Conference Speaker Interviews (Shadow to Substance Conference)

The Day of Atonement as a Shadow of Christ

At the From Shadow to Substance Conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee. We just finished the first of our many sermons that we're going to be listening to from this conference. And I have my brother in Christ here who just preached a sermon on the subject of Leviticus 16 and seeing Christ in the day of atonement.

Brother, thank you for sitting down with me. Now, if you would tell our audience your name and the church that you're from.

Yeah, so my name is Greg Moring Jr. And I am currently a member at First Baptist Church of Coleman in Coleman, Florida. So, you know, you and I are not too terribly far removed from one another. But that's where my wife and I, we're members and where we take our children to hear the preaching of the word and learn to love the church and the Lord.

Amen.

And you're with Pastor Travis Van Meter. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. He actually won our book last week. That's hilarious. Yeah, because we did a...

I said, and he ended up getting, when I went on Iron Sharpens Iron, he ended up getting a free Bible. So he was racking it in last week. Well, good deal.

You were on Iron Sharpens Iron? I was. Yeah, Chris and I have been friends for years. Yeah, I've been on his show several times and love him very much. Great brother in the Lord. Well, I wanna first of all say it was a wonderful message.

And if anybody's out there and you have the opportunity to download the messages from this week, I wanna recommend definitely download this last one. You gave some great insights. In fact, I'm gonna ask you for a couple of quotes from your notes.

I know you probably don't know them off the top of your head, but I wanted to put them out on Twitter. The one that specifically I really liked, and I don't know if you were quoting someone else or if it was from you directly, where you talked about the shadow of the cross, the day of atonement was in the shadow of the cross.

And I forget exactly how it was worded. We'll have to pull up the note and we can do that later. But yeah, we'll find it. Cause I'd love to tweet that. I think it was a great point and that you were making.

Yeah, I think it said something around the lines of how that it's something to the effect that, you know, like every great shadow, you know, it points back to the feet of, you know, what's casting the shadow.

That's what it was. You know, and that here you have The greater thing cast the shadow. Yeah, and that here you have that the day of atonement is that shadow that leads us to the feet of Golgotha's hill or something like that.

Yeah. I'd have to actually look at the notes cause it's written out. That I do know was actually,.

That wasn't an off the cuff thing. So that one I can actually get you. Awesome. That wasn't a rabbit that I chased. I actually wrote that one down. Well, like I said, I was really encouraged by the message.

I'm thankful. I will tell you all you guys with you glorious beards and wonderful suits are making me feel very underdressed and very underbearded.

I sometimes let mine grow or I kind of let it go this way. You know, to make up for those brothers who aren't able to grow it. So I like, I bear the weight of other's beards.

Did you ever see the, it was a docu-series on the Branch Davidians? No. Okay, just because what you just said reminded me of something. And I don't know if I'm gonna, I don't know if I'll put this in the final interview, but apparently David Koresh told all the men in the thing that they weren't allowed to have sex, that he would bear the burden of sex for all of them.

So your bearing of the burden of the beard made me think of, this tells you what kind of weird sense of mind that you're talking to.

Well, I probably can match that. Well, brother, thank you for sitting down with me. I appreciate it. And I appreciate the word. It was a great way to get us started. Yeah, thank you. And was very encouraged by it.

Look forward to sharing it with other folks. Yeah, amen. Lord bless you. God bless you.

There, you're nice and pretty. Sounds good. I'm never pretty. So it's okay. But I try to make my guests pretty. Yeah, I appreciate it. I'm Kevin. Kevin, if you would, just to start us out, tell us about who you are and where you're from and how you got involved with the conference.

The Light of the World in the Gospel of John

Yeah, great. So my name is Kevin Hay and married to my lovely wife, Alicia, for 16 years. And we're from Ohio. I heard you guys have a lot of kids. We do, we do, relatively speaking. But yeah, we've got eight with our eighth being born this coming April.

That's awesome. Praise the Lord for that. Five girls and three boys. And yeah, so been pastoring now for about a decade. Had the privilege to pastor churches in Ohio and Indiana, West Virginia more recently.

And so yeah, God's been good. And just excited to sing his praises and preach his word every opportunity I get. For this conference, actually had a mutual friend with Jeff Rice and Brandon Scalf, great brother.

Just recently planted a church in Oklahoma actually called Heritage. And he wasn't able to be here after all that was said and done. But he kind of connected me with Jeff. And I had had the opportunity to preach at the cessationist conference at Jim Osman's church, Kootenai, there in Idaho.

And had the opportunity to meet Andrew Rapoport and some of those guys. Oh, nice. So you know some of the guys. Yeah, a few of them, yeah.

Well, let me ask you this. I listened to the message, it was great. And I do wanna mention, I mentioned this on each one, that all of these should be available online, right? They're gonna be putting these messages out online.

I think so. I think they're recording them and then they're gonna put them out later if I understand correctly. Well, I'll be able to link into that. And I also took a little bit of video view with my phone or with my camera while we're going.

Just so that I could slide some of that in here. But as a pastor, I know a lot of times our goal is before we preach is to be able to sum up the message in a sentence or two, to be able to say, this is the thesis, this is what I wanted to get out of, or this is what I want the people to understand from this text.

And you were, today you were preaching from the Gospel of John. And if you were gonna say to someone, if you and I were talking, and I said, well, give me your message in a sentence or two, what would you say was what your focus was today?

Yeah, so I would say that God has promised that He is going to send salvation to the nations through His servant. And Jesus was the fulfillment of that light that comes to the world, obviously through His death, burial, and resurrection.

And that was your text. You just said, I am the light of the world. I am the light of the world. Amen. And I just made the connections there to Isaiah, where God is specifically saying that He's bringing a light to the nations.

And so as Jesus stands up in the midst of the Feast of Tabernacles, that that's what He's declaring, is He's the fulfillment of that promise. Amen. Yeah, really cool. Anybody ever tell you you look like Leonardo DiCaprio?

No, I don't think I've ever gotten that way.

Well, there you go. Okay, I appreciate that. All right, brother, thank you for being on the show. Thank you, Keith. Appreciate it, God bless you. This is a special day for me, everyone, because I'm sitting next to a man who I have loved for a while, but have never talked to in person before yesterday, the beautiful, the wonderful, the glorious, and apparently semi-Catholic, Claude Ramsey, the happy Calvinist.

David as a Type of Christ and the Promise of an Eternal King

I wanna just say, I love the collar, and I love the fact that Reformed Baptist beards hide the collar, so it's like a secret. I was watching you preach, and every time you moved your head, I would see the collar just a little bit, and I said, is that a collar?

Or is he wearing like a white T-shirt under the thing? And then you'd move again. I said, no, that's a square, man. That ain't even a, that is, and then I was like, well, is it a turtleneck? Because you wouldn't know.

So yes, it is. He is wearing the collar, and apparently Jeffrey Rice, who is the host of this event, has a podcast about why Reformed Baptists should wear the collar. So if anybody's interested, oh, sorry, I hit the wrong button there.

If anybody's interested, go check that out. Go check out, Claude, how you doing, brother? Doing good, man. I wanna tell you, we have heard three sermons today, but you got up and preached. That was great.

I mean Those men preached the gospel. No, no, no, no, no, I agree. Everything we've heard today has been spot on. It's been great. But brother, you was preaching. I will say this, though. I don't get to watch you preach a lot, unfortunately, just because of time, but you are very passionate.

Praise the Lord. And I mean that in a positive way. So many guys get up there and their sourpuss pulpit hears. Yes, sir. Like they're sucking on persimmon juice while they're preaching the gospel. And you're not, man.

You're loving Jesus. And I don't know how many people are gonna listen to the sermons online, but if you listen to the sermons online before Claude preached, the other two gentlemen, which is Greg and Kevin, you can hear him rooting them on while they're preaching.

Amen.

Well, we ought to say amen to the word. We should. We should. And I was grateful.

I was sitting over there. Then I came and sat back here. But every few minutes you'd hear, amen. And that's you, brother. You're the amen, brother. Thank the Lord. Well, I wanted to, first of all, this is one of the things I've been doing, because I'm gonna compile this into a video for like one podcast where I get in my interviews.

So if you would just, all pastors sort of have a one to two minute or synopsis of their message. Can you tell us what it was you preached about today? I know you talked about David. I know you talked about the mystery, but can you give us the audience what the short version of your sermon is?

And then maybe that'll get encouraged people.

To go listen to the longer version. Yes, sir. So the short version is that the whole topic of the conference here is substance to shadow. So in the Old Testament, there are types and shadows, blurred images of the Messiah, which are brought into full 8K clarity right in the New Testament.

Amen. And so my task was to preach on David as a type in the shadow of Christ, and particularly pointing to Christ being our true King. How David was set King over Israel, but God promised that his lineage, there would be an eternal King come forth.

And that's Jesus. Amen. I love it.

I love it. And that's encouraging. It's always a good reminder to see Christ as the fulfillment of these promises. So many people are always looking for something else to fulfill the promise, but Christ, all the promises of God have their yes and amen in him.

Amen. And he is that fulfillment. So it was wonderful message. I appreciate it. And as always, I'm thankful for our friendship. Me too, brother. I'm thankful for this. We're in the fellow network, and we'll mention the guys.

We're part of the truth and love network. If you guys don't know this, which you should, Claude has the, he's the happy Calvinist. He has the here I stand theology podcast, which to this day still has the coolest intro with Martin Luther saying, here I stand, I can do no other.

So he's got a great podcast. Please listen to that and keep up with what he's doing. Well, brother, that was it. I just wanted to have some fun with you and interview you. I want to thank you for preaching the word and being faithful.

God bless you. God bless you, man. Love you. Love you. So if you would tell us your name, the church that you're with, and what got you to the conference. Yeah.

My name is John Crawford. I'm pastoring Christ Fellowship in Arab, Alabama. It's a weird city name, but maybe that's something we can talk about.

How is it spelled? It's A-R-A-B. So it's like Arab, but A-Rab.

And even the high school mascots, the Arabian Nights. So it's just, it's They know what they're about. That's right. In Arab, Alabama. That's right. In Arab, Alabama. The story is that it was named after a man named A-Rab, and then they misspelled his name and they didn't want to fix it, so they just said A-Rab.

Yeah, who wants to change a D to a B? That's right.

Or whatever. I am from Alabama, so it's, you know, but, and yeah, what brought me to the conference, met Jeff a while back, and he graciously gave me the opportunity to speak here.

And your topic today was on the ark, which is actually one of my favorite Old Testament types of Christ, pointing to Christ. I just finished, I preached three years through Genesis. Wow. And I spent a lot of time talking about many of the same things you talked about.

I do have a question for you, though, and I don't know how you feel about this. There are some who argue that you can only, you can only claim a legitimate type if the New Testament makes that connection.

And the New Testament never really makes the connection of the ark to Christ, at least in an explicit way. So what are your thoughts about that? Do you think that matters? I mean, because I'm with you, I agree that it is,.

But what are your thoughts? Yeah, I do see Christ himself kind of using that language, just as in the days of Noah, so the coming of the Son of Man will be, and then 1 Peter 3, with, won't get into baptism saving you, but

Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean, though, yeah.

So there are appeals of Christ's deliverance with the waters and the ark, but ultimately, brother, yeah,.

And I know this may not be, oh, thank you, brother, thank you, brother.

But ultimately, I tend to lean toward, and I know that may get a lot of flack for this, but just trying to find Christ everywhere, to be honest with you, brother. I think with the metanarrative of scripture, I think with Christ's hermeneutic that he says is, Moses and all the prophets testify me, it's like, okay, if he says he's in there, I'm gonna find him.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I do think Luke 24 covers it all. That's right, brother. As it says, and Moses and all the, you know, is there. He preached himself. Well, I want you to know, we were all blessed by the message.

We appreciate it, encouraged by it. I do like that you move around a little bit. You're the first guy to do that. I tend to move around when I preach, too, so I was like, hey, this guy's, he's not staying behind the pulpit.

He's moving around a little bit. Yes, sir, I gotta get some exercise, so that's how I do it.

Now, are you pastor of a church? I am, brother. So do you do that at your church, too? I do. You move around. Do your people call you a ping pong ball? They don't, but I'm sure if they see this, they'll start doing that, so.

Well, that's neat. It's always like. I'm with you, brother. Like watching the ping pong match, gotta move back and forth, yeah. I'm with you, I'm with you. I got, yeah, I get jittery up there, to be honest with you, brother, so I gotta get my steps in somehow, and I figured the best way to do it is getting fired up in the pulpit, so.

Well, I got a friend who has a pulpit that you have to get in. Okay. You know, it's one of those kinds, like R .C. Sproul's style,.

That you gotta stand inside, and I always thought I'd feel so trapped. Yes, I would start doing circles in there,.

Or something like that. Had to put this thing on a lazy Susan, and spin around. That's right. Well, brother John, I appreciate you sitting down with me. Thank you so much. Thank you, brother. Appreciate you, brother.

God bless you. God bless you, brother. Yeah. Well, Michael, I wanna start by saying thank you for a great message. Really enjoyed listening to it, and I did take some notes while you were talking, so if you thought I was back here playing on the internet, I promise I wasn't.

But I did have my computer open. No backgammon. What's that? No backgammon. No. I do wanna mention, though, one thing that I noticed was you use a lot of humor in your message, and I appreciate that. I'm somewhat of a humorist.

I enjoy that. I enjoy having a good time, and you were very precise in your delivery. Everything was very sharp. You kinda remind me of MacArthur, with the way your hands were on the pulpit. You looked very sharp, the way you dressed, very nice.

Loved the... Well, that's high praise. Thank you. Well, yeah, yeah. So it was great. But the fact that you mentioned Eddie Murphy,.

That was like, this my man. I didn't even realize it. We're on the same page here. So tell the Eddie Murphy story, because that was good. Yeah, so driving home yesterday and heard Eddie Murphy telling this story about how that he has a painting that he bought from somebody's estate, and he purchased it for $50 ,000 years ago.

And here recently, the duplicate of that painting sold for $16 million. And so the guy interviewing him said, oh, so you're rich. And he said, yeah, as long as I've got that painting, I'm rich. And of course, in the context of the sermon, the duplicate was worth that much.

You can only imagine what the original is gonna be worth. And when we look at the Passover, we see the duplicate. And when we can imagine, well, that's the duplicate. What is the original worth? The Christ, the substance of the shadow.

That's great.

And that's an illustration. I want you to know that I'm gonna steal. Yeah. I'm no Ed Litton. But I'm willing to grab when I can. And I'll pick up what I can.

We'll call it sharing and spreading instead of plagiarizing. That's right.

That's right. I'll say Michael Schultz told me that Eddie Murphy said this. And it's funny to say to Eddie Murphy, well, you're rich.

Like he wasn't already rich. Right, yeah. Compared to who exactly? Exactly, yeah. Now you did also say this,.

And I'm gonna put this on Twitter. You said, it's not that in some houses, there were none who died. Every house had someone who died. It was either your son or the lamb. And that was, I think I got it right.

Did I get the quote right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was great. That was an interesting point. It wasn't that you had some with death and some without death. Everybody had death. It's just who died. Right.

And I thought that was a really good point that you made. And like I said, sometimes I take these things and throw them on Twitter and try to show people that we're doing something here that matters. Talking about the gospel, talking about Christ.

And we're doing it in a way that's not common because in so many conferences, it isn't this level of teaching and preaching. You guys are doing a great job. So I just want you to know that. I'm really thankful.

Thank you. Really thankful. Now, I want you to tell me before I get, I do have three fun questions I wanna ask you. Okay. But before we get to the three fun questions, can you tell the listeners, because this interview is gonna go out on our podcast, tell them who you are, where you are serving, and if anybody wanted to get in touch with you, how would they do that?

Yeah.

So my name is Michael Schultz. I'm the senior pastor at Antioch Baptist Church in Lewisburg, Kentucky. I'm not hard to get ahold of, but in our world, I'm not as easy as other people. So I'm not on Twitter.

I have an Instagram, scarcely use it. So I'm on Facebook. You can reach out to me, Michael Schultz, and you can see I've always got a picture of me and my family. Very easy to locate me. But just reaching out that way, or there are videos of me on YouTube.

And usually, if it features me, the person who has posted the video will tell me if somebody's trying to get ahold of me. And so just commenting on the video, I usually can get ahold of you that way or get my email out.

Always glad to talk with people with different questions. So that's a real joy.

Awesome. And where did you say your church Antioch is?

Antioch Baptist Church is in Lewisburg, Kentucky. That's L-E-W-I-S-B-U-R-G. How far is that from Louisville? Oh, it's probably two and a half hours from Louisville. We're about 50 minutes west of Bowling Green.

Gotcha. Maybe an hour and a half north of Nashville. So it's out in the sticks. It's a little church, 60 people. But it's an old church. We're 206 years old. Nice. And we're currently in a growing period and a reforming period.

For a long time, the church was more of a IFB kind of church. Nice. And so what God's doing out there, not just that I don't want to be the pastor that Calvinizes churches. We just want to be biblical.

And so if we believe the reformed theology is true, the soteriology, the ecclesiology, then we ought to live that way and practice that way. And so we're guiding the church in that direction right now and we're praising God for what he's doing at Antioch.

Amen. Well, wonderful. Brother, I appreciate you sitting down with me. I hope you had a good time. Enjoyed to talk with you, Keith.

Thank you so much, brother. Thank you for the message. Thank you very much. Really enjoyed it. All right, everybody, I'm here with Happy Addison. Yes. Now, is Happy your real name? No. Okay, what's your real name?

My real name is Todd, but there's Todd Bentley and Todd, I don't want to be associated with any of them.

I understand. So Happy is a nickname and you go by Haps. Yeah.

That's cool. About 20 years or so I've been called that. Well, we met a couple of days ago.

At the beginning of the conference and I've really enjoyed getting to know you. Very thankful for your ministry. Now, I am going to take that portion that you talked about your ministry and clip that in.

Okay. So people know what it is. But now I want to talk to you about your sermon. Thought that was really interesting going back and forth from the cave of Daniel and the empty tomb. Thought that was really great.

Yeah. And I love your passion and your emotion. So much of reform preaching tends to be very stoic. I think sometimes the frozen chosen is not an unapped name. So I was encouraged by that. So thank you.

Praise the Lord. So if you were to summarize what you just said, and I know I sort of did, but if you were to summarize the most important point of what you just said, what would you say to people? Vindication.

Vindication. Yes. God vindicating Christ and Daniel being vindicated. Yeah. Really.

It's probably my most favorite set of passages in scripture, Daniel chapter six, because you see the whole New Testament unfolding before your very eyes. And you see the precursors of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the gospels of Jesus Christ and God's covenant people, taking God's word and going to all the nations.

And I find that absolutely fascinating. And it really, it's encouraged hundreds of people that have come through my home and where their eyes just light up, you know, and they just, they have this, it leaves you in absolute awe of our God, you know, just absolute awe.

Amen. Well, I wanna thank you again for the message. I wanna thank you for being faithful to the Lord and feeding us all well. All right. God bless you, brother. That's real good. Brother, I really enjoyed the message.

In fact, I took some notes I wanna ask you about. Yeah. But, so if you see me on my computer, I wasn't playing. You weren't ignoring me. I'm trying. No, not at all. I have several things I wanna ask. But before I do that, since I got the recording going, if you would tell everyone, this is our audience.

You have your cameras here. Okay, wonderful. So tell everyone your name, the church you're affiliated with,.

And what brought you to the conference. Yeah. How'd you get connected? I love it. So my name's Braden Patterson. I'm the pastor of Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho. If you live in that area, I would absolutely love for anyone to come and worship God with us.

We preach Christ crucified and risen, and it's a privilege to do such. I have a wife and two kids, of course. But what brought me and myself to this conference is I'm really good friends with Jeff and Haps, and I'm a co-host on Open Air Theology.

Yeah. I was the one that came up with the conference idea from Shadows to Substance, and it's been such a blessing to be here today.

And you have the sweetest stache of all the guys.

You know, you're saying most embarrassing wrong. No, no, no, no. Thank you, thank you.

You've got, you're right there with the wider look. Good, well, you know what? I don't have a beard, so I gotta make up for it some other way. Gotcha, gotcha. All right, well, I wanna bring up my notes here, because I did take a few notes while you were preaching.

I can tell you are very strong in your covenant theology, and I was curious where you study, because a lot of the language you use sounds like, I've heard Sam Waldron and a few other guys, a lot of the 1689 guys using words like positive law versus like the tripartite, you know, moral ceremonial.

They use positive law versus natural law. So where did that come from?

Yeah, that's a really good question. So I, myself, am XLDS. When I first became a Christian, by God's grace, I had such a privilege to be discipled by really great men that I look up to very much, two of which would be, well, three, well, there's several, so I feel bad if I don't mention everyone.

Matt Slick with karm .org, Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, was pivotal in my discipleship, and then also Paul Thompson from Eastside Baptist Church. He's the one that pastored and discipled myself into the role of pastoral ministry and ordained me there at that church.

And so most of my studying and my theological framework comes from self-study, truly. I do love Sam Waldron. I love Samuel Renahan and Richard Barcelos. I love all those guys very, very much. So I think when I first became a Christian, I immediately gravitated to being a Calvinist and reformed in my theology.

But over time, that even became much more firmer in my reformed Baptist covenant theology that I see in the Bible, the framework that I see there. Gotcha, gotcha.

Well, another question that I had here was, I've never seen it done before, and so don't take this as a negative. I've never seen anyone pray over the different parts of the message. Is that something you do always, or is that just for today?

So that's a great question. So in my thinking, so when I get up on a Sunday, I'm usually doing expositional preaching, right? Always, very rarely do I do a topical message. So that was the hardest part for me today, was not just the delivery of the word, but it was the preparation of the topic from Adam to Christ.

And so how I normally do expositional preaching is I'll pray before I read the text, pray after reading the text, and then preach the text, and then pray following that. And so today, because I was going through several different places, I wanted to prepare my tongue for what I was preaching on in different sections of the Bible.

Okay, so this was something unique to the conference. I thought it was interesting. I'd never seen that before. I was very, it was encouraging, different, liked it. I also wanted to have to mention one other thing.

You mentioned chiastic structure. Very few guys even say anything about that. I was like, oh, you know, because I taught through Genesis for three years through Genesis, really loved it, and there's a lot of that people don't recognize.

So very cool, very cool that you mentioned that. And again, I want to recommend to everyone, when these messages come out on the website, please, I will link them because these are, he said it's going to be a little while before they actually get them out.

So this may go out before that, but as soon as they come out, please get these guys' messages and listen to them. They're really great. Well, brother, again, I want to thank you for sharing your word with us, for preaching to us, and I thank you for being on the program.

Hey, thank you so much. God bless you. Let's see how this goes. Yeah, yeah, well, I've been doing sort of informal things during the conference, nothing major, just sort of talking about your message.

But before I do that, because I know some of my listeners may not know you, even though you're world famous.

Maybe infamous, in America's Most Wanted, does that count? Yeah, infamous.

You remember Three Amigos? Or maybe you don't. No. It was a film with Steve Martin.

Oh, you don't know how pop culture illiterate I am. Are you pop culture illiterate? Oh, definitely. Oh my goodness. Okay. That's why you don't understand. Was it this morning we had our theological discussion?

I forget. Now I even forget what film. Oh, pop. Oh, what was it now? I forgot. I mentioned some film, and I was actually surprised that I knew what it was, but.

There's a part of the movie where the guy says infamous, and he goes, he thought it meant infamous, like more than famous. Like, oh, this guy's famous, not infamous. Yeah. Okay, so yeah, you're infamous.

Well, this is Andrew Rappaport, for everyone who doesn't know. Andrew Rappaport is with Striving for Eternity Ministries, and he's been all over the world preaching the gospel, and came to the conference this week.

Tell us how you got connected with Jeff.

So Jeff and I first met at a Super Bowl outreach. Super Bowl outreach? Yep, we were both evangelizing at a Super Bowl, and I have to be honest, it's my shame, I don't remember, he does, but I don't remember what we discussed.

He said he was going through something, and I just pulled him aside, and we just talked together, prayed together, and I guess, because I do that a lot with folks, but it was memorable to him, and then we saw each other at Truth Matters, and when we were at Truth Matters, we talked and had a really good conversation, and I've been trying to get him to make Bibles for me.

That's what Jeff does. Oh, he does beautiful work, but really what it was is, I think what endeared me to Jeff, and what I, as I said in the message, is he's the kind of brother I love to disagree with.

You got to see, I may disagree with a lot of people, but I love a guy like Jeff, who you can disagree with him, and he's so gracious, and it allows me to be able to just say what I'm thinking, without feeling I'm gonna be judged, even if I'm thinking through something.

I could say it, and he has strong views, and he's gonna tell me his views. He's gonna tell me where he disagrees, but he'll engage with whatever I say, and we can actually work through theology and discuss it, and I feel like I could say anything to him, and he's not gonna judge me.

He'll tell me he thinks I'm wrong, but it's just refreshing to have that disagreement, and so that's why I love talking with him.

Good deal, good deal. Well, I appreciate your message. I just finished three years preaching through Genesis, so while you were preaching from chapter 12 to 22, I was remembering some of the things that I had said.

And you were wondering how I did it quickly, huh? You were going, hey, it took me three years.

I spent a lot of time in the weeds. I wish I could've. Yeah, yeah, it's fun. There's so much. But it's interesting that you mentioned about the typology of Isaac, because I dealt with that a little bit, too.

How do we define a true type and any type? I think you're right in one sense that the scripture tells us certain types and any types, like the Passover is very clear. Even Jonah, as you mentioned, is very clear.

But things like the ark and Isaac, which seem to be certainly illustrations. So is that the word you would use, illustration?

I don't know if it'd be, yeah, I usually just say there's a lot of similarities, because I don't know if I can actually say it's a type if scripture doesn't say it's a type. And that's my struggle.

And I think that's fair, if that's where you wanna be, where you draw your line.

The whole thing is I don't wanna stand before Christ. Sure. And he goes, he says, Andrew, you said what you shouldn't have said. Yeah. I mean, he might be able to say, you didn't say enough. Yeah. You could've gone further,.

But at least I'm gonna say I didn't wanna go beyond what you say. Well, I've heard guys go as far as saying things like, well, when they put the blood on the doorpost, they put it in the shape of a cross.