retained it and I think I'll retain it now because you made a great point about that.

What, when Christians who are in my audience, some of them have kids coming out as saying, I'm a,

I'm actually a woman when they're a man and that kind of thing. How do you approach that?

Giving the paradigm of that's actually envy. Right? Well, before you can approach anything, you need to have it clear in your head.

So a lot of what I say in this book, you wouldn't necessarily say to your prodigal child, but you need to have it clear in your head that homosexuality, um, yeah,

I mean, sin makes more work for everybody, so it's a lot of things, but one of the things that clearly is, is a violation of the creation ordinance, um, transgenderism, it's many things.

There are many ways we could talk about it, but one of the things that clearly is, is a violation of the creation mandate.

It rebels against the created order. It is rebellion. Specifically with transgenderism, um, the desire, you know, you're not to desire your neighbor's wife and you're not to desire your neighbor's sexual anatomy.

It is covetousness and the, um, and my husband has, since I, I, I've just, you know,

I wish he would have preached to these sermons before I wrote the book because then those chapters would have been stronger, but he's gone on to preach three sermons on transgenderism, on the sin of transgenderism.

And, um, we have people in our church who have said things like, I wish I had heard that when I was in the seventh grade.

Um, because this, you know, what we know to be true about, about gender anxiety, um, is gender anxiety in children is a lot like anorexia.

Um, it's a, it's a body dysphoria. It's a, it's an often, it comes around puberty when your body is changing and you don't like it.

And who did, I mean, do you know anyone who just joyfully went through puberty? I've not met one person.

Nope. So, so you, you want to be, um, you want to be mindful that that is a, that is a real feeling, but even the

APA, which is pretty liberal rag. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't go there for us, American Psychological Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual says 73 % of the time, children with gender anxiety resolve it naturally.

If natal puberty is allowed to, uh, to go through without, um, social transitioning, without cross -sex hormones in that surgery.

So this is just nonsense when you hear, you know, would you rather have a dead daughter or a living son?

You know, this is where Christian moms and dads and grandmas and grandpas need to be willing to not be blackmailed.

Um, and I think that can be a really hard thing, but no, we, we, we want our children to be dead to sin.

We want them to cut off something, sin, not their healthy body parts, but that we do want them to cut off something.

There is something in that. Um, so for parents raising kids, you know, in early stages, before they hit puberty, it seems to me like if you are training them not to covet from those, they don't, don't covet your friend's toys.

You're already preparing them for this fight. And if you are teaching them that the seeds of the gospel are in the garden, if you're teaching them that the creation ordinance tells them who they are and when they hear things like, you know,

Joe Biden say, transgendered people are made in the image of God here on national transgender visibility day by, by 10.

They, you know, I would, I would think, I mean, maybe not 10, I shouldn't say the age, but, but your children should be able to come home and say, mom, dad, that doesn't make sense.

And mom and dad should be able to sit down and say, no, that's right. Image bearing Genesis one 27.

It happens when we grow in the knowledge and the righteousness and holiness of God. Transgenderism and homosexuality come from the world, the flesh and the devil.

There is no such thing as being made in the image of God as a trans person or a gay person.

Now, you know, son, daughter, Christians don't throw people away. So we're not going to mock them.

We're not going to, we're certainly not going to tease them. We are, we want to pray for them. But we want to remember one very, very important thing.

You can't mock God. And so even for the people that make very dangerous decisions, even for the, and I've met these people because Kent and I testify before the legislature and I speak before the

Durham school board, which is like going, doing rounds at the psych ward on the night of a full moon.

Did you want to talk about that specifically? Well, we can, we can, but I'm just, I'm just, what

I'm saying is we, as Christians, we try to share this, not just with other Christians, but we try to go where the, where it's the hot, where the battle's the hottest and say, um, uh, being made in the image of God comes with responsibilities.

But if you are that person who has, you have had, you have, you have mutilated your body or if you are that father,

I've met these people, that father who has castrated your 14 year old son, all because you think

Joe Biden was right about the 14th amendment. There is still hope in the gospel because in the gospel, uh, you will have you, your resurrected, uh, after you have committed your life to Jesus and you believe, and you put your hope and trust in him, that the, the, the promise is that your resurrected body does not have the scars of your attempt to mock

God because God can't be mocked. And really some of the de -transitioners that I know probably understand, um, the, the, the beauty of the resurrection more than, you know, anyone, right?

I mean, just because they're just, that is what they're hoping for. They're longing for a body that doesn't have the scars of what they did to it.

Um, now you have five lies and I started at four because I really wanted to make sure we got that one, that transgenderism is normal, um, but since you brought it up,

I am curious now you, you did go to the Durham school board. And so before we forget, why don't you tell us a little bit about that?

Cause that's a bold move, right? What happened? Yeah. Well, so I have a friend in my church, um, who's a real church man, his name is

Andrew Branch and he runs a website actually that helps Christians know when these school board meetings are and what they're going to talk about.

And, and about six months ago, maybe, maybe nine months ago, he said to me, Rosaria, you need to memorize as many

Psalms as you can sing, you know, and you need a three minute speech to give before the civil magistrate.

I'm like, ah, why do I need that? Well, it was the best writing advice anybody gave me. Um, and so we started to work, um, uh, on these, they were bills, you know, last year and they've all become laws.

And these are all laws that protect children and parents, uh, from, uh,

Joe Biden's anti bullying legislative moves and his perversion of the ninth, uh, the ninth, uh, title nine and the 14th amendment.

And, um, and so it's really simple. You just, you go before the school board and you get your three minutes and people boo and they hiss and they cry and they rant and you make your points.

And, um, uh, you know, and then afterwards I always try to meet people and invite people over for dinner.

I've, we've had all kinds of people over for dinner who need the gospel. You really, I mean, if you're interested and just so you know, because I know, you know,

Durham geography, it actually, um, the school, the Durham school board is literally right across the street from first Baptist church.

So I always, okay. Yeah. So I'm, I'm always like telling friends there, Hey, you know, I'm going to park here.

And if I'm not alive by nine, you know, um, but it, you know, it, it is very stereotypical.

Durham is very blue as you know. Um, uh, Andrew and I have also spoken, uh, before the

Wake County school board. They're a little more cleaned up though. Actually, we met two Christians on the school board there, which is exciting.

Um, you want to find inroads, um, uh, um, it's, but, but I think it, what's important to think about.

So I'm part of a denomination that believes in the doctrine of the mediatorial kingship of Christ. That means we believe that Christ is

King and he's King now. And you share the, um, the gospel with, um, the, the powerful elites differently than you do your lost neighbor at your kitchen table.

And if that's, if you are a one note wonder, if all you can do is share the gospel in the way you have been trained in, you know, evangelism explosion or something, it would make no sense to go before a school board meeting.

What do you say to these people who literally are hanging millstones around the necks of your children? Are you, you know, what are you going to say?

Well, you know, there's a wonderful article up at American Reformer by Caleb Goodnight about that night.

He was actually there as well. And, um, you know, and it's, you know, proclaiming the gospel to the elites and it involves things like Psalm two.

And so after we spoke, uh, um, there really was, it was really, it was such a stereotype.

A woman took to the microphone and literally just screamed for her minute.

Like, I mean, I don't know if you've ever been in a situation where this happens, but it is very uncomfortable.

She didn't say anything. She just screamed. She screamed. And then at the end, she said, you know, I'm a

Durham school licensed school teacher. I thought, Oh, I, you know, everybody who's recommending, you know, um, and, uh, and then she accused, you know, the

Christians of being, you know, white educated and articulate and which is of course a crime.

You might get a compliment. I mean, at least the educated and articulate part, you would think I went up to her afterwards.

I gave her my phone number and I said, look, I'm sorry. I, I want to hear what you have to say, but I can't interpret screaming.

So if you would like to just tell me, well, actually, John, what I said, I didn't realize

I said, if you would just use your words, I would love to hear what you say. And we get in the car. My 20 year old son was my bodyguard that night.

And he just said, mom, the last time you told me to use my words, I was four.

Yeah. You're telling a school teacher that, but, but, you know, that's what sin does.

Sin infantilizes you. And so that's just, uh, that's just the reality. And I know that because I wasn't quite there back when

I was a gay rights activist and we were speaking before the legislature, we kept the lunatics at home. We put the

PhDs and the lawyers at the microphone, but, but still, you know, it is, it is what it is.

And, um, and Andrew especially has done, I mean, his website is, I think a model of how to get

Christians to these things, because he shows you that it's not that hard. And one of the things that you need, part of why it's this helpful is we do meet people.

We do want to share the gospel, but we also want to warn the civil, you know, we want to warn the civil magistrate, right.

That, that this is, this is serious. What you are doing is dangerously wrong.

Yeah. And, and we are Christians and we know that, and there is a much better way to do that.

I mean, I've even gone so far at these meetings to say to people, look, I used to be a gay rights activist. I can't interpret screaming, but if you'd like me to help me help you make your argument for you so that we can talk,

I will do that. Yeah. They probably don't take you up on that. I would imagine. Well, you know, it, it, you, it's amazing.

There are people, but I'm just, so, so I, I think that it, we have not come, we are, we are at a place where Christianity is not comfortable, but the, the, the five lies of our anti -Christian age are in the church.

They don't stay at the school board. And if you say things like, oh, you know, public schools are great.

They're fine. But they're just not. Yeah. I mean, I mean, maybe they used to be, we can decide, you know, but so.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I totally agree. I have a podcast that haven't released yet, but it's coming out tomorrow.

And I say, basically, you know, putting your kids on a yellow bus and sending them to people you don't know to educate them across town is kind of insane, but some people are in that position and they can't do anything else.

But I, just so people know, we started with life for transgenderism is normal, but just, you know, the five lies are homosexuality is normal.

Being a spiritual person is kinder than being a biblical Christian. Feminism is good for the world and the church.

And then modesty is an outdated burden that serves male dominance and holds women back. So I don't know if we'll be able to talk in detail about all of those.

But I did want to ask you about empathy, which I think falls under lie one. Homosexuality is normal.

And empathy is something I'll be honest in my own vocabulary. I still use this word at times saying

I empathize. And I think it's just a matter of habit. And I think I should change that to sympathy.

But why don't you explain, because you talk about this a bit, why empathy isn't the virtue that our world says or thinks it is.

Right, right, right, right. And Joe Rigney, I mean, I'm just quoting Joe Rigney there and his work has been just brilliant on the subject.

So empathy is a relatively new word. It doesn't really pop up in the Oxford English Dictionary until about 1973.

And sympathy is a very ancient word. And they don't mean the exact same thing.

But they cover a similar territory, which is compassion. And you can see post -73 with a kind of therapeutic culture on the rise.

A high virtue was to stand in someone's shoes. And the idea is if you can stand in someone's shoes, you can understand how they feel.

And if you can understand how they feel, you can be good, kind company in this hard world.

The problem is if my shoes happen to be mired in the mud of a raging river,

I don't need you to stand in my shoes. I need you to throw me a rope. That's right. And so it isn't so much that empathy is never a good thing.

It's that it isn't always a good thing. And so one of the things I heard a lot at the school -born meeting was just, you know, safe space, hold my space, empathy, everything, empathy, empathy.

And it's ridiculous. I mean, at some point, how do you just say, but you're wrong and here's the better way?

You know, I mean, there's almost no, empathy leaves no room for any kind of genuinely objective, you know, observation of danger and problem.

And, you know, and also empathy doesn't want you to fix the problem. It just wants you to feel the problem.

And I think that's just absurd. I think part of being a mature person is wanting to fix our problems.

And we have many problems. So the way that that has played out in the homosexuality, the normalization of homosexuality is, you remember the love is love, everything, you know, just, you know, stand in my shoes.

I'm just like you. It's all the same. And for reasons I don't really understand,

Christians were ill prepared to deal with that suggestion.

So one of the things that all five lies are that sort of tie them all up is this idea that sex and gender are different.

And that is a feminist idea that took in some ways fruition in transgenderism.

And, you know, part of why we, you know, the only place feminism is alive and well right now is the evangelical church, because transgenderism killed feminism, you know, in the, in the, you know, writ large public square.

Well, what did you call what we're in now? You said fourth wave, right? I think so. So I think so.

So third wave would have been the 70s, I suppose. Maybe the 90s, maybe the identity politics before transgenderism.

Okay. But I mean, yeah, go ahead. Sorry. I think it would be good just to ponder this idea of sex and gender.

I mean, just so that I don't move too quickly for listeners or readers that that the creation ordinance makes it very, very clear that you are born in the image of God as a man or as a woman, and you will be a man or a woman in eternity.

You are not that is that is ontological. And your identity is rooted. You have a godly identity and a purpose.

And God doesn't create a pattern without a purpose. He doesn't create a bridge to nowhere.

So if you were, if you were created a man, you were created a man for godly purposes for the purposes of protecting and leading and providing.

And if you were if you were born a woman, then you also have godly purposes.

But feminism wanted to say, no, no, no, we're going to, you know, we've got to deal with this problem of men and babies, progeny and patriarchy.

So we've got it. We've got to put that line right in the middle. And and, you know,

I'm really this is a this is not my book. But Chris Gordon, I think you and I've talked about this book, the

New Reformation Catechism on my shelf. I have it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he I mean, if I can just answer because he does this really well.

He says the question is, aren't we able to make a distinction between biological sex and gender in search of our and then if you're a feminist, it would be your calling or if your gender fluid, it would be your identity.

And this is what Pastor Gordon says. No, he says God established a natural order in the creation of male and female that is good for us as image bearers of God to introduce gender as a new category of personhood separate from the biological category of sex in pursuit of a different sexual identity is unnatural to the creation order and harmful for the purposes for which

God made us. And in keeping with catechisms, there's about 10 proof texts for that. So this is an important thing to think about.

The earlier 30 years ago, you heard about leaving consent.

Let's just leave consenting adults alone. And we need allies who would empathize with us as gay and lesbian people to leave consenting adults alone.

You haven't heard that expression post -Obergefell. And that is because the allies of the pre -Obergefell gay rights movement have become the groomers of the post -Obergefell movement.

So this is fascinating to me because you said this is alive. Feminism is alive and well in the church.

And that's the only place because I'm writing right now what will eventually hopefully become a book.

And that's one of the things I talk about is this kind of a classical liberalism mindset of expanding freedom for the individual, meaning whatever they want to do and personal autonomy.

And of course, the main thing that I could I was thinking about that has kind of catapulted that is when it comes to sexuality, thinking that as long as consenting adults are involved, it is permissible.

But you're saying, and I think you're right, that there is a shift going on that.

So consent, do you think we're moving into maybe in transition right now to consent is no longer what will determine whether something's morally right or wrong?

It's going to be something else. Yeah, absolutely. And you really see that in this invention of the trans child.

And Christopher Rufo, who I think is just brilliant, talks about the trans child is a totem of the left, you know, a totem, like the head of a boar you put on a stick and everybody marches behind it.

It's not real, but it stands for something. And so to me, it is just really fascinating that we no longer talk about consenting adults.

We talk about the rights of trans children who don't exist. OK, that is not a category that exists.

You may have gender anxious children, and even the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual accounts for that.

You're going to have every sin and pathology under the sun post Genesis three. But this is a political tool.

And one of the ways that it really the loop gets closed with feminism is, you know,

I think women look, you need to pick. Do you want godly patriarchy? Do you want biblical patriarchy?

Do you want godly men in charge, protecting, providing? Or do you want transgender patriarchy?

Because if you'll notice, there are no women's sports, women's sport, you know, I mean, at least not as long as Title IX means what it means.

So I think we are looking starkly at the world. And so that's part of why I wanted to write.

You know, I know people are like, oh, Rosaria, your tone. I hope you hear the love in my tone. This is the love that says, don't cross the street.

There's a car coming. This is really serious. Christians need to wake up to that.

And even if what happens is we wake up and we realize that Christendom is a lot smaller than we thought, because all the hirelings in parachurch ministries and all the hirelings in megachurches, they can't take the heat.

Okay. I mean, I think reality, it's still very helpful to know what we're dealing with. I think that's a good transition to something

I wanted to ask you about your work, I would say maybe six years ago and before that, when you were very platformed at the

Gospel Coalition and even other outlets. I know you mentioned before we turned on the camera and recorded that Christianity Today had even carried some of your stuff.

And now you're not getting, you did not get a good review in Christianity Today for this new book.

And I'm assuming that some of the former places that used to welcome you and want to platform you are now turning on you or trying to ignore you.

And I just wonder what that means and how you interpret that. And what does that mean for Christianity?

Do you think that that is an indication of maybe it's a smaller group than we thought? Well, I might kind of, is it okay if I frame it a little differently?

Because I'm, you know, I mean, I'm a pastor's wife in a small church. I am not,

I mean, I've written books that have sold a lot of copies. I've written articles that have gone a lot of places.

And so it probably looks like I'm a lot busier doing those things that I'm doing, but I mostly spend my time homeschooling kids, taking care of a grandson and chopping vegetables.

Okay, so that is the normal Rosaria, you know, kind of life. And I, like many, many people back in what

Aaron Wren would have called neutral world believed there was a third way. I believed it.

And whether it was there or whether I just believed it, I don't know. But my husband's a pastor in the

RPCNA. We are not, I mean, we are in a fraternal organization with the

PCA, but we don't have a whole lot in common. And so, you know, my husband was never a fan of some of the bigger players like Tim Keller and other things.

There were some problems in that theology. So, you know, that, but I did, you know,

I certainly came to Christ in 1999, and that was during, you know, a more neutral time for Christianity.

And so organizations like the Gospel Coalition and Christianity Today wanted to know about how

Ken Smith and I got to be, you know, in the same room having this conversation. And so, you know, for me,

I did come to faith through the hospitality ministry of someone, and so did my husband. And for years,

Kent and I were the only two Christians in our extended family until our two youngest children came to faith.

So the particular practice of hospitality and other things. So in other words, what I'm saying is,

I might have been working in a kind of parallel universe that was, you know, complimentary, but I never held a post at the

Gospel Coalition. I never, I mean, I've written, I think I've written more books than I have

Gospel Coalition articles. And I've spoken at two of their conferences compared to the, I don't know, hundreds of places

I've spoken at. So I think it might just, you know, but I will tell you that it was my session that said, you're not writing for Gospel Coalition.

You're not doing anything for these broad evangelical groups, long before they had anything to say, you know, positive or negative about me.

And the reason that my session said that was they were very concerned with the way my voice might be used in these contexts.

Not because anyone was concerned that anybody was going to edit the Gospel out of my articles.

That wasn't the concern. The concern was that my article would maybe be pitted against a very liberal article, leaving other

Christians with this confusion that, well, it could be either way, you know. And I think that's where pluralism gets you.

That's where postmodernism gets you. So I, in some ways,

I left the party a while ago. And I don't expect,

I don't expect the Gospel Coalition to love this book. I don't, I certainly did not, you know, and in fact, if they did,

I'd wonder what was going on. Because we disagree about what time it is.

See, I think we disagree about what, we disagree about whether we live in a post -Bergefell world where it is unsafe to be a soft presence and where you need to move or the battle is hot and where pastors need to get the wolves out of the church and certainly out of the pulpit.

We disagree about that. So why, why would I expect a good review? I don't. And I'll tell you,

I don't mind a bad review. I, I happen to think everybody thinks the same. Nobody thinks very much.

I love free speech. I am happy to be a target of opposition within reason, you know, if it produces a good, a good hot dialogue, that's fine.

Yeah, well, yeah, the reason I bring up the places you used to be platformed is these five lies that you talk about are all ones that you say you believed at one time.

And some of these, I know you believed while you were, maybe all of them, but at least some of them, you believed when you were writing, at least publications like the

Gospel Coalition were very positive towards your work. And now not so much now that you've rejected these lies, which to me, that's a warning bell in my mind that, that these, these lies are ingrained, as you say, some of them, at least like feminism, you said exists in the evangelical church.

I don't know if you've seen any of the, I don't know if you're, you, we're going to get to social media in a minute.

So I don't know if you're on Twitter or any of those places. I'm not. Good. I would disqualify myself in the first 10 minutes if I were on Twitter.

So there's some videos going around in Twitter of, you know, just the scene at TGC's conference this week.

And, and some people have prominent accounts have been pointing out that if you look in the room, it's mainly, it's very white, first of all.

And everyone is over 40, at least. I mean, most people look much older than that. And it's, which is not a knock, right?

And it's like, you want wisdom, you want older people in your movement. But, but it is, it does raise the question, where are the younger people?

Because young wrestlers and reformed used to actually mean young, and it doesn't mean that anymore. Right. And I think what you just said about neutral world makes sense of all this.

Some of these organizations, TGC being one, I, this is my opinion. I think they're stuck in neutral world.

Like, like they can't, like, like in a sense, there is a nostalgia that they are holding onto that, that there's, they think it's achievable to have a thought leader who's a

Christian. Like, that's why they like Francis Collins so much, right? Like who can really get into these very influential areas.

And we need to just produce people like that. And we can do it. And I think you're, you're being realistic right now and saying, actually, we don't live in that world.

And it's time for us to realize that the world we live in now is very aggressively anti -Christian.

Yes. And, and it's not even, there is no neutrality. There is no blanks, like area for us to operate.

We're going to, from the get -go, be taking in fire. Yeah. And I have a slightly different take on this.

I might be more paranoid. So let me, let me, let me throw it out. Let me throw it out. I think that these parachurch ministries are run by hirelings and hirelings have to keep the coffee going and the lights on.

And a frank conversation about negative world, it, it, it, it's, it doesn't, it doesn't do that.

It's not a very seeker -friendly conversation. Furthermore, there are certain, there are certain, you know, ministries and movements that are serving as the umbrella for some of the thinking, and especially some of these campus ministries like Preston Sprinkle's role in Crew and Family Life Today.

These are not small things. And see, I am, I am, I am named after the rosary.

It is true, but I am no longer Roman Catholic. I don't have a Pope. I don't have a

Pope. I am the, I'm a covenant member of a reformed Presbyterian church.

I have pastors, I have elders, I have a Presbytery, I have a Lord. But I think if you have to kind of manage the reputation of, you know, the person who's training you all had to go to, or if it's, it's a lot of people -pleasing to manage.

And you know, we've seen this with books, people who blur books and don't read them. That's a problem.

How did that get to be a problem? Well, it got to be a problem because, I mean, I know I've gotten, I've gotten influencer letters like this that say, you don't have to read it.

Just tweet this about it. I mean, I can show you the letters. It's crazy.

Yeah, it's crazy. So that's not moral. I mean, it's a violation of the ninth commandment.

That's right. Yeah. If I say I've read this book and you should read it, and I haven't read this book and I don't know what's in it, it's a violation of the ninth commandment.

So I would say that the party's over. And, you know, the more sober you are, the more you realize the party is over.

That's right. But, and I, and I want to say this in a more optimistic way too, because by optimistic,

I don't mean like the optimist club, but I mean, the Lord has a purpose for why we are where we are right now.

Aiken is in the camp and we need to deal with that responsibly. That means that, so in my own case,

I needed to repent publicly of my stance on reparative therapy, my, my advocacy and use of preferred transgender pronouns.

And you know what? There's probably a host of other things that I haven't, that I'm too dumb to notice that I'll have to keep repenting of if I keep talking, which is why, you know, talking out loud is dangerous.

But so this is part of how the Christian lives, but God has a purpose. And his purpose involves refining the church in preparation for the new

Jerusalem. It will be the church that is standing. And we pray that our churches will be the ones that are standing when the

Lord Jesus Christ returns. And so I think there's a kind of fluff and a kind of carelessness.

I just don't think we have, we have time for it anymore. You know, I think it's distracting. Michael Foster had tweeted something out the other day.

Someone I think sent it to me that he thinks the neo -evangelical movement, the industry, you know, as, as we're, we're talking about is, is done that there's going

Christianity is going to continue, but that won't. And, and it's just that some of the people in charge don't realize that they're already done.

And, and, and I think I agree with that. I think that's what you're saying too. Um, so I mean, that, that gives us a, a hope and an expectation.

What's God going to do next? How is he going to use us? And what's it going to look like? Right. And it gives us a command to really value our local church.

That's right. To love your elders, to pray for them, to, to love your church, to be, um, to be influenced by your church.

As an older woman, I do spend a good bit of time telling younger women, things like,

I think you need to ditch the therapist. Uh, I, you know, I mean, I, you know, maybe go find a more faithful one, but, but there, you know, you want to be, you want to be careful about how many, how many ways you're being influenced by the world.

So love your church, value your church, make sure that you are in a true church, a Bible believing church with, with pastors that would lay down their lives for the, for the, for the sheep, not hirelings who are doing the body count and the number count.

It doesn't matter, you know, small, big, just faithful. And to remember that you can't possibly bypass repentance to get to grace.

So don't, you know, um, uh, in, um, in, uh, uh, Thomas Brooks's book, uh,

Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices. We've talked about this book, I think before, but he, you know, he talks about how, um,

Satan loves to paint sin with virtues colors. Be careful if you're in a church that is prone to do that because it, it doesn't want to offend people.

Um, and, and also to realize that there's no place to hide anymore. Um, the concern that gay rights activists and that, um, the progressive church has about faithful churches is not that we don't welcome people who identify as LGBTQ.

That's not their concern. It's not like there's a sign outside that says, don't come in if you're not, it's that we proclaim the gospel.

That's right. And they will not be affirmed in their sin. They will be actually loved in what real grace looks like.

Yes. Yes. No, I couldn't agree more. Um, the, where we have been going about an hour and I, I want to be conscious of your time.

There are two other areas I wanted to ask you about if you're willing to. So the first was, um, modesty and, um, now

I'm trying to remember what the second was, I think, um, internet use. And so you, you get very practical, especially the last, uh, the afterward,

I think it is, or the, um, there's a chapter in here where you have specific scenarios that people have brought to you that are hard, like really hard.

What am I? My son's wants to bring his quote unquote husband home for Christmas and the other siblings don't want it.

What do I do? So, um, the, these are two areas though that I think are very practical with, um, and this is for women.

So I'm going to kind of step aside and let you say what you want, but, but concerning modesty and internet use.

These are two areas where I think you could have very conservative, you know, go to a Bible believing church, uh, girls or women who are perhaps making some unwise choices on these matters.

And they're not, um, they're not raging feminists, right? They're not, they're certainly not, they're not lesbians.

They're not any of that, but, but there is a, there are some lies, I guess, that they're buying into. So that might surprise some people who are listening right now.

Cause that seems pretty innocuous, but what were you getting at when you wrote about those two things?

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, I am, I am an older woman and I spent a lot of years as a feminist.

And so I will tell you that when women play hardball the way men do, they, they don't survive.

And so, and you've seen this time and time again, women who have just taken on battles on Twitter and, and they're just devastated and, and, and they're, and by saying not survive,

I don't mean their reputations. I mean like their core. Um, I don't think women are meant to, to battle in these ways.

I don't think it's really our, our nature or our job. And so, um, one of the things that I think we want to be really careful of is that, um, we are not replacing exhibitionism for modesty as though that somehow empowers women because it really, really doesn't.

Um, one of the things that has been a value in, in, in, in the life of most women for, you know, thousands of years is the home and in places of privacy.

So many good and beautiful things can happen in privacy. So many honest conversations and nurturing opportunities.

Um, they can't even be described. I mean, I, I know that for any woman, any mother,

I know you can genuinely do 50 useful things that literally no one else can do in your house before 9am.

And it's, and it's your house. It's your husband. It's your children. It's very intimate. It's very specific.

It's very private. Um, and so the internet tends to be, everything is public, everything is documented.

And I think it's just, I think it just creates, um, a, um, a distraction, but it also creates an element of people pleasing that is almost impossible to contain.

Um, but so I would put together privacy, modesty, as opposed to exhibitionism and exhibitionism can be in dress.

It can be in culture. It can be, um, it could be, um, on the internet. Um, but I think women have to be especially careful because I don't think women bounce back from these things.

Maybe men do. I don't, I don't even know if men do. I am not, uh, you know, I just, I, I think it has really run its course.

I think that, uh, using social media for anything, but information has run its course.

And by information, I mean, something like prayer meeting is moved from seven to 715 because logistics.

Yeah. Yeah. I just don't think this is a good place to work out your problems or to work out your theology or to, uh, or any of that.

Um, and I think it is just cause we've seen time and time again, uh, the, the hurt and the devastation to reputations and, and to Christian lives.

Um, not to mention the enormous time waste, uh, that it is. Yes. And I found that convicting, uh, even though I'm not a female, obviously

I, um, you know, when I look at social media, I realized there's been some blessings and people will find this podcast through social media.

And I've been able, it's been interesting to see, uh, people who promote false teachings in the church be so candid about them.

So you have, you do have a chapter and verse you can show someone, well, this is where they said it, if they doubt you, which is kind of nice to have that proof.

But I think overall you're right. Um, it, it's not conducive to productive discussion as much as being with someone and looking them in the eye and, um, sensing their humanity and just that they're made in the image of God.

You care about them. Um, you don't get that care through a tweet. It's just not, you can't detect any of that.

So, um, so anyway, I think, I think this is a really good word. And, and especially for women who are not designed for combat, it's, uh,

Twitter's combat. I mean, that's just kind of what it is. And so, um, anyway,

I appreciated you saying that. And I don't know if I've ever read anyone else make these points. I'm sure someone has, but I think they do need to be said.

So, yeah, and I think, I mean, it might be, you know,

I mean, it might be a little old school, but I just think it's a, it's a terrible time waster. And I've, you can't, you know, what you can do in privacy is you can change your mind.

That's right. And, and I, and I often wonder if I could have, yeah, I mean, there's so much, there was a very tumultuous time for me in Ken Smith's, you know, living room or my dining room.

And there was a lot of, you know, just sort of heart -wrenching conversations for me.

I was working out different scenarios for how I might live my life or what it means to have an eternal soul.

And, um, it, it, it, it would have just been devastating to not be able to change my mind.

I wouldn't be here if I couldn't change my mind. If I felt, you know, and that's why I just hate that expression. The whole world is watching.

Well, who cares? God is watching. That's right. I mean, really God is watching. Well, well,

I, I appreciate you, you giving your time and talking to us. There's a lot of wisdom in what you've said. And if people want to pick up the book, where do you recommend they go?

Well, you know, it's, it's, it's actually for sale on Amazon until Amazon beats the part where I say, transgenderism is satanic.

And then, and then it might not be available on Amazon, but it is available at Crossway.

Crossway. Okay. So you can go to crossway .com or crossway .org, I'm sorry. Or you can go to amazon .com

and get a copy. You also have a study guide that goes along with it for small groups,

I guess, or women's Bible studies or something like that. And so, yeah, yeah.

I appreciate it. Do you have a website, by the way? I should have asked this where people can go. What's, what's your website?

RosariaButterfield .com. Yeah. And I've been there, so I know this. So everyone go to RosariaButterfield .com,

check out Rosaria's writings there and then, and pick up, seriously, pick up a copy of this book, even if you want to pick it up for your church library, you know, pick up two, put one in your church library.

So we want to support this. So yeah. Anyway, God bless you, Rosaria. Thank you. God bless you.