Did Big Eva Sell Out to the Left? (Guest Megan Basham)

Now, listen, Megan, I understand you have a problem with what we've been doing here at Big Eva, but I want you to understand everything you guys have been doing.

Everything you've been doing is bringing in unbiblical influence. I mean, Joe Biden in our churches.

Hey, if you love Jesus, you're going to have Joe Biden in your church. Listen, I've never taken money for anything.

I don't know what you're talking about. Shepherds for sale. Oh, please. I have the receipts right here. That is what I do.

Receipts. Don't try to tell me that. Just because I spend $30 ,000 on a very cool t -shirt doesn't mean that it's your business.

Okay? I pay for what I pay for. Okay, why don't you tell me then where the money for those sneakers comes from? Sneakers and preachers.

Hey, listen, I put $10 ,000 in the offering plate. When you can match my offering, then you can match my blessing. You can have this conversation.

That's a lot of Soros bucks for an ugly shirt, buddy. Let me tell you something. George Soros is my kid's godfather.

Don't you dare. Don't you dare. Sometimes I feel the weight of the world fall down on me so heavy.

And I need a friendly voice with some good theology.

Calvinist to be speaking, so I mix a manly drink. Pepsi and shoe polish. And I hit the

YouTube link. Don't say hit. That sounds violent. And I feel my troubles all melt away.

It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Borosky.

Beards and bow ties. Laughs till sunrise.

It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Borosky. He's not like most

Calvinists. He's nice. And welcome back to your

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Well, today we are going to be talking about a very important subject. A new book is coming out called

Shepherds for Sale. It is by Megan Basham. And Megan is a culture reporter for The Daily Wire and the author of Beside Every Successful Man, A Woman's Guide to Having It All.

She's a frequent contributor to Morning Wire, one of the top 10 news podcasts in the U .S.

She's also written for The Wall Street Journal, The Telegraph, First Things, National Review, and World Magazine, where she worked as a film and television editor.

And now she can add to her resume. She is a guest on your Calvinist podcast.

And I hope that goes on the top of her resume. Hi, Megan. How are you doing? I was just about to say that. That now is going to top the list.

Yes, yes. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're not feeling very well today. So I want to thank you for coming on and being a part of the show, even though you're a little bit under the weather.

So thank you for doing that. Well, thank you. Yes. So if I sound a little like one of Marge Simpson's sisters, you now know why.

Well, you know what? I want to say from the outset, I had an opportunity to read part of your book.

I haven't finished it all yet, but you gave me an advance and I got an opportunity. So thankful to be able to do that.

And you make some references in the book that made me say, I absolutely love this person.

Because just like just now, you referenced Marge Simpson. I grew up in the 80s and the 90s. That's my generation.

And you said something in one of the early chapters. You referenced an Eddie Murphy joke about Johnny Carson, how his wife had the $70 added to the $30 million.

Now I've got $30 million and $70. I got to tell you,

I have used that joke so many times and nobody ever knows what I'm talking about. I use it all the time because of course,

Eddie Murphy's a little off color and a little, a lot. But I'll talk about that.

I'll talk about that. Yeah. Johnny Carson has $30 million and $70 and nobody ever knows.

So I was so thankful to see that. So let me tell you, my very young editor who worked on this book with me, who

I love, he's wonderful. But he's in his, I think he's in his probably late 20s, early 30s.

I'm a little older than that, let's just say. And he was kind of like, should we keep this?

And I'm like, no, we're keeping that. I have veto power. I'm like, even if you think it's weird, that joke to me perfectly represents what

I'm trying to capture. And we're keeping that. And yeah, so the original special is a little off color.

But if you went to high school in the nineties, you probably saw the special. So you probably recognize it.

That's just it. And again, for an older man, and I'm saying I'm older, for a guy who grew up with that, it absolutely,

I was like, I can't, one, I can't believe she knows that reference because it's just so, I've used it so many times and nobody knows, but you knew.

So I was thankful. Also, just talking about that, talking about growing up in the eighties and the nineties, in the book, as I was looking through, some of the information that you have, some of the stuff that you talk about is not all contemporary, but you go back to those times, you go back to the eighties, even before, and you talk about how this problem of the shepherd's for sale, the issue we're going to talk about today, this has been going on for a long time.

And so I know we're going to get into that. I didn't want to jump ahead too fast, but this is so important.

And I just want to say, one, thank you for doing this. Thank you for doing the leg work. It's tremendous work.

Well, it was a personal obsession. If I didn't do this, I would probably just keep ranting at my family about it.

So they're all grateful that I put it down in a book. Well, speaking of your family,

I did want to ask you, and I know you're obviously a very well -known public figure.

You are a journalist and someone who, I mentioned your name on Twitter today, had like 45 people ask me questions.

We're not going to ask all 45 of them because we won't have time. But I said, hey, do you guys have any questions? And they just, boom, immediately people wanted to ask you questions.

But there may be some people in my audience who are a little unfamiliar with you. Could you tell us,

I gave the bio, but could you tell us a little bit about your faith background, how you became a believer, and what your faith background is?

Yeah. So, you know, like a lot of people, I'm raised in a Christian home, but I don't have the testimony where I know this is the moment

I became a Christian. But I'm pretty sure I know when I wasn't a Christian. So, you know, even though I was raised in a

Christian home, I would say I was compelled to go to church. I was compelled to go to youth group. I knew the things to say that you're supposed to say.

And I'm sure I believed at that time that I was saved. But I would say my behavior, once I was out from under the authority of my parents, demonstrated otherwise.

So about the second I got to college, could not have led a more prodigal life there for a number of years.

So, you know, I kind of joke that the politest term is party girl.

So I was, and I was on a party campus, Arizona State University, which, you know, is the butt of every

Hollywood joke for that very reason, for being a party campus. And, you know, just involved with a lot of alcohol abuse, drug abuse, just not a healthy lifestyle, not a spiritually healthy lifestyle.

But pretty quickly became miserable because if you live like that, you know, there will be a lot of attendant consequences.

And that included things like DUIs and busted up friendships and relationships with roommates.

So when I became a Christian, I was back, I was still in college, but I was back living at my parents' house.

And I was an English Lit major. So I worked on my college paper, but I was getting my degree in English Lit.

And this is a little different, maybe for the typical testimony, but I had a survey course in my

English Lit degree program. And the professor in that course, he was kind of famous for being known as a

Bible as Lit. Professor. And by that, he was sort of one of the original deconstructionists, sort of, you know, questioning everything about the historicity of scripture and kind of showing that, yes, it has much influence as a literary work, but it's not something that we should necessarily take seriously as a truth by which to arrange our lives.

And so he gave us this assignment, and this was very typical of the kinds of assignments he would give us where we were supposed to take

Thomas Malory's, I can never say the French properly. So we'll just say the death of Arthur and compare it to the earlier 13th century

Vulgate cycle, which if you're not familiar with that, that's just the quest for the Holy Grail. So in the original

Vulgate cycle, there are all of these monks who come out and confront

Lancelot. It's a very different story than the one we know as the Lancelot and Gwenevere story today. They confront

Lancelot for being lustful, being base, just being given over to sin.

There was nothing of the star -crossed romance in that retelling of the

Lancelot and Gwenevere story. And Thomas Malory stripped all of these little holy lectures that the various monks give to Lancelot out of his version.

And so the assignment was, our professor wanted us to explain why without those sort of holy lectures, the story became so much more compelling and it became the romance that we all know today and why it was so much more superior for Thomas Malory having made that decision.

Well, you know, as a hungover profligate prodigal myself at that moment, sitting there reading that manuscript, and the fact that I even was doing the actual reading is itself a minor miracle because that is not something

I did. I was sitting there reading the material and I was reading these rebukes that the hermits were giving to Lancelot about how he had been raised with Christian understanding and been granted every blessing of material wealth and a sharp mind and good fortune and all of the things that, you know, a standard 19, 20 year old in United States on a college campus whose parents were paying for her college education could certainly claim and I just felt it.

I was in such a miserable place and as these hermits are rebuking Lancelot, and I talk about this, by the way, in the conclusion of my book, which you may have not gotten to yet, but I thought it was important at the very end to sort of give my testimony why

I care so much about this stuff. I just felt it. I just went, this is me.

These 13th century hermits are rebuking me. This is my life. I have completely given the

Lord no return on all of these blessings that he's given me and the second that I was able, I turned my back on all of it and I started crying and I, you know, in very dramatic fashion, went into the bedroom and closed the door and I just prayed and said, you know,

Lord, help. Help me. I'm a mess and I don't even know what to do about it and, you know, at that point,

I started going back to church. So, you know, whether I was saved before that and had a product,

I really don't know but I think that was the moment that I was saved. If you ask, God may tell me different in heaven but I think that was the sealing moment.

And so I started going back to church because I realized I need new friends, I need a new lifestyle and I still struggled a little bit, you know, because when you come out of a heavily sinful lifestyle, it's suddenly an entire change of habit that you're looking for.

What do I do with my time and how do I comfort myself when I have, you know, feelings that I don't like?

And so I was still kind of struggling with drug and alcohol abuse for a few months and a pastor at my church, and I was also kind of pursuing, like,

Christian therapy, going, you know, here's the trauma that you've suffered in your past, which was true, that is, you know, manifesting itself in these self -destructive behaviors and all that, but it wasn't really helping.

And so a pastor at my church gave me John MacArthur's The Vanishing Conscience. And that book was like a light switch for me.

He really, the whole point of the book was that it really doesn't matter why you're sinning, just stop sinning.

And for another pop culture reference, I likened it to, if you ever saw that famous mad

TV sketch where this woman who has all these compulsive disorders goes into a therapist with Bob, and the therapist is

Bob Newhart, and his response to everything is just stop it. Stop it. That's right.

That's what this book was for me, was just, like, stop it. A little more to it than that, but spiritually, stop it.

And the idea that I just had as a new creation in Christ, the power to just stop sinning, was sort of revolutionary to me.

And so that was really the book that I would say sort of launched me on the path of sanctification that said, you can stop it and you can stop it right now.

I do a monthly news show. It's called

Church Soup. And it's basically a mix of Saturday Night Live and the old

Talk Soup TV show that used to come on. Well, I used that Bob Newhart joke in so many, because people will do things in church, and I'll play the clip, and I'll say, there's only one answer to this, and it is, and then

I'll play Bob Newhart going, stop it. So I just, I think you're great. We're still on the same wavelength here.

I know. Our pop culture references are connecting. And so very nice.

And that's interesting what God used to save you. And that is, you know, the fact that it was a, you know, the professor assigning this reading, and you reading something that wasn't necessarily biblical, but pointing to biblical truths and biblical foundations and the call to repentance that was in that.

So, you know, thank you for sharing that and being so open about it.

So you obviously, you said you were English lit major. Is that what, you knew you wanted to be a journalist?

Or how did you get to where you are now? I knew I liked writing. I knew I liked, you know, a life of words in my work.

And I started working on my college paper the last couple of years that I was in school. And I think that was when

I really kind of started considering journalism. But the more practical consideration was that my husband, was a broadcast journalist.

We didn't meet through journalism. We met at church, actually. But when we met, he was, he had not pursued broadcast journalism because, you know, it's a difficult, competitive business.

And he was actually a stockbroker when we met and hated his job. And when we got married,

I was like, look, if you want to go back into broadcasting, because you have to move a lot, let's do it now. And that was kind of what my first book was about, was, you know, let's pursue everything you want to pursue so that I have the freedom to be a stay -at -home mom.

And so part of the reason I did that particular work, because it was something I could do on a freelance or contract basis.

So as we were moving from city to city, I could pitch stuff to editors and, or eventually, you know, got an ongoing contract with World.

So it was just something very flexible that as a mom, as a wife, I could do in my spare time as little or as much as I felt like, you know,

I had availability to do it. That's great. That's wonderful. And obviously, you're very good at it.

Thank you. to be quite successful. And when we talk about the book, you mentioned earlier, you said you had to get the book out because if you didn't, you would just be ranting to your family at the dinner table.

And that's funny. I get it. You have this passion and desire.

But one of the, one of the questions that came through Twitter, and I thought it was an insightful question. And I don't think the person who wrote it meant it to sound in any way negative.

So if this, if it sounds negative to the hearer or anybody in the audience, I don't think this was the intention. The question was, what makes you specifically suitable to write a book like this?

And I thought, you know, that's a good question because this book, you know, we haven't even talked about really what the subject is, but I think the title speaks for itself,

Shepherds for Sale. And we're going to get into a little bit more, but what is it that made you think I'm the, I'm the person for this?

I'm the right person. God has me at this time to do this. You know, I don't know if there was a moment that I said,

I am the person who's going to write this book. And I was hardly the first person to notice these things going on.

Other people were noticing and writing about it. In fact, I was probably a little late to the game.

I feel like, you know, given my background, I, like a lot of people right around 2019, 2020, started experiencing things in my church at that time, in our

Christian school, in the evangelical magazine where I worked at World.

And I always want to preface that they did a tremendous job dealing with some of these pressures and these sort of conflicting worldly narratives coming in.

So I don't want to confuse anyone on that. I love World Magazine. They did a great job. But it certainly came into my work workplace as well, where there was something of a battleground over these issues, whether it was racial grievance or how to handle

COVID policy or climate change or whatever it was. I mean, we were experiencing all of these debates.

So I experienced them very much on all of these fronts. And at first, it was just like a little alarm bell, like, okay,

I feel like I'm starting to hear things that I, I don't feel are biblical. I don't agree with that. And I wrote about it a little bit and it got a lot of response.

And I wrote about it a little bit at World and it got a lot of response from some of my co -workers who ended up leaving and going to mostly

Christianity today in a negative sense. I was going to say, so they didn't leave for a positive reason and they went to Christianity today.

Yeah. And so as I started writing about them and getting that response,

I ended up going to Daily Wire mostly because those who left, it was such conflict that it just got to be a headache.

And I thought I didn't want to deal with it anymore. And on, just kind of on a whim while interviewing

Andrew Klavan at the Daily Wire for A Peace for World, he mentioned some of the work they were doing.

And I kind of on a whim said, I wonder, can I send you my resume? Do you think you guys might have a place for me? And ended up getting called for an interview and my husband,

I mean, I did not want to go. I went, I've been here in this comfortable place for 15 plus years.

I don't want to go do this. And my husband kind of went, look, this stuff is driving you crazy.

Maybe this would be a place where you could write about it. And he actually encouraged me, I think you should try it. I mean, what's the worst that could happen?

You know what I mean? Just give it a shot. So took the job at Daily Wire, started writing about it there.

And it was more like the response and the opportunities to continue doing the reporting just kind of confirmed what

I was doing. So it wasn't like I ever set out with a plan going, I feel that the mantle of the

Lord has been set on me to go and, you know, proclaim this message. It wasn't like that. It was just kind of like I did the reporting that got response and it just snowballed.

That makes perfect sense. When we talk about the title,

I do want to move into the book and have you describe for the audience, for again, for those who maybe haven't heard of the book and this is their first introduction to it,

Shepherds for Sale. Sounds like we're talking, obviously, shepherds referring to pastors. We're talking about people who have basically become people who have allowed themselves to be compromised by money.

The title obviously speaks of that. But what is the, if you were going to summarize the book for someone, if you said here,

I want you to read this because this tells you about X, what would you say? Right.

And I wouldn't say just for sale for money. I think that is probably the first point I would make that it is also, in a sense, it can be for worldly credibility, for professional reward, even just to be thought well of in the eyes of men.

I mean, I think all of those things are a kind of currency and I think they all played a role. That said, there's some hard money and some hard cash being funneled into evangelical institutions too.

So I don't want to undercut the headline of the book. But so essentially what it is, is how

I would say either the general culture or very specifically targeted secular left -wing foundations have been trying to co -opt the church for the purpose of advancing political priorities, specifically left -wing political priorities.

And maybe I may co -opt one of the questions myself that you were going to ask, but I've had a number of people go, well, have you talked about how the right has done that?

And for a few reasons, no. Because one, I don't think there's a moral equivalency between people who are political activists on clear biblical mandates like rescue those being led away to death.

I think a child in the womb is a life and it's unequivocal that we should take a public position on that against their murder.

Should the church have a clear public position on whether or not humans are causing climate change?

That's something very different, I think. And I don't think they're morally equivalent as far as, is the guy who's driving an

SUV as evil as the woman who is seeking to murder her child? I don't think so.

I think those are, you know, very clearly two different categories. So that was one reason.

Well, if I could just jump in for a second, because this is a good point that you do make in the book. And that is the false equivalency which has been made by so many people.

And again, you mentioned some names in the book of people that are very well known, people that people would know. Obviously, people

I know in the Christian world, leaders in the Christian world who have connected the pro -life movement to everything from climate change to immigration, to everything, because they've said, you know, the love your neighbor is the answer to all these questions.

If you're not for climate change, then you don't love your neighbor. If you're not for the vaccine, then you don't love your neighbor.

If you're not for immigration, open immigration policy, then you don't love your neighbor. That was a good point.

I think throughout the book, you kept saying this is their mantra. This is the thing that they're saying. And they equate pro -life with everything.

And you said this. I don't know if this is exact quote, but this is I think this is about what you said. You said if pro -life means everything, then it doesn't mean anything.

It has to have an intent. And the intent of pro -life is referring to abortion, not these other things.

Right. And, you know, I mean, that's kind of what I do is name names. I specifically referenced a

Karen Swallow Pryor interview, who she's a professor and columnist and author, where she said someone asked her, well, would you also include things like pursuing racial justice?

And I can't remember what else, but some other more progressively identified causes in pro -life.

And she said that, yes, she would. And my question is, would you do that also for Me Too then? Well, we don't do that with Me Too because Me Too means a specific thing.

And we understand that if you also make Me Too mean, you know, someone who's passed over for a job because of their race, then

Me Too no longer means abuse of women. It means this other thing. So essentially, yeah, all distinctions are erased and it loses its power.

Yeah, and I remember that from the book, you referenced that. You also mentioned her, since you brought her name up, that she said wearing a mask was pro -life.

And I just I remember, you know, just rolling my eyes at that moment.

I'm like, you know, this is obviously a complete co -opting of of the meaning of the idea of pro -life and the heart behind pro -life is,

OK, you have to wear this mask, which you say in the book and I'll say it as well, did nothing. It was not fruitful, was not useful.

It was it was all a canard. It was something to distract us and make us think we were doing something.

And if this is equated with the pro -life movement, then the pro -life movement has lost its meaning.

Well, and you're drawing a parallel, too, between someone who doesn't want to submit to some arbitrary government overreach, like demanding that I put this ineffective thing on my face with the person who's actively seeking to kill a child.

This is not a parallel. So we should not draw a moral equivalency between these two categories.

So that that is a really important reason to go. Let's not just make everything pro -life because then it minimizes the unique wickedness of what abortion is.

Yeah, exactly. I do want to ask you a question that I'm concerned about from the book, and this is this is something that is thought

I had while going through it. And I'm sure you've thought about this, but I'd love to hear what your, you know, what your answer would be.

There are going to be those who read this and they're going to see names like George Soros and things like that, because his name comes up quite a bit as a person who has financially invested in this co -opting of the church and has made has made it a point to do so.

And you make, you know, you draw parallels and make points and show the show the truth. Show your work, right?

As to why why these are the case. But any time in circles that I, you know, sometimes find myself in, anytime the word

George Soros or a name like his comes up, you have people who immediately say, well, that's just that's just conspiracy theory.

You just think that the world is run by these. And I'm not I'm not I'm not the person I'm pretending for a moment.

Like this is this is what I'm what I'm expecting. And I want to know what your response would be if somebody came up and said, you know what,

Megan, you you're just a conspiracy theorist. You're just throwing out these people that, you know, everybody's, you know, the boogeyman of, you know, you know,

George Soros. And it's just like the people who want to talk about Zuckerberg or other people or, you know, or Bill Gates or somebody like that.

You know, you're just throwing out a big name because you know that's going to get attention, but you don't really know this kind of thing.

How are you going to do? Do you think that's coming and what's your response? I mean, I it's sort of pre arrived, didn't it?

I mean, it was it was like when there were rumblings and I think maybe the story wasn't as nailed down as it should have been about George Soros being behind some of these evangelical immigration efforts.

You know, Baptist Press and some others quickly put out these explainers saying this is a conspiracy that's been debunked.

And so maybe there was a step missing. But part of what I show is that their own documents show it.

So you can you can disbelieve me. That's fine. But thankfully, something called DC Leaks happened.

And that was around 2016, 2017. And it was leaks of a lot of people's documents.

But among them also George Soros and in them their own board books confirm that, yes, we were targeting, for example,

Southern Baptists and conservative evangelicals. And here is just some of the money that we gave to influence them to support particular immigration bills.

So, I mean, I don't know what to do with the person who would look at their own words where they say we are targeting

Southern Baptists and here's the money we spent. And here's the return we got for that. Or, you know, if you go back to their 2012, 2013 memorandum releases where one of the

VPs in that organization says we have a problem with religious Americans and we're never going to get our policy prescriptions enacted if we don't get them to buy into them.

So here's how we should go about doing it. We should start funding faith fellowships. We should encourage them to.

And I always forget it's always very corporate language, you know, but along with the fellowships, communication campaigns and things like that, which essentially means

AstroTurf campaigns. So they say these things in their own documents. So you don't have to take my word for it.

And I certainly wouldn't. And that's why, you know, I took a lot of pains to document all of it so that people

I think I actually even have the links in a lot of the footnotes so you could actually go check the links yourself.

Oh, yeah, and I want you to know, I mean, I'm I'm I'm on board. I, I agree with what you're saying and have seen it in what you sent me.

I just I know this is coming. And that's why I was asking the question is, is I know they're going to be people in my own life.

I remember, oh boy, it was back. You know, it was after after COVID and after the

BLM stuff and some of that had happened. I was in a pastor's meeting with some local guys in town and the statement on social justice.

I don't know if you're familiar with the Dallas statement on social justice. Well, that had come out and a few of us had gotten advanced copies of it, had an opportunity to read it and choose whether or not to sign it.

Well, I had chosen to sign it and the this this friend had chosen not to.

And he and he really began to just sort of, you know, this is so bad and, you know, this shouldn't be done.

And, you know, it was it was it was very much that he had been.

He had he from from the people that he spent time with and the things it's it was obvious he had heard that this statement was bad and it shouldn't be something that is endorsed.

And and I had read it, thought it was good. And so we have this this disconnect between us.

I know that this man is someone that, you know, in general, I would say is a pretty good dude. But I think that he certainly had been influenced by people who he respects.

And then you you name these names. And I know the guys who we you know, we all have in years past looked to and then and it's scary to think about how much influence that they've had.

Guys like Tim Keller, hugely influential in reform circles and obviously had had some issues.

Russell Moore in the Baptist circles has, you know, is mentioned in the book.

So it's just I'm thinking about the the pastors of local churches who have been influenced one way or the other and and not even knowing

I have to assume this guy had no idea of the things that you've said in this book, that there are there there are powers beyond.

Even the seminaries, there are powers beyond this that are that are making these things happen. And and it really is a it's scary.

It's discouraging. It's partly it's it's almost seems like devilish.

If one would be so bold as to as to say that. Well, and just to interject really quick, it is part of why

I kind of start out the book with a little history lesson, because I do think it's important. It's strange that when we see it in the past, we can go, oh, yeah, that happened.

That was terrible. But for some reason, when it's happening right around us, it's it's it's harder to recognize.

And so I kind of did want to go back to just one example, which was, you know, mainline churches in the 1930s to 1950s, where we have clear documented records of the

Communist Party USA infiltrating their churches and co -opting their record rectors for the purpose of getting them to sign on to social issues and policies that were very much in line with the

Communist Party USA stance on a variety of issues. So when you see that, people go, yes, we recognize that that happened.

So I just need them to go. Why would this be unique then? Why would we look at our era and go?

It can't be happening now. Yeah, no, absolutely. One of the things in the book that that caught my attention as I was as I was going through it is this.

The the the power of. Influence. Only going in one direction.

Let me see if I can clarify what I mean. You said in the book that there were those who were calling for evangelical

Christians to to to give up their their hard line political positions, to give up their, you know, their their their standing for certain things like abortion and other things to to be to be more mild.

But it was only going in one direction. It was only going towards the conservatives. No one was saying that to those who were on the left.

They were only saying that to those who were on the right. And I thought that was a hugely important part to point out, to say, yes, if if if there was genuine desire among those who were had influence to say, hey, guys, we need to calm down the political rhetoric, then it would have been a uniformed call to calm down.

But it wasn't. It was, hey, you Trump supporters. Hey, you guys who are against climate change. Hey, you guys who are against immigration.

And I'm just saying I'm using simple terms. Right. You guys need to calm it down. But nobody's saying calm down to the other side.

And that that was a revelation to me. I had never thought of it that way. But a brilliant point made in the book.

Well, and I think you could see it in pretty stark terms with someone like Michael Ware, who if you're not aware of him, he was a former staffer in the

Obama administration. He was a leader in the evangelicals for Biden movement in 2020, and he was welcomed.

Frequently on the gospel coalition to write for them, he was featured as sort of a voice that we should be hearing out as somebody who had a a gracious understanding of how to live out

Christian principles in the political sphere. And yet he was encouraging Christians to vote for Biden.

So, I mean, that's that that should have been a disconnect for people in a very obvious way. And yet, I mean, you also see him interviewed very frequently in the pages of Christianity Today and not asking any hard hitting questions like, hey, how do you align your party's platform with the

Christian ethics you say you hold? But, you know, really soft peddling questions like what does your new political organization offer that none of these others do?

Things of that nature. And you just went, OK, would you ever have welcomed a Trump staffer in the pages of TGC to come talk to us about how we should approach the political sphere as Christians?

And it was so troubling to me to see, for example,

Tim Keller say that these evangelical Trump supporters are making it more difficult for us to witness.

But not see that as an issue when, I mean, he himself endorsed

Michael Ware's book and spoke glowingly of Michael Ware. And there was no challenge there.

Now, look, I'm the first to say Donald Trump poses some major issues for Christians, and I have no problem with that.

I think my defense is more of the evangelical, average evangelical voter who chose him when they went into the ballot, into the voting booth.

I'm more coming out in defense of them if I can explain that clearly, you know, because I get the, well, you're

MAGA. And I'm like, I actually never talk about who I support in primaries. I'll be pretty clear that I don't think you should vote for Democrats because of their party platform is just unequivocally unbiblical.

And I don't see how you can support a party that is openly advocating all forms of perversion and the murder of babies up until birth.

So I'm fully clear on that. But beyond that, I, you know, I get people who say I feel in my conscience that I need to abstain or I need to vote third party or all of these things.

I get that. So my defense is more of the voters who made that choice to say because of our political commitments, we're voting for this platform that at this point is in support of protecting babies.

We could talk about what's going on right now. But, yeah, I was going to say is, you know, the last two weeks have been a little rough.

Yeah. And as I was nothing as I was going through the book, you know, you make a strong case for the fact that when we voted for Trump, when

I say we, when those who voted for Trump voted him in, it was with the idea that he had promised to to put judges in place who did eventually make the difference and certainly would have been different had had

Hillary gone in and been the one who had determined who those judges were going to be.

Certainly there was in that a a something good and positive happened.

And and and. And Trump is riding those that to this day, you know,

I got Roe versus Wade knocked down, and that's true. But now we see, you know, the the pro -life movement, the his sort of stepping back from that and other things.

Do you think in the book there's anything that you you may have done differently knowing what you know now?

Or do you think what you said is it's going to stand regardless of what goes forward? No, I don't think

I would write anything different now, because that was the choice. And for the reason that you state that a lot of evangelicals made was, look, one party is offering us a chance to overturn

Roe v. Wade. The other one is promising us that they will enshrine access to abortion in every possible way, to every possible extremity.

So I think it's still was a pretty, you know, reasonable choice and moral choice to have made.

So I wouldn't fault anyone for doing that now. And and let's be honest, it worked. He did actually deliver on the promise of those judges.

Now, I mean, if I step away from the book and put on my political analyst hat, am I extremely disappointed in the conversation that's being held today within the

GOP? Yes. And I would also point out that, look, it's it's a very new and very immediate conversation.

So by no means do I think that Christian voters should indicate that, hey, we're going to vote for you guys no matter what.

And we're fine with this. And, you know, you've just got our unfailing support no matter what you do.

I think we should fight to have this in the platform. There are petitions being circulated right now to return it.

I think there should be strong rebukes. And I mean, this is part of what the business of politics is, is that you fight to have your constituency recognized.

What I know for certain is that, you know, the pro -life plank is not going to get any recognition whatsoever in the

Democrat Party. So, I mean, I think even there we should use any manner of influence that we can.

I don't really think it's possible, but to try to convince them to step back from the precipice of extreme wickedness haven't had any success.

But right now, yeah, that is a part of politics is you fight for party recognition.

And that's what we're doing. Well, maybe we can play that song for them. You know, wish you would step back from that ledge, my friend.

So. Going back to the book, OK, the. The the person who this book was written for, obviously, is is is those who are in the church because they're the ones who are going to be most interested in this.

Obviously, they're going to be people outside. But but the people who are saying, how is this affecting my church? And that's a question

I want to ask you. How how does a person who is in a, you know, First Baptist Church of Jerkwater, Georgia?

That's always the place I mentioned, which is I don't even know if it exists. But, you know, First Baptist Church of wherever.

And they're reading your book and they're beginning to think, OK, how do I how do

I make a conclusion as to whether or not this has influenced my own church? How do

I how do I how do I judge these types of things? I don't know enough or I don't.

I haven't researched enough. I feel like my pastor is a good guy. I feel like he loves me. He does. He tries to do a good job.

What questions should I be asking? Do you understand kind of what I do? How do we apply these truths?

I guess is the question. And I think that's a really important question, because a lot of pastors, look, they're not omniscient either.

They don't have time to review everything. And something can be brought in under the guise of, you know, having the best of intentions.

Like you might see something about, well, we do want to welcome strangers. Now, what does that mean biblically?

But you may just sort of, you know, have some people in your church who are really gung ho about this topic and saying, hey, we want to start a

Bible study on this. And so you say yes to it. So I mean, one,

I hate to tell people I think we're in an era where just a lot more homework is needed. And the hey, this guy is my friend and he's trusted.

So I'm going to go along with this curriculum. I don't think that works the way that it used to. I think we are very much in a moment where we need to recognize that those forces are trying to come into the church.

And like if I can give you one example on this LGBTQ issue, I spend a lot of time showing how these secular foundations are funneling money into the church.

And they say very explicitly to try to change the doctrinal stance of every

Christian church, no matter how conservative, to be affirming, by which they mean, you know, blessing same -sex marriage, homosexual activity and identities, transgender identities and behaviors.

And so they are doing this and they are training what you can only call an army of activists to come into churches and quietly and subtly do this.

In fact, they have a program. One of these groups that is funded by a left -wing foundation is called the

Reformation Project. And they have a program called Pastors in Process made to train pastors even to quietly move their congregations towards LGBTQ affirmation.

And so what I think you need to know is that, look, even if you're as the pastor, you're not bringing it in or you don't see your pastor bringing it in, it doesn't mean that there isn't someone in your youth group, or some leader who you have not fully vetted who is bringing this in.

And so one of the things to do, I think, is be as distinct as possible. Don't be shy about what scripture teaches on these issues just because they're culturally unpopular.

And I think we are seeing a lot of that, whether it's, you know, pronoun hospitality or the whispering about sexual sin.

I mean, that's become sort of the infamous example. But this was something that was said by a couple of SBC presidents because one said it and then the other one plagiarized it.

And I'm just going to say, yeah, they have a they have a tendency. Those two. But that this kind of thing is coming in.

And I feel like what churches need to be aware of, like if you're assuming that your youth group is all great and is all safe and you guys don't really need to get into these issues.

I just couldn't disagree more because I know how much effort is going into bringing people into your churches without your ever noticing it.

And as far as if a new program comes into your church. Again, you got to do the homework, you got to read it.

And then if you see things that don't quite square, that seem legalistic and by legalistic,

I mean, if they are demanding that you need to agree with, let's say, certain legislation in order to show your faithfulness as a

Christian, and the Bible isn't clear on that issue, something like what our border policy should be.

Then you need to push back. I mean, I would encourage everyone always to push back respectfully and graciously, but I would ask questions about why is this something that we're bringing into this church?

And have we looked into who's really backing it? And what do we know about the organizations behind this?

Because it doesn't take, you know, much peeling back of layers to find out that there's often nefarious non -Christian actors behind it.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's just the way you were talking just then about the situation of,

OK, if I'm in a Bible study and we begin to talk about, even if I mean, if I were in a

Bible study and the topic of immigration came up and that became the focus and it became the focus of some what was obviously a political, politically motivated agenda rather than just saying, you know, maybe how we need to love outsiders or things like that, but actually begin to drive toward.

And this is and these are the policies that need to be put into place that that would send up a red flag. And that's the red flag you see a lot, by the way.

And I didn't mean to interrupt, but I just want to go. That is probably the one through line you can see that once there's once it gets to.

And that's why we need to support cap and trade. Then you should go. Hang on a minute. Cap and trade is not a clear biblical issue.

OK, how did we get here? Well, one of the questions I had from from Twitter, and I do want to ask you a few, if you don't mind.

I know we have just a little while left here and it goes along with this. I think this question is more in line with, you know, going a little further.

It says, how do congregations purge the pulpit of leftists and start spiritually forming new leaders instead of letting woke seminaries do it for them?

I mean, I know I know the answer I have, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

I I think it's a hard question, but but I'll let you. That's a really hard question.

And as I think about it, I mean, I think the first thing that we just have to start with is acknowledging when it's happening.

And I think for a long time we haven't even gotten to that part because it was kind of considered just in bad taste for a while to openly acknowledge these things.

And then also, I want to say that when we're acknowledging it, let's do it in the right way so that our concern is not discredited, because I have also seen that, too, where people just come out, you know, guns blazing with.

And sometimes it's language that I wouldn't even use, you know, being flung at pastors, and I go, OK, maybe we don't do that.

So it feels like the first thing is let's acknowledge it, but let's also acknowledge it with the sober mindedness that it calls for, that this is a really serious thing that's happening, you know, and as far as the seminary seminaries, that's part of it is.

And I think that's part of where I come in, and that's part of my job as journalists is to expose these things that are going on so that they're not happening under the cover of darkness.

And I mean, I hate to say it, but when you know that institutions are kind of lying about what's happened in the recent past, for the sake of politeness, we can't sort of let the lying continue.

You know, if a seminary says we never supported critical race theory and they made pages disappear off their university websites that clearly showed that, yes, they did, then

I mean, I think we have to go. Yes, you did. Look, and here they were. Here's the record of what you did.

Why were you doing that? What is the explanation? Yeah, no, I think that's that's very good and very important.

If you don't mind, I'd like to also just add something to this question, because from a pastoral perspective, how do we purge the pulpits of leftists and start spiritually forming new leaders?

First things first is if I were asked this question as a pastor, you know, if a person was at another church and they asked me this,

I would say, first of all, understand that if you're not in a place where you're if you're not in a church where you can talk to your pastor and have a conversation with him, then that's a problem.

And I know megachurches, you know, there are megachurches out there where the pastor is kind of behind a security wall and all that thing.

I'm not a huge fan of that. I want to get into that argument right now. But the issue of if the pastor is not accessible, if the leadership team is not accessible to the congregation and there's no way to have that conversation,

I think that's one of the issues that we've gotten to. The congregation should be able to address the pastor and ask those type of questions and not accusatorially but or accusatively, but to be able to address that question.

And the second thing is within the seminaries, we should be we should be training up leaders within the churches.

And again, I know this is I'm on my soapbox now, and I apologize. But it is my belief and my hope that we would, as churches, be raising up godly men for the pulpit and actually training them and the seminaries would become less necessary.

That's my but that's a that's a long term. And probably people would say pie in the sky goal.

But I think that we should be teaching. I believe every church can be an institution of higher learning and actually teach what needs to be taught rather than having to send men away from the church to be trained.

That's just a whole different conversation. So sorry to take it off. Oh, I like it.

So another question that was asked here that this book has been endorsed by quite a few people.

It was Dr. Askell who brought it to my attention. I had him on the show and he mentioned the book and told me

I should interview you. And I was grateful that you said yes to the interview. But the question was, why wasn't this able to be released before the

SBC convention? Because this certainly could have, you know, certainly made it not maybe not made a difference, but but but it would have been important.

Is there a reason why it's been taking this long to come out? So I can tell you that that has been so frustrating to me as well.

But it's also one of those things that I'm like, I'm giving it to you, God. I don't know why things played out the way that they did.

But initially I was with another publisher, Regnery, which was then an imprint of Salem.

And in fact, it was Regnery that came to me and editor Regnery kind of saw some of my work and said, hey,

I think there's a book in this. Would you be willing to put together a proposal for us? And so that was what

I did. And we had kind of planned on a timeline of around late February, early

March for release. Well, Regnery was sold.

Then Salem and I don't know the internal workings, of course, but for whatever reason, they sold

Regnery. A lot of people were let go when it was bought out by another publishing house.

And people just had the opportunity at that point, you know, to stay or go. And for a variety of reasons, my agent and I just kind of decided, you know, let's shop this around.

And so when we did that, we landed at Harper Collins, which I was very, very grateful for.

But and they got it out as quickly as they could. But, you know, a large publishing house, they had their own editorial calendar planned.

And so they still had to make room for me in their editorial calendar as it is. And I can just tell you the publishing business is you really have to plan a long way out.

So for them, that was lightning fast to pick up the book in January and get it out by July was super fast for them.

But yeah, so it was just kind of one of those things that business got messy and, you know,

I'm I'm I'm praying and I know and I trust that, you know, the Lord will do with it as he wants to do with it in this timing.

Amen. This question actually came through a direct message. So this person asked, has have you,

Megan, have you tracked any funny money being funneled into the church abuse cottage industry players?

And they they said Bose, Roys, Denilander, et cetera. No. And, you know,

I spend a lot. That is the longest chapter of my book. It's it's also I think it's next to last chapter.

So you won't have gotten to it before. But I spend a lot of time on what happened with the abuse issue in the last couple of years in evangelicalism.

And I don't know for sure that, you know, no money has, you know, ever been a factor anywhere there.

But to the extent that I did and I did a lot of research into this issue, I never saw that being the driving factor.

But what I did see was very much this influence of me to framing and how we think about what abuse is as an oppressor and oppressed dynamic rather than an understanding of does someone have culpability because, you know, they're of age and they can make decisions, they have agency and they're choosing to sin or not sin.

That has not we have changed our thinking now within the church in what I believe are very unbiblical ways to try to say, well, if there's a power imbalance, it renders an adult woman morally inculpable.

So she is not responsible for her decisions. And I actually think that's very unbiblical. And I think it's wrong if you're a pastor who's shepherding women to teach women that if someone holds some form of power over me, then

I am no longer responsible for any sinful choice I might make, because I think that leaves women's consciences burdened and you're putting up a kind of separation between her and God than that needs to be dealt with.

And so I feel like that should be a very heavy thing for pastors to have absorbed this idea of what abuse between adults is.

And because and because I want to be clear that we have very real cases of abuse within the church and they should always be dealt with in the strongest terms possible.

You report it to authorities, you prosecute to the full extent of the law. So I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about these sort of murky cases that we saw with the Guidepost report in the

SBC and allegations between adults where, you know, an adult woman says, well,

I was on the same campus as this professor for two years. And even though some sort of relationship, sexual relationship continued between us, for more than 10 years, it was abuse the entire time.

And I don't really have to explain why. And everyone just accepts that. And we're all being asked to sign on to massive reforms based on stories like this.

And I have a problem with that. Because there's just nothing biblical in this idea of it's about a power imbalance as opposed to individual sinful choices.

And, you know, when I looked at Rachel Denhollander, I spent a lot of time on her as well.

And I don't know what to say there, other than I obviously see a lack of discernment.

And I think that's pretty clear in what I write about it in the book. Even to the sense that if you remember the

Christine Blasey Ford hearings. Yeah, for Justice Brett Kavanaugh.

You know, she wrote a piece where she basically said Kavanaugh's or Blasey Ford's complete lack of evidence, lack of recollection, really any credibility to her story at all could be put down to trauma and that trauma causes this inability to remember things.

And apparently also trauma causes your own witnesses to discredit you and say that didn't happen.

So, I mean, to me, all I can look at in that situation is go because someone has behaved heroically after suffering something, and she absolutely did.

I mean, I think we can all look at the testimony she gave in the Nassar trial as heroic.

But when that person is made the exclusive authority and voice on that issue, when they didn't really have any other standing to do so, other than the fact that they experienced that themselves.

That is maybe not the wisest course of action. That is actually maybe somebody who's so emotionally invested in the issue that they don't have the distance to stand back and judge rightly on how these things should be approached.

So that was really what I came to. And I don't know really what motivates, for example, Den Hollander and some of the other names that were just brought up.

I mean, I'll just say bluntly, I think that that is the dominant cultural framing and people have absorbed the dominant cultural framing because let me tell you,

I learned from experience that it's real unpopular to step up and go, hey, you know what?

I actually don't think this is biblical. And I do think women are often responsible for their own choices and we're doing them a disservice to deny it.

You get called some real awful names when you say that. So and you can make a big career on it, too.

So no doubt we'll make this the last question.

I know we've been going for an hour now and I appreciate your time. Don't want to don't want to take advantage of you, take you away from anything else.

So this question, though, is an opinion question. And you may or may not, you know, feel like this is something that.

Well, let me ask the question. I think you'll understand what I mean. Says almost every almost every evangelical

I know who deconstructed and left Christianity was led out of the faith by progressive politics.

This is a this is a quote from Joel Berry. Yeah, yes. And the question is, have her comment.

Please have Megan comment on this. What are your thoughts about the do you think deconstructionism, which is basically a relatively recent way of using the term apostasy?

It's basically, you know, people who deconstruct, who leave the faith and take it apart and say, these are the things

I disagree and this is why I'm leaving. Or they reconstructed in a way that it's not historically Christianity.

Do you think that this has been at least in part influenced by progressive leftist politics?

Yeah, I mean, I think anecdotally it's really hard to deny it. And more specifically, I can say that almost every case of deconstruction that I personally know of, it involved a desire to find a way to be

OK with homosexuality in some sense. And I think that was part of what's driving the deconstruction.

Like, I don't know any deconstructionist. Is that how you would refer to them? Any deconstructionist who has not shifted on that particular issue.

And I think that's why it is such a key issue. Like when we look at Jude 1, the sexual immorality issue is so important when we're to be looking for the wolves who are infiltrating and coming in.

That's that's the key red flag right there, because we know that we're always going to live in a culture that is looking for permission to be as sexually perverse as possible.

And so you never want to be a part of a church that's looking for ways to accommodate that. So, yeah,

I mean, I can't disagree with it. And I look for a rainbow flag almost every time behind it.

Yeah. Now, isn't that funny, though, what you just said is every time we see deconstruction, it's always they always reconstruct with a with a much different political position.

It's almost always the rainbow flag. It's almost always even even things that you wouldn't think about, like you mentioned in the climate change and immigration.

It's almost like everything falls on a line. It's like if you fall off this cliff, you're going to fall off this cliff.

You know, you're going to be painted with a with a with a rainbow colored flag and you're going to have a different.

You mentioned and I know we got to close, but you you mentioned Gavin Orton, Orton's position on climate change.

And I and I'm you know, Gavin's written some great things and I'm appreciative of some of his work.

But when I heard about that, because I didn't realize that, but just to hear. And again, it's like to equate this with a moral issue.

If you don't agree with this moral issue, then you're then you have you know, you're not being a good

Christian. And I know that's not exactly what he said, but that's essentially. Well, and that you're politicizing the church if you don't agree to make this issue a part of what the church speaks out on.

I mean, I thought that, you know, I don't know what his motives are, but I thought that was a very strange, you know, exchange to go.

It's political. If you don't take up the issue of climate change when look scientifically,

I'm married to a meteorologist, so I can tell you there's a lot of room for scientific debate there. And it's one that I'm fine having.

I, I just bristle at making it something on which the church must speak. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, Miss Megan, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I'm grateful to have the opportunity to talk to you, and I could continue to talk to you all day.

But I want to be respectful of your time. And I know you have certainly a life to get back to.

So I want to thank you for giving us this hour of your time and tell everybody when the book comes out.

I think I mentioned the date earlier, but I don't remember if I did. So let's make sure everybody knows book comes out July 30th.

So in just about two weeks. And, you know, you can order on Barnes and Noble, Amazon, I think probably all the major book platforms.

Or if you go directly to Harper Collins website, if you Google it, you know, pull them up and you can find independent bookstores to order from as options as well.

Perfect. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me.

Absolutely. And I want to thank you guys for being a part of the show today. And I want to remind you that if you enjoyed today's show, please hit the thumbs up the thumbs up button.

And if you didn't enjoy today's show, please hit the thumbs down button twice. Thank you for listening to your

Calvinist podcast. My name is Keith Foskey, and I've been your Calvinist. May God bless you.