Is Sending Your Children To Public School Child Abuse?

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01:31

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:38

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll seek to answer the age -old question, is sending your children to public school child abuse?

01:47

Now, I think this is one of those subjects where I'm going to be uniquely qualified to be able to contribute to our discussion, and you as well,

01:57

Tim, because we have both been involved in the public school system.

02:04

Well, actually, I say that. Did you go to public school? Yeah. Okay, you did.

02:09

Oh, that's right. I was homeschooled for a little bit, and then went to a private school, and then most of my childhood went to public school.

02:17

Oh, that's right. Because you played basketball and stuff like that, right?

02:23

Yep. Okay. Yeah, so we're going to be uniquely qualified to be able to speak to this subject.

02:29

So now, if you don't know, public schooling has, in my opinion, has been a subject that has come under fire recently with a lot of developments that have been going on over the last several years.

02:45

But, Tim, has it always been this way, that way, and I've just never noticed where there's a lot of people pushing back on the idea of even going to public school in the first place?

02:57

Or is this a relatively new development that's gained a lot of popularity over the last few years?

03:04

Yeah, I mean, growing up in the church, we had our own homeschool versus public school versus private school kind of debates along those lines.

03:13

So I remember listening to those kind of arguments. I think as a person who went to public school, we had certain arguments that we made to talk about the validity of doing that.

03:30

So this was a live conversation growing up. I think one of the things that you're noticing is that those arguments that have been made for years as it relates to these subjects, there's a substantial movement of people who are no longer finding them persuasive, whether you're talking about Christians or you're talking about popular conservative voices out there, like individuals like Matt Walsh or things like that.

03:56

And so I think there is a lot of anti -public school rhetoric that is being put forward, particularly as it relates to individuals in the

04:08

Reformed Christian world at this point, considering where we're at in history. And so I think it's a topic that's been discussed for many years now, and I think you're finding yourself in a moment where you have a lot more people who are essentially calling into question the project of sending your kids to public school at this point now.

04:29

So what's your opinion? Is it abuse to send your kids to public school? I want to register my personal distaste for the word abuse because, again,

04:41

I've done this at various points, because I don't know that that word is entirely clear, but then it does make for a good podcast title, so we'll leave it there for the sake of that.

04:54

Meaning I don't precisely know what we're talking about when we're using the term abuse in general, and abuse is a word that has such a broad semantic domain that I don't know that it's always entirely helpful, but then to get to the broader point, right now at our point in history and our location in the globe and everything else is sending your children to public school, child abuse, meaning abuse as a stipulated term to mean something that is harmful to your kids, whether you're talking about something physically harmful, whether you're talking about harmful to their formation as Christians, harmful to the formation of their character, that sort of thing.

05:39

I would say that certainly my position would be that sending your kids to public school is doing more harm than good at the very least.

05:49

So, yeah, I think it's a form of child abuse for sure. Okay, so what exactly is harmful about it?

05:56

I mean, what's the matter with public school that would make you say, hey, it's akin to abusing a child, it's causing harm to a child?

06:05

Yeah, I mean, I don't even know where to start. I mean, the difficulty is

06:11

I don't know where to start trying to answer a question along those lines. Maybe it'd be helpful just to think in terms of some of the arguments that we made growing up and thought about growing up.

06:23

I mean, these are arguments that I thought were sufficient and acceptable, but, you know, I graduated in 2000.

06:30

So, right, I guess I'm the first millennial class as far as that goes, meaning that I graduated high school at the millennium.

06:40

But then, yeah, I think there's, you know, growing up, going to public school,

06:47

I think, you know, there's obviously dangers of going to public school that I faced growing up.

06:54

I mean, I think when you put a bunch of hormone -ridden kids, you know, in close proximity to one another and, you know, there are certain things that are obviously not helpful to an individual that are related to just temptations, you know, with members of the opposite sex and, you know, pressure to enter into certain relationships and just, you know, garden -variety lust and temptation and those sorts of things that are pervasive and there's a lot of pressure, you know, growing up.

07:30

And so, growing up, I think there were temptations largely along those areas. The anti -God kind of worldview in the public school system when

07:41

I was going to school wasn't as in -your -face as it is right now, but it was certainly there.

07:49

I mean, we'd have teachers that would bring up the topic of, you know, God and religion, but it wasn't just this wholesale assault on it at every single point.

07:58

I would say that, you know, going along the lines of, like, sexual temptation and things along those lines being significant factors growing up, there's also,

08:12

I think, the worldview, you know, and a lot of people don't realize that the worldview of these secular educators are...

08:21

It's problematic in a variety of reasons, and I think we've talked about this in different episodes, with just the whole follow -your -heart kind of worldview that, you know, we're here to be happy, like happiness is the purpose of our existence.

08:35

And, you know, when you live and breathe in a, you know, in our being taught in an educational environment that really doesn't share all the same assumptions that you share, and, you know, it has a dramatically different worldview and a different perspective of the earth.

08:53

I mean, I think a lot of things that we were prepared for, we were prepared for interacting with, you know, our science teachers on the subject of evolution to some degree, but then a lot of the philosophy that undergirded the entire educational project we were probably not taught as well of.

09:14

But, I mean, I think there were arguments that were made at that point that I, you know,

09:20

I would say at different parts of my life I found more persuasive than I do nowadays, so to speak.

09:26

And so, I mean, I think the general arguments that we were making during those days were just, you know, if you take your kids out of public school, then they're going to end up...

09:39

Like, you know, you're... Christians are supposed to be salt and light in the fallen world, right? And if you take kids out, then it's just going to get worse and we're going to lose our preservative effect.

09:49

And so that was one argument that was commonly made. Another argument that was commonly made was essentially the argument that, you know, kids need to be socialized.

10:02

And so, you know, I think growing up that... I looked at kids who were, like, homeschooled or private schooled and...

10:10

It makes a lot of sense. And I thought that they were somewhat dorky, you know, if I want to put it in a crass kind of way.

10:19

And the reason why I thought they were somewhat dorky is because they, you know, weren't aware of all the dirty jokes that everyone was telling and, you know, they didn't understand all the same pop cultural references.

10:30

And, you know, essentially that's what socialization meant was this pervasive kind of immaturity and, you know, crassness and everything else.

10:38

And so, you know, I think I understood those arguments.

10:45

I probably accepted those arguments a little bit growing up. But I do think that, you know,

10:50

I don't think that they were good arguments then and then now thinking about just the trajectory of public education in general in our country and where things are going right now.

11:00

I mean, there are, like, much more... Like, as serious as those temptations that I'm talking about were for me, it seems like there are much greater, you know, areas of danger now to where we're not even...

11:15

Like, you have to kind of... You have to revisit those arguments from the past to begin with and ask, were they good to begin with?

11:22

But then you also have to consider, you know, where we're at right now in terms of, you know...

11:29

Right now, like... I mean, before the danger was that, you know, you would...

11:36

Like, there's all the problems that come from just, you know, the standard person.

11:43

You know, and I wasn't a person who just had, like, you know, girlfriend after girlfriend after girlfriend in high school.

11:48

And, you know, we were taught to avoid those kind of things. But there's still temptations along those lines.

11:54

But then, you know, the danger then was, you know, premarital sex was something that was being normalized growing up for me.

12:02

Yeah, yeah. To where, like, you know, there was an expectation, you know, prom night that everyone would, you know, go and party and do all sorts of things like that.

12:13

And I think parents could protect their kids from, you know, party culture and that kind of stuff to some degree.

12:19

But then now, like, I mean, the dangers are that you're going to be brainwashed into thinking that you're a member of the opposite gender and then have, you know, school officials essentially encouraging you to pursue legal emancipation from your parents and then have a government -funded, you know, sterilization that you're to undertake because, you know, there are now fads and pressures that are associated with just,

12:47

I mean, many girls, like, right now are tempted towards transgenderism as a fad. And it's just, if you look at the statistics on it, it's pretty crazy, like, how common this actually is and the gender fluidity nonsense and all that.

12:59

And, you know, and I think just, you know, growing up, we didn't grow up as kids, like, it really, like, social media wasn't a thing.

13:09

And so, you know, whatever happened at public school kind of stayed at school, you know, and then you could have an escape from that.

13:16

And now you have individuals who are basically just, you know, facing constant pressure.

13:21

And, you know, I dislike the term bullying in general for other reasons, but I mean, there is a reality that there are kids who get picked on by other sinful kids and it doesn't end when they leave the classroom and everything else.

13:34

And so there's a lot of, like, there's a lot of issues right now. Yeah, you can, talking,

13:40

I don't mean to cut you off, but I was thinking about this, you know, even as it relates to, like, the public school shootings that have been happening,

13:51

I mean, it seems like just even sending your, sending your kids to public school, they refuse to protect them in the way that's necessary, right?

14:02

When a school shooting does, I mean, I don't want to over, I don't want to exaggerate the, like, statistical danger of being shot in public school, but then, like, there are, like, those cases are on the rise and then

14:15

I think they're on the rise in part due to the fact that so many kids are, you know, basically addicted to all these psychotropic drugs and everything else.

14:24

So that's in part. But then the response is when these school shootings actually happen, don't leave you very encouraged, and that's kind of your point along those lines.

14:35

And so, like, they're, like, you know, school shootings for me growing up weren't really a thing, you know.

14:41

But I think they're definitely on the rise, but they're definitely rare, you know, statistically speaking.

14:48

Well, the problem that I'm mainly bringing up is not the quantity of them.

14:55

It's the response. Which is to say, you know, we're not going to, I mean, we've talked about this before in a different episode, but basically this idea that, you know, like, we know they happen, right, but then they refuse to,

15:11

I mean, you know, give teachers the ability to defend themselves and their students or give principals or whatever.

15:20

And on top of that, they're basically advertising that, you know, their gun -free zone, so, you know.

15:27

Yeah, there's that. And then, yeah, there's that recent school shooting that happened. I can't remember the one that actually happened, but then the police officers were not allowed to go in and stop the threat.

15:38

You know, they had to sit there and wait for, you know, an unreasonably long time.

15:43

And while, you know, you have an active shooter on the scene, so that's a little bit disturbing, too, for sure.

15:49

Right, right. So, but anyways, keep going. Well, the issue is, yeah, the broader question is, is it wrong or is it sinful?

15:58

What is the broader question? I was just asking you what were the issues that you saw, you know, and so for you it was a lot of, you know, it was certain things growing up, but then now, you know, here in, you know, 2022, it seems like you've got to revisit a lot of these issues and ask yourself, were the, you know, issues, yeah, the arguments that you heard growing up, were they, did they have any?

16:29

Yeah, yeah, were they sufficient? And then, you know, in context of moderate, you know, 2022, do we see that even more or are we just now getting to the point?

16:42

Yeah, I don't know that we're just now getting to the point. I mean, I think we've lost a generation of, you know, we've lost generations of kids to the public school system.

16:53

And it's pretty funny because conservatives are the one that are generally having more kids than those on the left.

17:01

But then those, so we're outbreeding the left, but then the problem is that you send your kids to public school and they turn out like the left, okay?

17:10

Yeah, you go to school and you get taught how to be a racist and be a socialist.

17:16

Yeah, to repent of your white privilege and to be a socialist. And I mean, it's funny, I mean, you know, Luke 640 says a disciple is not above his teacher, but when everyone is fully trained, he will be like his teacher.

17:27

And I think, you know, the left has taken over the public education system and has done so for a while and they're winning, you know?

17:35

So like they're demonstrably winning. Like that's, I guess it's just overwhelmingly the case that, you know, like this idea that you can send your kid who knows nothing about anything to be taught by a bunch of pagans who are taking over by, you know, radical leftist activist agendas, that somehow that they're gonna be able to stand firm, you know, when they're being brainwashed so thoroughly across the board in areas that you're not even aware of, right?

18:02

Like, I mean, the issue is it doesn't matter how, like, it doesn't matter how involved you are as a parent.

18:09

You simply do not know all the ways in which your kids are being brainwashed.

18:15

Right. You know, actively. Yeah, I mean, I've seen plenty of things online where teachers are, you know, putting up posters and whatnot that say, like, they will not tell your parents, you know, if you want to join certain clubs that are going to teach you all about, like,

18:33

LGBTQ, whatever. But, yeah, and that's something that really, I think you're asking, why is it now that so many people are outraged?

18:40

Well, part of why it's happening now that so many people are outraged by it is because, you know,

18:45

Trump essentially went to war against critical race theory in the public school systems, and I think that politicized the issue.

18:52

But I think that that was a good thing. I think that that's one of the best things that he did in his presidency was to raise awareness about what was actually going on.

19:00

And then that caused a lot of individuals to realize that, like, their kids are being indoctrinated as socialists.

19:06

And then, you know, during, you know, the fake pandemic and all that, you have, like, all the

19:14

Zoom classes, and then you would have, you know, these teachers who were essentially, like, now you have parents who are seeing what their kids are being taught and scandalized by what they're being taught.

19:25

And then, you know, the educators on those ends are basically trying to prevent the parents from understanding, you know, what they're actually being taught.

19:34

And so I think that the, you know, general population trust in the public education system due to some of these recent events is at an all -time low in general.

19:45

But then, like, the issue is this has just been going on for years. And I think if you look at the culture and you look at the society,

19:52

I mean, the institutions have been taken over from top to bottom by the left, and there really is a hostile, like, you know, the university system is a hostile in general, and then just public education system in general is actively hostile to, you know, the political right and, you know, anything that would constitute a religious worldview.

20:14

So we're in a society right now that is, you know, throwing over the side of the boat all vestiges of a

20:20

Christian worldview as fast as we possibly can and embracing, you know, radical secularism.

20:26

And so, you know, I think largely, like, you're just, you're looking at a losing proposition.

20:32

And it really doesn't take a lot of rocket science to, I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that, you know, the school systems are overtaken by the left.

20:42

And, like, they're winning. They're teaching our kids. Like, the conservatives are having the kids, they're handing them over to the left to brainwash them, and then they end up, like, what happens is they end up, you know, being useful tools for the left.

20:57

And then, like, you know, for about half the population or so, they, once they get a job, once they settle down, you know, once they get in their mid -30s, then they go back to, a lot of them start taking more of a conservative bent towards at least economic kind of issues because they realize, you know, what it's like to pay taxes and things like that.

21:19

Welcome to the real world. Welcome to the real world. But then, you know, still their worldview has been fundamentally compromised in a wide variety of ways due to their upbringing and education.

21:29

So, I just, I think it's, you know, just talking in generalities,

21:35

I do think, you know, some of these things that have happened recently should cause us to revisit some of those arguments in the past and ask, were they good then?

21:44

And, you know, what, you know, so part of it's a pragmatic question, like, what's actually happening, right?

21:51

I mean, and it's obvious what's happening. I mean, you can have, I mean, you know, just thinking about it as it relates to the church,

21:57

I mean, it's obvious what's happening. You have, you know, individuals who, you know, they raise their kids in the church their whole life and they go to youth group in order to be entertained predominantly.

22:07

And then they, you know, they're being secularized by the school system. And, you know, the public school system has their kids for more hours than parents do, right?

22:17

Yeah. I mean, they do, and they have way more influence than parents have. And that's, you know, it's just, and then they end up turning out to be, you know, communists and, you know, leftists and liberals.

22:28

And, you know, and then, you know, embracing like just this significant societal madness as it relates to all these things.

22:38

And then, you know, big surprise, they leave the church in their, you know, in their college years and never come back.

22:44

And it's like, well, where do you think this started? You know? So, like, what do you think, where did this come from?

22:50

You know? And I think, you know, in an anecdotal way, it's obviously the public school system, you know?

22:56

But then we do have to think through some of the biblical issues involved in that and some of the Bible passages that talk about this and, you know, have that kind of discussion about what are we doing.

23:05

And you need to challenge this basic assumption that it's just okay to, you know, hand your kids over to be educated by pagans and their whole upbringing, you know?

23:14

Mm -hmm. So, basically, your understanding then is that really, I mean, it's been a problem.

23:20

Public schooling has been an issue for a long time, but then now it's gotten so bad that it's basically irredeemable.

23:31

Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I would say that that's probably true. I mean, I would say also, though, that, like, there is this assumption, like, part of the issue with secularism is that there is an assumption of neutrality as if, like, education is neutral.

23:46

And so I think one of the things that's happened is, like, when we were living in a time which, you know, had a lot of shared assumptions, you know, so,

23:55

I mean, growing up, like, living with your boyfriend wasn't a thing that showed up on TV, right?

24:03

Mm -hmm, yeah. Like, you know, living with your girlfriend, like, that isn't the kind of thing that showed up in the sitcoms that we watched growing up.

24:10

And so, like, largely the world I grew up under, like, still, for irrational reasons, it had embraced secularism, but then it still had a lot of shared assumptions with the

24:21

Christian worldview that, like, fornication was taboo, it was somewhat wrong, and, you know, that doesn't mean that people didn't give themselves over to it, it's just you still had a category for it.

24:34

And so, you know, growing up, like, there was a lot of assumptions there that we shared, but then now we're basically, you know, going downhill at breakneck speed.

24:44

Like, we're just tossing a Christian worldview over the edge, and so this lack of shared foundation is becoming more pronounced.

24:52

But, I mean, the issue is, like, you know, there have been, like, there is no neutrality, and education is not neutral, and, like, there's this lie, it's a lie if you think that you can just, like, you can come up with some kind of neutral form of education.

25:10

Like, the issue is, it's gonna, like, it's either you're gonna have a God -centered education or you're gonna have some other idol that's taking the place of God, and inherently that's compromised to some degree.

25:20

And so, like, I think it's a project that has always been doomed to fail, particularly if what's the logic of the project is that education has to be secular.

25:32

That wasn't always the case. I mean, it wasn't always the case that education had, you had to keep God out of education, and you had to try to come up with this neutral kind of education.

25:42

The issue is, there is no neutrality, and education is not neutral, and it's either, you know, God or a different idol, or an idol at that point.

25:51

And so, but I think growing up it was, the dangers weren't as pronounced as what they are now, but then, you know, growing up there was still the same seeds of everything that we see now.

26:03

And, like, what we see now is a logical end of, you know, the things that were happening when

26:08

I was growing up. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. It was a project doomed to fail from the start, you know?

26:14

And it's just been slowly dying, slowly dying, you know, over the years, and then, you know, at this point now, we're in the, you know, the stage where the cancer has metastasized, essentially, and it's just a dumpster fire all around.

26:27

Yeah, and, you know, that reminds me of when I was younger, and, you know,

26:33

I was in public school, obviously. I went to public school my entire life. Well, I mean, I guess not my entire life, but pretty much my entire life.

26:44

Like 95%. And, you know, one of the things

26:49

I heard a lot was the people who were public schooling,

26:57

I mean, who were, like, homeschooling and stuff instead of public schooling, typically they were the more, you know, they were

27:06

Christians overall. And one of the critiques I always heard and that I made too sometimes was, like, number one, like, they're going to be weird because, you know, they were homeschooled, so they're going to be weird now socially.

27:22

But then also you're basically brainwashing them, right? Because you're trying to protect them from the evil public school that wants to teach them whatever, you know, witchcraft or, you know, whatever you're saying they're going to, whatever you're saying they're going to teach.

27:44

So you're basically, like, you're trying to protect them. And at the time

27:51

I thought it was in a negative way because I thought, number one, they're going to be so sheltered that when they get out in the real world there's going to be, like, a big culture shock and then they're just going to go crazy.

28:01

But then, two, I also thought it was a bit of a, like, you're brainwashing them into Christianity.

28:08

Like, you're not giving them a choice, really, when it comes to believing in Christianity or not.

28:15

They need to see the other options before they make a decision. And I think, you know, obviously, like,

28:23

I wasn't the only one saying that. That was a pretty common, you know, pushback to homeschooling at the time.

28:30

But what's interesting is I thought that for so long and this isn't what, you know, this isn't what convinced me of my position when it comes to public schooling and homeschooling, but it was very confirming to see over the last few years how public school is basically, the left and progressives are trying to push specific ideologies through public schooling as a method of, like, essentially brainwashing you, right?

29:05

So they, and then on top of that, they're also actively trying to hide it from parents.

29:12

They're trying to take control away from parents by saying, hey, if you're a student and you don't think your parents are going to be accepting of these views that we're teaching you, then there's ways to get around that.

29:26

And so it was confirming for me to see, oh, they're basically just doing exactly what they said was going to be really bad if you did it.

29:35

Yeah, I mean, you know, education is about trying to brainwash someone in some sense. I mean, if you don't embrace, like, full -on moral relativism, right?

29:44

Then you believe that there is such a thing as truth. And so, like, the goal of instruction at that point is to teach individuals what you believe is true.

29:54

So if there is a category for truth, then you're trying to brainwash them, you're trying to teach... I mean, you are trying to teach them how to think, you know, and teach them what is right, you know, as far as that goes.

30:06

And so unless you've just adopted some kind of principle of agnosticism, but all education is essentially trying to instruct people, okay?

30:15

The difference between right and wrong to some degree, right? And it's almost an inescapable concept, that's what you're trying to do.

30:23

I mean, that's what Hitler was trying to do with his public education system, is to teach everyone how to be good Nazis.

30:29

So, I mean, that's, like, the issue is, like, secularists are doing that. You know, everyone's trying to do that. That's what you're...

30:34

And we shouldn't, like... Like, if you think that the purpose of education is just to present every idea as if it's purely neutral, and there's no such thing as objective reality, you've never read the

30:47

Bible before. So, yeah, Christians, you know, should be unashamedly trying to brainwash their kids. Just like, you know,

30:53

I don't really fault the secularists for trying to brainwash kids either. Like, the issue is

30:58

I fault them for what they're brainwashing them with, what they're trying to brainwash them with. What do you mean you don't fault them for trying to brainwash?

31:07

Well, I just mean, like, this idea of education as a form of trying to brainwash someone, that's just somewhat of an irrational idea, is all

31:18

I'm saying. Okay, okay. Like, meaning, if we're teaching someone right and wrong, like, you can have two postures of education.

31:26

You can have a posture of education that basically says that I'm just a neutral teacher who is just presenting all sides of every issue fairly, and it's up to you to figure out what you believe it to be, right?

31:37

Well, no one's doing that. Yeah, definitely not with the LGBTQ stuff.

31:42

There is no, like, hey, this could be wrong, or it could be right, you know. There's none of that. It just is a fact as far as they're concerned.

31:49

So it's demanded of Christians that Christians teach that way. Let me just, like, take a neutral posture, present you with all available options, and then, you know, it's up to you to decide because I wouldn't want to impose my religion or worldview upon you.

32:05

So that's the demand that Christians take. But then the left is not taking that posture. They're basically saying, you know, you must embrace my view of economics.

32:15

You must embrace my view of gender and sexuality because it's absolutely right, and anyone who disagrees is absolutely

32:23

Hitler and everything else. And so, like, what I'm trying to say is, like, well, I don't fault them for believing in something and trying to influence other people with that belief.

32:34

I fault them for, like, the content of what they're doing. You get what I'm saying?

32:39

Yeah. Like, meaning, like, I think, you know, this idea that education must be neutral, presenting all sides equally, and refusing to take a stand,

32:48

I just think that's nonsense. I mean, like, you know, I want my, you know, math teachers to dogmatically try to impose upon me the rules of mathematics and brainwash me into thinking that 2 plus 2 equals 4 and that 2 plus 2 does not equal 5 because that would be wrong in order that we can have a society that actually works.

33:08

Right, right. So, like, so all I'm trying to say is, yeah, that kind of art, like, that kind of logic, you know, that Christian, like, you have to keep, you know,

33:18

Christianity out of religion so you don't try to brainwash people. It's like, well, what is education, man? Like, what are we trying to do?

33:23

Do you mean Christianity out of public school? Yeah, yeah. Public school or education in general.

33:29

Like, what are we doing other than we are trying to teach what is right? You know, we should be trying to teach what is right.

33:36

Right. And the difference between right and wrong and, you know. Basically training up a child in the way that they should go, right?

33:43

So that when they're older, they do not depart, you know? Right. So if you call that brainwashing, then whatever. Okay, it's brainwashing.

33:49

Okay, I don't care. But, you know, we're going to do it. Okay? Yeah, yeah.

33:55

So. So, with all that being said, you know, there's a lot of really, really,

34:02

I mean, to put it lightly, concerning things going on in the public education system in the

34:07

U .S. right now. Another argument that I heard from a lot of Christians, and even now some,

34:17

I don't know that I hear it as much anymore, but I heard it a lot growing up from Christian families, was this idea of basically wanting to send their kids to public school to be, like you were saying, yeah, salt and light earlier.

34:36

They want to send their kids to public school to be missionaries. So looking at the state of public school now, do you think that that's a legitimate argument to be made for public school?

34:52

Like, hey, it's all right, we all know it's bad, but we need to send our kids there so that they can be missionaries and try and get someone out,

35:01

I guess. Yeah, I mean, it strikes me as just a ridiculous proposition in general.

35:08

Okay, why is that? I think a lot of these arguments, let me just register this, and then we can maybe return to it a little bit.

35:16

I think a lot of these arguments are just, they're not getting at the real motivation to send kids to public school.

35:23

They're just trying to explain the math. Does that make sense? Okay. Meaning, I don't think anyone or very few people are ever sending their kids to public school in order to try to evangelize the public school systems.

35:41

That isn't the primary motive for almost anyone, okay? Yeah, just as a side note, probably like 99 % of all of those people that I heard say that, their kids never were being missionaries in the way that you would send a missionary to Africa or something.

36:04

They were never that. The kids aren't and the parents aren't. Never even close. The kids aren't and the parents aren't, okay? No one's sharing the gospel to anyone, okay?

36:12

That's not what it's about. What I'm trying to say is that's the thing you latch on to to try to think, because that sounds spiritual.

36:20

Does that make sense? Yeah, it sounds selfless. Yeah, so that's the argument that someone came up with that now is being used in service of something else, and so there's other reasons why kids like parents are sending their kids to public school, and that isn't the real reason.

36:35

That's just the thing that's being thrown out as a justification for it, so to speak.

36:43

Registering that, and we could talk about why that's the case, but then leaving that aside, though, as an argument.

36:50

I remember at one of the Q &As that John MacArthur had at his church, he periodically would have questions and answers in the congregation, and I like to listen to those.

37:02

I'm always interested in Q &A kind of stuff in general, but a guy came up to him at one of these, and he was like, every time anyone asks you a question about, you always give them a

37:14

Bible verse, and so what I've been trying to do, and I've been thinking about this for weeks, is to try to ask you a question that you can't just appeal to the

37:25

Bible about. I just want to get your opinion on something that doesn't have a Bible verse to appeal to, so to speak, or whatever, and the question he asked was, what is the weakest part of Grace Community Church?

37:36

So he's trying to get a subjective answer about what is the weakest part of our church, do you think?

37:42

And so MacArthur... Wait, hang on. That's the question that he thought MacArthur was not going to give a

37:48

Bible verse on? Yeah, that was the question he thought, because he was trying to give a subjective, what is your opinion of the weakest area of our church, kind of thing, and MacArthur's answer to that was to go to the

37:58

Bible. Yeah, I feel like that's a pretty easy thing to do, actually.

38:04

Well, what he said was essentially the weakest part of any church is the new believers, right?

38:11

Okay. So the weakest part of our church are just the new Christians that are in our church.

38:17

They're the weakest area in our church because they don't know enough of the truth in order to...

38:23

And they're the most in danger of being influenced by false teachers. They're not ready for the spiritual meat yet.

38:32

They've still got to be on the spiritual milk. Right, right, right. Bible verse. Yeah, passages like that.

38:37

And so they're most in danger of false teachers and being deceived. They're the most...

38:42

They can cause the most damage because they don't know enough yet, right? So that's the weakest area of our church. And so...

38:49

But, I mean, if you think about it that way, I mean, who's the weakest spiritually in your family?

38:55

Oh, the kids. I mean, the kids by far. By far the kids. It's your job to bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the

39:02

Lord. And your kids, they know... Everyone in your family, they know the less that there is to know.

39:10

I mean, supposedly, if you've been reading your Bible faithfully for the past 30 years or whatever,

39:16

I mean, you should know this thing. Yeah, hopefully your kids know more. I mean, hopefully you know more than your kids about the Bible. Yeah, hopefully you do.

39:22

And hopefully there's a vast chasm of difference in knowledge. And so then you're taking kids and you're saying who functionally...

39:32

At very early ages, I mean, you're going into the public school system at four or five years old, and you're taking four or five -year -olds who have never read the

39:40

Bible for themselves once, and you're throwing them to the lions. You're throwing them to adults who have all the tools at their disposal, have thought about all these things, about ways to bash

39:51

God for years, and you're basically saying, all right, here you are. You're going to fundamentally stand.

39:58

You're going to be one of the 300 soldiers or whatever standing against the enemy army or something.

40:06

It's just absurd, man. They're not. And I think evidence, all the evidence that you can see points to the fact that a disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he's fully trained will be just like his teacher, and I think the public school system is winning, and they're failing.

40:27

But I mean, it shouldn't be shocking. This is a dumb idea. Particularly, I mean,

40:32

I think it could make a kind of sense when you're living in a world that is like an Andy Griffith kind of world, you know what

40:38

I mean, where everyone still pretends to be Christian and still shares a lot of your

40:43

Christian values, but when you're living in a world like ours, where the rebellion against God has reached the levels it has reached,

40:53

I mean, they're just lambs to the slaughter men. Yeah, I mean, not only are you thinking about just differences in terms of knowledge when it comes to kids versus adults, but then you've also got to factor in the social pressures that come with sharing the gospel consistently.

41:16

I mean, that's even a thing for adults. I mean, most adults in the Christian church are not sharing the gospel, and it's probably for those two reasons as well.

41:27

Like, hey, I feel like I don't know enough, and what are they going to think of me?

41:34

And I think that's part of why the whole evangelism through friendship has become so popular is because you want to try and negate the social impact of sharing, or the way people will view you when you share the gospel consistently over and over again.

41:56

And so thinking about the fact that really adults don't even do that, they don't share the gospel very often in general.

42:07

So you've got adults thinking that way, and then you're saying, hey,

42:13

I'm sending my kids to school to do the thing that I don't ever do. And I don't think they actually expect their kids to do it.

42:24

I don't know of anyone who had parents who, when they came home from school, their parents were like, all right, tell me, who did you share the gospel with today?

42:32

Yeah, well, they don't know how to do it. They've never seen it being modeled.

42:37

They've never seen it being done, but even if they did, they don't know. The issue is the kid doesn't know enough about the

42:50

Bible. He doesn't know enough about the subjects that he's being taught to even know where the areas of disagreement are.

43:00

Even in high school? Do you think even in high school? Like 16 -year -olds, 17 -year -olds, 18 -year -olds?

43:07

Yeah, I mean, I think at a certain point, that kind of argument might make sense.

43:14

If you were homeschooled or in a private school for years and years of your life, and you have been thoroughly catechized into a

43:21

Christian worldview, you've had very active parents who have very intentionally trained you for a long period of time in order to evaluate.

43:32

I mean, if you're in the kind of situation where you literally had a parent who is basically walking you through the kind of things that you're going to learn in public school in a very intentional way for years and years and years and preparing you to respond to those in a helpful way,

43:49

I think at that point and then your last few years of high school or something, you can live that out, so to speak.

43:58

I think at the very best, in the very best kind of scenario, that's never happening, okay?

44:06

That kind of situation is not – if anyone wants to use that as the counterexample, that's just not happening.

44:14

Show me the person who's doing it. That's a one in 10 million situation that we're talking about, if that.

44:24

So that's not what's happening. But even in that kind of scenario, kids have never been – you're not going to – the system is rigged against them.

44:34

You're not going to be some kind of massive, effective change agent within society in that way.

44:42

The trajectory is set, okay? Meaning if you want to be the kid who's standing up in the class disagreeing with your atheist professor, your grades are probably going to suffer, right?

44:51

And then you're going to be socially ostracized and whatever. And that's fine.

44:57

I don't know. What is the scenario where that triumphant, brave kid stood against the system and won?

45:05

That isn't really how it works. So in the best -case scenario, you have been prepared to interact with the pagans and you survive.

45:17

But what was the good that came from that? Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Especially now, thinking about all of the different ideas that they're trying to teach as truth.

45:29

Right. The things that they're trying to say are good when they're abominations, basically.

45:35

Sure, sure. So, okay, with all that being said, you mentioned something earlier, and I wanted to come back and ask it.

45:45

Well, there's two different things you mentioned that I want to come back to.

45:51

But this first one is, when it comes to this conversation of public school, what exactly...

45:58

So we've talked about how harmful it is for the child, right?

46:05

But then what does it mean for the parent who is willingly sending their kid off to public school?

46:14

Is this in a sin category, or is this an unwise category?

46:21

Is it unloving? Is that what we're saying? What exactly are we saying in terms of what it means for how parents should view sending a kid to public school?

46:35

Yeah, I think the last thing you want to do is come up with a new command that the Bible doesn't give, right?

46:42

Right, right. Over and over again, as you read through the law, one of the things you're going to find is, do not add to my words or do not take away from my words.

46:49

And so I think a lot of individuals for many years have been nervous to basically say, well, sending your kids to public school is sin.

46:58

And what they're doing at that point is they're essentially just saying, well, the Bible doesn't say thou shalt not send your kids to public school.

47:04

So we don't want to invent a command. And I think that that's been persuasive for many.

47:10

But then obviously, I mean, you look at the Bible and there's plenty of ways that you can violate the

47:17

Bible in modern ways that you don't have a specific command for. So you do have to think, are there sins of omission and are there sins of commission?

47:27

I mean, just thinking about modern equivalence, like the Bible never mentions that it's wrong to smoke marijuana or something like that.

47:37

Well, is that sufficient? Just because the Bible doesn't mention this modern thing that we're doing right now, does that mean that it doesn't address the subject?

47:46

Are there commands and principles in the Bible that would necessarily be violated if you get high on weed?

47:55

And I think most people have some intuition to say that it does. And so same thing with porn use or things like that.

48:04

You have to think about the actual commands and principles of Scripture. And so I think a lot of people for many years have wanted particularly to put this topic in a wisdom category.

48:15

And in a wisdom category that, for the most part, is just off limits, don't really take a hard stance on it.

48:22

And I understand why that's the case, because in some ways, there's not...

48:28

If you're just going to ask the question in the abstract, is it a sin to listen to pagans who are trying to turn you into a pagan?

48:39

Well, the issue is it's inescapable. It's an inescapable concept. You're living in a world that's trying to brainwash you, and you're going to have to...

48:48

You can either just become an Amish person or you can try to helpfully engage in some way. And so it's not a matter of whether it's sin.

48:56

It's a matter of... I mean, it's not a matter of are you going to be influenced by pagans trying to mold your worldview.

49:04

It's a matter of what is the wisest way to live in a fallen world where you're surrounded by pagans who are trying to brainwash you, right?

49:13

And so, yeah, I hear that. But then at the same time, the issue is the

49:19

Bible does give a lot of commands and principles that are relevant, right?

49:24

So Psalm 1, blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the ungodly, nor sit in the way of sinners, nor sit in the seat of a scoffer.

49:31

So blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the ungodly. Well, that's a principle that we should be thinking about, right?

49:40

If you want to be blessed in your life, you don't walk in the counsel of the ungodly. Well, what do you call it when you are sending your kids to walk in the counsel of the ungodly for seven hours a day?

49:55

Whatever it is, a standard public education system. They're surrounded by the ungodly.

50:03

The Bible tells us about the importance of who your friends are. So whoever walks with the wise will become wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm.

50:12

You know, you're putting your kids to be surrounded by the foolish of the world, right?

50:18

And not only to be surrounded by them, but to authoritatively submit themselves to their teachers, right?

50:25

Who are the counsel of the wicked. So, you know, you think about that, but then you think about the positive instruction of the parent at that point.

50:33

I mean, think about something like Deuteronomy 6, right? Hero Israel, Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the

50:38

Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children.

50:46

You shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the way, when you lie down, when you rise. You shall bind them on your hands as a sign, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

50:54

You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. So, I mean, we're told to teach diligently to our kids the

51:01

Bible. And then we're told to train up a child the way that they should go. And when they're older, they will not depart. And so you think about all these things together.

51:08

It's a parent's job to train up their kid in the way that they should go. And, you know, you have all these principles of wisdom that essentially says a companion of fools will end up suffering harm.

51:19

And, you know, a disciple's not above his teacher, but when he's fully trained, he'll be like his teacher. So I think you have a lot in the

51:25

Bible that says it's a parent's job to ensure that their child is brought up in the discipline and instruction of the

51:32

Lord. So don't provoke your children to wrath. Bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the world. And then if you're going to hand your children over to, you know, be taught and submit in an authoritative way to individuals who are trying to corrupt their worldview.

51:45

At a certain point, I think it just, like you can say, hey, this is like very, very foolish, right?

51:53

So at the very least, like if we were to make a modest statement on it, it is becoming increasingly on a trajectory much more foolish than it ever was at any time in history, right?

52:07

And so like it, you know, if you can imagine like it was pretty foolish when I was a kid, you know, and now it's like just bafflingly, mind lovingly, stupidly foolish, right?

52:17

And at a certain point, it just, it is a reflection of an abandonment of your basic responsibilities as a parent, right?

52:25

And now whether or not it is that right now, in every case,

52:32

I would say it's hard to imagine it's not, okay? Like it's hard to like imagine at this point that we're not talking about utter and adjunct like folly and stupidity to the point of sinful neglect of the basic responsibilities of parenthood that you have.

52:51

Like it's difficult to imagine that that's not what we're saying, you know, but at the very, you know, in a minimum, it's just catastrophically dumb, you know?

53:01

So now, I mean, I can imagine like, you know, the case of, you know, and everyone likes to bring up the case of like the single mother or something like that, right?

53:09

Like what do you do if you're a single mother? And, you know, I just, I think that's kind of, it's a cheap move because your sympathies go out to the single mother, but then like, you know, most like, what are we talking about?

53:26

At that point, are you talking about the woman whose husband, you know, like the woman who like was in a good marriage and like her husband died and, you know, he didn't have any life insurance or something like that?

53:40

That's not what's the standard run -of -the -mill case. And so, I think there are problems that come like from, like,

53:47

I mean, the vast majority of, you know, single mothers that we're talking about in these kind of scenarios are probably not getting divorced for biblical reasons.

53:54

They're getting divorced for unbiblical reasons, and one of the consequences to that is that now they're going to have to provide for themselves.

53:59

Or, you know, they didn't make a wise choice at some point, and so I'm not commenting on every one of those situations.

54:05

I mean, sometimes a guy's a scoundrel and he leaves, sometimes a girl's a scoundrel and she takes the kids, you know, but like, you can't just look at this as a category to sanctify everything.

54:16

You know, you can't just take this one category of a hard situation and then basically turn that into an entire justification for anyone who wants to send their kids over to the wolves in general.

54:27

But, you know, I think, yeah, like, in the vast majority of these single mother scenarios, like, they're probably not just – you know, neither one is like some purely innocent party, and then there are consequences to certain actions that maybe now, you know, you're in a situation where, like,

54:45

Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, you have to – like, you have no choice but to let your kids be raised by the pagans and hope for the best, right?

54:55

You know, if you're a godly person in that situation that was legitimately abandoned by an unbeliever, then my sympathies go out for you, and you have to do whatever you have to do in order to put a roof over your head in that kind of situation and, you know, without wading into all that.

55:11

So, I wouldn't want to say that, categorically, it's always an act of defiance in every single case, but then the vast majority of people are not in that situation.

55:21

That's the point. I mean, what it is, is, like, you know, you're living in – like, right now, the standard expectation that people have in our society right now is you start off marriage with, like, a double income, no kid kind of perspective on how you're going to run your home.

55:38

So, no one's taking on certain – like, you don't have, like, a husband taking on the role of provider in any absolute way.

55:44

You don't have wives taking on the role of being a homemaker in any absolute way. So, you start off marriage, like, you know, living beyond your means, like, getting yourself in some financial arrangement that requires two incomes, and then you're kind of stuck, right?

55:56

And so, then what happens is you add a kid, you add two kids onto that kind of mix, and everything just gets more expensive, and at no point do you just stop it, you know, stop the madness and say, we're just gonna, you know –

56:09

Downsize a little bit. Downsize, like, we're just gonna, you know, be tight, you know, we're just gonna trust the

56:15

Lord. And so, what happens is you have people who are trapped in this two income kind of things, and then they're of necessity.

56:21

And at any point, they could just, you know, trust the Lord and downsize and get rid of the second car and make sacrifices necessary to do it, you know.

56:31

And I'm not trying to say that that's simple at times, but God will bless you, and, you know, my life is a testimony to saying, well, we're just gonna suffer financially because we're gonna make this work, you know.

56:43

So, with God's help, you know, but the issue is when you're trapped in that kind of arrangement, then you're handing your kids over.

56:50

And I mean, I think the standard Christian in America today is basically they never have devotions, they never talk about – they're not teaching their kids about the

56:58

Bible at all. You know, they're just two income families who both of them have been convinced they have to work.

57:03

Then, you know, their kids are going to public school, like, and to be raised by the pagans, and their parents never talk to them about the

57:11

Bible at all. And even if they did, I mean, you're not – you don't have as much time as the pagans are gonna have, right? So, you're being outnumbered, like, you're one hour a day compared to their seven hour a day, you're fighting a losing project.

57:22

But you're not even doing the one hour a day, and then it's just like, you know, when they come home, your kids are screen addicts, you're a screen addict.

57:29

And then, you know, you're basically at that point, you know, sending up – you're going to a church, you know, sending them off to youth group and hoping that the, you know, your immature youth pastor guy will entertain them enough to like the

57:46

Bible and fix everything that you're not teaching them, right? And, you know, I mean, at that point, it's just like, well, whatever this is all about, okay, this is – like, this is, you know, wherever you want to locate the sin, there's a lot of sin there, you know?

58:01

So, you know, like, and it's just such a big comprehensive mess of sin that at this point, you know, it's just like, we're not even talking about like some kind of hypothetical situation of what do you do if you're in Nazi Germany.

58:14

And if you don't send your kids to public school, you know, you're going to end up in a concentration camp kind of situation.

58:20

Like, we're in a situation right now where just, like, you still have the freedom to not send your kids to be brainwashed by the pagans.

58:27

And if you do, like, if you do send them to be brainwashed by the pagans and they end up like not wanting to get married, you know, when they get out of college because, you know, your goals for them and their life is that they, you know, be successful.

58:39

And, you know, you're actively a person who's discouraging them to get married and start a family because you want them to have an easy financial life.

58:48

And you know what, if they end up just like, you know, instead of getting married, get a pet, you know, and delay marriage until they're 30, you know, and then finally they get married and then they buy another pet, you know, instead of having kids and you never have grandkids.

58:59

And, you know, or even if they never get married and they end up turning out to be like one of the alphabet soup kind of people, like, that's your fault, man.

59:07

You know, like, you're to blame for that. And so, like, it wasn't like you made such a simple, stupid, simply unwise, unwise, you know, sinful, stupid choice, however you want to put it.

59:22

Right. So, what are they doing?

59:55

Well, they're not, you know, here's what they're not doing. They're not having, you know, family worship time, right?

01:00:02

Which, before I got married, I didn't even know that that was a thing that anyone who was a

01:00:08

Christian was supposed to be doing. You know, I'm not going to speak to my Christian friends growing up and whether or not their families did.

01:00:17

I never heard about it, but, you know, I don't know for sure that it wasn't happening. But when

01:00:25

I got married, you know, that was all of a sudden something that I had to do. And I didn't even, even just as, you know, husband and wife, we had to do that.

01:00:35

And I had no idea what I was doing. And I wasn't very committed to it for a long time.

01:00:42

And so, you have people who are not committed to having that type of worship time.

01:00:47

They're not really committed to even reading the Bible for themselves, let alone reading it, you know, to their kids and encouraging their kids to read and study the

01:00:57

Bible regularly. They're not singing together. You know, most Christian families are not attending church regularly.

01:01:04

And even beyond that, they're not involved in a significant way in their local church.

01:01:11

Meaning, you don't, you know, so I'm not talking about the people who go to church on Sunday morning for an hour and then leave.

01:01:17

I'm talking about, you know, involvement throughout the week with your church, spending time with your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who are a part of your local church outside of Sunday and Wednesday, serving your brothers and sisters in Christ.

01:01:32

There's, like, there's not a lot of that going on. And then on top of that, you know, you're sending them, oh, and the things you're watching are not typically edifying in any sort of way to God.

01:01:48

Not, you know, not necessarily to say that there's any issue with watching secular stuff, but then if that's all you're ever watching, and I know we've talked about this before as well.

01:01:57

If that's all you're ever watching and, you know, you're not doing those other things that I've already mentioned and you're sending your kids to a public institution that actively hates

01:02:08

God, I mean, they do, whether people want to admit that or not, they do hate

01:02:13

God, then, you know, I don't know, I don't know who else is to blame then at that point.

01:02:19

If you're doing all of those, it's one thing, you know, it's one thing to attempt a lot of those different things and then, you know, a child of yours still reject

01:02:31

God for some reason, but then to not be doing any of those things and then sending them off to a public education system that hates

01:02:38

God, like, I don't know who else to blame at that point besides the parents, right?

01:02:43

I mean, you could just go to a standard liberal arts college in America today and just see, like,

01:02:48

I mean, I don't know, I mean, my experience going to, you know, different schools, like, you know,

01:02:55

I went to a university, I went to a smaller liberal arts college as well, but then, like, you know, look at the vast majority of people that are inhabiting this university and they're not the kind of people that I would want to marry, you know what

01:03:08

I'm saying? They're not the kind of people that, like, just, I mean, just go back to your own experience, like, are they the kind of people who are strong Christians who are trying to encourage you to be more like Christ?

01:03:18

Like, no, not at all. I mean, those are, you know, like, a needle in a haystack kind of people, and so, like, the issue though is that, you know, if you yourself have experienced a radical transformation in your life, like,

01:03:36

I mean, I'm very different now by God's grace than I used to be growing up, right? And so, like, the issue is, like,

01:03:43

I've, when God saved me, I, my priorities, my values are radically different, but when

01:03:50

I look at the standard public school kid, like, I know where that's coming from, right?

01:03:56

And I know that there's this vast chasm of difference between the way I think and the way they think. And, you know, when

01:04:03

I look at my kids, I've tried to, I mean, we've homeschooled our kids, and I think if there was, like, a great private school option that didn't cost an arm and a leg, we may consider that as well, but, like, we've tried to homeschool our kids, but,

01:04:14

I mean, there's a very big difference between our kids and your standard public school kids. And, you know, like, it's, if you're trying to, you know, teach your kids to, you know, what it means to be a

01:04:27

Christian, what it means to follow the Lord, and, like, there's a path to get them to act just like secular, pagan, worldly people that's pretty obvious, you know?

01:04:35

It's an obvious kind of path, you know? And, you know, I mean, if you just, I mean,

01:04:40

I think if we would just, like, you know, turn them loose and say, all right, you know, I know how they would end up, you know?

01:04:46

And it's not shocking how it works. And so, you know, whether or not it's, like, absolutely a sin in all times and all places,

01:04:54

I don't really think that's the question that should be asked. I think the primary question that we're trying to ask is, right now, in this moment, for the vast majority of people, you know, are they taking responsibility to, you know, train up their child in the way they should go when they're older?

01:05:12

They won't depart, you know? Are they teaching the law diligently to their kids?

01:05:18

Are you ensuring that your kids are brought up in a disciplined instruction of the Lord? Are you just handing them over to be the companion of fools, right?

01:05:27

And to be authoritatively placed themselves under the counsel of the wicked? And I think we know what's happening, you know?

01:05:34

I think we know that we're just embracing folly to our shame and the results of it are very obvious what's happening with that.

01:05:41

Yeah. $50 ,000 going to get a general public education degree only to find that there are no job opportunities available because they didn't learn absolutely anything, you know?

01:06:22

And the public education system in general is a joke. I mean, I was educated in the public education system and it was so boring that I slept through my classes and my teachers would let me because I got

01:06:36

A's on all my tests by sleeping, you know? And so, I mean, it's just a joke. I mean, like, in terms of,

01:06:42

I didn't, you know, the vast majority of stuff you learn is not going to be useful to you in any area of life at all whatsoever, you know?

01:06:49

So, it's a joke of an education system in general and I think, you know, there's a lot of people who are rethinking the whole, like, what was the value of this whole experiment in general kind of thing.

01:07:03

I mean, you could just go to a trade school and go, you know, like, if I would have went to trade school and got a coding job or something like that or just,

01:07:13

I don't even have to go to trade school. I just learned to code on my own. I could probably make three times what I make right now, you know?

01:07:19

Yeah, yeah. And so, there are opportunities now. Or even just welding or carpentry or whatever.

01:07:26

I mean, you're going to make a pretty good living on that, especially right now. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that, in general, you do have to think, is this, like, for many years, you've just been taught that you're a failure or you're a worthless loser if you don't, like, go through the whole public education system and you're going to fail at life.

01:07:43

But I think there's many people who've come to the end of the public education system now and realized it didn't deliver what it was advertised to deliver, you know, particularly in a world that is rapidly changing in the way that it is right now.

01:07:55

And so, we may need to think through things along those lines as well. You know, what is the best stewardship of our time and, you know, how are we going to educate our kids?

01:08:05

And there's obviously no command of the Bible to send your kid to public school either, right? Yeah. You know, the burden of proof is not on the individual to say, like, honestly, and this is where the discussion needs to go, the burden of proof is not on the

01:08:19

Christian parent to make a case from the Bible as to why it's wrong to send your kids to public school.

01:08:27

The burden of proof is to the Christian trying to make a case that we must send our kids to public school.

01:08:34

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Like, where in the Bible does it tell me as a parent that it's my –

01:08:40

I'm morally mandated to let my kids be brainwashed seven hours a day by pagans? And that's a case that's harder to make.

01:08:47

Does that make sense? Yeah. So, you make the case why it's okay. I'm trying to think of a – I'm trying to think of any passage that talks about –

01:08:56

Well, the only thing you can do is, like, when you're Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego living in Babylon after your entire people have been conquered and you've been enslaved and you're forced to be taught the literature and language of the

01:09:07

Chaldeans, well, at that point, do you go along with it or do you, like, try to kill yourself or something like that, right?

01:09:13

But that's not the scenario. This is a voluntarily – like, you're voluntarily enslaving yourself to the pagans at this point, and then you have to ask, well, you make the case.

01:09:21

Don't ask me to make the case. You make the case for why it's okay, right? Burden of proof is on you. I don't accept it.

01:09:27

Mm -hmm. So, in your opinion, is homeschool, like, the better alternative to public education?

01:09:39

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. That's a more complicated subject because I don't –

01:09:45

I mean, I don't know that, you know – like, homeschool could be a wonderful thing if you have, you know, mature

01:09:57

Christians who are devoting themselves to – you know, mature, responsible Christians who are devoting themselves to, you know, doing what

01:10:06

Deuteronomy 6 .4 says, bring your children up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord, and there are a lot of resources out there right now to make it easier, you know, to fill in the gaps where you're insufficient, and so I think that that's a great option that could be pursued.

01:10:20

I mean, the reality is that not everyone has the character needed or the discipline needed to do it well, and, you know, sometimes it's just a matter of education.

01:10:29

You know, sometimes people don't have, like, the education needed to do it well, so, you know, I think there's not – it's difficult to answer in just some simplistic kind of way.

01:10:41

I mean, at the same time, it's just like if you're – you know, if your choices were, like, between – like, if all you had was just – if you were in a situation where your wife does not feel qualified or competent or is – doesn't have the discipline to do it, and you're looking at a situation where they're going to get very poorly educated at home, or they're going to get brainwashed by the pagans,

01:11:14

I don't know that – I don't know that, you know, being poorly educated at home would be the worst kind of thing.

01:11:20

Right, right. In that way, you know, so I don't – it's not entirely clear to me that that's a worse solution than they just be turned into atheist rainbow people, you know, who – you know, so I – so there's that.

01:11:34

But then, you know, I think part of – you know, part of this is related to your placement in the country and other factors like that too, but, you know,

01:11:44

I think homeschooling is to be preferred, you know, if you have someone who is totally just unwilling, unable to take that on,

01:11:53

I think a private school option would be a much better option. And I wish a lot of, you know, Christians would band together and figure out ways to pull education experience and background knowledge to make some of those things happening.

01:12:07

I do think we're going to – I think if we would just turn away from this religious devotion to the pagan education system, we would get more creative as far as that goes.

01:12:16

And so, you know, it's hard to say in terms of just some kind of – it's hard to say beyond just public education is bad.

01:12:27

I mean, it's just like it's obviously just like it's – like at this point, I, you know,

01:12:32

I wouldn't want to send my dog to the public school system at this point. Okay. You know, like in –

01:12:38

I mean, like in general, in general, you know, I think if you train your kid up from a very young age to, you know, be responsible and know,

01:12:47

I would want to like exercise caution even in, you know, what higher education they're going to pursue and make sure that they're pursuing something that are encouraging them at the very least to pursue something that would actually give them a career path and not just, you know, some university experience kind of thing.

01:13:03

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think it's just a harder – you probably want to answer that one more on a case -by -case basis.

01:13:10

What are you looking at? What are you talking about? Okay. That kind of thing. Well, is there anything that you want to say or anything that maybe

01:13:17

I didn't touch on before we end the episode? Yeah. No, I think that, yeah, there's a –

01:13:26

I think my overall perspective of the conversation in general is that at this moment in history when you understand the forces that are at work within our society in general, you know, we really do need like Christians to wake up and quit, you know, be essentially breeding stock for the pagans, and that's what we are.

01:13:47

So, instead of taking on our responsibility to train up our children in the way that they should go, like, what we're doing is we're essentially breeding cows for the secular left, and, you know, at some point, somewhere along the line, we have to wake up and understand that, like, hey, you know, you want to change our culture, change our society, quit giving your kids over to the pagans to be brainwashed by them, you know, and that's what

01:14:10

I wish we would do. Okay. All right. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap up the episode on.

01:14:17

Hopefully, you've learned something about this. I know being someone who was a part of the public education system myself, it definitely slanted my view, and really in ways that I did not realize it would until much later in life.

01:14:38

And it kind of did, I mean, in a sense, they really are, you know, brainwashing, if you want to call it that.

01:14:45

I think pretty much, we've talked about this too on the episode, pretty much any kind of education is going to be, you know, some form of brainwashing, and public education is no different.

01:14:59

I mean, it's presented as a secular type of education.

01:15:04

It's not meant to teach anything about God or Christianity, and in doing that, in pursuing that, they actively leave out all traces of God and spiritual anything.

01:15:19

So, hopefully, you know, this conversation can be something that helps you guys out there listening to realize that, or even just confirm, you know, if you're already thinking this way, or you've been seeing people talking online this way about the issues with public education, then, you know, part of why we want to have these conversations is to encourage people who are already thinking this way.

01:15:47

And, you know, basically trying to tell you, hey, you're not crazy. You're just seeing things for what they are right now.

01:15:55

And so, we want these types of conversations to be encouraging for you and equipping you to be able to lead your family well, raise your children well, especially with something like this.

01:16:09

So, we hope you are encouraged, and we thank you for all the support you guys give week in and week out, and we look forward to having you on the next one.

01:16:48

If you would like to be Bible bashed personally, then please know that we also offer free biblical counseling, which you can take advantage of by emailing us.

01:16:58

Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.