Is Sending Your Children To Public School Child Abuse?

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The World’s Doom and the Hope of Salvation

People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio.

...found in Christ, therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty God is hanging over our head.

They will hear his words, they will not act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish.

God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the Father, where he sits now to make intercession for us.

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

The Public School Debate and the Meaning of Child Abuse

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask. We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll seek to answer the age-old question, is sending your children to public school child abuse?

Now, I think this is one of those subjects where I'm going to be uniquely qualified to be able to contribute to our discussion, and you as well, Tim, because we have both been involved in the public school system.

Well, actually, I say that. Did you go to public school?

Yeah.

Okay, you did. Oh, that's right.

I was homeschooled for a little bit and then went to a private school, and then most of my childhood went to public school.

Oh, that's right, because you played basketball and stuff like that, right?

Yep.

Yeah, so we're going to be uniquely qualified to be able to speak to this subject. Now, if you don't know, public schooling has, in my opinion, has been a subject that has come under fire recently with a lot of developments that have been going on over the last several years.

But, Tim, has it always been this way and that way, and I've just never noticed where there's a lot of people pushing back on the idea of even going to public school in the first place, or is this a relatively new development that's gained a lot of popularity over the last few years?

Yeah, I mean, growing up in the church, we had our own homeschool versus public school versus private school kind of debates along those lines. And so I remember listening to those kind of arguments. I think as a person who went to public school, we had certain arguments that we made to talk about the validity of doing that.

So this was a live conversation growing up. I think one of the things that you're noticing is that those arguments that have been made for years as it relates to these subjects, there's a substantial movement of people who are no longer finding them persuasive, whether you're talking about Christians or you're talking about popular conservative voices out there, like individuals like Matt Walsh or things like that.

And so I think there is a lot of anti-public school rhetoric that is being put forward, particularly as it relates to individuals in the Reformed Christian world at this point, considering where we're at in history.

And so I think it's a topic that's been discussed for many years now, and I think you're finding yourself in a moment where you have a lot more people who are essentially calling into question the project of sending your kids to public school at this point now.

So what's your opinion? Is it abuse to send your kids to public school?

Public School as Harmful Formation

Yeah, I want to register my personal distaste for the word abuse, because again, and I've done this at various points, because I don't know that that word is entirely clear, but then it does make for a good podcast title, so we'll leave it there for the sake of that.

Meaning I don't precisely know what we're talking about when we're using the term abuse in general, and abuse is a word that has such a broad semantic domain that I don't know that it's always entirely helpful, but then to get to the broader point, right now at our point in history, and our location in the globe and everything else, is sending your children to public school, child abuse, meaning abuse as a stipulated term to mean something that is harmful to your kids, whether you're talking about something physically harmful, whether you're talking about harmful to their formation as Christians, harmful to the formation of their character, that sort of thing, I would say that certainly my position would be that sending your kids to public school is doing more harm than good at the very least.

So yeah, I think it's a form of child abuse for sure.

Okay, so what exactly is harmful about it? I mean, what's the matter with public school that would make you say, hey, it's akin to abusing a child, it's causing harm to a child?

Yeah, I mean, I don't even know where to start. The difficulty is I don't know where to start trying to answer a question along those lines. Maybe it'd be helpful just to think in terms of some of the arguments that we made growing up and thought about growing up.

I mean, these are arguments that I thought were sufficient and acceptable, but I graduated in 2000, so I guess I'm the first millennial class as far as that goes, meaning that I graduated high school at the millennium.

But then, yeah, I think growing up, going to public school, I think there's obviously dangers of going to public school that I faced growing up. I mean, I think when you put a bunch of hormone-ridden kids in close proximity to one another, there are certain things that are obviously not helpful to an individual that are related to just temptations with members of the opposite sex, and pressure to enter into certain relationships, and just garden-variety lust and temptation, and those sorts of things that are pervasive, and there's a lot of pressure growing up.

And so growing up, I think there were temptations largely along those areas. The anti-God kind of worldview in the public school system when I was going to school wasn't as in-your-face as it is right now, but it was certainly there.

I mean, we'd have teachers that would bring up the topic of God and religion, but it wasn't just this wholesale assault on it at every single point. I would say that going along the lines of sexual temptation and things along those lines being significant factors growing up, there's also, I think, the worldview, and a lot of people don't realize that the worldview of these secular educators is problematic in a variety of reasons, and I think we talked about this in different episodes, with just the whole follow-your-heart kind of worldview that we're here to be happy, happiness is the purpose of our existence, and when you live and breathe in a situation, and are being taught in an educational environment that really doesn't share all the same assumptions that you share, it has a dramatically different worldview and a different perspective of the earth.

I mean, I think a lot of things that we were prepared for, we were prepared for interacting with our science teachers on the subject of evolution to some degree, but then a lot of the philosophy that undergirded the entire educational project we were probably not taught as well of.

But I mean, I think there were arguments that were made at that point that I would say at different parts of my life I found more persuasive than I do nowadays, so to speak, and so I mean, I think the general arguments that we were making during those days were just, you know, if you take your kids out of public school, then they're going to end up like, you know, Christians are supposed to be salt and light in the fallen world, right?

And if you take kids out, then it's just going to get worse, and we're going to lose our preservative effect, and so that was one argument that was commonly made. Another argument that was commonly made was essentially the argument that, you know, kids need to be socialized, and so, you know, and I think growing up that I looked at kids who were like homeschooled or private schooled, and I thought that they were somewhat dorky, you know, if I want to put it in a crass kind of way, and the reason why I thought they were somewhat dorky is because they, you know, weren't aware of all the dirty jokes that everyone was telling, and, you know, they didn't understand all the same pop cultural references, and, you know, essentially that's what socialization meant, was this pervasive kind of immaturity and, you know, crassness and everything else, and so, you know, I think I understood those arguments.

I probably accepted those arguments a little bit growing up, but I do think that, you know, I don't think that they were good arguments then, and then now thinking about just the trajectory of public education in general in our country and where things are going right now, I mean, there are like much more, like as serious as those temptations that I'm talking about were for me, it seems like there are much greater, you know, areas of danger now to where we're not even, like you have to kind of, you have to revisit those arguments from the past to begin with and ask were they good to begin with, but then you also have to consider, you know, where we're at right now in terms of, you know, right now, like, I mean, before the danger was that, you know, you would, like there's all the problems that come from just, you know, the standard person, you know, and I wasn't a person who just had like, you know, girlfriend after girlfriend after girlfriend in high school, and, you know, we were taught to avoid those kind of things, but there's still temptations along those lines, but then, you know, the danger then was, you know, premarital sex was something that was being normalized growing up for me to where, like, you know, there was an expectation, you know, prom night that everyone would, you know, go and party and do all sorts of things like that, and I think parents could protect their kids from, you know, party culture and that kind of stuff to some degree, but then now, like, I mean, the dangers are that you're going to be brainwashed into thinking that you're a member of the opposite gender and then have, you know, school officials essentially encouraging you to pursue legal emancipation from your parents and then have a government funded, you know, sterilization that you're to undertake because, you know, there are now fads and pressures that are associated with just, I mean, many girls, like, right now are tempted towards transgenderism as a fad and it's just, if you look at the statistics on it, it's pretty crazy, like, how common this actually is and the gender fluidity nonsense and all that, and, you know, and I think just, you know, growing up, we didn't grow up as kids, like, it really, like, social media wasn't a thing and so, you know, whatever happened at public school kind of stayed at school, you know, and then you could have an escape from that and now you have individuals who are basically just, you know, facing constant pressure and, you know, I dislike the term bullying in general for other reasons, but, I mean, there is a reality that there are kids who get picked on by other sinful kids and it doesn't end when they leave the classroom and everything else and so there's a lot of, like, there's a lot of issues right now and, you know,.

The Response to School Shootings

Yeah, you can, talking, I don't mean to cut you off, but I was thinking about this, you know, even as it relates to, like, the, you know, public school shootings that have been happening, I mean, it seems like just even sending your kids to public school, they refuse to protect them in the way that's necessary, right?

When a school shooting does, I mean, I don't want to over, I don't want to exaggerate the, like, statistical danger of being shot in public school, but then, like, there are, like, those cases are on the rise and then I think they're on the rise in part due to the fact that so many kids are, you know, basically addicted to all these psychotropic drugs and everything else, so that's in part, but then the responses when these school shootings actually happen don't leave you very encouraged and that's kind of your point.

Along those lines and so, like, they're, like, you know, school shootings for me growing up weren't really a thing, you know, but I think they're definitely on the rise, but they're definitely rare, you know, statistically speaking.

Well, the problem that I'm mainly bringing up is not the quantity of...

It's the response.

Right. It's the response, which is to say, you know, we're not going to... I mean, we've talked about this before in a different episode, but basically this idea that, you know, like, we know they happen, right, but then they refuse to, I mean, you know, give teachers the ability to defend themselves and their students or give principles or whatever, and on top of that, they're basically advertising that, you know...

Yeah, gun-free zone.

They're gun-free zone, so, you know...

Yeah, there's that and then, yeah, there's that recent school shooting that happened. I can't remember the one that actually happened, but then the police officers were not allowed to go in and stop the threat.

You know, they had to sit there and wait for, you know, an unreasonably long time and while, you know, you have an active shooter on the scene, so that's a little bit disturbing too, for sure.

Right, right.

But anyways, keep going.

The Public School System as a Losing Proposition

Well, the issue is, yeah, the broader question is, is it wrong or is it sinful? What is the broader question?

I was just asking you what were the issues that you saw, you know, and so for you it was a lot of, you know, it was certain things growing up, but then now, you know, here in, you know, 2022, it seems like you've got to revisit a lot of these issues and ask yourself were the, you know, issues...

Arguments.

Yeah, the arguments that you heard growing up, were they... Sufficient. Yeah, yeah, were they sufficient and then, you know, in context of moderate, you know, 2022, do we see that even more or are we just now getting to the point?

Yeah, I don't know that we're just now getting to the point. I think we've lost a generation of, you know, we've lost generations of kids to the public school system and it's pretty funny because conservatives are the one that are generally having more kids than those on the left.

Right.

But then those, so we're outbreeding the left, but then the problem is that you send your kids to public school and they turn out like the left, okay?

Yeah, you go to school and you get taught how to be a racist and be a socialist.

Yeah, to repent of your white privilege and be a socialist. I mean, it's funny, I mean, you know, Luke 640 says, a disciple is not above his teacher, but when everyone is fully trained, he will be like his teacher.

And I think, you know, the left has taken over the public education system and has done so for a while and they're winning, you know, so like they're demonstrably winning. It's just overwhelmingly the case that, you know, like this idea that you can send your kid who knows nothing about anything to be taught by a bunch of pagans who are taking over by, you know, radical leftist activist agendas that somehow that they're going to be able to stand firm, you know, when they're being brainwashed so thoroughly across the board in areas that you're not even aware of, right?

Like, I mean, the issue is it doesn't matter how, like it doesn't matter how involved you are as a parent, you simply do not know all the ways in which your kids are being brainwashed, you know, actively.

Yeah, I mean, I've seen plenty of things online where teachers are, you know, putting up posters and whatnot that say like they will not tell your parents, you know, if you want to join certain clubs that are going to teach you all about like LGBTQ, whatever.

Yeah, and that's something that really, I think you're asking, why is it now that so many people are outraged? Well, part of why it's happening now that so many people are outraged by it is because, you know, Trump essentially went to war against critical race theory in the public school systems.

And I think that politicized the issue. But I think that that was a good thing. I think that that's one of the best things that he did in his presidency was to raise awareness about what was actually going on.

And then that caused a lot of individuals to realize that like their kids are being indoctrinated as socialists. And then, you know, during the, you know, the fake pandemic and all that, you have like all the Zoom classes and then you would have, you know, these teachers who were essentially, like now you have parents who are seeing what their kids are being taught and scandalized by what they're being taught.

Right.

And then, you know, the educators on those end are basically trying to prevent the parents from understanding, you know, what they're actually being taught. And so I think that the, you know, general population trust in the public education system due to some of these recent events is at an all-time low in general.

But then like the issue is this has just been going on for years. And I think if you look at the culture and you look at the society, I mean, the institutions have been taken over from top to bottom by the left and there really is a hostile, like, you know, the university system is a hostile in general and then just public education system in general is actively hostile to, you know, the political right and, you know, anything that would constitute a religious worldview.

So we're in a society right now that is, you know, throwing over the side of the boat all vestiges of a Christian worldview as fast as we possibly can and embracing, you know, radical secularism. And so, you know, I think largely like you're just, you're looking at a losing proposition and it really doesn't take a lot of rocket science to, I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that, you know, the school systems are overtaken by the left and like they're winning, they're teaching our kids.

Like the conservatives are having the kids, they're handing them over to the left to brainwash them and then they end up, like what happens is they end up, you know, being useful tools for the left. And then like, you know, for about half the population or so, they, once they get a job, once they settle down, you know, once they get in their mid 30s, then they go back to, a lot of them start taking more of a conservative bent towards at least economic kind of issues because they realize, you know, what it's like to pay taxes and things like that.

Welcome to the real world.

Welcome to the real world, but then, you know, still their worldview has been fundamentally compromised in a wide variety of ways due to their upbringing and education. So I just, I think it's, you know, just talking in generalities, I do think, you know, some of these things that have happened recently should cause us to revisit some of those arguments in the past and ask, were they good then?

And, you know, what, you know, so part of it's a pragmatic question, like what's actually happening, right? I mean, and it's obvious what's happening. I mean, you can have, I mean, you know, just thinking about it as it relates to the church, I mean, it's obvious what's happening.

You have, you know, individuals who, you know, they raise their kids in the church their whole life and they go to youth group in order to be entertained predominantly. And then they, you know, they're being secularized by the school system.

And, you know, the public school system has their kids for more hours than parents do, right? And so, I mean, they do, and they have way more influence than parents have. And that's, you know, it's just, and then they end up turning out to be, you know, communist and, you know, leftist and liberals and, you know.

And then, you know, embracing just this significant societal madness as it relates to all these things. And then, you know, big surprise, they leave the church in their college years and never come back.

And it's like, well, where do you think this started, you know? So, like, where do you think, where did this come from, you know? And I think, you know, in an anecdotal way, it's obviously the public school system, you know.

But then we do have to think through some of the biblical issues involved in that and some of the Bible passages that talk about this and have that kind of discussion about what are we doing. And you need to challenge this basic assumption that it's just okay to, you know, hand your kids over to be educated by pagans and their whole upbringing, you know.

Education, Neutrality, and the Duty to Train Children

So, basically, your understanding then is that really, I mean, it's been a problem, public schooling has been an issue for a long time. But then now it's gotten so bad that it's basically irredeemable.

Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, I would say that that's probably true. I mean, I would say also, though, that, like, there is this assumption, like, part of the issue with secularism is that there is an assumption of neutrality as if, like, education is neutral.

And so, I think one of the things that's happened is, like, when we were living in a time which, you know, had a lot of shared assumptions, you know. So, I mean, growing up, like, living with your boyfriend wasn't a thing that showed up on TV, right?

Yeah.

Like, you know, living with your girlfriend, like, that isn't the kind of thing that showed up in the sitcoms that we watched growing up. And so, like, largely the world I grew up under, like, still, for irrational reasons, it had embraced secularism, but then it still had a lot of shared assumptions with the Christian worldview that, like, fornication was taboo, it was somewhat wrong.

And, you know, that doesn't mean that people didn't give themselves over to it. It's just you still had a category for it. And so, you know, growing up, like, there was a lot of assumptions there that we shared.

But then now we're basically, you know, going downhill at breakneck speed. Like, we're just tossing a Christian worldview over the edge. And so, like, this lack of shared foundation is becoming more pronounced.

But, I mean, the issue is, like, you know, like, there have been, like, there is no neutrality. And education is not neutral. And, like, there's this lie, it's a lie if you think that you can just, like, you can come up with some kind of neutral form of education.

Like, the issue is, it's gonna, like, it's either you're gonna have a God-centered education or you're gonna have some other idol that's taking the place of God. And inherently that's compromised to some degree.

And so, like, I think it's a project that has always been doomed to fail. Particularly if once the logic of the project is that education has to be secular. And that wasn't always the case. I mean, it wasn't always the case that education had, you had to keep God out of education and you had to try to come up with this neutral kind of education.

I mean, the issue is there is no neutrality and education is not neutral. And it's either, you know, God or a different idol or an idol at that point. And so, but I think growing up it was, I mean, the dangers weren't as pronounced as what they are now.

But then, you know, growing up there was still the same seeds of everything that we see now. And, like, what we see now is a logical end of, you know, the things that were happening when I was growing up.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah.

So it was a project doomed to fail from the start, you know. Then it's just been slowly dying, slowly dying, you know, over the years. And then, you know, at this point now we're in the, you know, the stage where the cancer has metastasized, essentially.

And it's just a dumpster fire all around.

Yeah, and, you know, that reminds me of when I was younger and, you know, I was in public school, obviously. I went to public school my entire life. Well, I mean, I guess not my entire life, but pretty much my entire life, like 95%.

And, you know, one of the things I heard a lot was the people who were public schooling, I mean, who were, like, homeschooling and stuff instead of public schooling. Typically, they were the more, you know, they were Christians overall.

And one of the critiques I always heard, and that I made too sometimes, was, like, number one, like, they're going to be weird because, you know, they were homeschooled. So they're going to be weird now socially.

But then also, you're basically brainwashing them, right, because you're trying to protect them from the evil public school that wants to teach them whatever, you know, witchcraft. Or, you know, whatever you're saying they're going to teach.

So you're basically, like, you're trying to protect them. And at the time, I thought it was in a negative way because I thought, number one, they're going to be so sheltered that when they get out in the real world, there's going to be, like, a big culture shock.

And then they're just going to go crazy. But then, two, I also thought it was a bit of a, like, you're brainwashing them into Christianity. Like, you're not giving them a choice, really, when it comes to believing in Christianity or not.

They need to see the other options before they make a decision. And I think, you know, obviously, like, I wasn't the only one saying that. That was a pretty common, you know, pushback to homeschooling at the time.

But what's interesting is I thought that for so long. And this isn't what, you know, this isn't what convinced me of my position when it comes to public schooling and homeschooling. But it was very confirming to see over the last few years how public school is basically the left and progressives are trying to push specific ideologies through public schooling as a method of, like, essentially brainwashing you, right?

And then on top of that, they're also actively trying to hide it from parents. They're trying to take control away from parents by saying, hey, if you're a student and you don't think your parents are going to be accepting of these views that we're teaching you, then there's ways to get around that.

And so, it was confirming for me to see, oh, they're basically just doing exactly what they said was going to be really bad if you did it.

Yeah, I mean, you know, education is about trying to brainwash someone in some sense. I mean, if you don't embrace, like, full-on moral relativism, right, then you believe that there is such a thing as truth.

Right, yeah, yeah.

And so, like, the goal of instruction at that point is to teach individuals what you believe is true.

Right.

So, if there is a category for truth, then you're trying to brainwash them, you're trying to teach I mean, you are trying to teach them how to think, you know, and teach them what is right, you know, as far as that goes.

And so, unless you've just adopted some kind of principle of agnosticism, but all education is essentially trying to instruct people, okay?

Right.

The difference between right and wrong to some degree, right? And it's almost an inescapable concept, that's what you're trying to do. I mean, that's what Hitler was trying to do with his public education system, is to teach everyone how to be good Nazis.

So, I mean, that's, like, the issue is, like, secularists are doing that. You know, everyone's trying to do that. And we shouldn't, like, if you think that the purpose of education is just to present every idea as if it's purely neutral and there's no such thing as objective reality, you've never read the Bible before, so, yeah, Christians, you know, should be unashamedly trying to brainwash their kids.

Just like, you know, I don't really fault the secularists for trying to brainwash kids either. Like, the issue is I fault them for what they're brainwashing them with, what they're trying to brainwash them with.

What do you mean you don't fault them for trying to brainwash?

Well, I just mean, like, this idea of education as a form of trying to brainwash someone, that's just somewhat of an irrational idea, is all I'm saying.

Okay, okay.

Like, meaning if we're teaching someone right and wrong, like, you can have two postures of education. You can have a posture of education that basically says that I'm just a neutral teacher who's just presenting all sides of every issue fairly and it's up to you to figure out what you believe it to be, right?

Well, no one's doing that.

Yeah, definitely not with the LGBTQ stuff. There is no, like, hey, this could be wrong or it could be right, you know. There's none of that. It just is a fact as far as they're concerned.

So it's demanded of Christians that Christians teach that way.

Right.

Let me just, like, take a neutral posture, present you with all available options, and then, you know, it's up to you to decide because I wouldn't want to impose my religion or worldview upon you. So that's the demand that Christians take.

But then the left is not taking that posture. They're basically saying, you know, you must embrace my view of economics. You must embrace my view of gender and sexuality because it's absolutely right.

And anyone who disagrees is absolutely Hitler and everything else. And so, like, what I'm trying to say is, like, well, I don't fault them for believing in something and trying to influence other people with that belief.

I fault them for, like, the content of what they're doing.

Okay.

You get what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Like, meaning, like, I think, you know, this idea that education must be neutral, presenting all sides equally and refusing to take a stand, I just think that's nonsense. I mean, like, you know, I want my, you know, math teachers to dogmatically try to impose upon me the rules of mathematics and brainwash me into thinking that 2 plus 2 equals 4 and that 2 plus 2 does not equal 5 because that would be wrong in order that we can have a society that actually works.

Right, right.

So, like, so all I'm trying to say is, yeah, I, like, that kind of art, like, that kind of logic, you know, that Christian, like, you have to keep, you know, Christianity out of religion so you don't try to brainwash people.

It's like, well, what is education, man? Like, what are we trying to do?

Do you mean Christianity out of public school?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Public school or education in general. Like, what are we doing other than we are trying to teach what is right? You know, we should be trying to teach what is right.

Right.

And the difference between right and wrong and, you know.

Basically training up a child in the way that they should go.

Right.

So that when they're older they do not depart, you know.

Right.

So if you call that brainwashing, then whatever. Okay, it's brainwashing.

Okay.

I don't care. But, you know, we're going to do it.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

So.

So with all that being said, you know, there's a lot of really, really, I mean, to put it lightly, concerning things going on in the public education system in the U .S. right now. Another argument that I heard from a lot of Christians, and even now some, I don't know that I hear it as much anymore, but I heard it a lot growing up from Christian families was this idea of basically wanting to send their kids to public school to be.

Missionaries.

Like you were saying, yeah, salt and light earlier. They want to send their kids to public school to be missionaries. So looking at the state of public school now, do you think that that's a legitimate argument to be made for public school?

Like, hey, it's all right, we all know it's bad, but we need to send our kids there so that they can be missionaries and try and get someone out, I guess.

Yeah, I mean, it strikes me as just a ridiculous proposition in general.

Okay, why is that?

Now, I think a lot of these arguments, let me just register this, and then we can maybe return to it a little bit. I mean, I think a lot of these arguments are just, they're not getting at the real motivation to send kids to public school.

They're just trying to explain the math. Does that make sense? Meaning, I don't think anyone or very few people are ever sending their kids to public school in order to try to evangelize the public school system.

That isn't the primary motive for almost anyone.

Yeah, just as a side note, probably like 99 of all of those people that I heard say that, their kids never were being missionaries in the way that you would send a missionary to Africa or something.

They were never that.

The kids aren't and the parents aren't.

Never even close.

The kids aren't and the parents aren't, okay? Like, no one's sharing the gospel to anyone, okay? So, that's not what it's about. That's just, what I'm trying to say is that's the thing you latch onto to try to think, like, because that sounds spiritual.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, it sounds selfless.

Yeah, so that's the argument that someone came up with that now is being used in service of something else. And so, there's other reasons why kids, like, parents are sending their kids to public school and it's not, like, that isn't the real reason.

That's just the thing that's being thrown out as justification for it, so to speak. So, registering that, and we can talk about why that's the case, but then, like, leaving that aside, though, as an argument.