Rosaria Butterfield on 5 Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age

Why Rosaria Butterfield Wrote *Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age*

Hello, everyone. Welcome once again to another edition of the Conversations That Matter podcast. Appreciate everyone tuning in, and we have a wonderful episode. We have Rosaria Butterfield with us. Hey, Rosaria.

How are you doing? Hey, John. Nice to see you. Good to see you. I know you've been on the podcast at least once before, and you are, of course, a wife, mother, author, a pastor's wife. You live in Durham, North Carolina, close to where I used to live, and you were a professor of English and Women's Studies at Syracuse University.

You've written this book, Five Lies of Our Anti-Christian Age, and I guess the first question I have for you on that is The question every author wants first is, why did you write the book?

Right, because I couldn't get anybody else to, because that's not a good answer. No, I wrote the book because in the last Really, our post-Obergefell world, but it really has been taking up shape in the last

Since 2019, I'd say, is when it really hit. Lots of questions from moms and grandmas specifically about what's going on in the church. We expect pushback from the world, but why are we divided in the church?

Why am I all of a sudden a bigot? Why if I go to my small group and I say, please pray for my sister who identifies as a lesbian, they say, that sounds homophobic. What happened? In meeting with women and talking with women and just thinking about it myself, I came up with three reasons and five lies.

Three reasons why, if Christ is not divided, why are we? It's a basic faith and reason question. I just sat to write a book for faithful Christian moms and grandmas. My audience is not It is not an apologetics.

It is not polemical, although some people would definitely think it is because it has an edge. It was just my best attempt at a faith and reason question. If Christ is not divided, why are we and what do we do?

Came up with three reasons and five lies. Three reasons that produce these five lies and the challenges of these five lies. There are three challenges. One is, I used to believe all of these five lies.

I totally understand how sneaky they are. Then to make it worse, I even believed some of them as a Christian. I totally understand how they sneak into the church, but they are anti-Christian. There is no gospel in them.

We can't have a soft presence in relationship to them. They have to be dealt with as the sin that they are. I am hoping that I can equip Christian moms and grandmas and the people in their life who are shepherding them to grow in sanctification and let their faith fail if not as we pursue the hard course these days.

I certainly think it hits the mark if that is what you are attempting to do. I want to get into some of these lies and reasons, but you include some biographical content. I want to start off with who you were pre-Christian.

You were a professor of English and Women's Studies at Syracuse University. You were tenured there. I would say from a worldly academic standpoint, you were on a good track to keep maintaining and leveling up.

I don't know if there would have been opportunities to go to more prestigious universities, but certainly to write books and gain the acclaim of the world. You were in a lesbian relationship. You were really the model woman in the minds of many feminists.

You were living that life to a T, and now you are not. You talk about your conversion. You talk about Kent and the love story. That actually fascinates me, and I want you to talk about that because he reached out to you when you were still in that state.

What happened? What were the steps that took you from that world to the life that you have now?

Conversion, Discipleship, and the Authority of Scripture

Right, right. So Ken Smith, the pastor, reached out to me when I was a lesbian. My husband's name is Kent, and by the time I just missed it. Sorry. That's okay. It's so hard. It's so hard. I don't know.

The men in my life all have the name that sounds the same, but yes, yes. So I was a lesbian and a feminist and a professor, and I wasn't just the lesbian next door who sells all-state insurance. I spoke before the New York legislature.

I wrote policy. I believed what I believed. And after my tenure book was written, I was working on a new book, basically just trying to figure out why people like you didn't like people like me. And specifically, I just wanted to know why Christians would not leave consenting adults alone.

Now, you haven't heard that expression in quite some time. No. And there's a reason for that, and we can get to it. I hope when we talk about Obergefell. And during that time, a pastor who is also a neighbor reached out to me, and in the book I talk about how he ministered to me, he made it very clear that he could accept me, but he didn't approve of me, and that was fine.

And we can think about whether that would be acceptable in a post-Obergefell world. I don't know. But I probably had 500 meals at his house, and I read through the Bible seven times under his tutelage, and after two years of that, I just came to the absolute conviction that I was in very big trouble, that my soul was in very big trouble, and that the Lord Jesus Christ was exactly who he said he was, that he is risen, he is alive, and that that would be true whether I believed it or not.

And so committed my life to Jesus, and the church welcomed me, and I started being discipled by Floyd, Ken's wife, and specifically on the subject of godly womanhood. And the idea very much was that I would change.

The idea was that I would, as a born-again Christian, live in the liberty of Christ. And so obviously when I was first converted, my fairly persistent lesbian feelings did not go away right away, but they did.

I mean, it was not a kind of a magic bullet or something, but part of the impetus for writing this book is as someone who comes out of just decades of sexual sin, I don't want to toy with this stuff anymore, and I don't want to pretend that everything is fine.

I still have, you know, wake up in the middle of the night needing to repent of a sin I had forgotten to repent of from my past. It's very serious. Sexual sin is a very serious thing. And so my own, you know, if I sound kind of alarmist in the book, it's not anger.

It's an older woman speaking to other women, basically saying, don't be me, and therefore don't be so smitten by the lies that the world teaches you. So what I did in Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert, I say I lost everything but the dog.

That's kind of true. I mean, I didn't actually lose my job, but I, you know, life got really hard when I became a Christian, and my pastor and my elders and my friends at church were just, they just took me in, and they took care of me.

And it was a very dear and painful time. I would not want to relive that at all.

Yeah, well, let's talk about Ken a little bit, Pastor Ken, and then Ken to your husband. So Pastor Ken comes and gives a presentation in your class. Was it in your class, or was it in the college?

You listened to it, though. Well, actually, it was at my dining room table. Oh, so, okay. Yeah, because he wanted to. He wanted to give this presentation to my class. I directed the English and Textual Studies program, which was the undergraduate.

You were taking notes, though, lividly. You write about this. Oh, yeah, lividly. And you hadn't read the Bible, but he had, and he's telling you things that you haven't been exposed to yet. In that moment, I know you give some of your thoughts in the book, I guess at the dining room table there.

What went through your head as far as, like, was that the moment you became, you were livid, but did you become curious in that moment that he had something that you wanted?

Well, what I became curious about was, I mean, so I was working on this book project on the religious right, and I really wanted to know what these people believed. And so when I'm writing a book and I'm trying to listen to people, I try to listen from the point of view that's not me.

And as I was listening from his point of view, I kept thinking, if only I believed this, my life would be, like, this would be amazing. If this is true, this would be amazing. But, you know, the if was a big capital if, if, can't be, you know, and that was a very disarming, because I wasn't expecting to feel that way.

I was expecting for him to give a bunch of dumb arguments and for me to feel quite equipped to topple them all down. And that was not the case. In fact, what he gave was what's called a meta narrative.

He gave a story of the whole world that was so different from my story of the and so different from my postmodern story. And it was compelling. It wasn't, I don't know, it wasn't tyrannical or, or frightening.

It was, I mean, at the end, I did have this question, like, how in the world would this be good news for me? But I did understand how it would be good news for most people. And so that was very, very disarming.

What was it about it? And I know there's more that we need to get to, but I was intrigued by that section, I suppose, because we all want to be like Pastor Ken, in a way we want, we all have neighbors.

In fact, I just had a neighbor today, I was driving down the street, and he flagged me down and stopped me. And, and I got to know his name and, and he was farther down the street than myself. But I, you know, my next thought was, how do I get the gospel to this guy?

Right? Not, not because I want to, you know, take a notch, you know, and put it on my belt or something. But because, like, I immediately had a care for him. And so what was it about Pastor Ken? Like, did he, was it just the power of the message?

Or was there something about him that you found attractive? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, we had met, we had met many times before. And in fact, he had reached out to me after I had written a pretty hateful article in the newspaper. And he, you know, he just wanted, he just said, I think you're wrong.

And I wonder if we could talk. And, and, and I thought, well, I'd love to talk because you might be my unpaid research assistant for this book project. So of course, I'd love to talk to you. And he and his wife are just, you know, charming and kind and, but super smart.

Like it, it wasn't what I was expecting. And so by the time we got to that place where he was literally at my dinner table reading a lecture that I wouldn't let him give to my students, but I wanted to hear myself.

I had already, I already looked at him as somebody that I could trust. Um, he was already somebody I really cared about and I knew he cared about me. It wasn't, you know, I wasn't a project or anything like that.

And he also knew I wasn't a blank slate. So, you know, we, we had had some history, but he, Ken was, and still is, I mean, he's 96 years old and he's alive and well, and I just got a chance to visit with him recently.

And he, he's a strong, masculine man. And I had no concept for this. I mean, my whole world was women in charge and I had, I literally had no box for, for Ken Smith. Um, um, but, but one of the things that he would say is he would say, okay, today we're going to talk about why the Bible is true.

Like, that's exactly what he would just say. He would come in and sit down and I would make Floyd a cup of, of ginger peach tea. And, and I would make him a cup of decaffeinated coffee. And he would say, okay, Rosaria, today we're going to talk about why the Bible is true.

And like that, you know, okay. And, and before he would deal, even deal with my lesbianism or, or the myriad of other sins, my writings, you know, he really insisted that we had to just, I had to understand why the Bible was our guide to faith in life and why he wasn't sharing his random opinions, which he would just say are, you know, who cares what Ken Smith's random opinions are?

I need you to know why the Bible is true, why the Bible is our guide to faith in life and why the Bible has bearing over all humanity, not just Christians. And so, you know, and I think part of, you know, people sometimes don't appreciate or understand, they may appreciate it, but, but there are, you know, there are a lot of times in my books where I talk about what gay rights activists talk about in the kitchen, what Ken Smith talks about in the dining room.

And we, we can't imagine this, but this is before social media. Okay. In other words, these were actually private conversations until Ken allowed me to republish his, you know, his lecture and put it in this book.

These were private conversations. I didn't worry that Ken Smith was going to go tweet about me, you know, when he went home because it just wasn't done. And so I do think that back, you know, when people, you know, there's a lot, you know, one of the reasons that we were in the pickle we're in is that Christians don't seem to know what time it is.

And while I don't want to encourage nostalgia, it was easier. There were easier times to be Christians. And we just, you know, we, we, we, that's just true. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm not that old. And I, I remember, I mean, I, I feel like I didn't go to undergrad that long ago, but when I went, there was no clause on homosexual orientation and their non-discrimination policy.

Wasn't even a thought.

Right. And now the Bostock, you know, Supreme Court decision has codified it into the public schools anti-bullying, you know, policy in Title IX. So look how quickly things can get really dangerous.

We had, you know, the Bible as literature was taught. And I remember, you know, Christians who I knew in the class, this was in New York. I mean, not far. I mean, you were at Syracuse. I was in Egypt.

But, you know, similar culture there and pretty anti-Christian, but there was still this, I don't know, there was more of a respect, I think back then, even 15 years ago than there is now. And, and, and so anyway, not to get off on my biography, this is about you, but I, I was intrigued, though, by Ken Smith.

And, and then this gets you to a point through the sanctification work of the Holy Spirit. And eventually your desires changing. You talk about this. Yeah, absolutely. And eventually culminating and you actually wanted to be a mother, which is something that, you know, would have been foreign to you in your before Christ.

Right. And then you meet this, this gentleman, Kent Butterfield, your husband now. Yeah. And so tell us a little bit about that, because now you're submitting to a man in a relationship so foreign, but you wanted to do it.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Well, let's see where to start with all of that. I think once you, I don't know if this makes sense to you, but once you, once you realize that pretty much all the things that you had built, that none of them are going to, none of them are God honoring.

There's not one. I couldn't figure out how to do this. And so what I did, I was in, I was on a research leave from Syracuse and I went to Geneva college and part of it, I was trying to figure out, well, can I be a Christian professor?

You know, like what can I do? Is there anything I can do with myself? And so it was in that context that I, that I met Kent and I was at that point, I very much wanted to be a wife and a mother, if the Lord allowed.

I was older. I was in my late thirties. So what that would mean, I wasn't sure, but I was absolutely, I mean, that's just, that is just what I, what I clearly wanted. And I didn't feel any real ambivalence about that.

I mean, it was foreign and it was new, but it didn't, it felt very natural if that makes any sense. Yeah. So, so, and, and one of the things that I loved about Kent, I mean, he, he was graduating from RPTS, the seminary, the Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh.

And I had a chance to really see the way he ministered to people and to see, you know, to listen to his sermons and, and to watch how he, you know, how he related to my students. And because we both had a lot of, I guess you would call it hospitality ministry or, you know, what have you.

So I was, I mean, I just, you know, if Kent would have me, I would, was thrilled to be his wife. And then when we, when we got engaged, it was really interesting because even Christians weren't so thrilled with this.

So, I mean, I talk about it a little bit in the book because Kent is a very, you know, traditional man. He was going to be the pastor. I was going to be the pastor's wife. I was not going to have a job in New York.

And he also, he was not opposed to me having work, but we both strongly believe that scripturally speaking, a wife's, if a wife works outside the home, it's to build the home up, not tear it down. And, you know, being a professor is not an easy or short kind of job.

It's a, it's, you know, for me, at least it's a 70 hour a week, extremely intense. Yeah. And it just, it just wouldn't fit with, with what I also wanted to be. And so I remember there was, I was at this, this kind of triple crossroad.

I could stay on as a faculty member. I could return to Syracuse. I had a tenured position there. Or I could stay at Geneva and work, you know, potentially in administration. Or I could go be a church planner's wife, you know.

And you chose option three. It just seems so clear that I couldn't do, I couldn't do option three and fit in option one and two. And at that time I had friends say, Rosario, what are you crazy? You know, you're never going to write books.

You're not, look, you know, you're kind of taking this to this whole Christian thing. You're taking it to an extreme. And maybe so, but John, I've never, it was hard. I mean, it probably, that was, those were very hard days because I had to unlearn and relearn.

And I think most wives have to unlearn and relearn. I think part of the challenge of being a Christian wife, especially if you get married later in life, is you have to do a kind of U-turn. Whereas men, I don't think have to do that U-turn.

I think you've always been on that straight path. And then a wife kind of comes up alongside you. Maybe not. You're smiling like I'm misunderstanding. So I'll let you correct me.

I'm just thinking, you know what, you're making a good argument for. It's nice to be a guy. Like we.

Well, here, let me tell you, I'm making a good argument for Titus too. Right, right. Okay. I'm making a good argument for older women, really warning younger women.

What I'm saying is in our culture, in our context, it's the war, the perversion has been, it seems like more on women and perverting their roles so that it's like, for example, when I was growing up, I have two brothers.

I don't, I see other families with girls and they had a lot of things to worry about that my parents just simply did not like, right. Boys will be boys. I could go play with the neighborhood boys and yeah, maybe they'll use some curse words and stuff, but we didn't have the challenges of like, you know, wearing immodest clothing, which you talk about quite a bit and trying to, um, thinking that our role was somehow, um, that, well, now maybe men do have that thinking their role is terrible and they need to be something different.

Not, not when I was growing up in the nineties as much. I mean, we still had, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger was on television and whether that was a perversion, it was still masculine. Right. And so, um, but, but, but, but anyway, yeah, I mean, what you're talking about is going from, this is the intriguing thing to me.

You went from one end of the spectrum, literally to the other end. I mean, people don't maybe realize this, but you did not join like your husband is not the pastor of some seeker sensitive church that right.

You, you, you don't even sing anything but the Psalms. Is that right?

We sing Psalms exclusively. That was also the church that I was converted under seeing Psalms exclusively pastors in our denomination, take a vow to die for the doctrine. It is, we are small churches, um, and that is absolutely true.

And yet, you know, there's something about the clarity of that. That was very helpful to me. I don't, why would I leave a, you know, a flourishing, whatever, I hate that word, but you know, we'll use it in any way career, um, uh, to, uh, yeah, um, to join a seeker sensitive church.

I mean, I, and also the other thing that's really key is, um, the particular role that repentance unto life and the Westminster confession of faith have played in that, in that conversion. Um, it, it, it there's, there's an, a hard edge and a warm and a warm welcome and hefty responsibility to being a Christian.

And, um, that was clear to me. That was very clear to me.

And it's very true. Um, I want to get into some of the content. I know we've been going on the bio here, which, which I think is interesting, but, um, you know, we've known, I'm trying to think how long we've course we've never met in person, but I think we've been corresponding for maybe two years or so.

And, um, I don't know if I've ever told you this, but you remind me somewhat of my own mother. And I, and I, it brings to mind what Paul said about, um, you know, treat, um, and I don't mean any offense by this.

Hopefully you don't take it that way, but treat older women as mothers, treat younger women as sisters.

Right. I am, I am honored to be an older woman, one of the mothers of Israel. That is, that is an honor.

Well, you have a child that's my age, I think. So I think I'm on safe ground there. Um, but the, the way that you approach these lies, this is hard hitting stuff you're talking about. And, and this is, I think where you remind me a little bit of my mom in that you're, you have such a good bedside manner, and I don't know even how to do this myself, which is fine.

I'm wired different, but you also, you, you punch it straight and no one has any question about what you believe. And so, um, I do want to talk about some of these lies. Um, there were some specific things though, that I thought were, were very helpful that I have not read in other similar books trying to engage on, on the, on, um, I mean, you, you cover a wide variety of topics, but specifically same-sex attraction, um, and transgenderism.

You talk about envy being the root sin in transgenderism and, you know, that I think I've probably heard it before, but I, I, I don't know if I retained it and I think I'll retain it now because you made a great point about that.

Transgenderism, Coveting, and the Image of God

Um, what, what, when Christians who are in my audience, some of them have kids coming out as saying, I'm a, I'm actually a woman when they're a man and that kind of thing. How do you approach that? Giving the paradigm of that's actually envy.

Right? Well, before you can approach anything, you need to have it clear in your head. So a lot of what I say in this book, you wouldn't necessarily say to your prodigal child, but you need to have it clear in your head that homosexuality, um, you know, I mean, sin makes more work for everybody.

So it's a lot of things, but one of the things that clearly is, is a violation of the creation ordinance, um, transgenderism. It's many things. There are many ways we could talk about it, but one of the things that clearly is, is a violation of the creation mandate.

It rebels against the created order. It is rebellion. Um, specifically with transgenderism, um, the desire, you know, you're not to desire your neighbor's wife and you're not to desire your neighbor's sexual anatomy.

It is covetousness and the, um, and my husband has since I, I, I've just, you know, I wish he would have preached to these sermons before I wrote the book. Cause then those chapters would have been stronger, but he's gone on to preach three sermons on transgenderism, on the sin of transgenderism.

And, um, we have people in our church who have said things like, I wish I had heard that when I was in the seventh grade. Um, because this, you know, what we know to be true about, about gender anxiety, um, is gender anxiety in children is a lot like anorexia.

Um, it's a, it's a body dysphoria. It's a, it's an often, it comes around puberty when your body is changing and you don't like it. And who did, I mean, do you know anyone who just joyfully went through puberty?

I've not met one person. Nope. So, so you, you want to be, um, you want to be mindful that that is a, that is a real feeling, but even the APA, which is pretty liberal rag, I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't go there for as American psychological association, diagnostic and statistically annual says 73 of the time, children with gender anxiety resolve it naturally.

If natal puberty is allowed to, uh, to go through without, um, social transitioning, without cross-sex hormones in that surgery. So this is just nonsense when you hear, you know, would you rather have a dead daughter or a living son?

You know, this is where Christian moms and dads and grandmas and grandpas need to be willing to not be blackmailed. Um, and I think that can be a really hard thing, but no, we, we, we want our children to be dead to sin.

We want them to cut off something, sin, not their healthy body parts, but that we do want them to cut off something. There is something in that.

Um, so for parents raising kids, you know, in early stages, before they hit puberty, it seems to me like if you are training them not to covet from those, they don't, don't covet. You are a friend's toys.

You're already preparing them for this fight.

And if you are teaching them that the seeds of the gospel are in the garden, if you're teaching them that the creation ordinance tells them who they are and when they hear things like, you know, Joe Biden say, transgendered people are made in the image of God here on national transgender visibility day by, by 10, they, you know, I would, I would think, I mean, maybe not 10, I shouldn't say the age, but, but your children should be able to come home and say, mom, dad, that doesn't make sense.

And mom and dad should be able to sit down and say, no, that's right. Image bearing Genesis one 27. It happens when we grow in the knowledge and the righteousness and holiness of God. Transgenderism and homosexuality come from the world, the flesh and the devil.

There is no such thing as being made in the image of God as a trans person or a gay person. Now, you know, son, daughter, Christians don't throw people away. So we're not going to mock them. We're not going to, we're certainly not going to tease them.

We are, we want to pray for them. But we want to remember one very, very important thing. You can't mock God. And so even for the people that make very dangerous decisions, even for the, and I've met these people because Kent and I testify before the legislature and I speak before the Durham school board, which is like going, doing rounds at the psych ward on the night of a full moon.

Did you want to talk about that specifically?

We can, but I'm just, I'm just, what I'm saying is we as Christians, we try to share this, not just with other Christians, but we try to go where the, where it's the hot, where the battle's the hottest and say being made in the image of God comes with responsibilities.

But if you are that person who has, you have had, you have, you have mutilated your body or if you are that father, I've met these people, that father who has castrated your 14 year old son, all because you think Joe Biden was right about the 14th amendment.

There is still hope in the gospel because in the gospel you will have you, your resurrected after you have committed your life to Jesus and you believe, and you put your hope and trust in him, that the, the, the promise is that your resurrected body does not have the scars of your attempt to mock God because God can't be mocked.

And really some of the detransitioners that I know probably understand the, the, the beauty of the resurrection more than, you know, anyone, right? I mean, just because they're just, that is what they're hoping for.

They're longing for a body that doesn't have the scars of what they did to it.

Now you have five lies and I started at four because I really wanted to make sure we got that one. The transgenderism is normal, but since you brought it up, I am curious now, you, you did go to the Durham school board.

And so before we forget, why don't you tell us a little bit about that? Cause that's a bold move, right?

What happened? Yeah. Well, so I have a friend in my church who's a real churchman, his name is Andrew Branch, and he runs a website actually that helps Christians know when these school board meetings are and what they're going to talk about.

And, and about six months ago, maybe, maybe nine months ago, he said to me, Rosaria, you need to memorize as many Psalms as you can sing, you know, and you need a three minute speech to give before the civil magistrate.

I'm like, ah, why do I need that? Well, it was the best writing advice anybody gave me. And so we started to work on these, they were bills, you know, last year, and they've all become laws. And these are all laws that protect children and parents from Joe Biden's anti-bullying legislative moves and his perversion of the ninth, the ninth title nine and the 14th amendment.

And, and so it's really simple. You just, you go before the school board and you get your three minutes and people boo and they hiss and they cry and they rant and you make your point. And, you know, and then afterwards, I always try to meet people and invite people over for dinner.

I've, we've had all kinds of people over for dinner who need the gospel. You really, I mean, if you're interested and just so you know, because I know, you know, Durham geography, it actually, the school, the Durham school board is literally right across the street from First Baptist Church.

So I always, okay.

Yeah. So I'm, I'm always like telling friends there, Hey, you know, I'm going to park here. And if I'm not alive by nine, you know, but it, you know, it, it is very stereotypical. Durham is very blue as you know.

Andrew and I have also spoken before the Wake County school board. They're a little more cleaned up though. Actually, we met two Christians on the school board there, which is exciting. You want to find inroads.

Um, uh, um, it's, but, but I think it, what's important to think about. So I'm part of a denomination that believes in the doctrine of the mediatorial kingship of Christ. That means we believe that Christ is King and he's King now.

And you share the, um, the gospel with, um, the, the powerful elites differently than you do your lost neighbor at your kitchen table. And if that's, if you are a one note wonder, if all you can do is share the gospel in the way you have been trained in, you know, evangelism explosion or something, it would make no sense to go before a school board meeting.

What do you say to these people who literally are hanging millstones around the necks of your children? Are you, you know, what are you going to say? Well, you know, there's a wonderful article up at American Reformer by Caleb Goodnight about that night.

He was actually there as well. And, um, uh, you know, and it's, you know, proclaiming the gospel to the elites and it involves things like Psalm two. Um, and so after we spoke, uh, um, there really was, it was really, it was such a stereotype.

A woman took to the microphone and literally just screamed for her minute. Like, I mean, I don't know if you've ever been in a situation where this happens, but it is very uncomfortable. She didn't say anything.

She just screamed. She screamed. And then at the end, she said, you know, I'm a Durham school licensed school teacher. I thought, Oh, I, you know, everybody who's recommending, you know, um, and, uh, and then she accused, you know, the Christians of being, you know, white educated and articulate and which is of course a crime.

You might get a compliment. I mean, at least the educated and articulate part, you would think. I went up to her afterwards.

I gave her my phone number and I said, look, I'm sorry. I, I want to hear what you have to say, but I can't interpret screaming. So if you would like to just tell me, well, actually, John, what I said, I didn't realize.

I said, if you would just use your words, I would love to hear what you say. And we get in the car. My 20 year old son was my bodyguard that night. And he just said, mom, the last time you told me to use my words, I was four.

Yeah, that's what you're telling a school teacher that, but, but, you know, that's what sin does.

Sin infantilizes you. And so that's just, uh, that's just the reality. And I know that because I wasn't quite there back when I was a gay rights activist and we were speaking before the legislature, we kept the lunatics at home.

We put the PhDs and the lawyers, you know, at the microphone, but, but still, you know, it is, it is what it is. And, um, and Andrew especially has done, I mean, his website is, I think a model of how to get Christians to these things, because he shows you that it's not that hard.

And one of the things that you need, part of why it's this helpful is we do meet people. We do want to share the gospel, but we also want to warn the civil, you know, we want to warn the civil magistrate, right.