March 16, 2018 Show with Dr. Tony Costa on “An Assessment of the Arnzen vs. Bogle Radio Debate on ‘Unbelievable?’ UK Radio (Part 1)”

The Program Introduction and the Debate Topic

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in Conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 16th day of March 2018 and by the way after this program is over if any of you want to Log in to iron sharpens iron radio .com and Look up in the archives in the search engine for past programs podcasts my interview that I conducted last year with a renowned Baptist scholar dr. Michael Haken on the subject of Patrick of Ireland The true st. Patrick of history.

I urge you to do so so you'll be prepared to Bring that true figure of history that great Christian hero of history up in conversation with family friends and loved ones when they may be celebrating a fictitious st. Patrick's Day tomorrow on the 17th of March but today we are going to be having an assessment a long-awaited assessment of The debate that I had my first and only Debate that I ever personally participated in as a debater and at least in any kind of public sense the debate that I had with James Bogle a Roman Catholic apologist and Barrister in the United Kingdom.

Chris Arnzen’s Conversion from Catholicism to Reformed Baptist Faith

I was invited prior to Reformation Day 2017 to participate in an interview on unbelievable radio in the UK. I've participated in the phone that is While everyone else was in the UK and in the studio of the unbelievable studios and I was told that we would be giving our testimonies on that program that is I would be giving my testimony of having been raised Roman Catholic and then eventually converting to biblical evangelical Protestantism and more specifically reformed Baptist theology and James Bogle the British barrister and Roman Catholic apologist and leader of a Catholic apostolate out there in the UK.

He was going to be giving his testimony of how the reverse happened in his life how he being raised Anglican and Protestant Eventually converted to Roman Catholicism. What I did not know beforehand was that this discussion was Intended to develop into a debate which it did not any kind of a long very very detailed Meticulously timed and moderated Debate this was more of a radio debate which tend to be discussions that are give-and-take between two people of opposing views.

But so it did develop into a debate and I'm going to be playing that debate for you right now. It's a little over an hour. So I'm not going to waste any more of your time by babbling here. And then we're going to have dr Tony Costa the professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary Joining us in the second hour of the show to give his assessment of this debate.

And we are also going to have him back on Monday for part two of this discussion Which will probably be on a much broader Realm of issues regarding the Roman Catholic Church rather than just those issues brought up at the debate depending upon what time allows us but without further ado here is my Interview slash debate with James Bogle on the unbelievable radio program in the UK hosted by Justin Brierley.

Justin Brierley Introduces the Catholic-Protestant Dialogue

I'm welcome along to unbelievable I'm Justin Brierley your host for the show every week here on premiere Christian radio as part of faith explored that brings different perspectives together to generate Conversations that matter really interesting program for you today.

Let's get into it. Well today on the program we're hearing from a Catholic turned Protestant and a Protestant convert to Catholicism. So if you like the inverse mirror of each other when it comes to their journeys of faith.

We're going to be hearing this dialogue today as we mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation when the Protestant Church Split away from the Roman Catholic Church. We're speaking to two people who both changed their minds about which one they wanted to be part of.

Well Chris Arnson is a reformed Baptist and host of the iron sharpens iron radio show out in the USA. He was once a Catholic. He'll be telling us about why he became a Protestant and why he now actually critiques Catholicism.

Gonna find out more about him. Iron sharpens iron radio. Dot-com is the website. James Bogle joins me in the studio. He's vice-chairman of the Catholic Union of Great Britain a barrister professionally.

He'll be telling us about his journey from Anglicanism to Catholicism as a young man. And why he believes the Catholic Church is the true Church established by Christ. And I'm sure we'll cover a number of other issues in the course of the program.

We'll try and get to things like the issue of Mary the Pope salvation by works or grace and more besides. But I hope you enjoy today's dialogue a Catholic turned Protestant dialoguing with a Protestant convert to Catholicism so a warm welcome to you both.

Chris and James welcome along to the program. It's great to be here. It's great to have you both and good to be here. Let's come to you. First of all Chris you run a program. That's not a million miles away from what I do here.

Unbelievable you're quite often hosting people talking about faith issues how to engage with secular culture and. And and obviously hosting debates every so often as well and tell us a little bit though about What you do now, but how you actually came to be the Christian you are today as well.

Chris’s Early Catholic Life, Drift, and Conversion

Well, I was raised in a Roman Catholic home. My mother was Roman Catholic. My father was Episcopalian Who did not convert to Catholicism until I was approximately 17 years old. I was educated in parochial school and here in America, they call Parochial schools private schools.

I understand that that's not the case over there in the UK. But it was a Roman Catholic school. I have Nothing, but really very fond memories of all of that. I was an altar boy. I was a very religious young man.

And.

I very much got along with the majority of the nuns who were teachers at that school. Which was st. Martin of Tours Roman Catholic School in Amityville Long Island, New York and I also got along very well with the priests the parish priests there.

I Departed from the Catholic Church. Not in a formal way, but just by drifting away. When I was approximately 15 years old I remember during a confirmation class Before I was confirmed when I was 14 We were given the opportunity to have a priest our parish priest.

Sit in on a class At the school where we were given the freedom to ask him any questions about our faith that we that we chose to ask. And I can remember just becoming dismayed by Some of the answers that didn't seem to sit right with me and the one that I specifically asked Was is heaven a real place or a state of mind.

And keep in mind that this is. Not long after Vatican to. This is a day and age when there were novel ideas being bantied about in Roman Catholicism. It was a day of the beginning of very strong ecumenical relationships or attempts at ecumenical relationships with those outside of Catholicism.

We even had a Passover Seder one year at the school with a Jewish rabbi not a Messianic Christian rabbi, but a bit of Jewish rabbi and. But I remember when I asked that question to the priest if this was of heaven the place that I and everyone else Who believes in heaven the place that we long to go to?

After this life is over. He said it answered to my question that heaven was a state of mind. Now I realize.

That.

That that class could have been very easily been conducted in an evangelical or mainline Protestant Church. And that you might have heard an equally Absurd answer or unbiblical answer and I know that that answer is not even reflective of Roman Catholic dogma, but I but I remember that was just a beginning and it perhaps began a little bit earlier than that, but that was like a real crucial point when I started to be very Dissatisfied with Catholicism and I drifted as a young man into alcoholism and a very serious Pot smoking marijuana and For years I went on in that lifestyle and becoming more increasingly evolved in those things.

And by the time I was approximately in my mid-twenties 24 25 a friend of mine had become a born-again Christian in a Small Pentecostal congregation and urged me to come there to worship with her at the same time.

For years my my one of my oldest brothers Had been aggressively evangelizing me he had also had a born-again Christian experience and he was evangelizing me and all of these factors combining together were beginning to Chip away at my heart and get me to really start to rethink everything that I had thought about Christianity and Eventually I Began a friendship by the providence of God with a local pastor in the town where I was raised Amityville, Long Island.

This pastor's name is Mike Gaydosh who is now retired from the ministry. But he was at the time pastor of Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, which was a reformed Baptist Church. Today it is known as Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island located in Merrick Long Island, New York after a merger with another reformed Baptist Church, they became one congregation and So the very first church evangelical Protestant Church where I was convinced that they had the truth that they had they were a reflection of what the Bible actually taught in regard to most things especially In regard to salvation I Requested to be baptized and I can recall that because I had repented from my serious abuse of alcohol and Marijuana and so on I can recall that my my Roman Catholic mom.

Who.

Had some initial Misgivings or apprehensions that I was leaving the faith of my Youth the faith. She raised me in the faith where I was Baptized as a baby. She really came to rejoice in this conversion because she saw the stark contrast that came about in my life after my repentance and My mother by the way on her deathbed Also embraced The gospel of the Reformation which I of course would believe is the biblical gospel that she was trusting solely in the finished work of Christ on Calvary for her salvation.

And she was dying of pancreatic cancer and This was not something that was Pushed upon her she wasn't manipulated into believing this it just very Very quickly Came out of her where she Just very calmly confessed That that is what she was trusting in and she she renounced prayer to Mary and the Saints something that was a daily habit of her for 70 years and.

We're nearly 70 years and she was 70 when she went home to the Lord. I just be interested to know you. Your father. Well, how did he respond to you becoming a reformed Christian?

He did not have any misgivings about it. My father was always an ecumenist. My father Was a Cub Scout leader and he very much enjoyed. I don't know if the Cub Scouts do this today because of Political correctness, I'm not sure but actually this is somewhat of a politically correct activity anyway, but he used to take the Cub Scouts to different houses of worship that was like a a Common thing that the Scouts did it in America at least at that time and he and he would take the Scouts on a visit to.

Catholic Church Protestant Church, even a Jewish synagogue. Chris, so you've explained your journey very well there. In a sense, it sounds like you didn't have any problems with as it were your Catholic upbringing.

But certainly it doesn't sound like it necessarily made a huge impact on you in terms of spiritual devotion or kind of in a sense.

In a deep way and and that well actually actually as a young boy. It did have an impact on me religiously. I was religious. I prayed often. I believed in God. I believed in the truths of Jesus Christ.

I believed he was God and is God.

And.

So I I was not and I was not indifferent about religion or about that truths of God. But it just became a much more vivid Change and reality for me later on when I became by God's grace a born-again believer and embraced Historic and biblical Protestantism and.

That changes also led to you actually speaking out and critiquing Catholicism as well because as far as you're concerned It isn't a truly biblical expression of salvation by grace through faith. That's right.

And one of the core reasons for that is That the Council of Trent the Roman Catholic Council of Trent declared Hundreds of years before I was even a thought and my father's I The Council of Trent declared that the gospel I believe the gospel of the Reformation is a false gospel so therefore we have dogmatically a Declaration that there are two different gospels we are talking about.

You have the gospel of the Roman Catholic Church and you have the gospel of the Reformation which all those who.

Are.

Embracing the gospel of the Reformation, of course believe it is the gospel of the scriptures in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So When there are two different Gospels being discussed here. I find no support for the Church of Rome's gospel and therefore I embrace wholeheartedly the doctrine of.

The scriptures gospel and the gospel of the Reformation. Okay. Well, thank you so much for being on the program with us today. Chris and Chris representing our Catholic turned Protestant. Side of the discussion today.

James Bogle’s Anglican Background and Journey to Rome

Well, our Protestant convert to Catholicism is James Bogle who joins me in the studio. He's the vice chairman of the Catholic Union of Great Britain and a barrister professionally. James. Thank you very much for coming in today and tell us about your story starting from a similar position to Chris in a sense because you grew up in an Anglican household and Going to church and that sort of thing was certainly part of your your normal routine, wasn't it?

Yeah for the for the benefit of American listeners. Can I explain that a barrister means a trial attorney? It's usually Raises eyebrows. I appreciate that. Can I just say one thing. First of all, um my experience has been in some respect similar to Chris in that He has found what he was given in his youth unsatisfactory.

Although at the same time it gave him some good things. For example a belief in God belief in the gospel belief in Christ same for me in my Protestant upbringing. I should say that. And can I also say that I entirely sympathize with Chris's journey?

Because I suspect and I hope I'm not doing his teachers and injustice here that he was given a very watered-down version of Catholicism if not, indeed a false version of it as evidenced by the story that he told us of the priest who when asked by By Chris as a child a perfectly reasonable question is heaven a real place or a state of mind.

The priest said a state of mind. Chris was balanced enough to say well, it could have happened in a evangelical or liberal Protestant debate. The fact is unfortunately that is happening a lot in in all Christian churches an attempt to water down the gospel.

I think Chris and I would be on the same page, but that is wrong.

I imagine you'd be on the same page on a number of moral and ethical issues as well.

I imagine your primary issues are doctrinal. Yes, and I think we should bear in mind we have. I Hope Chris doesn't mind me saying so that. Certainly those who come from evangelical backgrounds. In my experience We as Catholics or these Catholics who genuinely believe the Catholic faith have much more in common than we do Against each other.

Having said that there are of course some very significant.

Take us back to your journey that led you so.

Yeah, just going back to my own experience. I mean I my family been Protestant since the Reformation in Scotland and We've been variously Scottish Episcopalian or Presbyterian and I think I'm probably the first Catholic in my family.

Although my Parents were nominally Anglican. They had me baptized. Well, I noticed my baptismal certificate until I was the age of two. But it would be wrong to say that they were church-going believing Anglicans.

They were so we say fairly typical of a lot of Anglicans. They gave adherence to the Church of England in a kind of semi-detached or away, which is not uncommon in the Church of England, which is of course a criticism that People from Chris's background will have make of the Church of England or Anglicanism or Episcopalianism as much as we Catholics do.

So that's my background. I went to a what we call in this country a public school, you know in America. They would call it a private school or I'm a I think you call them preppies. And fairly typical Church of England religion, which is.

We would get it when I was at boarding school, we would go to church every Sunday. We sometimes have church services during the week, but the doctrine was fairly fairly flaccid. But nonetheless, I had some quite good teachers Church of England ministers who?

Who.

Who prepared me for confirmation? I later discovered from some of my newly found Catholic friends that I probably had a better Preparation for confirmation that a lot of modern-day Catholic children have.

Unfortunately, they often have very bad preparation. Our mind was fairly simple I was taught the the creed the our father and very various doctrines of the Church of England respect for the Bible. But more importantly is that I personally believed.

Mm-hmm.

And.

I after my confirmation, I actually went to church on Sundays, which I think astounded my my.

Fairly nominal.

Yeah, well, I think you know, I mean in the modern world if you go to church period you're regarded as slightly odd particularly in Countries like England actually at that time. I was in Australia. In America less so I think church going is regarded as much more normal in America.

But in in Europe and in countries of the former British Empire. With the exception I suppose of black countries where I think there's quite a lot of church going among the the sort of white Commonwealth.

Skepticism is the order of the day. I went to regularly on Sunday on Sundays, then we moved to another part of the country and I went to a different school and Stopped going for a while then I went to boarding school and started going again because required.

Mm-hmm, but I didn't mind at all. I was very familiar with the Church of English service. It's a very beautiful service. Unfortunately, the Church of England has changed from the old 1662 service book with this beautiful English to something which is frankly execrable.

The Catholic Church has done something similar alas. But I was fortunate enough to have the very pleasant Cranmer in English I don't agree with Cranmer, but I rather like his English at what point then did your journey bring you into I?

Contact with a serious they considering Catholicism as an option. Well, I would say when I left school I still had a belief in God. But when I got to university a university in the ninth late 1970s was I suppose more closely akin to a lunatic asylum it was predominant predominantly.

The academics the dons were of the left some of the extreme left. Most of the student bodies were dominated by extreme Left wing not to say Marxist communist views. They tended to invite over representatives from the North Vietnam North Vietnamese Communist Party to address the students and say how wicked the Americans were and This was all fairly difficult for me since half of my family were in the army.

My father was a soldier. I eventually became one myself. And my uncles and other relatives were serving in Vietnam against the Viet Cong. I was greeted on the day one at university by the huge demonstration of the draft resistors Union.

I was offered Marijuana cigarette in my first lecture. I mean it was just a madhouse right and and this went against your more if you like.

Yeah, I mean I was conservative. I was fairly.

Liberal minded myself, but this was not what I was used to. They I can I think put it that way. So I I was happy fortunate enough to Find some of my friends from when I had been at school the school where I was confirmed.

And to discover that one of them had become a Catholic which surprised me. Because I had been brought up as fairly typical Protestant ideas that were anti-catholic. In fact, somebody some wag once said an Englishman doesn't know what his religious beliefs are, but he knows jolly.

Well, he's not a damn cat. I Suppose that would have been my view at that time and I would have said I. So I was very surprised to discover my friend had become a Catholic. So, of course, I immediately asked him why.

Hmm. He said well, it's a wrong story. I said well tell me. Over the next two years he proceeded to do so not only to tell me his story but also more importantly to answer my questions and objections and I had a lot and every time I Presented with an objection he was able to answer it fully and completely which is rare these days.

You you were had a very unusual friend.

Someone now as it happens, he's extremely intelligent. He can't open the class. He came top in the state. He had first-class honors degrees left right and center. He is by the as it happens. He's now a priest.

He was an extremely intelligent man. And that was very fortunate because then it meant he was he was able to answer. He was also extremely good at history. Cardinal Newman once said famously to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.

He was deep in history and he ceased to be a protestant. This was a journey of it's an intellectual journey up for you.

And at what point did you know did your heart follow the the intellect and you find about two years to be persuaded?

The first point is to be persuaded I should just say his knowledge of history was so great that I remember when we were in history class together. Our history master if he was stuck for some historical fact would say John would you get up and explain it?

He would get up and explain to the class better than the teacher goodness. So I was very lucky to have that. After about two years, I ran out of objections. I couldn't you know, I raised all these objections and I'm sure Chris will raise in the course of this Interview and he was able to answer them all he was able to answer more persuasively rationally intellectually logically.

And with conviction. Now having been intellectually persuaded isn't of course enough. Faith as both Chris and I'm sure will agree and you just and I'm sure is is a gift of God. It's not something you can earn.

It's not something you can work your way towards. It's a gift of God you either you get it from God or you don't of course God will give it to everybody because God is because God is love and God wants to save everybody.

So he will At the appropriate moment offer you faith it's up to you whether you accept it or not. I accepted it. I've accepted it, but I accepted it not only With some what somebody has once described as a funny internal feeling but because it streamed to me true.

Logically rationally historically right from every it was a meeting of the the head and the heart then for you. Maybe the head and the heart exactly that and that is what the Catholic Church is. It's a meeting of the head and the heart.

And one of the criticisms I would make of evangelical Protestantism. It is largely a meeting of the heart only now. I personally believe and I want to emphasize this that this is the Catholic faith. We believe that is sufficient for salvation.

If you believe that Christ is your Savior and that you're sorry for your sins. As long as you aren't actively objecting or rejecting what you know to be true. That's enough for salvation now I will be accused by Chris of being a liberal for saying that but actually it excludes it.

We've we've taken almost the first segment of today's show just to hear both your stories and time is flying already. But just before we go to our first break and then we start to get you guys dialing on this whole issue.

I have one other important thing to say. Go ahead and we'll go to our break. I I then read a very important book, which I recommend to anybody who's contemplating the Christian faith. I've got it in front of me now.

It's it is by the famous Cardinal John Henry Newman.

Who was himself, of course a convert.

Having been a very prominent leader in the Protestant Church, particularly the Tractarian movement. And it's called an essay on the development of Christian doctrine, which he wrote in 1845 and he got half we got two-thirds of the way through and eventually converted and It's it's beautifully written and it answers are so many objections about the Catholic faith.

And I just want to read one bit if I may go ahead. This is one of the thing this is what this is. Finally what did it for me? He says this. In his chapter on the church of the fourth century on the whole we have reason to say.

That if there be a form of Christianity at this day distinguished for its careful organization and its consequent power. If it is spread over the world if it is conspicuous by zealous maintenance of its own creed If it is intolerant towards what it considers error If it is engaged in ceaseless war with all other bodies called Christian if it and it alone is called Catholic by the world nay by those very bodies and if it makes much of the title if it names them heretics and warns them of coming woe and Calls them then one by one to come over to itself overlooking every other tie and if they on the other hand call it seducer harlot apostate Antichrist devil if however they differ one with the another They consider it their common enemy if they strive to unite against it together and cannot if they are but local if they continually Subdivide and it remains one if they fall one after another make way for new sects and it remains it remains the same.

Such a form of religion is not unlike the Christianity of the fourth century, right? So it was the enduring stability.

Unity of the Catholic Church. That then it for you was a proof of its of its truth and most importantly of all.

Consistency and inerrancy of doctrine it never contradicted itself when it spoke with authority.

The Catholic-Protestant Debate Begins: Salvation, Trent, and the Gospel

We will we will I'm sure get into these issues in the rest of today's program. We've heard the stories so far of our Catholic turned Protestant Chris arms and on the program today and James Bogle who Began as a Protestant in Anglican background and was converted in here as a young man to Catholicism.

We're going to continue the discussion between them on today's show as we hear these two Different stories that mirror each other in opposite directions. And as we mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation We'll be asking what does it mean to be a Catholic and why does Chris believe that it is unbiblical.

As a way of expressing the Christian faith. We'll be back in a moment's time with more here on the show that aims to get you thinking. Unbelievable. So let's continue. Talking about your stories before we get into some of the specifics in the rest of the discussion today time I'm sure we'll fly by so we may not get to that much.

But Chris having heard James's story there you have an example of someone who obviously went on a sincere intellectual and spiritual journey and you know came out believing they really had found the truth about where you know the right direction to take in terms of.

The.

Christian history and and the Catholic Church's claim to be the true Continuing. If you like Church of Jesus Christ I mean When you hear someone is obviously erudite and knowledgeable in these areas as as James.

Is it is it fair to say he he's made a good choice there? Or do you feel that actually there's enough that you really don't believe James can call himself a a true believer a Christian Given given the journey's taken.

Well, obviously as I said earlier since it is the Council of Trent the Roman Catholic Council of Trent that has dogmatically Declared the gospel that I embrace the Protestant gospel as false. In fact, I am anathematized by Rome for believing it I am declared accursed and that dogma and those dogmas I should say from the Council of Trent Can never be overturned.

They can never be renounced Ex-cathedra by a Pope Because they are dogma and as my friend James, I'm sure Knows and agrees. There is a difference Between something that is a dogma and a discipline in the Catholic Church a dogma is forever binding upon a faithful Catholic and since the Council of Trent declared dogmatically that my gospel is false that would I would have to have no other conclusion than to Believe that the Roman Catholic Church has a different gospel than I do and since there is only one Biblical gospel, I believe that the Church of Rome obviously as a Protestant I believe that the Church of Rome has a false gospel and just as the Judaizers That Paul contended with especially in regard to the Church of Galatia in the New Testament.

Since he said that they had no gospel at all and he declared upon them a curse I Cannot reconcile in my mind how I can view Those that are dogmatically faithful to the Church of Rome in regard to the gospel as my brothers in Christ now having said that I believe that there are many Roman Catholics who are my brothers and sisters in Christ because either knowingly or unconsciously they are believing in the biblical gospel in opposition to the dogmatic gospel of their own church.

And I've met a number of people like that my mother for instance who I was telling you before who on her deathbed embraced and trusted in the death of Christ alone as her one and only hope for her salvation and that her salvation had nothing at all to do with her works her ceremonial activity with the Roman Catholic Church Etc.

She never told me I hereby renounce The Roman Catholic Church. She never had any kind of official conversion into Protestantism. It was the gospel that she shared with me and she renounced she renounced what I would call the the idolatry of Rome as well and so therefore She and many other Individuals who I have met I would I would embrace as my brethren.

Because of the fact that they share a gospel with me for a thoroughgoing Catholic like James sitting opposite me here as far as you're concerned He does believe effectively a false gospel. A gospel that you believe Includes works at some level in order to in order to to bring about salvation is is that your view and then we'll obviously cross.

To James for yes, assuming that James agrees with the dogmas of Rome regarding Justification and salvation. Yes, I would say that I would agree with you.

Okay, so James is what. What is your view on this very simple?

Yes, I do accept all the Catholic what the Catholic Church teaches dogmatically, but let me also say I also believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, I believe that he is my Savior my personal Savior. I pray to him I ask him for all the things that I need.

I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God. All of those things that Chris believes about the. About those things I also believe. But that's not enough. Because You've got to ask yourselves a number of important questions about Protestants.

Now let me before I say this once again remind people I am NOT criticizing or saying or an advertising or cursing or saying that Evangelicals are Chris are going to hell not saying that at all and neither is the Catholic Church.

And by the way, Chris would please knows that the Council of Trent did not curse either him or any evangelical Protestants and if If they Use the expression anathema doesn't mean a curse. It means excommunication and Protestant churches and communions also excommunicate those who do not accept their doctrine.

And the Catholic Church does no more nor less than that. So you are not cursed and as I said at the beginning We believe that if you sincerely believe in Christ, even though you may have errors That doesn't stop you going to heaven.

You are judged by your lights not by Not embracing something you don't you sincerely don't believe. In other words, you're you're judged by your conscience. But there are a number of problems with okay.

Scripture, the Canon, and the Catholic Church’s Authority

First one. Go ahead. First one up is scripture. I Believe scripture is infallible Word of God. So do evangelical Protestants, but where does the scripture come from? How did you get the scripture? And it's not enough to say as the Reformers said Sola scriptura scripture alone.

Where does it teach in scripture that scripture alone is a vision for salvation answer? It doesn't. Secondly, where do you get? In fact scripture says the very opposite. 2 Peter 1 20 20 says No prophecy of scripture shall be of any private interpretation.

What could be clearer than that and if you'll recall the story of the Ethiopian eunuch who when asked did you understand the gospel? He said how can I understand unless I have an interpreter? He needed an interpreter.

That interpreter has got to be an authentic Authoritative interpreter and that interpreter is the teaching office of the Catholic Church. But the other thing you have to bear in mind is where did the scripture come from?

How do Protestants have a Bible. The answer is the Catholic Church gave it to them? Because for the first 400 years of Christianity there was no canon of scripture. You could not pick up a book as I am now and say this is the Bible I'm holding up in my hand now a book that says the Holy Bible.

You couldn't do that in the first 400 years because there wasn't one there wasn't an accepted canon of scripture. Of course, there were various books, but there was those that were accepted those by scholars.