March 16, 2018 Show with Dr. Tony Costa on “An Assessment of the Arnzen vs. Bogle Radio Debate on ‘Unbelievable?’ UK Radio (Part 1)”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in Conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth

who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 16th day

of March 2018 and by the way after this program is over if any of

you want to Log in to iron sharpens iron radio .com and Look up

in the archives in the search engine for past programs podcasts my

interview that I conducted last year with a renowned Baptist

scholar dr. Michael Haken on the subject of Patrick of Ireland

The true st. Patrick of history.

I urge you to do so so you'll be prepared to Bring that true figure of history that great

Christian hero of history up in conversation with family friends and loved ones when they may be celebrating a

fictitious st. Patrick's Day tomorrow on the 17th of March but today

we are going to be having an assessment a long -awaited assessment of

The debate that I had my first and only Debate that I ever personally

participated in as a debater and at least in any kind of public sense the debate that

I had with James Bogle a Roman Catholic apologist and Barrister in the United

Kingdom.

I was invited prior to Reformation Day 2017 to

participate in an interview on unbelievable radio in the UK.

I've participated in the phone that is While everyone else was in the UK and in the

studio of the unbelievable studios and I was told that we

would be giving our testimonies on that program that is I would be giving my testimony of

having been raised Roman Catholic and then eventually converting to biblical

evangelical Protestantism and more specifically reformed Baptist theology and

James Bogle the British barrister and Roman Catholic apologist and leader

of a Catholic apostolate out there in the UK.

He was going to be giving his testimony of how the reverse happened in his life how he

being raised Anglican and Protestant Eventually converted to Roman Catholicism.

What I did not know beforehand was that this discussion was Intended to

develop into a debate which it did not any kind of a long

very very detailed Meticulously timed and

moderated Debate this was more of a radio debate which tend to be

discussions that are give -and -take between two people of opposing

views.

But so it did develop into a debate and I'm going to be playing that debate for you right now.

It's a little over an hour.

So I'm not going to waste any more of your time by babbling here.

And then we're going to have dr Tony Costa the professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary

Joining us in the second hour of the show to give his assessment of this debate.

And we are also going to have him back on Monday for part two of this discussion Which will probably

be on a much broader Realm of issues regarding the Roman Catholic Church rather

than just those issues brought up at the debate depending upon what time allows us but

without further ado here is my Interview slash debate with James

Bogle on the unbelievable radio program in the UK hosted by Justin Brierley.

I'm welcome along to unbelievable I'm Justin Brierley your host for the show every week here on premiere Christian radio as part of

faith explored that brings different perspectives together to generate Conversations that matter really interesting

program for you today.

Let's get into it.

Well today on the program we're hearing from a Catholic turned Protestant and a Protestant convert to

Catholicism.

So if you like the inverse mirror of each other when it comes to their journeys of faith.

We're going to be hearing this dialogue today as we mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation when the Protestant Church

Split away from the Roman Catholic Church.

We're speaking to two people who both changed their minds about which one they wanted to be part of.

Well Chris Arnson is a reformed Baptist and host of the iron sharpens iron radio show out in the USA.

He was once a Catholic.

He'll be telling us about why he became a Protestant and why he now actually critiques Catholicism.

Gonna find out more about him.

Iron sharpens iron radio.

Dot -com is the website.

James Bogle joins me in the studio.

He's vice -chairman of the Catholic Union of Great Britain a barrister professionally.

He'll be telling us about his journey from Anglicanism to Catholicism as a young man.

And why he believes the Catholic Church is the true Church established by Christ.

And I'm sure we'll cover a number of other issues in the course of the program.

We'll try and get to things like the issue of Mary the Pope salvation by works or grace and more besides.

But I hope you enjoy today's dialogue a Catholic turned Protestant dialoguing with a Protestant convert

to Catholicism so a warm welcome to you both.

Chris and James welcome along to the program.

It's great to be here.

It's great to have you both and good to be here.

Let's come to you.

First of all Chris you run a program.

That's not a million miles away from what I do here.

Unbelievable you're quite often hosting people talking about faith issues how to engage with

secular culture and.

And and obviously hosting debates every so often as well and tell us a little bit though about

What you do now, but how you actually came to be the Christian you are today as well.

Well, I was raised in a Roman Catholic home.

My mother was Roman Catholic.

My father was Episcopalian Who did not convert to Catholicism until I

was approximately 17 years old.

I was educated in parochial school and here in America,

they call Parochial schools private schools.

I understand that that's not the case over there in the UK.

But it was a Roman Catholic school.

I have Nothing, but really very fond memories of all of that.

I was an altar boy.

I was a very religious young man.

And.

I very much got along with the majority of the nuns who were teachers at that

school.

Which was st. Martin of Tours Roman Catholic School in Amityville Long

Island, New York and I also got along very well with the priests the

parish priests there.

I Departed from the Catholic Church.

Not in a formal way, but just by drifting away.

When I was approximately 15 years old I remember during a

confirmation class Before I was confirmed when I was 14

We were given the opportunity to have a priest our parish priest.

Sit in on a class At the school where we were given the freedom to

ask him any questions about our faith that we that we chose to ask.

And I can remember just becoming dismayed by Some of the answers

that didn't seem to sit right with me and the one that I specifically asked Was

is heaven a real place or a state of mind.

And keep in mind that this is.

Not long after Vatican to.

This is a day and age when there were novel ideas being bantied about

in Roman Catholicism.

It was a day of the beginning of very strong ecumenical

relationships or attempts at ecumenical relationships with those outside of Catholicism.

We even had a Passover Seder one year at the school with a Jewish rabbi

not a Messianic Christian rabbi, but a bit of Jewish rabbi and.

But I remember when I asked that question to the priest if this was of heaven the place that I

and everyone else Who believes in heaven the place that we long to go to?

After this life is over.

He said it answered to my question that heaven was a state of mind.

Now I realize.

That.

That that class could have been very easily been conducted in an evangelical or mainline

Protestant Church.

And that you might have heard an equally Absurd answer or unbiblical answer and I know that that

answer is not even reflective of Roman Catholic dogma, but I but I remember that was just a beginning

and it perhaps began a little bit earlier than that, but that was like a real crucial point when I started to be

very Dissatisfied with Catholicism and

I drifted as a young man into alcoholism and a

very serious Pot smoking marijuana and

For years I went on in that lifestyle and becoming more increasingly evolved

in those things.

And by the time I was approximately in my mid -twenties 24

25 a friend of mine had become a born -again Christian

in a Small Pentecostal congregation and urged me to come there to

worship with her at the same time.

For years my my one of my oldest brothers Had been aggressively evangelizing

me he had also had a born -again Christian experience and he

was evangelizing me and all of these factors combining together were beginning to

Chip away at my heart and get me to really start to rethink everything that I had thought about

Christianity and Eventually I

Began a friendship by the providence of God with a local pastor in the town where I was raised

Amityville, Long Island.

This pastor's name is Mike Gaydosh who is now retired from the ministry.

But he was at the time pastor of Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, which was a reformed Baptist

Church.

Today it is known as Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island located in Merrick Long

Island, New York after a merger with another reformed Baptist Church, they became one

congregation and So the very first church evangelical

Protestant Church where I was convinced that they had the truth that

they had they were a reflection of what the Bible actually taught in

regard to most things especially In

regard to salvation I Requested to be baptized and

I can recall that because I had repented from my serious

abuse of alcohol and Marijuana and so on I can recall that my my Roman

Catholic mom.

Who.

Had some initial Misgivings or apprehensions that I was leaving

the faith of my Youth the faith.

She raised me in the faith where I was Baptized as a baby.

She really came to rejoice in this conversion because she saw the stark

contrast that came about in my life after my repentance and My mother by the way on her

deathbed Also embraced The gospel of the Reformation which

I of course would believe is the biblical gospel that she was trusting solely in the finished work of

Christ on Calvary for her salvation.

And she was dying of pancreatic cancer and This was not something that was

Pushed upon her she wasn't manipulated into believing this it just very

Very quickly Came out of her where she Just

very calmly confessed That that is what she was trusting in and she

she renounced prayer to Mary and the Saints something that was a daily habit of her for 70 years and.

We're nearly 70 years and she was 70 when she went home to the Lord.

I just be interested to know you.

Your father.

Well, how did he respond to you becoming a reformed Christian?

He did not have any misgivings about it.

My father was always an ecumenist.

My father Was a Cub Scout leader and he very much enjoyed.

I don't know if the Cub Scouts do this today because of Political correctness, I'm not sure but

actually this is somewhat of a politically correct activity anyway, but he used to take the Cub

Scouts to different houses of worship that was like a a Common thing that the Scouts did

it in America at least at that time and he and he would take the Scouts on a visit to.

Catholic Church Protestant Church, even a Jewish synagogue.

Chris, so you've explained your journey very well there.

In a sense, it sounds like you didn't have any problems with as it were your Catholic upbringing.

But certainly it doesn't sound like it necessarily made a huge impact on you in terms of spiritual devotion

or kind of in a sense.

In a deep way and and that well actually actually as a young boy.

It did have an impact on me religiously.

I was religious.

I prayed often.

I believed in God.

I believed in the truths of Jesus Christ.

I believed he was God and is God.

And.

So I I was not and I was not indifferent about religion or about that truths of God.

But it just became a much more vivid Change and reality for me later on when I

became by God's grace a born -again believer and embraced Historic

and biblical Protestantism and.

That changes also led to you actually speaking out and critiquing Catholicism as well because

as far as you're concerned It isn't a truly biblical expression of salvation by grace through

faith.

That's right.

And one of the core reasons for that is That the Council of Trent the Roman

Catholic Council of Trent declared Hundreds of years before I was even

a thought and my father's I The Council of Trent declared

that the gospel I believe the gospel of the Reformation is a false gospel so therefore

we have dogmatically a Declaration that there are two different gospels we are talking

about.

You have the gospel of the Roman Catholic Church and you have the gospel of the Reformation which all those who.

Are.

Embracing the gospel of the Reformation, of course believe it is the gospel of the scriptures in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So When there are two different Gospels being discussed here.

I find no support for the Church of Rome's gospel and

therefore I embrace wholeheartedly the doctrine of.

The scriptures gospel and the gospel of the Reformation.

Okay.

Well, thank you so much for being on the program with us today.

Chris and Chris representing our Catholic turned Protestant.

Side of the discussion today.

Well, our Protestant convert to Catholicism is James Bogle who joins me in the studio.

He's the vice chairman of the Catholic Union of Great Britain and a barrister professionally.

James.

Thank you very much for coming in today and tell us about your story starting from a similar position to Chris in a sense

because you grew up in an Anglican household and Going to church and that sort of thing was certainly part of your

your normal routine, wasn't it?

Yeah for the for the benefit of American listeners.

Can I explain that a barrister means a trial attorney?

It's usually Raises eyebrows.

I appreciate that.

Can I just say one thing.

First of all, um my experience has been in some respect similar to Chris in that

He has found what he was given in his youth unsatisfactory.

Although at the same time it gave him some good things.

For example a belief in God belief in the gospel belief in Christ same for me in my Protestant upbringing.

I should say that.

And can I also say that I entirely sympathize with Chris's journey?

Because I suspect and I hope I'm not doing his teachers and injustice here that he was given

a very watered -down version of Catholicism if not, indeed a false version of it as evidenced by the story that he

told us of the priest who when asked by By Chris as a child a perfectly reasonable question is heaven

a real place or a state of mind.

The priest said a state of mind.

Chris was balanced enough to say well, it could have happened in a evangelical or liberal Protestant debate.

The fact is unfortunately that is happening a lot in in all Christian churches an attempt to water

down the gospel.

I think Chris and I would be on the same page, but that is wrong.

I imagine you'd be on the same page on a number of moral and ethical issues as well.

I imagine your primary issues are doctrinal.

Yes, and I think we should bear in mind we have.

I Hope Chris doesn't mind me saying so that.

Certainly those who come from evangelical backgrounds.

In my experience We as Catholics or these Catholics who genuinely believe the Catholic faith have much more in common than

we do Against each other.

Having said that there are of course some very significant.

Take us back to your journey that led you so.

Yeah, just going back to my own experience.

I mean I my family been Protestant since the Reformation in Scotland and

We've been variously Scottish Episcopalian or Presbyterian and I think I'm probably the first Catholic in my family.

Although my Parents were nominally Anglican.

They had me baptized.

Well, I noticed my baptismal certificate until I was the age of two.

But it would be wrong to say that they were church -going believing Anglicans.

They were so we say fairly typical of a lot of Anglicans.

They gave adherence to the Church of England in a kind of semi -detached or away, which is not uncommon in the Church of

England, which is of course a criticism that People from Chris's background will have make of the Church of

England or Anglicanism or Episcopalianism as much as we Catholics do.

So that's my background.

I went to a what we call in this country a public school, you know in America.

They would call it a private school or I'm a I think you call them preppies.

And fairly typical Church of England religion, which is.

We would get it when I was at boarding school, we would go to church every Sunday.

We sometimes have church services during the week, but the doctrine was fairly fairly flaccid.

But nonetheless, I had some quite good teachers Church of England

ministers who?

Who.

Who prepared me for confirmation?

I later discovered from some of my newly found Catholic friends that I probably had a better Preparation for confirmation that a lot of

modern -day Catholic children have.

Unfortunately, they often have very bad preparation.

Our mind was fairly simple I was taught the the creed the our father and very various doctrines of the

Church of England respect for the Bible.

But more importantly is that I personally believed.

Mm -hmm.

And.

I after my confirmation, I actually went to church on Sundays, which I think astounded my my.

Fairly nominal.

Yeah, well, I think you know, I mean in the modern world if you go to church period you're regarded as slightly odd particularly

in Countries like England actually at that time.

I was in Australia.

In America less so I think church going is regarded as much more normal in America.

But in in Europe and in countries of the former British Empire.

With the exception I suppose of black countries where I think there's quite a lot of church going among the the sort of white Commonwealth.

Skepticism is the order of the day.

I went to regularly on Sunday on Sundays, then we moved to another

part of the country and I went to a different school and Stopped going for a while

then I went to boarding school and started going again because required.

Mm -hmm, but I didn't mind at all.

I was very familiar with the Church of English service.

It's a very beautiful service.

Unfortunately, the Church of England has changed from the old 1662 service book with this beautiful English to

something which is frankly execrable.

The Catholic Church has done something similar alas.

But I was fortunate enough to have the very pleasant Cranmer in English I don't agree with Cranmer, but I rather like his

English at what point then did your journey bring you into I?

Contact with a serious they considering Catholicism as an option.

Well, I would say when I left school I still had a belief in God.

But when I got to university a university in the ninth late 1970s was I suppose

more closely akin to a lunatic asylum it was predominant

predominantly.

The academics the dons were of the left some of the extreme left.

Most of the student bodies were dominated by extreme Left wing not to say Marxist communist

views.

They tended to invite over representatives from the North Vietnam North

Vietnamese Communist Party to address the students and say how wicked the Americans were and This was all

fairly difficult for me since half of my family were in the army.

My father was a soldier.

I eventually became one myself.

And my uncles and other relatives were serving in Vietnam against the Viet Cong.

I was greeted on the day one at university by the huge demonstration of the draft resistors Union.

I was offered Marijuana cigarette in my first lecture.

I mean it was just a madhouse right and and this went against your more if you like.

Yeah, I mean I was conservative.

I was fairly.

Liberal minded myself, but this was not what I was used to.

They I can I think put it that way.

So I I was happy fortunate enough to Find some of my friends from when I had been at

school the school where I was confirmed.

And to discover that one of them had become a Catholic which surprised me.

Because I had been brought up as fairly typical Protestant ideas that were anti -catholic.

In fact, somebody some wag once said an Englishman doesn't know what his religious beliefs are, but he knows jolly.

Well, he's not a damn cat.

I Suppose that would have been my view at that time and I would have said I.

So I was very surprised to discover my friend had become a Catholic.

So, of course, I immediately asked him why.

Hmm.

He said well, it's a wrong story.

I said well tell me.

Over the next two years he proceeded to do so not only to tell me his story but also more importantly to answer my questions and

objections and I had a lot and every time I

Presented with an objection he was able to answer it fully and completely which is rare these days.

You you were had a very unusual friend.

Someone now as it happens, he's extremely intelligent.

He can't open the class.

He came top in the state.

He had first -class honors degrees left right and center.

He is by the as it happens.

He's now a priest.

He was an extremely intelligent man.

And that was very fortunate because then it meant he was he was able to answer.

He was also extremely good at history.

Cardinal Newman once said famously to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.

He was deep in history and he ceased to be a protestant.

This was a journey of it's an intellectual journey up for you.

And at what point did you know did your heart follow the the intellect and you find about two years to

be persuaded?

The first point is to be persuaded I should just say his knowledge of history was so great that I remember when we were in

history class together.

Our history master if he was stuck for some historical fact would say John would you get up and explain it?

He would get up and explain to the class better than the teacher goodness.

So I was very lucky to have that.

After about two years, I ran out of objections.

I couldn't you know, I raised all these objections and I'm sure Chris will raise in the course of this Interview

and he was able to answer them all he was able to answer more persuasively rationally intellectually logically.

And with conviction.

Now having been intellectually persuaded isn't of course enough.

Faith as both Chris and I'm sure will agree and you just and I'm sure is is a gift of God.

It's not something you can earn.

It's not something you can work your way towards.

It's a gift of God you either you get it from God or you don't of course God will give it to everybody because God is because God is love

and God wants to save everybody.

So he will At the appropriate moment offer you faith it's up to you whether you accept it or not.

I accepted it.

I've accepted it, but I accepted it not only With some what somebody has once described as a funny

internal feeling but because it streamed to me true.

Logically rationally historically right from every it was a meeting of the the head and the heart then for you.

Maybe the head and the heart exactly that and that is what the Catholic Church is.

It's a meeting of the head and the heart.

And one of the criticisms I would make of evangelical Protestantism.

It is largely a meeting of the heart only now.

I personally believe and I want to emphasize this that this is the Catholic faith.

We believe that is sufficient for salvation.

If you believe that Christ is your Savior and that you're sorry for your sins.

As long as you aren't actively objecting or rejecting what you know to be true.

That's enough for salvation now I will be accused by Chris of being a liberal for saying that but actually it excludes it.

We've we've taken almost the first segment of today's show just to hear both your stories and time is flying already.

But just before we go to our first break and then we start to get you guys dialing on this whole issue.

I have one other important thing to say.

Go ahead and we'll go to our break.

I I then read a very important book, which I recommend to anybody who's contemplating the Christian faith.

I've got it in front of me now.

It's it is by the famous Cardinal John Henry Newman.

Who was himself, of course a convert.

Having been a very prominent leader in the Protestant Church, particularly the Tractarian movement.

And it's called an essay on the development of Christian doctrine, which he wrote in 1845 and he got half we got two -thirds of

the way through and eventually converted and It's it's beautifully written and it answers are so many

objections about the Catholic faith.

And I just want to read one bit if I may go ahead.

This is one of the thing this is what this is.

Finally what did it for me?

He says this.

In his chapter on the church of the fourth century on the whole we have reason to say.

That if there be a form of Christianity at this day distinguished for its careful organization and its consequent power.

If it is spread over the world if it is conspicuous by zealous maintenance of its own creed If it is intolerant towards what it considers error

If it is engaged in ceaseless war with all other bodies called Christian if it and it alone is called Catholic by the

world nay by those very bodies and if it makes much of the title if it names them heretics and warns them of

coming woe and Calls them then one by one to come over to itself overlooking every other tie and if they on the other hand

call it seducer harlot apostate Antichrist devil if however they differ one with the

another They consider it their common enemy if they strive to unite against it together and cannot

if they are but local if they continually Subdivide and it remains one if they fall one after another make way for new

sects and it remains it remains the same.

Such a form of religion is not unlike the Christianity of the fourth century, right?

So it was the enduring stability.

Unity of the Catholic Church.

That then it for you was a proof of its of its truth and most importantly of all.

Consistency and inerrancy of doctrine it never contradicted itself when it spoke with

authority.

We will we will I'm sure get into these issues in the rest of today's program.

We've heard the stories so far of our Catholic turned Protestant Chris arms and on the program today

and James Bogle who Began as a Protestant in Anglican background and was converted in

here as a young man to Catholicism.

We're going to continue the discussion between them on today's show as we hear these two Different stories that mirror each other

in opposite directions.

And as we mark the 500th anniversary of the Reformation We'll be asking what does it mean to be a

Catholic and why does Chris believe that it is unbiblical.

As a way of expressing the Christian faith.

We'll be back in a moment's time with more here on the show that aims to get you thinking.

Unbelievable.

So let's continue.

Talking about your stories before we get into some of the specifics in the rest of the discussion today time I'm sure

we'll fly by so we may not get to that much.

But Chris having heard James's story there you have an example of someone who

obviously went on a sincere intellectual and spiritual journey and you know came out believing they

really had found the truth about where you know the right direction to take in terms of.

The.

Christian history and and the Catholic Church's claim to be the true Continuing.

If you like Church of Jesus Christ I mean When you hear someone is obviously

erudite and knowledgeable in these areas as as James.

Is it is it fair to say he he's made a good choice there?

Or do you feel that actually there's enough that you really don't believe James can call himself a

a true believer a Christian Given given the journey's taken.

Well, obviously as I said earlier since it is the Council of Trent the Roman Catholic Council

of Trent that has dogmatically Declared the gospel that I embrace the

Protestant gospel as false.

In fact, I am anathematized by Rome for believing it I am declared accursed and

that dogma and those dogmas I should say from the Council of Trent Can

never be overturned.

They can never be renounced Ex -cathedra by a Pope Because they are

dogma and as my friend James, I'm sure Knows and

agrees.

There is a difference Between something that is a dogma and a discipline in the Catholic Church a dogma is

forever binding upon a faithful Catholic and since the Council of Trent

declared dogmatically that my gospel is false that would I would have to have

no other conclusion than to Believe that the Roman Catholic Church has a different gospel than I

do and since there is only one Biblical gospel, I believe that the Church of Rome obviously

as a Protestant I believe that the Church of Rome has a false gospel and just as the Judaizers

That Paul contended with especially in regard to the Church of Galatia in the New Testament.

Since he said that they had no gospel at all and he declared upon them a

curse I Cannot reconcile in my mind how I can view Those that are

dogmatically faithful to the Church of Rome in regard to the gospel as my brothers in Christ now having

said that I believe that there are many Roman Catholics who are my brothers and sisters in Christ because

either knowingly or unconsciously they are believing in the biblical gospel in opposition

to the dogmatic gospel of their own church.

And I've met a number of people like that my mother for instance who I was telling you before who on her

deathbed embraced and trusted in the death of

Christ alone as her one and only hope for her salvation and that her salvation had

nothing at all to do with her works her ceremonial

activity with the Roman Catholic Church Etc.

She never told me I hereby renounce The Roman Catholic Church.

She never had any kind of official conversion into Protestantism.

It was the gospel that she shared with me and she renounced she renounced what I would call the the idolatry of

Rome as well and so therefore She and many

other Individuals who I have met I would I would embrace as my brethren.

Because of the fact that they share a gospel with me for a thoroughgoing Catholic like James

sitting opposite me here as far as you're concerned He does believe effectively a false gospel.

A gospel that you believe Includes works at some level in order to in order to to bring about salvation

is is that your view and then we'll obviously cross.

To James for yes, assuming that James agrees with the dogmas of Rome regarding

Justification and salvation.

Yes, I would say that I would agree with you.

Okay, so James is what.

What is your view on this very simple?

Yes, I do accept all the Catholic what the Catholic Church teaches dogmatically, but let me also say I also believe on the

Lord Jesus Christ, I believe that he is my Savior my personal Savior.

I pray to him I ask him for all the things that I need.

I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God.

All of those things that Chris believes about the.

About those things I also believe.

But that's not enough.

Because You've got to ask yourselves a number of important questions about Protestants.

Now let me before I say this once again remind people I am NOT criticizing or saying

or an advertising or cursing or saying that Evangelicals are Chris

are going to hell not saying that at all and neither is the Catholic Church.

And by the way, Chris would please knows that the Council of Trent did not curse either him or any

evangelical Protestants and if If they Use the expression anathema doesn't mean

a curse.

It means excommunication and Protestant churches and communions also excommunicate those who do not

accept their doctrine.

And the Catholic Church does no more nor less than that.

So you are not cursed and as I said at the beginning We believe that if you sincerely believe in

Christ, even though you may have errors That doesn't stop you going to heaven.

You are judged by your lights not by Not embracing something you don't you sincerely

don't believe.

In other words, you're you're judged by your conscience.

But there are a number of problems with okay.

First one.

Go ahead.

First one up is scripture.

I Believe scripture is infallible Word of God.

So do evangelical Protestants, but where does the scripture come from?

How did you get the scripture?

And it's not enough to say as the Reformers said Sola scriptura

scripture alone.

Where does it teach in scripture that scripture alone is a vision for salvation answer?

It doesn't.

Secondly, where do you get?

In fact scripture says the very opposite.

2 Peter 1 20 20 says No prophecy of scripture shall be of any private

interpretation.

What could be clearer than that and if you'll recall the story of the Ethiopian eunuch who when asked did you

understand the gospel?

He said how can I understand unless I have an interpreter?

He needed an interpreter.

That interpreter has got to be an authentic Authoritative interpreter and that interpreter is the teaching office of the

Catholic Church.

But the other thing you have to bear in mind is where did the scripture come from?

How do Protestants have a Bible.

The answer is the Catholic Church gave it to them?

Because for the first 400 years of Christianity there was no canon of scripture.

You could not pick up a book as I am now and say this is the Bible I'm holding up in my hand now a book that

says the Holy Bible.

You couldn't do that in the first 400 years because there wasn't one there wasn't an accepted canon of scripture.

Of course, there were various books, but there was those that were accepted those by scholars.

There was the disputed books the so -called anti -legomenon.

And it wasn't until the Council of Carthage of 397 that the Catholic Church in that Council of bishops

Accepted what we now Have as the Bible, which by the way included the second canon and then

again in the Council of Rome at 404 St. Augustine was present at both of those councils and he accepted their decision.

It was then formally and finally Confirmed at a later Council the Council of Basel for our Florence and

of course later at the Council of Trent but it goes right back to as early as the Council of Carthage

in 397 we have a Bible because the Catholic Church gave it.

You've obviously outlined a number of issues you have with Protestants who claim all you need is faith alone through Christ

alone.

And scripture actually you're saying no.

We need the the authority and teaching of the Catholic Church, which helps us to understand and apply scripture.

And and obviously.

To what extent though does that bear on the issue of salvation specifically for you James?

Do you need to add anything beyond believing in Christ's redemptive work on the cross?

To to be saved essentially, you know, is it important that you do?

I don't know have any beliefs that are specific to Catholicism in that sense.

Well, the perfection of faith is in the Catholic Church, but there are people who have

varying degrees of faith.

Lesser or greater and they they too can be saved according to their lights obviously if you don't believe in God

or if you believe that Satan is God or you know, Ridiculous beliefs or thoroughly blasphemous

beliefs, then your salvation is clearly problematic.

But what we.

Let's turn to the Bible itself as to what is necessary for salvation.

First of all, you have to have faith as I said earlier.

That's a gift of God.

You don't earn that God gives it to you.

And you don't merit it.

You're you get it because God is good and gives us good things.

We we have to cooperate there with God.

We have to cooperate with grace in order to be saved.

We can't just say Dump a whole bucket load of grace on me and I'll be saved.

Let's see what the epistle of st. James says in Chapter 2

verse 14 onwards St. James says this what shall it profit my brethren if a man say

he hath faith but hath not works.

Shall faith be able to save him and if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food and one of you say to Them go

in peace be warmed and filled yet.

Give them not those things that are necessary for the body.

What shall it profit?

So faith also if it have not works is dead in itself, but some man will say thou has faith I have

works show me thy faith without works and I will show you by my works my faith.

Thou believest there is one God thou dost well the devils also believe and tremble.

But will thou know a vain man that faith without works is dead.

So you've got to do something with the faith.

Amen, Kevin.

Okay, let's allow Chris to come in on this.

Go ahead Chris.

Oh, I agree.

Obviously with everything he read from the epistle of James because it is God -breathed truth

and being a Calvinist I would disagree radically with my

So -called Protestant and evangelical brethren those that claim to be evangelical and Protestant

who have Adopted a heresy known very commonly as either easy

believism or cheap grace.

It's basically a repentant less Christianity that does not require the

bearing of good fruit and I can remember I don't know if you folks in the UK are

familiar with a slogan for Missouri One of the states here in

America that is known as the show me state and I can remember a former pastor of mine humorously

saying that James must have been from Missouri because it is the show me state and basically his

epistle is about how we are to show our faith to be genuine and it's through our works if

we are merely a Christian in name only as multitudes of

both Roman Catholics and Protestants are who you know, sometimes that they

are the bare minimum of Activities involved in their lives like

going to church on Christmas and Easter and so on maybe Mother's Day and

I'm sure James is fully aware that that exists just as much in Catholicism as Protestantism, but

If you are not bearing fruit If you are not bearing good fruit Then there is no

sign of life in you you are not regenerate you were not born again so

the Church of Rome obviously believes that these Activities these

deeds are meritorious.

To give you an example of one of the reasons I disagree with James when he said that I am NOT

anathematized by the Council of Trent well.

And.

Canon 17 We read if anyone shall say that the grace

of justification Only befalleth those who are predestined unto life but

that all others are who are called are called indeed, but receive not grace as being the

Divine power predestined unto evil.

Let him be anathema and then we have The other

canon here If anyone shall say that the commandments of God are even for a man that is

justified or constituted in grace impossible to keep let him be anathema and

We have other oh here here's the more here's the more Clear

connection here in Canon Canon 11 we have if

anyone shall say that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the righteousness of God or by the

sole remission of sins to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is shed abroad in their hearts by the

Holy Ghost and is inherent in them or even that the grace by which we are justified is only the

favor of God let him be anathema and we have So many

of the anathemas that would say that things that I clearly believe

Are brought me under a curse.

Here's an even more vivid one in Canon.

24.

If anyone shall say that the justice received is not preserved and also increased in the sight of God through good works

But that the said good works are merely the fruits and signs of justification received But not a

cause of the increase thereof.

Let him be anathema.

That's more directly.

Applicable to what we were talking about you.

These are all examples of Catholic dogma which show that Catholics should

you know believe that works are integral to salvation and grace and so

on.

And and for you that obviously goes against everything that the Reformation did in terms of bringing back the centrality of

you know Salvation through faith by grace and not by works and so on.

And the Declaration says if anyone shall say.

Well, I do say that the justice received is not preserved and also increased

in the sight of God through good works.

And that I do believe that the works are merely the fruits and signs of justification received in that passage from

James.

They're Chris is saying you can talk about works.

But James is clearly talking about these as a sign of someone's not some someone's faith.

Rather than the cause of no, that's that's not what he's saying at all.

Let's remind you what he says.

He says what shall it profit you?

You you show me your works.

If you don't if you can't show me your works, then your faith is dead quite clearly.

Works and that's right together.

But let me just say two things about what Chris has said.

First of all, I didn't say that those views weren't anathematized by the Council of trade.

I said they weren't cursed.

We're not witches cursing people.

We're Means we set you apart because you don't accept the true doctrine.

Protestant churches do exactly the same.

So are you prepared to accept that what's being talked about with these anathemas is actually effectively

Excommunication from the Catholic Church per se.

I'm saying that.

The Church of Rome is Borrowing language from the Apostle Paul in

Galatians when they use the term Anathema.

The Apostle Paul declared an anathema on those who would add Works to faith

for justification.

Those who insisted.

The Judaizers insisted the one thing that they we know that they insisted that be added to faith was

circumcision and We don't know anything else that they disagreed with Paul or the other

Christians on.

We assume that they believed in Jesus Christ and the necessity of faith in him for

salvation.

We don't have Paul criticizing them for anything else other than their addition.

They're requiring circumcision for salvation and The

he declares an anathema.

He curses them or declares an occur a curse upon them.

And so therefore I don't know how anyone could say that this anathema or these anathemas in Trent

are not curses.

Especially when you consider that the Church of Rome was martyring Protestants

For believing in these things and sometimes in very gruesome ways.

I'll allow you to respond to this question of the definition of anathema and and also why for you we don't

have to take The this view of faith versus works and so on in the way that Chris obviously.

Yeah.

Well, first of all.

Let's not get into comparative atrocities.

I can assure you that the Protestant churches and Protestant monarchs were far more savage against Catholics

particularly in this country where we were hanged Drawn and quartered on the order of Queen Elizabeth the

first the Spanish Inquisition only executed throughout an entire 350 year history 300 people and a

lot of them in effigy.

Queen Elizabeth the first executed On the count of religion alone 800 people in the first year of her reign so

let's not get into a comparative atrocities, but let's be clear about one thing an Advertising is not a curse

like a curse of a witch or something like that.

It's it's it's no different from Protestant Excommunication we're going to disagree about that.

So let's move on the what we have to understand here.

Is that works don't save you quay works?

All you're doing is cooperating with the grace of God.

Okay?

Okay.

So the difference between the Protestant Catholic doctrine here is is not all that great.

But there is a difference and we shouldn't pretend there isn't what kind of thing would we we're not going to do good.

Anything good feeding the poor being good to your neighbor looking after your children your wife being faithful working hard.

These are all works.

Everybody agrees, but those aren't the things that bring you salvation.

They're simply cooperating.

Grace is necessary for salvation.

Okay, it's not enough to say I believe the gospel, but I'm gonna go and murder my brother.

Okay.

Now to be fair evangelicals say well if you murder your brother, we're not sure you really do believe the gospel.

But then you're getting into psychology then you're getting into Difficult areas where nobody can

make a proper judgment.

The fact is you can't make a judgment.

This guy may be a an evangelical, but if he murders his brother, however much he believes he says he believes the gospel.

He's clearly not a good Christian.

That's really what the whole Watson James is getting out there.

But there's there's there's another problem and that's this effectively if the Protestant Reformers.

And beginning with Luther and by the way Luther condemned the epistle of St. James.

Precisely because it said faith without works is dead.

He called it a pistol.

Ma a pistol a stram in a mayor stram in a an epistle of straw if we're going to say well.

Then you the gospel arrives with Luther.

Throughout the history of Christianity.

There is a sort of remnant somewhere who believe what the Protestant Reformers believe.

Where is this remnant?

Where is the evidence of it?

The answer is there isn't one there is there were no people.

Perhaps you might say the the the Lollards or someone but before that time

from the very beginning of Christianity.

There were no people believing what people like Luther and Calvin Melanchthon and the other reformers believed.

So what you what you're stuck with and the difficulty that you have to overcome is an absence of true Christians

for the better part of 1300 to 1500 years of Christianity.

This is this is clean contrary to the biblical doctrine that the gates of hell will not prevail against the

church.

Because if for 13 or 1500 years there are no Christians.

There are a few around the time of Christ.

We think but you won't find many there who adopt the same doctrine as Luther or Calvin and then suddenly in about

1530 Or 1507 in Wittenberg bingo Christianity

arrives with Martin Luther.

It's just not credible.

Well, I if I believe that's when Christianity arrived.

Which I don't I Would think that that is as equally preposterous as you believe it

is.

I don't believe that that's when Christianity arrived.

Of course, I don't believe that Martin Luther Invented novel ideas.

In fact, the reformers were making use of the patristic evidence for what they

believed in their debates with Roman Catholics and I very highly

recommend a book by the way called the Church of Rome at the bar of history by William Webster which is

published by the banner of truth trust where he goes through many of the the

origins of actual dogmas of Rome.

In fact, in fact.

We're going to be picking up where we left off there in the debate that I had with James Bogle

Roman Catholic apologist James.

Bogle.

There in the UK We have to go to our midway break right now.

So, please be patient with us.

We have to have a 12 -minute break and then when we return We will continue the airing the recording of the

debate that I had with James Bogle and then we will have Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist

Seminary professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

Also a former Roman Catholic who converted to biblical Christianity and more specifically who

became a reformed Baptist.

We will have him join us giving his assessment of The the debate

and I hope that you don't go away.

Because a god -willing.

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And welcome back.

This is Chris Arndt and if you just tuned us in we have been playing and when we'll continue to play

The remaining five minutes or so of a debate that I had on the UK radio

broadcast Unbelievable hosted by Justin Brierley.

I had this debate with James Bogle who is a British barrister?

There in the UK, which is an attorney and he's also the head of a Roman Catholic

Apostolate there In the UK and we had a debate.

He is a former Anglican who converted into Roman Catholicism or converted to Roman Catholicism

and I as anybody who listens to this program with any Irregularity, you know that I am a

former Roman Catholic who came to embrace what I believe to be Biblical Christianity and the

biblical gospel of Jesus Christ when I became a reformed Baptist.

Before I continue playing the remaining five minutes of that Debate we

will also of course later on after that immediately following we will have dr Tony Costa

of Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He is the professor of apologetics And Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He will be joining us to give his assessment of the debate.

After the last five minutes are played.

But before I do that, I just have a couple of very important announcements.

First of all, the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology is being held

April 13th through the 15th and also April 27th through the 29th.

April 13th through the 15th.

It will be held at the first Christian Reform Church in Byron Center, Michigan.

And April 27th through the 29th, it will be held at the Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania.

I intend God willing to be at the latter event.

The theme is the spirit of the age in the age of the Spirit.

The speakers include Daniel Aiken Richard Gaffin Daniel Hyde Conrad and Bayway the man that I believe is

the most powerful preacher Alive on the planet Earth Richard Phillips Jonathan master David Murray and Scott

Oliphant.

If you would like to register for These conferences either one or both either

the one in Michigan or the one in Pennsylvania go to Alliance net org

Alliance net org click on events and then click on the Philadelphia Conference on

Reform Theology.

Please make sure you let the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals know that you heard about

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Then.

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through your donations before we Get dr. Tony Costa on the line.

We just have five minutes more of The debate to play.

Where we left off before the break was where I was Recommending the book the Church

of Rome at the Bar of History by William Webster published by Banner of Truth

because my debating opponent James Bogle was making the

assertion that the false assertion that Protestantism did not exist in its

theology that is Until the rise of Martin Luther in the 16th century

and that we are to believe that for 15 some odd years prior to

Luther's ministry the Roman Catholic Church Was in relative harmony and unison

and was basically a monolithic religion where People agreed on the vast

majority of everything and I was declaring or refuting and were rebutting

Mr. Bogle's comments.

By.

Basically saying that it was absurd that.

That.

Luther was the first to teach the things that he taught in the Reformation and that he was Not only leaning

heavily on the scriptures primarily, but he was also Leaning upon the writings of the church fathers.

Themselves, but here we are picking up the debate at that point and it will only be five minutes or

so.

Until the conclusion, I'm sure very quickly admit

that some of the crucial dogmas of Rome that separate them

from Evangelical Protestantism or even Reformation Protestantism

would be things that came about in the 19th and 20th

centuries and I'm speaking specifically of the declaration the formal declaration Ex

cathedra of papal infallibility in 1870 and the assumption of Mary in 1950.

So if we're going to talk about things arriving on the scene late in history like

as if Martin Luther invented Justification by faith alone, then we will have to obviously bring into

consideration that some of Rome's Dogmas were officially

declared.

After some of our listeners were even born before we go to a quick break at just a couple of minutes

I'll let you answer in just a moment James.

And on the other side of a quick break I mean I did also want to come back to the issue that James raised right at the beginning which I think ties into

Some of what he's been saying just now.

Around the fact that as far as he can see the stability the continuity the preservation of doctrine within the Catholic

Church compared to what?

You see since the Reformation of so many different Strands of Protestantism is itself

another marker of the truth of Catholicism.

What do you say to that Chris.

Because in my experience many of the people I've met who've converted to Catholicism from some kind of?

Protestant evangelical Christianity that's often been a very significant thing for them as well.

And I'm surprised at the number of people I do meet who have converted in that way.

Do it is there anything in that as far as you can see that that makes sense to you Chris?

No because as our guests well knows there are very few times in

history where things have been declared as dogma by the Church of Rome and Unlike

the propaganda of the Church of Rome that they are monolithic that they are one true church.

There are I would believe more divisions amongst Roman Catholics that have not been

Disciplined or excommunicated.

There are more divisions than you would find amongst Conservative Evangelical Protestant.

If you are not a conservative evangelical Protestant we would Join many Roman Catholics in

declaring you to be apostate.

Liberal mainline Protestantism isn't included in this equation because those of my brethren and

conservative Protestantism and especially conservative reformed Calvinism would not even

recognize these apostates who deny Pillars of the faith such as

the Trinity the deity of Christ the virgin birth of Christ.

The.

Resurrection the bodily resurrection of Christ.

These people don't even fit into the equation when you're talking about the the true church from your perspective.

Obviously Chris you're talking about a certain a certain subset of of what we sometimes broadly call Protestantism.

Yes, and there are on there are Roman Catholics.

There are many Roman Catholics who are even teaching in Roman Catholic universities and seminaries who

deny not only cardinal.

Biblical truths but Catholic truths there are a whole myriad of Roman Catholics rather like the one you ran into as a young

man Who didn't give you a good answer on the question of heaven, but let's let's we'll come to that as well.

I'm sure James will want to respond to a few of the things you've brought up there at The towards the end of this section of the program and

time is running away from us as ever.

You're listening to unbelievable on premiere Christian radio.

So we're concluding our debate on Catholicism and Protestantism.

It's one of those shows where we bring a Christian and another type of Christian together rather than a Christian and a non -christian.

Today.

Chris Armstrong is a reformed Baptist the host of the iron sharpens iron radio show.

He was once a Catholic.

He told us why he became a Protestant and why he now critiques Catholicism.

James Bogle in studio with me as vice chairman of the Catholic Union of Great Britain he's been telling us about his journey from

Anglicanism to Catholicism and why he doesn't agree with Chris's assessment of the

Catholic faith.

And Just in that last section Chris particularly was homing in on the fact James

that in his view Certain dogmas have arisen pretty late in the day when it comes to Catholicism whether

it be the assumption of Mary or other things.

So so just to claim that.

That the what Luther and Calvin brought was the sort of a novel interpretation of Christianity is a bit unfair

and and of course again, he said and Catholicism itself is not this monolithic thing that you

claim it to be there.

It's full of people who disagree over doctrine who are heretical in one way or another.

So yes, the well, let me deal with the last one first, which is very easy.

There are there is there's Orthodox Protestantism.

There are a lot of people within Protestantism who don't accept it.

It's the same in the Catholic Church.

It's What we're comparing is doctrines.

We're not comparing people who bad behave badly within those communions.

It's the same applies equally to Protestants as to Catholics.

There are plenty of Roman Catholics professors priests who teach error same in the Protestant Church.

So that's a non -argument doesn't get any.

Isn't Chris's point then the monolithic part.

Yes I was on calls it yeah of the Catholic faith is what its Authoritative voice

says consists and teachers consistently throughout history diachronically.

Okay, not what a whole lot of people who are bad Catholics Who don't don't listen to

their pastors or don't read properly or don't understand properly or are deliberately rejecting What they think

because that applies equally to any church it applies equally to other religions.

Do you think?

Should be of course not.

Hanselman completely rejects.

The Catholic faith has no right to call himself a Catholic and has already been has already been made clear by the the

by the Supreme Pontiff of the church that he is not a Catholic.

Why hasn't he been excommunicated then?

He's excommunicated himself according to Canon law.

Okay is self -excommunicated right.

And there are lots of people like that.

And who is this?

I missed that who was self -excommunicator.

And Hans Kung professor Hans Kung.

He's a very Theologian that that's his non -argument.

The real issue here And I'm sure Chris would agree with this is not whether there are bad Catholics and bad Protestants.

But what does each faith or confession teach.

Is it consistent?

Is it true?

Is it biblical?

That's what this debate is about now.

Let's go to the Marian dogmas because it is.

I often frequently said they're not biblical or they tell taught late.

They're not taught late.

They've been believed since the beginning of the church.

All that had happened in 1915 in 1859 is that there was a formal seal put on.

The.

The definitions of what those beliefs were.

In other words the wording of the belief was Formulated by the authority of a magisterium teaching office

of the church the chief bishop the chief priest.

It wasn't just something which sprung up suddenly in the 1950s the proof of that.

Let's take the Immaculate Conception, which was which was finally defined not believed not created.

But defined in 1856.

I think that was believed by Martin Luther all of his life and by all of the Protestant reformers.

With the possible exception of John Calvin.

Here is what Luther said.

He said mother Mary like us was born in sin of sinful parents, but the Holy Spirit covered her Sanctified

and purified her so that this child was born of flesh and blood but not with sinful flesh and blood.

The Holy Spirit permitted the Virgin Mary to remain a true natural human being of flesh and blood just as we however He warded

off sin from her flesh and blood.

So did she became the mother of a pure child not poisoned by sin as we are for in that moment when she conceived.

She was a holy mother Filled with the Holy Spirit and her fruit is a holy pure fruit of once God and truly man in one

person by the way.

He also believed in the perpetual virginity of our lady.

He also believed she was the mother of God.

He used that expression used it all his life some of his followers and I mean obviously he would have believed these as a

Catholic.

But he continued to believe them as a Protestant all his life.

Yes.

Exception.

He believed them.

He believed all seed except Mary was vitiate.

Okay, let's let's see what Chris has to say.

Then yeah, she's not a novel doctrine.

Okay, this has been taught since the beginning of the church and some surprisingly Protestant people believed it to.

Well, let's go to Chris.

Chris and that's an interesting turn up, isn't it?

That that that Luther who in birth the ref reformation in many ways Actually accepted

what we would you would regard obviously as probably heretical doctrines.

Well, first of all, that's one of the reasons that I believed as did Luther in sola scriptura not in solo

Luther or solo Calvin.

These are mere men who I disagreed with on a number of things.

Martin Luther believed in baptismal regeneration, which I reject and Lutherans today who

I trust are accurately Interpreting Luther believe you could lose your salvation if

you're truly born again, which I reject.

So I just because a great hero of the Reformation may believe in something doesn't mean that I

must agree with it because if it's not in the scripture I won't but the the issue of Luther is

also you got to remember that Luther was among the first of the Reformers who

Was still.

I mean he never he never intended to leave the Catholic Church and form another church

and he was over decades in his life Shedding things that he

had believed all his life.

Gradually when he was a Catholic he retained even to his death some of those things.

But there are different Martin Luther's if you will in different stages of his life.

He didn't always believe in everything he believed as a Catholic.

Even though you may find him repeating some of those things later on.

And of course, I am NOT a historian.

I'm not even a trained theologian.

So I would point people to a debate that I just recently had

Arranged between dr Tony Costa of the Toronto Baptist Seminary who is a former Catholic who

became Protestant and that my other friend Robertson Genesis was a Roman Catholic apologist.

They are both friends of mine.

In fact, I've known Robert much longer the Roman Catholic apologist and They just debated very

recently on the immaculate conception and perpetual sinlessness of Mary.

If you go to YouTube, you could find that if you just type in Tony cost a debate with Robertson

Janice and of course, dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries has debated Catholics

for many years.

I Orchestrated personally ten of them and you could go to a o m I n org a o

m I n org to find out about all of those Roman Catholic debates.

So yeah, as you know, I when I was invited to participate today I thought that we were merely giving our

testimonies and having some exchange.

I didn't think this was going to be a formal debate something that I have never personally done.

I've only arranged many debates.

Well, I appreciate you stepping into the role of the the debater today in this conversational style.

Obviously that we're doing today.

I understand we can't address every concern an issue that comes up and so we are gonna have to draw things to a close in just a couple of

Minutes time.

James you want to make a final comment?

Yeah.

Sorry feels slightly ambushed.

I'm apologize for that Chris, but It is important to remember that there is one thing that council

and Trent did reject with detestation.

And that was the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination the idea that God sends people to hell.

Whatever they do.

He has said from before time you're going to hell.

I don't care what you do whether you try to be good whether you try to believe whether you try to have faith.

You're going to hell.

Mm -hmm.

That should be condemned.

It is a monstrous doctrine.

It is a wicked doctrine.

It is an evil doctrine because of the way to fuck you defined it.

Protestantism.

It ran into the sand towards the end of the 18th century.

Congregationalists, I appreciate Chris is not a congregation.

So this is not directed at his people.

They believed they were by the way, the followers of Oliver Cromwell the man who was responsible for butchering children in drocheter

in Ireland.

They believed that they could vote in their congregations.

For doctrine and that is what they decided to do in the middle of the year or towards the end of the 18th century in New England in America.

They voted on guess what folks the Trinity because you can search the scriptures as much as you like.

You will never once find the word the Trinity you will find Christ saying the Father and I are one but this requires

interpretation.

Half of them voted against the Trinity and became Unitarians the other half remain congregated Trinitarian

congregations.

That's why you have a church on either side of the green in so many places in New England and those Unitarians Eventually

became deists and many of them lost their faith.

By the way, a lot of the American founding fathers were Unitarian and a lot of the places that were Unitarian.

Meeting houses are now secular societies and that kind of thing.

You're that you're and you seem to be insinuating that once you devolve if you like that authority from

the Catholic Church you end up seeing all kinds of different.

I mean Chris, I'll let you have the last word as we just start to close out today's program.

I mean for you what is.

Why should someone who's currently a Catholic let's say be a Baptist

or not a Baptist.

But certainly someone who obviously believes in the reform view of Christian salvation.

Well, because if you read the book of Galatians the Apostle Paul condemned as

False teachers those who added anything to faith in order to justify them in

that case.

It was circumcision and Roman Catholicism.

It's much more than that.

There are more ceremonial ongoing Rights and activities that are required

to cooperate with grace.

But and by the way, I agree that if the definition of double predestination

that James gave was accurate, I would wholeheartedly condemn that as a false

teaching.

But it is not an accurate definition because in Romans 8 8 According to what we

believe is Calvinists in regard to total depravity Those who are in the flesh cannot

please God.

So therefore you don't have this situation where Most of humanity is really trying to please God and they

are really want to believe in him Biblically, and they really love him and

have repented.

But they are not of the elect and will be cast into hell.

That situation does not exist because only the elect of God are Given new hearts and

therefore do respond with good works as we heard earlier in James.

So there's not this there's nobody on the on the day of judgment who is actually a genuinely

repentant believer Who is going to be cast into hell because he was not of the elect and he didn't know it.

Oh, I didn't have the lottery ticket of the elect.

So I'm going to hell.

This is just this is a scenario that will never occur.

We're gonna have to draw things to a close there.

Thank you both for a spirited engagement and a representation of your different positions today.

James Bogle has been with me vice -chairman of the Catholic Union of Great Britain.

Want to find out more about them.

Catholic Union org UK.

And James, thank you for telling us your story and obviously making a defense of your Catholic faith.

Chris Arnson is a Reformed Baptist host of the iron sharpens iron radio show.

You can find that at iron sharpens iron radio dot -com.

Chris.

Thanks for joining me on the program as well today.

It was my pleasure.

I really enjoyed it.

Nice to meet you Chris.

Great to have you both.

Yeah, nice to meet you too.

And by the way, I didn't feel ambushed at all.

I just was surprised that it would be actually a debate that didn't feel ambushed though.

Oh good.

I'm glad to have a nice day and God bless you you too.

And thank you for listening.

We're going to be hearing some of your feedback to recent editions of the show.

This is the program that aims to get you thinking hope it has today.

Well, there you have it that was the debate that we had James Bogle and I the Roman Catholic

barrister there in Great Britain.

That we had some time right before Reformation Day last year

I here on the phone in the United States and James Bogle there in the studio at the

unbelievable radio headquarters there and I believe London in the UK and

Now right after a very short break.

I apologize to dr Tony Costa that we have been keeping him waiting longer than I thought.

That was a little bit more than five minutes that was remaining on that debate.

But we're going to take a very very brief commercial break and then we'll be back with don't with dr

Tony Costa who will be giving his assessment of this debate not only for the remainder of

today's program but the entirety of the two -hour program on Monday God willing so

don't go away.

We'll be right back with the final Can 24 minutes or so of the program with dr. Tony

Costas assessment of the debate?

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Now. We are finally back to the Discussion where we are going to have

dr. Tony Costa who is professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist

Seminary, he is going to be giving his assessment and critique of The debate that I had with

James Bogle on the unbelievable Radio program in the UK and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you

back to iron sharpens iron radio my dear friend.

Dr. Tony Costa.

And I saw and I apologize for having you holding on there longer than I expected.

Well, that term is applied for Calvinists everywhere in the world I think.

Well.

First of all, let's have your overall Opinion of the debate and be merciful to me because it was my very first

debate and I didn't even know I was having one.

Well, I got on the phone to do this.

Right and of course.

There are there have been Roman Catholics who have Emailed me after this debate who have said that

I was dodging issues.

Well, I wasn't dodging anything because if you notice during the debate Justin

Brierley would ask A number of questions to mr. Bogle and mr.

Bogle would respond by discussing a number of issues and then

The host Justin Brierley would specifically ask me about one of those issues.

Right, and so and it's always and by the way, I'm not saying anything here to Insult,

Justin Brierley.

I'm looking forward to have him having him on my program as a guest soon.

I really enjoyed this exchange.

I hope that he has me back and I think Justin did an excellent job and I

Enjoyed even the give -and -take with James Bogle.

I was not insulted personally by anything.

He said I think that he.

Kept a.

Respectful demeanor throughout the program in spite of the fact that we had sharp

disagreements with one another.

But let's start right at the beginning the first thing that got

the hairs on the back of my neck to stand up that.

That James Bogle said during this exchange was when he quoted the

often repeated line from the 19th century Anglican

Bishop or Cardinal Or Anglican who converted to Roman Catholicism

and became a Roman Catholic Cardinal John Henry Newman Right to do these to be deep in or to

be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant or to be steeped in History is to cease to be Protestant.

I have found a hundred and eighty degrees opposite.

To be the case in my own journey out of Roman Catholicism and studying history.

What what do you have to say about that yourself?

I agree.

I agree with you as well that there are.

Right, especially when you're talking about some of the primary

Dogmas of Rome that are believed today in practice today when you look into the

patristic evidence, right?

Most of them are totally absent and what they will do.

I have noticed Roman Catholic apologists will take a phrase and blow it up

into this gigantic dogma that the Patristic evidence

does not support at all.

Like for instance the fact that you will hear Church fathers use the phrase the real

presence of Christ as if There are no Protestants Who

believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist that they will blow that up to mean that must mean transubstantiation.

Right and things like that.

So, uh, right.

Now, I

don't know if

there's anything else you care to mention about history right

now.

But I have another thing that immediately caught my attention.

Yeah,

if I could

just add if I

can

sure yeah, that is that.

Well the

the next thing that

immediately

caught my

attention.

Was this notion that?

Mr. Bogle has.

In fact, this is not exclusively a concept that Roman Catholics teach, but I hear

Armenians and non -reformed Protestants say this routinely.

That God offers faith to everybody and it's up to us

to accept faith now.

The thing that that puzzles me about that phrase that I hear repeated a lot by non -Calvinists is

when in anyone's life is God offering them faith.

People are confronted with whether or not they are going to believe upon Christ and

Repent and follow him, but what is this?

Divine offering of faith ever.

Coming into anyone's life.

In fact, I guess you would need faith to accept faith.

Yeah

that.

That that whole concept.

I mean it's as if there is a blind spot there where these folks both Roman Catholics

and Armenians don't recognize that you would need faith to accept this offer of faith.

So so who gives it who gives you that, you know, who gives you that faith?

The other the other thing that Struck me initially or early on in the debate

was the comment that Mr. Bogle made about

When he came to faith in The Roman Catholic Church or what he came to accept

the the faith and the gospel and the religion of Roman Catholicism.

It was a meeting of the heart and mind and he said Evangelicalism is by and large

just a meeting of the heart.

Now when I heard that I said to myself, I guess Mr. Bogle doesn't watch the journey

home radio or TV program I should say with with the

parade of former Protestants that come on to the program to give their testimonies

as to why They converted converted to Catholicism and the vast majority that I

have ever heard are all based on emotion and sentimentalism.

The way they felt when they saw people receiving the mass.

Where Scott Hahn even says he began to salivate?

And say that he didn't want Christ just in his mouth now that he wanted him in his stomach as well.

You have a lot of.

Very.

Earthy fleshy based reasons.

Now, of course.

You could go by a case -by -case situation where you're going to have Protestants who became Catholics because

they were scholarly and.

They.

In their distorted understanding of history came to believe

in the teachings of Roman Catholicism because they accepted things that were false about the

the dogmas of Rome having been taught throughout the entirety of Christendom since the

Gospel was first declared in the New Testament era.

But but you know you have that situation also with with Protestants who were for

former Roman Catholics who after studying the scripture.

After.

Learning what the the Hebrew and the Greek passages were really

saying and so on you could go on and on with how the intellect was a major part of conversions.

Absolutely, and I think that would be my case when examine

Christianity at

a deeper

that is

not our position.

So I think that

was a yes and

and I am in

full agreement with.

Mr. Vogel that there is a lot of Sugar -coated syrupy sweet mushy gushy.

Things going on in evangelicalism that are based solely on emotion.

Not that I'm not saying that mr Vogel use those descriptions.

I'm using those descriptions, but but I'm not trying to give the.

The.

Impression that I believe that the evangelical world is some think -tank of

geniuses that.

That.

Have come to their conclusions purely by study and so on.

But of course we know that the emotion is involved and in fact if somebody is not rejoicing that they

have been rescued from.

Sin.

Death and damnation.

There is something wrong with them and they probably are still dead in their sins if they're not having an emotional response

to that.

Uh.

Well, uh the oh the the other thing was that and you've

already touched on this.

That.

The thing that was very appealing To mr. Vogel in his being drawn to Roman

Catholicism.

Is that the Roman Catholic Church?

Never.

Has contradicted itself in the realm of dogma if you could

comment on that.

Yeah,

sure.

I

mean

when

you

have

going

against

locating

heresy,

like

yes, and.

Of course we All have to recognize them if the Roman Catholics are going to be honest as well.

There is a lot of stuff up for grabs within the Roman Catholic

Church and in the realm of disagreement because as I said to mr. Vogel

there have Been very few instances in the last 2 ,000 years of

Church history where there have been Ex -cathedra

declarations by Popes and where things have been dogmatically defined and of course it would be far less than 2 ,000 years because

Popes didn't exist in the First centuries of the church, but

There there is I as I said to him there is and I was wondering if you agreed with me.

I believe without hesitation that there is much more division amongst Roman

Catholics under the umbrella of Roman Catholicism and then there is amongst conservative

evangelical Bible believing Protestants and the reason why I am very specific about that is we

believe that if you're denying the inerrancy of the scripture if you're denying the

Historicity of Jesus and that he was truly man and truly God and born of a virgin and

who died on Calvary to make payment for the sins of his people and that he bodily

rose from the dead and ascended into heaven and So on and all the other dogmas of the faith or the the

pillars of the faith that we as Protestants believe if you reject those We don't even think you're a Christian.

Whereas Roman Catholicism they will grant the title and the comfort of

being Roman Catholic to a much wider Spectrum of people who believe

all kinds of insane things and I'm right.

Oh, I and

and then not

to mention the

unity that it

but they nonetheless

hold it and not to mention.

Deny these

cardinal.

Yes.

And and what what do you make of this cop -out?

I think.

And please forgive me.

Mr Bogle if you think that's a harsh word, but to say like for instance when Justin Briarley

brought up Hans Kuhn and he's he's he's excommunicated himself according to canon law.

Yes,

he

kept

saying

I.

Am NOT cursing You Chris Arnzen and no Catholic has ever cursed a

Protestant or anyone else like a witch.

He kept saying like witches we don't do this, but but it's interesting if you look in the

Roman Catholic edition of the scriptures one of the

Roman Catholic editions, there are obviously a lot more than one, but if you go to the

the website of the United States Conference of Catholic bishops The edition

that they chose to use on their own website The new American

Bible not to be confused with the New American Standard Bible, which is a Protestant Bible.

In fact the sponsor of this show, but if you go to Galatians Where you

have in chapter 1 and verse 8 This is the way the wrote this Roman Catholic edition of the

scriptures reads.

But even if we are an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than the one

That we preach to you let that one be Accursed.

Yeah, and then in verse 9 as we have said before and now I say again If anyone preaches to you a

gospel other than the one that you received let that one be Accursed

so this is not some Protestant development of their morbid

imagination.

This is actually what you as you just said not only what the Greek word term means but the Roman Catholic

Church uses it at least in some of their their translations.

And of

course

and.

For the sake of this discussion None of those Protestant translations means anything if you're having a

conversation with a Catholic the the translation that the United States Conference of Catholic bishops

used should have some importance to them and when it uses.

The term accursed, of course, that's what it means.

And I don't think Mr.

Bogle understand the Greek the Greek meaning of that word.

Well, even if you want to take his definition, which is kind of strange He says it just means

excommunication.

Well, who are you?

Excommunicating I mean who is someone who is to be excommunicated?

You don't excommunicate someone because they have a different understanding of eschatology than you do

unless it involves denying the physical visible bodily return of Christ in the future resurrection of the dead or something,

but but you're not going to excommunicate someone who Has

a different form of liturgy than you do.

And you could go on and on and on with differences of opinion that That Christians have with one

another just because of the fact that we are not We are not infallible inerrant

and perfect sinless people.

But but but you're you're excommunicating people because you believe they are damned and that they are heretics and that

they're dangerous.

That's exactly right elements

are

simply

right and I growing

up

Catholic and I'm

assuming this

is still

the

official.

Teaching of the Catholic Church.

They don't want Protestants or others who deny Transubstantiation receiving

that sacrament.

Church.

Yes, I mean I I have been at weddings and funerals and I will see some of

my professedly born -again believing evangelical Protestant friends going up.

Yeah.

For a Roman Catholic Mass if the if the wedding and the funeral is in a Roman Catholic Church and they're having a mass.

Because then not all of those ceremonies include a mass.

That's right, but.

And I'm sitting there astonished and I've said to my friends or acquaintances, why did you do

that?

Well, I just know what I believe in my heart about the Lord's Supper and I also didn't want to be disrespectful.

Well, they don't want you doing that.

I mean that local parish priest might not care but the Church of Rome does not.

In fact if you remember there was something scandalous with President Bill Clinton.

I don't know if he was in Africa.

He was somewhere overseas when he went forward to receive a Roman Catholic Eucharist

and and the Roman Catholics were upset in the media.

Now when we return

on

Monday, I

want us to pick up

at the discussion where the discussion.

Became over the martyrs and those who were being tortured and executed for

being heretics.

The reason it seemed to escape Mr. Bogle's

Mind that the reason that I brought up the torturous executions and

gruesome deaths of people that the Church of Rome anathematized in

those centuries not only in the 16th century but prior and

after.

The reason I brought that up was because he was just claiming it was some kind of mild mannered

Excommunication and I brought it up the reason that why were they being burned at the stake and disemboweled

and so on.

But we'll pick up where where we left off there next Monday this coming Monday.

Okay, I obviously know that Protestants were guilty of Gruesome activity at times in history

against not only against Roman Catholics, but I think even probably Numerically more predominantly

Anabaptists and others.

Yes.

We'll pick that up where we left off.

Do you have any final words in about a minute or so before we go off the air and before we return next Monday?

I think he really.

Well, I know that the Toronto Baptist Seminary website is TBS

edu TBS for Toronto Baptist Seminary dot edu.

Do you have any other contact information?

Well, they could always visit my website if they'd like it.

And the website again is Tony Costa

dot web web.

Tony Costa dot webs.

Dot -com and webs has one BW EBS.

Well, thank you so much. Dr. Costa.

I look forward to having you back on Monday.

I want to thank everybody who listened today.

I hope you all have a safe and blessed weekend and Lord's Day.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ

is a far far greater Savior Than you are a sinner.

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for dr Tony Costa this Monday on iron sharpens iron radio.