February 27, 2018 Show with Marie O’Toole on “Fractured Covenants: The Hidden Problem of Marital Abuse in the Church”

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February 28, 2018

February 27, 2018: Marie O’Toole, author & conference speaker, who will discuss: “FRACTURED COVENANTS: The Hidden Problem of MARITAL ABUSE in the CHURCH”

00:02: Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:08: Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors
00:15: Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today
00:23: Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron.
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00:50: And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions
00:56: Now, here's our host Chris Good afternoon
01:04: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com
01:14: This is Chris Arnton your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 27th day of February 2017 we have a very important and tragic
01:28: Subject that we are going to be discussing today It's one of those subjects where you're not going to have a lot of fun listening or perhaps
01:36: I'm not going to have a lot of fun Conducting it but it's a very necessary Program in this day and age, especially
01:44: Today we are going to be discussing fractured covenants the hidden problem of marital abuse in the church and Here for the very first time on iron sharpens iron radio to discuss this subject is
01:57: Marie O'Toole who's an author and conference speaker and She has written a book of that very same title fractured covenants the hidden problem of marital abuse in the church
02:09: It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron radio Marie O'Toole Thank you very much
02:17: Nice to talk to you. I'm gonna right away. I'm going to give our email address for our listeners who?
02:24: May wish to join us on the air with a question of their own It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
02:31: Chris Arnzen at gmail .com at ch r is a r n z e n at gmail .com
02:38: and Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence
02:46: If you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if the question involves a personal and private matter and I could readily understand
02:57: Even more so than your average Program here in iron sharpens iron radio art your average guest and theme
03:05: I can readily understand that there might be Quite a number of you who would prefer to remain anonymous
03:11: When you're sending in your questions so you can feel free that we will accept Your request if your question is about a personal and private matter well as I typically do with first -time guests
03:24: Maria would love for you to give a little bit about about your background the kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in if any and your testimony of the
03:35: Providential circumstances the Lord brought about in your life to draw you to himself and save you
03:42: Sure. Um, well when I was growing up, I was brought up Roman Catholic You probably not too hard to understand for the name like Ochoa Massachusetts.
03:55: Yeah My parents are Irish Catholics. And so I was in church with my two brothers.
04:02: We went to Mass every single Sunday CCD confirmation the whole nine yards
04:09: So I always did believe in God from childhood I always loved Jesus, of course in that tradition were taught a lot of what you might call extra biblical things
04:19: Praying the Rosary praying to Mary. I never really questioned that until I got into middle school
04:26: I went to parochial school and in those days in the 80s They were distributing
04:32: Bibles unlike in my parents generation and being kind of a nerd I used to read the
04:38: Bible when we had indoor recess or something and I would notice sort of inconsistencies like Jesus had brothers and sisters and you know things like that and I'd sort of debate with the nuns and So I wasn't completely on board with Roman Catholic doctrine when
04:55: I went to college I went to Syracuse University up in New York. I got in Involved with a group
05:02: Campus Crusade for Christ, which I'm sure you've heard of and that yeah, it's a great group
05:09: Really good discipleship and things and I got to be closer with staff people and I heard them
05:15: I remember very clearly one of them was talking with the other one of the other students
05:21: Oh, did you know Kirk Cameron is a Christian? He was a huge, you know star back in the late 80s early 90s
05:28: And I said to them, you know, I get the feeling that you're using the term Christian in a different way
05:33: I mean doesn't that just include anyone who's Catholic or Protestant and she said well, no, there's a bit more to it than that Why don't we get together sometime and talk about it?
05:42: And she did the staff person did talk to me in some depth that wasn't your typical
05:48: Four -point gospel presentation in 15 minutes now pray a prayer and you're saved She really did you a good job of thoroughly explaining the person and work of Jesus Christ to me and then
05:59: I learned more about the inerrancy of Scripture and So I did become a born -again Christian my sophomore year in college
06:05: For me, it wasn't as big of a leap as it would be say for someone who was brought up outside of any form of Christian faith or say for an atheist or something
06:16: But I had to sort of unlearn a lot of those dogmas that we were taught And that was really where it all started and so I got more involved in campus crusade
06:28: I went on I graduated after my third year. I did my bachelor's degree in three years
06:33: So about a year after becoming a Christian I went on a short -term missions trip to Bulgaria Which of course was just coming out of communism at that point and a lot of kids were flocking over to Eastern Europe But I also kind of had ulterior motives because I wanted to work career -wise in Eastern Europe So I brought my resume with me and landed a job with an
06:56: International Business Association. I had just turned 21 So I moved to Bulgaria. I wasn't there as a missionary or anything, but was going to a church
07:06: My pastor who I'm still in touch with to this day He's about 90 years old now was actually in prison under the communists during the early 80s
07:15: Wow Yeah, Christo Kulicev, John Piper quoted from him he's written like a million books supposedly he's retired
07:23: But you'd never really notice it. But anyway, very strong man of God. So I had good discipleship over there and then in 1995 which was about three and a half years almost four years after I went over I met someone got married and About You think
07:46: August to November three months after the wedding we moved back to Massachusetts Supposedly temporarily and we had a baby about a year after that and so I've been back in the
07:57: United States ever since Well You have written a book that we have already announced fractured covenants the hidden problem of maritable marital abuse in the church and obviously you have written this book for a reason and Since your last name has changed
08:21: I don't think it's a leap of logic to come to the conclusion that you were a victim of marital abuse and this is
08:28: The reason behind the writing of this book Can you tell us as much as you feel?
08:33: Comfortable telling us and telling us as much as you think is valuable for our listeners to know in regard to When this abuse began and what was the nature of the abuse?
08:46: sure Yeah, that obviously it's a sensitive subject when you're talking about abuse for anyone because on the one hand
08:53: You don't want to be confessing other people's sins on the other because of the way the church sort of en masse
09:01: Has reacted to women who are in destructive relationships, particularly marriages sort of sweeping it under the rug
09:08: It has become sort of important speak up about this and say look this is not
09:14: Christ like this is not complementarianism It's it's sinful and it's a distortion of the beauty of marriage
09:23: It's a distortion of the way God would have us treat one another in general terms in specific terms
09:32: My story is not particularly graphic We won't you know be having any there were no sensational details the abuse towards me was not physical in nature
09:44: I think that's kind of important because sometimes people will use the term domestic violence like when they're referring to me are you know to my testimony and I kind of cringe at that because I think of violence per se as being purely physical in nature right and you can be on you could be undermining the
10:02: Real victims of physical violence by by making everything violence
10:09: Right. I I wouldn't use that term. However abuse and this is one of the points that I made very clearly in the book
10:15: It's not only physical in nature. I was very much subject to psychological abuse emotional abuse unrelenting verbal abuse and It it actually as much as I hate to admit it
10:32: Escalated and became worse the second decade. I was married. We were in a conservative evangelical church and my explanation for that is
10:43: I was married to someone from a I guess you could call it a patriarchal society and I say that as a non -feminist
10:51: They should probably get that out right off the bat I am NOT by any means a knee -jerk feminist or that's just not a label
10:58: In fact, you use the phrase complementarian just a few moments ago and I'm assuming that's what you adhere to as a
11:06: Yes, and I made that point rather clearly in one of the earlier chapters of my book that I do subscribe to Complementarianism meaning that men and women are equal in the sight of God.
11:18: We do have different roles within the church church offices I do believe that scripture teaches women are not supposed to be
11:26: Pastoring churches, there's various verses in that that's really a conversation for another day but Some of the women that I quoted in my book have written other books who are egalitarians
11:38: Who see no problem with women preaching, but they're still very very strong advocates against this type of abuse and emotional abuse
11:47: I think what happens is when you have someone who maybe has a
11:54: Idol of power shall we say or has a very strong angry controlling personality who comes perhaps from a culture that justifies that more than in the
12:06: United States and then you meld that into a
12:13: Church environment where not just complementarianism, but full -blown
12:18: Patriarchal authoritarian Teaching is going on. It actually gives that person theological justification for what?
12:28: Everyone in the world would agree is abusive and I'm talking stripping you of your rights
12:35: Stripping you of any say in the family stripping you of any authority Being Treated essentially as one of the children, but the children maybe are also shaking in terror
12:50: As I said, I wasn't ever subjected to physical abuse But I've since learned like even from my children who are now teenagers two of them are grown
13:01: That we all had that same semi nauseous knots in our stomach
13:08: Every night when we'd hear dad's car pull into the driveway. I lived that for 20 years
13:14: It was like, oh my goodness. What kind of a mood is he going to be in today? Is he going to freeze me out?
13:20: I used to turn stonewalling, you know going for days at a time without speaking to me
13:26: And I didn't even know what I was in trouble for and then just exploding in these raging tirades
13:34: And then going to church on Sunday Acting like everything was fine This is why it becomes a little bit easier to hide it from the congregation because this is very typical of abusive men
13:45: They are one person at home and a completely different face in front of the congregation on Sunday That's very very common
13:56: So you're saying that not only your former husband But your father was basically the same type of abuser
14:05: No, I never mentioned my father well I'm sorry you when you were mentioned you were saying that you heard the car pulling up in the driveway and you're oh
14:14: No, yes, I'm talking about in my former marriage. Oh, okay for I don't know how I everyone was Yeah, no, no.
14:20: No, I referred to dad because what I'm saying is my children had that same anxiety. Oh, I'm sorry same
14:26: Yeah, my pit the pit of their stomach was in knots
14:33: Yeah, well I can I can imagine from what you've just already said now Your former husband.
14:39: I'm assuming from what you just said. It was also not a Originally from the
14:45: United States. Oh No, we met in Bulgaria in the fall of 94 and he
14:55: A long story short actually short story shorter. We got engaged after six weeks he was some practically the first guy that ever paid any attention to me and Sort of loved
15:08: Bob to me. Everything seemed very nice a little bit controlling, but I didn't see really the handwriting on the wall and We decided to come as I said temporarily they were still having energy cuts in Bulgaria at that time and the government was a mess and He didn't want to you know have
15:31: Us go through that, you know the power rationing I was standing in line all the time for milk as it was and we just thought that it would be a lot easier to Come back here for a while earn some money.
15:42: And besides that I didn't want to have a baby in a Bulgarian hospital So we thought that we would be here for at least a year and Almost as soon as we got to the
15:51: United States He started to become much more of an angry person and the difficulties of being like a non -english -speaking
15:58: Immigrant with a master's degree. I don't blame him for being stressed out because he faced a lot of challenges
16:06: You know working a blue -collar job pretty much the first ten years We were married and then going to school at night.
16:13: He got a second degree here. That was very difficult You know and the challenges of learning the language and all of that I'm not saying it was easy but what did happen was it embittered him even more and He was just very unhappy with me from day one and I would internalize that And think there must be something wrong with me.
16:37: I've got to be better. I've got to be better. I've got to be better so I Really rededicated my life to God in about 2002 2001
16:47: Somewhere around the time. I became a parent a little after that I really wanted our children to grow up in a
16:55: Christian home So I got more serious about my own walk with God and I started taking our youngest
17:02: Excuse me our oldest when she was in preschool Taking her to Sunday school Bringing them to church and so on and then about ten years after that we started going to a more conservative church
17:15: So and where was your husband? not only spiritually, but theologically and In relation to the church as well.
17:24: Where was he at at that point? Well, he was not a Christian when I met him.
17:29: I he claims to be a Christian now. I'm not going to touch that Because I can't judge another person's salvation he may he may in fact be saved
17:39: But I just don't understand how someone could have that much bitterness and that much hatred in himself towards me especially but towards anyone and Really have the
17:50: Holy Spirit indwelling him but going back then. No, he wasn't he didn't know anything about the gospel because he was raised under communism and And He was never brought up in any kind of religion.
18:03: In fact, his father is a member of the party So pretty much everyone in his family was atheist didn't have a problem if he wanted to go into a church or something, but he
18:14: Found a Bible at some point in the late 80s I think when he was in the army and did believe in God some semblance of God didn't know him personally
18:25: He came to church with me. I think for the first time when 21 year old daughter was maybe five
18:34: It was the Congregationalist Church UCC. So it was sort of theology light if you will but he was able to hear that and understand it a little bit better and we watched the
18:46: Jesus movie once and He slowly it wasn't like he prayed a prayer one day or can pinpoint a moment of salvation
18:55: He would explain it that way, but he slowly came to faith in Christ according to him so I won't dismiss that and then
19:06: Later when we started going to the Conservative Church a few years after that He attended a
19:12: Bible study for the first time. So he's actually learned a lot over the years so I'm also
19:21: Assuming and I may be assuming incorrectly. I may have missed something but it seems that Since you said that you rededicated your life to Christ when you began having children
19:32: That you must have been at least a professing Christian when you met and married an unbeliever
19:40: Yes, I had as I said, I became a born -again Christian my sophomore year of college
19:46: So I was 19. I met my former husband and married him. I think I was 23 and What was going what was going through your mind when knowing that you had at least a profession of Christian faith that you started a
20:05: Dating or romantic relationship of some kind with an unbeliever. What was the Mindset that you had at that time.
20:12: Did you really consciously? Feel as if you were rebelling against God or what was this state of mind that you had?
20:19: I knew it was wrong, but I did it anyway because I wanted someone to love me Basically and to add to that as you probably know for my first book
20:28: I had an eating disorder throughout my teens and 20s, which I hid so I was actually not walking with God at that point
20:37: It was for a number of years. I felt pretty far away from God. Yes. I have met quite a number of Christian women sadly most of them divorced because They believed that they could change their boyfriends which later became their husband they
20:58: They seem to even enjoy the mission that they were on thinking that That this man loved them so much that he would change and even come to faith in Christ Because of their relationship and sadly that didn't happen.
21:15: In fact, I even know of one situation where Very precious
21:21: Christian woman who was dating her husband before she was a believer
21:26: She became a Christian during their Dating relationship and broke off with him saying that if this goes any further
21:35: And I want to be married. Obviously, I cannot marry an unbeliever And unfortunately this man faked a conversion was baptized and told her on her honeymoon
21:46: Guess what? I made it all up I'm not really a Christian and then later that ended tragically in divorce because the husband was unrepentant serial adulterer, he was a rock musician not not a famous one, but He played in clubs and so forth and he was just a serial adulterer and had no no interest in And repenting of it so that tragically ended in and that so yeah
22:12: That's so tragic and it happens all the time because we're emotional beings by nature and you know
22:18: When those emotions take over you're not thinking with reason, you know, you don't want to hear it
22:25: And so I looked like I mentioned the controlling thing sort of looked the other way well, maybe
22:31: I am so weak and You know need guidance or need help and you know that kind of went on for years as well, even though I felt
22:40: Dependent, you know, what am I going to be without a man? Well, you could never do this.
22:45: You could never do that. You're I don't think he ever directly said that I was hopeless or helpless or useless, but I Had a general feeling of incompetency like well, you can't really do that So I came even more like during my marriage thinking
23:02: I was totally dependent on him Silly example, but just a few months ago.
23:08: I bought a nightstand at Walmart brought it home read the directions pulled out my screwdriver and assembled it myself and I felt
23:17: Ridiculously proud of myself that I was able to assemble a piece of furniture Because it's like little things like that that in my marriage.
23:25: It was like well do it, you know You don't know how to do that or or this It's silly, but you build up a dependency.
23:33: I never have those feelings of pride because I never assemble anything correctly And forgive me if you already said this but at least to reiterate in the event that Anybody listening has tuned in late
23:57: When did you have red lights going off in your mind because of at least signs of Abuse in your relationship.
24:08: Did these occur in your dating relationship before you even met were married? Not really.
24:14: No, it was really after we came to the u .s And the anger started and the constant criticism started coming to the surface
24:24: But I never back in the 90s would have put the term abuse on it because I felt that I deserved it
24:30: I felt well, he's more intelligent than me. So if he says I screwed up again, I must have screwed up I mean things like um,
24:37: I used to when we were first married I waitress and I did not drive at that point didn't have a car didn't drive
24:45: I was working nightshifts mostly at the restaurant. He was out of town on a business trip
24:51: Got back. I'm coming in from my shift almost at midnight. I think the bartender drove me home.
24:57: I don't remember he was Furious with me because the fridge was almost empty and he told me you didn't think of me at all
25:05: You're a selfish selfish person. You don't care about me and I felt horrible about that but when
25:12: I look back and there's so many many many many examples of that in my marriage that at the time
25:17: I Felt like the most horrible Terrible person. I'm an awful wife.
25:23: I don't even deserve him. But looking back in Retrospect it was like No, I was doing everything
25:31: I could have I Could not possibly have gotten to the grocery store unless I had, you know taken the taxi or something outside of my working hours, so it was sort of Um After enduring so much of that years later
25:49: Long after becoming more emotionally healthy, I guess you could say I started seeing this
25:55: Happening more and more even after he became a professing Christian and thinking I don't deserve this
26:01: This is not right and then seeing it directed towards children This is abusive
26:07: But it took me years before I was even willing to let myself put that label on it because that's a frightening when you are a woman college educated or not, but you're you've got four kids at home and Much not all of our marriage, but maybe the first ten or so years
26:26: Well when I had small children at home put it that way there were years where I was only working part -time
26:32: So I wouldn't have been able to survive on my own income So if you even allow for the fact that you're in an abusive marriage now
26:38: You have to come face to face to the fact that you're in trouble you're trapped So you kind of convince yourself, especially if you're a
26:47: Christian Well, it's not really abuse if I pray hard enough like they tell me in Bible study
26:52: He'll change maybe if I just try harder and we read all of those books that are directed at us on being good submissive wives and we try and we try and we try but the
27:06: The smashing down and the You must submit that sort of pressure even when you're submitting to the point of being a doormat just gets worse and worse so it was sort of a
27:20: Gradual coming on of the lights. I mean things started to get out of hand by about 2013 2014
27:29: But by that point I knew very well. I was in an abusive marriage It just became a question of what are you going to do about that?
27:36: And it's horrifically scary I mean, it's it's scary being in an abusive marriage.
27:42: It's also scary Ending it Especially when you've already done the
27:47: Christian counseling and maybe things will get a little bit better for a while And then they get a whole lot worse now where the
27:57: The emotionally abusive and verbally abusive Statements and language ever threats of violence
28:08: No No and we actually we we do have a listener question and I and what
28:16: I'll do is I will read it to you and Then when we come back from the break you could respond to it be
28:24: BB and Cumberland County, Pennsylvania says I Can truly sympathize with your guests experiences and I do not want her to misunderstand me and think that I am being holier -than -thou or anything like that but when you are
28:44: Strictly abused in a verbal and emotional sense Cannot can that not become a very subjective thing.
28:53: There are Scores of women out there that may think that a woman who is under the authority of her husband who truly is just using biblical concepts in regard to the authority that he holds in the home a
29:12: Woman who has been raised perhaps in a more feminist background may wrongly think those things are emotionally
29:20: Abusive. Can you please clarify some of this? Matter that confuses me.
29:26: That's BB and Cumberland County, Pennsylvania We'll have you answer that when we return from the break if anybody else would like to join us on the air
29:34: We do have some other people already in line waiting to have you answer their questions
29:39: But if anybody would else would like to join them our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
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34:30: Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen If you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is
34:37: Marie O'Toole she's an author and conference speaker and she's addressing her book fractured covenants the hidden problem of marital abuse in the church
34:46: If you'd like to join us on the air with a question Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
34:51: and give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if you have a personal and private matter and basically
35:02: Marie our guest or should I say our listener before the break of BB from Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Was saying that emotional abuse can be a very subjective thing and some women might think that a godly man exercising his duty as a leader in the home might be even viewed as Emotionally abusive by a woman who has more feminist
35:27: Tendencies and or perhaps just from that kind of a background. It may be a culture shock for her If you could like be more
35:33: I guess BB wants you to just clarify a little bit more how What you are saying should not be viewed in that light that it's just a matter of opinion type of a thing and So, right, um,
35:48: I understand I think I understand her question very well First of all, I will start out by saying that Abuse emotional abuse per se is not subjective.
35:58: I can understand her asking that and I think that part of her question perhaps comes out of some of her teaching that Very much downplays the reality of emotional abuse and I'll get into what that really is and what it isn't in a second just To give you one example and this is a direct quote from a new
36:20: FedEx counselor a very well -known new FedEx counselor I trained directly under who said there is no such thing as emotional abuse because emotions cannot be abused
36:30: They deny that it even exists And in fact emotional abuse can be even more serious than physical
36:38: Because of the lasting wounds that it leaves on your soul. It destroys your self -image
36:43: It destroys it can eat. I won't say it destroys, but it very Detrimentally affects your relationship with God because if you're being that mistreated and that Contempt you with civil way you begin to see well if your husband represents
36:59: God How could God possibly love me if my own husband has nothing but contempt for me and disgust as far as husbands being the spiritual leader of the household and Fulfilling their godly
37:14: Responsibilities and leading and all of that. Yep. I vote. Yes That's exactly what they're supposed to be doing, but they're also supposed to be reflecting
37:23: Christ now if we look at the Bible the Bible talks about ragers and revilers and They don't have the verse in front of me
37:33: But Paul I believe it's in first Corinthians is warning the church at Corinth not to have fellowship with these men
37:41: Raging reviling someone and reviling Reviling encompasses a lot of unedifying speech putting not only the wife down, but the children down attacking their character
37:55: Falsely accusing them of things Alluding that they are someone worthless
38:02: That they have some sort of terrible character defect in doing it in a very not
38:09: Constructive criticism way, but very destructive anger where they are losing control sometimes even throwing things
38:17: This is not being a spiritual head of household. This is abuse and Usually when we use the term we're thinking of it being purely physical, but abuse is any kind of mistreatment
38:30: That's attacking another person who was made in the image of God and that is a very very serious sense according to Scripture For two reasons one.
38:41: I just mentioned we human beings are created in the image of God, but secondly abuse itself or Trying having this craving for control over another person so badly that you're willing to sin against them in order to get it that's motivated by selfishness and it always results in damage and destruction and For whatever reason someone is abusing another and again.
39:06: I'm talking verbally emotionally for the purpose of this discussion This this is what it underlies all of mistreatment.
39:15: It's selfishness it's wanting to have that control craving for control craving for power and Demeaning the others.
39:24: This is the opposite of what Christ tells husbands to be to their wives and It destroys them it destroys you
39:33: Emotionally it destroys you spiritually and it destroys you psychologically yeah, well,
39:39: I know that the 2nd Timothy 3 warns that men will be revilers and lovers of money and other things and in 1st
39:51: Corinthians 6 we have Revilers being listed among the other sins that if you're guilty of them, you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven
40:00: So it is obviously a very very serious sin Let me let me give you an example
40:09: My dad who is now with the Lord he Was not somebody who
40:15: I would say was an unrepentant ongoing Emotionally abusive person with my mom or toward my mom, but he you know was just like any sinner he was he could be very annoying and he
40:32: What was very restrictive of allowing her freedom to decorate the home the way she wanted to decorate it and things like that but that was not like the the ongoing
40:43: Dominant character that he demonstrated. I mean there are obviously going to be moments and perhaps even periods and perhaps even long periods where a spouse is abusing that Area of life with with their loved one, but When does it in your opinion and of course?
41:07: Hopefully it will be a biblically guided one. What what is the the line that is crossed when a
41:14: Man, and of course as you I'm sure would admit there are women that emotionally abuse their husbands and even physically
41:21: Even physically physically abuse their their husbands there because there are there are some men and in fact
41:27: There are many men who have even if they're not Christian. They have an old -fashioned standard of Chivalry where even if a woman is slapping him and hitting him with objects
41:40: He's not going to physically retaliate. Mm -hmm. And so you have known men and that's efficient. Yeah, right
41:45: But so where does this become something where you think? Is draws the line where a woman can rightfully?
41:55: Leave the home and and even pursue proceedings of divorce Well, it all goes right back to the biblical principle of repentance
42:04: When you have that we're talking long -term here We're not talking about the bride who's been married maybe six months and they run into difficulties
42:14: And maybe they could benefit from a little couples counseling when you've had these patterns of behavior for so long that That they are escalating and the person the abuser is now justifying what he is doing and saying
42:33: Well, I have to do that because I am the head of household or blaming other people for his anger well,
42:39: I wouldn't have to do that if you didn't make me so angry seeking for the problem to be outside himself and Completely unwilling to look at his own heart issues.
42:50: However deep that may be Saying as my former husband said, you know slapping his fist on the table for emphasis
42:57: That's the way I am and I'm not going to change and you just have to accept it But then ultimately even when confronted even with a biblical counselor ongoing counseling in the room refusing to repent that really is
43:14: Where the rubber meets the road because we know from Scripture that there's no sin that is so big.
43:20: It can't be forgiven We also know that God can change anyone. I mean Saul on his way to Damascus is the perfect example
43:28: Literally knocked right off his high horse, right? And so they they sort of in counseling will hold that up.
43:35: Well sure anyone can be changed Absolutely. Anyone can be changed, but when a person
43:42: Steadfastly and belligerently Refuses to see that they are an abuser.
43:48: They won't use that term They won't see anything wrong with their blatantly sinful activity
43:54: They're horrible horrible things that they will say and they continue to defend that and continue to defend that and continue to defend that while going to church on Sunday no less and it never brings them to repentance then
44:08: Based on what we see in Scripture about you know Refusing to love one another the
44:14: I do get into in one of the chapters God's provision for wives No one can stay in that situation that is a breaking of the marriage covenant and Not to bring in a tangential subject
44:27: The children now are at risk because they're being even besides the fact that they're usually being abused themselves
44:35: At least verbally if not always physically they're being exposed now to a very unhealthy very unbiblical not
44:43: God -honoring Pattern of marriage so the girls grow up thinking that that's the way a husband is to treat his wife the boys grow up thinking that's how they're going to treat their future wives and the cycle just repeats itself and someone has to stand up and confront that sin and When it doesn't end in repentance
45:06: That marriage covenant has been destroyed Well, thank you, by the way,
45:11: I think I forgot to mention that BB from Cumberland County, Pennsylvania You have won a free copy of fractured covenants the hidden problem of marital abuse in the church by our guest
45:22: Marie O'Toole So, please make sure we have your full mailing address. We have
45:27: Joe in Slovenia And he says dear brother Chris and sister Marie.
45:32: Thank you for as usual taking on the difficult topics with truth and love is Marital abuse ever biblical grounds for divorce if so, what specific biblical passages specifically teach this in context without eisegesis and hermeneutical
45:50: Gymnastics, maybe the most faithful Handling of the whole scripture would allow for separation with a view toward reconciliation with the context of repentance discipleship recovery and Ongoing accountability and counseling if not, are we not in effect condoning?
46:08: No fault divorce because anyone can subjectively claim abuse as the grounds for getting out of a difficult marriage
46:21: D so do you have any response to Joe and Slovenia about that? Oh First of all, hi
46:27: Joe Slovenia. I haven't quite made it to that part of the former Yugoslavia yet But I know it's a beautiful country.
46:33: So that's really cool to know that we have guests listening in Europe Yeah, I mean it's a pastor that I used to know used to say
46:43: Be careful about basing a doctrine on one verse That's if you know the synthetic principle of hermeneutics, you cannot just take one
46:53: Verse out of Matthew which every we know they love to use that Jesus said to the
47:00: Pharisees, I don't have my Bible in front of me, but I don't have my reading glasses either So I'm not I don't recall you can help me out
47:06: Chris about the verse if he divorces his wife for any reason other than adultery causing her to be unfaithful and He first of all was speaking to the men in protection of the women because of the way they were being treated in first century
47:22: Judea, I mean essentially they were just taking advantage of the Mosaic marriage code which did allow for divorce under certain circumstances
47:30: But they were abusing it to the point where they could literally just dump their wives for any reason and they had no recourse
47:38: They were out on the street, of course Practically as prostitutes not to put too fine a point on it.
47:46: So this was the whole context if he Read I Quoted it in my book when abuse is worse than divorce
47:58: God's protection of women by pastor looked l -u -g -t herb looked
48:04: Gets into that passage in the Old Testament in some depth and shows the principle of protection there there were even to Wives who were from war bounty basically slave wives the
48:21: Hebraic code Required a certain amount of protection for them. They had to be provided with food with clothes
48:29: With either conjugal visits or affection, however, you translate that birth
48:35: And if the husband was not providing those things that was a violation of the marriage covenant from the
48:42: New Testament you're essentially making an argument from silence because You if you look at that one verse in Matthew and say, okay
48:53: Well, unless there's adultery going on No one can ever get a divorce But then
48:58: Paul continues talking about grounds for where divorce may be acceptable
49:03: He talked about the what they call the abandonment cloth and first Corinthians Thank You first Corinthians 7 and You know all of the other places in Scripture where men are commanded to love their wives
49:18: It wasn't a suggestion. That was the covenant, but then another interesting point is you have
49:25: Some divorced people in Scripture. I'm thinking at the moment of the woman at the well
49:30: Who had been divorced five times and we don't know for what reason No one ever claimed that she was being abused.
49:38: But if there's divorces now invalid and You can't recognize that if some churches refuse to why didn't
49:47: Jesus send her back to reconcile with one of her previous husbands? we're
49:53: I've quoted a number of scriptures throughout the book where God takes abuse mistreatment, especially of those weaker than oneself very very seriously
50:06: So to justify okay. Well now I'm married and So that means
50:11: I'm in charge and I can treat this person any way I want That was not only not God's design for marriage.
50:17: That's not permissible in Scripture Well, thank you Joe in Slovenia and you have also won a free copy of fractured covenants the hidden problem of marital abuse in The church and thank you for providing an
50:30: American address where your daughter lives in, Georgia Where we will ship that book to her and she can let you know when it arrives keep listening there in Slovenia and Keep spreading the word about iron sharpens iron radio
50:46: You say that there is This is actually right in the outset of the book a silent 50 % specifically, which what are you who are you referring to who is
51:04: Silent as far as that 50 % and what are they silent about? Right That I was using sort of hyperbole.
51:13: I was referring to women who We know I quoted the verse from 1st
51:18: Corinthians at the beginning of the chapter The women are to keep silent in the churches for they are not permitted to speak but are to subject themselves just as the law also says 1st
51:28: Corinthians 1434 and What I was doing in that chapter is laying out how certain teachings certain scriptures like that one can be used and And Essentially silencing women.
51:45: I'm not talking about again teaching from the pulpit But to make us somehow lesser than to take away our voice figuratively speaking
51:56: And this is a perfect example of that if a woman who is in an abusive marriage
52:02: Speaks up in a conservative church in the United States She will be silenced more often than not there are a few pastors who are willing to Validate that who have spoken up about it publicly and we are more aware of this being a problem but I use that verse to show how taking that literally has sort of subjugated women to a second -class status if you will and We have to go to our midway break right now
52:31: This is our elongated break because grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Requires of us a 12 -minute break between our two hours
52:40: So I would ask of you not only to write down the contact information and all the details of our advertisers
52:48: Of course, I don't want you to overlook those Advertisers who keep this program on the air through their advertising dollars, but also take this time to send in questions
52:57: We already have a couple of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered But if anybody else would like to join us with a question, our email address is
53:05: Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence and that is if you live out to the
53:19: USA and Please as I've said before only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter
53:28: So don't go away God willing we'll be back with our guest Marie O'Toole and our discussion of fractured covenants
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01:10:44: That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line We are now back with our guest today
01:10:51: Marie O'Toole she will be with us for another hour or so and we are discussing her book fractured covenants the hidden problem of marital
01:11:00: Abuse in the church and our email address for with questions is
01:11:05: Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Before I go to any more listener questions
01:11:12: Marie Why do Christian women stay in destructive relationships even before they're married and then they enter into Marriages at on occasion not you according to what you have told us
01:11:24: But many women even enter into marriages knowing that they are going to be abused
01:11:30: Mm -hmm. Well, I know that sometimes it's if they've come out of an abusive family that Women are more girls are more susceptible to marrying someone who is abusive
01:11:46: So that's one factor. I think very commonly. They don't see it coming before they're married
01:11:52: I certainly didn't but there is a Strong especially if they're dating non -christians and they're
01:11:58: Christians themselves The emotional connection which we talked about earlier Just a desire to be loved and you know desperately thinking well
01:12:08: Maybe this person will love me and I know I'll be provided for so at least I'll be safe I won't have to worry about that maybe
01:12:17: Sort of a craving to be taken care of and then of course the whole dynamic changes Once you are actually married, and of course, we do know that marriage is for life the
01:12:28: Covenant assuming it's not broken and there is I Don't want to use the word pressure because that sounds negative
01:12:38: But the upholding of marriage is an institution is much more sacred in the church than it is in secular society
01:12:45: I think that that's a fair statement and there's very good reason for that. That's an institution given by God So they want to uphold that and we want to obey
01:12:54: God and we want to honor God and we want to be the best Wives that we can be so when things get completely out of hand and it is not, you know
01:13:03: It's like I've made this point before There's a difference between a disappointing marriage and a destructive marriage and when it is a full -scale
01:13:11: Abusive marriage and they're in trouble. Sometimes they will go to the church and seek help but don't really get it
01:13:18: So they're pretty much stuck There's a tremendous stigma in evangelical culture of being the one to stand up and say no
01:13:27: I'm not taking this anymore, even where physical abuse is present Women leaving abusive marriages are simply seen as pariahs very often
01:13:35: So that peer pressure of a sort of a sanctified peer pressure I might call it sometimes keeps women in not just struggling marriages
01:13:45: But completely unhealthy marriages where things are just getting worse and worse So that's where they would stay after marriage but entering into it
01:13:54: There could be a whole bunch of different factors for that. Sometimes childhood conditioning or just naivete naive and not seeing
01:14:04: That their their future husband may have an anger problem or maybe has a controlling personality and they just don't know any better Well, let's go to another listener question
01:14:17: Let's see. We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York who asks
01:14:25: How much? involvement did your local elders have in the situation of your husband's emotional abuse and Did they remain in constant involvement throughout the whole problem?
01:14:39: And what was their? Direction towards you and their counsel in regard to divorce
01:14:45: Um, that's a pretty tough one because Unfortunately, their involvement was not helpful at all
01:14:57: What happened was we I sort of have to back up to 2014 when things had gotten really out of hand and we had gone to a certified new
01:15:10: FedEx counselor for Want to say it's about six months. It might have been a little bit less and things
01:15:18: Seemed to get a little bit better behavior -wise for a while and then they got a whole lot worse and it just escalated for two
01:15:25: Years and just just for just for clarification for our listeners who are totally unfamiliar with the term new
01:15:30: FedEx counseling Which I think Jay Adams coined that phrase if I'm not mistaken, correct, but that's referring to Holy Spirit Breathed teaching which you can only find in the scriptures.
01:15:41: Is that where that? That is that the basis more to do a new fatale to confront to Convict it's very much focused on confronting sin
01:15:55: Yes, it is exclusively biblical in the sense that they do not use any form of outside psychology or Any secular therapy can that's completely
01:16:07: Issued by new FedEx biblical counseling as opposed to the more mainstream term
01:16:13: Christian counseling Which may be integrationist it may incorporate some forms of clinical or behavioral psychology
01:16:21: But new FedEx counseling does not So that's okay. Well, we're going to counsel from the scriptures
01:16:26: Okay, we agree with that but that it didn't go deep enough It was basically just you know, read these verses.
01:16:35: This is your homework Behavior modification so to speak it didn't really address the underlying issues.
01:16:41: So it became much worse to the point where we did divorce in February 2016 and There had been sort of a change of the guard at our former church
01:16:53: We didn't have a counseling pastor when my ex -husband and I were in counseling We were seeing someone from outside the church who was also a very good pastor.
01:17:01: But anyway, I told them the whole thing and They claimed to believe me Initially, and they were very sympathetic and all of that and then about a week or so later
01:17:12: They called this was two pastors and myself together they called me back into the office to quote -unquote asked me a few questions and It turned into basically a two -hour theological debate
01:17:26: Where at the end of it I was told and they claimed that they weren't discounting that it was abusive they even said one of them said that it was one of the worst cases of emotional abuse he had ever heard of and We're not discounting that that was just as bad as physical abuse
01:17:43: But and this was the caveat at the end They told me that they did not believe that any abuse no matter how serious it was
01:17:52: Justified divorce and I said Okay, then if I were sitting here with bruises all over my face or no,
01:18:00: I didn't say I I deliberately distanced myself I said if a woman were sitting here with bruises all over her face because she'd been physically abused what would you tell them then that she can't leave she has to stay in that and the one of the two sort of hemmed and hawed and said well
01:18:18: I Would potentially allow for a separation Possibly a long separation while the husband is being counseled and God is going to change him and I kept explaining to them
01:18:30: No, my ex -husband has said he's not going to change. This is the way he is and They said well you have a very low view of Christ Because God can change anyone and we sort of went around in circles because I agree with that God can't change anyone, but he doesn't force anyone to change who isn't going to repent.
01:18:49: Oh, well, he'll repent I said well, no, he won't even admit that he's been abusive. So that was how the whole thing started and then
01:18:58: They met with my former husband now at this point. We're already divorced the paperwork had been signed
01:19:04: I'd been living in my own apartment, but they insisted that I was going to reconcile they didn't Essentially they did not
01:19:12: Recognize the divorce. I guess you could put it that way and so they got my ex -husband to go in for some sort of counseling once a week
01:19:21: Biblical counseling slash methodic counseling and I'm not privy to what was said or what went on in the rooms
01:19:27: I just know from what the kids said that it got worse Not only towards them, but the raging was going on.
01:19:36: It was getting worse at home Continually trash -talking my family my parents myself
01:19:43: And so I started documenting these things because at this point I realized the elders were not on my side
01:19:49: They didn't care what was being done to me They cared about their agenda, which was to get me to reconcile at all costs
01:19:57: So then our older daughter who's now who's an adult was also reaching out to the elders for help
01:20:04: She was documenting the verbal abuse I was documenting all of the things that the younger kids were coming to my apartment every week and telling me with dates with quotes
01:20:15: And saying look, you know, you're telling me he's going to come to repentance. You want me to reconcile? Here's three pages of documentation.
01:20:23: Please address some of these issues. Oh they will they will we will in counseling at some point, but It just continued sort of on in that vein and then they tried to call me months later in for another meeting
01:20:37: With the two pastors and me and I had even been advised at that point by a biblical Counsel a female biblical counselor not to let myself be put in that position ever again
01:20:47: Two pastors and they wanted the ex -husband there in the room as well Ganging up on me because there was a complete imbalance of power.
01:20:55: I knew I wasn't going to get any help It was just it was turning into harassment at this point.
01:21:00: So I had left the church and was with I was in an Another local church where the pastor is very very familiar and has counseled many of Not many but several of us women who came out of the church in question under similar circumstances basically come out of abusive marriages been bullied into Reconciling refused to reconcile and left as a pariah.
01:21:26: Well, the men remained in the church basically embraced and their
01:21:34: Modus operandi is just oh, well, he's in counseling. He's repentant He goes to counseling once a week.
01:21:41: Meanwhile, everything is getting worse at home. So there was no fruit And I knew that there wasn't going to be any fruit
01:21:47: I told them that at the beginning But no But if we can at least pretend that there's some fruit if we can at least get the wife to go back into this abusive
01:21:56: Situation then our job here is done They won't say that in so many words But after hundreds of pages of emails going back and forth between myself and the elders phone calls meetings that was what it boiled down to and I dug in my heels and Would not go back to what was an ongoing abusive situation.
01:22:18: They were not doing anything about it. So then In December, so this was a full 10 months after the divorce
01:22:26: They sent me a letter Basically threatening me they blackmailed me if I did not re -engage in the reconciliation talks they were going to have a congregational meeting and tell everybody that I had sinned and There were a lot of very very very twisted statements in that false accusations
01:22:48: At this point the Wartburg watch which is a watchdog Christian Blog had picked up on the story not from me someone else in the
01:22:59: Christian publishing world or biblical counseling world had tipped them off and they started investigating the situation called the former pastor got him on the phone follow all of his correspondents and started writing about this
01:23:16: Insane the travesty of justice how they turn the tables on me And I knew by this point that Sadly my situation was far from unique I had read
01:23:28: I don't know if you were familiar with Jeff Crippen's work at all He writes for crying out for justice, but pastor
01:23:34: Jeff Crippen Wrote a couple of very good books one of them was a cry for justice how the problem of domestic abuse hides in your church and I was reading
01:23:47: Testimony after testimony chapter after chapter in that book and all of these women in Evangelical and or reformed churches were being bullied in the same way
01:23:58: I was when they stood up and said help me. I'm in a very dangerous or destructive marital situation and Every single time it was the woman who was essentially driven out of the church
01:24:12: So then getting these letters which are there their threats of defamation basically if you don't go back
01:24:20: We will defame you it's what it boils down to Legally they were not in the clear because I had resigned my membership and they wouldn't accept the resignation
01:24:33: So we came painfully close to a class -action lawsuit in the meantime
01:24:40: After the Wartburg watch reported on my story and they were speaking with the pastor the local newspaper picked up on it as well and Three other women well, two of whom had been victimized by my former pastor one of whom was a witness
01:24:54: She had been a witness at one of the defamation meetings So they call him Matthew 18 meetings
01:25:00: Against a woman who left an abusive marriage were willing to come and testify if it had ever gone that far
01:25:07: But finally in January of last year, they did send me a one -paragraph
01:25:14: Letter saying yeah, we dropped you from our membership roles with a heavy heart something to that effect
01:25:19: So they dropped the whole thing and we didn't have to proceed but that was Probably that was far more traumatic than the divorce itself
01:25:27: Because when the people the leaders that you love and trust are not willing to help you in In a situation that serious and in fact
01:25:39: Indirectly enable your abuser because now he's being embraced. Oh, it's your wife.
01:25:45: Oh, she's Unsubmissive or whatever term they want to put on it. That is a horrible horrible experience to go through spiritually and psychologically and Fortunately, I had a new
01:25:59: Bible preaching church. Very compassionate very wise pastor Tremendous support from my
01:26:06: Christian friends from my family. I don't know how I would have survived that alone.
01:26:11: It was very painful And Oh, by the way CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York You have also won a free copy of fractured covenants the hidden problem of marital abuse in the church by our guest
01:26:25: Marie O'Toole make sure that you give us your full mailing address so that that could be shipped out to you
01:26:32: Compliments of our friends at CV bbs .com Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service Let's see here we have
01:26:44: Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania who says I'm sorry I had to depart from the program briefly, and I don't know if I missed something
01:26:53: But I remember you saying that the pastors of your church Admitted that this was the worst case of emotional abuse that they had ever seen
01:27:03: Did they therefore put your husband under church discipline of any kind?
01:27:11: No, that was the ironic thing of the whole situation When I refused, you know absent any sign of repentance and with all of the ongoing trauma verbal intimidation attempts things like that Documentation from the children and I'm keeping track of all of this.
01:27:30: I refused to Reconcile the church discipline quote -unquote was turned on me
01:27:37: Which was unbelievable, so he was supposedly in counseling of some sort week in and week out
01:27:43: I have no idea what they talked about All I know is that things were getting even worse and he refuses to this day
01:27:50: It's been two years now will not admit that he was abusive Well, the thing that even though the kids have confronted him on it, yeah
01:27:57: Well, the thing that's odd about that is it's one thing if the elders didn't believe he was emotionally abusive
01:28:03: But when they say when they say it's the worst case they've ever seen and they don't discipline him. That's what's odd about it
01:28:10: Actually, they said it was very bad and very serious Direct quote that it was the worst case they'd ever heard of came from a hospital chaplain
01:28:19: I had a panic attack at work one day because of the pastor trying to force me back into that He was the one who said that actually but it was in fact the pastors at my former church did acknowledge
01:28:32: It was a very serious case. Wow that it would be abused was very serious
01:28:37: I think it's a hospital chaplain described it as the worst case of emotional
01:28:44: Psychological abuse he had heard of in a Christian marriage in 35 years of counseling
01:28:51: Wow That was from a Boston Hospital chaplain Wow, well, we have to go to our final break right now
01:29:00: And if anybody else would like to join us, we still have a couple of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered
01:29:06: But if anybody else would like to join us on the air then please Submit your questions to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
01:29:15: Chris Arnzen at gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the
01:29:22: USA and Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
01:29:28: Don't go away. God willing We'll be right back with more of Marie O'Toole and fractured covenants
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01:35:09: Tell our sponsors that you heard about them from Chris Arnson an iron sharpens iron radio and now we are back with our guest
01:35:17: Maria tool for the last 24 minutes or so of our discussion on fractured covenants the hidden problem of marital abuse in the church and Our email address if you have any questions is
01:35:30: Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com Give us your first name city and state and country of residence and only remain anonymous
01:35:37: If it's about a personal and private matter we have Ronald and Eastern Suffolk County Long Island, New York Who wants to know have you ever heard of the book titled the heart of domestic abuse by Chris moles?
01:35:55: I? Have heard of it. I have not read it To be honest with you that is not a new name to me, but it's a new title
01:36:06: Okay, and by the way Ronald I interviewed Chris a couple of years ago you can type in Moles, that's em is in Michael Oles on the search engine of iron sharpens iron radio .com
01:36:20: and you will get the mp3 link The free downloadable link where you can listen to that interview with Chris moles on his book the heart of domestic abuse
01:36:33: And by the way, you've also won a copy of fractured covenants the hidden problem of marital abuse in the church
01:36:41: Let's see. We have an Anonymous listener who wants to know what kind of research?
01:36:48: Did you do that drew you to the conclusion that this is an epidemic in the church in regard to hiding the problem of marital abuse oh
01:36:58: Got a pen and paper ready Well, I already mentioned one of Jeff Crippen's books just he's probably the foremost in my opinion anyway the foremost
01:37:14: Writer and speaker on this because he has written two books on this issue and How widespread it is especially in the
01:37:25: United States? I don't know how it is abroad but especially here in the u .s. in reformed churches the sweeping it under the rug and I've outlined actually an excerpt from his book about the
01:37:39: Pattern it usually falls into when women go to their pastors and what happens after that and how the tables are turned on the woman and Ultimately she being the one who has to leave the church well, the men are broadly believed and are just assumed to be repentant, but anyway the first book of his which is a very good research material is
01:38:05: Some Crying out it's crying out for justice. I think is the name of the blog a cry for justice is the title a cry for justice
01:38:19: How the evil of domestic abuse hides in your church and then also see a book he co -authored
01:38:27: With Rebecca Davis unholy charade unmasking the domestic abuser in your church
01:38:33: Rebecca has also written another book, which I've read. It's also very good unmask
01:38:40: Untwisting scriptures with her book the one that she co -authored with Jeff, which is a really good research one
01:38:46: It's the one I just mentioned on holy charade then you would also want to read not under bar bondage by Barbara Roberts and Oh Going back just to Jeff Crippen, especially for research purposes
01:39:01: You might be interested in looking him up on sermon audio .com He has over a dozen.
01:39:09: He did a whole series of sermons preaching on the issue of domestic abuse within Christian marriages
01:39:17: And they are all uploaded on sermon audio .com. I Wish I could remember the exact titles of them, but if you were to look
01:39:25: Jeff Crippen up You would find all of his preaching on it and then
01:39:31: Sam Powell who's also he hasn't written as extensively as Crippen has but he blogs and he is also a pretty outspoken pastor
01:39:44: Has his, California Yuba City, California I believe it's another and then another place.
01:39:55: I've also noticed Outside of Twitter, which I don't really use that much
01:40:01: Oh Both I could pronounce his last name for me, please both to be chien.
01:40:07: He's the grandson of Billy Graham Do you know how to pronounce his last name begins with a
01:40:13: T? No, I Right. All right, but you know what I'm talking about He is the executive director of grace that stands for godly response to abuse in the
01:40:24: Christian environment He has done a tremendous amount of writing on this subject as well different forms of abuse including
01:40:32: Marital abuse in the church and one of the his articles actually got me into trouble when
01:40:37: I shared it once on social media It was about this very dynamic of the churches that will roundly send women back into the arms of their abusive husbands
01:40:49: Another person who has written about this and runs the courage conference every year
01:40:54: Which is geared towards Not only marital abuse survivors, but victims of spiritual abuse
01:41:01: Many of whom are women who have been treated this way by their elders is Ashley Easter she runs the courage conference and Valerie Jacobson, it's another one who's written on this
01:41:15: You can go on any given day on Facebook or someplace like that where there are these
01:41:22: Groups like support groups For Christian survivors of domestic violence and it is the same story over and over and over again
01:41:33: Another name, I'll give you Julie Owens. She runs a group called
01:41:42: Responding to abuse in the Christian environment No, I believe it's domestic violence is in the title responding to domestic violence in the
01:41:51: Christian environment and some of the stories that Women are sharing. This is a private a closed group there.
01:41:58: It's again and again from Oregon to Florida women who have either been put out of their churches or had to leave their churches
01:42:08: Because of situations like this where they're standing up to an abuse Situation and then you you hear all of the stories in the mainstream media
01:42:17: Karen Hinckley was one She was also nearly
01:42:24: Wound up having a lawsuit with Matt Chandler's church because they were trying to force her to go back
01:42:29: To a man that wasn't domestic abuse. It was pedophilia Child pornography she had an annulment and the church very publicly shamed her they had this
01:42:41: Defamation meeting on her as they threatened to do with me simply because she had the marriage annulment
01:42:47: Well, who's going to stay married to an unrepentant child? Pedophilia, I don't think he was a molester, but you get the point
01:42:57: And there have been other cases like this too many of them in Presbyterian churches and Baptist churches
01:43:02: Not all of the names are coming to me at the moment, but I mentioned some of them in my book So yes, this is an epidemic in every sense of the word and it's encouraging to see that more people are speaking out but at the same time you seeing you're seeing the pendulum swinging the other way and the
01:43:21: Patriarchal authoritarian teaching is getting even stronger in some circles and just for clarification
01:43:29: The the grandson of Billy Graham that you mentioned. Yes, it's not the same as Tulian who?
01:43:36: No, it's his brother. Right, right because unfortunately brother right because unfortunately Tulian was involved in his own
01:43:42: Abuse by committing adultery Well, yes. Oh, yes, and his brother who
01:43:48: I'm referring to boss wants nothing to do with him He feels you know, that's a very scandalous thing
01:43:53: He nothing to do one with the other You know, they're both
01:43:59: In the same family, but yeah, but look up his website grace. It's a very good the way they have advocated for abuse victims with different types and We have another anonymous listener who wants to know how aggressively if at all
01:44:18: Did your ex -husband try to preserve the marriage when you were not only threatening to leave him?
01:44:26: But when you actually left him, oh not at all. He just said, okay.
01:44:32: Oh Really? Oh, yeah Okay, yeah,
01:44:37: I didn't try to preserve anything. I mean we both knew that there was nothing left to preserve at that point
01:44:44: Okay, so he did when? Right when the elders went to him after the fact
01:44:49: Oh, will you be willing to come in for counseling with the ultimate goal of reconciliation? He was very good at playing the game.
01:44:56: But at the same time, I think it was even the same week He told me he wanted nothing to do with me and he wanted me as far away from him as possible
01:45:05: So it was really just a game. He was playing with the elders to torture me, but me personally
01:45:10: No, he never, you know even indicated that he wanted to continue the marriage now
01:45:17: What would you say to women involved in similar circumstances? about the
01:45:27: Basically behaving in a way That I'm sure you would agree that a Christian person
01:45:34: Who loves the Lord who recognizes that they themselves are a sinner and have been forgiven much by the
01:45:41: Lord? and To counsel, how would you counsel a woman? Who you may even feel is being too drastic about ending a marriage
01:45:54: Because the the problems that are going on in the marriage just has her or perhaps him depressed unhappy a lot of people get divorced just because they're not happy because you know, they they don't think that their spouse compliments them enough or you know and they may
01:46:13: Exaggerate because obviously I'm sure you would agree that there are people who exaggerate Circumstances and they may be exaggerating the kind of emotional stress set or sadness.
01:46:24: Yeah going on in a marriage Under what circumstances would you say to a woman, please?
01:46:30: Remember that we have to be Willing to forgive we have to be patient. We have to get our elders involved.
01:46:36: We have to get counselors involved, etc, etc Right. Yeah, in fact a
01:46:43: Previous caller to did allude to that and that's very very true. What did he say? Basically, no fault divorce is caught you would you call it?
01:46:53: So yeah now that definitely Could be a concern. I think so in biblical counseling
01:46:59: The way that we're trained is you do for the first couple of sessions Extensive data gathering even before they come in they have to fill out in some level of detail
01:47:12: What they feel the presenting problem is what is contributing to it what their goal is what you want it to be
01:47:20: Taken care of it's not just like going to a therapist and talking about your feelings So even before you meet them you have a pretty good idea of what's going on But then when you sit down and you meet with the woman you're asking probing questions
01:47:36: You want to get it's much detail as possible So that would pretty much come out in the first couple of sessions
01:47:44: And I assume for the sake of the illustration were excluding physical abuse Because if your husband is hitting you my advice is no you need to go and file a police report now
01:47:55: Because men who hit their wives don't do it once but let's assume that we're just talking about verbal and emotional abuse
01:48:04: Is that correct? Yeah, well Yeah, that would be obviously primarily what we're speaking about in our okay
01:48:11: So absent physical abuse that would be my first step with such a woman because exactly as you said
01:48:17: You don't want women, you know running around or or men. Let's be Gender non -gender specific running around saying oh well
01:48:26: He or she is abusing me because they burned the toast or they were annoying one day after work
01:48:31: So you can pretty much root that out if you're having a fruitful counseling session the first two sessions
01:48:40: You're asking a lot of questions a lot of fact -gathering a lot of data gathering
01:48:46: But what when why and where and as I said earlier in the program? Abuse is different from just being annoying.
01:48:54: This is an attack on their person. It's not constructive criticism It's not complaining about a
01:49:01: Specific behavior that maybe needs to change because those are valid things that we do get into in counseling
01:49:08: It's is she being demeaned? Is she being humiliated? Is this a pattern? Was this a one -time thing?
01:49:14: There are all of these things that you have to look at now ideally the
01:49:20: Husband should be meeting concurrently but separately with the work with Either the pastor or counselor usually they're the same person
01:49:33: This is not couples counseling because abuse is not a marriage counseling issue abuse is a separate issue that needs to be dealt with separately the woman is meeting with a woman and The husband if he's open to it should be meeting with a man who is confronting him on his behavior
01:49:53: Not minimizing it not sugarcoating it by giving it different words like well
01:49:59: I'll talk to him about his sinful patterns of behavior There's even an unwillingness to use the word abuse in some churches with counseling ministries but for her part all she can do is be honest with the counselor and Sit down and talk about that.
01:50:20: All right Well, if this is actually going on that needs to be confronted. Yes, we're all sinners
01:50:26: Yes, she's doing things but I want to make one point perfectly clear here Nothing that a woman does justifies her being abused
01:50:36: That's very important to understand because sometimes pastors to justify reconciliation with an ongoing unrepentant abusive spouse talk about Bilateral sin and they claim they're not victim blaming but you have to address your own sin and her sin might be
01:50:55: She didn't fold the laundry that week or got impatient with the younger children or had an unfollowed
01:51:02: Uncharitable thought in her heart whereas the husband's sin might be much more serious if we're talking about abuse where he's demeaning her constantly terrorizing the children
01:51:13: Intimidating her putting her down There's just no comparison, so that's very important to understand that she is not responsible for her husband's abusive
01:51:26: Behavior patterns. She's not responsible even more so for his heart issue or whatever is driving that So there isn't really much that she can do to change him because you can't change another person but if at least the counselor is asking the right questions and Looking at the patterns of behavior here.
01:51:45: She can determine What's actually going on there and the woman can have an advocate? That's very important for an abuse victim being believed is extremely important and not being dismissed
01:51:58: We have another anonymous listener who says Don't you believe that because of the fact that anyone no matter what sin they commit can be
01:52:09: Transformed and changed by the power of the Holy Spirit that even a violent husband as long as what you said is carried through such as police reports and removal from the dwelling and safety and so on Shouldn't even a violent husband be given some kind of an opportunity to repent and restore the marriage
01:52:37: Yes, I think we covered that about 45 minutes ago when I robustly affirmed that God can change anyone and we always use the cliche example of fall on the road to Damascus Yes, God can change anyone grace should be given ample opportunity to repent should be given and They have
01:53:01: Accountability built in if they're going to a gospel preaching church with or without a counseling ministry
01:53:06: But if I also said we are not puppets on strings and God does not force change on anyone if someone
01:53:14: Refuses to repent then God is not going to force them to repent and we can't
01:53:19: Program even if we want to think we can through our biblical counseling programs and all that sort of thing we can't program another person to repent and just saying the right words at one point because They're in the counseling room and they know how to play the game does not mean repentance
01:53:36: There has to be real fruit there and abusive people I almost said abusive men, but I'm allowing for the fact that abuses can also be female are very very very good at playing the game in Fact I'll again refer to Jeff Crippen's book.
01:53:53: There's one more author who is not a Christian, but he is the foremost expert on on abuse and the psychological dynamic behind that by the name of Lundy Bancroft who's written a book called why does he do that inside the minds of angry and controlling men and he talks about how
01:54:18: Men who are abusive are that way not because they're sadistic not because they enjoy
01:54:25: Inflicting pain for its own sake. It's because of the trade -off they get for Power power or control is sort of their idol
01:54:35: That is a very very very hard mindset to change, but it can be changed now
01:54:41: Here's even a non -christian admitting as rare as it is sometimes an abuser will change if they have the proper motivation if they can see the consequences of their actions as Being negative and truly wanting to make a good faith effort to change now as we as Christians would
01:55:01: Affirm that even more so but for a different reason which your collar just alluded to Because of the
01:55:07: Holy Spirit, so if someone is indwelt with the Holy Spirit It at least in reality if in theory then their conscience is going to be changed by that But if your heart is hardened
01:55:19: God is not going to force that heart to be softened He can invite you he can put people in your life
01:55:27: He can send the conviction of the Holy Spirit But if the person does not respond to that, he's not going to force it.
01:55:35: So I Hope that answers this question. Yeah, and one one thing that I can insert here in the event that there are pastors or just Ordinary Christians who are in any way militating against what's being discussed here.
01:55:53: I know a very solid Bible -believing reformed pastors and churches that have disciplined and even excommunicated men for the emotional abuse of their pastors now if that if that could be a
01:56:13: Discipline able and Excommunicable offense then why wouldn't a similar circumstance with a spouse
01:56:22: Have just as much weight to it. So because they take the
01:56:28: Ephesians 5 22 verse that's pretty much the only verse from the
01:56:33: Bible my ex -husband likes to quote and he doesn't even quote the whole thing why it's submit to your husband and An abuser will build a whole theology around that right?
01:56:42: If women are inherently inferior to men then The Abuse if you will towards the pastor is going to be taken much more seriously than that And of course you believe that wives should submit to their husbands, but there are men that are abusing that That they're leaving out husbands.
01:57:04: Love your wives as Christ. Love the church I'm sorry Yeah, you were saying exactly the same thing that I was saying
01:57:12: That they are leaving out the command to for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church
01:57:18: And gave himself up for her Well, we are now out of time
01:57:24: I want to give you about a minute and a half just to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we give contact information and other things
01:57:36: Oh goodness Well, I know as I said at the beginning of the program that this is a sensitive issue for many
01:57:44: I can guarantee you if you're attending a church anywhere in the u .s.
01:57:50: or abroad even that there are women in the pews of that church who were in some kind of an abusive marriage and Most of them are too afraid to speak up The few that do or the cases that you hear of please don't
01:58:05: Judge or jump to conclusions or assume that the woman is wrong And above all they need to be believed
01:58:13: Believe the woman no woman is going to walk away from a Christian marriage without a darn good reason and if they claim that they
01:58:20: Are in a hopeless situation or they are being abused. Please believe them and If someone from the clergy is listening to this
01:58:29: Please take that to heart. It is the victim who needs your help. Not the perpetrator And I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the contact information they need first of all
01:58:40: I know that your website is marina cheva at wordpress .com
01:58:46: That's Marie Not as in Thomas ch e
01:58:51: V as in victory a at wordpress .com And I know that the
01:58:57: Calvary press website Calvary press who published this book that we have been discussing today fractured covenants
01:59:05: Their website is Calvary press .com Calvary press .com
01:59:10: and their toll -free number at Calvary press is 800 -266
01:59:19: Let's see here, it's Five five six four
01:59:25: That's eight hundred two six six five five six four That's the toll -free number for Calvary press
01:59:32: And of course, you could get the book from our sponsors at CV bbs .com as well CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service
01:59:40: Thank you so much Marie for telling a very personal and private story here on our program
01:59:47: I want to thank everybody who listened today And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater