Jude 6

TWELVE 5 CHURCH

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well hello good evening we're a little spread out in here tonight but I figure if we're gonna have the youth in here we better have enough seats so I think

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I think we're I think we'll have plenty of room we got plenty of seats in here tonight's gonna be a little bit different as you can tell

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I have a microphone because I really want you to hear me now pastor

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Jeremiah is actually going to be up here with me I've got another microphone so we're going to approach tonight's text a little bit different a little more dialogue because this is a difficult topic a difficult text that needs to be talked through and and it's one of those texts that brothers and sisters can come to the table and talk about and have unity and have differing opinions it's all good and so we thought this would be a great opportunity to do this that microphone behind you you'll have to speak into that we're recording because as you can tell on band we had a number of people saying

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I can't be there but I want to be there so we're recording it that's why we have the microphones so that they can hear us we also can you hear us better we also plan to wear the same shirts

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I called Ali and we scheduled that out just right who does it better of course it's me okay so before we get started before we pray miss

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Christy contacted me today I'm gonna I'm gonna put you on blast here and had a collar yes had an idea that I wanted to present to everybody

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I'm not I'm not gonna tell them all the things that you're saying about everybody so she had an idea and I thought we would present it and see what everybody else thought that it was a very good thought you know how some churches do food on Wednesday nights because people have a tough time getting off work and getting here we can't really provide that and we don't want another corn in the feast but what if like once a month we order pizza in like maybe the first Wednesday of every month or the last

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Wednesday of every month whatever that may be to do like pizza night to where we just order pizza in that way y 'all don't have to like rush around trying to get to fast food and get here and and then and then maybe go out afterwards or whatnot is that something that everyone would like or it's like I'm indifferent

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Don is going to be paying for and bringing sushi once a month is that something everyone would be interested in like just that way it's just easy yes for me that's a yes alrighty well that's something we'll work on and we'll try and schedule that and figure out what

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Wednesday so we'll let you know about that it's gonna be quite a dialogue and we're starting a little bit late so instead of breaking down and doing the prayer like we usually do absolutely let's pray

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Heavenly Father thank you so much for just allowing all of us to be able to gather together this evening

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God around the the truth of your word Lori pray for illumination God that you would help guide us in the word

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God please help us to be equipped to be able to combat against false teachers that creep into the church that we read and God please by the

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Spirit just help us to be equipped with that gospel contend for the faith that's been once delivered so Lord just please bless our endeavors this evening your name

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Jesus we pray amen amen well we're in Jude those of you that been with us you know that we have been covering one verse a night and we have now made it to verse 6 but what

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I want us to do because of this continuous thought starting in verse 5 I want us to read of this big chunk as a whole so open up your

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Bibles to Jude and we're gonna start in verse 5 and read up through verse 13

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Jude says now I want to remind you although you once fully knew it that Jesus who saved a people out of the land of Egypt afterward destroyed those who did not believe and the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority but left their proper dwelling he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities which likewise indulge in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire yet in like manner these people also relying on their dreams defile the flesh reject authority and blaspheme the glorious ones but when the

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Archangel Michael contended with the devil was disputing about the body of Moses he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment but said the

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Lord rebuke you but these people blaspheme all that they do not understand and they are destroyed by all that they like unreasoning animals understand instinctively woe to them for they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's heir and perished in Cora's rebellion these are hidden reefs at your love feast as they feast with you without fear shepherds feeding themselves waterless clouds swept along by winds fruitless trees in late autumn twice dead uprooted wild waves of the sea casting up the foam of their own shame wandering stars for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever as we've seen over the past few weeks

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Jude is addressing this group of believers and he's he's warning them of false teachers that he's warning them of people that have crept in and now here he gives us these examples and and I broke down this portion last week when we first started but I want to do it again like every week so we can kind of see this structure of these triads that Jude is using and verses five and seven that we are portion we're looking at tonight we see these

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Old Testament examples of rebellion and then God's judgment divine judgment upon that rebellion we see first the one we looked at last week

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Israel's rebellion in the wilderness that we looked at in numbers 14 he references that God he did not allow them to go into the promised land the one we're gonna look at tonight these rebellious angels that we're gonna be referencing then he then he brings in Sodom and Gomorrah and their rebellion in Genesis 19 and then in verses 8 through 10 we have this account of Michael and the archangel with Satan and then in verses 11 through 13 we have more

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Old Testament examples and these examples are a little different than the other three these are of rebels corrupting others and so we saw the story of Cain in this he uses that example in Genesis 4 we see the story of Balaam in numbers and and then we see

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Korah in numbers 16 and then he compares them to selfish shepherds clouds without rain chaotic waves so we see this this process that Jude is bringing us through as we've been walking through hey these are false teachers here's some comparisons of rebellion dishonor of God and then

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God's judgment and how God responded to rebellion and they given us these examples and so last week we saw five so tonight we are looking specifically at verse 6 and again like I said earlier this is a this is a difficult text this is a text that that scholars have disputed over the years and many scholars today still have differing opinions on and and this one in verse 6 is the second of these first three

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Old Testament examples of rebellion because remember last week verse 5 the old the nation of Israel in the wilderness and then in the next verse he's gonna be talking about Sodom and Gomorrah so what

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Old Testament account is he referring to here in verse 6 can anyone tell me Genesis 6 right so we're gonna be looking at that tonight as a matter of fact let's read that section if you want to turn your

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Bibles back to Genesis chapter 6 can I make one comment yes and Jude because one view is

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Jude be referring to just the angelic fall from you know around the foundation of the world and I think that's within the realm of possibility but one clue that I think we can tie it to Genesis 6 is when he says just like or just as Sodom and Gomorrah and when you look at that context sure there was idolatry in those things but there was explicit sexual immorality so that's kind of the very good example if you if you see it back in in Jude though like what he was just saying and when he get when you get to verse 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities which likewise indulge in sexual immorality so the language there seems to imply that what he said previously in verse 6 like he just said is referring to sexual immorality with the angels so Genesis 6 let's look at that real quick the first four verses in that in Genesis 6 verse 1 says when man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them now mind you you'll see if you look in your

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Bibles throughout the the next part of this chapter this is right before the flood so the story of Noah is getting ready to come into account and so so it says hey the man has multiplied on the face of the land and the daughters were born to them in the verse 2 it says the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive and they took as their wives any they chose then the

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Lord said my spirit shall not abide in man forever for he is flesh his days shall be a hundred and twenty years the

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Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God came into the daughters of man and they bore children to them these were the mighty men who were of old the men of renown now if you're reading this and you're not familiar with this account in this story how is this account about rebellious angels anyone see the word angels in those four verses how would we know this is about angels what do you think down so he said

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Benet Elohim so explain more about them what are some do you remember some examples when

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Benet Elohim was used yeah and it's referred to I think three times in Job so there is dispute we could there's actually a few different views of what sons of God could be referring to and one of you says you got godly men a godly lineage and some can you explain the terminology of what that's referred to yes you come by like the godly genealogy

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I was gonna say so earlier in Genesis 5 you have the descendants of Adam to Noah and you kind of have two genealogies you had the line of Seth which was kind of considered this a godly line and then you have the ungodly line of Cain and so the view goes on to say then you had the the

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Sethites the offspring of Seth intermarrying with the daughters of Cain and then you get these

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Nephilim does anybody else have a different translation for Nephilim by chance I think some translations say

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Giants so that's kind of the idea that's in mind here and later in the

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Old Testament you had the conquest of Canaan there's were these tribes of Giants right so it kind of stems back to the

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Nephilim here and so they're saying that this was a byproduct of these people so that's one solid view the

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Sethite view and it's a legitimate view like R .C. Sproul holds that view that the these the again that now he holds the right that's pretty hard man yes but the point is that there are people that have some arguments that this could be a legitimate interpretation of Genesis 6 is everyone trekking with us the

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Sethite view that the sons of God are the essentially the the line of Seth and so these are gotten them right that's true very true well

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I think there's a lot of problems with it we can talk about that as we as we get through it but but that's one of the views but the other view is that the sons of God is referring to just as Don mentioned angels which by the way the only time in all of Scripture that that phrase the sons of God what what is it in the

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Hebrew everybody hear that benay

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Elohim benay Elohim that phrase the only other time in the

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Old Testament that it's seen is like they said three times in the book of Job and then one time in Daniel and every single one of those accounts is without question speaking of angels and so we also know though that that there is some legitimacy in the argument that well we know that we as children were sons of God right we're all we're sons of God if we're if we're believers but see nowhere in the

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Old Testament does is this phrase even in the New Testament there's nowhere else in Scripture where this phrase is used specifically for us it's a completely different phrase and so that's why most scholars believe that well if it's in four other places this way directly then it must be meaning angels and so in the

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New Testament we do see sons of God it does carry this Hebrew idea like you're talking about it's mentioned to refer to it as Adam in the genealogy

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I believe in Luke's account and you ask what meaningful way was Adam a son of God well he was a direct creation of God that's why it makes sense with angels they're sons of God they're a direct creation and so when we read one of the

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Beatitudes that says blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God we realize that we're a new creation we are directly created by virtue of the

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Holy Spirit and so that just kind of echoes the the Hebrew terminology of what sons of God means well can anyone else think of another account in the

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New Testament that ties Jude verse 6 and Genesis 6 together you want to read that so there we see

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I would say a different account of what is going on but we see the same action being taken yes it would not because in the

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New Testament we have we have them writing not in Hebrew and so the phrasing is usually different so there's in the

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Old Testament there's still a Hebrew term for angel and we look in there

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Septuagint it's translated Angelos so the argument could be made well why didn't

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Moses use the Hebrew term for angels here and so I think a really good explanation is sons of God is more of a genealogical term which flows out of Genesis chapter 5 so he's trying to get at the those that were created by the hand of God are starting to step into the picture that's that's exactly what

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I was looking for that's perfect that's that is a correlating passage so when we look at that section of 2nd

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Peter and then we look at the section and Jude that we're looking at it's almost like Jude was cheating on Peters homework and looking over and like okay that's good because they correlate so well together because they're essentially saying a lot of the same thing because that passage you just brought up Peter is actually addressing false teachers and he uses the same example and so yes he's it you're reading the 2nd

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Peter 2 4 right that was the one and so that is a correlating verse where we can actually go and extrapolate from that what you're saying okay well

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Peter makes it clear this is angels so what's he talking about so that same verse says that they are bound in hell right it's interesting because when you look in the

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Greek here it's not the word Gehenna or Hades it's Tartarus so Peter is making a more precise term that there's something special marked out for angels that sinned in the context of Noah and I want to say in 1st

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Peter chapter 3 there's kind of a similar context with the spirit 20 the spirits imprisoned right

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I'm going to read that passage I've got it here for Christ also suffered once for sins the righteous for the unrighteous that he might bring us to God but put to death in the flesh but made alive in the

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Spirit so Jesus the sacrifice Jesus made in verse 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formally did not obey when

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God's patience waited in the days of Noah yeah and when he's talking about the time that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison he's not giving them a second chance

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I believe caught Colossians 2 talks about how he disarmed the principalities and powers it's almost like Jesus during this time of his death and resurrection is preaching a message of triumph not of second chance but you start to tie it together 1st

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Peter 2nd Peter Jude and even depending on your eschatology Adam you could look at Revelation 9 and you see these demonic figures bit coming out of the pit which kind of raises the question how did they get there to begin with right what how did they sin in such a way to deserve to already be locked up in Tartarus only to in some way be released and so it kind of all points back to Genesis 6 so it's translated in English as hell but I'm saying there's a different Greek word for Gehenna which is the lake of fire essentially and there's another word for Hades what we read in Greek and so I'm saying in English we always read as hell but I think

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Peters getting at something deeper so when you look up Tartarus this is a subterranean within the abode of the unrighteous and we say the context is more for angels here that's one view yeah and I'm saying that's a good orthodox view to have a lot of people do make that connection yeah that's that's what

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I tried to mention a moment ago I don't think those two are the same account I think these are two very different they're very different yeah but they do correlate in the sense that they can apply it shows that God has the right over his creation to do it as he pleases and he oversees it he can send it to eternal judgment he can release it he can do whatever he sees fit and whatever he says he's gonna do

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I think that's a valid view to have

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I know John MacArthur takes that view that we see possession happening all throughout the

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Bible so maybe that's what happened here I don't just say that's outside the realm of possibilities reason why

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I don't take that view is because we do see angelic beings take taking on physical form right now we see it with holy angels but nothing says they ever stopped with fallen angels in fact we do see

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Satan taking on the form of a serpent right so we still see that and to me it's within the realm of possibility if they can manifest themselves into the realm well then why can the next step of procreation not happen and and the byproduct of that would be something way different than what we're used to which would justify the

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Giants or the Nephilim kind of well that's what I was about to say it really greatly depends on what what you do with verse 4 in Genesis 6 and so when he says the

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Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterwards when the sons of God came to the daughters of man and bore children so one view is that the

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Nephilim that's being mentioned of here or some of your translations like you said Giants which is kind of the consensus across the board like this is what the

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Nephilim are some believe that that the writer here is not saying that the

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Nephilim were the result of this physical relationship between the men and the women bear with me here what they say is that he wrote for the

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Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward in the Hebrew that and isn't there that's been added in the

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English that and isn't there but in the Hebrew if the and isn't there it it's it's an addendum to the thought not an extra thought and so there's argument to be made that what he's saying in verse 4 is oh by the way you've been taught because of the book of Enoch right because of that we know we can look historically and look at books like the book of Enoch and say okay this was their view of this account they believe that Giants are a result of angels demons having relationships with earthly women and creating these

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Nephilim that obviously existed so the argument there is is that what he's saying is not that they're the result what he's actually throwing in there is that oh by the way what you thought was the result of these angels having relationships with women that's disconnected what what he's saying is hey they were there before and they're out there afterwards the

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Nephilim or something totally detached from the and the the women that that's one view and if you hold that view then that view that John MacArthur holds of the possession it it holds some water because if that's the case then yeah possession and then they just had children and the result wasn't

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Giants the result was just children that were ungodly that makes sense because if a demon possesses if a demon possesses a man and a man has relations with a woman genetics are still involved they're producing a child and it's not a demon child because it's that man and that woman's child it's not the the intent of the action that's happening with the demon and so if that's the interpretation at the

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Nephilim have nothing to do with this if these actually contradicting the Nephilim in this passage from being that essentially the readers changing their viewpoint from what they had always thought then that makes sense my problem with it is if these

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Nephilim are a result of these angels and women it that doesn't make any sense

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I don't know that I can I can go along what do you think of that yeah so the first view you said with that also kind of line up with the set that view as well because you're just having you're having natural offspring and then this is something just kind of disconnected

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I think that's the only way the set that view makes sense yeah so so one of the views is that it was angels but it was angels possessing physical men and in those physical men being possessed by the demons had relations with women and one of my follow -up points was that's within the realm of possibility but maybe not the one

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I mean that's not the one that I hold to because like you were saying it seems like that would just result in natural children and then we're saying the fact that the

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Nephilim are being brought up here seems to be as a result of the context earlier and so some if we agree that the

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Nephilim are being a byproduct here then the set that view doesn't really work for me because when when humans are procreating you occasionally get a

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Yao Ming here and there a giant right but you don't get tribes of giant something you know big has to be an external factor has to abruptly come in to be able to produce these giant tribes of or of Giants now you're getting the

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Watchers from the book of you know yeah can you point to a reference for that I think what you're saying let me clarify with everybody tell me if I'm wrong what you're saying is that the account of demons kind of the third a third of the angels being cast out with Satan are different than these angels that came down with the women these are a totally different set of angels that have fallen and I think that's a legitimate argument and the reason

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I would say that is because of the passage let's look here in Genesis 6 let's see here in verse 2 the sons of God saw the daughters of man were were attractive and they took their wives so they're looking on they're seeing that they're attractive but also in our passage in Jude 6 and the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority might give us some hint that these were actually angels that had not previously fallen yet and and you're pulling that from a passage in Daniel not just the book of Enoch okay all right well there are there are some good reason

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I mean the book of Enoch is a really good resource historically to help us get into the mindset of how the original readers are seeing things because even all the way up until Jude's time like these

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Jewish people they're reading the book of Enoch like they see it as they see it as something real like something historical and so it's very helpful for us to utilize it but yeah we yeah we have to be care

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I mean I think I think the book of Enoch already kind of shoots itself in the foot in a lot of ways I mean the fact that it claims that these

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Nephilim are what 500 foot tall and we have no reference of any of that like I mean there's a lot of there's a lot of things that get lost and it's kind of playing off the idea

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I think it's a numbers where the two spies went out and said we were like grasshoppers to these men yeah but that's poetic you know that brings up a whole nother thing so we can have a conversation about and see what y 'all think and I haven't worked this out in my mind so maybe you can rebuke me through the process welcome to how me and him interact

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I say things and he rebukes me no no okay so we look at the story of Israel coming through the wilderness and defeating

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Giants we look at King David killing Goliath there are some scholars that claim and tie the people of Israel into being used by God to finally get rid of this

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Nephilim genetics on the earth I like it come on so there is there are scholars that believe that the

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Nephilim because remember it says that they were they they were there then and even after this account the

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Nephilim was still a part of and we're not sure how this all worked out how these angels engage with these women and what they produced but we know they were

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Giants in some way and if that's the case if you notice there is a real emphasis on Israel killing off all the

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Giants right so you have this account and some of them actually are able to tie like Goliath being from a community that was known as Giants but became a

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Philistine and David killing off that last giant you have the account of the people of Israel going into the promised land and they were like grasshoppers they're talking about Giants and he's told to go in and slaughter these people like take them out like and God gives them the land by defeating them and it's like God using his people to wipe out this abomination on the earth

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I like it I had a follow -up thought with and also afterward because you know the last phrase there are these were the mighty men who were of old these men of renown so we see that phrase come up later in reference to Nimrod I think towards the end of Genesis 10 someone can look that up but it's right it's setting the stage for the

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Tower of Babel and so it's neat I read a really good book called Tower of Babel that answers in Genesis highly endorsed but one thought was you have all these you have all these

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I just went blank on the term but you have all these deities the demigods you know that are in Greek mythology you have

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Viking terminal or Viking deities and all these stories perhaps have some validity going up back to the

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Tower of Babel where you would have these kind of demigods we're saying really these would have been

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Nephilim right where there's demonic presence involved and then you kind of see that conquest happening later out or later on so I'm just saying you do see a jump from Genesis 6 to kind of the end of Genesis 10 but really setting up the the story for Genesis 11 with the

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Tower of Babel good that's a good tie -in yeah right yeah and Vikings is it

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Norik that's the term I was trying to think of say like there's all these ancient stories of like demigods and then there's a point of validity is saying hey this stems all the way back to Babel right well

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I mean we talked about the men of renown like what is that and that could possibly make sense and when we're tying that in together we look at I mean you were talking the other day and you were talking about references to Thor so you have so we have accounts of these mythological gods in all these other cultures that could be an account of angelic beings essentially demons that are desiring to be worshipped and and having the

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Nephilim being those mighty men of renown that were able to come in and conquer cities and be amazing and do these miraculous things because the argument is brought up you know we look back and we say okay well we have these these these entire people groups that build a statue and then spend their entire lives worshipping this statue these weren't stupid people these weren't just ignorant people who didn't know better these these these people are not just building a statue and saying well that's my god now and because these are the types of people that are building pyramids like these are the types of people that are doing amazing things that we look back in history these are intelligent individuals the point is is that there is demonic interaction going on with these gods and there has to be some level we look back and we look at the

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Orient right and we see their history and we see some of their back their past gods and all that comes into play like this could very well be the mighty men of renown that is being spoken of because of these angelic creatures being engaged and involved in the world and gaining a following gaining worshipers through that I was gonna say a place to point out

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I think Deuteronomy 32 I think Adam could check me on this to see if I think demons are actually explicitly mentioned in Deuteronomy 32 but it's in the context of building idols and then demonic interaction happen what's the term for that there's a word for building idols as a home for there's an actual you said it the other day and I couldn't remember it and I was like that's the word

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Zurich Zurich that's it yes so that's what I was getting at you know they're building these idols and the purpose of these idols is it's they're they're building a home for their

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God so they already have some idea that this God is doing something great like let's build a home for them so they're happy with us a

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Zurich I can never say I can never remember that word Zurich I can't remember

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I think so you got it you kind of googling it kind of mimics not a pyramid but it takes similar shape yeah but it's like you're talking about a place of worship yeah so there's an argument brought up against kind of the fallen angel view

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I thought we could maybe touch on this briefly so back in verse two it says sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive and took as their wives any that they chose so the idea is okay

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Matthew 22 Jesus explicitly telling the Sadducees that and after the resurrection there's not going to be marriage like the angels and so the equivocation is saying see it says wives here in the

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English therefore that's null and void that's not what's talking about and so the Hebrew term could be referring to women and that is to procreate you don't have to be married right it could be a totally sinful act that's going on so when we see wives there that's not a hard and fast stance man that there was this this marriage ceremony not to mention they've left their place of dwelling their rightful place right so we think of mark 1225 when it speaks of us in the future where it says for when they raise from the dead they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like angels in heaven so there's coming a time with you and I that we're not married anymore right and that'll be that position for us but it doesn't mean that we don't have the capability of being married at this moment

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I think that that argument it really doesn't hold much water because we know that at some point we'll be made like angels or we don't marry but we'll be in an eternal state because we're glorified right we know the angels that have fallen they're not in a glorified state right there they're whatever

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God prescribes for them in that moment it's like okay you're for judgment you're for salvation but I don't think that the argument holds water that the angels aren't capable of Mary yeah and and you don't even need you don't even need that to be in place so that's what you're getting at is you don't even need it to be accurate because wives here could be referred to as women in general not not your spouse that's good so that's good

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I so I really think that was the intent because I think from the very beginning

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Satan's plan was to pollute the bloodline to prevent the offspring from the woman to crush his head so you see murder happening from the very beginning that would destroy a lineage and then you also see some type of try a pollution of the bloodline

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Erica brought up an excellent point I mean here we're talking about this topic the other day and she said well that that concept of Noah and his wife and his sons and his wives that actually contradicts the set that view and that made

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I was like pretty good insight and I thought it was great she was like well if that's the case then this if the set that view is true then they've already corrupted even even

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Noah and his I think their argument is the law wasn't given to have a hard and fast don't do this yet the tap the

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Tower of Babel we're being charitable here we can have disagreements the beauty of a passage like this and and I know that we're kind of veering off track a little bit so like the we could teach

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Jude tonight and and last week we could teach this section as a whole and we could get the principle of it great the problem is is

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I feel like we need all the background of each one of these categories and the reason is the original listeners had it the original listeners that Jude's writing to he doesn't have he can go shorthand he can give them a sentence about the fallen angels because they're automatically oh yeah he's talking about Genesis 6 he's talking about this and this is exactly what happened we don't have that privilege in some cases how many of y 'all have ever heard any of this how many have not heard any of this yeah so I think it's important that we stop at each of these categories the way we're doing and that's why

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I wanted us to be able to have the dialogue to say okay we can have differences somebody in this church can hold the set that view we saw fellowship wonderful I'm so glad you come to a conviction somebody in this church can hold the view that the angels were a possessed man and had children great we can have that we have fellowship it doesn't destroy the principle of what

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Jude is getting at what Jude is really driving home here and we have to keep that in the forefront of our minds is look at what

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God does to those that disobey him look at what happens look at the consequences when you do not follow

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God's prescribed means and and in this context your prescribed means is to to combat false teachers and those who teach anything contrary to the gospel that was given to you are to be as as Paul said in Galatians 1 and anathema right there are cursed and so this is the principle that we have to keep in our minds the whole time this is how serious

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God takes false teachers he's comparing the idea of somebody teaching a false truth about God or this free grace like these

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Gnostics are holding to in this time in this church they're saying yeah Jesus but we can live however we want to Jude saying let me tell you what that is just like and it's compared to the nation of Israel rejecting

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God and not getting to enter the promised land that's just like the angels or the sons of Seth whichever one you want to hold to it's just like them not staying within their proper abode and going out into into what is not theirs and their proper their proper sphere this is what

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God does and then we're gonna see another example of that with Sodom and Gomorrah next week that's the view

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I take we're also saying it's charitable to say if you have a hold the set that view or think that the men of renown are referring to types of Kings that's okay too so that's been a historic doctrine or understand this for a long time in the church what your favorite person

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Augustin didn't popularize it though it did not take on most of most of yeah right well that became very popular in that time but the early church for them as a whole held the angel view a little bit and the argument from the other side is it has to do a little bit with the influence of on the

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Jewish culture I think it's stronger right and even the early Christians were influenced everybody yeah so so one other quick thing and this may open up further discussion but something

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I think is almost an application from Jude and how you look at all these passages together is spiritual warfare because even though this was going on within this view back then there's still demons at work can you know

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Satan's still at work roaming around like I think you referenced this verse in one of your last sermons but he's like a he's like a lion trying to devour whomever he can he is actively blinding the eyes of unbelievers and so there is real spiritual warfare among us and so we see that in Jude that's exactly what

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Satan's doing Ephesians 2 says he's working through the sons of disobedience and they're creeping into the church into our leadership right and so how do we combat spiritual warfare

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I think Ephesians 6 is probably my go -to passages say you equip yourself with the whole body armor of God equip your heart and your mind with God's truth

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Jesus modeled that in the wilderness right standing on what is written you had your hand up yeah how

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I categorize is God had purpose for whatsoever comes to pass like a very specific reason for whatsoever exist but as it's playing out he's permitting it like the

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Job account so you know we can look at the will of God a couple different ways but he has a sovereign will that cannot be thwarted

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Job finally felt that towards the end right and then you got a revealed will of God that can be broken right look at the commandments we broke we break those every day essentially and so we're distinguishing different facets of God's will we have to have those categories in order for God to maintain his omniscience and even his justice on that part because God doesn't cause anyone to sin right so we know that we know that God is not making anyone said he tempts no one right but his his his passive decree at times allows sin in the world do anyone that thinks that God's hand wasn't in allowing

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World War two to happen and everything to work out doesn't believe in an omniscient

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God right even though that was wicked and God is not the author of any of that sin but he is still allowing for purposes we don't know but it's all for his for his his glory right and so we have an account like this that happened so of course it landed within God's prescribed will for God to say hey here's here's what's gonna happen and he does it for a purpose we mentioned earlier a few weeks ago we were reading about these false teachers that they were they were marked out long ago for this condemnation remember us having that conversation it's like it's like God had already ordained that these false teachers would arrive in that particular church why would he do that why would false teachers why does

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God not just say you know what my will is that the church is pure and there's no false teachers are ever gonna enter that seems from our perspective to be the right move but it's not the right move because God didn't do it because God does all things well right and so God has in his sovereign will allowed false teachers to enter at the appointed time for an appointed purpose and it's all for his glory and so why would these angels be any different God is allowing this circumstance to happen for his purpose in his glory and man did that man did that on his own volition and he's responsible for doing so but God ordained all of every move of it so and that's a hard truth that's a really hard truth because we have a propensity to only categorize things by our own will and so when we categorize things by our own will our wills are distorted our wills are selfish our wills are sinful

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God's will is perfect so even things that we look at that God does that we would call evil

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God can call good because he's altogether different because his purposes are perfect we have to see and to me

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I bring up that question that goes all the way back to to creation right like why in the world did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden why didn't just leave it out if the intent was to have the garden forever right and everything be perfect and Adam and Eve not sin then why put the tree in there in the first place because he had ordained from eternity past the very second that Eve bit into that fruit and handed it to Adam he had ordained the very purpose of it and we know that because of passages that tell us that he has he's predestined us before the foundations of the world so before he ever put the tree in the knowledge of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden he had already predestined

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Nathan Hargrave he had already said I set my love and affection you and I'm gonna carry out the means in order to get there to get you and and you're gonna see my majesty played out in full because of it instead of just creating a being and saying hey look at how good a

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God I am without any reference point to the evil of the universe the the wickedness of my own heart and the goodness of God I would never know

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I would be worshiping a God partially because I would never know him in full and but God uses these means even though they're evil but he's not the author of sin so that's a hard one speak to that if you're gonna clarify that much better than I did

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I liked it yeah I love how you're going back to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that purpose and I actually like how the

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King James renders Revelation 13 8 that Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world so there was this grand plan of redemption to take place right so how do you get

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God's love grace long suffering patience all these things well you got to have all of redemptive history right you have to have a will and a purpose for evil to exist to crush it right for God's glory the full range of his attributes to be put on display that would include love against sin which is wrath like you're talking about so from God's perspective he's sovereign he has a purpose that we keep using this word there's a purpose in all things the good the bad and ugly

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God is in charge of it right his hand is not effectually causing any evil but God does have an overall arcing purpose for what exists

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I just repeated I just repeated what you said in the days of Noah yep is that why you're pre mill we're about to get into eschatology soon that's how

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I grew up all right so we're at 633 733

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I was gonna get I was just buying us another hour to talk all right anyone have one short question any one last thought that has to be answered because because those chains will be eternal right well well they'll be spiritual chains but they will be eternal chains right they're going to be judged for eternity and so these are eternal so it doesn't matter if they're going to be released for a moment to be judged they're going back to chains we're in one accord all right good all right guys well we gotta get one from the youth so there are questions looming up there they're just scared we don't talk in front of our parents they're all shaking their heads no hey brother