December 22, 2017 Show with Michael Gaydosh on “The Most Important Things to Know About Jesus This Christmas & Always” AND John Samson on “How a Former Heretic Was Transformed Theologically with the Help of Dr. R. C. Sproul”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens

iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on

this last live program before Christmas.

Friday, December 22nd 2017.

And It is my honor and privilege to have two dear friends back on the program today to

address two very important topics.

During the first hour of the program.

We have my dear friend who is not only my dear friend, but he's also my very first pastor

after my rebirth and He has been a friend a brother an encourager and

mentor ever since That was would have been in the mid -1980s and he

is also founder of solid ground Christian books.

He during the first hour is going to discuss the most important things to know about Jesus this Christmas and

always.

And then the second hour a mutual friend of both Mike a dash and myself John

Sampson.

Who is an author with some works published by solid ground Christian books?

And he's also a pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona.

He's going to be discussing how a former heretic was transformed theologically with the help of dr. RC Sproul.

But first of all, let me welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio for the first hour.

Mike gay dash.

Thank you, Chris.

I appreciate the opportunity to be able to come on especially be able to speak the

glorious one who so many years ago

during this season of incarnate.

Amen and.

Before we do that Why don't you.

Just for those of my listeners who may be joining iron sharpens iron radio for the first time because it seems like we're Getting

new listeners joining us nearly every single day judging from the emails I'm getting.

Tell our listeners about solid ground Christian books.

Well solid ground began 17 years ago going on 18 years ago actually

in Birmingham, Alabama.

We had just my wife and I.

Susie had just moved from New York after being in New York about 20 years of ministry.

Enrolled in Birmingham the Lord opened up a door for us to

begin a new publishing man.

We called it solid ground Christian books.

Our desire is that people who purchase books from us and have books published by

us will and We've been doing this for almost 18 years.

Have customers in all 50 states and many countries all over the world.

We're shipping to New Zealand and Australia

Germany and Canada and every

week real delight to be at

people and to people who don't know the Lord as well.

So It's a it's a great opportunity for us to and we

have many many people who work with us and help us to be able to get the books that we get and

We're just grateful to God for the team of people that he has raised up.

Do what we do.

We have about 350 titles that are in print right now and We're working on

things all the time.

New things as you mentioned John Sampson Has published a couple of books through us the 12.

What about?

Addressing the issue of the doctrine of election and seeking to answer the questions that people ask by

16.

What about.

He does an excellent job in that book of doing that and then he did a second

smaller book and it's the five solas of the

Reformation that he published and we did it as a Reformation 500 title and

it's done.

Well, we're very grateful to the Lord for the opportunity to be able to get both of those books out and

get John Sampson's name out there and Involved in helping get

John's name out there as you've interviewed John many times on.

Yes.

And I'm looking forward to my next interview with him in just about 45 minutes or so.

Yeah and I know that you weren't expecting this so this may be too

off the cuff for you, but I'm planning on having guests for at least a little while.

That I know were in some way blessed by R .C. Sproul.

Just to say a couple of words about Dr. Sproul who is now in glory since he just departed

this earth and entered into eternity with Christ just last week.

And I was wondering what you could tell our listeners about what R .C. Sproul meant to you.

I know that I am Forever grateful to you and your pastoring over at

Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville and then later Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island and Merrick because

you were a very key factor that introduced me to many of the great men of

the Christian faith and more specifically the Reformed faith both those

contemporary and those from history and It was through you and

Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville that I first discovered as a very young Christian the Philadelphia Conference

on Reformed Theology, which I began attending annually and one of my very first

Experiences there was hearing and seeing Dr. Sproul preach in person, but if you could

Tell us anything that you could say.

About Peter

Falk.

Haha, I can't believe you said that.

Lumbo he.

Always reminded me of Columbo and I can't believe you said that because I've told people that same thing as well.

Yeah, when Columbo's like walking away with the trench coat and he turns around.

Wait a minute.

Let me ask you just one more thing.

That was one of the things that he was a disciple of John

Gerstner and When you when you hear Gerstner you hear

you can see the impact that Gerstner had on.

Dr Sproul's life and ministry and And I the

Lord real and in

fact one of the earlier books that I published was

Reformed

Theology and Messages are in that book

an

excellent excellent book on the

sovereignty of God and and I just appreciated very much

To the doctrines of grace and he had a very gracious sense of humor.

Sure, you

heard

this when he was asked he was

at the yes Sproul why you know

that we have so much in common.

Why are you not a distance ation list?

I think it beat you said.

Apparently everybody kind of held their breath for a moment and then kind of burst out laughing.

Like his famous line what's wrong with you people right like that.

In fact, dr.

MacArthur as you may have seen and did a very humorous.

Or said some very humorous things about his friendship with dr. Sproul at the memorial, so it was a quite.

Oh, yeah, I didn't.

I didn't get a chance to hear the whole thing.

I heard part of it, but I yeah.

He was yes, right.

Yes.

She's the one that brought the main message.

I don't know if you would say it's the main message, but he was one of those who brought a message.

Okay?

Anyway, yes to see the men

that just to hear the testimonies of the

impact That dr. Sproul had on people's lives and he's he

was a man that God greatly used and and we're

thankful to God for him and for the work that he did at Ligonier the vision that he

had and and Just the number of men who were raised up to come alongside

him and will continue the work.

There at at Ligonier.

So yeah, and of course you are tied in with my Most hilarious

incident with dr. Sproul that which took place at Calvary Baptist Church in Manhattan after you

Brought back into print heaven a world of love by Jonathan Edwards.

Oh, yeah, and dr. Sproul was speaking at a conference at Calvary Baptist in Manhattan and

When he finished a message that he was delivering I knew that this man would

probably be going to the bathroom.

So I ducked out into the hallway and dr. Sproul's walking down the hallway and I said, dr. Sproul, dr.

Sproul I have a question to ask for you and he goes.

Well, if you want to ask me a question, you got to ask me in here.

He goes into the men's room and as he's standing at the urinal I told him all about your booklet have in a world

of love by Jonathan Edwards.

And then when he was finished, of course, I gave him the booklet and saying we would love to have this is when I was working part

-time for you, obviously and then I.

And I asked him we would or I said to him We would love if you would write a brief Commendation for this and then sure enough in

about three or four weeks in the mail came that commendation from dr. Sproul.

That's right.

And then also As his mind was beginning to slip at the end was when he mentioned you.

You're like intellect.

That's of course you have that prominently displayed everywhere in your website,.

I would be a fool not to.

Wouldn't I of course.

Most people don't know the condition.

He was in mentally.

No, I'm just kidding.

He it was a very gracious thing for him to say about your and and God obviously has

you're doing what you're doing certain

deal because of me but to use the gifts God has

given you and Amen, and clearly to be able to

and bring out of people sometimes, you know and you've had some cases where you've had

interviewers that you've been interviewing people that aren't very comfortable and and

you'd ask questions and they give one -word answers and.

And it would be very awkward most of the time you've been able to turn that

around and End up with a very positive experience with people especially people who are very

uncomfortable in the setting.

I know dr Walter Chantry is not somebody who is really comfortable with the setting that

and yet I know afterwards He was very Complimentary of you and and how you were

able to to bring him out by asking the right questions.

Leading questions that are not going to bring forth just yes or no answers.

And I found out by accident or by.

I guess the Calvinist doesn't believe in that I found out providentially without knowing beforehand is a

better way of phrasing it.

When I was searching the banner of truth website my interview with Walt Chantry is on their website the

audio link.

Oh, well, it's right underneath his book today's gospel authentic.

Those are the kinds of things that we should be doing encouraging one another.

You know, we're not we're not in competition.

Cooperatively working together.

And you know I've always viewed the other publishers reformed publishers that way and and I know

Reformation heritage as an example is one that the dr. Beeky in particular that has been incredibly

helpful to me and in untold ways.

And Endorsements he's written sometimes introductions or prefaces or forwards and and even at

times Dr. Beeky has helped me.

He felt was

the quality of work that he knows that I want to do.

And so at some point though, you are going to publish the life and legacy of Chris Ornson eventually, right?

Yeah, yeah, we're working on that.

I'm gonna wait until you're long gone before we publish.

We can't publish the the life and letters of Chris Ornson.

You have to start writing letters though Chris before we can do the life and letters of Chris Ornson.

I could I can't I can't help but remember a funny thing.

It was not intended to be funny.

A very well -known pastor and preacher and writer.

Wrote a little booklet and the way that the publisher printed the cover was quite comical to me.

Anyway, it had his name at the top and then right underneath that it said a bad record and a

bad heart.

I Did have a chance this past Sunday in the providence of God to do a

Sunday school class in the church that we're now becoming members of here in Florida and the Sunday school

class was on the incarnation of our Lord John 1 1 to 18 and

Christ during Christmas and That

thought the lesson that I brought this past Sunday Is

Not exclusively because I didn't focus as much on one of the aspects.

But the first thing that we need to understand who this

was Jesus.

He was a man

not any great to

understand that within that we believe in the full Humanity

he wasn't it.

He did not come in the form of man meaning that he

was.

The scriptures are very clear that he He had a human body.

He had human emotions.

He got hungry. He got tired.

He felt pain.

Many many different conceived in

the womb of the Virgin Mary did not have a human father.

He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, but he was born a

man and it's important because in the only way

that he had to be paid it had to be paid

for by a man and.

So the the emphasis in the New Testament in many many places is On the

humanity of holy man.

Paul as the one mediator between God and man the man

Christ Jesus.

Now, we understand that there are those and run with it and say well

you see Paul was saying he was just a man and The answer to that or the statement that you would respond to

that is no all this say he was just

Essential.

For us my man sin came into the world

and a song a heretical a very heretical song just popped into my head from Jesus

Christ.

Superstar if you might recall the the actress playing Mary Magdalene sang a song

I don't know how to love him and one of the refrains was he's a man.

He's just a man and that that is and that's where the problem

comes.

It's like this it's the same thing really and

people say well

the Bible was

written

they were not

just men who

were carried along by the Holy Spirit and these men spoke

from God and so we have the Dual nature as it

were scripture is God breathed.

But it is also

one word

is the

mediator.

They were

written by men and so you

have this dual Nature of nature of

Christ.

God is the Word of

God the fact

that Jesus Christ

is man.

Thank Paul's words in Romans chapter 8.

As he begins chapter 8 and and lays out the into man's

problem he begins.

There's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus for the law of the spirit of life.

Has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

For God has done what the law weakened by the flesh could not do.

By sending his own son doesn't

say he was

sent in the likeness of flesh.

Which is what they were

saying.

No, Paul says he was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh.

He was without sin holy harmless undefiled spotless

Lamb of God and So we have

less if he was to be sacrificed and he had to be a man in Order for him

to pay the sin and that's the reason why we emphasize that

first and foremost that Jesus Christ the Son of God was man.

But he was also

humanity of Christ and the deity of Christ is emphasized in the

shorter catechism is the Redeemer of God's

elect.

Right, that's a that's a one of the most important questions in the short

Lord Jesus Christ the eternal

so was

and he being the

eternal Son of

God became

man.

And that of course after one

and as I was looking at that

this past Sunday in our son, I Opened by reading a

section from BB Warfield.

He did a sermon on the pro

and this is Herman

John's gospel alone opens with him to the depths of eternal reality.

And tells us who and what that being actually was whose life history in the world is about to be depicted.

There's probably no more pregnant piece of writing in the world than this prologue of John's gospel and

There is no part of this pregnant prologue more pregnant.

There are just seven we can count only eight

deflated

here by a unique name and that a name

Lagos and.

Under this unique name, there are three declarations are calmly made of him.

So calmly as almost to betray us into taking them as mere matters of course each of

which separated separately considered is of tremendous import and the three together in

combination of more tremendous import still.

When we have read these three live in the beginning was

the word

Wow.

Amen.

In fact if you could pick up on those three things because I don't want to stop you mid -sentence I'd rather you start with the three things.

Sure.

Sure.

When we come back from our first break if anybody would like to join us.

Our email address is Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

If you have a question Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, don't go away.

We'll be right back with Mike Gadosh of solid ground Christian books and more of our discussion on the most important

things you need to know about Jesus this Christmas and always.

I Am Chris Ornson host

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Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

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Everyone needs a pastor.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Zarnes.

And if you just tuned us in on iron sharpens iron radio, our first guest today is Mike

Gadoche founder of solid ground Christian books.

We are in the middle of our discussion right now on the theme the most important things to know about

Jesus this Christmas and always.

And then coming up at the top of the hour the second hour John Sampson will be joining us a mutual friend

of both Mike Gadoche and myself.

And John Sampson is pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona.

He's also an author whom Mike Gadoche has published through solid ground Christian books.

And John Sampson is going to be speaking in the theme how a former heretic was transformed

theologically with the help of dr RC Sproul.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

And before the break pastor Mike you were Mentioning the three things

that were very important for us to remember about Christ.

You were about to bring them up right on the heels of quoting BB Warfield.

Yes work.

I've read these

three look means clear

and

in Trot

a

creature created by God.

And the amazing thing is that John what he was saying.

He gives us three declarations about the.

And the first he begins the

gospel.

With exactly the same phrase that's used in the beginning of Genesis.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth here.

We read.

In the beginning the word was.

That is he who is here described as the

word.

When you go all the way back to the beginning of time He was already there.

He didn't begin then.

He was already there he already was.

And the the Greek imperfect tense gives us that picture all going all the way back to the beginning

and then.

Second thing that said about him is even more remarkable than the first.

So he's eternal.

But secondly, it's

eternal intercommunion with God.

And I remember when I took Greek that this expression

crossed

the Apostle takes Phrase

one and he combines them.

He says he was in the beginning.

I think the eternality of this person this mysterious person who is not named yet.

He's called the word in this mysterious term that she is.

But then the third clause is the dramatic climax of this

opening verse and One of the things I like to do

it on for me.

And I'm gonna ask you the host to just read John out

of you or if you have like you to read it for me.

Can you do that?

Yes, I can.

Hold on one second.

Yeah.

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

She fell into the trouble that I had to do that I was gonna have all of my students in Sunday school do that

somebody to read it correctly.

Well, I'm reading it right from my sponsors version the New American Standard Bible, yeah, well, it's not it's not

it's.

It's not the emphasis

is the key.

Oh was and.

Yeah, most people put the word the emphasis on the last clause.

It should be God

the word.

It should be the

word God.

Real focus of the first clause of the

second clause is with God.

And the real focus of the third and.

And we know that because all these

are

different

I know I

just recently got

copies

of the

and

went over and.

They they wanted to rather than

and one of the things

that Murray emphasized in his preaching.

So you will know where he put the M

right now.

That's that's how we do it, but

they didn't use italics.

They didn't use bold.

They didn't use that's not how they emphasize things the way they would emphasize.

That's not the only way but often that way.

And the literal

reading

in the beginning.

The last clause actual literal and the

word was God.

In fact, I was transported back in time as you're speaking because I can clearly remember now.

Either during a sermon or a Bible study you bringing this up.

I can I can clearly remember it.

Yeah, that's that is so important to see that in this clause that

The focus is on the who was in the beginning and

in the beginning Was God and that's

where I would love to use as an

example one of my

favorite past

incarnation Celebrate

Christ Jesus came into the world.

That's supposed to be sinners to save correct.

Exactly.

The emphasis here in the original language is In

Christ

Jesus and

as I said, he didn't

come for the right so many words.

He said a ton of man did not come and I

think that it's this upon this one who came

he came in the beautiful thing about

he became a man and so was and

Continues there's in one person.

Yeah, we there's a man at the

right hand of God I know and he will always be as

we read which

we read on in verse 14, of course the word

flesh.

The word was and that's the language of

the catechism.

It is so important for us to realize that Jesus Christ is fully God and all the

fullness Paul said of the Godhead dwells.

That's a

beautiful

state.

The 18 verses that make up the prologue really give us

the summary of Everything that he is going to speak about in the rest of the gospel.

It's a summary of the rest of the gospel and In the prologue, of course

is 18 verses it introduces the themes that John's going to cover and Do you

remember how the gospel of John closes?

Because John's gospel is unique in that it has both the prologue and an epilogue.

Which is after the actual 21

is actually almost like an appendix.

It's it's the epilogue that's at the grand conclusion.

Really the glorious conclusion to 20 and

you remember on begins his

gospel by focusing on the deity of Christ.

By referring to him as God in verse 1.

What are the last words that are by the?

My Lord and my God, that's it my Lord and my my God.

Which that which the Jehovah's Witnesses relegate to taking the Lord's name in vain, basically.

Well, yeah, well, no, I think what what they will probably say is that My Lord is

referring to Jesus and my God is the

way John told

the on

the deity of Christ.

That is my Lord for a

moment.

Thomas when we when we think about Thomas.

What what is the term that is usually added to his name doubting?

Doubting Thomas and I've been in the I've tried to recover.

The Bible never

called the

very last is the first time that

any of the disciples Referred to Jesus as God.

It's Thomas.

And Thomas is the one who is he

doubted for a week?

He had doubts for one week and the question is do we want to be defined?

Is it appropriate to define a brother in Christ by the worst week of his life?

By the worst thing that he ever did.

What what would your nickname be.

You think about your own life and you think about your history and think about the you know.

The things that you're most ashamed of in your past.

Would you want to be defined by the worst moment of your life?

Of course always moment of your life and nobody would and is it even fair to do that?

The person has lived their whole life.

Thomas ended up giving his life.

To take

a man's name and to have it almost jokingly be referred to anything

that would you know?

When when we when we label on them

because of a failure in their past.

We've all done that.

We've all we've all been guilty

defining

moment of their life.

And so I think that you know looking at the way that John structured his gospel.

Ending with and when I say he ended I I mean, I know those were not the last words of John chapter 20.

We have Jesus response to Thomas and then we have the concluding words.

Other many other signs Jesus did that are not so that you might believe that Jesus is

the Christ and believing him out of life.

In his name and that's really how the gospel ends.

And then there's the appendix that's added in chapter 21.

Important.

It's just that John clearly the body the main body of his work is

concluded in chapter 20.

But you know, it's beautiful as well.

You know

how

John

the only

begotten

God who is in the who is in the bosom of the father.

He now many translations.

Technically, they're both

true.

He is the only begotten son and he is the only begotten God.

Which is the proof is

he the only

and I

believe that John begins

in God

at any time

father.

He has explained him, you know, John also uses that same exact expression.

One other time and can't think of it off the top of my head no one has

seen God at any time he uses that exact phrase one more time

and He begins of course in John 118.

No one has seen God explained or he

has exegeted

Unseen God the God how do we know God and

what did

Jesus say to him so long with you?

And you've not known me if you have seen me you have what?

You've seen the father right.

Amen, if you've seen me you've seen the

funny time the only begotten God who's in the bosom of the father.

He has explained him in 1st John 4.

John does something quite remarkable quite beautiful and it's often missed.

He begins with exactly instead of then saying

about Jesus if we love and

I

believe what John wants us

he revealed is

no longer on forming

miracles and Teaching

and if we love one another

unseen God seen in the

visible love.

Which God's people show for another?

Amen in any way

this we love

one another you

remember

what Jesus

said in

John that

you love one another.

And love one another right?

The deity of Christ who

had to be both in order to be our Savior and.

So as we celebrate great opportunity for us

the seen Unrepresentative of the on

as we love one another.

His love is perfected in us and God abides in us.

Amen.

Well, I'd like you to conclude in an abbreviated sense because I know you have to leave early.

But if you could conclude with a summary of why it was necessary for God to be

both Or for Jesus I should say to be both God and man fully God and

fully man.

Why did could he not just declare? his elect righteous from

the right hand of the Father in heaven without any need of

Humiliating himself by becoming incarnate and suffering on the cross and so on why did he need to

be a man?

Well the fact is Because

in it and

to see

who was the

blood

must pay.

We not only

need to

have our sins forgiven But we need

to have

and that's why Christ being holy

harmless.

He had to be a man and

So he is able to forgive us our sin.

He is able to give us his one of the

bumpers he

put the

emphasis on

Minimizes the given right.

But the reality is we're not just we are also given the righteousness of

Christ.

We know so he's taken out the heart of he has also given us his

spirit Predestined.

The great exchange as they call it.

Exactly.

Well, I you know that your website is solid -ground -books .com.

Solid -ground -books .com did you also want to offer?

Right now I'm in the midst of trying to get my website back and my

web guy has said

you've been trying

to be

twice.

A year at the most for a very long.

I've encouraged people that if

Two zero five five eight seven four four eight zero.

And I can take.

Well,

I truly thank God.

That providentially the first Bible -believing Protestant Church that

I became a member of was the one where you were serving as an under shepherd that the Lord used you to nurture

me in the faith and to not only that but to introduce to me so many great giants

of Christian history and also Contemporary giants like dr. Sproul who entered

into eternity last week, and I thank you.

I can never thank you enough For all of that and for your friendship most of all brother.

Well, thank you Chris.

I'll look forward to seeing you at g3 in just about a month.

That's right, man.

Make sure you're letting your people know about that.

And I'll be I'll be there with my books only on Wednesday night at the At the debate.

James White will be debating again this year on Wednesday evening, and I will be there with books.

I should have all of his books there and I'll only be there to be

leaving first where dr. Beeky will be the featured speaker in Mississippi

in Laurel, Mississippi.

That Thursday great.

Well, I'm looking forward to seeing you on The 17th brother and I look forward to many more opportunities to

interview you.

God bless.

Thank you Chris.

I love you, brother.

Love you, too, and I'll see you later.

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Remember that the g3 conference is coming up that stands for grace gospel and glory from

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That's also the email address where you could send a question to my guest John Sampson who is pastor of

Kings Church Peoria, Arizona.

He's an author having titles published with solid ground Christian books and he is going

to be discussing now for the remainder of our program a Tribute to RC Sproul how a former heretic was

transformed theologically with the help of dr RC Sproul and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back my dear friend

John Sampson to iron sharpens iron radio.

It's great to be with you Chris.

Thanks for having me on and if anybody would like to join us.

Our email address again is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Well very briefly for those of our listeners who are new listeners who haven't heard you yet and not sure who

you are.

Why don't you tell our listeners about Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona?

Yeah, we would describe ourselves as a reformed Baptist Church here in town and

greater Phoenix area and really just moved into a

facility and exactly a senior living facility in

the meeting itself.

We just meet there and have a Sunday school and the main worship service on a Sunday and

excited about What has happened and what?

We're going into in the new year and.

Amen.

And for those of you who want to find out more about Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona

Just go to Kings Church AZ comm Kings Church AZ Comm.

And of course, there's no apostrophe in a URL.

So it's just Kings Church AZ comm without the apostrophe.

Well, the only thing I can say to you brother about The title there's only one

word I disagree with in the title about how a former heretic was transformed Theologically with the help of dr. R. C.

Sproul is the word former.

I'm only kidding because obviously without the word former the rest of it doesn't make sense.

Because Dr. Sproul's ministry and preaching and teaching and writing did help

transform your theology.

And For our listeners who don't know this because you haven't said it yet Later on when this live show

is over if you want to look up John Samson's previous interviews, especially his testimony

Go to iron trip and Zion radio .com and go to the past programs

podcast Archive in the top right corner and just type in the search engine sam

son for John's last name Sanson.

And You will find out that he is a former word -of -faith teacher

Preacher pastor and talk -show host TV talk -show host and the Lord

providentially brought Theologically sound people into his life through their preaching teaching and

writing and one of them was dr. R. C. Sproul.

Tell us about how you first Learned about our dear brother who just went home to be with the Lord last Thursday.

Well, I've been introduced to his ministry through a teaching series that really was I found out

later.

It was one of the big ones of his entire ministry the holiness of God.

I was greatly impacted by that and I look back and think I I saw it I watched

it.

I was impacted but I didn't really sing.

I didn't trace out all of the implications of what I saw and heard and

was still in that movement and I look back and wonder if I was a genuine Christian at all

because I I Did believe in the Trinity did believe in the cross of Christ as I understand

it now taught Repentance as well as faith and that was kind of unusual in that setting.

I Saw there was the ability to soundness of

doctrine even though I look back and just I'm aghast at what I did believe as well.

I was huge errors.

Huge overemphasis on many different things.

I didn't believe some of the craziness that is Associated with some parts of it.

But I was certainly not someone who I would now invite into my own church to preach and

what happened was Dr. Sproul through Ligonier Ministries was having a conference in Scottsdale,

Arizona which was not too far from me and I I was really wanting to hear him because I had been impacted by the

holiness of God teaching but my heart sank.

When I saw what he's going to be coming from Florida to talk about and that was chosen by God.

Predestination and it was the year 2000 and I was thinking why would a man of that caliber because I

certainly did respect him.

Why would he be flying from Florida to Arizona?

To talk about something that haven't we got over as the church.

This was something that was emphasized centuries before He's coming to speak on this I thought there's

so many more important things to talk about.

Then predestination and all of this and I was in two minds as to whether or not I would go

because of that.

And you did go.

Thanks be to God providentially.

Yes, I did and and I was more than prepared for it to be a short

Stay in the meeting because the moment he would get into just quoting the theologians of the past The

Luther's the Calvins and the Jonathan Edwards, I thought you know, I unless you can show me this in the Bible I'm

really not interested.

And so I sat on the back row expecting to be leaving after about 25 minutes if that was the

direction the discussion went in it never did he just opened up his Bible and started

teaching and I was If you could put a camera on me at that time You'd have seen me kind of

white because I was not enjoying this experience because he was quoting the scriptures that the scriptures I

knew but he was showing me through his teaching that he was taking them in context and I

wasn't I was a pastor.

I've been trained in ministry many of my Teachers at the Bible

Seminary I went to in England were reformed.

I look back and see the hand of God in that so I did have a certain respect for these people that's I just thought they would

greatly doctrine rather than what the Bible

actually taught and I Was I was really not enjoying the experience because I was saying that he

was doing something that I didn't expect him to do taking the scripture in that context and showing

me that I wasn't and then What really intrigued me?

This was a Friday night and then a Saturday teaching he was doing.

He was inviting people to come back if they had any questions, and I thought well, that's good of him.

His his house of cards is going to be shown to be exactly that in the morning when we have this

question -and -answer Session and I thought I'm going to go and see see him fall apart when the big questions are

asked.

And that's not what happened.

Of course he fielded these questions in his jovial way, but

was militant and just going to the text of the scripture and Saying

what the text said in its context and he was quoting verses like John 3 16 and I thought

What can he tell me?

I'm a pastor about 300 people in our church and I thought I had a sound

understanding of the scripture and What was happening was he was showing me that I didn't even understand the

verse I could quote in my sleep.

Because I could quote it I thought I didn't need to study it and he was just exposing as

time went on more and more and more of my error and What

happened Chris was it just sparked this determination in me?

I want to know the truth and I I didn't leave that two -day conference convinced that he was

right.

But it sure shook me up To the point where I said to myself self

you need to study this and so I ordered everything I could that Ligonier had available and I didn't

talk to anyone about it.

Just Shut myself up with the Lord in that sense of I need to study this out

and for six or eight nine months I was doing exactly that I was teaching other things at the time

but in my spare time going over this material from dr. Sproul and Over

that period of time.

I came to realize he was right.

I was wrong and that's hard when you're a pastor and you've not only believed other things but you've taught

other things and over that period I came to see the reformed

teaching that he was exposing was in fact true and I became

a convinced reformed man through became involved

in my Understanding but certainly it was dr. Sproul who was the initiator in really

changing my entire life and ministry to the point where I Felt

really the loss of dr. Sproul, even though I am matrimony a few times personally.

I felt him his loss to us very deeply as if.

Amen, and in fact what you're telling me Reminded me

of a friend of mine who is Not only a Christian attorney,

but an elder in us and in assemblies of God congregation He was never to my knowledge

Quite in the extreme in an extreme group that was Severely heretical as

the word of faith movement but an Armenian Pentecostal

and he remains a Pentecostal but back in I think it was

2007 it might have been before that but for Christmas I

Handed him a book and he said to me.

Oh, are you kidding me more?

Propaganda you and your Calvinist propaganda.

You're always pushing it on me.

I gave him a copy of what was then called grace unknown by RC

Sproul.

It's now renamed What is reformed theology?

Yeah, and I Just it slipped my mind after I gave it to him.

I wasn't really thinking about it Much and then I get a call on

In the early afternoon of New Year's Day and It was him my friend and he

said Chris.

I haven't been asleep and practically two days now I can't but I couldn't put this book down that you gave me.

I believe every word now.

I'm reformed So quite a Remarkable

Gift remarkably gifted man Dr. Sproul was and he is obviously

sorely missed and will be for quite a long time and Just I thank

God that I had the opportunity not only to interview him but also to receive a glowing

Commendation from him after the interview that is now posted on and has been posted on

my facebook masthead for some Years now ever since I had a Facebook page and also on my iron trip and Zion

radio website, but you also Received a commendation from him that I

want you to read when we return from our break I want you to read it to our audience one of the reasons

why This is pretty remarkable.

Not that our guest John Sampson's book does not deserve accolades

from someone as Notable as dr. Sproul, but RC Sproul did not

hand out Commendations and endorsements very

easily.

He was very reserved in particular in the way that he did that and the number of times he did that

which is one of the reasons I am still dancing a jig every time I look at his Endorsement.

Yeah that he gave to me that he wrote for me because I was not a I was not expecting one From him

knowing that he did not very frequently endorse things unless close friends of his

had written something.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people even some who are reformed.

Whose names pop up endorsing things and you're scratching your head what on earth did this person endorse that for

I mean pretty soon you're gonna see some of these people's endorsements on a new edition of mine

comp but It's just like bizarre sometimes but but RC was not like that at all

he was Very particular and when we come back from the break.

I want you to read that that Endorsement that he wrote, but we're going to our

final break right now.

If anybody wants to join us.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a RN z en and gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing.

We'll be right back with John Sampson and how this former heretic had his

theology transformed by dr. RC Sproul.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris orange and if you just tuned us in our guests today.

For the last hour of the program with about 25 minutes to go is Pastor John Sampson

of Kings Church, Peoria, Arizona.

We are discussing how a former heretic was transformed theologically with the help of dr. RC Sproul and

Doctor or should I say pastor John Sampson Was a word -of -faith Pentecostal

Pastor and TV talk show host and then God providentially brought men into his life

like dr Sproul who's preaching and teaching and writing helped to transform his thinking.

And one of the last things that our guest has written

pastor John Sampson is a book on the five solos of the Reformation and

remarkably providentially before our Dear beloved

mentor in the faith RC Sproul Departed this earth and entered into glory with

Christ the Lord providentially put this booklet in the hands of

dr. Sproul and the result was quite a blessing for our guest.

And first of all Tell us a little bit about this booklet that you wrote for the anniversary the

500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

But it was many Terrific books out there on the subject.

I found that when I handed some of them out to people People were intimidated with the size of them.

Some of them are to me just wonderful tomes on this

Bible will not read a book of 200 or more pages and I thought isn't there something out there that is

Just small enough that someone could read in about an hour.

That would cover the main issues of the Reformation.

The solos and really put in in a way that people can grasp.

And I was looking and I didn't really see anything so I started writing and Put

it together and that's what it is.

It's about 30 31 pages and it's like a long tract, but I was able to I think to

succinctly say and What I wanted to say in in that book and so it's

a short book and it's deliberately short.

You can read it in less than an hour.

So you sent this booklet to dr. Sproul not long ago and

How long ago approximately was this?

The book came out in June and a couple of weeks after it came out I sent it to him and

I just put a note with it saying you may never get time to read this.

But you had such an impact in my life and there's testimony to that in the book here.

But thank God for your ministry.

Then two weeks later. I've actually I made the the short walk from my

office to my My wall near the kitchen and there my wife has

made this into a framed Thing on my wall of dr. Sproul's reply.

He wrote personally to me and do you want me to just read what he said?

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Okay.

Then you got a restraining order after that.

One.

Of the things I loved about Dr. Sproul was he was engaging and had a wonderful sense of

humor and that came out So often and he wrote this did John.

Standing together alone and your note tracing

your journey of faith.

Finally landing at the biblical truth as expressed in the reformed faith.

It is an honor to be included in the dedication of your book along with James White.

You have succinctly and clearly Distilled the essence of the solace.

May God mightily use your book to his glory.

Thank you for the encouragement in the gospel.

You've brought to me.

Wow, that is just so powerful and I hope I'm sure I'm confident that Solid ground Christian

books now in the new the newer editions of that booklet have that printed on the booklet.

I'm not sure of that, but that's certainly a definite possibility.

I'm sure that Mike Gadosz at Solid Grand Christian Books will do that when the new run when the new

printing run Comes about.

That would be insanity if he didn't put that on there.

Dr. Sproul is so gracious.

I remember back in 2003, this was you know, two and a half years

after I first encountered

Dr. Sproul and I thought what can I do to say?

Thank you.

He I'm sure he gets a lot of negative Writing, you know people writing to him, but maybe

some people writing to him and saying something positive.

But what can I what can I do to bless him?

I thought I know what I can do.

I'll write a little note in a card and I'll save up.

I was able to do this.

Put a hundred dollar bill in the card and just take

Vesta out one night and just Just understand you've impacted a life and a ministry

many times over but I'm one of them and please just Enjoy a night out with with Vesta

and I just said John Sampson and the name of the church.

I didn't put any address.

You know what happened what two weeks later?

I got another letter from him and it said obviously what had happened was he he

Told someone to track me down and Was able to track me down on the church and the address.

I've never put an address on there and Send me a letter saying thank you so much.

It was great to hear that Testament how God had used Ligonier ministries in your life.

He didn't even say his own name Ligonier ministries.

And then he said I was able to take best route to a wonderful French Restaurant.

We had a beautiful meal and we were delighted to do that.

God had impacted your life through Ligonier.

Man well, I didn't even know that story.

That was that's something new.

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know if I don't know if you.

Saw the debate that I arranged for dr. James R. White years ago, and I can't remember

which one it was but during the introductions as I usually do I had a little stand

-up comedy routine and James White's among James White's many books

are.

Or is the book that he wrote is the Mormon my brother and I.

And I said that Dr. White had actually written a biography about me called.

Is that moron my brother?

And I and I when I was reading the accolades for the book for the book on the back cover.

One of them was.

And a prison inmate writes.

Thank you so much.

For is that moron my brother.

The pages are so soft and absorbent.

Anyway, I digress that has nothing to do with our topic.

But.

You.

And I have to repeat to our listeners.

You have to look up on iron sharpens iron radio pastor John Sampson's testimony

because People might not realize the magnitude of the transformation

that took place in your life as a result of the teaching of folks Like R .C. Sproul.

And it seems from what you said R .C. Sproul's teaching seemed to be as far as

reformed theology goes the very first hammer blow on to your very deeply

heretical beliefs.

Yeah, what happened was he impacted me more than anyone and Other people became

involved.

James White was one of them.

I read some of James Montgomery Boyce at the time I remember some of his material really impacted me,

but really when I began to see that God was sovereign that's almost the anathema statement

in the word -of -faith movement and When you see that he's sovereign first of all, I thought well, yeah, he's

he's sovereign in salvation.

Okay, I concede that and If I can look back now, I would say it's like this

huge rock of God's sovereignty was thrown in my Theological

lake if you like and I thought well, okay, I see that there's there's this stone and I didn't realize the ripple

effects.

Oh my goodness.

He's sovereign here as well.

And he's sovereign there and he's sovereign in the church and he's sovereign over all things

and it became this Dramatic

so much of my really thinking and

It was that stone of God's sovereignty and I realized this this God is one who plays for keeps who gets his

will done Every time and that again is an anathema in what I was involved in it.

It was.

The idea is God's trying all he can and there's certain laws in the universe and one of them is the power of your

words and if you can align yourself with what God says, then things can happen miracles can happen

and all of that fell by the wayside when I understood this God is

Sovereign and he heals people who didn't even know who Jesus was and remember that

the blind man.

He didn't even know that Jesus was the Son of God.

He just received healing from God and and Again, you look at your Bible and I realized I

thought I was a word but in that environment

I have to concede I was a fake

ignored complete explain away but now I can sit with my Bible and

read all of it and believe all of it and in Context see that all the

New Testament is the one who rules and reigns.

Something and every will he has comes to pass every decreed

Statement from eternity that he will say this one shall be mine.

That one shall be mine.

This shall happen.

That shall happen.

Isaiah 46 is just one of the passages that says says this is the God of the Bible and I realized

King statement I was not understanding who God was to any degree at

all and that and heresy is put on that and and I look back and just

with my now reformed thinking this is amazing.

God can save and rescue people not only from a life of Drugs and

sex and pornography and some of the great testaments we hear but deception to

the point where you're a pastor in the movement.

You're you're having meals with people that I now think gosh.

He was in my home He'd be ministry now and he stayed in my

house mate I and I and I think God you are so gracious because so many of the people I talk to

and Former pastors will not even allow me to say come can we go to the scriptures and talk about

this?

They think they have the truth and they're not open.

The fact that I was open is evidence of God's mercy and his power to

reveal himself not my wits not my Intellectual ability my intellectual

ability had led me into deception, but God brought me out and that is what before

now.

One of the core Teachings of Christianity as even Mike Gadosh pointed out in the first

hour and as you are fully aware is the humanity of Jesus

Christ that God became man in the flesh in the person of Jesus Christ and

He was fully Man in addition to being fully God, but as you are also

aware The word of faith movement takes this to an extremely

Disturbing and heretical and dare I say blasphemous level where they the

God the Father is Even portrayed in their teaching

as much more like us Than the Bible teaches and that we

are much more like him than the Bible teaches.

This is this is really at the root of some of the the deepest and darkest and

most Frightening and horrifying Teachings of the word of faith movement, is it not?

You're absolutely right.

I could talk for a lot of time about that and You talk of some of the

people in the movement saying what they said and back then I shuddered.

Some of the things that were said the only reason I was able to stay in was there was not some headquarters.

That says you have to believe what brother big shot says or sister satellite says.

You know Kennedy and Kenneth Copeland have made some very very horrendously heretical

statements about God describing God as someone is about five foot ten and

Having a hand span just like his and and so it goes on got very much

akin to Mormonism.

The idea of yeah, this very very small God is a lot like us and.

Or even or even or even Greek and Roman Idolatry and

pagan.

Yeah.

Yeah, very very true.

And When you get the bigness of God, right?

If you get God wrong doesn't matter what else you get, right.

And I often portray the idea of buttoning a shirt if you get the wrong button

in the wrong hole at the top.

It's going to be wrong all the way down.

You've got to understand who this God is and I think as I look back on dr Sproul's ministry

emphasized the fact that though in many different Christian realms and

the whole spectrum of Christianity There's nothing distinct about the reformed view of God and yet if

he was to be pressed What is the distinction about it's the view of God.

And he went on to say that sounds like a contradiction.

But it's simply this when we write out our Theology and we say on page one

that God is holy and majestic and sovereign over all things we don't forget that when we come

to page 18 and talk about other issues like eschatology in the end times

and his rule in creation and Salvation and and all of these things and and I think

dr. Sproul more than anyone in my life really Taught me rightly about

God and Now he sees him face to face.

He sees the Lord Jesus and and his his journey on earth is over.

And he's gone to his reward, but he's left an amazing legacy, and I'm just one of many thousands It's

been impacted and I'm so glad that I was one of the blessings of what I

read to you about dr Sproul's in Endorsement with the line that he says, thank you.

He told to me.

Thank you for the encouragement You brought to him to me and I'm thinking That is so

amazing that I could encourage this mighty man of God somehow.

That's something I've said something I've written as blessed this man has impacted my life so dramatically.

Yeah, I felt the same way when I was interviewing him and that's the way he basically signed off.

Instead of saying and then there would be nothing wrong with just saying You're welcome.

When I thanked him for being on he said, thank you Chris.

Thank you Chris having me on the program.

Yeah.

Yeah, and with a sincerity that was palpable.

One thing that maybe I don't think I've said as well was I think around 2003 I'm

remember right?

I got a letter from Ligonier saying If you're a pastor come out for our first ever pastors

conference in Sanford, Florida where their ministries based and they said just get yourself here and

I thought you know what?

He's making himself and available.

I'd love to just go and sit under his ministry for for that time.

Well, I did.

I ended up Flying out there for this conference.

We weren't told too much about how things would work and we were told we might have to share a room with another man.

You know know the pastor keep the cost down when I got there.

Here's what here's the announcement.

Every one of these pastors there was a room and

he said that Ligonier some some years

ago.

And they gracefully have made funds available.

So that you each have your own room for five days all your board all your meals are paid

for for the five days.

Just sit back.

You might have thought you have to come up with money for food we're paying for that and Each

of you are now receiving a two hundred dollar gift certificate for anything you need at Ligonier.

We're here for you.

You guys are on the front lines.

I've had this in my heart to do for years.

We're finally doing it.

We want to bless you.

You're on the front line so many are leaving the ministry and we just want to pour our hearts into you.

And I've got two other guys who are going to be here teaching.

What we feel are the most important things you need to know as pastors to encourage you.

So that you can order your church right according to biblical parameters.

That's just the guy he is and and that sort of thing is going to come out more and more as we hear Of the

legacy of RC Sproul.

He loved Pete and he was.

I left there just shaking my hat in my head thinking I never saw any of that in my former

Association with the Word of Faith.

It was all about what can we get and his was a giving ministry?

Yeah, the entire Word of Faith movement appears to be very largely

based upon greed and Ego -maniacal narcissism

and it's just it's really disturbing when you hear so

many of the sermons that Come from the pulpits of these men and

women Where you never hear the gospel.

You and I'm not.

I'm not saying that that is that you never ever ever hear the gospel in their pulpits.

But on what I'm saying is when if you listen to them Even very frequently you

will likely not hear the gospel.

And and.

Right.

And.

A.

Rodney Howard Brown, I saw him twice.

The only reason I saw him is because two people that I know wanted to see in here with their own ears

so that I could warn others without relying on hearsay and.

And the man never brought up a call to repentance from sin.

He never brought up the the great exchange of Of

our sins being imputed to Christ and Christ's righteousness being imputed to us on Calvary.

They never or he never brought up the vital aspects of the faith.

It was all about their bizarre and unbiblical and weird experience

that they were Trying to lull there or he was trying to lull his

listeners Into accepting like opening themselves up to a demonic experience, of

course, of course, he would never have identified It that way, but that's what I believe it is.

That actually brings me to something.

How much of this do you think is is just charlatanry and

Hoaxterism if that's even a word or Huckster ism or whatever you want to call it and how much is it

is Actual demonic activity do you think I mean you.

I know you're not omniscient but in your opinion from being around it so often.

It's hard to judge people's hearts.

I think there are some people who think through the phrase genuinely deceive.

In other words, they actually believe.

I think there are people like that.

I think there are definite charlatans, you know, they are just fleecing the sheep.

One of the things I see Clearly in second Timothy now is that

going from bad to worse?

Deceiving and being deceived and so they deceive themselves and that's why they can look in the

camera and think I can take the last ten bucks of the grandma because I Believe

these laws will work and there are people out of it.

It is is second Timothy for the next chapter, which says that people will in the last days Keep up

for themselves teachers.

And so it's not just the man behind the microphone that's at fault the people want

that man to say what he's saying because they want What he's selling in

that sense.

And so rather than thinking that all these people in the crowd of victims They're just as much

guilty wanting they

want To be able to give their hundred dollars and get 100 ,000 in

return and you hear the one testimony where something like that happened.

You don't hear it for the people that are Moving out of their house because they gave their last money

to and that's not something that gets you know What what really bugs me is when you

see someone?

Talking about a little boy a little girl.

It plays on the emotions who had just maybe a year to live and they were healed by the Lord I I

don't doubt that God is so merciful that those things happen.

I've seen them happen in my own life and ministry, but you don't see the supposed man of

God showing up for a photo opportunity when there's the funeral and I look back and I

see the hand of God in in raising people who were you think it's all over they're gonna die and God was

absolutely merciful but there's also the 28 other little girls and boys who

well you have to have the funeral and There the word of faith can only bring people into bondage.

You didn't do enough.

You didn't work the laws enough.

You didn't confess God's Word enough and it's the most horrendous hellish demonic

bondage imaginable and they've got to live the rest of their life saying I let Satan

win over my boy over my daughter and It's it's horrendous.

Now.

I look back and I think I I prepared people only for healing but not for

the sovereignty of God where he actually takes someone home to be with him and so

To answer your question.

I think there's always a mixture of both and Satan works through the desires of people and

the person centered motivations and

The demonic can work through that but there's also people who are just Thinking that this is what the Bible says

because they've heard nothing else.

They've been exposed to nothing else and in that environment Listening to something else

is an anathema because it sounds like unbelief to them to say that God is sovereign

Amen, so it's a My answer is a real mixture and Satan will work

people who know they are just fooling

people.

And we're out of time brother and I know that your website for Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona

is Kings Church az .com.

K -i -n -g -s -c -h -u -r -c -h -a -z.

For Arizona comm and also let's not forget the website for Ligonier ministries the ministry funded by

the late. Dr R. C. Sproul is Ligonier org.

L -i -g -o -n -i -e -r.

Thank you so much John Sampson for being on the program today, I want to thank everybody who listened today.

I hope you all have a blessed Christmas.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a

sinner.