Russell Moore and David French React to Beth Moore Leaving the SBC

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For the Conversations That Matter podcast, my name is

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John Harris. So I'm a little late on this one in a way, this was kind of old news, but not really because the advantage to commenting on something later than when it actually happened is

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I'm able to also look at the reactions to that thing. So I can comment on the commentary.

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And so that's what I'm going to be doing today. This isn't so much about Beth Moore and her decision to leave the

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Southern Baptist Convention, but what this means and how this has been used.

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And that's really more, I think, my point. I've had a number of people reach out to me and say hopeful things, actually, ask me questions that are hopeful.

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You know, does this mean the Southern Baptist Convention is going to go more conservative now? Because look, people like Charlie Dates have left, now

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Beth Moore's leaving, Dwight McKissick has threatened to leave. These are more progressive people in the

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SBC. Does that mean that the conservatives are winning? And I want to say, hold on, let's think through this first and let's take all the facts into account that we can.

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Let's create a paradigm that just makes sense of everything, because that's not the only thing that's happening right now.

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If it were the only thing that was happening, in other words, if 40 churches weren't leaving the

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Southern Baptist Convention every month, then I would say that, yeah, maybe this is a good sign.

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But the fact is, you do have about 40 churches leaving the SBC every month. And I talked to, last week

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I was at an event and Randy Adams happened to be with someone

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I know who was there. And anyway, I got to meet him. He wasn't meeting with me, that's not why he was there, but I was somewhere where he also was.

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And so we actually got to talk for a little bit. He's running for president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He's a conservative.

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I got really encouraging conversation with him. As some of you may well know, another gentleman named

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Mike Stone's also running on a more conservative ticket, if you want to call it that. And so you have

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Randy Adams and Mike Stone, and then you have, I think in more of the progressive camp, you have Linton, who's definitely more progressive, and Moeller, who's not quite as progressive as Linton, but still

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I would put him in the progressive camp. And that's really more because of the way he's managed

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Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. And some of his statements, like even last year, that every single

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American institution he said had, what did he call it, systemic racism, was part of every single

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American institution, that's what he said. And two years, three years ago, saying that the stain of racism will never be gone from the

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Southern Baptist Convention until heaven. I mean, these are pretty, I mean, if you really think through what he's saying, they're pretty radical statements.

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And I've talked a lot about Moeller before, so I'm not going to rehash all of that now. But I would put

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Moeller a little more in that progressive camp. The way that he's allowed Matt Hall and Jarvis Williams to teach on campus without calling for any kind of apology or retraction or anything like that,

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I mean, that should be enough to show that he doesn't have the fighting spirit to be able to stand against what's coming.

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And so anyway, I was with one of the more conservative candidates, Randy Adams, and he said, yeah, 40 churches, about, you know, that's an estimate, but it's based off of some hard, you know, hardcore facts he knows.

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He knows in some of the conventions how many churches are leaving. And so if you just extrapolate those numbers, he said it's probably about 40 churches a week,

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I'm sorry, a month. And that means that they're not leaving over the same reasons

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Beth Moore's leaving. They're leaving, according to the people on the ground, over the liberal drift.

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They're leaving over critical race theory. That's the other cited reasons that a lot of them are giving. They're leaving over soft complementarianism and egalitarianism and just the inability of the convention to police people like Russell Moore and to stop him from doing what he's doing with the

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Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission and Kevin E. Zell at NAMM and all the waste going on there and the planting of woke churches.

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And so it's a lot of things, but it really is the social justice stuff. If you really want to break it down, that's why most of the churches are leaving.

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So so when you have a high profile person like Beth Moore come out and say, hey,

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I'm leaving the Southern Baptist Convention and kind of signaling that it's because it's gotten too conservative or something like that, it sounds it almost reminds me a little bit of like I think it was like Arlen Specter years ago, you know, this

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Republican but progressive Republican from Pennsylvania talking about how like the Republican Party left him.

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And you're thinking like, really, because I'm pretty sure that you're the one on the left here. You're the one that's gotten more progressive.

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And and I think that's it's similar in this scenario. It's Beth Moore's been drifting progressive and she's acting like she's the one that never changed.

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It's the SBC is changing. And so the only thing I can think of is it's just not changing fast enough for her.

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She wants the SBC to keep pace with her, to change as she's changing, even though she thinks

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I think she hasn't changed. And so so that's the normal setting for Beth Moore is kind of what she thinks at this current moment.

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And the SBC is out of step with that. Now someone has also pointed out and I think it's in the some of the articles

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I'm going to show you the her she's they've lost almost like two thousand two thousand.

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I think it's almost two million dollars. They've had a significant financial loss from the from sales sales lost in the

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Southern Baptist Convention. So people aren't using her Bible study like they used to use it. And this is something that we've

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I we've known this. I've talked about this. The people in the pews, when they find out what's really going on at the elite high levels, they reject it.

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They don't like it. This is what happens everywhere. It's the it's it's those who work themselves into these positions of power and get platformed.

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They go progressive or they are progressive. And those who are more working class in the pews, they don't have a big platform.

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They tend to be more conservative. That's just how it is. So I think that the

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SBC is is it's still going left, but it's just not keeping pace with how fast

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Beth Moore wants to go left. That's that's my thinking on this. And I'll bring you some through some things to let you in on why

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I think that. So here we go. Here's here's the first story that I'm going to go over.

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This is just a basic story of Beth Moore leaving the Southern Baptist Convention from the Religion News Service. She retweeted this.

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So she approves of this story. So I feel safe sharing this is kind of her reason. Now Donald Trump has mentioned 11 times in this article.

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The title is Bible teacher Beth Moore splitting with Lifeway says I'm no longer a Southern Baptist. Here's a quote from the article.

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She has been Beth Moore has been a stalwart for the word of God, never compromising former Lifeway Christian Resource President Tom Rainer said in 2015 during a celebration at the

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Tennessee Performing Arts Center in Nashville that honored 20 years of partnership between the Southern Baptist Publishing House and more wonder if those words are still they didn't age well.

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Let's put it that way. And when all is said and done, the impact of Beth Moore can only be measured in eternity's grasp.

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Here's the next sentence in the article. Then along came Donald Trump. And then

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Donald Trump is mentioned 10 more times in the article. The implication is, you know, everything was going fine.

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Things are going well for Beth Moore and the SBC and then Trump came along and that's the reason. It's Trump.

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It's still Trump's fault. Somehow it's Trump's fault. Or at least that's what the split was over.

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It was over Donald Trump. I don't think so. I don't think I think Donald Trump is the occasion for some of this, not the cause of it.

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And his policies. So Russell Moore, I'm going to show you his reaction and then we're going to talk about David French's reaction.

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But Russell Moore, Russell Moore to me has just seemed out of step lately. More so than usual. Here's some examples kind of unrelated to what we're talking about now with Beth Moore.

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But just I don't know what's going on. He posted this tweet of himself in a it's a picture of him in a

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Hobbit mask saying this Hobbit is vaccinated round one anyway, thankful for the astounding skill and speed of the medical science to rid us of this plague, meaning

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COVID. And I'm just thinking like you're the head of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. You're your handle is

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Dr. Moore. Your picture is, you know, you're in a suit. So this is, you know, at least there's a professional kind of I don't know, kind of vibe.

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I think that your Twitter profile is supposed to be giving off your blue checkmark. And then it just seems like a kid like I got a

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Hobbit mask on and calling yourself a Hobbit. You know, you're thinking about the moment we're in where the

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CDC just I think I looked it up the last time I heard about the numbers, at least for like five days ago, but over 1600 people dead due to the vaccination.

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And I'm sure they're way underreporting this because they want it to be successful. Just last week, there was a guy

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I forget the name was an athlete. I think it was a boxer who went to the hospital because of complications with the vaccine and died and it wasn't reported.

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It was just briefly mentioned, I think, on Fox News. The other they were just reporting it on the other networks as it was.

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They didn't know what the cause was. So this is happening. And so you're the ethics guy for the

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ERLC and you're giving your approval to something that just really has not been fully vetted and tested yet.

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And on top of that, there's a guy in jail in Canada right now, James Coates, for refusing to go along with the lockdown and preaching.

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And he's in jail. He's been in jail for weeks. And what is Dr. Russell Moore doing? Any concern that this could come to the

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United States? Well, actually, here's what he says on his previous newsletter.

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Does cancel culture exist? And here's what he says. This is kind of like the point of the article.

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He goes, cancel culture exists and it is not limited to the left or the right, but shows up across the spectrum.

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Really? I feel like that is the most out of touch thing

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I've read in a long time. It's just like, OK, put yourself in like Soviet Russia or something.

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And, you know, the Soviet, the secret police are after you and they've gotten a bunch of your buddies.

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And what your message is, is that, well, you know what? You know, the

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Nazis are bad, too. Or, you know, any of us could do cancel culture, any of us in this country.

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You know, if we were in power, we would, you know, it's like, what? Like, we would all have the secret police rounding people up.

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Well, OK, I guess that's possible that, you know, every single person is capable of of evil.

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But it's like those they're not the ones doing it right now. It's those guys. And so when you minimize it by saying that, well, it's like everyone can do this.

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It's like there could be true. Yeah, I guess everyone can participate in that. But there is a reason the particular strain of cancel culture that is affecting us now is coming directly from the left.

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And the left has the halls of power, whether it is political power. I mean, they own elections now. Practically, they have the media.

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They have Hollywood, the Academy, now the medical side.

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I mean, they've taken over everything. And they're the ones that will get you fired from your job. Look, look at the documentary we just put out there.

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And a lot of other people are coming forward now and saying, yeah, you know, some more things happening to me. I'm a

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Christian. I didn't back down or I said maybe you're not even a Christian. You just didn't go along with the narrative. You're canned.

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Your life can be destroyed. And it's okay because you have all these interlocking institutions that will support that decision.

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And it's for things that are weird. I mean, like, it's not, this isn't, these aren't drastic things.

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It's not like, well, that person, you know, is a pedophile and it's proven. We went through a, you know, went through due process and they need to lose their job.

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It's not that. It's, you know, canceling cartoon characters. And, you know, people who just, you know, in the case of Juan Riesco, just,

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I wouldn't put a black square on my profile. Am I free to do that without my business being completely destroyed and losing all my business contracts?

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The level of, it's not just what they're canceling.

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It's the level of outrage that they have. The ways that it's such a broad field of things that offends them.

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And then they go after it with an intensity, which is just honestly reminiscent of like the cultural revolution in China.

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I mean, it's not quite there yet, but it's getting there and you could see it going there. So for us to more to just kind of be like, well, you know, conservatives can do it.

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Liberals can do it. It canceled culture. Everyone has, you know, like, no, like we're talking about something very specific right now that's different than it was five years ago, 10 years ago, even one year ago.

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So I shouldn't belabor that point probably too long, but I'm just saying Russell Moore for a guy who's in charge of the ethics and religious liberty commission, that's his job to be this out of touch with things that pertain to ethics and religious liberty.

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It's incredible. It's absolutely incredible. And Southern Baptist should be incensed about this. Um, so this is what he had to say about the

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Beth Moore SBC exit. Here's how he's analyzing this. He says, looking back now, I can see that my assumptions behind, uh, let's see the question of whether I guess

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Beth Moore was Orthodox or something. Anyway, he says, um, oh, that Beth Moore was not one of us.

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My, my, so he's looking back at the people who have said that Beth Moore is not one of us.

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And she, she's not part of the theologically rigorous confessional tribe. He's looking back at people who said that years ago, and he's saying,

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I was wrong to, to stop, to not correct them. I mean, you hear this from the woke crowd all the time. I was wrong.

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I didn't say anything when I should have said something. So it's like, they're not the ones directly in sin, but those evil, bad sinners, they didn't say anything when they heard things like this.

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So, so anyway, Russell Moore goes on, he says, she was, I guess I assumed a pragmatist or a seeker sensitive, or maybe even as some called her a mystic.

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I suppose I never questioned any of that. And by my not questioning it, I more than contributed to it. So because he didn't say anything, silence is violence.

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He went after Beth Moore by not going after the people who were going after Beth Moore.

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And he, he follows it up. He says, but I really did not know Beth Moore until two world -shaking realities came to define much of my world.

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Can you guess what they are? Donald Trump and church sexual abuse. She and I saw these things much the same way.

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And both of us were, I think, surprised to see that so few other people did. So here you have

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Russell Moore, who's no, not a relation to Beth Moore. They've not, not related directly, at least closely.

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And he puts out this newsletter, basically when Beth Moore leaves the SBC saying he, what's the implicit attribution here?

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He's, he's attributing it to, well, maybe it's Donald Trump. Maybe it's a sexual abuse thing, you know?

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Because we know that she's not a pragmatist or seeker sensitive or a mystic.

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She's confessional. I mean, that's what Russell Moore's saying. She's, she's solid. There's really no reason for her to leave a solid organization if the

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SBC is supposed to be solid. So, so what was it then that made her leave? Well, it's the same pressure

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Russell Moore is getting. Donald Trump and church sexual abuse. I mean, and this is, it gives them the moral high ground.

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And that's what I want you to see. This whole thing is being used by the progressives in the Southern Baptist Convention.

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Because they're, they're not focused on the 40 churches leaving every month. They're not focused on the little guys who are saying, we don't want the social justice nonsense.

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We're out of here. They're focused on people like Beth Moore. And they're using this situation to, and in the situation with Charlie Dates and others to say, look at these higher profile people and how they're going out of the

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SBC with a big fanfare, big noise, all sorts of articles about it. And their, their analysis is that, well, you know, she, she's, she's justified somehow.

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It's not, her moral reasoning is correct. She's solid. It's, she's orthodox. It's not those things.

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It's not doctrinal in that way. It's, it, the real problem is because she's, she's, you know, took a moral stand, a courageous stand against Donald Trump, that kind of thing.

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That's what they're using. And so what does that mean? The implication of that is that those who supported

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Donald Trump, like people in the Conservative Baptist Network and others, they're the problems. They're the ones that forced poor

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Beth Moore to leave the Southern Baptist Convention. They chased her out because they're so mean. They're the problems and they need to be done away with.

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Something needs to happen to them. I mean, that would be the implication. And if you were trying to do something to remedy this horrible situation that someone orthodox and loving and everything is leaving the convention, they're making more into a victim.

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They're making this millionaire Beth Moore into a victim of evil Trump supporters who don't have the vast majority of them, even, you know, 10 % of the money she has.

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I mean, it's kind of like, think about like what happened just recently with Oprah and Prince Harry and Meghan Markle and just making them into victims when they're like, you're millionaires, like what, how you were born into, like Prince Harry's born into privilege, but now they're trying to throw their, their family under the bus.

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And Beth Moore, something similar is happening. There's a similar dynamic working itself out here. I feel it.

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I sense it. I see it. Russell Moore on Beth Moore's SBC exit. Here's some more quotes. And Beth and I found ourselves confronting the same issues of sexual abuse and assault within the church.

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She as a brave survivor of such, and I as someone trying to equip the church to prevent such and to minister to people who had survived it.

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I think I was, and I am surprised by the level of opposition to morally defining and opposing the scourge. And I don't think

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Beth was surprised at all. Really? Really? There were people just so opposed to, you know, they wanted to support sexual abuse.

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So they opposed the people that were against it. Come on. No, it, people were opposed to leaving due process out of the picture.

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They were opposed to the standpoint theory that says, because you survived sexual abuse, you're an expert on it now.

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No, the word of God gives us clear indications about what, what to do in these situations.

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And it doesn't come from someone who's just a survivor of it. And I mean, these are the kind of critiques that you'd hear.

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It wasn't that everyone's in agreement that sexual abuse is wrong. Everyone of any consequence in the

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SBC would be agreement. But now Russell Moore is implying there's this group of people, I guess they think sexual abuse is okay.

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They're the ones that they chase Beth Moore out of the convention. So terrible, right? He continues, those who were the most adept at drawing boundaries were sometimes the most spiritually immature.

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Some who could identify and pounce on anything that might be deemed theologically suspect, even on what were sometimes far from essential issues were given over to constant rivalries or to fits of rage or to alcoholism.

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Some who were thought to brace in standing up to the enemies of faith. And anyway, okay. So basically what he's saying here, that there's hypocrites, there's also hypocrites.

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There's people that are for sexual abuse, supporters of Donald Trump, and then religious hypocrites. They're the problems.

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He says, does Beth agree with me on everything by no means, but who cares? Okay, so now

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I guess it doesn't matter. Agreeing on things doesn't matter. Okay. My best friend in Christ disagree with me on all kinds of things, church polity, eschatology, tongues, and the way we do social political engagement, but whatever.

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So he's minimizing. He's saying, well, there's all sorts of things we disagree on. It doesn't matter. Beth Moore might have some different views on some things, but they're incontinent.

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They don't matter. But I guess if you disagree with Beth Moore and Russell Moore on the way they approach sexual abuse by believe women, and let's just believe without due process, that kind of thing, well, that makes you a horrible person.

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So Russell Moore, he's the hypocrite. He doesn't even believe what he's saying here. He does prioritize some things that you cannot disagree with, and they're not just doctrinal.

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They're not just things you'll read in the Baptist faith and message. They are of a more political nature.

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I mean, they're important things. They certainly are, but don't give us this whole, oh, it's fine to disagree.

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You can disagree with Beth Moore, and it's fine. Those things don't matter. No, no.

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And I'm about to show you in a minute the things that Beth Moore is out of step with SBC doctrine on, or at least most of the people in the

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SBC on. This is a political hack piece. I'm sorry.

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It's written in such a way as to veil what it's actually trying to accomplish. But the implications are that there's this group of Trump supporters, of people who are, for sexual abuse in some way, because they don't want people like the

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Moores coming and confronting it, people who are religious hypocrites, people who major on minors, and they're the problem.

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They're the ones that are chasing Beth Moore out of the convention. It's not Beth Moore's fault. And Russell Moore, he's getting his own virtue, because he finally realized, the scales fell from his eyes, and he realized, man,

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I was just like them. And now he has transcended, and he is superior to all those people that I just mentioned, because he can finally see how hypocritical they are and mean.

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And he's now on the same team as Beth Moore. I mean, this is what, it's vilifying the conservatives in the

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SBC. That's what this piece is intended to accomplish, I believe. Now, David French did something similar.

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He wrote his own piece. I'm going to, this will be shorter, but he says, So there you go.

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It's the Trump supporters. It's the white supremacists. It's those who want to do sexual abuse, or they don't think that you should oppose it.

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It's those guys. They're the bad guys. They chase Beth Moore away. He continues, So they're the problem, attacking her and sneering and condescending terms.

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Okay, so David French has been condescending towards everyone else. He's strawmanning everyone. No one of any clout is chasing

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Beth Moore out of the SBC because they're white supremacists or they're favoring sexual abuse.

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It's just not happening. But that's his implication, and he's looking down at them. Meanwhile, trying, it's all a positioning thing.

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Trying to position himself and Beth Moore as the ones that can do no wrong, or the ones that are in this morally superior position against all those evil people, when in reality,

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Beth Moore is the one with all the privilege. Beth Moore is the one that's changed, or at least she's been coming out with her theology and being more vocal about her theology and her politics, and she's the one that's supporting the dangerous ideas, which

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I'm about to show you. There's no one in the SBC that believes this stuff that French and Moore are trying to make them believe.

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This is political hackery. That is what is going on here. Don't miss it.

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So when people say, hey, are you encouraged that Beth Moore left? SBC can write itself. No, because I'm seeing how they're using it.

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This is how they're using it. They're using it to further vilify the conservatives. They have the wind at their backs, and they know it.

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Now, I remember, I'm old enough to remember a few years ago, 2019, when Russell Moore said an

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SBC that does not have a place for Beth Moore doesn't have a place for a lot of us, and this, of course,

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James Lindsay had said, the expert on critical theory is kind of like the Trojan horse that comes into organizations.

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You'll hear something like that, and the next thing you know, you've got critical theory.

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Well, now Beth Moore isn't in the SBC. So Russell Moore is, that's what he's using.

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He's using, hey, this is a bad thing that Beth Moore is leaving because of these evil people, and we got to do something about it, right?

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That would be the only, if there's evil going on, right? You got to do something about it. That's the only logical implication.

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So did Beth Moore leave the SBC, or is the SBC not changing fast enough for her, is the question.

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Tom Buck says, in light of our Baptist Faith and Message 2000, he's a conservative pastor, confessional statement.

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Beth Moore hasn't been SBC for some time. I'd rather see her return to the doctrinal beliefs of the SBC than leave.

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However, anyone who doesn't intend to walk in agreement with our confession should leave. Well, how is that, Tom Buck?

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Let me just, off the top of my head, here's just a few things that are either out of step with the Baptist Faith and Message, or that are just out of step with the

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SBC in general. There's four things that I remembered, that I looked up to just verify they were true, and here they are.

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Beth Moore deleted an anti -homosexuality passage in her book, Praying God's Word, in 2009.

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So in 2009, she had this whole section, a couple paragraphs, I believe it was, at least one paragraph, against homosexuality deleted from future editions.

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Why? She never gave much of an explanation for it. She wanted Christians to ethnically diversify their libraries in 2018 because, among other reasons,

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Jesus didn't have white hands. Okay, so Jesus isn't white. So you need to ethnically diversify your library.

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That's standpoint theory. That's postmodernism. There's some kind of, I guess, better view that you're going to have if someone's ethnically diverse.

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You're going to get the, I don't know, you'll be closer to the truth somehow. No, that's not how truth works. Beth Moore affirmed

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Lisa Saunders' pastorate in 2019, and this was during a whole time in which she was basically saying she was preaching during Easter Sunday, and then there's this woman preacher, and she basically affirms, hey, you go, girl, good, you're going to preach, you're a pastor.

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She affirms it. This was public. Beth Moore claimed also white supremacy, an ongoing problem in the church, in 2020.

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So she's just like Russell Moore. So this is what's going on in, there's just a few things.

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I probably could pick much more, but I think Tom Book is referencing probably the whole willingness to support women preachers, and she does pile around with a lot of them, and to preach herself on a

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Sunday morning, and he's saying that's out of step with Baptist Faith and Message 2000, and I think he's right about that, but these are some of the things that make

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Beth Moore out of step with rank -and -file SBC people. It's not just because, well, she opposed Donald Trump so bravely.

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No, there's actual doctrinal disagreements here, and they're not insignificant. Russell Moore, David French, they don't even talk about that stuff.

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So this is the situation that's going on, and just my analysis of the whole thing is,

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I think they're using it. I think they're using this, and Charlie Dates and others who have left, who are more liberal, who are vocal about it, to say that the problem is with the conservatives and the

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SBC. You made Beth Moore cry, right? That's kind of the, you big bullies, and meanwhile, they're the ones that are the bullies.

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And so, you know, I don't know all the reasons why Beth Moore actually left.

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I just know, though, how it's being used right now, and it's not an encouraging thing. You don't get the sense that David French or Russell Moore are afraid that the

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SBC is being hijacked by conservatives. I mean, they're writing like they have the wind at their back.

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Like, they can, you know, they're going to put the nail in the coffin. They can guilt these conservatives out of the convention somehow, or neutralize them in some way, and I do think that's the whole plan here.

28:14

If they were really scared, you know, they would be, Russell Moore would be talking about leaving the convention, or he would, he wouldn't be writing pieces like this if there was such a resurgence in conservatism or something.

28:26

I mean, you know, you'd think the guy wants to keep his job, at least on some level. So, that's my analysis of that.

28:33

I just, I'm not feeling what some of you guys are feeling. I'm sorry. Some of you guys think this is great, you know, the

28:38

SBC is being more conservative. Without Beth Moore, I don't think that's the case. I think, you know,

28:44

I don't think it's that significant for the SBC. Moore didn't have an official title or anything.

28:51

She was just a, she was just a, she had her own platform, honestly, apart from the SBC, but the

28:56

SBC did a lot through Lifeway to carry, to publish her books, and to really carry her platform forward.

29:03

But she, she doesn't need them anymore, really. I mean, she has her own platform. If anything, the

29:08

SBC kind of needed her to make money and sell books. And now they, you know, now they don't have her.

29:14

So, I think in this relationship, the SBC was the, is the one at the disadvantage, not

29:20

Beth Moore. So, that's, those are my thoughts on this. My political analysis,

29:26

I guess, if you want to call it that, of, because it is a political situation, honestly. It is going on in the

29:32

Southern Baptist Convention. If you're a conservative man, just keep on, or a woman, keep on fighting.

29:40

You got some good conservative candidates that are stepping up, it seems like. And, you know, hopefully,

29:46

I mean, my, my prayer, my hope is that the Southern Baptist Convention can restore itself in some way, that there can be, but it's going to take stage four chemo.

29:54

And if that does not happen in this next election, I think there's, there's no way. You cannot, in good conscience, and it's just my opinion,

30:02

I don't think you can, in good conscience, stay in the organization. You'd have to get a president who's willing to apply stage four chemo now, because it needed to happen yesterday.

30:11

But, that, that's just my opinion on all of that, for all you Southern Baptists out there.

30:17

So, hey, keep, keep fighting. And, you know, pray that the Lord, you know, does what, what his will is in this.

30:24

I don't know what that is. Maybe it's to form another denomination. Maybe, maybe the stage four chemo can be applied somehow.