Provoked: Picking The Brains of Great Pastors w/Luke Pierson

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00:04

Brothers, what we do in life echoes in eternity.

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I mean, this is what's wrong with the Christian church today. We don't know who God is, and we don't know who we are.

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This is where we hold them. This is where we fight. Officer, you need to repent of your lawless conduct.

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You don't know the law, and yet you pretend to represent it. That's not law enforcement, sir.

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That's being a thug. We will not stop fighting and bothering you all until this monstrous, barbaric practice of legalized abortion ends, and we are teaching our children to do the same.

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God's word says that the shed blood of innocent humans cries out for justice, and mark my words, they will have their day in court.

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Nobody gets saved by being treated nicely. They get saved by hearing the gospel. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

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If we don't open our mouths and commend Christ, we're not loving him, no matter what we're doing with our hands.

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Hey everybody, welcome to Provoked. I'm here with my beautiful brother in Christ, Luke the

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Bear Pearson, and my beautiful, tiny old sister. Not old.

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Oh gosh. Thank you. And we just want to start out by asking forgiveness for all the things that we are going to say that will offend different, multiple people groups within the world.

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Probably. We don't mean to, it's just who we are. Yeah. So, you know what

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I mean? Yeah, it's like Luke and Zach unplugged. Yeah, we're always unplugged. And I'm just going to sit here in the middle and watch you.

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ReformCon is in T -minus 13 - Three weeks. Three weeks.

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From tomorrow. 21 days. ReformCon, it's going to be people speaking a lot there, and we're going to have

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Pastor Jeff Durbin, Pastor John Sampson, Toby McGuire will be there.

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No, wrong Toby. Toby Sumter, who's incredible. There's going to be artistic performances, food, after shows.

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You're doing an interpretive dance, right? Interpretive dancing that I will be doing fully in my full - You know what I really wanted you to do, but I don't think it'll work.

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Like at the end, I don't want to give away everything, but there's like this closing moment thing we're going to do that involves a flag, a big flag.

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And I really wanted you to run down the aisle like Hacksaw Jim Duggan, like in some skivvies with that, like,

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Hey -oh! In a two -by -four. It would have been the best. We still have time. Consider it done.

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I mean, people are doing artistic performances. Why can't I do that? You are a spitting image of Hacksaw Jim Duggan.

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I am. So go to ReformCon .org and make those plans.

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We're three weeks out. That means you're going to load up all the kids, jam them in the car, come down.

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It's going to be fun. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yes. Do it now. Bless you, bless. We're going to do the little after party, too, there, which will be fun.

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Yeah, there's an after party. You guys going to be there? We're going to have hot cocoa. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Hot cocoa.

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Maybe some spiked hot cocoa. Yeah. Hot cocoa after. Come on down. We will be there.

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You're going to be there, right? Oh, yeah, absolutely. You better be there. After party's going to be Saturday night, I think. Oops. Friday night.

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Thursday night. Thursday night. Just kidding. Thursday night. It's the first night after the opening ceremonies.

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Absolutely. So anyway, come on down. It's going to be great. It's going to be the best thing you've ever been to in your life.

03:57

It'll be the best day of your life. And also go to ApologiaStudios .com. Become an

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All Access member. It's really important that you do that right now, and try to get people to become All Access members, because it's so important.

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Pretty much the most important thing you'll ever do in your life as well. And because what that does is it gives us support to keep these bright lights on, and keep everything rolling here in the machine of Apologia Studios.

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And all we want to do is save babies, rescue people, sinners, preach the gospel, build the kingdom, and laugh and drink some beer while we're doing it.

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Amen to that. It's important. So we wanted to bring our best buddy in the whole world on. Thank you. I've never been on this.

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Just kidding. What is it? Number three? Three. It's cool to be in the Provoke Studios. It's so different than the

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Apologia Radio. Isn't it? Yeah. It's like a completely different room. It's a different location. Yeah.

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Different table. Different state. It's more high end. Yeah. We're just more important. Yeah. We're just better than everybody.

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Especially, we're a lot better than Coltish. I'll tell you that. Yeah. Those poor guys. That's not her.

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Just kidding. We love you guys. They're like wiping the floor with us. But yeah. They're doing all right.

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So we love you so much. We wanted to bring you on the show and just kind of talk to you about who you are.

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Why do they call you the bear? Jeff? That's Jeff's fault. Because he always says that the first time he saw me, he felt like I was a bear.

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No. That's not what he said. I was on stage leading worship with my bass plume.

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Smacking the bass. And slapping the bass. Not smacking. It's going to be a weird show.

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Sorry. It's been a crazy afternoon. All right. Anyway. And I was barefoot. If you've ever seen me play bass on stage,

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I usually was not. Unless it was winter and I was wearing shoes. What a weirdo. You're just up there barefoot.

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My sandals always get caught in the cords. I'm just kidding. It was just easier. Anyways. And he said

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I look like a big giant bear on stage. And so that's how that came around. What would you do if you were in the wilderness and a bear tried to attack you?

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I'd say, hey bear. Hey bear. That's what they do on Alone.

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Would you try to fight the bear or bite the bear? No. You're not supposed to do that.

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They might try to smooch on me, though, thinking I was another bear. Yeah, because you are a bear. They might be like, well, wait a second.

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He's a little attractive. I mean, this is the quality show that we're making. You might be like, what are we listening to right now?

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No, definitely do not try to fight a bear. Yeah, you don't. Because they will win the fight every single time. That'd be terrifying.

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So I just wanted to kind of go back a little ways. This is year 41. And we wanted to hear your testimony.

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We know you grew up in a Christian home. We kind of wanted to talk to you about being in a Christian home and your early life and when you felt called to be a pastor and maybe talk about your grandpa and stuff.

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Thanks, man. So my great -grandparents on my mom's side were missionaries in Africa.

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And I've actually recently learned I even have more history than I knew. But for a long time,

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I knew that's where we could take it back to. And so if you're friends with me on Facebook, my

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Facebook banner thing is actually a picture of my great -grandparents. They're part of a group. There's a big banner that said evangelization of the world and this generation, partly because they were pre -millennials.

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But I won't hold that against them. But anyways, but it's cool. They went to Africa. My grandpa was born there.

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They had to come back because my great -grandfather actually had a brain tumor he ended up dying from.

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But my grandparents then went back to Africa, the Belgian Congo, as medical missionaries.

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And they literally built a hospital in the middle of the jungle and stuff. My mom was born there. She's truly

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African -American. Dual citizenship, I can say that. Did she speak the?

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No, she was three. They had to flee when she was three because of civil war. Really?

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Yep. So there's a lot of cool stories. How long were they there for? I want to say probably around 8 to 10 years.

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Wow. So she has two older siblings. Maybe it wasn't quite that long.

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Anyways, that's a good question. I don't know for sure what the total is, but yeah. She was born there.

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So your dad's a strong Christian. This is on your mom's side. Yeah, mom was a strong Christian.

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Her dad. And her grandparents, yeah. And then how far does it go back? Do you know? So on that side,

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I'm not totally sure. I know that so my great -grandparents, their parents would have migrated to the

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U .S. from Germany. So my mom's side is all German. Actually, where I was at this summer on my sabbatical was

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I didn't – this was so cool. I didn't even plan this. I rented a house there for us to – where my mom grew up in that area, and my brothers and sister and their kids and stuff came – or my sister.

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And I didn't even realize that the house I booked was literally like around the corner from the

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Zimmer farm, which was where my mom's family came and built a stinking farm, and the farm is still there and all that stuff.

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Wow. Yeah, it was really cool. So that whole area is all German. There's an old church there where a lot of my ancestors are buried and stuff.

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Wow. So that's all my mom's side. And then we recently learned on my dad's side, I was just – as far back as my dad knew, they were a bunch of drunks.

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Come to find out, I actually had a Presbyterian pastor somewhere down the line. And then there's an author,

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A .T. Pearson. You may have heard of him. I don't know. But I actually have a little book on the Holy Spirit from him that I got from my mom's dad, from my grandpa on that side.

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And come to find out, this guy was like a great -great -great -great uncle or something.

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Oh, dang. Wow. And he actually – it gets crazier because he actually – I think it was – if I remember correctly, it was

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Yale. There's actually like a theology department that's named after him there or something. And so his initials were

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A .T. Pearson. Come to find out, the A in the T is Arthur Tappan, and Arthur Tappan was an abolitionist, and he was named after this guy.

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Wow. Yeah, which was really cool. I had no idea. My brother recently found all this out. But even crazier is

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I think it was his son, if I remember correctly, or maybe he started – the mission organization that my great -grandparents went to Africa with was started by A .T.

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Pearson. Wow. And I had no clue. So both sides of my family were involved in this.

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Wow. What a trip. Yeah, isn't that nuts? And the turntables. How the turntables. And then my brother was doing all this research, and then we realized that it's most probable that they would have known each other and been in Africa at the same time.

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But nobody knew that. My grandparents didn't know that. It's kind of cool. So, yeah.

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You have a really interesting family history. It's kind of like Sharknado, where it's like it's cool, and then all of a sudden it's like, no, it's a

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Sharknado. Like it just keeps getting cooler. Just keeps getting cooler. Wow. The coolness elevates.

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Have you ever watched Sharknado? No, it's just like – Because it turns into, like, sharks, and then there's cows and dragons, so it just elevates.

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It's like unbelievable, unbelievable, super Sharknado. And your guys is just kind of like snakes on a plane.

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Exactly. Exactly right. On our mom's side, that's why we get along so well.

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We like beers and sausages because – German. Yeah, my mom's maiden name is

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Wagner. So your dad's side is the Scandinavian. Yeah, so my mom is all

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German. Zimmer and Krieger is my mom's side.

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And then my dad's side is Pearson and Wilkinson. So I basically tell everyone

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I'm 100 % Viking because Germans probably came from Vikings. And Swedish side is

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Pearson, so we know they came down out of Sweden and Viking. And then

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Wilkinson, I always – that's Welsh. I knew they came out of Wales. But when we were in Scotland, I did some research while I was there, and they had, like, all the family crests and stuff, and I was like, oh, look, there's a

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Wilkinson crest. And then I, like, started researching and come to find out they actually were

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Vikings that landed in Scotland and were there long enough that they kind of were absorbed into the

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MacDonald clan and then moved down into Wales. Wow, we're Welsh too.

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Did you know a fun, disturbing fact? Probably related. When the

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Vikings came into, like, Ireland and Scotland and Wales and they, like, pillaged the people.

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Yeah, they were really great, slaughtered. Well, that's when, like, the mixture of the

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Irish people or the Scottish people and the Welsh with the German or the Viking, that's when redheads kind of came in.

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That's where, like, the red hair. There you go. Yeah, that's your evil people. No souls.

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Come from wickedness. Wow. Didn't know that. So you never knew a time when you weren't in the church, right?

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No. I grew up in the church, was always there whenever it was open.

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So I said a prayer when I was four, remember it, remember kneeling beside my bed and not wanting to go to hell, you know, ask

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Jesus into my heart and everything. So I've never known anything different. I don't know if I understood the gospel then or not, you know, that's possible.

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But, yeah, was always at church, always loved being at church and grew up in the Northern Baptist Church, which is

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Southern Baptist with a heap of legalism on top. So kind of grew up very, not like Stephen Anderson, not that kind of legalism, but, you know,

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I'll just say that going to senior prom was a big deal.

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We had dancing at my wedding. I was the first grandkid to get married. Big deal. Big deal.

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But yeah. Yeah. Cool. Anyways. Yeah. So that's how I grew up and never known anything different.

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That's fascinating. It's so cool. I was just talking to somebody, I forgot their name, yesterday and just saying like how strong faithful Christian families like yours, you know, who we're trying to be create some of the most powerfully like successful people on the planet, you know, just strong Christian moms and dads.

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Just stay faithful. It's awesome. Yeah. It's just encouraging for us raising kids. You know, we didn't grow up in the church and then raising kids in the church to see like God's faithfulness in your life and you know, how that's played out.

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Yeah, totally. And I always, when we first started first playing to the church and stuff, like everyone knows

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Jeff's crazy testimony and, you know, so he'd tell his testimony and they'd be like, all right, they want to hear your testimony.

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And I'm like, you don't want to hear my testimony. It's boring. No, it's not. You know, like I was like, you know, like one day

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Jeff was like, stop acting like that. He's like, you don't know how many Christians are in the same boat as you that are encouraged by that, you know?

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And I was like, I never thought about that. And plus he's like, and we want our kids to have that testimony.

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And I was like, true. Yeah. And you go back and it's like your parents and grandparents, faithfulness.

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And then spring forth, like your, your upbringing. And, you know, so it's all a miraculous work of God, whether you're saved when you're four, you know, 24.

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True that. So grew up in the church and then you started playing ball football on the offensive line.

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No, sorry. Defense. Rugby. Oh, gosh, defensive line. Come on. Defensive line. You played the left out.

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Just kidding. You played. Defensive end. Defensive end for how many years? Well, I started playing in fourth grade and then played through two years of college.

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And then I tried two years of semi -pro. So 12 years total. So yeah.

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So semi -pro didn't go. Why didn't, did you hurt yourself? No, it was just, it was hard because with semi -pro, it's not like you're actually get paid or anything.

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But, um, so I was trying to work 60 hour job, you know, 50 to 60 hour weeks and then try to practice and do games.

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And yeah, that's rough. It was a lot. It was before I had kids, you know, it'd be impossible now, but, um, I gave it one last shot.

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It was just too much. How many times you've been knocked out playing ball? Never in football was in basketball. Oh, I thought you got concussions in football.

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No, I mean, I'm sure I've got, I'm sure I've had many, like many, not many, like little concussions.

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You get those brain stinger things. I've had plenty of those, but yeah, I got, in my senior year in basketball in high school,

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I got my head stepped on and knocked me out cold for 15 minutes. Yikes. That's a long time. So your, your kind of injuries were mainly necks, neck injury.

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Uh, no, I just have a bad neck now. Cause of ball. Cause of football. Yeah. Yeah. My injuries were all like my ankles.

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I had bad ankles. I have no ligaments left in my ankles. They're all balled up on the sides. You got

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MRIs. Oh no. I have ptoromal. So now like, is this muscle holding them together?

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So I've, I've had a number of times playing basketball, like rolled my ankle and it just, it's like the worst pain of your life.

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But literally it's because it goes, no, no, it's popped out, popped back in. And then I'm like, I'm like, ah, and then like I stand up and I'm like,

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Oh, that was weird. Yeah. That's not fun. It hurts. Okay.

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So you're playing ball, semi -pro, you stop, you start working construction. When did you feel like the internal call, you know,

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I want to pursue the past. So it was actually about the same time. I, the last, uh, time

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I played football. Um, so let's, I'll give you the short version, but basically, um, so I had come out here from the

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Chicago area. Uh, Cheryl and I had come out, to follow her mom for health reasons and stuff.

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And I got a job. I graduated from college with a degree in construction management. So I came out here, was working for a project manager.

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So that was in 2007. The whole first, all of 2007, like love that was really enjoying it.

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We got plugged in and at the church where Jeff and I met and, uh, we're doing youth group and I'd been doing youth ministry and all kinds of stuff in Indiana before we moved out here.

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And, uh, so just always loved doing ministry, but, um, so was here a year, everything was going great.

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And then 2008 hit and you were, were you here or you're in San Diego? No, I was in San Diego. You, I know you were in it.

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Did it, did it wreck San Diego too? Oh yeah, it did. I was working for my dad and then long story short, he was working for a, uh, uh, private college.

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It didn't really affect this college. So we, Oh yeah, yeah. Go on. That's right. Okay. So, um, so about that time, the economy crashes and the company

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I was working for, uh, brought in the mother company was from Minnesota. They had a branch out here.

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Um, I learned very quickly that things in construction industry don't work like they do in the

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Midwest. It's the, there's a lot slower pace and response time to things than what

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I was used to. And so the, the mother company just did not like the way things were going down.

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They started swapping out management. And so they brought in a new, uh, project manager that was above me and it was, the guy was just a jerk.

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Oh really? Just he, you know, he's coming in and just like I had built, it's been a whole year, like building relationships with my subs and had guys

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I trusted. And he came in just like a wrecking ball, just, you know, and it got to the point where he's like asking me to like, uh, do things that I was like,

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I don't think that's really ethically good. You know, like I remember like the breaking point for me was like,

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I had to email my, my best subs like from my private email and be like, Hey, I'm about to send you an email just so you know, like it's not coming from me.

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Like it was that level of things. So I went from a really loving my job to all of a sudden hating it.

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And you know, I'd spent all this time like helping out with this company. And then it was just like, I was another name and number.

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And so about that same time, um, God was calling me to, to ministry.

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So I remember just sitting there at my desk, just like thinking about what

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I was going to do at church and ministry like all day long, you know? So anyways, um, may of 2008, um,

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I had had enough. I saw the writing on the wall, basically like when people were finishing their projects, they were just letting them go.

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And I was like three weeks away from finishing this project I was on.

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So I was like, I'm going to start looking for another job. So I'm literally walking out the door to interview with this other company.

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And they're like, Hey, we need to talk to you. And I was like, yeah, what's up? And they're like, we're going to let you go. And I was like,

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I had a company truck. And so I was like, um, okay. So, uh, I lied.

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And I was like, I got, I'm on my way out the door to a doctor's appointment. Can I just bring the truck back tomorrow? And they're like, fine. So anyways,

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I went and interviewed at this other job. Didn't get that job, but, um, brought the truck back in and all that. So that was

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May, 2008. I got like a three month severance, which was nice. Um, S so this is really cool though, actually how

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God orchestrated this because, um, so. Cheryl and I were, we're leading like the youth worship band.

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Um, she sang, I was playing, you know, like smack in that base and, uh, and, uh, so our, uh, youth group worship band was going to do the worship for summer camp.

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And, oh, hi. Yes. Probably not. Oh, hi. Is that I'm assuming California. Probably forgot. It was north anyways.

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Uh, it's, it's like, uh, uh, east of Oxnard. So if you just go up to Oxnard and then you just go cut east anyways.

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Um, so I wasn't going to get to go because I had a job and I couldn't take a week off of work.

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Well, all of a sudden I have all kinds of time on my hands and, uh, you know, like I got laid off in May and like,

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I think the camp was in June. So anyways, it worked out really cool. And I was like, sweet. I made it to go. And Jeff was the camp speaker that week.

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So we like knew each other, like we'd met, but we hadn't really hung out or anything. And so anyways, in God's province, we got to spend the whole week together and, uh, very quickly realize like, oh, we have, we have the same desires, you know?

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So that was a cool week. Um, I ended up getting another job started in July of 2008 and, um, and was there one day shy of 90 days.

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So here's some more God's providence. So the, the project they had hired me for was a church addition, which to this day still, they like started it and then they never finished it.

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And, um, and so, I mean, this was, what is it? What year is it? It's 14 years ago.

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So, um, so I'm literally like at the point of this job, which

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I liked the company I enjoyed, but like, I'm sitting there with like nothing to do. I'm like asking like,

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Hey, you got something for me to do. And, uh, and so they bring me in. So, so one night

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I just couldn't sleep one night. I was like up all night. Like at this point, like I'm like full on committed to doing full time ministry.

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But like, how the heck is that going to happen? So I'm like, just praying to God one night, like I was up all night, couldn't sleep.

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And like, Lord, I might do this. I don't know how. So I go into work the next morning. This is one day shy of 90 days.

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I would, before I started getting benefits and they're like, Hey, uh, we really like you. You're really, you're doing a great job, but we can't afford to pay you.

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We gotta let you go. And I was like, well, cool. You know, I think they were like expecting me to like slug them or something.

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I was like, Oh, right on. Cool. You know, it's like, uh, so I got like going, I was like, well, there's my answer to that, you know?

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So I call up Jeff and I was like, Hey dude, I think he was, uh, I think he was at Disneyland.

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Surprise her. Um, and they like Disneyland a lot. Okay. Don't judge them.

25:06

I do too. So, um, this is before wokeness. Okay. Anyways. So, um,

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I was like, Hey, I got laid off again, you know? And he's like, I want to get back. Let's get together. So I am fully intended to tell him

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I want to do full -time ministry. I don't know how he fully intended to tell me. He asked me to start apology at Christian ministries with them.

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So they, he had already had all the, um, paperwork and everything done.

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And there was another guy that was supposed to be on the board with him, who bailed at the last minute. And so like literally just had to walk in and sign something.

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So we started apology at Christian ministries in October, 2008. Wow. Um, yeah.

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And then 2000, February, 2010, we ended up playing the church and then, but it was a good five years before I was full -time.

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Either of us were full -time, you know, and I was still doing construction stuff and what

25:58

I could to survive. yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's awesome. Cool. Um, so yeah, we maybe just wanted to pick your brain about a couple of things.

26:07

Maybe pick the brain of a pastor. Yeah. We should do a new little, what do they call it?

26:14

Segment. Pick the brains of the pasture. Um, you guys all got lots of brains.

26:21

So I got some questions. Do you have any? Oh yeah. And I know a lot of them because I spent a lot of time with you in a little room cracking jokes and, uh, taking care of this church.

26:33

But, um, what do you think it means to be a good pastor? Like, uh, a faithful pastor.

26:41

Um, that's funny. Cause this is like, were you listening to that interview I did yesterday? Uh, it was like the same questions.

26:48

Um, well, I, you know, I think we, we look to Christ as the example of a good shepherd.

26:56

Right. So he said, I know my sheep, they know, I know the voice, their voice, they know mine.

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And like the shepherd literally was the door to the sheep fold. Like you had to go through him to get to a sheep.

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So I think a good pastor, uh, besides having, you know, the ability to teach and fulfill the first Timothy qualifications, uh, they need to know their sheep.

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They need to be involved with their sheep. Um, they need to be willing to lay their lives down for the sheep and defend them, uh, discipline them if necessary.

27:29

Um, and, um, yeah, if you don't know your sheep, then you're not really a good pastor.

27:35

Yeah. I remember I was, uh, when I was for a while, just trying to seek mentorship from different pastors.

27:41

And one of the things the pastor told me is don't get too close to the sheep. He said, uh, they bite.

27:48

That's true. They do bite, but he was like, don't get too close to him. Don't build relationships. You shouldn't be friends with your people.

27:54

Um, just if there's an event, you just come in, kind of smile at people and leave. But that's a kind of a really, uh, an

28:00

American. Yeah. It's a master of leadership. But if you think about it, that's like in contradiction or it's antithetical to the biblical framework of a pastor.

28:08

Cause the sheep knows shepherd knows the sheep. Well, yeah. And you guys are going to be accountable for the souls of your sheep, you know?

28:15

So how, how is that possible? If you go up and yeah, I don't know that guy. Yeah, exactly.

28:20

Well, that's one of the reasons, I mean, I don't immediately just hate on something cause it's something different. You know, people, if it's anything different than what they're used to, they immediately just demonize it or hate it.

28:29

But that's why the, the kind of a simulcast churches where you're just kind of listening to a big screen.

28:35

It's like, how can that guy from that vantage point take care of the sheep that he doesn't even know about? You know, it's more of just, let's collect a huge amount of people so we could be a successful story than just take care of the sheep.

28:46

At that point is max headroom. Exactly. Right. And there's no, there's no accountability. There's no, yeah, nothing because you're just looking at a screen.

28:56

Yeah. You're not really fulfilling your duties, which is laying your life down, bringing the sheep in. Like Paul said, we don't only share the word, but we share our very lives.

29:05

It's hard to do that. You know, we know that cause that's what we do day in and day out. It's very costly for us and sacrificial, but it's just, if that's what it takes, it's what it takes.

29:13

Yeah. Cause if we're not epitomizing or becoming daily, more of a biblical pastor, what are we doing here?

29:19

You know what I mean? What do you think? Um, where do you think guys fall off a cliff? Where do you think are some bad examples of, of pastors or what's a bad pastor?

29:27

You asking for names? No, no names. We're already in enough trouble. Well, you know, and I know guys here locally,

29:35

I won't say names that, um, are kind of mega church pastors, guys that we had tried to do some stuff with in the past.

29:43

Um, that just, you know, they have a 20 minute sermon. That's all they do. They play golf, work on a 20 minute sermon and they don't interact with their flock.

29:53

They don't do counseling. They don't, they don't do any of that, you know? uh, and then they're just, it's like, what are you even doing?

30:01

Like, you know, you literally have the cushiest job on the face of the earth and that's just not, that's a bad example.

30:09

That's what a pastor should not be. Yeah, that's true. Just like, cause it's just kind of self -focused.

30:15

I'm just treating, you know, like Jesus talked about the hireling and the true shepherd, right? That's exactly what it is.

30:20

You know, you're just looking at it as, as a paycheck. I could care less about the people, but I actually,

30:26

I'll let you, cause I think this is what you're going to say, but, um, what's your favorite thing about being a pastor? Do you guys, uh, uh, man,

30:39

I mean, obviously there's just being used by God in so many ways is, you know, is, uh, an unending gift, you know, and, and just seeing

30:50

God work in intimate ways that most people don't get to see is really cool. I mean, it's definitely super hard at times, you know?

31:01

Yeah. Hold on. I'm going to ask you that question. Yeah. I mean, too, I think the number one thing, and it's almost like a supernatural thing in the heart is like, you love the people, like you love the kids, you love the families.

31:10

And then, you know, there's a lot of difficulties we'll talk about in a second, but it's awesome to see God move in like a heart, just one sheep, like in transformative ways.

31:19

Yeah. Like I can think of names of people that were just, knee deep in sin, deep in sin.

31:26

And then God just rescues and changes them. And that's my favorite thing is just to see the sheep really cared for.

31:32

But I, it's funny. I told Cheryl the other day, uh, for those of you that don't know, that's my wife. Um, there's a couple, you may know what

31:40

I'm talking about, that, you know, we did some counseling with for a while that was really struggling and we're really at odds at times.

31:47

And just recently, I've just noticed that two of them, just they're, they got three kids and like they're serving, and they just seem so happy.

31:54

And it's just like, man, like I see that. It's like, Oh, that blesses. Yeah, man. Isn't that awesome? Yeah. What is some of the most difficult things about being a pastor?

32:04

Tragedy. Uh, you know, we've had some hard, hard tragedies we've had to deal with that.

32:10

There's no, they just suck. There's no, there's no way around that. Yeah. Um, you know,

32:18

I don't, I think dealing with people's drama, it's just like, I'd rather deal with tragedy. Then like drama, you know what

32:25

I mean? Like, uh, cause tragedy, like just, it's, people can't, you can't help that things happen, you know,

32:31

God's sovereign over that. But like when people are just acting like idiots, it's like, yeah, when people start to abuse you or your time or your family or your friends, you know, like your loved ones, it's just like,

32:42

I, you know, that's where you want to get the rod. You talk about this team, the difference between the staff and the rod, you know, and the

32:48

Lord is my shepherd. So when he's got a staff and a rod, the rods used to break legs. You know, that's what that's for.

32:54

And it's got a knot on the end to knock out wolves, wolves, wolves, wolves.

33:02

Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, like my pastor told me so long ago, 25 years ago, 25 years ago,

33:08

I was almost 20. Nah, not 25, 20 years, 21 years ago. He says, hardest thing is when a sheep loves you one day and they hate you the next, or the sheep actually take their clothing off and they were wolf the whole time.

33:21

And so that's, you know, we know the hardest thing to do is like deal with internal conflict, like people that are doing good.

33:28

And then they just, yeah, they just dive into sin and they stay in that sin unrepentantly.

33:34

And then you have to go through church discipline, which is probably one of the most stressful things you got to do as a pastor.

33:40

How can, um, and this is kind of related. How can people be a blessing to their pastors where they're at?

33:46

You stole my question. Don't be dramatic. Um, we know, honestly, cause we've talked about this, like just tell your pastors that you love them and appreciate them.

33:58

And you're, you are awesome that you and Don both are like the shining stars of, no, I mean that cause you guys, it's very clear that you love and respect your pastors.

34:07

And there's people that like, like don't even call us pastor.

34:13

It's always like, Hey Zach, Hey Luke, Hey Jeff, you know? And then like, they just complain about stuff all the time.

34:18

And it was just like, it's like, bro, you've never even once said like, Hey, thanks for being a great guy.

34:24

Thanks for putting up with me. You know, it's just always like just nitpicking. Self -focused.

34:29

Yeah, exactly. So just let your pastors know that you, you're, you're grateful. Yeah. That's good. Go a long way.

34:35

Yeah. Yeah. Don't be, uh, complained to him all the time and don't have your own personal agenda that you want to be filled, fulfilled higher than the mission that the great commission that we're all supposed to be on.

34:46

Yeah. It's like, we're all supposed to be on one common mission, united, like linked arms. Let's accomplish it.

34:52

But if you just want to do your thing, you know, it's just so problematic to a pastor because so many people are like, let me just run to my pastor and he's got to be on board with what

34:59

I want to do. And we're not on board with what the, we're not trying to get people to do what we want to do.

35:04

Right. This is all about what the head of the church, the master of the church, Jesus has called us to do. And we're all supposed to be on board.

35:11

Yeah. And then I would just say to that, um, you know, figure out the principles of like biblical conflict resolution, right?

35:18

Rather than running to your pastors to fix all your problems, which we love. That's our life.

35:24

That's all we do is help the sheep. But, you know, you can move into the realm where you understand biblical principles and you can employ these things at home.

35:32

And as the, especially as the head of your own home, you are solving your own problems, you know, but again, we want, we love our sheep and we want to be there for them, helping them.

35:41

Yeah. I would say it's been like, utilize your pastors too, for what they are not like over, like you're saying, don't try to solve your problems in house.

35:49

But then when you need help and you need counsel, like you guys have blessed us personally, you too, you know, cause that's what you mainly do.

35:57

Uh, it is like, I feel like a supernatural thing that God gives you guys to oversee and to give counsel and wisdom.

36:05

And so it really has blessed our family tremendously when we have had our times and we have to come to you guys, you know? So I would say,

36:11

I think too, just for me personally, I've had that feeling of like, I don't want to bother.

36:18

They're busy. Um, you know, I'm sure they have better, bigger fish to fry. And so, but then, you know, as more time goes, it goes,

36:24

I'm like, we should have asked for help months back. Yeah. And so that's the balancing act. And we say it all the time. Like we were saying right now,

36:30

Hey, you should, as the head of your home, you should be able to solve problems utilizing biblical principles.

36:36

But in the other balancing, we don't want people to think we're too busy for the sheep because so many churches like the mega church complex or industry, they engender that because you can't talk to them.

36:46

And they, if you, if you can ever talk to, you have no accessibility, your pastor, you, that will breed like you're not important to me and I'm better or I've got better things to do.

36:55

We never would want to engender that because they are our priority. Exactly. So it's just a balance there.

37:00

And I think it also like just highlights the importance of a plurality of elders, because there's no way one man can take on all of that.

37:08

If you have a lot of people, you know, and so there's just so, so many benefits to having a plurality of.

37:14

Yeah, I am. And I won't get into this. I know it's extremely provocative, maybe for a different show, but I, we aren't provoked.

37:19

Yeah, we are. I wish you could zoom into your eyeballs. I really don't think the single pastor, church government is biblical.

37:31

No, I don't know this model. Exactly. Now we've got a situation where Wade is in Utah, but he's not a single pastor there.

37:38

He's we're welders with him holding him accountable. We talk with him frequently. Yeah. That's been important to us in the church plans we've done is that.

37:46

Yeah, there were, were that, you know, we're not necessarily that obviously the acting elders are every week, but we are elders of that church so that they're not alone in things and he's handling stuff.

38:00

Yeah. Maybe the operational, even though we've helped him out with operational aspect of it, but we're more of the overseeing, but yeah, you put a guy there and it's just him and he's not accountable to anybody.

38:10

People begin to do pastor worship, which is the worst thing for a church. And for him too, the worst thing you can do for anybody is smooch on their bottom cheeks, you know?

38:20

Graphic. Yeah. To be like the giver and the receiver, you know what

38:25

I mean? Like, you know, that's what we do. That's what the American church has done and it's just created such a toxic environment.

38:30

You can't do it. And plus you wear the guy out too. I mean, you can just imagine if it were only one of us here and we'd be dead within a couple of years because the load, you know what

38:40

I mean? Oh yeah. And you're, you're creating the load. What's that off of? No idea.

38:47

I was going to say, Oh wait, it's off of a Lord of the Rings. Remember? No. Remember when Samwise Gamgee is helping him at the, oh, share the load.

38:55

That's it. Share the load. I was going to say something, but I can't.

39:02

Oh, I was just saying, then you make an idol out of that guy and then you want him to give you what only God can give you.

39:08

And then he can't perform. And so that's when you see people turning like, I hate you.

39:14

Exactly. That's really 100%. Yeah. I've seen that a few times. Yeah. Because when you make an idol out of anybody, you'll soon understand they're not

39:22

God. They don't have his capability. And then you end up attacking him. It could be even your wife or anybody else.

39:28

That's why you turn on idols. A hundred percent of the time, every time we've had someone come in, like it's not even like, it's been a hundred percent of the time someone comes in and they're like,

39:38

Oh, they're the best pastor that ever lived. Then, you know, they just go all over Facebook and it's just like,

39:44

Oh boy, this one's going to be trouble. I feel a knife coming to my back. It's coming every single time.

39:50

We call them ticking time moms. It's just a matter of time. But okay.

39:56

It's kind of segwaying into, and I think maybe helpful for pastors. You know, we went through a really difficult start of the year.

40:02

It ebbs and flows like a roller coaster, right? Really tough. And we were just like, every single day was like tragedy stuff happening for two months, two months, like really tough.

40:14

And then we had, you know, thankfully God orchestrated our time with the seals that really, you know, that was all providential just to help us through that.

40:23

And to help us through with it, a mentality that we wanted to have, which is engendered in the military community, especially the seals, but also super biblical.

40:31

And it, it kind of based upon this frame, this phrasing that you came up with, get hard, stay hard.

40:40

But it was helpful for men in general, but mainly for the pastors. So can you tell us about this phrase you invented?

40:46

Yeah. Um, does he hates it just for the record? I usually just stick with the latter half, just stay hard, but I'll explain why.

40:55

So, you know, the we've, we've literally how many times, I mean, even the last month you've had some bunch of like every day, someone in your family, it's like throwing up or something.

41:08

And, and so like, it's just been like, stay hard, bro. Like that's been our motto.

41:13

And, you know, and the point is just like, suck it up buttercup, you know, like quit whining.

41:19

You don't faint in the day of adversity. Right. Act like a man. uh, and that's been huge for us because it's been awful.

41:28

And, uh, but you know, the idea is first you have to get there. You have to get hard first. You have to, you know, be hard against tragedy and trials and strife.

41:39

Um, you have to stand strong against that and then you have to stay there, you know, and that's the hard part.

41:45

So, yeah, it's basically not. I mean, that, that verse encapsulates everything.

41:50

It's don't faint in the day of adversity. I'm going to go through difficulty and as men difficulty makes us men.

41:58

And so we tell guys all the time, if you want to be a man of high caliber, really used by the Lord, maximized manhood is all about character and character is only formed in the cauldron of affliction and trials.

42:10

Yeah. That's a good quote. Did you just come up with this? Um, no, I don't know. I like that.

42:15

It's like a, like a witch with a broken block is correct. A couple of times a day. That was a really good quote.

42:21

Um, anyway, so it's through that fire, the refiners fire that we go through that. But I think what we do kind of as pastors is you're like, can this please stop?

42:30

Can we stop waking up? And then you get really, it really affects the way that you operate in the midst of it.

42:35

So we had gotten to the point where like, no, we want to embrace the suck, right? That's a part of it.

42:41

You M that's a military, another military, right? Yeah. It was in the Marines. You should know this.

42:46

I'm sorry. I have a mind of a 13 year old when you're down range, when you're down range, you're in, you're in the field, right?

42:54

You're in battle and you have to embrace it rather than just try to run from it. So if you, and it was like a shifting, especially when we talked to the guys, uh, you know, the, uh, seals,

43:04

I'm just going to embrace this. If we have to, we're going to deal with so many things. We're dealing with people attacking the church from the inside out, bring it on top of an attitude.

43:12

I'm going to rest of that. And then it just causes you to just relax in the difficulty, man up, suck it up.

43:19

So you can perform well for the people around you. Cause we can't fall over. What are we going to do? What are my wives and kids going to do?

43:25

What are our sheep going to do? What are they going to do? If the leaders faint in the David verse, it's going to trickle down and it's going to create a systemic havoc all throughout the church.

43:33

Right. So yeah, like the getting hard part is like, that's the refiners fire, like you're talking about.

43:39

And there's definitely a pandemic in the, in the church and our culture of, of young men that are nowhere near that.

43:48

When, when adversity hits, they just fold. Uh, the victim hood mentality is played a huge part in that.

43:54

And how many guys have we in the last couple of years that we met with where we're just like, just man up dude.

44:00

Like, you know, and then they just want to blame everything. They want to blame God. They want to blame their wives.

44:05

They want to blame their kids, whatever, you know, and they just refuse to own their own weaknesses and their own sins.

44:11

And it's like, no, we're not going to let you do that. Yeah. You know, you're going to own your, your struggles is your wife.

44:18

Perfect. No, we're going to help her, but like, nothing's going to, nothing's going to get fixed. If you don't get hard first, if you don't own your own things, you know, and, and face face adversity, uh, looking in the eyeballs.

44:33

And actually this is, this is cool. I, uh, he knows cause I'm working on a little side project. That's in kind of all this stuff, but, uh,

44:40

I forget where it's at now, but it was in, it was in Isaiah where there's a prophecy about, about Christ and about going through, you know, the trials and, and his accusers and all that.

44:50

And it like, basically says like, he looked him in the face and I never caught it before. And I was like, like,

44:56

I, I have no reason to whine and complain now. Like Chris looked at his accusers in the face.

45:02

I was like, what? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Bring it. Yeah. You know, it also says he said his face like a

45:07

Flint. Yeah. It's the same passage. Yeah. Yeah. That one. So he was just dialed in, dialed in and focused in it because you're, you're going to have this, this mentality of like,

45:16

I'm going to accept where God has put me. Cause he's placed me here. Everything works in conformity with the purpose as well as Ephesians.

45:23

And I'm just going to do well. I want to do well here. I want to do well at the duties that God has given me as a man.

45:28

I want to excel in each duty, profit protector, not profit. I always say profit priest, provider, protector.

45:34

And I'm going to like, I want to accept this challenge so I can perform well. Or you're just going to be like,

45:40

Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, woe is me. Oh gosh. Like you were saying, if it's everybody else's fault, then

45:45

I'm here. And if I wish I could have done this and go back in time. And that affects everything that you have to do with your life.

45:52

You know, I was talking to a guy and he was like, Hey, how are you doing? Oh, I'm doing well. And you know, I got this job and I really don't have to do anything.

45:59

And he was like, expecting me to say like, Oh, cool. But you're not, you know, cause that's the mentality.

46:05

It's easy. Yeah. It's it's, I just want this cushy life that has no challenges, no difficulty, but what does that ever amount to?

46:13

Does that amount to character development? Does that amount to accomplishing anything in life? It doesn't, but we are kind of conditioning, especially the younger generations.

46:21

These man, boys are, I'm just going to sit home and play games all day because not doing any type of hard work and facing challenges is what

46:30

I want to do. But then they never excel. You know, they never excel physically or mentally or anything.

46:36

So it's crucially important. And I would tell you as, when it comes to like, how can people bless us pastors and bless the church?

46:43

It's be the men that God has called you to be. If you would do that in your family unit, that would solve a whole lot of issues.

46:49

You know what I mean? And we love taking care of the sheep, but also we wouldn't get so in, you know, suffocated by issues that could have been dealt in the home.

46:57

And it frees us up to do other stuff, share the gospel, build, build, build, build, build stuff like that.

47:03

So, yeah, I've been listening to the rare jewel. By Jeremiah Burroughs.

47:09

Have you ever read that? Oh, it's a life changer. Nancy Wilson recommended it. And no, it's actually so profound, but it, and obviously he says this way more articulate than I'm going to even attempt, but it's just talking about, you know, being content through all circumstances in life and not just being content, but like what that looks like.

47:28

And, you know, he says, you know, you're gonna, you need to get to the point where you find honey in the rock.

47:33

So you find the goodness in the adversity and like, you know, when adversity comes, knowing that this may be the exact thing that your heart needs to be corrected by God.

47:45

So whatever, like perversion or sin you have in your heart, the trial that God has brought into your life may be that cure for that particular sin.

47:55

absolutely. Yeah. And so there's all these really amazing nuggets, but I would highly recommend reading that.

48:00

I'm like halfway through. Can you send it to me? Yep. Sweet. Zach and I like to use, we'd like to find like pop culture references for this, that like are built upon biblical principle.

48:13

And I, he knows what, he might know what I'm going to say. Cause I even use this with him. We like John Wayne a lot.

48:20

And, and especially old Rooster Cogburn. And so one of my favorite, my favorite scenes,

48:29

I can't, was it, did they do this in the, it was in the John Wayne one too, right? Not just in the little blackie at the end there, or was it the new one?

48:37

I don't think it was in the, it wasn't in the John Wayne one. Nope. It was in Jeff Bridges. Who's also one of my favorite actors.

48:43

Okay. So if you, if you've seen that, you've seen it, not Rooster Cogburn, but what's the name of the movie?

48:50

True grit. True grit. Oh, I saw that with dad a long time ago, but the old one, but anyway, no, the old one.

48:56

Okay. Well, they're both really good. I've only seen the old one. So I don't want to ruin it, but at the end, uh, what's her face?

49:07

The annoying little girl gets bit by a rattlesnake. And so Rooster picks her up and they hop on little blackie, which is her pony.

49:16

It's literally ponies is a grown man. And what's her name? I'm John. I'm like, I'm losing it here, Sarah.

49:22

Nope. Anyways. Um, oh wait, Maddie, Maddie, Maddie.

49:28

What was that? Gabe, the babe. Yeah, man. So, um, he grabs her, gets on little blackie and literally like,

49:36

I love that scene. And it's just like, it's like this montage through the night. He's like riding little blackie with her through the night to the point where literally, he literally rides the pony to death and the pony just collapses.

49:48

He just picks up the wall of our shoots in the head and then picks her up and just carries her the rest of the way. And it's like snowing.

49:53

It's all through the night and he doesn't stop until he gets her to like a cabin where she can get help and then she

49:59

She loses her arm, I think but she survived Wow, and I'm like, I love that as I probably like that is what yeah

50:04

Do not feign not feigning the David verse. He is that scene right there and I love it I guess we're the chills right now

50:10

Just push through until you accomplish what you need to do in that moment, which is save that little baby girl.

50:15

That was annoying girl Well, obviously you guys are talking like biblical manhood too but it does apply to women too and just being tough as moms and oh sure, you know in a feminine way, but like not

50:28

Not being wusses not being fanned apart Yeah adversity comes in a lot of times We're just like so creatures of comfort that we're just like, oh gosh

50:36

Here's another something to make me uncomfortable. But like really thinking about Oh God has sent this trial

50:42

And you have to remind me a lot like he's he's using it for a purpose and you're gonna walk out stronger because of it

50:49

Yeah, let me think about that Proverbs 31 lady. That'd be cool to go walk through that on the show, but she's tough as nails

50:54

Yeah, she's not like getting up in the morning Yeah, buying real estate and making stuff before anybody gets up staying up past when everybody's asleep

51:04

Yeah, that's being hard right there And all she's doing is accomplishing the task that God has given her with a good attitude and just a fighting spirit

51:11

Yeah, oh my gosh You know No, but it's like what like my flesh wants to do as soon as something else comes

51:19

I'm like, here we go, you know, yeah, cuz it's been a tough year. Like I feel like the whole Yeah, but that just makes this tough as pardon my

51:29

French hell Yeah, tough as hell for the next thing cuz yeah knows what's coming on 2023. Mm -hmm

51:35

I thought you're gonna say pardon my French tough as nails. I should have All right a couple more questions before you let you go what's your favorite food

51:46

I like pizza a lot I like tacos We're not gonna get into that and Donuts Donuts are my kryptonite.

51:58

Yeah donuts. I love Boston cream hands down. It's not even a competition.

52:04

Mine's a maple bar I do love me for but yeah Like if there's I always say this and it's the honest truth

52:09

Like I'm not lying. Like if there's a box of free donuts Available, you're taking it.

52:15

I'm not gonna just have one like if I built like this contraption over your bed That was full of like 150 pounds

52:22

I know I like a 500 pounds of Boston cream pies and like right in the middle and I pushed it and I'd like tipped Oh, I just killed him.

52:28

Would you hate me? I love it. I would be a good way for him to die What's your favorite animal a

52:38

Bear I guess Yes What's your favorite book outside of the

52:45

Bible mission of God by Joe Boone, it's a good one I knew you were gonna say who's your favorite preacher outside of Like the what

52:54

I didn't I don't know where I'm going outside of Jeff I Like Toby Sumter a lot

53:04

Yeah, we just finished his book that you recommended Kicked you in the teeth. Oh, yeah.

53:09

Good one. It's a no mere mortals. Yeah, that's a good one I mean, I like Doug Wilson a lot

53:16

Joe Boone favorite movie. Oh gosh Can we do John like I always say like we do

53:22

John Rose. I mean, I've Traditionally, I've always said Braveheart because it's just a classic great movie, but there's so many good movies

53:31

Favorite TV series. I don't even know how to answer that.

53:38

Well, how's on Perry? No, my girls like that. I do we love it I mean, I like I've always liked Walking Dead a lot, which is it's almost done

53:45

It's in its final a lot of people gave up on it years ago, but I've been committed It's it's in its last half of a season here soon

53:53

Stranger Things I mean stranger things is amazing. It's genres though. Yeah Yeah, it's hard to say.

54:01

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Cool Already anything else? No, thanks for coming on.

54:07

Thanks. We had to reschedule a number of times. So it's good to make it happen captain Yeah, I was good. Love picking your brain.

54:13

Yeah Go to reform con org do the things so we can do all the things we're gonna do there

54:21

We're gonna have a booth Live show artistic performance. Yeah some chicken fights fighting

54:30

You didn't want to say that one word, which is good Yeah, there's gonna be all sorts of great things roller coasters

54:36

On a roller coaster Gigantic slip -and -slide. Yeah The pastors are gonna slip inside.

54:43

Oh, no, that's blasphemous. I shouldn't say there's a celebrity deathmatch. Yeah, that's gonna be good

54:49

What's it like to have these guys as your pastors well now, you know, this is what it's like It's very hard to be serious at times.

54:56

I know that's my biggest fault. I mean I look every time I come up to Take communion you cross your eyes at me

55:06

My biggest fault is that I always make a joke at the wrong time because I just want to be funny and it's like dude someone just died and I'm like making a joke and it's like Sorry, I mean,

55:17

I think that's why we all three of us You can take the Viking at a Scandinavia, but you can't take the

55:24

Scandinavia. I don't know what that means You'll you always never mind. Yeah Hey, I think you're an excellent pastor.

55:31

I think you're an excellent pastor You're really the real deal and I appreciate that so hey, we hope this show was a blessing to you

55:38

We hope that you strive to serve under good pastors

55:45

Don't don't serve under bad ones And be a good sheep. It's super important.

55:50

All right, I'll be a bad one Thank you guys. Hopefully I wonder if you if you like us you can go to all these different areas

55:58

Yeah, I was gonna say if you like the show and you're gonna continue listening after this Which is the

56:03

Christmas miracle Hey like us on Facebook Instagram rate our podcast share it yeah, we got we always say this, but we got exciting stuff in the works and We're always encouraged by your

56:18

Pastor Wade Orsini on next week. It's speaking of talk to that guy. Oh my day like like Shaw day

56:27

Pastor Wade. All right. We love you go out there and provoke the heck out of people to love and good works