1990's Mormon Radio Dialogue on Deification and Theosis

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr White call now at 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one And now with today's topic here is

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James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. My name is James White.

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We are sort of here today. We are live, but only barely We're sort of running on six out of eight cylinders

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That's just myself. Everybody else seems to be fine, but we're we're put some long here just barely and So we're hopefully going to be able to bring you something worthwhile and it's going to help that I did want anyways to a play some sections of a

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Debate a radio debate that is available in mp3 format only to play certain sections of it and The reason being that we are going to be

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In Salt Lake City next a weekend. I can't believe it's coming up that quickly I certainly don't feel prepared, but we're gonna be in Salt Lake City at the general conference the

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Mormon Church and The evening of our Saturday outreach. We're going to be engaging in a debate with dr

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Martin Tanner a Mormon attorney on the subject of Deification or specifically can men become gods

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I don't know if it's going to focus on the early church doctrine or just what it's gonna be focused upon as as of yet So it depends on I suppose my opponent's opening statement.

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I intend to focus primarily upon the the doctrinal teaching But to be that as it may

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I have been preparing and one of the ways I prepare is I if I have access

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To anything that my opponents have done in the past and I will study that if I have been on the air with them for example,

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I will take the time to to listen to the encounters we've had before and So what

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I've been doing is I have been listening to sections of some of the radio programs that I did Back in the early to mid 1990s with Martin Tanner as the host of the program, but as one of the primary

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Antagonists as far as my position was concerned along with Van Halen and just to get you an idea of The flavor the temperature shall we say of these particular programs

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I'm going to play some sections and you'll notice and I would suggest you download all of 441 and 442 from our mp3 site if you'd like to listen to The two programs are recorded six months apart there's one section

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I could play a section where I can barely get a word in edgewise and It is very

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Mr. Tanner's frequently using terms like absurd and ridiculous and and pretty much in -your -face type of a situation and these of course recorded in Salt Lake City, so you've got a situation where you're in Utah and You are in a small radio studio the host of programs

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Mormon you have a Mormon Guest in the person of Van Halen then you have myself and of course and you're taking phone calls not exactly a

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An evenly balanced situation, which is one thing. I'm looking forward to in a debate is we have even amounts of time but As I was listening to these programs

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I would record them in mp3 format load them on mp3 player, and I was hiking

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Squaw Peak a couple days ago listening to this program and All of a sudden

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I hear this phone call, and I had it nice and queued up And then I said you know there's this big blank spot down here

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I'll go down there and delete that well that moved the queue So I'm gonna have to play around to get the queue right again again here but a phone call comes in and I found it absolutely fascinating you may recall from last week the fact that we mentioned what has

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Taken place in regards to Daniel C. Peterson and dr.

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Peterson is one of the main Individuals in the

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Organization called farms the foundation for ancient research and Mormon studies and last week we played for you a section of Dr.

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Peterson responding to Bill McKeever on the subject of Theosis and in fact that let me just play you a little section of that I mean this has already been responded to and the fact that they keep bringing this up regardless of the fact is just amazing to me well,

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I would say we keep bringing it up because it's true and I'd be willing to go ahead go head -to -head with any of those people on this issue any day of the week

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Yeah, let's let's make sure everybody heard that it didn't sound very loud in my headphones I'd be willing to go ahead go head -to -head with any of those people on this issue any day of the week

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Okay, so now did you catch that voice? now I Recognize that voice now having been on the air with dr.

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Peterson on KTKK he and Bill Hamblin and Ann Martin Tanner again the three of them versus me and But when

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I was doing the radio programs, we're gonna listen to today. I had not yet encountered

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Dr. Peterson as far as having heard him speak so Imagine my surprise and I don't remember now.

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This is over a decade ago and You do so many radio programs and so many different topics and so many different things that I don't recall all the details anymore, but I Do not have any recollection of ever having realized that in the midst of this rather raucous going back and forth with Van Hale and and Martin Tanner especially

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Martin Tanner van only once in a while gets really animated. It's it's mr. Tanner. That's mainly animated as I'm Climbing up Squaw Peak.

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I hear this call now. I remember the call. I remembered someone called in focused on x17 and Remember, this is a program that started off with my specifically mentioning the ensign article that appeared in 1988

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That was written by Daniel C Peterson and Stephen Ricks on the subject of theosis and deification

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I I had specifically written a Response that included that particular ensign article in it.

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And so I've mentioned Peterson I have specifically refuted assertions that Daniel Peterson has made so imagine my surprise as I'm crunching up the

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Squaw Peak to hear the phone call and I realized instantly That Dan on the phone is

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Daniel C Peterson Here a BYU professor is calling into a program where his own article has been specifically critiqued

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He doesn't identify himself does not try to rehabilitate Himself does not try to answer any of the criticisms that has been made of his material at all

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But focuses on something else now, you know as well as I know That both

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Van Hale and Martin Tanner knew who this was on the phone They knew this was Dan Peterson just like Van Hale knew that it was

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Bill Hamblin that called in a few late years later and That started the whole discussion of John 10 and year gods and all sorts of things that it's on our website if you want to go there and look at it

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The correspondence was was prompted by a telephone call a guy who identified himself as Bill Well, it wasn't

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Bill. It was William Hamblin from Brigham Young University. So isn't it interesting? that when

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You know a little old Baptist minister comes up to Salt Lake City that you have a

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Mormon attorney a Mormon apologist and a Mormon context and BYU professors calling in and then and not to you know, not to Many years later.

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You've got Dan Peterson So I'd be willing to go to go head -to -head with any of those people on this issue any day of the week

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I'd be willing to go to go head -to -head with any of those people on this issue any day of the week. Yeah, uh -huh and Seemingly but only in only in an anonymous way because He came on the program here.

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So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna play you the phone call And it goes back and forth.

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It's quite lengthy I'll play you the phone call and then I'll play you the rest of that particular program And again, you can listen to these downloading.

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This is specifically number 442 is the mp3

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Format file on our website if you want to download that and listen to the whole thing I'd I'd suggest it to you.

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It is it is quite quite interesting But now this is this isn't the professional way to do it

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But like I said, I lost my cue when I tried to cut out a space later on So, let me say I can find it here and y 'all get to listen with the father

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So if you want to take it back to the occasion, oh very close Dan. You're on the air with our guests I have a question for Reverend white.

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He's made a great deal of the gulf of the chasm between Okay, there it is that boy talk about a good guess

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That's the beginning of the call listen to the voice you'll see it's the same voice as we are playing in that other section where Of course we we hear.

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Oh Where to go People on this issue any day of the week I'd be willing to go to go head -to -head with any of those people on this issue any day of the week

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So that's so that's Dan Peterson, that's his voice and what we're gonna hear here then is his phone call to Martin Tanner Myself and Van Hale up in Salt Lake City and you'll

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I think get the the gist of what's going on being the creator No No It's where Paul fights a pagan poet and says that we are

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God's offspring and then he obviously quotes him with approval What would you make of that? Well, I think

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I gave an indication in exactly what I just just said that God who made the world and everything in it is the

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Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands Is what he says in verse 24 and so yes

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He speaks of the fact that God is the creator of all things and that's how I understand the term father

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God is not a man as we are men Hosea 11 9 tells us and says since we are God's offspring

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We should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone in other words We are created in the image of God if we are not

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Idols of gold silver and stone then obviously God cannot be an idol of gold silver or stone either

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We are creating the image of God in that sense. You can be called an offspring But if that does not make

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God something different than what the prophets of Israel said the very God who is the eternal creator of all

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Things who is spirit and who is is Omnipresent so offspring there has a very specialized definition that you could never use in any other context

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No, not at all. Not at all because no not at all because for example in the Old Testament Israel is the offspring of God Israel Israel is called

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Or God is called the father of the people of Israel, but obviously does not mean that God gives physical birth to nations

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Well, that's quite true. It's usually a metaphorical sense, but it does as it is here of the same type as it is

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No, no, no, no, you may remember that the word genos, which is used there in the Greek is related

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In fact Latin with genus the same one that we use and it means Of the same type it means race descent kind Well, I think you've just given height

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I think you've just caused yourself a problem because for example the term monogamies Which is made up of monos and genos that is used of Jesus Christ as he is the unique the only begotten

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Son of God Now if you're going to force genos into that, what are you going to do with with that? Meaning?

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He is the With with that meaning that he is the only one now Doesn't have to do with genos.

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They're obviously related, but it's not the same thing I don't want to get into a technical discussion of Greek terminology here

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So all of the standard Greek dictionaries indicates something that is at the same genos as something else Those things have something in common.

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They are the same kind of thing. I Think you're not really dealing with that issue

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Well, I think you raised through the whole program and it simply breaks down when confronted with a verse like that Well, sir,

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God rebuked those who thought that he was like them in Psalm 50 21 You've got to read

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Acts 17 in the light of everything that has come before it which includes the clear emphasis That God is not a man that God is eternal that he is the creator of time

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And this idea that he is somehow creating Beings of the same kind off of genos

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I think is reaching far beyond that if you have one of the standard Greek dictionaries available to you For example the one you're right in front of me.

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Okay, bow aren't gingrich and donker. Does it cite Acts 17 29? Spot I can get the other one in a second, but I don't think

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I'll take the radio time to do it Well, I just tell you what it says here. Can I ask you something?

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Genus yes That's what it says. It does not say The relationship of light bulb to inventor of light bulb

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Okay So what you're meeting what you're saying that is that that same term is used of God creating a a planet for example in Psalm 90 verse 2 it says before the mountains were brought forth

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Wherever thou form the earth in the world even from everlasting to everlasting thou our God the word brought forth has

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Reference when used of humans to birth. Are you going to be consistent and apply the same technical definition there and be?

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Extremely literal and say that God is actually a female who brings who gives birth to mountains and world

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No, because I've gone to another language using the Greek term get up if you this way Uh -huh

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Are you are you prepared to say right now that get off is never used of anything other than a physical relationship of the same

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Kind father and son no, I'm not I'm precisely not it can be used metaphorically in fact

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You'd probably find it saying that it means kind or genus it says here. We are also his offspring now

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I'm not translating it as offspring. I don't care about that. We are also his genus. We are of his kind That's what it says.

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I don't say that it implies a physical relationship. I do say that implies a qualitative similarity Well, wait a minute now

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I think you've got to dig into this passage a little bit deeper and look for example at the verb that is used here and Try to deal with what it are.

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Are you familiar with the verb that's used there? So I'm looking right at it. What would you have in mind for park own?

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Mm -hmm? What does that say? What do you think it says I'm curious well, obviously

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Paul I do not believe for a second that Paul believed that we are gods or of the genus of God in that sense

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I realize you don't mean you don't think that it means that but it seems to me to mean precisely that okay

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And so would you say that we are? Would you say that the way I interpret this passage when you first gave it to me?

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Violates the meaning of genus. Yeah, we are created in the image and likeness of God that violates the meaning of genus

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Well, by the way, you interpret image and likeness, yes, I think it does Well, I think that I interpret image and likeness the same way that Paul did because he said

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God is invisible So what do you think image and likeness means? Didn't mean by invisibility the invisibility and in theory you met invisibility.

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In fact, that's a very easy thing to deal with a very invisible a very easy thing to deal with that he when

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Describing the nature of God said he is invisible. Yes, we don't see him. Do you see him right now? He dwells in light unapproachable

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Mm -hmm, and then that's just because well, we haven't seen him. But wait a minute. I thought Joseph Smith saw him didn't he?

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Yes, you did. Well, that means he's on visible doesn't know all the argument on this. I'm not going to get into this Sorry, Moses Could I could

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I invite you if you would be willing and if Martin would allow me to do so to For me to give out my address and to a correspond with me on the meaning of genus

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I would certainly be glad to correspond with you on the meaning of genus. Can I could I give that address? Martin sure, that's fine.

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Okay, you could write to us at the Alpha and Omega ministries and the post office box four seven

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Zero four one. Let me repeat that. That's post office box four seven zero four one

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Phoenix Arizona. Oh And the zip code there is eight five zero six eight

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That's eight five zero six eight I would very much like to correspond with you on the meaning of genus in act 17 and Dig into you you mentioned you'd be willing to talk about the definitions the words dig into Bauer and gingrich and donker kittles theological dictionary

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Etc. Etc. So I'm gonna do that Like by the way to take the occasion to deny something else that you've been assuming all along which is that That God is the creator of all things that kneel or that doctrine is not attested for the second century and anything like clarity

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Well, I think that's very untrue. I think you'll find it. First of all in the Jewish sources very strongly.

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Well, no Well, I wouldn't I wasn't even including Philo in in in that but it is it is clearly said in Since the context that I said it was in regards to the early church fathers

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Obviously before the second century you're what you're saying is you do not find it in Clement Ignatius or Irenaeus or maybe possibly

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I'm sorry Well, I was talking about Clement of Rome Not Clement of Alexandria.

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You don't you don't find it in Irenaeus. No, you don't you don't find Malito of Sardis Okay, and you'd and if you saw these things

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I'm getting knocked across the room here moment and if you and if you saw these things if they were sent to Well, if I saw them,

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I'd want to know how you interpreted them. I doubt that they're there I'm thinking particularly of a correspondence or excuse me an exchange of articles between a couple of people at journals of Jewish studies a few years ago

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We're far greater authorities on creation Exactly. Hello that I am but who placed the the invention of the doctrine sometime around 81 65 your favorite patient Well, actually

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I'd place it in Colossians All right. I'm sorry Isaiah chapter 40 is being a very clear evidence of it. I'd absolutely deny that Well, you can deny it

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I just I just like to invite the listeners to read Isaiah chapter 40 Through a 48 and see if they don't find out there for themselves

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Fair they should know though that the that if the consensus informed opinion right now among scholars

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It's simply the doctrine does not exist in the Bible I I totally deny that and ask them to to look into it for themselves

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Okay, I would suggest anything by David Winston who is the professor at the Graduate Theological Union Berkeley We probably represent the greatest authority on the subject right now, and I'd like to just the dr

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Kaiser from training evangelical divinity school on the subject the Old Testament the Doctrine of God there

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Oh, well, I hate to say it. I hate to play academic status games, but he just doesn't write against Winston well, if you want to feel that way, that's fine, but Anyway, I think

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I think it should be said for those who are listening that in terms of reputable scholarly accepted academic opinion outside of theological seminaries where theological actions to grind

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The idea is this doctrine did not exist Among the early rabbis among the the brightest of the

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Hebrew Bible or even among the writers of the Greek and Testament And I'd like to add that amongst most scholarly opinion outside of theological schools

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There is no God virgin birth or salvation either if you want to go that far Well, we're not talking about that kind of an issue of faith

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Well, I think we are and I wouldn't identify that as an issue of faith That's it's not simply the issue of faith that's an issue of truth

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Let me just suggest this that what you've been saying is you've been assuming as if this is something we just all had to go

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Along with that is not true. Assuming what sir? No, no, I mentioned

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Excuse me I mentioned creatio ex nihilo in reference to the very same early fathers that we were citing in regards to deification

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Please try to be accurate. No, no. No, you also used it with weapons to the interpretation of the hermeneutic of Acts 17

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Yeah Yeah, well, I believe it's clearly in Paul Well, no one else all things are made by him and for him and he is before all things on him all things

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There are lots of things that that Reverend White has has disagreed with us and the scholars on this evening

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So I guess we'll leave it there Don't give me that They are they're said to be biased.

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Oops. Sorry about that. I Going to a second thing here. I want to hear the end of Peterson's call of fact

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James I have a statement of fact there are many things that you've disagreed with first of all and foremost is the parallels the

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Striking parallels between the Mormon concept of deification and that found in the writings of the early church fathers okay, we'll pick up at that point, but Aside from Martin Tanner's out.

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Well, yeah, you know Reverend White. He's a disagreed with us and scholars on lots of things tonight Listen to the whole thing and and you'll discover that that really doesn't have a whole lot in the way of merit and for those in the other room we'll need to take our break early because I'm gonna start a second section here in a moment, but Imagine for a moment that you have you have written an article and published an article and someone comes on the air and they criticize your article and they they refute your article and You call in and you just give the shortened form of your first name you do not announce who you are you do not address the criticisms that they've addressed of your article and That's exactly what you just heard.

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I cannot imagine What it would be like to be Dan Peterson and to call into a program like this in an anonymous fashion as he did and Not even respond to the criticism that was leveled against your own article

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Absolutely amazing and Even more amazing to me is Martin Tanner and Van Halen there knowing full well who this was and not saying a word about it very very strange

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When I when I realized that that call had come from Dan Peterson at that point

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Things go back and forth between myself and Martin Tanner for quite some time and you will hear them making reference to a single excuse me a single citation of Ernst Benz now

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I Go back and I discuss what Ernst what that particular citation was actually about.

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We'll play that section, but Well, then we'll move it back later so I'm gonna play that section and Let you hear the back -and -forth that took place between myself and and mr.

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Tanner on that particular particular subject A Statement of fact there are many things that you've disagreed with first of all and foremost is is the parallels the striking parallels?

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between the Mormon Concept of deification and that found in the writings of the early church fathers

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You want to know the foundational things? I know I don't think you would like scholars But if you would like to that's fine

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But you are disagreeing with scholars and I will make that statement again as are you Realize that you that the more of the entire

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Mormon position disagrees of ninety nine point nine percent of all Christian scholarship in the world That is an absurd statement on on the face of it this area of Deification and on any other day if it came on any other subject that there is a ninety nine point any degree of difference

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That that is absurd the parallels between all brands of Christianity are far more striking than the difference

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Let me ask you how many how many scholars? Would support the changes

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Joseph Smith made in Genesis chapter 50 and that in fact would support the joke

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You believe the translation do you believe that that's ninety nine percent that ninety nine percent of the Bible was changed by Joseph Smith But what does that have to I just asked you you said that over ninety nine percent was not

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The same was not parallel in any way No, what I said was that ninety nine percent of Christian scholars would disagree with as an example

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Joseph Smith Quote -unquote translation. I use the term very loosely because I don't think he was translating anything

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For example of inserting a prophecy about himself in the 50th chapter of Genesis Can you name me any

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L any scholars outside the LDS faith that believe that Joseph Smith quote -unquote?

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Restoration of Genesis chapter 50 has any basis in historical reality.

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What's good as a Translation as a translation, you know But I would be willing to say that ninety nine percent of them have never even looked into the matter either

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And so it's interesting when when scholars do look into it Then all of a sudden they are they're said to be biased because of supposedly being anti -mormon

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I've had many conversations with Mormons, for example, where when a scholar has made a statement on Something relevant to the

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LDS faith. Well, he's got a bone to pick well And and when we've brought up a source earlier this evening where my word as a scholar finds striking parallels

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I am if he was LDS. Yes, and he wasn't proper. No, that's fine. And and Surprised he wasn't how do you account for that change?

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What do you mean surprised? He wasn't I want to know if he was LDS because I've seen some writings that are

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Tremendously did you buy his LDS? No, I did not. I wanted to ask if he was how do you account for the parallels?

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That he found in the fact that he was not LDS I disagree totally with him with the application that has been made of the doctrine of deification

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In for example, the ensign or in Robinson's book if you want to just say well

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Yes, there are totally and completely foundational differences The early the early Christians would never ever viewed their doctrine of deification the way we do but there are still parallels

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Didn't want to say that and I said and and I said Something very close to that in the first three minutes of the show.

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Mm -hmm, and that's why there are some Substantial differences, although you continue to fail to accept the striking and numerous parallels

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Well, I don't I'm sorry if you want to call them striking and numerous parallels The simple fact the matter is the early church fathers will let our letter left aside

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Talked about joint heirs about drones about judges the divine nature about all authority all those other things about becoming the very image and about about being made in God's image and Him and we agree with all those things and yes

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And and you you don't see any of those and then I am see none of those is parallel Well since the early church fathers didn't define

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God by those things Martin are oh really But I don't think I'm God. I don't think have anything to do with that God let that's an absurd statement

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Margo's very things are used to describe that and those very things are used

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To say how we will become like him. How can you say that those things don't define

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God? How can you think that early fathers to find God by some of the following things? The creator of all things do they ever say that men will be the creator of all things no no and they ever say

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Mormons they ever say be the creator of all things and neither do the early church fathers Then you just made my point for me that they obviously

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Clearly do not have in the concept of deification the idea that men will become

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God in the way That the LDS believe that we are of the same species of God No, they ever say that they are to be worshipped.

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Nobody's afraid to nobody says that the Deification as LDS believe it is exactly 100 % the same as the early church fathers

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We've said that there are striking parallels. You have pointed out a few different. I'm sorry

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But if if those differences are absolutely foundational you as an attorney know that any good argument if you're attempting to make a parallel You have to deal with the foundation

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Let me go ahead and stop it right there and we will pick up with that rather interesting Back and forth between myself and Martin Tanner and at the end of this program.

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I also read the actual citations they say that I had ignored and Demonstrate that those citations disproved their point and proved mine and we'll continue on the dividing line right after this

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Some dead The history of the

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Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

30:21

God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of Justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

30:40

James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

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Dr. J Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

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This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

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The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen

31:09

Or more than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together

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They are standing shoulder -to -shoulder against social evils They are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and many

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Evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing

31:29

This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age -old disagreements that have divided

31:36

Protestants and Catholics Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book the

31:43

Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatorian indulgences and Marian doctrine

31:53

James White points out the crucial differences that remain in regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself.

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They cannot be ignored Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen

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Org this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church

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The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming

32:29

Lord's Day The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45

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Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7

32:43

The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix You can call for further information at 602 -26 grace

32:54

If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org

33:01

Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day

33:15

It's not an easy way It's a journey

33:25

And Welcome back to the dividing line.

33:36

My name is James white we're listening to myself and Martin Tanner sort of going at it back in the early 1990s and a subject deification in light of the upcoming debate this weekend at the

33:49

University of Utah up in the Salt Lake area and We are doing so so you can sort of hear some of the interesting things took place

33:58

We've listened to a a call from Daniel Peterson Who did not identify himself as Daniel Peterson?

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I'd be willing to go to go head -to -head with any of those people on this issue any day of the week Yeah, that's the Daniel Peterson. We're talking about We can't get him to do that though, that's what he said he'd do but but he won't and so anyways, we're listening to Martin Tanner and I going back and forth on that if you would like to a call and Participate in the sense if you've got some questions about some of the things you've heard and Sort of in this general topic area if possible then eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one is the number you might want to wait for a

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Little bit closer to the top of the hour because the next section that we're going to be playing a little bit lengthy

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Hopefully useful to you And so let's say continue on deal with the foundation since the foundations are completely different Since the early

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Church Fathers defined God in regards to his eternity and creation Are you ever telling men in that way?

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Are you telling me that the LDS concept of God is in no way similar to the early

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Christian view in your view? Yeah, there's no parallel. No, no No, you believe it is not a parallel knowing you can not

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God's all -knowing. You cannot do you believe? Yes, obviously you believe that he has all power.

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Yes Great. We've got a few parallels. Don't we know how do you account for that? The LDS God does not have all power sir, not in the

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Christian sense Well, is it was there a God do you believe do you believe what they're not before him?

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I I don't know the answer that I believe that that he was there from all beginning and so what?

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Turning out if you say that listen if you say that if you say that you have to say in what sense because in a very real sense

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LDS people believe that God always has been you fail to acknowledge.

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He always been God And he always been I don't exist him. He self -existed. He was never begotten

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No, no, he never lived as a man on another planet Yeah, he was it was he was he born of parents?

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Yes. What's he got at that time? No, then he cannot have eternally been

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God. Oh, are you self -existent in a very real sense? Okay. So what you're saying is you're self -existent and God is self -existent with the early fathers who said that you are self -existent

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Somewhat. Yes. Oh, really in a sense that God is self -existent. All right. I don't know

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I mean you're asking me to try and you tell me who said that you're trying to get me to speak for the early church

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Fathers the way you want to speak for him and I the fact is there are foundational very foundational

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Differences between what you believe and what the early church fathers believe foundation. Okay difference

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I want but you don't want to acknowledge that you just want to point out you want to point out all

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There's no different God if you turn early Christians, but you want to just sweep under the rug all the differences be part of that I'm not

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I'm not sweeping anything under the rug that is that is an unfair state That is not an unfair statement

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You have you have presumed to speak for early Chris on one point on and I've documented that and you read with the point

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No, I that's not true. Yes, it is true What was the point that I spoke for the early fathers that God was again a toss?

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Without without beginning an origin source and you agreed that that's what they had said. Oh, that isn't exactly what

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I said I disagree. I'm glad this is the ice age. I disagree with you Because then we can go back and listen go back and listen, but let me just refresh your memory.

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I made the point That the early church fathers did not all agree with you on the idea about That there is no possibility for a person being

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God Except for the father I didn't say that first of all the point that I made in Representing the early church was that they believed that the being of God is our guinea toss without origin source

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Independent and self -existent and that he is alone in that van. He is alone in that I stand by that In fact,

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I would be willing. All right, I would be willing to come back up here to Utah at your at your

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Leisure and we'll find a place to do it and we'll go for three hours in a scholar debate with with with moderator and And go for exactly what the early church fathers taught in regards to the fact is

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God Self -existent or is he not? Well, I believe that self -existent.

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That's not the point. We've agreed on that We've agreed on it a hundred times You keep going back to that as they fail for the point that I'm trying to make not avail at all

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Yes, it is. It is. I'm saying and I I think you I think you were acknowledging

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I mean, you're kind of nodding your head and so forth I was I was pointing out that many of the early church fathers

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Believed that there was a point in time when a person be became a person who is now

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God Prior to that time was not God and I'm making reference to Jesus They did not believe that Jesus Christ was

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God in the sense that God is God. That's right. That's right That's my point. Okay, we agree point.

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How about that? That's the foundational difference between your your position and their position a foundational one

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James a foundational one Can you accept that? Okay, who are they? You have a foundational difference between the early church fathers

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Not the early church fathers Martin a few unorthodox early church Oh now they're unorthodox because they don't agree where they're in the name them right now without any help

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Who were they right now Martin? I can't name them. So you don't even know who we're talking about Do you just what did what did what?

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Question you address what you address Vance question rather than trying to jump in on me and attack me and said

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I was out Of line with the early church fathers. I want to know from you I believe are you believing what somebody else is saying or do you know this of yourself?

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I'm believing what somebody is saying address your then let's say origin origin said that God was hot

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They off and Jesus would say off. He did not use the article of him. Okay, we've got origin now I don't think you're gonna want to buy into origin because there you probably know enough about origin

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That's why doesn't matter doesn't matter whether I want to buy into anybody or not I don't buy any of them as I told you in the first okay

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There's a point being that it was a not not the majority opinion of the early father

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Let's stop right at 300 Are you gonna tell me that it was the majority opinion the early fathers that there was a point in time in which a man?

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Became God. I'm not talking about a majority. I'm saying that he was I'm saying that there is not

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You said I disagreed with the father's if that's not a majority if it's one or two

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Okay, father's plural father's plural or two Fathers plural sure at all.

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I never said all don't put words in my mouth either. Okay, we're not talking about one or two We're talking about a very substantial debate

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And controversy that raged for a long time. That was a there was a we're not we're not just talking about some little

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Some little unorthodox person we're talking about something that That was basically splitting.

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Let's start with Ignatius. Well with my view. I don't want to start with Ignatius I don't know because we're we've got four minutes left and I just wanted to make a general

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Okay, go ahead and make a mistake. The general statement is that the the historians of Christian doctrine have

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In large numbers to express a consensus type of opinion that the the concept of the

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Trinity which ties in all of this was not something which was known in prior to Prior to the 4th century at the beginning of the 4th century.

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I found Ignatius and okay Yeah, you can think you find it in Ignatius, but it's not there.

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Well, I think there's no That requires an interpretation of Ignatius as does the statement that it's not there, right?

41:58

Well, of course it's okay So they're both they're both interpretation the statement. It doesn't require an interpretation to say that there is no statement of the

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Trinity In the New Testament or in Ignatius. He does not it's not as a formal He does not make a statement of the

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Trinity. He just bases his thinking on it. Well, I Well, you can say that means you can work that out.

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That would be an interesting point to discuss and debate It would be it would be something that we we wouldn't be able to Establish one way or the other because it's easy to state the

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Trinity It's very easy to state the Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity Paul could have stated that Jesus could have stated it

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Ignatius could have stated it None of them did and in fact, you know in all of them there are statements which simply don't

42:45

Don't fit well with the Trinity. Well, obviously that's that's a whole other subject I know it is I if we have a second to make a closing statement

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I would just like to make a closing statement that all the materials that I Sent up upon which we were going to discuss made one point.

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The point is that the early church as we have all agreed Well, I'm not gonna say that I always make the statement a lot of people discover it for themselves if they wish to do the

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Research on it the early church fathers who taught the doctrine of deification And they were not the entirety of the people but the early church fathers who taught the doctrine deification

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Taught that God has eternally been God never been anything other than God that he was without origin without source and hence any attempt to con any attempt to parallel a concept that we can become

43:32

God that we can inherit the same power in the same exaltation as Joseph Smith said in the King Follett funeral discourse and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith Cannot be made a valid parallel because it differs on a foundational level if a person wishes to sacrifice

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The meaning of the term parallel and just say well, I see things that are similar

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Sure, their beliefs are totally different, but there are similarities then of course those parallels can be can be drawn but I do not believe that that is an accurate or Scholarly way of dealing with the early church father.

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Let me summarize my thinking in one statement from Gregory of Nazianzus In which he says this for a cause he was born referring to Jesus and that cause was that you might be saved

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While his inferior nature the humanity became God Because it was united to God and became one person because the higher nature prevailed

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In order that I too might be made God so far as he was made man

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I mean, there's a there's an incredible statement being made there and those who are interested in reading the

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Writings of the early church fathers are going to find incredible parallels between what they're saying about men's

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Opportunity for deification and what the Latter -day Saints are saying and the same Gregory said

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God always was and is will be or better He always is and goes on from there. I Know debate about that well, there is debate about that, but Anyways, we're gonna take a

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I'm gonna stop right there and explain this next section because it'll sound differently there have only been a few times when

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I have taken something and added in a commentary at the end and As I mentioned earlier in this particular program

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Van Hale had quoted from Ernst Benz, and I didn't have this source.

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I didn't have the materials in front of me So really wasn't much I could do about it but when I got back from From Salt Lake City.

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I took the time to do some research and so in this next section We've we've certainly gotten more high -tech over the years than we were back.

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Then I sat down with one of our ghetto blasters that's what we called him back then and Recorded the following comments in regards to the citation that had been given to me and I think it's interesting because it sort of reveals the kind of activity the kind of I don't know not research, but the kind of What word am

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I searching for the the willingness to utilize information that is found within the

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Apologetic communities shall we say with this this evening Two weeks after the previous program aired in Utah We began our missions work at the

46:12

LDS Easter pageant in Mesa a Christian brother from Utah came down to share the gospel during that event in speaking with him

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He told me that he had listened to religion on the line and then informed me that the next program was Entirely devoted to the exact same topic this time without any

46:27

Christian representation I was not invited to provide further comments with reference to that program

46:33

Upon returning to Phoenix from Salt Lake I visited the local LDS bookstore and purchased the book

46:39

Reflections on Mormonism from which Van Hale had cited Ernst Benz's comments The listener will recall that it was commonly asserted that I was in conflict with Benz in regards to the position

46:49

I took with reference to the beliefs of the early fathers upon reading Benz's article I was only mildly surprised that what

46:56

Benz said was not exactly the way had been presented in the program Here is the quotation and the context given by Van Hale not that he doesn't come out in the quotations that you cite

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But what Ernst Benz has done is he has? After a lifetime of study of the history of Christian doctrine and the writing of a number of books and articles and so forth

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He also studied the LDS doctrine And he's making a direct comment

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He's doing the same thing that you've done He's looked at the LDS doctrine He's looked at the early church fathers and he comes away with a different point of view than you do

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Okay, and let me read it to you He says in no other Christian doctrine is the connection between God and man so closely conceived

47:40

The idea of man is the image of God so concretely and literally interpreted man brought into such close proximity

47:47

To God and God on the other hand so strongly directed to man as in Mormonism One can think what one wants of this doctrine of progressive deification

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Which is a term that he uses to define to describe the LDS doctrine

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Says one can think what one wants of this doctrine of progressive deification But one thing is certain where this anthropology

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Joseph Smith is closer to the view of man held by the ancient church Aphenasius the great bishop of Alexandria the head of the church in all

48:17

Egypt Summarized the Christian doctrine of salvation in the words God became man so that we may become

48:23

God The goal of salvation is deification and Athanasius invokes in this context the words of Jesus be you therefore

48:31

Perfect even as your father which is in heaven is perfect. What did Bence actually say first? We know that he opens his 17 page article with a discussion first of Augustine's doctrine of the

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Imago Dei The image of God and then contrast this with the views of the Christian mystics

48:47

It is these mystics that Bence will refer to when comparing LDS theology Next in defining

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LDS theology Bence goes against most modern LDS teachers, but follows Joseph Smith closely

48:59

He says quote beginning at page 210 of the book But what was God in the beginning the

49:05

Mormons startling answer to this question is that in the beginning God was man His relationship in the universe is the same as man's relationship to the universe

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He attempts to rationally form the given universe and make it useful to him since he is subject like man law of progression this has to mean that and then he quotes

49:23

God must have been engaged from the beginning and must now be engaged in progressive development and Infinite as God is he must have been less powerful in the past than he is today it is clear also that as with every other being the power of God has resulted from the exercise of his will as Knowledge grew into greater knowledge by persistent efforts of will his recognition of universal laws became greater until he attained at least a conquest over The universe which to our finite understanding seems absolutely complete

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We may be certain that through self -effort the inherent and innate powers of God have been developed to a godlike degree

49:57

Thus he has become God that being a quote from John Wood so's rational theology

50:03

He continues this naive formulation of that which Schelling made the basis of his natural theology the doctrine of theogony

50:13

Presupposes that the form of which God undertook the progressive organization of the earth was the human form universally accepted among the

50:20

Mormons is the idea that God has attained his present state of godhood through his own efforts to organize the

50:26

Universe in place of the God of conventional Orthodox churches who has always been complete

50:32

Mormonism knows of a God who has attained by his own activity by progressive creative organization of the eternal material power -laden universe a

50:42

Relative Dominion over the world a task which in no wise is complete and which needs further

50:48

Refining by means of more eternal progression the universe is not yet complete

50:53

God has not yet attained the highest degree of his godhood He has accomplished a great deal since he engaged as an exalted man in the organization of the universe

51:02

But he has yet much to do Progression is infinite end quote

51:07

Here we have a direct assertion by benth that according to Mormonism God is still progressing in all aspects of his being a belief decried by Mormon Apostle Bruce Arvacanky even van hale asserted that God's being has not changed relevant to our time period

51:23

Note as well that benth identifies this concept as naive and that he clearly sees that it is foreign to the orthodox concept of God Benth continues article by discussing various corollaries to the

51:36

LDS conception of deity He speaks of the LDS concept of marriage and then of birth control

51:41

It is in this context that the quotation provided by van hale is found. However, mr

51:47

Hale left out a great deal from the quotation. He read here is the quotation in full In no other

51:54

Christian doctrine is the connection between God and man so closely conceived The idea of man is the image of God so concretely and literally interpreted man brought into such close

52:03

Proximity to God and God on the other hand so strongly directed to man as in Mormonism the thought of apotheosis in mysticism which expresses itself there and the idea of the spiritual divine birth in man and the spiritual procreation of the

52:18

Sun in man and in Progressive deification of man has been translated here into a theology of evolution and progression

52:25

Where the path that man travels from his prehistoric to his earthly form of existence to his future

52:30

Corporeal mode of existence in the kingdom of heaven is understood as the path of eternal progression Determined by the great plan of God which makes possible man's ascent to Godhood It is not the path

52:42

However of the lonely celibate mystic But the way of a great and ever -growing family of Saints in whom the creative conscious organization of the universe is perfected

52:51

One can think what one wants of this doctrine of progressive deification But one thing is certain with this anthropology

52:58

Joseph Smith is closer to the view of man held by the ancient church than the precursors of the

53:04

Augustinian doctrine of original sin were who conserved the thought of such a Substantial connection between God and man has the heresy par excellence

53:11

We must remember here that for the ancient church salvation stood in direct correlation to embodiment

53:18

Athanasius the great bishop of Alexandria the head of the church in all Egypt Summarized the Christian doctrine of salvation the words

53:24

God became man so that we may become God The goal of salvation is deification and Athanasius invokes in this context the words of Jesus be therefore perfect Even as your father which is in heaven is perfect Matthew 5 48

53:39

Note that mr. Hale's quote skips the entire point that bent is comparing the LDS view with that of apotheosis in Christian mysticism

53:47

He further states that the Christian mystics view is Translated into a quote theology of evolution and progression and quote in other words

53:56

He admits the clear differences between the two concepts even in the doctrine of deification itself

54:02

Next we know the mr. Hale left off in the middle of the sentence and skipped directly to another sentence in his quotation

54:08

Leaving a false impression that was very important to the arguments presented by the defenders of Mormonism for the rest of the program

54:15

Mr. Hale's quote went like this WS doctrine says one can think what one wants of this doctrine of progressive deification

54:23

But one thing is certain Well this anthropology Joseph Smith is closer to the view of man held by the ancient church

54:30

Athanasius the great bishop of Alexandria the head of the church in all Egypt Summarized the

54:35

Christian doctrine of salvation in the words God became man so that we may become God However, the actual quotation goes as follows one can think what one wants this doctrine of progressive deification

54:47

But one thing is certain with this anthropology Joseph Smith is closer to the view of man held by the ancient church

54:53

Then the precursors of the Augustinian doctrine of original sin were who consider the thought of such a substantial connection between God and man as The heresy par excellence we must remember here that for the ancient church salvation stood in direct correlation to embodiment

55:09

Athanasius the great bishop of Alexandria the head of the church in Egypt summarized the Christian doctrine of salvation the words

55:15

God became man so that we may become God now in all fairness to mr. Hale we should point out that a year earlier on the same program on KTK K in Salt Lake City When mr.

55:27

Hale read this passage he did include that section later on in the discussion not when he first read it

55:33

But he did go back and add that in and at that time we did not discuss the subject to the depth that we did in this program

55:40

Finally we know some of the closing comments of Benson's article Now this idea of deification could give rise to a misunderstanding namely that it leads to a blasphemous

55:51

Self -aggrandizement of man if that were the case then mysticism would in fact be the most sublime most

55:58

Spiritualized form of egoism, but the concept of Imago Dei in the Christian understanding of the term

56:04

Precisely does not aspire to awaken in a man a consciousness of his own divinity

56:09

But attempts to have him recognize the image of God in his neighbor What a contrast between that and these words from Mormon Apostle George Q.

56:20

Cannon men talk about evolution This is the true evolution being such as we are in developing advancing and progressing in that upward and onward career

56:28

Until we shall become like him in truth until we shall possess the powers that he possesses and exercise the dominion that he now

56:35

Exercises this is the promise that is held out to us What is there more helpless weak puny insignificant it may be said in many respects than a human being?

56:43

When it is born into the world yet this being if nurtured properly if trains It should be has before it a career of never -ending glory

56:51

That little puling infant may become in the eternity of our god a god to sway power and dominion in the eternal worlds

56:58

To be the father of unnumbered millions yet at its birth who would anticipate such a future for it?

57:05

He also said we hear considerable about evolution Who is there that believes more in revolution in the latter -day saints the evolution of man until he shall become a god

57:13

That is the gospel of jesus christ believed in by the latter -day saints In closing we find nothing in bent's article that would dispute what we asserted from the beginning

57:23

That being that the mormon concept of god is so far removed from the view of the bible in the early church

57:29

That the attempt to make a parallel between the concept of theosis in the teachings of some of the early fathers

57:35

And the lds concept of eternal progression is improper The attempts by lds writers such as robinson peterson and ricks to deflect christian criticism of lds teachings

57:45

By attempting to draw a parallel between the patristic doctrine of theosis and the lds concept of men becoming gods is without merit

57:54

Yes, indeed. It certainly is without merit and uh that of course is an

57:59

Is as I said available on the website on our mp3 server page if you'd like to download that i'd be willing to go ahead

58:07

With any of those people Okay, we we've heard that we we want to do that. I'd be willing to stop that Sorry, hey i'm not the one that said it, you know, uh, if I said that on a on a radio program uh in front of hundreds of thousands of people i'd

58:26

Probably, you know go through with what I said that I would That I would do so. Um, I think it's perfectly fair that we repeat what was said in that situation 877 -753 -3341 877 -753 -3341

58:43

Is the phone number if you have some questions concerning that particular? encounter or the subject of deification the lds doctrine of god

58:54

Uh after this break, it will be your opportunity to call in at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one

59:03

And we will continue with the dividing line right after this Is What is dr

59:20

Norman geisler warning the christian community about in his book chosen but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

59:28

No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called calvinism

59:33

He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom james white replies to dr

59:43

Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the protestant reformation was founded

59:51

Indeed, it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate james white

59:58

Masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme calvinism Defines what the reform faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers

01:00:07

Is the very one taught in the pages of scripture the potter's freedom a defense of the reformation and a rebuttal to norman geisler's chosen

01:00:14

But free you'll find it in the reform theology section of our bookstore at aomen .org Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing pope john paul ii to recognize the virgin mary as co -redeemer with christ

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Elevating the topic of roman catholic views of mary to national headlines and widespread discussion in his book mary another redeemer

01:00:35

James white sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from roman catholic sources to explore this volatile topic

01:00:42

He traces how mary of the bible esteemed mother of the lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of god

01:00:48

Has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed queen of heaven Viewed as co -mediator with christ and now recognized as co -redeemer by many in the roman catholic church

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incorporating the most recent research and solid biblical truth Letters to a mormon elder by james white is a series of personal letters written to a fictional mormon missionary

01:01:25

Examining the teaching and theology of the church of jesus christ of latter -day saints The book brings a relational approach to material usually presented in textbook style

01:01:35

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This marvelous study is a valuable text for christians who talk with mormons and is an ideal book to be read by mormons letters to a mormon elder

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Get your copy today in the mormonism section of our bookstore at aomen .org

01:02:19

Delivered My name is james white and we've been listening to a debate that took place.

01:02:41

Well, it wasn't a debate. It was a radio program debates you generally, you know, don't just talk over each other, but a radio encounter that took place up in salt lake city

01:02:52

Somewhere around 91 I think because as I recall I mentioned something about having been

01:02:57

Going up to conference for seven years and that started in 84. So that would be somewhere around uh 91 somewhere in that particular range and uh, so, uh very interesting program again, you can

01:03:13

And get that on tape uh If you're into the low -tech way of listening to things you can get it on mp3 if you're into the high -tech way of listening to things

01:03:23

Uh really wouldn't be much good on a video because it wasn't videoed and it really wouldn't be overly exciting

01:03:28

Anyways, if it was but uh, anyways, uh, we certainly do hope to be offering all those forms of the debate coming up this weekend as well

01:03:37

And uh, no one has called in at eight seven seven seven five three three three forty one

01:03:43

Uh, so again, uh, well, you know, one of two things is going to happen Either we're gonna call it a day early today because uh, as I mentioned at the beginning of the program um

01:03:55

We we were not exactly running on a hundred percent, uh batteries today Or uh warren and I will start singing and since I don't feel that good anyways, my singing is not gonna be very good and uh, so the the combination of warren and I Me sick and then warren and i'm not gonna say anything more about that.

01:04:13

Uh would be a really bad thing. So, um Someone just asked when steve camp was coming back on the steve's that's that would be nice I talked with steve this week.

01:04:22

In fact, I suppose I shouldn't kind of sit here and chat with y 'all. Uh Preached at grace bridge at grace community church this past wednesday evening.

01:04:31

That is the adult There's a bunch of stuff going on at john macarthur's church on a wednesday night, but this is primarily the uh adult get together in the worship center and uh,

01:04:43

I uh had the opportunity of Uh preaching behind the hydraulic pulpit

01:04:48

I've always thought that was really cool boy boy as soon as I threatened to have warren start start Singing the the phones start ringing anyways, um

01:04:58

I got to preach behind the hydraulic pulpit and um, Their their pulpit comes up out of the out of the ground.

01:05:05

That's really not all that unusual i've discovered most There's a lot of lds wards and even some jehovah's witness kingdom halls that have hydraulic stuff like that but anyways,

01:05:15

I always thought that was sort of cool and Wonderful time great folks over there got to meet a number of the seminary students and what was really neat.

01:05:22

I forgot to tell uh Mr. Pierce about this I had a um, uh

01:05:28

Some new seminary student come up to me. I think he was seminary student. Yeah, I was seminary It wasn't master's college. It was seminary and he was from georgia and he had the the georgia uh, the georgia accent going on real well and I informed him that I had preached in forsyth forsyth, georgia

01:05:47

Back in in july. He knew where that was. But anyways, uh, he was extremely thankful for Our work he had read the potter's freedom and things like that and then he had gone to russia over the course of the summer and had run into lds missionaries

01:06:05

And had logged on to our website from the soviet. Well, it's not soviet union, but from russia to get information on witnessing to the mormons there in russia, and he was able to Utilize that information with those more missionaries.

01:06:18

So I thought that was really cool That the information that we've produced over the years is being used in places like that and by high quality individuals as well

01:06:28

So met a lot of neat folks who were very supportive of the ministry very supportive of what we're doing and a lot of encouragement to continue on most folks know that i'm in the midst of the

01:06:41

Uh, the debate issues, uh, the the back and forth debate issues with uh, dave hunt not debate issues.

01:06:48

I need to let me clarify this The book that we're writing, uh, mr. Hunt and I I finally got some of his opening stuff.

01:06:54

I don't have all of it yet and uh We uh, uh

01:07:01

I i've I can't give you a lot of details, but it's it's going to be interesting. Let's put it that way And I think you all are going to find it to be uh, very very very interesting when it comes out

01:07:11

But a lot of folks encouraging us knowing that that's not an easy easy subject to be addressing Uh, and of course, we have the debate coming up two debates coming up in the first weekend november

01:07:21

With john sanders on inclusivism and open theism as well and uh, so someone has suggested, uh

01:07:30

Uh Finished explaining the answer last week's last caller on hank's use of romans 5 and the atonement, etc.

01:07:35

I don't i've not heard Uh, hank hanegraaff address romans 5. I don't know what he's saying. I I know that uh, uh,

01:07:42

He doesn't believe in particular redemption or things like that. But um, I've not heard what he says about romans 5.

01:07:48

There's really no way I could do that But we do have uh, one person who evidently either just really dislikes um

01:07:55

The possibility of solos by by warren and I or has a real question that's jame down james down in denton, texas.

01:08:04

Hi james How you doing james good, how are you doing? All right

01:08:09

Uh, I had a question. Uh, you mentioned, uh, the book of genesis chapter 50. Yes You said that joseph smith made an addition to that yeah, i'm looking around here, unfortunately,

01:08:20

I put my quad back and so I I uh, I don't have uh in front of me and Uh, yeah, here comes rich to get for me, but he and inserted a number of verses uh in which he uh includes a prophecy of himself

01:08:36

And uh places this in in the words of uh, as I recall joseph Uh, let me see here.

01:08:44

I now have it. Let me see if I can find the material for you here Specifically it would be wherever they put the joseph smith

01:08:54

Uh joseph smith translation here it is. It's specifically genesis, uh chapter 50 if you uh have do you have your uh, your bible open to that perhaps

01:09:06

Uh, I can't get it. Oh, that's all right. I just um, Uh, you'll notice that uh genesis chapter 50 in the real bible anyways um ends with verse 26 so joseph died at the age of 110 years and he was embalmed in place in a coffee in egypt a coffee

01:09:24

Yeah a coffin in egypt. Uh, but according to the lds, uh, his joseph smith's version their uh

01:09:32

Genesis 50 goes all the way through verse 38 Uh, so there is an added uh 12 verses

01:09:41

Uh that have been inserted in here. Of course, there is no foundation nothing has ever been found anywhere in the entirety of the

01:09:49

Uh of the world to substantiate this but it is for example Uh verse 26 a seer shall the lord my god raise up who shall be a choice seer under the fruit of my loins

01:10:00

Thus saith the lord god of my fathers unto me a choice seer Will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins

01:10:08

We were just having a discussion of redundancy in the chapel in the chapel in the channel and here's a good example of redundancy uh, he should do a work for the fruit of thy loins his brethren and uh, he talks about uh, you know the name joseph and and the whole nine yards and uh

01:10:23

You know, that's that's what is inserted. Uh Into genesis chapter 50

01:10:30

What was his basis for adding this? That he's a prophet Oh, okay. See prophets can do that kind of thing.

01:10:36

It's uh, you know, there doesn't have to be any historical basis Doesn't have to be a manuscript basis

01:10:41

Uh, he's a prophet and if god speaks to him and says stick this into genesis chapter 50

01:10:48

Just because it happens to be a prophecy that's fulfilled in him doesn't mean anything at all you just do it

01:10:53

So he would uh mormons who claim that this was the holy spirit ministered to joseph smith and he felt compelled to do this.

01:10:59

Yes Okay. Yep. That's exactly uh right now the vast majority of mormons. I know of don't even know about that I mean it's in there.

01:11:07

It's in their scriptures Uh in the sense that now it's not in their scriptures if you go to genesis 50 in their current, uh

01:11:16

Issue of the scriptures you'll see a footnote that will refer you to the joseph smith translation appendix in the back of their king

01:11:23

James bible And that's where you'll be able to find it But I I would I would say the majority of mormons with whom i've spoken of With who i've spoken probably we're not even aware of that and I don't find a lot of mormons

01:11:36

Uh that pay a whole lot of attention to the joseph smith translation, which which I find interesting uh,

01:11:43

I certainly find it very interesting because of The fact that I think it gives us a way of testing joseph smith as an alleged prophet

01:11:50

And the changes he made are are are consistently against uh, you know the alterations he makes in john 6 and And turning the entire meaning of romans 4 on its head and things like that The greek manuscripts don't do not support that kind of thing.

01:12:06

And so the joseph smith translation I think is a good test of joseph as a prophet, but most mormons today just don't spend

01:12:13

They just don't invest much time in it and I I haven't found it to be a real big issue amongst um

01:12:19

Lds apologists either Okay, so anyways, so that's the addition he made. Okay.

01:12:25

Well, great. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. God bless Uh, yeah mormons are are pretty much king.

01:12:31

James only that's one of the questions that was asked in channel, but not the way that uh

01:12:37

King james only folks are king james only um they uh, they really uh, it's more out of It's the official translation.

01:12:48

It's the one they're familiar with and it used to be anyways that mormons would um,

01:12:56

Utilize the you know if you use different translation that demonstrates the bible's been changed etc, etc, etc, but That's changing.

01:13:04

Um That's starting to break down and mormon writers are willing to use other translations of the bible more

01:13:12

Uh often and not in official stuff, but you know things like that I know van hale loves to use different translations of the bible all the time.

01:13:20

And so That's starting to break down and um, I don't I don't know what the official

01:13:26

Position the church eventually is going to be of course, but I think over time that's probably going to break down I it's hard to say so Um, anyhow, eight seven seven seven five three 33 41

01:13:39

I should probably just leave this quad right around here someplace a quad of course for those of you who are not into constantly witnessing to mormon folks is the

01:13:48

Book of mormon doctrine covenants pro great price and the king james version of the bible bound together including topical guide

01:13:54

Bible dictionary and joseph smith translation as well. So the thing is thick uh, it is a um

01:14:01

It's a weapon especially in the full -size versions Uh, when you use the handle on the cover to swing it, it would be a pretty pretty nasty, uh, nasty weapon

01:14:11

I hear that they are willing to use the warren translation Well, uh, that's only the small polygamist mormon group in uh, south, uh eastern, uh, utah there's about 12 of them that are willing to use the warren translation now and Uh, that was only because warren paid them in crisp meat burritos, uh to to do so Some of you have no idea what in the world

01:14:39

I was just talking about but that's okay. It's all right um i'm just reading what's on the screen in front of me and Someone had told me that the mormons were now willing to use the warren translation and I was just commenting commenting on that I see the js4jc has a triple.

01:14:53

That's very nice Uh, I have a triple in fact, I have about six triples of various and sundry sizes all of them leather bound, of course and uh

01:15:02

Let's see reading some other things here. Someone was hiding their new world translation That's a whole nother subject that we really don't want to get into here.

01:15:08

Uh, hold on. Just saying i'll look over here I don't see any lights flashing.

01:15:14

So I don't know That Uh, are you warming warren up out there is that is that the idea?

01:15:25

Uh, let's see. Are you ready? Let's see. What what what are your suggestions for what we should sing? Uh, you know, uh, wasn't wasn't the 50th and what was the anniversary recent was it 25 years of the the king's death?

01:15:38

Was it that's that what it was? Or 20 years. I can't remember Uh, you ain't nothing but a hound dog

01:15:44

You know what to be honest with you i'm gonna have to admit i'd have to have the words because after like the first line i'm lost because Uh, I didn't grow up listening to elvis now

01:15:53

Now now I will tell you here's here's what I can do. Here's what I can do. Let's see here

01:16:00

Take a break. Thanks Isn't that pretty? Uh, dr. Oakley.

01:16:05

What exactly did the early fathers mean when they refer to us becoming god? Well, that was part of the discussion.

01:16:10

I'm actually bringing something up here while i'm doing this. Uh, that was part of the discussion prior to uh

01:16:17

Prior to the section we played I tried to explain some of their ideas that they were basically

01:16:22

Differentiating man from any of the rest of creation the fact that would be fully redeemed united with christ Sharing the divine nature, but the point was and I repeated this had to repeat it many many times

01:16:34

Uh was that god in their theology had always been god and hence to say that there's a parallel Between the lds concept and what those early fathers that mentioned thales is primarily in the east uh meant would simply uh be ridiculous and uh,

01:16:52

I had to repeat that over and over and over and over again and Mr.

01:16:57

Tanner just never did uh quite You know really accept what I had to say, of course as you uh, as you certainly heard in uh in that discussion but anyways if you want um

01:17:10

If you want to know see ah here I didn't grow up listening to uh listening to uh, elvis that that that really wasn't allowed in our uh

01:17:22

Yeah, I know you didn't hear the beginning but but uh, that's because we didn't play the beginning And I mentioned that you might want to uh download the uh, the whole thing

01:17:30

It's number 442 if you'd like to have a full discussion of that particular thing. Uh The debate on open theism randy wants to save everyone from my singing

01:17:42

I don't understand that. Oh, there's a light over there. Well, just hold on a second debate on open theism. Oh, okay

01:17:47

You mean randy in colorado? That that that randy in colorado Yes, okay.

01:17:54

All right. Well, hold on just a second. I didn't grow up listening to uh to elvis but I did grow up.

01:18:01

I would actually Uh go to sleep and my parents would be playing on an eight track. Yes An eight track you remember those?

01:18:09

Remember those right in the middle of a song. They're just it was just such high tech stuff eight tracks.

01:18:15

Anyways, um Uh, I would go to bed listening to what I still think

01:18:21

Is one of the greatest voices of all time Really really is so just just indulge me for just a moment

01:18:30

Here's a really good example of what I think Is one of the greatest voices of all time?

01:18:42

Uh, yes, some of you don't know who that is sadly,

01:19:26

I bet you there's a lot of folks especially in the chat channel these days It was so young that they don't even know what

01:19:34

The voice is i'm so ah you this this fellow who is

01:19:40

So mysterious, we don't know who he is In fact, his host mask does not resolve to a usable host mask

01:19:48

Uh got it, right Nat king cole what a tremendous voice nat king cole had just uh

01:19:57

Just incredible and that's a beautiful song too when I fall in love But anyways, that is not what we're here for In fact, i'm being told that randy in colorado says we should stick to apologetics and skip the singing.

01:20:07

Well, that's fine That's fine. Some of us are multi -talented. Okay? and uh

01:20:13

And that's just all there is to it. So let's go ahead and talk to him You know, I mean, I don't know why we should after a comment like that personally.

01:20:19

Yeah Well, I think you're putting words in my mouth. Uh, well i'm just reading what's on the screen If it appears on the screen, it must be true.

01:20:25

That's warren distorting things again Uh, well, you know, he does have that tendency. Well, I see he's bitter because this is the second time i've called in despair

01:20:32

The world is singing And I think he's eager to make his debut

01:20:37

When warren doesn't know probably I I never told him this but I actually do uh music reviews on the web

01:20:44

Cool, so if he ever gets that cd done, you know, i'll see what I can do He just told me that randy and I need to talk

01:20:55

Hey Actually, I just caught the tail end I was about to leave for a party my hockey team won a championship last week and What's hockey?

01:21:03

Is that a sport? It's a great sport. Hey, you got phoenix over there. Uh, you know, you've got a team

01:21:08

Oh, okay. It's my old hometown team the winnipeg jet. That's right The the winnipeg into the first round out the first round jets.

01:21:16

Yeah Unfortunately, but they you know what they probably had well, I hope this isn't related

01:21:21

But they probably had more christians than any other team. Really? Well, great. Wonderful. I know of two so cool.

01:21:28

Yeah, but anyway, uh, Getting back to the true topic at hand. Uh, what is the date of your john sanders debate?

01:21:35

Uh, that would uh, that would be november 1st and 2nd

01:21:41

Okay for ets Yes, because he will be speaking at ets and so he may be uh

01:21:49

Who knows it may he may be quite stunned by the result of the debate and and just have a whole new anti -opentheism speech at I sort of doubt that personally remember he's the uh,

01:22:02

His uh, his response to where was be wary of where and he was one who used the evangelical taliban.

01:22:09

Uh, comment, uh last year, so he's uh, it's not going to be actually the uh, the uh, the uh,

01:22:16

The stronger one last year was uh, I don't know my mind slipped the old guy, you know

01:22:21

Not sanders, but his older mentor clark pinnock clark. Yeah clark pinnock. He was ranting about the evangelical mullahs mounting jihads against him but um,

01:22:32

I was wondering if you had that opportunity to read, uh, Terrence teason's book yet.

01:22:37

Um in preparation for this the providence and prayer. No, I actually got it, uh at your recommendation and uh up until uh

01:22:47

Last few weeks i've either been working on uh hunt and then this debate on mormonism and so once this weekend is over then the next uh, four weeks are going to be nothing but uh,

01:22:59

Preparation for that and really doing nothing else. Uh than that Which means i'm even gonna have to put the the hunt replies on on hold which is really difficult for me to do

01:23:09

Now that I start getting them. I want to I want to you know respond to them Just have to be patient and uh, what's the status of the debate book?

01:23:17

Well, i've i've gotten five out of the seven opening statements I had turned all my seven in and over a month ago, and I wanted to have

01:23:25

Mr. Hunt's material prior to going on our cruise, but I wasn't able to get it I got it, uh about an hour before I had to leave to to speak at grace community church in los angeles, uh from wednesday

01:23:37

So I threw them all onto my uh, uh handspring visor and read them on the flight and uh, as I said,

01:23:44

I you know, there's someone on the air by the name of rush limbaugh who goes, uh I've got a big

01:23:49

I told you so today And uh, then he you know ruffles some uh, you know some papers in the background and that kind of stuff and uh,

01:23:58

Let's just say that it's a big I told you so It's very very much what you would expect very very predictable and and I think that Uh, the contrast of the two is going to be extremely striking um

01:24:13

Let's just put it that way. Oh, it sounds good. Well, of course the open theism one's interesting to me because it's been such a

01:24:19

Large topic and not only at uh, you know ets but also on several friends action

01:24:28

And uh, although I had somebody claim that that was something for stuffy old theologians and wouldn't impact the real world

01:24:34

It was a waste of time within a year. I had Two families I knew of in churches that had gone that route.

01:24:40

So yeah, no, it's uh, uh, it's unfortunately because it does appeal to um the the senses of man and the idea of it certainly allows

01:24:52

You to find a way around god's sovereignty and uh around god's decree

01:24:57

Um, no, it's it's not going to just stay in there besides that you've got people like boyd anyways

01:25:03

Uh, I would agree that sanders and pinnock's books are not really Good at communicating shall we say?

01:25:10

Uh, but boyd is writing on a level that especially because he's written books on other subjects That people pick up and and read he's writing on a level that communicates to the average person the pew and therefore it's going to uh

01:25:24

Going to go that direction Unfortunately, I think it's something I just tuned in when you mentioned you're you're quiet, of course um, have you uh

01:25:39

Uh run into you know, what's going to see the mormon? Going to the general conference and whatnot

01:25:45

It seems to me that there's been a growing trend for mormons to continually attempt to shall we say, uh, wear evangelical clothing

01:25:52

Oh, yeah Have you are you seeing that when you go to conference that there's more of uh of that that aspect?

01:25:59

Oh, yeah I mean mormonism is definitely trying to mainstream and there's there's no question about the the continuation of that effort and Where it's going to lead.

01:26:08

I don't know because it is impacting their uh, their scholars. Uh, it's impacting.

01:26:14

Uh, really all of mormonism and resulting in a Diminishment of emphasis upon certain doctrines and and so on so forth.

01:26:22

I really Uh, I don't know where that is going to uh where that's going to end up going I don't think anyone can predict what mormonism is going to look like 10 or 20 years from now

01:26:31

But there's definitely you know, they they for example think the open theism stuff's great Uh, that's uh, that's right down their uh, their alley

01:26:38

Even though I was talking to a mormon fellow that affirmed exhausted divine foreknowledge recently, which was very interesting.

01:26:44

So Anyways, um, hey, you know, uh martin's calling from england and it's costing a bunch of money

01:26:50

So let me talk to him really quickly. Thank you for saving us from uh, you know I I don't I don't want you randy to feel like it's your responsibility

01:26:58

Okay, but I think that I think warren may want to talk with you when i'm done here So well rather than responsibility

01:27:04

I look at it as a joy Sort of like giving your blood to save the world against some sort of terrible

01:27:12

Willing to die to save others or something. I'm, not sure Thanks. All right.

01:27:18

God bless. Hey, let's see if we can get if we If warren can lift his wounded arms far enough to get martin on here real quick, uh martin, are you there?

01:27:26

I am james. Hi. How you doing martin? I'm doing very well. Thank you. James. How are you? Oh, i'm doing just great You know, we were talking this morning about you know, uh

01:27:36

How it's getting cattle there in england. You don't want to ride your bike anymore, you know I'm, sorry. Is that a bicycle?

01:27:43

James you sound more australian than english. Oh, no Oh I'm sorry, i'm doing my best, you know, no worries, mate

01:27:55

Oh goodness, uh, you do sound that little goodness part, you know that sound just like uh, colin, you know colin

01:28:01

Oh goodness out. You know, you know, it's just it's so cute. Anyways, uh, so martin

01:28:07

What's what brings you on to the dividing line today? Um I can't get over your australian accent.

01:28:13

Um a quick question really Um witnessing to a few mormons a little while ago and they had a video

01:28:19

Um regarding what they claimed to be. Um lds Archaeology and it was to do with the mayans and uh, mesoamerican archaeology.

01:28:28

Yep Have you seen that and are there any responses to it? Yep. Yep. Um Yes, in fact,

01:28:34

I think that particular video unless they've changed it has been uh, uh discussed by the tanners in their book, uh archaeology in the book of mormon

01:28:43

Uh, it's pretty common stuff. It's it's not even the farm stuff. It's not even what you might call the quote -unquote better stuff

01:28:50

It's it's the really bad stuff. I'm a little surprised they do that. They don't generally do that in the united states

01:28:57

They are really been pushing the um, the jesus video that they did instead

01:29:02

So right i'm a little surprised that they brought was that one of the first ones they showed you? Um, they're talking to a friend but yes,

01:29:08

I mean that was more the first one they showed him interesting All right well I hate to tell you what but I can hear the music right behind me right now brother and so Uh, i'm gonna have to go and let steve camp sing here and say goodbye to all of you

01:29:19

Thank you for calling and see you In two weeks. Bye We must contend

01:29:42

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01:30:09

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01:30:15

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