October 1, 2019 Show with Dr. Dustin Benge on “The Angelology of Jonathan Edwards”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown, Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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In cumberland county pennsylvania lake city florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming At iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is chris arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy tuesday on this first day of october 2019.

And i'm glad to start off reformation month With a first-time guest that i've been wanting to get on this program for quite a long time. His name is dr dustin benj. He's a lecturer senior fellow and Administrative research assistant at the andrew fuller center for baptist studies Visiting lecturer at munster bible college in cork ireland editor of expositor magazine author of a journey toward heaven sweetly set on god the spirituality of david brainerd Lifting up our hearts and others.

He's also a writer for reformation 21 christ christ word collective Table talk the magazine of ligonier ministries and expositor magazine today We're going to be addressing the theme of his doctoral dissertation the angelology of jonathan edwards Which eventually is intended to be in a book published for the public?

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron radio. Dr. Dustin benj.

Uh, chris, what did you. Thank you for the kind welcome?

Amen, and in fact, uh Dustin and I began our acquaintance with one another when I was assisting him in getting a candidacy at a church on long island that was looking for a pastor after their. Their pastor had retired after many years who was a is a very close friend of mine.

Uh that did not work out in god's providence, but i'm sure that the lord has exactly what he intends for dustin coming up uh in the near future, uh before we even go into the subject at hand. The angelology of jonathan edwards.

Uh, why don't you tell our listeners something about the andrew fuller center for baptist studies? We've had My dear friend, dr. Michael haken on this program. In fact, we just had him on recently uh, and he has Explained this, uh to our listeners, but there are first-time listeners, uh, probably every day to our program.

So why don't you let our listeners know something about the andrew fuller center for baptist studies?

I was founded by haken. Uh several years ago when he came to be a pre and biblical spirituality here on the campus of southern. Um, he has had a lifelong pursuit and desire to study the writings of andrew fuller.

Uh among andrew fuller and writing and pastoring churches Around england, uh during that period. And so he wanted to found a center on the campus of southern seminary on the of the early english and um.

The center has an annual conference about the year of a website and um.

Yes, well if anybody has any interest in doing some further investigation on the andrew fuller center. Go to andrew fuller center .org andrew fuller center .org. And all that you need to know will be there.

Uh. Well, uh basically, uh now i'd like you to tell us something about. What topics you'll be covering this weekend. Because uh our guest today Dustin benj is going to be speaking at the reformation conference the annual reformation conference held by grace bible fellowship church in harrisburg, pennsylvania pastored by my friend josh miller a really wonderful and gifted brother in christ and I am so Thrilled that he has this conference annually to bless not only the congregation there at grace bible fellowship church in harrisburg, pennsylvania.

But the surrounding community as well. Uh, so tell us about this conference.

Well, the uh theme of the conference is continued relevance authority and Sufficiency, uh, I don't know about you chris, but I really can't think of a better current moment. Amen. And Evangelicalism at one o 'clock p .m.

Uh on saturday, I will be delivering two talks one on solo scripture alone And the other on total of scripture. There will be a small question and answer session. At the end of our time together on saturday.

On sunday and in addition on the sufficiency of scripture timothy three six former john calvin Looking at his life his pastoral ministry his writings and also Calvin's doctrine of scripturally think i'm sure is as i've already said Desperately needed you on saturday. Amen.

And if you want to call grace bible fellowship church in harrisburg, pennsylvania, their number is 717 -652 -5229. That's 717 -652 -5229. Or you can go directly to their website grace Bfc .com that's grace bfc which stands for bible fellowship church grace bfc .com forward slash Conference and that that will give you all the details that you need.

Uh, it is interesting. There is a very Leftist church and I really don't even feel comfortable calling it a church right here in my community. Uh a congregation within the united church of christ and it is certainly not a church of christ.

Uh, but a member of the denomination that bears that name and they have this very large sign in front of their gorgeous Building, I don't know how many Years the the church building dates back. It looks like it's possibly from the early 1900s or earlier, but it's a gorgeous building and uh, unfortunately, that's the only thing beautiful about it is the building but the their their sign says Uh god is still speaking exclamation point on their sign, but I am quite confident That they would not agree with the subtitle of the conference the bible's continued relevance authority and sufficiency.

Uh, because unfortunately as you know There are many apostates those who have abandoned not only the The christian faith as far as what we read in the inerrant scriptures, but also the faith of their forefathers in their own denominations.

Uh, the the congregationalists were really Uh the puritans, uh who carried on, uh The inerrancy of scripture and all of the pillars of the faith and the reformation that we hold dear and somehow along the way uh, tragically the majority of Congregations that bear that name congregationalists today Are not faithful not only to the bible, but also not to their uh own forefathers in their denomination.

But I hope that as many of you Can attend this conference? I intend to be there for at least part of it. I have previous plans that I already had before I was even aware of the conference, but hopefully i'll be able to make arrangements now, um the The theme that we are addressing today a very interesting theme uh, the angelology of jonathan edwards.

Uh, well actually before we get to that, uh, you're a first-time guest so We have a we have a tradition on this program where we have our first-time guests give a summary.

Of.

How they came to faith in christ the religious atmosphere if any. Uh of your youth how you were raised and what providential circumstances our sovereign lord raised up in your life. That drew you to himself and saved you.

Hmm.

Well, what a great question chris. I always enjoy talking about how the lord transformed my life in salvation uh how he called me to ministry and How providentially I am currently where I am in a small town in southern kentucky, um, pennsylvania or.

Well, you know i'm still getting used to Pennsylvania accents because there is there is a wide spectrum of them and to my Yankee ears being a native new yorker Um, some of the folks around here do sound like they're southerners.

So i'm not saying that southerners would think that but but to me to my ears they some of them sound that way.

Well, I just came back actually as a footnote from england, uh that earlier this week and had A gentleman tell me that when I opened my mouth it is Explained my accent.

That's actually a wonderful way to have your yeah.

I said that's not quite what I hear in the u .s. He called london, uh my parents in kentucky. I was involved from from a their parents were active members up in a queen in a family evening. Through the gospel.

And you were how old again? I'm, sorry. I was 12 years old. Wow Transformation. And I announced to do that.

Yeah, just a brief, uh interjection about that. I know we're going to be discussing this in any second now your friendship and relationship and working. Relationship for the gospel with dr. Stephen j lawson who was one of my modern day heroes but uh knowing, uh.

Very well of Dr. Lawson's theology and a shared theology. He has. On most significant points with another modern-day hero of mine. Dr. John macarthur. Uh, there is a thing called lordship salvation.

And.

As you are fully aware Uh, in fact, probably this is most prevalent in the bible belt. Uh where you have people who are raised in christian homes. They think that they're christians because their parents have always told them that they were no matter how they lived or believed.

Whether there was repentance Evident in their life or not they think they're christians. Perhaps because they have a lineage in their ancestry of pastors, it could be a large number of reasons. Sometimes it's just people in certain geographic locations.

Of the united states and i'm assuming perhaps some other parts of the of the world. People are just assumed to be christians unless they actually Identify themselves as jewish or muslim or members of some other religion.

But There is a false christianity That is prevalent.

Amongst.

Professing believers uh, and there are many testimonies of people who will say I was saved when I was four or When I was six or when I was 10 or 12 uh, but then after decades of rebellion against god and Living in all kinds of scandalous public wickedness I eventually Truly came to a repentant faith and uh was Uh re-established or recommitted my life to christ.

Uh in reality, uh, and i'm sure uh, you would probably agree being Somebody under the tutelage of dr Lawson that those years that that those folks think that they were christian those decades of rebellion.

Were very likely most likely and nearly certainly not.

Spent as a regenerate person chris. Absolutely. Um in pastoral ministry. In eastern kentucky as well as the deep south of mobile, alabama.

Um.

I came in contact with these individuals. Individuals who um being told they were a christian or thinking they were a christian fell under further conviction of sin, etc. Uh, very thankfully though chris. I never had convinced me I attended.

Our pastor was very to speak against this type of theology. For which i'm very thankful. And so I can genuinely say that at that juncture of my life It was very evident that and desired to repent and exercise faith in christ of which we know is a gift to us through which we exercise glory and so.

Um.

Yeah, I did not as a child think that I was a christian. Um, it was very obvious that I was not even though I grew up in that type of atmosphere.

You mean prior to your being 12? Yes. Yes, of course. So tell us how you came to meet and know and work very closely with uh, My modern day hero. Dr. Stephen j lawson who has been on this program. Uh several times in fact the last time I think he was on the program.

He was still pastoring in alabama. Uh, so it's been a while. Uh, if you could give uh, Dr. Lawson a stiff Uh jab with your elbow and his ribs to remind him that I want him to come back. As a guest he has been so busy.

It's been very difficult for me to get him back on the show. But uh, tell us how you came to meet him and work with him with one passion. Ministries.

Yeah, so during my latter part of my master of divinity degree at southern church of jackson, kentucky to be Precise. I enjoyed that ministry. It was during that ministry that I met and married my wife.

Long-time friendships from that ministry and they're very thankful to god for it. But after serving about four years there, I was really out of providential. But I had no understanding at that moment how even my name I didn't know that chris, uh, steve lawson.

Knew I was even alive as a human being Church in mobile alabama the senior pastor to meet with my wife and I. We had dinner together in louisville I had met and to make a long story short came an associate pastor got to know.

Really when the oral ministry not retire. Interim preacher. Wow.

Uh, well i'm sure that you must know of this story, but uh the next time.

Uh.

I have dr Lawson on the program god willing I have to have him retell the story of when he was pastoring and I can't remember if it was The same congregation before coming to the doctrines of grace, but he was pastoring a largely arminian church and Was nearly bodily removed from the pulpit by a deacon when he began preaching the doctrines of sovereign grace.

Do you know the story? I do. Um, I will let steve tell it to you himself.

Again, he did tell it on the program before. Oh, okay, perfect.

Well, uh, yes, I do know the story and I know many more stories to go along with that.

Well, I have heard uh wonderful. I have not yet heard you preach and god willing I will this. This weekend, but I have heard wonderful things about Your preaching and your extraordinary gifts from the folks on long island.

Who heard you during your candidacy? And there are many people who are really hoping that you would become the pastor there. But the but the lord did give them a wonderful pastor happens to be a friend of mine as well.

So, oh great.

Wonderful, uh.

Now we are going to enter into the subject at hand the angelology of jonathan edwards. Uh, especially for the sake of our listeners who are either new believers or christians outside of the reformed tradition.

Or not christians at all. Please in a summary form tell us about jonathan edwards.

Well, i'm not sure that I can do. His biographical. Certainly try. Um, jonathan edwards born in 1703 in east windsor connecticut to Timothy and s grew up in a pastor in northampton mass 11 children and the only boy Ian murray recounts the story that he had lots of feminine company.

And when they saw timothy edwards coming down the road feet in height.

Wow. Yeah. Especially back then. Oh, yeah, just it's amazing that there are doorways in the houses in my neighborhood because a lot of The construction from my neighborhood in carlisle, pennsylvania dates back to Civil war days and even uh to revolutionary war days.

And some of these doorways are really short and narrow and yeah. And so I guess it must have been a very humorous sight seeing the edwards girls ducking down to squeeze through doorways.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's an amazing Uh story an amazing family. Yell college beginning to recognize during this yet another example in an extremely puritan Environment and church who was dramatically converted.

Sweet aroma of collision that he receives of all things during uh in 1722 Preaching in a small presbyterian church in new that he began to develop. We know now as bull in his relationship in 1720 a minister At his grandfather's church in northampton began to have married.

Uh, his grandfather died in 1729 down in northampton prizing work of god a divine and supernatural light of which he is most. 1740 tinton church. All of the rest.

Yes, and uh, I have a very good friend pastor ed moore Of north shore baptist church in bayside queens Who was raised in an arminian christian home? And he actually came to embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace while in a secular college when his secular professor Who was not even a believer? uh began to teach about Jonathan edwards and his contribution to american history.

Wow, just because of the very uh, important role edwards played in american history, even if uh, you are not uh, identifying yourself as a christian even even uh, Nominal christians and atheists recognize that edwards did have a significant role in this country.

So it's uh, quite a quite an amazing thing that hearing this This person teach about edwards and what he believes my friend was led by the lord to the doctrines of sovereign grace.

Wow, what a what an amazing testimony. Um as a young high school student, I remember in our English literature class having to read the sermon of an angry god. Uh at that moment, I had not. This was my first again to be a student.

Recognized that this type of sermon was not typical in our mind of the cool man Standing. Now do I think we need more sermons like that today? I would say a hearty amen to that. I would encourage your listeners.

Great sermon series charity and its fruits an exposition that he did on on first corinthians 13 Love. And what a beautiful sermon series that is.

Amen. Yes. The preaching of the whole council of god is very important. So those in the audience of Or those who are in the pews of where a gospel minister is preaching uh, if they are consistent in attendance.

At any given church if it is a biblically faithful church, there are times When those congregants or those listeners? Uh should be lifting up their hands and and just praise and rejoicing and Filled with joy, but there are also times I think when uh, They should be breaking out in a sweat and and be examining their souls to see if they are truly among the elect and They should be struck with fear.

At times and of course those who are not regenerate should always be struck with fear. Uh by what is being said from the pulpit? Uh, so, uh until they come to genuine faith and repentance in christ. So we thank Edwards for not only the sinners in the hands of an angry god, but all the other Messages and writings that he has left in his legacy.

Uh, we are going to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own. Regarding jonathan edwards regarding angelology regarding angels in general. Our email address is chris ornson at gmail .com.

C h r i s A r n z e and gmail .com and please as always give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence. If you live outside the usa. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. God willing. We'll be right back with dustin benj. And the angelology of jonathan edwards right after these messages.

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That's solid-ground-books .com. We are now back with our guest Dustin binge we are discussing the angelology of jonathan edwards and if you could. Uh dustin, uh, tell us what was so compelling about the angelology of jonathan edwards that you chose this as the very theme of your doctoral dissertation.

Well, thanks again chris for inviting me to come on. And the impact that he has on numerous level current evangelical thought and thinking um is far beyond what we could ever really express among edwards many writings among all of a collection boy edwards or a diary his.

But later on he abandoned this work and decided instead. And meditations upon theology and scripture and nature and science in what he has called. While a master of divinity student at southern seminary. I began to read through the miscellanies.

Using them as a small book or theology. Again and again as I was reading through the miscellany holy angels fallen angels. Angels, I don't really know why. Growing up in the 80s and 90s. I was to the mainstream Of american culture by an angel.

Do you remember that program chris? Unfortunately, yes. Unfortunately for me as well. However, it could not be ignored for what it did in the mainstream Evangelical trying to correct american culture in that regard somehow through the years.

I'm going to take this up and my dissertation martin luther. I really found that the whole great. And by the way.

It may interest you to know that back in the 1990s. I don't know how old you were back then but uh back in the 1990s. Uh, I actually wrote the forward Uh to a book titled angels and demons that was written by a christian author named victor knowles.

Uh, it is no longer in print. Uh, but he did Do a a second edition that only dealt with the angelic aspect uh of that subject, uh, which To me the whole subject including the demons was incredibly fascinating.

But his later version was heavenly hosts a panoramic a panoramic study of angels. Well, I don't know if that's in print either, but you could get used copies on amazon. I know that but um. We have a listener a first-time listener In mechanicsburg pennsylvania, who has written a question.

Her name is carla. And her question is what role do you feel that angels play in our world today? And I think Correct me if i'm wrong, uh dustin but being a uh disciple if you will or uh having uh Stephen j lawson as a mentor might be a way a better way of putting it.

I have a feeling that you might correct carla's phrasing by saying What role do you think? Angels play or believe angels play in our world today and not feel.

Yeah, well, I think it's necessary. Chris that we look. Of course, I think everyone would probably in The christian community have whether they know it or not. Just like r .c. Sproul convinced us that we all have certain theologies um, but in regard to the role or the proper understanding Of christian life, I think first and I I probably will answer that later on carla.

So if you could just kind of stay tuned, I think it's necessary. For On the angelic I kind of launched into that that is completely okay, okay. So yeah.

And uh. We have before we go to the midway break. We have about three minutes. So if you want to start on that.

Uh, that would be fine. Yeah, sure. So to say there's a lot of misunderstanding about angels is an understatement. Uh, but for a proper understanding as i've already said we have mostly examined a pleat with hundreds of references to angels from in eden in genesis 3 22 dominates or is a dominant theme or angel in times.

In the old testament while the greek word for angel occurs 176 translated messenger one envoy. And the mission of the angelic host for years the way to john's prophetic.

In fact, we're going to have to have you pick up. Are you left off because we have to go to our midway break right now? If anybody would like to join us on the air the question of your own send it in.

To chris arnson at gmail .com. Chris arnzen at gmail .com. And always remember to give us at least your first name your city and state. And your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

This is our longer than normal break because grace life radio 90 .1 fm in lake city florida requires of us this longer break. Because they air their own public service announcements during this break.

To localize iron sharpens iron radio to lake city florida, which is a requirement of the fcc. So please be patient with us as we take this longer break. But also please use this time wisely write down the information provided by our advertisers So that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them because remember.

We rely upon our advertisers to exist because we could not do this program without the financial support. They provide through advertising with us, but also. Write down questions for dustin benge and send them to chris arnzen at gmail .com.

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