Did Big Eva Sell Out to the Left? (Guest Megan Basham)

Now, listen, Megan, I understand you have a problem with what we've been doing here at Big Eva, but I want you to understand

everything you guys have been doing.

Everything you've been doing is bringing in unbiblical influence.

I mean, Joe Biden in our churches.

Hey, if you love Jesus, you're going to have Joe Biden in your church.

Listen, I've never taken money for anything.

I don't know what you're talking about.

Shepherds for sale.

Oh, please.

I have the receipts right here.

That is what I do.

Receipts.

You know what?

Don't try to tell me that.

Just because I spend $30 ,000 on a very cool t -shirt doesn't mean that it's your business.

Okay?

I pay for what I pay for.

Why don't you tell me then where the money for those sneakers comes from?

Sneakers and preachers.

Hey, listen, I put $10 ,000 in the offering plate.

When you can match my offering, then you can match my blessing.

You can have this conversation.

Until then -.

That's a lot of Soros bucks for an ugly shirt, buddy.

Let me tell you something.

George Soros is my kid's godfather.

Don't you dare.

Don't you dare.

Sometimes

I feel a voice with song.

Girl, you're too

polished.

And I hate the YouTube link.

Don't say hate, that sounds violent.

And I feel my troubles on most

Calvinists.

He's not -.

And welcome back to Your Calvinist Podcast.

My name is Keith Foskey, and I am your Calvinist.

It's good to have you all on the show today, and I'm very excited to bring on my guests, but before I do, I just want to remind

you of a few very important things.

Number one, this show is a ministry of song and dance.

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sgfcjacks .org.

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The information is there on the site, and they would be happy to build you a wonderful website as well.

Well, today we are going to be talking about a very important subject.

A new book is coming out called Shepherds for Sale.

It is by Megan Basham, and Megan is a culture reporter for The Daily Wire and the

author of Beside Every Successful Man, A Woman's Guide to Having It All.

She's a frequent contributor to Morning Wire, one of the top 10 news podcasts in the U .S.

She's also written for The Wall Street Journal, The Telegraph, First Things, National Review, and World Magazine,

where she worked as a film and television editor.

And now she can add to her resume, she is a guest on your Calvinist podcast, and I hope that

goes on the top of her resume.

Hi, Megan.

How are you doing?

I was just about to say that.

That now is going to top the list.

Yes.

Yes.

Well, thank you so much for taking the time.

I know you're not feeling very well today, so I want to thank you for coming on and being a part of the show,

even though you're a little bit under the weather.

So thank you for doing that.

Well, thank you.

So if I sound a little like one of Marge Simpson's sisters, you now know why.

Well, you know what, I want to say from the outset, I had an opportunity to read part.

Of your book.

I haven't finished it all yet, but you gave me an advance and I got an opportunity.

So thankful to be able to do that.

And you make some references in the book that made me say, I absolutely love this person

because just like just now, you referenced Marge Simpson.

I grew up in the 80s and the 90s.

That's my generation.

And you said something in one of the early chapters.

You referenced an Eddie Murphy joke about Johnny Carson,

how his wife had the $70 added to the 30 million.

Now I've got $30 million and $70.

I got to tell you, I have used that joke so many times and nobody ever knows what I'm.

Talking about.

I use it all the time because of course, Eddie Murphy's a little off color and a little, a lot.

So, but I'll, I'll talk about that.

I'll talk about the, yeah, Johnny Carson has $30 million and $70 and nobody ever knows.

So I was so thankful to see that.

So let me tell you my, my very young editor who worked on this book with me, who I love,

he's wonderful.

But you know, he's in his, I think he's in his probably late twenties, early thirties.

I'm a little older than that, let's just say.

And he was kind of like, should we keep this?

I don't know.

And I'm like, no, we're keeping that.

I have veto power.

I'm like, even if you think it's weird, I, that joke to me perfectly represents what I'm trying to

capture and we're keeping that.

And yes, so the, the original special is a little off color, but if you went to high school in the nineties, you

probably saw the special, so you'll probably recognize it.

That's just it.

And, and again, for, for, for an older man, and I'm saying I'm older for a guy who

grew up with that.

It absolutely, I was like, I can't one, I can't believe she knows that reference because it's just so I

I've used it so many times and nobody knows, but you knew.

So I was, I was thankful also just, you know, talking about that, talking about growing

up in the, in the eighties and the nineties in the book, as I was looking through some of the information that you

have some of the stuff that you talk about is, is not all contemporary, but you go back to those

times.

You go back to the eighties, nineties, even before, and you talk about how this problem of the shepherds for sale, the, the, the

issue we're going to talk about today, this has been going on for a long time.

And, and, and, and so I know we're going to get into that.

I didn't want to jump, jump ahead too fast, but this is so important.

Uh, and, and I'm, I just want to say one, thank you for doing this.

Thank you for doing the leg work.

It's tremendous work.

Well, as a personal obsession, it was, I, if I didn't do this, I would probably, I would probably just keep ranting at my

family about it.

So they're all grateful that I put it down in a book.

Well, speaking of your family, I did want to ask you, um, and I know you're obviously a very well -known

public figure.

Uh, you are a journalist and, uh, someone who, you know, I mentioned your name on Twitter today had

like 45 people ask me questions.

We're not going to ask all 45 of them cause we won't have time.

But I, I said, Hey, do you guys have any questions?

Um, and they just, boom, immediately people wanted to ask you questions, but, but there may be some people in my audience who are a little

unfamiliar with you.

Um, could you tell us, I gave the bio, but could you tell us a little bit about your, your faith background, how you

became a believer and, uh, and what your faith background is?

Yeah.

So, you know, like a lot of people, um, raised in a Christian home, but I, I don't have the

testimony where I know this is the moment I became a Christian.

Um, but I'm pretty sure I know when I wasn't a Christian.

So, you know, even though I was raised in a Christian home, I, you know, I would say I was compelled to go to church.

I was compelled to go to youth group.

I knew the things to say that you're supposed to say.

And I, I'm sure I believed at that time that I was saved.

Um, but I would say my behavior, once I was out from under the authority of my parents

demonstrated otherwise.

So about the second I got to college, um, could not have led a more prodigal life there

for a number of years.

So, um, you know, I, I kind of joke that the, the, the politest term is party girl.

Uh, so I was, and I was on a party campus, Arizona state university, which, you know, is the butt of every

Hollywood joke for that very reason for being a party campus.

And, um, you know, just involved with a lot of alcohol abuse, drug abuse,

um, just, just not a healthy lifestyle, not a spiritually healthy lifestyle.

Um, but pretty quickly became miserable because if you live like that, you know, there will be a lot of attendant

consequences.

And that included, uh, things like DUIs and, um, busted up friendships and

relationships with roommates.

So, um, when I became a Christian, I was back, I was still in college, but I was back living at my parents' house

and, um, I was an English lit major.

So I worked on my college paper, but I was getting my degree in English lit.

And this is a little different maybe for the typical testimony, but, um, I had a survey

course in my English lit, uh, degree program and the professor in that

course, he was kind of famous for being known as a Bible as lit professor.

And by that he was sort of one of the original deconstructionists or, you know, questioning everything about the historicity of

scripture and kind of showing that, yes, it has much influence as, um, a literary

work, but it's not something that we should necessarily take seriously as a truth by which to

arrange.

Our lives.

And, um, so he gave us this assignment and this was very typical of the kinds of assignments he would give us

where we were supposed to take Thomas Mallory's, uh, I can never say the French

properly.

So we'll just say the death of Arthur and compare it to the earlier 13th century

Vulgate cycle, which if you're not familiar with that, that's just the quest for the Holy grail.

So in the original Vulgate cycle, there are all of these monks

who come out and confront Lancelot.

It's a very different story than the one we know as the Lancelot and Gwenevere story today.

Um, they confront Lancelot for being lustful, being

based, just being given over to sin.

There was nothing of the star crossed romance in that, in that retelling of the, uh, Lancelot

and Gwenevere story.

And Thomas Mallory stripped all of these little Holy lectures that the various monks

give to Lancelot out of his version.

And so the assignment was he, our professor wanted us to explain why without

those sort of Holy lectures, the story became so much more compelling and it became the

romance that we all know today and why it was so much more, uh, superior for Thomas Mallory having made that

decision.

Well, you know, as a hungover profligate, a prodigal myself at that moment, sitting

there reading that manuscript.

And the fact that I even was doing the actual reading is itself a minor miracle because that is not something I did.

Um, I was sitting there reading the material and I was reading these rebukes that the

hermits were giving to Lancelot about how he had been raised with Christian understanding

and been, uh, granted every blessing of material wealth and,

uh, sharp mind and good fortune and all of the things that, you know, a standard

19, 20 year old in United States on a college campus, whose parents are paying for her college

education could certainly claim.

And I just felt it.

I was in such a miserable place.

And as these hermits are rebuking Lancelot, and I talk about this, by the way, in the conclusion of my book, which you may have not gotten

to yet, but I thought it was important at the very end to sort of give my testimony, why I care so much about this stuff.

Um, I, I just felt it.

I just went, this is me.

These 13th century hermits are rebuking me.

This is my life.

I have completely given the Lord no return on all of these blessings that he's given.

Me.

And the second that I was able, I turned my back on all of it and I started crying and I, you know, in very

dramatic fashion, uh, went into the bedroom and closed the.

Door.

And I just prayed and said, you know, Lord, help, help me.

I'm a mess.

And I don't even know what to do about it.

Um, and you know, at that point I started going back to church.

So, you know, whether I was saved before that and had a product, I don't, I really don't know, but I think that was

the moment that I was saved.

If you ask, if God may tell me different in heaven, but I think that was the sealing moment.

Um, and so I started going back to church because I realized I, I need new friends.

I need a new lifestyle.

Um, and I still struggled a little bit.

Um, you know, because when you come out of a heavily sinful lifestyle, it's a suddenly an

entire change of habit that you're looking for.

What do I do with my time and how do I comfort myself when I have, you know, feelings that I don't like.

And so I was still kind of struggling with drug and alcohol abuse for a few months and a pastor at my church.

And I was also kind of pursuing like Christian therapy going, you know, here's the, the

trauma that you've suffered in your past, which was true that is,

you know, manifesting itself in these self -destructive behaviors and all that, but it wasn't really helping.

And so a pastor at my church gave me John MacArthur's, the vanishing conscience.

Um, and that book was like a light switch for me.

He really, the whole point of the book was that it really doesn't matter why you're sinning, just stop sinning.

And for another pop culture reference, I likened it to, um, if you ever saw that famous

mad TV sketch, um, where this woman who has all these compulsive disorders goes

into a therapist with Bob and the therapist is Bob Newhart.

And his response to everything is just stop it.

That's what this book was for me was just like, stop it a little more to it than that, but spiritually

stop it.

And the idea that I just had as a new creation in Christ, the power to just stop sinning was sort

of revolutionary to me.

Um, and so that was really the, the book that I would say sort of launched me on the path of sanctification

that said, you can stop it and you can stop it right now.

I do a, um, a monthly news show.

It's called church soup and it's basically a mix of Saturday night live and, um,

and the old talk soup TV show used to come on.

Well, I use that Bob Newhart, uh, joke in, in so many,

because people will do things in church and I'll play the clip and I'll say there's only one answer to this and it is, and then

I'll play Bob Newhart going, stop it.

So I just, I think, I think you're great.

I think that's awesome.

We're still on the same wavelength here.

I know.

Our pop culture references are connecting and, and so very nice.

And that's interesting what God used to save you.

And that is, um, you know, the fact that it was a, uh, you know, the professor assigning this

reading and you reading something that wasn't necessarily biblical, but pointing to biblical truths and biblical

foundations and the, and the call to repentance that was in that.

Um, so, you know, thank you for sharing that and, and being, being so, so open about it.

So you, obviously you said you were English lit major.

Is that what, uh, you, you knew you wanted to be a journalist or how did, how did you get to where you are now?

I knew I liked writing.

I knew I liked, you know, a life of words in my work.

Um, and I started working on my college paper the last couple of years that I was in school.

And I think that was when I really kind of started considering journalism.

But the more practical consideration was that my husband, uh, was broadcast journalist.

We didn't meet through journalism.

We met at church actually.

But, um, but, um, when, when we met, he was, he, he had not pursued

broadcast journalism because, you know, it's a difficult competitive business.

And he was actually a stockbroker when we met and hated his job.

And when we got married, I was like, look, if you want to go back into broadcasting, cause you have to move a lot.

Um, let's do it now.

Let's, and that was kind of what my first book was about was, um, you know, uh, let's pursue

everything you want to pursue so that I have the freedom to be a stay at home mom.

And, um, so part of the reason I did that particular work, because it was something I could do on a

freelance or contract basis.

So as we were moving from city to city, I could pitch stuff to editors and, um, or eventually,

you know, got an ongoing contract with world.

So it was just something very flexible that as a mom, as a wife, I could do in my spare time as little or as

much as I felt like, you know, I had availability to do.

It.

That's great.

That, that, that's wonderful.

And, uh, obviously you're very good at it.

Uh, you've been able to be quite successful.

And, um, when we talk about the, the book you mentioned earlier, you said you had to

get the book out because if you didn't, you would just be ranting to your family at the, at the dinner

table.

And, and, and that's funny.

I get it.

Um, you, you, you have this passion and desire, but one of the, one of the

questions that came through Twitter and I thought it was an insightful question and I don't think the person who wrote it minute

to sound in any way negative.

So if this, if, if it sounds negative to the here or anybody in the audience, I don't think this was the intention.

The question was what makes you specifically suitable to write a book like.

This?

And I thought, you know, that's, that's a good question because this book, you know, we haven't even talked about really what the subject is, but I

think the title speaks for itself, Shepherds for Sale.

And we're going to get into a little bit more, but, but what is it that made you think I'm the, I'm the person for this?

I'm the right, I'm the right person.

God has me at this time to do this.

You know, I don't know if there was a moment that I said, I am the person who's going to write this book.

It, and I was hardly the first person to notice these things going on.

Other people were noticing and writing about it.

In fact, I was probably a little late to the game.

I feel like, you know, given my background, I, like a lot of people right around

2019, 2020 started experiencing things in my church at that time,

in our Christian school, in the evangelical magazine where I'd worked

at world.

And I always want to preface that they did a tremendous job dealing with some of these pressures and these

sort of conflicting worldly narratives coming in.

So I don't want to confuse anyone on that.

I love world magazine.

They did a great job, but it certainly came into my workplace as well, where there was something of a

battleground over these issues whether it was racial

grievance or how to handle COVID policy or climate change or whatever it was.

I mean, we were experiencing all of these debates.

So I experienced them very much on all of these fronts.

And at first it was just like a little alarm bell, like, okay, I feel like I'm starting to hear things that I don't feel are biblical.

I don't agree with that.

And I wrote about it a little bit and it got a lot of response.

And I wrote about it a little bit at world and it got a lot of response from some of my coworkers who ended up

leaving and going to mostly Christianity today.

In a negative sense.

I was going to say, so they didn't leave for a positive reason.

They're not a Christian today.

Yeah.

And so as I started writing about them and getting that response, I ended up going to Daily Wire

mostly because those who left, it was such conflict that it just got to be a headache and I thought I didn't want to deal

with it anymore.

And just kind of on a whim while interviewing Andrew Klavan at the Daily Wire

for A Peace for World, he mentioned some of the work they were doing.

And I kind of on a whim said, I wonder, can I send you my resume?

Do you think you guys might have a place for me?

And ended up getting called for an interview.

And my husband, I mean, I did not want to go.

I went, I've been here in this comfortable place for 15 plus years.

I don't want to go do this.

And my husband kind of went, look, this stuff is driving you crazy.

Maybe this would be a place where you could write about it.

And he actually encouraged me.

I think you should try it.

I mean, what's the worst that could happen?

You know what I mean?

Just give it a shot.

So took the job at Daily Wire, started writing about it there.

And it was more like the response and the opportunities to continue doing the

reporting just kind of confirmed what I was doing.

So it wasn't like I ever set out with a plan going, I feel that the mantle of the Lord has been set on

me to go and proclaim this message.

It wasn't like that.

It was just kind of like I did the reporting that got response and it just snowballed.

That's, that makes perfect sense.

Um, when we talk about the title, I do want to move into the, to the, to the

book and, and have you described for the audience for, again, for those who maybe haven't heard of the book

and this is their first introduction to it.

Uh, shepherds for sale.

Sounds like we're talking, obviously shepherds are referring to pastors.

We're talking about people who have basically become people who have allowed themselves to be compromised by money.

The title obviously speaks of that, but what is the, if you were going to summarize the book for

someone, if you said here, I want you to read this because this tells you about X, what would you say?

Right.

And I wouldn't say just for sale for money.

I think that is probably the first point I would make that it is also in a sense, it can be for, um,

worldly credibility for a professional reward.

Um, even just to be thought well of in the eyes of men.

I mean, I think all of those things are a kind of currency and I think they all played a role.

That said, there's some hard money and some hard cash being funneled into evangelical institutions too.

So I don't want to undercut the, uh, the headline of the book, but so essentially what it is, is how

I would say either the general culture or

very specifically targeted secular left -wing foundations have been trying to co -opt

the church for the purpose of advancing political priorities, specifically left

-wing political priorities.

Um, and you know, maybe I may co -opt one of the questions myself that you are going to ask, but I've had a number of people

go, well, have you talked about how the right has done that?

And for a few reasons, no, because one, I don't think there's a moral

equivalency between, you know, people who are political activists on clear biblical

mandates, like rescue those being led away to death, I think a child in the womb is a life

and it's unequivocal that we should take a public position on that against

their murder.

Should the church have a clear public position on whether or not humans are causing climate change?

That's something very different, I think.

And I don't think they're morally equivalent as far as, is the guy who's driving an SUV as evil

as the woman who is seeking to murder her child?

I don't think so.

I think those are, you know, very clearly two different categories.

So that was one reason.

Well, if I could, if I could just jump in for a second, cause this is a good point that you, you do make in the book.

And that is the, the false equivalency, which has been made by so many people.

And, and, and again, you mentioned some names in the book of people that, that are very well -known people that people would know, obviously

people I know in the Christian world, leaders in the Christian world who have, who have

connected the pro -life movement to everything from climate change to

immigration to everything, because they've said, you know, the, the, the

love your neighbor is, is the answer to all these questions.

If you're, if, if you're not for climate change and you don't love your neighbor, if you're not for the vaccine, then you don't love your neighbor.

If you're not for immigration, open immigration policy, then you don't love your neighbor.

That was a good point.

I think throughout the book, you, you kept saying, this is their mantra.

This is the thing that they're saying.

And, and, and the, in the, and they equate pro -life with everything.

And, and you said this, I don't know if this is exact quote, but this is, I think this is about what you said.

You says if pro -life means everything, then it doesn't mean anything.

It has to have an intent and the intent of pro -life is referring to abortion, not these other things.

Right.

And, you know, I mean, since kind of what I do is name names, I specifically referenced, um,

a Karen Swallow Pryor interview, uh, who she's a professor and columnist and author where

she said someone asked her, well, would you also include things like pursuing racial justice?

And I can't remember what else, but some other more progressively identified, um,

causes in pro -life.

And she said that, yes, she would.

And my question is, would you do that also for me too, then?

Well, we don't do that with me too, because me too means a specific thing.

And we understand that if you also make me too mean, you know, someone who's passed over for a job because of their

race, then me too, no longer means abusive women, it means this other thing.

So essentially, yeah, all distinctions are erased and it loses its power.

Yeah.

And that, and I remember that from the book, you referenced that.

You also mentioned her since you brought her name up that, that she said wearing a mask was pro -life.

And I just, I remember, uh, you know, just rolling my eyes at that

moment.

I'm like, you know, this is obviously a complete co -opting of, of the meaning

of the idea of pro -life and the, and the heart behind pro -life is, okay, you have to wear this mask, which you, you say it

in the book and I'll say it as well.

Did nothing.

It was not, was not fruitful, was not useful.

It was, it was all a canard.

It was something to distract us and, and make us think we were doing something.

And, um, if this is equated with the pro -life movement, then the pro -life movement has

lost its meaning.

Well, and you're drawing a parallel too, between someone who doesn't want to submit to

some arbitrary government overreach, like demanding that I put this ineffective thing on my

face with the person who's actively seeking to kill a child, this is not a parallel.

So we should not draw, um, a moral equivalency between these two categories.

So that, that is a really important reason to go.

Let's not just make everything pro -life because then it minimizes the

unique wickedness of what abortion is.

Yeah, exactly.

I do want to ask you a question that I'm concerned about from the book, and this is, this is something

that is a thought I had while going through it.

And, um, I'm sure you've thought about this, but I'd love to hear what your, you know, what your

answer would be.

There are going to be those who read this and they're going to see names like George Soros and things like that.

Cause his name comes up quite a bit as a person who has financially invested in this,

uh, co -opting of, of the church and has made, um, has made it a point to do so.

And you make, you know, you draw parallels and make points and, and, and, and show the, show your work,

right.

As to why, why these are the case.

But anytime in circles that I, you know, sometimes find myself in anytime,

the word George Soros or, or a name like his comes up, you have people who immediately

say, well, that's just, that's just conspiracy theory.

You just think that the world is run by these.

And I'm not, I'm not, I'm not the person I'm saying this is, I'm, I'm, I'm pretending for a moment, like this is, this is what I'm, what

I'm expecting.

And I want to know what your response would be if somebody came up and said, you know what, Megan, you, you, you're just a conspiracy theorist.

You're just throwing out these people that, you know, everybody's, you know, the boogeyman of, you know, you know, George

Soros.

And it's just like the people who want to talk about Zuckerberg or other people or, you know, or, uh, uh, uh,

Bill, uh, Gates or somebody like that, you know, you're just throwing out a big name because you know, that's going to get attention, but you don't really

know this kind of thing.

What, how are you going to, do you, do you think that's coming?

And how, what's your response?

I mean, I, I, I, it sort of pre arrived, didn't it?

I mean, it was, it was like when there were rumblings and I think maybe the story wasn't as nailed down as it should have

been about George Soros being behind some of these evangelical immigration efforts,

you know, Baptist press and some others quickly put out these explainers saying, this is a

conspiracy that's been debunked.

And so maybe there was a step missing.

But part of what I show is that their own documents show it.

So you can, you can disbelieve me.

That's fine.

But thankfully something called DC leaks happened and that was around 2016, 2017.

And it was leaks of a lot of people's documents, but among them also George

Soros and in them, their own board books confirm that, yes, we were targeting, for example, Southern

Baptists and conservative evangelicals.

And here is just some of the money that we gave to influence them to support

particular immigration bills.

So, I mean, I don't know what to do with the person who would look at their own words, where they

say, we are targeting Southern Baptists and here's the money we spent and here's the, you know, the return we got for that.

Or, you know, if you go back to their 2012, 2013 memorandum releases, where

one of the VPs in that organization says, we have a problem with religious Americans and

we're never going to get our policy prescriptions enacted if we don't get them to buy into them.

So here's how we should go about doing it.

We should start funding faith fellowships.

We should encourage them to, and I always forget, it's always very corporate

language, you know, but along with the fellowships, communication campaigns and things like that, which essentially

means AstroTurf campaigns.

So they say these things in their own documents, so you don't have to take my word for it.

And I certainly wouldn't.

And that's why, you know, I took a lot of pains to document all of it so that people, I think I actually even

have the links in a lot of the footnotes.

So you could actually go check the links yourself.

Oh, yeah.

And I want you to know, I mean, I'm on board.

I agree with what you're saying and have seen it in what you sent me.

I just, I know this is coming.

And that's why I was asking the question is, is I know there are going to be people in my own life.

I remember, oh boy, it was back, you know, it was after, after COVID and

after the BLM stuff and some of that had happened.

I was in a pastor's meeting with some local guys in town and the statement on social

justice.

I don't know if you're familiar with the Dallas statement on social justice.

Well, that had come out and a few of us had gotten advanced copies of it, had an opportunity to read it and choose whether or not to

sign it.

Well, I had chosen to sign it and this friend had chosen

not to.

And he really began to just sort of,

you know, this is so bad and, you know, this shouldn't be done.

And, you know, it was very much that he had been

he had, he from, from the people that he spent time with and the things it's, it was obvious he had heard

that this statement was bad and it shouldn't be something that endorse.

And, and I had read it, thought it was good.

And so we have this, this disconnect between us.

I know that this man is someone that, you know, in general, I would say is a pretty good dude.

But I think that he certainly had been influenced by people who he respects.

And then you, you name these names.

And I know the guys who we, you know, we all have in years past looked to.

And then and it's scary to think about how much influence that they've had.

Guys like Tim Keller, hugely influential in reform circles and obviously had

had some issues.

Russell Moore in the Baptist circles has, you know, is mentioned in the book.

So it's just I'm, I'm thinking about the, the pastors of local churches who have been

influenced one way or the other and, and not even knowing, I

have to assume this guy had no idea of the things that you've said in this book, that there are, there,

there are powers beyond even the seminaries.

There are powers beyond this that are, that are making these things happen.

And, and it really is a, it's scary.

It's discouraging.

It's partly it's, it's almost seems like

devilish if one would be so bold as to, as to say that.

Well, and just to interject really quick, it is part of why I kind of start out the book with a little history lesson,

because I do think it's important.

It's strange that when we see it in the past, we can go, oh, yeah, that happened.

That was terrible.

But for some reason, when it's happening right around us, it's, it's, it's harder to recognize.

And so I kind of did want to go back to just one example, which was, you know, mainline churches in the

1930s to 1950s, where we have clear documented records of the Communist Party USA

infiltrating their churches and co -opting their record rectors for the purpose of getting

them to sign on to social issues and policies that were very much

in line with the Communist Party USA's stance.

On a variety of issues.

So when you see that, people go, yes, we recognize that that happened.

So I just need them to go, why would this be unique then?

Why would we look at our era and go, it can't be happening now?

Yeah, no, absolutely.

One of the things in the book that, that caught my attention as I was, as I was going through it

is this, the, the, the power of

influence only going in one direction.

Let, let me see if I can clarify what I mean.

You, you, you said in the book that there were those who were calling for evangelical Christians to,

to, to give up their, their hardline political positions, to give up their,

you know, their, their, their standing for certain things like abortion and other things to, to be, to be more

mild.

But it was only going in one direction.

It was only going towards the conservatives.

No one was saying that to those who were on the left.

They were only saying that to those who were on the right.

And I thought that was a hugely important part to, to point out, to say, yes, if, if,

if there was genuine desire among those who were, had influence to say, Hey guys, we

need to calm down the political rhetoric, then it would have been a uniformed call to calm down.

But it wasn't, it was, Hey, you Trump supporters.

Hey, you guys who are against climate change.

Hey, you guys who are against immigration.

And, and I'm just saying, I'm using simple terms, you guys need to calm it down.

But nobody's saying calm down to the other side.

And that, that was a revelation to me.

I hadn't, I had never thought of it that way, but a brilliant point made in the book.

Well, and I think you could see it in pretty stark terms with someone like Michael Ware, who, if you're not

aware of him, he was a former staffer in the Obama administration.

He was a leader in the evangelicals for Biden movement in 2020, and he was

welcomed frequently on the gospel coalition to write for them.

He was featured as sort of a voice that we should be hearing out as somebody who had

a gracious understanding of how to live out Christian principles in the political sphere.

And yet he was encouraging Christians to vote for Biden.

So, I mean, that should have been a disconnect for people in a very obvious way.

And yet, I mean, you also see him interviewed very frequently in the pages of Christianity Today and not

asking any hard hitting questions like, hey, how do you align your party's platform with

the Christian ethics you say you hold?

But, you know, really soft peddling questions like, what does your new political organization offer that none of these others

do?

Things of that nature.

And you just went, OK, would you ever have welcomed a Trump staffer in the pages

of TGC to come talk to us about how we should approach the political sphere as Christians?

And it was so troubling to me to see, for example, Tim Keller

say that these evangelical Trump supporters are making it

more difficult for us to witness.

But not see that as an issue when, I mean, he himself endorsed

Michael Ware's book and spoke glowingly of Michael Ware and there was no challenge there.

Now, look, I'm the first to say Donald Trump poses some major issues for Christians, and I have no

problem with that.

I think my defense is more of the evangelical, average evangelical voter who

chose him when they went into the ballot, into the voting booth.

I'm more coming out in defense of them, if I can explain that clearly, you know, because I get the, well, you're MAGA.

And I'm like, I actually never talk about who I support in primaries.

I'll be pretty clear that I don't think you should vote for Democrats because of their party platform is

just unequivocally unbiblical.

And I don't see how you can support a party that is openly advocating all forms of

perversion and the murder of babies up until birth.

So I'm fully clear on that.

But beyond that, I get people who say, I feel in my conscience that I need to abstain or I need to vote

third party or all of these things.

I get that.

So my defense is more of the voters who made that choice to say, because of our political commitments,

we're voting for this platform that at this point is in support of protecting babies.

We could talk about what's going on right now.

But yeah, I was going to say is, you know, the last two weeks have been a little rough.

Yeah.

And as I as I was nothing as I was going through the book, you know, you make a strong case for

the fact that when we voted for Trump, when I say we, when those who

voted for Trump voted him in, it was with the idea that he had promised to to

put judges in place who did eventually make the difference and certainly would

have been different had had Hillary gone in and been the one who had determined who

those judges were going to be.

Certainly there was in that a something good

and positive happened.

And and Trump is riding that to this day.

Well, you know, I got Roe versus Wade knockdown.

And that's true.

But now we see, you know, the pro -life movement,

the his sort of stepping back from that and other things.

Do you think in the book there's anything that you you may have done differently knowing what you know now?

Or do you think what you said is it's going to stand regardless of what.

Goes forward?

No, I don't think I would write anything different now because that was the choice.

And for the reason that you state that a lot of evangelicals made was, look, one party is offering us

a chance to overturn Roe v. Wade.

The other one is promising us that they will enshrine access to abortion in every

possible way to every possible extremity.

So I think it still was a pretty, you know, reasonable choice and moral choice to have made.

So I wouldn't fault anyone for doing that now.

And and let's be honest, it worked.

He did actually deliver on the promise of those judges.

Now, I mean, if I step away from the book and put on my political analyst hat, am I extremely disappointed in the conversation

that's being held today within the GOP?

Yes.

And I would also point out that, look, it's it's a very new and very immediate conversation.

So by no means do I think that Christian voters should indicate that, hey, we're going to vote for you

guys no matter what.

And we're fine with this.

And, you know, you've just got our unfailing support no matter what you do.

I think we should fight to have this in the platform.

There are petitions being circulated right now to return it.

I think there should be strong rebukes.

And I mean, this is part of what the business of politics is, is that you fight to have your

constituency recognized.

What I know for certain is that, you know, the pro -life plank is not going to get any recognition

whatsoever in the Democrat Party.

So, I mean, I think even there we should use any manner of influence that we can.

I don't really think it's possible.

But to try to convince them to step back from the precipice of extreme wickedness, haven't had any

success.

But right now, yeah, that is a part of politics, is you fight for party recognition.

And that's what we're doing.

Well, maybe we can play that song for them, you know, wish you would step back from that ledge, my friend.

So going back to the book, the the the person who this

book was written for, obviously, is those who are in the church because they're the ones who are going to be most

interested in this.

Obviously, there are going to be people outside.

But the people who are saying, how is this affecting my church?

And that's a question I want to ask you.

How does a person who is in a, you know, First Baptist Church of Jerkwater, Georgia, that's always the place I

mentioned, which is I don't even know if it exists.

But, you know, First Baptist Church of wherever.

And they're reading your book and they're beginning to think, OK, how do I how do I make a

conclusion as to whether or not this has influenced my own church?

How do I how do I how do I judge these types of things?

I don't know enough or I don't I haven't researched enough.

I feel like my pastor is a good guy.

I feel like he loves me.

He does.

He tries to do a good job.

What questions should I be asking?

Do you understand kind of what I do?

How do we apply these truths, I guess, is the question.

And I think that's a really important question, because a lot of pastors, look, they're not omniscient either.

They don't have time to review everything.

And something can be brought in under the guise of, you know, having the best of

intentions.

Like you might see something about, well, we do want to welcome strangers.

Now, what does that mean biblically?

But you may just sort of, you know, have some people in your church who are really gung ho about this topic and saying, hey, we want

to start a Bible study on this.

And so you say yes to it.

So, I mean, one, I hate to tell people I think we're in an era where just a lot more homework is needed

and the hey, this guy's my friend and he's trusted.

So I'm going to go along with this curriculum.

I don't think that works the way that it used to.

I think we're very much in a moment where we need to recognize that those forces are trying to come into the church.

And like if I can give you one example on this LGBTQ issue, I spend a lot of time

showing how these secular foundations are funneling money into the church.

And they say very explicitly to try to change the doctrinal

stance of every Christian church, no matter how conservative, to be affirming,

by which they mean, you know, blessing same sex marriage, homosexual

activity and identities, transgender identities and behaviors.

And so they are doing this and they are training what you can only call an army of activists to come into

churches and quietly and subtly do this.

In fact, they have a program.

One of these groups that is funded by a left wing foundation is called the Reformation Project.

And they have a program called Pastors in Process made to train pastors even

to quietly move their congregations towards LGBTQ

affirmation.

And so what I think you need to know is that, look, even if you're as the pastor, you're not bringing it in

or you don't see your pastor bringing it in, it doesn't mean that there isn't someone in your youth group, some leader who you have not fully

vetted who is bringing this in.

And so one of the things to do, I think, is be as distinct as possible.

Don't be shy about what scripture teaches on these issues just because they're culturally unpopular.

And I think we are seeing a lot of that, whether it's, you know, pronoun hospitality or the whispering

about sexual sin.

I mean, that's become sort of the infamous example.

But this was something that was said by a couple of SBC presidents because one

said it and then the other one plagiarized it.

And I have to say, yeah, they have a they have a tendency.

Those two, but that this kind of thing is coming in.

And I feel like what churches need to be aware of, like if you're assuming that your youth group is all great and

is all safe and you guys don't really need to get into these issues, I just couldn't disagree more because I

know how much effort is going into bringing people into your churches without your ever

noticing it.

And as far as if a new program comes into your church.

Again, you got to do the homework, you got to read it, and then if you see things that don't quite square that

seem legalistic and by legalistic, I mean, if they are demanding that you need

to agree with, let's say, certain legislation in order to show your faithfulness as

a Christian and the Bible isn't clear on that issue, something like what our border policy should be,

then you need to push back.

I mean, I would encourage everyone always to push back respectfully and graciously, but I would ask questions about

why is this something that we're bringing into this church?

And have we looked into who's really backing it?

And what do we know about the organizations behind this?

Because it doesn't take, you know, much peeling back of layers to find out that there's often

nefarious non -Christian actors behind it.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's just the way you were talking just then about the

situation of, OK, if I'm in a Bible study and we begin

to talk about even if I mean, if I were in a Bible study and the topic of immigration came up and

that became the focus and it became the focus of some what was obviously a

politically motivated agenda rather than just saying, you know, maybe how we need to love outsiders or things like that,

but actually begin to drive toward.

And this is and these are the policies that need to be put into place that that would send up a red flag.

And that's the red flag.

You see a lot, by the way, and I didn't mean to interrupt, but I just want to go.

That is probably the one through line you can see that once there's once it gets to, and that's why we need to support

cap and trade, then you should go, hang on a minute, cap and trade is not a clear

biblical issue.

OK, how did we get here?

Well, one of the questions I had from from Twitter, and I do want to ask you a few, if you don't mind, I know we have just a little

while left here and it goes along with this.

I think this question is more in line with, you know,

going a little further.

It says, how do congregations purge the pulpit of leftists and start spiritually forming new leaders

instead of letting woke seminaries do it for them?

I mean, I know I know the answer I have, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

I think it's a hard question, but I'll let you.

That's a really hard question.

And as I think about it, I mean, I think the first thing that we just have to start with is acknowledging when it's

happening.

And I think for a long time we haven't even gotten to that part because it was kind of considered

just in bad taste for a while to openly acknowledge these things.

And then also, I want to say that when we're acknowledging it, let's do it in the right way so that

our concern is not discredited.

Because I have also seen that, too, where people just come out, you know, guns blazing with

and sometimes is language that I wouldn't even use, you know, being flung at pastors.

And I go, OK, maybe we don't do that.

So it feels like the first thing is let's acknowledge it.

But let's also acknowledge it with the sober mindedness that it calls for, that this is a really serious thing that's

happening.

You know, and as far as the seminary, seminaries, that's part of it is.

And I think that's part of where I come in and that's part of my job as journalists is to expose these

things that are going on so that they're not happening under the cover of darkness.

And I mean, I hate to say it, but when you know that institutions are kind of lying about what's happened in the

recent past, for the sake of politeness, we can't sort of let the lying continue.

You know, if a seminary says we never supported critical race theory and they made pages

disappear off their, you know, university websites that clearly showed that, yes, they did,

then, I mean, I think we have to go, yes, you did.

Look, and here they were.

Here's the record of what you did.

Why were you doing that?

What is the explanation?

Yeah, no, I think that's that's very good and very important.

If you don't mind, I'd like to also just add something to this question, because from a pastoral perspective, you know, how

do we purge the pulpits of leftists and start spiritually forming new leaders?

First things first is if I were asked this question as a pastor, you know, if a person was at another church and they

asked me this, I would say, first of all, understand that if you're not in a place where you're if you're not

in a church where you can talk to your pastor and have a conversation with him, then that's a problem.

And I know megachurches, you know, there are megachurches out there where the pastor is kind of behind a security wall and all that thing.

I'm not a huge fan of that.

I don't want to get into that argument right now.

But the issue of if the pastor is not accessible, if the leadership team is not accessible to the congregation and

there's no way to have that conversation, I think that's one of the issues that we've gotten to.

The congregation should be able to address the pastor and ask those type of questions and not

accusatorily or accusatively, but to be able to address that question.

And the second thing is within the seminaries, we should be

we should be training up leaders within the churches.

And again, I know this is this I'm on my soapbox now and I apologize, but.

It is my belief and my hope that we would, as churches, be raising up

godly men for the pulpit and actually training them and the seminaries would become less necessary.

That's my but that's a that's a long term and probably people would say pie in the sky goal.

But I think that we should be teaching.

I believe every church can be an institution of higher learning and actually teach what needs to be taught rather than having to

send men away from the church to be trained.

That's just a whole different conversation.

So sorry to take it off.

Oh, I like it.

So another question that was asked here that this book has been

endorsed by quite a few people.

It was Dr. Askell who brought it to my attention.

I had him on the show and he mentioned the book and told me I should interview you.

And I was grateful that you said yes to the interview.

But the question was, why wasn't this able to be released before the SBC convention?

Because this certainly could have, you know, certainly made it not maybe not made a difference, but but but it

would have been important.

Is there a reason why it's been taking this long to come out?

So I can tell you that that has been so frustrating to me as well.

But it's also one of those things that I'm like, I'm giving it to you, God.

I don't know why things played out the way that they did.

But initially I was with another publisher, Regnery, which was then an

imprint of Salem.

And in fact, it was Regnery that came to me and editor Regnery kind of saw some of my work and said, hey, I think

there's a book in this.

Would you be willing to put together a proposal for us?

And so that was what I did.

And we had kind of planned on a timeline of around late February, early March for

release.

Well, Regnery was sold, then Salem

and I don't know the internal workings, of course, but for whatever reason, they sold Regnery.

A lot of people were let go and it was bought out by another publishing house.

And people just had the opportunity at that point, you know, to stay or go.

And for a variety of reasons, my agent and I just kind of decided, you know, let's shop this around.

And so when we did that, we landed.

We landed at HarperCollins, which I was very, very grateful for, but and they got it out

as quickly as they could.

But, you know, a large publishing house, they had their own editorial calendar plan.

And so they still had to make room for me in their editorial calendar as it is.

And I can just tell you the publishing business is you really have to plan a long way out.

So for them, that was lightning fast to pick up the book in January and get it out by

July was super fast for them.

But, yeah, so it was just kind of one of those things that business got messy.

And, you know, I'm praying and I know and I trust that, you know, the Lord will do with it as he wants to do

with it in this timing.

Amen.

This question actually came through a direct message.

So this person asked, have you, Megan, have you tracked any funny money

being funneled into the church abuse cottage industry players?

And they said Bo's, Roy's, Dentalander, et cetera.

No.

And, you know, I spend a lot, that is the longest chapter of my book.

It's also I think it's next to last chapter.

So you won't have gotten to it before.

But I spend a lot of time on what happened with the abuse issue in the last couple of years in

evangelicalism.

And I don't know for sure that, you know, no money has ever been a

factor anywhere there.

But to the extent that I did and I did a lot of research into this issue, I never saw that being the

driving factor.

But what I did see was very much this influence of Me Too framing

and how we think about what abuse is as an oppressor and oppressed dynamic

rather than an understanding of does someone have culpability because, you know, they're of age

and they can make decisions.

They have agency and they're choosing to sin or not sin.

That has not, we have changed our thinking now within the church in what I believe are very unbiblical

ways to try to say, well, if there's a power imbalance, it renders an adult woman

morally inculpable.

So she is not responsible for her decisions.

And I actually think that's very unbiblical.

And I think it's wrong if you're a pastor who's shepherding women to teach women that

if someone holds some form of power over me, then I am no longer responsible for any sinful

choice I might make.

Because I think that leaves women's consciences burdened.

And you're putting up a kind of separation between her and God then that needs to be dealt with.

And so I feel like that should be a very heavy thing for pastors to have absorbed this idea

of what abuse between adults is.

And because I want to be clear that we have very real cases of abuse within the church

and they should always be dealt with in the strongest terms possible.

You report it to authorities, you prosecute to the full extent of the law.

So I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about these sort of murky cases that we saw with the Guidepost report in the SBC

and allegations between adults where, you know, an adult woman says, well,

I was on the same campus as this professor for two years.

And even though some sort of relationship, sexual relationship continued between us for

more than 10 years, it was abuse the entire

time.

And I don't really have to explain why.

And everyone just accepts that.

And we're all being asked to sign on to massive reforms based on stories like this.

And I have a problem with that because there's just nothing biblical in this idea of it's about a power

imbalance as opposed to individual sinful choices.

And, you know, when I looked at Rachel Denhollander, I spent a lot of time on her as well.

And I don't know what to say there other than I obviously see a lack of

discernment.

And I think that's pretty clear in what I write about it in the book, even to the sense that

if you remember the Christine Blasey Ford hearings for

Justice Brett Kavanaugh, you know, she wrote a piece where she basically said Kavanaugh's or

Blasey Ford's complete lack of evidence, lack of recollection,

really any credibility to her story at all could be put down to trauma.

And that trauma causes this inability to remember things.

And apparently also trauma causes your own witnesses to discredit you and say that

didn't happen.

So, I mean, to me, all I can look at in that situation is

go because someone has behaved heroically after suffering something.

And she absolutely did.

I mean, I think we can all look at the testimony she gave in the Nassar trial as heroic.

But when that person is made the exclusive authority and voice on that issue,

when they didn't really have any other

standing to do so other than the fact that they experienced that themselves, that is maybe not

the wisest course of action.

That is actually maybe somebody who's so emotionally invested in the issue that they don't have the distance to

stand back and judge rightly on how these things should be approached.

So that was really what I came to.

And I don't know really what motivates, for example, Den Hollander and some of the other names that were just brought up.

I mean, I'll just say bluntly, I think that that is the dominant cultural framing and people have absorbed the

dominant cultural framing because let me tell you, I learned from experience that it's real unpopular to step

up and go, hey, you know what?

I actually don't think this is biblical.

And I do think women are often responsible for their own choices and we're doing them a disservice to

deny it.

You get called some real awful names when you say that.

And look, you can make a big career on it, too.

No doubt.

We'll make this the last question.

I know we've been going for an hour now and I appreciate your time.

Don't want to don't want to take advantage of you, take you away from anything else.

So this question, though, is an opinion question.

And you may or may not feel like this is something that.

Well, let me ask the question, I think you'll understand what I mean.

It says almost every evangelical I know who deconstructed and left

Christianity was led out of the faith by progressive politics.

This is a this is a quote from Joel Berry.

Yeah, yes.

And the question is, have her comment, please have Megan comment on this.

What are your thoughts about the do you think deconstructionism, which is basically a relatively recent way

of using the term apostasy?

It's basically, you know, people who deconstruct, who who leave the faith and take it apart and say, these are the things

I disagree and this is why I'm leaving.

Or they reconstruct it in a way that it's not historically Christianity.

Do you think that this has been at least in part influenced by progressive leftist.

Politics?

Yeah, I mean, I think anecdotally it's really hard to deny it.

And more specifically, I can say that almost every case of deconstruction that I personally

know of, it involved a desire to find a way

to be OK with homosexuality in some sense.

And I think that was part of what's driving the deconstruction.

Like, I don't know any deconstructionist, is that how you would refer to them?

Any deconstructionist who has not shifted on that particular issue.

And I think that's why it is such a key issue.

Like when we look at, you know, Jude 1, the sexual immorality issue is so important

when we're to be looking for the wolves who are infiltrating and coming in.

That's the key red flag right there, because we know that we're always going to live in a culture that is

looking for permission to be as sexually perverse as possible.

And so you never want to be a part of a church that's looking for ways to accommodate that.

So, yeah, I mean, I can't disagree with it.

And I look for a rainbow flag almost every time behind it.

Yeah, no, and isn't that funny, though, what you just said is every time we see deconstruction, it's always they

always reconstruct with a with a much different political position.

It's almost always the rainbow flag.

It's almost always even even things that you wouldn't think about, like like you mentioned in the climate change and immigration.

It's almost like everything falls on a line.

It's like if you fall off this cliff, you're going to fall off this cliff, you know, you're going to be painted

with a with a with a rainbow colored flag and you're going to have a different.

You mentioned and I know we got to close, but you mentioned Gavin

Orton, Orton's position on climate change.

And I'm you know, Gavin's written some great things and I'm appreciative of some of his work.

But when I heard about that, because I didn't realize that, but just to hear and again, it's like

to equate this with a moral issue, if you don't agree with this moral

issue, then you're then you have you know, you're not being a good Christian.

And I know that's not exactly what he said, but that's essentially.

Well, and they were politicizing the church.

If you don't agree to make this issue a part of what the church speaks out on.

I mean, I thought that, you know, I don't know what his motives are, but I thought that was a very strange, you

know, exchange to go.

It's political if you don't take up the issue of climate change.

When look, scientifically, I'm married to a meteorologist, so I can tell you there's a lot of room for scientific

debate there.

And it's one that I'm fine having.

I just bristle at making it something on which the church must speak.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, Miss Megan, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

I'm grateful to have the opportunity to talk to you and I could continue to talk to you all day, but I want to

be respectful of your time.

And I know you have certainly a life to get back to.

So I want to thank you for giving us this hour of your time and tell everybody when the book

comes out.

I think I mentioned the date earlier, but I don't remember if I did.

So let's make sure everybody knows.

Book comes out July 30th, so in just about two weeks.

And, you know, you can order on Barnes & Noble, Amazon, I think probably all the major book platforms.

Or if you go directly to HarperCollins website, if you Google it, you know, pull them up and you can find

independent bookstores to order from as options as well.

Perfect.

Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

I really appreciate it.

Thanks so much for having me.

Absolutely.

And I want to thank you guys for being a part of the show today.

And I want to remind you that if you enjoyed today's show, please hit the thumbs up.

The thumbs up button.

And if you didn't enjoy today's show, please hit the thumbs down button twice.

Thank you for listening to your Calvinist podcast.

My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.

May God bless you.