For Whom Did Christ Die? An Interview With Dr. Mike Riccardi About His Book "To Save Sinners"

Justin Peters

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Welcome to the program, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Justin Peters. I hope that this finds you and your family doing well today.

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I want to thank you so much for joining me for this podcast. For whom did

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Christ die? For whom did he atone? Did Jesus atone for all of the sins of every person who has ever lived, is alive now, and will be alive in the future?

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Did he make salvation possible for everyone, or did Jesus atone only for the sins of the elect,

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God's people? This gets to the question of whether or not Jesus' atonement was a general redemption or a particular redemption, more commonly known as limited atonement.

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Today, it is my great privilege to interview Dr. Mike Riccardi. Mike serves as an elder at Grace Community Church.

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He has a Master of Divinity, a Master of Theology, and a PhD from the

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Master Seminary, where he also serves as the Assistant Professor of Theology. He serves alongside

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Phil Johnson. He and Phil are the co -pastors of Grace Life Fellowship at Grace Community Church.

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Mike has written a new book. The title of it is, To Save Sinners, A Critical Evaluation of the

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Multiple Intentions View of the Atonement. Mike, in this book, has written a theological tour de force defending limited atonement, particular redemption.

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And I really would love for you to watch all of this interview. It's about an hour and 10 minutes or so in length, but it will be worth every minute of it.

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God has truly gifted him with just a very capable theological mind, and he's one of my favorite preachers to listen to.

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He's in my top five of favorite preachers, and my top five, I don't even know who I would put as number one.

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It's kind of just all run together, but he's definitely one of my favorite preachers, and he's a great guy. He really is.

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I've had the privilege of getting to know Mike over the last several years or so, eight, nine or so years, and just a really good guy, wonderful husband, father, family man, church man, loves the church, loves the

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Lord, man of great integrity. So I would highly commend him to you.

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I've got links, again, to all of his books, to some sermons that he has preached on this topic, on limited atonement, particular redemption, as well as a link to this book that he's written entitled,

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Sanctification, the Christian's Pursuit of God -Given Holiness. Sanctification is something that is lacking, sadly, in some of our more

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Reformed theological circles, Reformed soteriological circles. So I've read that book.

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It's very good. I commit it to you. So all of the links, all the pertinent links down below in the description.

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Okay, dear ones, without any further delay, here's my interview with Dr. Mike Riccardi. Well, Mike, brother, thank you so very much for joining me for my podcast today.

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Looking forward to talking with you about your new book, To Save Sinners, A Critical Evaluation of the

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Multiple Intentions View of the Atonement. How are you this morning? I'm well,

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Justin. Thanks, man. Thanks for having me on. It's a delight to see you, always a delight to talk with you. So I'm looking forward to our conversation.

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I am as well. I am as well. And I'm so excited about your new book, Mike. So, Mike, generally speaking, tell us, what is this book about?

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I know it's dealing with the scope of the atonement, limited atonement. People have heard that term probably, maybe another term that they're not as familiar with, particular redemption.

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And your subtitle, Multiple Intentions View of the Atonement. What are we dealing with here?

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Yeah, so the book is really a slight adaptation of my

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PhD dissertation. And when you do those, you know, you can't just say, all right, I'm going to say the same thing that everybody's ever said about defending the, you know, particular scope of the atonement.

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That's kind of what I wanted to do. I just wanted to affirm what I think the soundest guys of your church history have affirmed about the extent of the atonement.

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But when you do a project like that, you know, you've got to make a contribution to any kind of some sort of academic discussion.

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And so what I thought was, rather than try to say something new or invent something new,

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I'd try to refute something new and vindicate something old. And the Multiple Intentions View of the extent of the atonement is basically,

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I mean, the way that I would characterize it is a mediating position between you know, classic limited atonement,

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Christ died for the elect alone, and between that and universal atonement, Christ died for all without exception.

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And they basically say well, Christ has died for all without exception in some sense, but then the elect alone in another sense.

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And so they try to have both, and they try to have their cake and eat it too, so to speak. And there are a lot of guys that I was around that were around me who found that very attractive, plausible.

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And so what I was trying to do is I was trying to take what I thought was among the better wrong views on the extent of the atonement and try to show how that proposal doesn't work.

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And figuring that if I could refute what I think is the best wrong view that everything, you know, downstream of that is taken care of as well.

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Okay, okay. So Multiple Intentions View, this is kind of like as you hinted at a second ago, it's kind of like a something of a almost a

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Molinistic kind of, you know, Molinism kind of trying to find a middle road between man's free will and election predestination.

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So it's kind of almost like a middle road between particular redemption limited atonement and universal atonement.

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Is that right? Yeah, I would say so. I think that you have a lot of that is happening in the time where this doctrine, you know, kind of has its genesis in the early 2000s, you know, you have a lot of folks trying to present extremes, you know, and then say

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I'm the wise one who kind of walks through the middle. I mean if there's been debate for centuries on this issue, how is it that we could say that so many good guys were wrong about it and so many good guys were right about it?

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Obviously the existence of the debate means that some people are talking past each other and therefore let's try to pull the strengths of both and eschew the weaknesses of both and that was what this view attempted to do.

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Okay. All right. So what multiple intentions, exactly what are you referring to?

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Are you talking about multiple intentions within the triune Godhead as it comes to God's plan of salvation?

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Is that what we're talking about? What kind of debate did you, go ahead. Yeah, so, you know,

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Lewis Berkoff has sort of framed the discussion in a classic way where he talks about how in the intention of God and the atonement really is the heart of this debate over extent.

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It's what did, because unless you are like somebody who believes in universal final salvation, right?

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Right. You believe that the atonement actually is limited to those whose sins are atoned for.

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In that sense, the atonement is limited to the saved because they're the only ones who are atoned. And so,

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Berkoff says, you know, that really what we're getting at is what did God intend to do in sending

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Christ to die and what did Christ intend to do in going to his death? And so the intention really is at the very, very heart of it and historically the two main views have said, well, single intention, right?

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The universal atonement guys have said his intention was to provide salvation for all without exception if they should repent and believe.

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And then particularists, you know, the classic particularist side of things has said, you know, the intention of God is to save, to actually and certainly save all those for whom

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Christ dies and who were they? They're the ones the Father has chosen.

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And what the multiple intentions view is trying to say is the problem isn't with either of those intentions.

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The problem is insisting on one to the exclusion of the other. And so they say, why can't it be that the intention of God in sending

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Christ and in Christ and dying is both to provide salvation for all and to secure the salvation of the elect.

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That sounds very attractive on the front of it because then they can appeal to, hey, look, the reason that we have all texts is because of this universal intention.

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And the reason that we have like sheep and church and friends and his people texts are because of that's the particular intention.

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So it's not this or that, it's both. And again, it sounds really good and plausible until you kind of check under the hood and say, okay, does this really work out consistently and genuinely exegetically?

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And when you do that, I think when you consider what scripture says explicitly is the divine intention in the atonement as well as what the atonement actually is, like what it did accomplish, its nature, then you find that the multiple intentions views arguments for general intentions in the atonement just don't hold water.

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Yeah, right. You run into some Trinitarian problems, do you not,

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Mike? And we're not saying that those who would hold this multiple intentions view are denying the trinity to be clear.

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We're not saying that, but we do run into some with that view some pretty significant theological headwinds and difficulties with the triune nature of God.

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Is that right? I would say so. I mean, the multiple intentions guys are sensitive to that charge and to the aim to give an answer for it.

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I don't think that answer satisfies. I could get into why if you want. But the fact that they recognize that that's a problem, like that's something that has to be answered,

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I think is indicative of what you're saying. Reality is, I mean, in classic Arminianism, what you have is the father choosing those he foresees will believe in him.

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So that's one set of people. You have the son dying for all without exception. That's another set of people.

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And then you have the spirit working in persuasively to try to woo people to believe only those to whom the gospel comes.

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Because, of course, the spirit's not working in all without exception because the gospel doesn't come to all without exception.

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There are plenty of people in history who never heard one word of this Christ who was to have made it possible for them to be saved if they received his message.

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They didn't ever hear that message and that by the providential design of God who orders all things in history.

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So on that scheme, you have the father choosing some, the son atoning for all, and the spirit working in still others.

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And that, I think, winds up pitting the members of the Trinity at odds with one another in terms of what they're trying to achieve in salvation.

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Whereas I think only a strict particularism, only a classic particularism has it so that the father is trying to save the ones he's chosen, the son is trying to redeem and pay for the sins of the ones the father's chosen, and the spirit regenerates the ones the father's chosen, namely the ones whom

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Christ has died for. You need a perfect consistency there and you don't get it in any non -particularist view.

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Yeah. Okay. Out of curiosity, how did this get on your radar, Mike? What motivated you to write this book and delve into these theological weeds?

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Yeah, I think it's born out of my love, concern, and fellowship with my brothers here at the

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Master's Seminary. I came here to train for ministry in 2009 and have been here since then and was surprised to learn that several around here, some including professors, many of the students weren't convinced in a full five -point

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Calvinism. That surprised me because I figured, Pastor John MacArthur, who was the president and now is the chancellor of seminary, teaches this and we're all in agreement on this, but it wasn't so.

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In discussions with my seminary brothers on this, there was always this,

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No, I'm not an Arminian. They would say I'm not even a four -point Calvinist, sort of like Demarest or Millard Erickson or Schaefer or something like that, but I'm a four -and -a -half -point

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Calvinist, they would say. I was like, okay, where do you get that extra? What's the half? They argued basically for this sort of multiple intentions view and at least when

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I was first hearing about it, there were several of really good friends of mine who would say, Oh, you've got to read this guy,

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Gary Schultz. He's the guy to read. You've got to see this handout that Bruce Ware wrote and then you've got to see this dissertation that Dr.

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Ware's PhD student undertook to vindicate it.

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I was like, okay, let me read it. I think that the question for whom did

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Christ die is super important. I think it's only the slightest removed from the very center of the gospel because what

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Christ did in dying is the cross. It is Christianity.

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You're not straying very far from the heart of Christianity when you say, okay, for whom did he do this? I thought, well, I ought to dig into this.

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I read it and I thought, this is not as compelling to me as I would expect given the way that people were talking about it.

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I think it can be refuted. I started talking to people about just the argumentation.

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Well, yeah, when he brings this up, the answer to that is this. Of course, those conversations are more simplistic.

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Then you hear your brother's objections and they make you realize, oh, it's more complex than just, well, this is the answer to that.

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I've got to prove that. Now, I've got to try to persuade people. I also read the crossway volume from heaven.

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He came and sought her and was just really getting interested in the argumentation, the history, these sorts of things.

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They addressed some things on the multiple intentions view in there. But I thought, if this is what some of my dear brothers are pointing to as the best defense of the view they find compelling and hindering them from embracing a classic particular redemption, then

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I ought to show that there are good, exegetical, biblical, and theological reasons to reject that because it really wasn't a case that I think represents scripture accurately or coheres doctrinally in the ways that it needs to.

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So I set myself on that course for my PhD work. Wow, okay.

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All right. Well, Mike, let's go through some of these texts. Now, as is the case with many theological debates, you've got your certain proof texts that you go and you appeal to for one side or the other.

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Let's walk through a few of the pros, I guess, and you and I would share common theology belief in this.

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But then we're going to look at some of the problem texts, I suppose, for particular redemption.

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Matthew 20, 28, just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life a ransom for many.

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And then related to that, Revelation 5, worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals because you are slain and purchased.

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This is the four living creatures, 24 elders saying this. You, referring to Christ, of course, you were slain and purchased for God with your blood people from every tongue, tribe, tongue, people, and nation.

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So these texts, Jesus says that he gave his life as a ransom, not for all, but for many.

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And he purchased for God with his own blood people from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation.

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So talk to us a little bit about the importance of these texts. Yeah, so actually, you know, maybe just a little bit ahead of that.

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The central thesis of my work is that the debate on the extent of the atonement usually fosters more heat than light because we too quickly run to the extent texts and don't set them in the context of the design and the nature of the atonement.

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And so my argument is when you understand what ransom means and when you understand what purchased for God with your blood means in addition to other things, the understanding of those truths colors or sort of shapes your understanding of what the extent of those actions can be.

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In other words, we too quickly run to the scope words in those texts and then say, well, many means all or all means many.

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This commentator says this, this commentator says that. And it's a game of proof text volleyball. It doesn't help anything. And you just wind up going, entrenching yourself further in the position you already came with because it's just confirmation bias.

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The only thing that breaks that stalemate, I mean, literally, I mean, think about Matthew 20, 28, and then 1

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Timothy 2, 6. Those are virtually identical statements. He gave himself a ransom for all.

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He gave his life a ransom for many. Himself, his life, virtually similar, virtually the same.

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Many, all opposite scopes, right? And the only thing that's going to be a biblical reason why we would say, well, we need to interpret

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Matthew 20, 28 in light of 1 Timothy 2 or interpret 1 Timothy 2 in light of Matthew 20, 28 is, well, what in the context, what in the lexicography, what in the syntax is going to help me see what this atonement is?

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And then we'll ask, who's it for? So interpret, so the question really is, do we interpret the substance of the atonement in light of the scope?

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Do we say, well, this text says it's been done for all, therefore, since all don't receive it, it must not have been done for all, only provided for all, only made potential for all, and then they have to respond.

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Or do we interpret the scope of the atonement in light of its substance and say, what is this thing?

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And given what it is, there, and then we ask the question, for whom is it? And then we say, well, did this thing happen to everybody?

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If the answer to that question is no, then evidently the scope is not absolutely universal.

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And then the question becomes, are there legitimate exegetical reasons for interpreting universalistic language like all in world in ways that are not absolutely universalistic, like not all without exception?

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Or on the other side, the question becomes, are there good reasons exegetically to interpret substance language like purchased and ransom in ways that mean potentially purchased, or potentially ransomed, or provisionally purchased, or provisionally ransomed?

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And my argument is, no, ultimately, when you actually work it all out, Scripture shuts us up to saying that the atonement accomplished actualities and certainties, and it definitively accomplished what it is that God intended and what

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Christ intended, and therefore, since it's evident that not all without exception are ransomed,

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Matthew 20, 28, right? Right. Or 1st Timothy 2, 6. Since to be ransomed means what?

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To be rescued, to have a payment made so that you can be free from your captivity. Purchased is redemption language.

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It's redemption from slavery to sin. It's very similar language. You know, what would it mean for me, if you were in jail,

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Justin, for preaching the gospel, and your bail was set at $5 ,000, and Kathy said, Mike, I need you to go bail

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Justin out of jail. I said, I'm on it, right? And I go, and I go there, and I pay the $5 ,000 for your bail, and I leave you there.

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And I go home, and I, and Kathy says, is he back? Or did it all work out?

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Yeah, all worked out great. You know, you paid the $5 ,000 bail? Yes, I did. You know, where's

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Justin? He's still in jail, right? What? Does that mean, have

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I ransomed you? Have I bailed you out? Have I redeemed you out of your your slavery to the prison system? No, I haven't.

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I've paid a price, but I haven't released the slave, or the captive, slave to sin, right?

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In the same way, it's wrong to say that Jesus has redeemed anyone who remains in their bondage.

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It's wrong to say that he's redeemed somebody who ultimately perishes in their captivity.

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To pay the price, but not redeem the slave, is to be an idiot, is to be, you know, you gave away the money, you paid the price, you didn't get what you paid for, what's the matter with you?

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And we don't think Jesus is so deprived of wisdom in his paying the price of our redemption.

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And so, when you look at those texts, it fits very naturally to hear them say, for many, for men from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation.

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And then you say, okay, well, but what about the world texts, right?

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And we can go there if you want. Yeah, yeah, let's do go there. And that's a great illustration, by the way.

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I listened to a series of sermons that you did on the atonement some months back, a year or so back.

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And I'll put a link down in the description below, dear friends, you can watch those and go and listen to them. I commend them to you.

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But paraphrasing you here, you made the point that if the scope of the atonement is universal, that Jesus paid for the sins of every person, every single person who has ever lived or will live, then you've got this curious juxtaposition of, say, like when

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Christ was literally on the cross, enduring the wrath of God, that you have

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Jesus propitiating God's wrath, the Father's wrath that burns against sin.

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And at the very same time, you have people like you know, Goliath and Pharaoh and, you know,

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Old Testament people who died, obviously, outside of God's salvation, who are in hell at that very moment, suffering the same wrath that Jesus is enduring himself literally at the same time.

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Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I mean, what do you do with that, right? I mean, you're winding up saying that Jesus is dying to provide the opportunity for people to escape wrath who are already, who've already been under wrath for the years that they've died between then and the cross.

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You know, that winds up being I think a hopeless contradiction.

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Now, some people will say, look, the way that Christ, the way that people were saved on credit, right, like the way that somebody's sins are remitted before the cross, because God is looking forward to the cross,

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Romans 3, 25 and 26, right, that overlook the times of ignorance and look forward, you know, to a time when

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Christ would be of appreciation. In that same way, well, God looks forward to that propitiation that provides those unbelievers with the opportunity to believe in their days, right, and they didn't, so that's how they get even the provision.

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But I think ultimately that explanation fails because look, the, you know, if God says, here's the promise, believe it.

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You don't need Christ to die for you in order to say, I believe God's promise. Now, you need

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Christ to die for you in order for your sins to be forgiven and the efficacy and the virtue of that death is what saves anybody in any age.

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But it's not as if all men are sort of locked in the grave and then

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Christ dies for all and then everybody's let out and it's an opportunity. Now, we're back to zero. Now, we're back to where Adam was.

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So, no, it's, everybody's dead in sin, but they still do make choices. They have, you know, desires.

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They're enslaved to sin, but they're not robots. And so it's not as if when you speak the gospel to somebody, you know, they, you know, that like before, like in the

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Old Testament times, when you were to say trust in the coming Messiah and the promised seed that will undo the curse,

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Genesis 3, 15, that somebody would say, well, I can't do that because Christ hasn't died for me yet. No, look to God's people, look to Israel, look to the system of temporary atonement that he's instituted that pushes you toward faith in his promises to the ultimate sacrifice and join yourself to his nation and walk according to his law.

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That's the way that you were to be identified as a person of God. That doesn't, they're not incapable of doing that before Christ dies for them.

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So it's not like Christ makes somebody more savable than they were before. Christ saves the people.

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I mean, as long as there's a God who can save, people are savable, right? It's not as if they have to have their sins atoned for in order to make them savable.

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Their sins being atoned for is what makes them saved. Yes. So yeah, you can't have,

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I mean, I just don't think you can have Goliath and Jezebel in hell at the moment, like receiving the wrath of God while Jesus is being said to propitiate that wrath, to satisfy that wrath.

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Look, propitiation means the efficacious satisfaction of God's wrath. It never means anything else in the scriptures.

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And if that's what propitiation is, then if there is any wrath to pour out on somebody in hell, by definition, that wrath hasn't been propitiated.

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If it was, it wouldn't be there. Galatians 3 14 or 3 13, is it?

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Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law having become a curse for us.

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So when did he become a curse for us? On the cross. In that action, he redeemed us from the curse of the law. Well, if I perish under the curse of the law,

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Christ has not redeemed me from the curse of the law. So you can't call that redemption universal when there are people who don't get it.

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The only way you can do that is to deprecate the definitiveness and the accomplished nature of that redemption and call it a potential redemption or a provisional redemption, which then requires the action or the reception of the believer in order to sort of activate or capitalize upon.

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And I think that that's not the perfect redemption that the scripture presents to us. Christ doesn't say on the cross it has begun.

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Right. Okay, over to you. He says it has, it is finished. It stands accomplished. Yeah. Amen.

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It is finished. Absolutely. Well, Mike, I know the critics watching this and some of my local critics on YouTube, they're gonna say, well, what about, so let me give you a couple of what about verses.

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And there's several we could talk about, but I want to go to two of what I would consider the most difficult verses for your position and my position, but you've written a book on it.

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So let me ask you about 1 John 2 -2 first, and then I'm going to go to a verse that I think is even more difficult than this one.

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1 John 2 -2 And he himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

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So that, a lot of people say that, how do you get around that? Jesus, or excuse me,

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John, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, says that Christ propitiated not only our sins, but the sins of the whole world.

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Right. So it's not, I mean, it's obviously not a short answer, but this is actually one of my favorite particularist texts.

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I think it establishes particular redemption more strongly than most. So, and it's one of my favorites to discuss.

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So, what have we got here? So we've got he himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

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So the question that you have to ask right away is what does the term propitiation mean?

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And one of the things that I do in the book is I go through all of those motifs in the Atonement, expiation, propitiation, reconciliation, redemption.

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And I just say, okay, what does scripture say happens when this is what happens?

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And for propitiation, like I mentioned a moment ago, it's the efficacious satisfaction of divine wrath.

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We see that in Numbers 25 with Phineas and turning away God's wrath.

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We see it in Exodus 32 with Moses interceding for the people. We see it in Numbers, I think it's 16, where the plague goes out and they have to check the plague by making atonement, by making, you know, by kaphar, by propitiating.

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And it says God's wrath is turned away. So when you look at the text on its face, it presents you with a problem, right?

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So if Christ efficaciously satisfies divine wrath for the sins of all people without exception, well, that means hell's got to be empty.

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Everyone's going to heaven. But Jesus says the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction.

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There are many who enter through it, Matthew 7, 13. And so no matter what, both the particularist and the non -particularist, the multiple intentions guy, the four -point

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Calvinist, whatever it is, Arminian, we don't just read this verse in its most superficial sense and become absolute universalist, right?

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Everybody goes to heaven. We say, no, it can't mean that everybody has no wrath.

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And the question is, okay, well, what options do you have there? One is you can modify the substance of the atonement in light of its scope and say, well, it says the whole world, not the whole world have their sins propitiated.

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Therefore, what propitiation means in this verse is a potential propitiation, a provisional propitiation.

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God has made, Jesus has satisfied the wrath of God such that people might be saved if and then follow the conditions.

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Right. And the problem is you've got no exegetical warrant to alter that term propitiation and read it with that definition anywhere else in scripture.

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It never once means a potential propitiation or the provision of propitiation. It always means wrath is definitively turned away.

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Right. So the question is, well, can we, if we can interpret the substance in light of the scope, can we interpret the scope in light of the substance?

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And so then when we ask, if propitiation means the efficacious satisfaction of divine wrath and not all without exception have divine wrath propitiated, is there a way to understand whole world that is not absolutely universal, but is faithful to the intention of the author, to the text, to the context?

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And I say, yes, there are reasons to do that. So the answer would be the whole world here means the elect of God scattered throughout the whole world, right?

33:31

It means all peoples without distinction rather than all persons without exception. John isn't saying

33:37

Christ potentially satisfies God's wrath for the sins of both the elect and non -elect. He's saying Christ efficaciously satisfied the wrath of God against the sins of both the believers to whom he's presently writing to believers in other areas of the world who are alive at that time, as well as the elect who would become believers as time progressed.

33:56

You say, can you prove that? And I say, I think I can. I can give you four reasons for that at least.

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One is contextual. You understand that that John is writing against the influence of false teachers in Asia Minor who are sort of incipient

34:13

Gnostics. Gnosticism wasn't quite until the second century, but you got these folks who were saying, you know, flesh doesn't matter, the spirit is what matters.

34:23

So, we've got, you know, where we've progressed to perfectionism, you know, and so he's actually saying like my little children, if any of you sin, you know, don't be despondent, don't despair.

34:37

We have an advocate with the Father, right? Other places, what else does Gnosticism teach? Elitist, you know, elitism.

34:48

And so, it says in 1 John 2, like, you know, you don't have any need of anybody to teach you.

34:55

You've got the Holy Spirit who dwells in you, right? Why would he say that? Because these heretics are claiming that they have the secret knowledge that other believers didn't.

35:04

They're the super Christians and you are at a disadvantage for that. And so, John is encouraging these believers who were tempted to despair because they find themselves not to be sinners.

35:14

And so, when he writes about Christ's atoning work for them, he's repudiating all vestiges of exclusivism that the false teachers would have insisted upon, and he speaks in the most, you know, broad of terms.

35:31

Jesus is not the propitiation for our sins only, whether the sins of the proto -Gnostic elites rather than the sins of the common

35:38

Christians like them, rather than the sins of the churches in Asia Minor, you know, rather than the sins of believers scattered throughout the whole world, or whether the sins of believers alive in that day rather than the sins of those who would eventually come to faith in Christ.

35:52

Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of all of God's elect people scattered throughout the whole world in all times and in all places.

35:59

The universalistic language is there to combat the exclusivism. And then you say, okay, is there any lexical reason, definitional verbal reason for interpreting the term world less than absolutely universalistically?

36:15

And there are. Even in this letter, I can go to several places, but even in this letter, you go to 1

36:20

John 5, 19, right? Where John himself says, the whole world, same phrase, lies in the power of the evil one.

36:30

So, wait a second. If the whole world must always refer to all people without exception, does that mean that the apostle

36:36

John himself and the believers he was writing to lay in the power of Satan? Well, it could be that because he just says in the immediately preceding verse in 1

36:45

John 5, 18, that the evil one does not touch the one who is born of God. So, the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

36:53

The evil one doesn't touch the one born of God. The whole world doesn't, in that, obviously in that sense, doesn't mean all without exception.

37:00

It means all without distinction, all throughout the whole world, but not in absolutely universal.

37:06

So, that's what would you call it? Precedent for saying, okay, the

37:11

Bible doesn't expect us to see world and immediately assume all without exception.

37:18

Right. One or two more, if you're good with it. Yeah, absolutely. If you notice in 1

37:24

John 2, 2, there's a syntax, there's a form of sentence that develops here that's actually strikingly similar to another aspect of John, another passage in John's writing.

37:38

So, if you look at it, you've got a comment that about the atonement,

37:43

Jesus was going to, or he himself was the propitiation, right? And then a comment about, or then the word for, for, and then a particular group for our sins, and then the phrase, and not for x only, but also, right?

38:03

And not for the nation, or not for ours only rather, but also, and then a larger group for those of the whole world.

38:11

And when you look at the gospel of John, which is written just a few years before the first epistle of John, same author, same time, right?

38:22

You see a similar passage in John 11, verses 49 to 52, where Caiaphas is prophesying about Christ's death.

38:29

He says, it's more profitable that one man would die for the people and the whole nation not perish. And then it says, he didn't say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied, one, that Jesus was going to die, there's a statement about Christ's atonement, for, the word for, a particular group, the nation, that is for the nation of Israel, and then the, and then, and not for x only, but also, and not for the nation only, but in order that he might also gather into one, and then the broader group, the children of God who are scattered abroad.

39:06

So you have the same exact elements in John 11, 51 and 52, as you have in first John 2 too.

39:13

And they, and they're identical, except up till that larger group.

39:19

And I'm going to argue that those, that syntax and those words on the pen of the same author on the same time, intends to communicate the same thing.

39:28

In first John, he says whole world because of the exclusivist false teachers. In gospel of John, he calls the whole world, the children of God who are scattered abroad.

39:39

And so I'm, I'm, I'm saying those are the same people, the elect throughout the whole world. Yeah. And then one last reason, the whole point of John's writing this particular passage is to encourage the, the sinning believers who are tempted to be discouraged by their own sinfulness in the face of this false teacher, these false teachers who say, well, we don't sin anymore in our flesh and you're not in the elite until you stop sinning.

40:06

And so he says, my little children, even if these false teachers tell you that sinless perfectionism is possible,

40:12

I'm telling you that even if you do sin, we have an advocate with the father and he's the propitiation for our sins.

40:19

Your failings may be many, but Jesus Christ, the righteous has fully extinguished the wrath of God against your sins by this propitiatory death.

40:28

And he presently pleads as your advocate on the basis of that perfectly efficacious propitiation that you be brought home to heaven finally, aside from every temptation and every stumbling.

40:42

But the problem is if what he means by the next phrase is that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of all without exception for those who were in hell at that moment.

40:54

Yeah, and those who go to heaven. What would stop the believers replying from saying, well,

41:00

Paul, that's cold comfort. Who cares if he's my propitiator, not Paul, John, that's cold comfort. Who cares if he's my propitiation.

41:07

If he's the propitiation for the sins of people who can eventually find themselves in hell, what comfort is that to me?

41:13

That means that I could wind up going to hell too. You see, it makes absolutely no sense to console sinning believers and assure them of hopes of heaven on the ground of a propitiation that Christ has also made for those who are suffering the wrath of God for eternity.

41:29

That would undo the entirety of John's argument. It can't mean, the whole world can't mean all without exception there without turning

41:38

John's argument into mincemeat. So I think that for those reasons, contextual, lexical, syntactical, and what

41:44

I would call principial reasons, that 1 John 2 is one of the strongest pro -particularist texts in the

41:50

Bible. Excellent. Excellent. Good deal. That was very helpful. Thank you, Mike. Jesus came to not just to make propitiation possible, but he came to actually and effectually propitiate.

42:03

He came to actually and effectually save. Okay, I'm going to give you one more. 2

42:09

Peter 2, 1 But false prophets also arose among the people just as there will also be false teachers among you who will secretly introduce destructive heresies even denying the master who bought them bringing swift destruction upon themselves and of course the the key phrase there

42:31

Peter is talking about false teachers who will be destroyed But they deny the master who bought them

42:41

And people would say well look I mean Jesus purchased even false teachers they deny him, but he purchased them so Help walk us through that text

42:54

Yeah For sure So, I mean the first thing that I want to say is I really want to jump into what it is that bought means

43:01

Right, and so I want to retreat to this if bought adorazo is referring to the redemption that is often

43:09

You know noted in the new testament by the term ex adorazo. So no real Intention to uh to speak of different concepts there to buy them is the same thing as to redeem them um

43:22

You know if that's the case then all of scripture's Definitions, you know the definitional weight of the concept of redemption

43:31

It needs to be brought to bear on this text. And so like we were saying before If this means that christ has paid the price for the redemption the release of these captives but they wind up perishing in their slavery then

43:46

Christ has failed to do what it is that he intended to do, right? Unless christ is buying them for a reason other than saving them

43:55

Right that you know, which doesn't which doesn't make any sense And what scripture never says is the intention for buying or redeeming anybody?

44:03

The only reason you redeem somebody to pay a price for them is to release them, you know, therefore this this term bought

44:10

Can't you know must refer to those who are eventually saved so right away we're confronted with a

44:15

With an attention with an apparent contradiction. Okay. Wait a second What does it mean for christ to redeem those who aren't finally redeemed?

44:22

Does it mean? That he's redeemed them in a potential way and they've rejected that redemption or does it mean he's

44:30

Redeemed he's he's not actually redeemed them uh in the way that uh, some people think

44:37

And I you know, obviously go with the latter and the question is okay But is there a reason that the text gives you for saying?

44:46

The latter is there a reason the text gives you for saying they're not redeemed the way that we would think by Sort of just reading that verse on its face apart from any kind of contextual consideration.

44:55

The answer is yeah There are there are contextual considerations So not only does peter say about these false teachers that the master bought them

45:03

He's still talking about this same group in verse 20 of second peter 2 when he says

45:10

That they have escaped the defilements of the world And that they had come to a knowledge of the lord and savior jesus christ

45:22

And then in verse 21 that they have known the way of righteousness And so I want to submit that in whatever sense

45:30

These false teachers have been bought by the master In that same sense they have escaped the world knew christ and knew the way of righteousness

45:40

I don't think it's sound exegetically to say That he was he's talking about buying these false teachers in one way in verse one

45:48

And then that in a totally different sense these same false teachers have escaped the defilements of the world knew christ and knew the way

45:56

Righteousness. I think that that's that's gratuitous. That's special pleading. It's it's uh random and there's no justification for it

46:03

So in whatever sense they're bought they also escape the defilements of the world knew christ and knew the way of righteousness.

46:10

Well In what sense did the false teachers? Know christ know the way of righteousness and escape the defilements of the world

46:19

The answer is Not that they really did and then they lost their salvation

46:25

Right if you were to if somebody was to ask you If somebody was to say let me let me talk about a person They've escaped the defilements of the world.

46:32

They've known christ and they've known the way of righteousness Would you say naturally that that's referring to somebody who is a believer or an unbeliever?

46:39

Yeah Believer sounds like a believer, right? You know, yeah but you can't say that with these designations without Undermining the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints that that when somebody is saved

46:52

God will finish the work that he started in him and nobody will be lost them Nobody not my father's greater than all greater than all nobody can snatch the sheep out of my father's hand or my hand john 10 28 29, right?

47:04

you know, so So then the question is in what sense then did these people?

47:11

Know christ know the way of righteousness and so on. Well, the answer is they professed to be believers

47:17

Even appeared to others to be believers Right, but they weren't ever really believers

47:22

They were verse one says there these false teachers were among you Verse one says they secretly introduced their destructive heresies into the fellowship

47:31

There weren't outsiders who never claimed to be christians who all of a sudden show up and begin to openly contradict the gospel

47:37

These were former church members insiders who strayed from the teaching of the apostles and they gave every appearance that they had a saving knowledge of christ

47:45

And what do they do? They did first john 2 19 says they do They went out from us, but they weren't really of us because if they were of us they would have remained with us

47:52

Right, but they went out so it'd be shown that they aren't of us peter can say that they've escaped the defilements of the world

48:00

But they never really did escape the defilements of the world. Did they? right peter can say

48:06

They they knew christ, but they never really did know christ They appeared to it looked like it it seemed so for a time they professed so for a time

48:16

Yeah, but in reality It wasn't so yeah, and And uh, and so what and so peter is talking about them

48:26

In a way that people call the judgment of charity speaking to them According to their profession.

48:32

I mean that happens all throughout scripture in john 12, you know, uh It says that judas was one of the disciples of christ, but what does that mean?

48:42

It means he was among the group who followed christ, but was judas ever really a disciple of jesus? No So peter speaks the same way in second peter 2 1 these false teachers

48:53

Had professed to be bought by the master. They appeared to have been bought by the master But they never really and truly had been bought by the master you could paraphrase it as Peter saying these false teachers deny the master they claim had bought them right, and so Uh the same way he's saying these these false teachers claim to have escaped the defilements of the world claim

49:18

To have known christ claim to have known the way of righteousness, but never really did.

49:24

Yeah, and so because in peter's mind The master buying you is synonymous with being saved then uh he you know, he's

49:37

Saying that they only claimed so it seemed so but it was not really so right Same kind of dynamic with hebrews 6, you know, these were people who look like the real deal

49:48

They they certainly formed their hands by the fire But um, but they weren't truly converted false professors

49:55

Yeah, and if you say no that sounds too strange to me. It sounds like you're manipulating the text The the response has got to come back

50:03

Well, but you know the opposite side is going to do that much with saying bought doesn't mean

50:10

Actually paying the price to secure the release of the captain you're gonna you have to say at that point that this is the one place

50:16

Where the term where redemption language doesn't mean what it's always meant and people say that there are there are guys in the book

50:23

Explorers folks, you know scholars who make that argument, you know, um, they'll say that well

50:28

Redemption in the apostle peter is different than redemption in the apostle paul And the problem is peter only uses the word group for redemption twice in both of his letters

50:37

And that's not enough for a good sample size to say It's deviating from the rest of what the holy spirit inspired the other apostles to write so they recognize that you've got to overturn the bible's doctrine of redemption in order to Go in the other direction and I would say this is a smaller mountain to climb though It's technical and though it's complicated complicated or maybe complex

50:58

It's it's a less of a shorter mountain to climb than overturning the consistent definition of redemption everywhere else.

51:05

Yeah Yeah, amen to that All right um, so mike, uh, thank you for that and and Let me ask you this question and critics would say this too.

51:16

So Well, if you believe in a particular redemption limited atonement if you believe in that then isn't particularism isn't that at odds with the universal call or offer of the gospel, how can we say

51:33

For example in our preaching in our teaching in our evangelism. How can we say? that uh

51:39

God loves you because I don't know that the person i'm talking to is one of god's elect. So uh, can

51:44

I say that can I say to someone that that god loves you or uh, if if christ only propitiated the sins of his

51:53

Of his sheep john 10 then um, isn't this at odds with the universal offer and call of the gospel

52:04

Yeah, and you know, so I mean it's a good question, right if if if christ hasn't died for all without exception

52:09

How can we preach the gospel to all without exception and legitimately mean it? um One thing

52:15

I would say look we ought to preach the gospel to all without exception, right? I'm, I know that there are some I would put them in the class of hyper calvinists who will actually say

52:25

Uh, you shouldn't preach the gospel to all you should only preach the gospel to those who give signs of having been elected

52:31

And that's you know contrition and sorrow over sin whatever these sorts of things. I'm i'm not one who believes that I believe that's that's wrong

52:38

I believe that that's what the marrow controversy was about in the uh, 1700s scottish church and and agree with the marrow movement

52:46

Um, I believe the merriment were classic particularists and not uh hypothetical universalists as sometimes uh wrongly concluded

52:54

Because because I think it's totally proper to say uh Christ has died for sinners, right and you find yourself in the class of sinners, right?

53:03

Okay Um, so one I believe we should preach the gospel to all people because I think the scriptures command us to do that Two I can find instances of the gospel being

53:14

Proclaimed universally right alongside of statements of salvific particularism in other words so you have you have isaiah 53 right where um

53:25

It says my servant, you know will justify the many He interceded for the transgressors

53:32

My servant will justify the many and bear their iniquities 53 12. He bore the sin of many

53:38

So those that's those are particularistic particularistic language Uh there in terms of scope

53:43

And then in isaiah 55 not very far off from that very discourse. You have ho everyone who thirsts come to the waters

53:51

Yes, he was in of many Everyone come And then you have like romans 9 where you don't get a more particularistic chapter in the bible than romans 9

54:01

He has mercy on whom he desires And he hardens whom he desires there's vessels of wrath and there's vessels of mercy

54:09

It doesn't depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on god who has mercy particularism

54:16

Sovereignty unconditional election out the ears in romans 9 and then at the end of romans 10

54:22

What if you have but as for israel, he says all the day long I have stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people and stretching out of the hands

54:31

Is is a way of speaking about in inviting all to come I say who

54:36

I want Right. Hey, i'm waiting all day with my hands out stretched for you right, and then

54:42

Very specific in the same passage in matthew 20 11 25 you have

54:49

Jesus saying I praise you father lord in heaven of earth That you have hidden these things from the wise and the intelligent and have revealed them unto infants

54:57

Yes father for this way it was well pleased in your sight So i'm jesus isn't just stating the fact of particularism here

55:04

He's praising god for the fact that he's hidden this truth from from some and give it to others

55:10

That's particularism. Then he says all things have been handed over to me by my father No one knows the son except the father nor does anyone know the father except the son and anyone to whom the son wills to reveal him so I mean, that's just an amazing statement of sovereignty in jesus's own

55:29

Prerogative to save whom he wills. Yes, and then the next words are come to me all who are weary and heavy laden jesus

55:37

If you're the one who reveals the father to everybody What are you doing inviting everybody to yourself for that?

55:43

Those are idols of one another evidently jesus didn't think so so the people who see You know

55:50

Incompatibilism You know that that you know between a particular election and redemption

55:57

And a and a universal gospel call Uh don't have isaiah paul and jesus on their side these we shouldn't feel that tension.

56:05

They don't so we shouldn't feel but I mean ultimately, you know the the answer to this is

56:12

What what What makes an offer genuine? Is not a coextensive provision

56:21

What makes an offer genuine? is If you meet the terms of the offer Every single time you will get what was offered to you

56:29

Right. That's what makes an offer genuine. Yeah, if if the gospel is Come to christ in faith and you will be saved

56:38

The only way that offer is not genuine is if somebody has come to christ in faith and was not saved and that's never happened

56:45

Because even the coming to christ is by the gracious decision and determination of the father

56:51

And by the gracious purchase of christ himself The only reason anybody repents and believes in jesus is because jesus has purchased that repentance and faith for them

57:00

And that the spirit puts them on the basis of christ's good work so As long as as nobody's ever come to christ and been refused salvation that offer is genuine

57:13

It is not a lie to tell every single person in the world If you repent and believe in jesus christ, you will be saved.

57:22

It's not a lie to tell anybody that It doesn't mean that that person is elect or non -elect.

57:27

You have no knowledge of this, right? Even jesus who did have knowledge of it though preached the gospel to all right john 6 64 says

57:35

Uh, jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe and he still preached the gospel to all of them

57:40

Jesus himself says in john 6 64 that he knew who it was Or john says about jesus that he knew who it was he wouldn't believe in him and yet he called

57:48

All people to follow after him and and eat of his flesh and drink of his blood. So um

57:54

There's no incompatibility here And what makes an offer genuine is that if the terms are observed that which is offered will be granted and that happens every time on a calvinistic particularistic um

58:07

Handling of of the gospel so call all without exception

58:13

And trust and trust to god that He will save the ones that he's he's meant to save we we we preach to to all without exception and And oh one more thing

58:27

It's I mean you just said can we not say that god loves you or that christ has died for you? Well No, we don't need to there's no need to assure a sinner of god's love for them

58:38

Nor to assure them that christ has died specifically and personally for them Because there's nowhere in scripture that we ever get an evangelistic conversation

58:48

That has that in it. Nowhere are we instructed to do that in our proclamation of the gospel scripture never says

58:55

Christ has died for you. Therefore believe in him scripture never says Uh, god loves you has a wonderful plan for your life, right scripture says

59:04

You are sinful. You are beholden to the justice of god your creator. You will you will fall into hell eternally

59:13

Unless you turn from your sins and trust in this savior from heaven who has satisfied the demands of god's law

59:21

Who has atoned for the sins of mankind sinners of you know Atone for the sins of his people

59:28

And who has risen from the grave in victory? And he calls you To turn from your sins and trust in him alone

59:36

And if you do you'll be saved it doesn't say he's done this for you specifically. He says he's done it for his own

59:41

He's done it for sinners. I've not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance So he comes for sinners and he does not give help to angels hebrews 2 16

59:50

But he gives help to the seed of abraham so Mankind not angels, but cd abraham sinners not the righteous but sinners if you are

01:00:00

If you are a member of mankind and you are a sinner you qualify for the gospel offer

01:00:06

But it doesn't mean that i'm assuring you that jesus has died specifically and Personally for you any more than i'm assuring you that the father has chosen you from before the foundation of the world

01:00:16

You may have you may have not that's not the basis of the gospel call The basis of the gospel call is that you're a sinner and god has has sent his son for sinners and so you can believe

01:00:27

Yes Amen. So mike, uh, I know I know for me, you know, no one learns more

01:00:33

From a sermon or in this case writing a book than the one who is actually studying and doing the research

01:00:39

So in your process of this Did you? Did you come to any?

01:00:46

epiphanies Uh, did you learn anything new? Yeah, I definitely did.

01:00:51

I think one of the things that was maybe the most rewarding was You know This is this is debate about the intention of the atonement multiple intentions particular intention universal intention

01:01:00

And I was shocked as I scoured the new testament For statements of the purpose of the incarnation of the purpose of christ and dying purpose for the atonement the purpose for the father sending the son

01:01:14

How uniformly scripture presents those those purpose statements as inherently salvific

01:01:24

You know, it is a trustworthy statement worthy of full acceptance that christ jesus came into the world to save Sinners, that's where I got the title from 1st.

01:01:32

Timothy 1 15 Yeah, not to make the salvation of sinners possible not to potentially save sinners not to provide salvation to sinners

01:01:39

But to save them, you know, he he will save his people from their sins

01:01:46

In christ. Jesus has appeared to put away sin You know behold lamb of god who takes away the sin of the world not makes the sin of the world take away evil, right?

01:01:56

So there are just these statements of a definitive purpose That you know,

01:02:01

I think I can say without concern, you know, I mean even there i've come to seek and save that which is lost

01:02:07

We were just talking about that. Yeah Not to seek and potentially save or provide the salvation of I was struck by how uniformly and consistently scripture presents the intention of the atonement as exclusively

01:02:20

And and and uniformly salvific And not provisional I would say and then another thing was um

01:02:29

Making sure you put this in the context of christ priesthood who makes atonement priests do what does the priest do?

01:02:35

The priest offers a sacrifice he slays the animal and he sprinkles the blood in the altar

01:02:40

He intercedes offering and intercession are inextricably linked You can't a priest who who offers a sacrifice but does not intercede is a bad priest

01:02:52

He's a failed priest a priest who intercedes with blood on the altar from an animal. He hasn't offered

01:02:57

One that's an impossibility, but that's also an incomplete priest And what we've what I found is that wherever the work of a priest sacrifice and intercession are presented they're presented as Coextensive and the same side of the or different sides of the same coin

01:03:12

So that it was it cannot be that christ offers for those for whom he doesn't intercede And it cannot be that he intercedes for those for whom he doesn't offer and when you have a passage like in john 17 19 or John 17 9 where he says

01:03:25

I do not pray for the world, but for those who have given me That's a statement of limited intercession

01:03:31

And if he's interceding only for some who are he calls not the world

01:03:37

Then he he has to have offered only for some and not the world What would it mean for the son to have offered the the precious sacrifice of himself?

01:03:46

And then to refuse to plead for them in the courtroom of heaven Or what would it mean for the son to plead for them and the father to say no son?

01:03:54

You've offered for them. You've shed your blood for them, but your blood is not available to me I will not bring them home to heaven. It's unthinkable.

01:04:00

It's impossible and then a third thing is how important it is to set that priesthood in the context of the new covenant christ is the mediator of a new covenant hebrews 8 and uh

01:04:12

The new covenant the nature of the blessings of the new covenant are minimally

01:04:18

Spirit and dwelling the forgiveness of sins and um

01:04:24

Regeneration give you a new heart right take out the heart of stone put in the heart of flesh When you go back to ezekiel 36 or jeremiah 31 and you read

01:04:31

Of what the the the new covenant was to accomplish you don't read of provisions or potentialities or opportunities or offers you read of spirit indwelling

01:04:42

Regeneration forgiveness of sins and if christ calls himself the high priest of the new covenant

01:04:49

And if matthew 26 says his blood is the blood of the new covenant

01:04:55

Then he has shed his blood as the high priest for nothing other than new covenant blessings

01:05:02

And so if common grace isn't what the new covenant said it will provide If gospel offers are what the new covenant said it will it

01:05:09

Aren't part of what the new covenant said it will provide if cosmic restoration is not part of what the new covenant said it will provide

01:05:14

Then all of those things Are outside the scope of what christ has accomplished as the priest of the new covenant shedding the blood of the new covenant

01:05:22

And if the new covenant isn't universal Then the atonement that establishes the new covenant can't be universal.

01:05:29

Those were all I think things that were newer to me at the very least and you know came in real bold relief

01:05:35

That were super helpful Amen. Amen. Very good. Very good uh final question mike so These kind of discussions, you know, are these just for the academicians?

01:05:48

Are they just these just for the theologians and the seminary professors, you know? Are we just talking about?

01:05:55

questions like uh, you know, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or uh, Uh, can god make a rock so heavy you can't lift it?

01:06:03

You know the what what? What are the practical applications? How does this affect us?

01:06:09

In our daily walk with christ and our daily sanctification in our christian living

01:06:15

And in our worship, how how do these discussions flesh out in those practical day -to -day issues for us?

01:06:24

Sinclair ferguson, uh who was gracious enough to endorse the book. He writes on this He says, you know, how can we teach our people to sing amazing love?

01:06:31

How can it be that that my god should die? For me if they don't know what it means that he died for them

01:06:37

If you're confused on what died for means and whether it was for me Right, how is it that you can sing with all your heart amazing love or dear dying lamb?

01:06:49

Thy precious blood shall never lose its power until all the ransomed church of god be saved to sin no more

01:06:56

Or oh perfect redemption the purchase of blood to every believer the promise of god that to the vilest defender

01:07:02

Truth believes that moment from jesus a pardon receives the we sing of these things And if we don't know what it means that he died for us or that the redemption is perfect Then you know,

01:07:12

I don't think we're singing with Integrity or at least not the full breadth and fulsomeness

01:07:17

That a heart ought to be informed with as it raises its voice in praise and doxology doxology is rooted in theology

01:07:26

And so if you're singing oh perfect redemption, but it's a it's a redemption that may have failed in its intention

01:07:32

In what sense is that perfect? You know if if you know that the the blood of christ the dot the blood of the dying lamb is so precious and powerful

01:07:40

That it'll make everyone for whom it was spilled To to be ransomed and brought home to sin no more in heaven

01:07:48

Well, then wait, but if your theology says there are plenty of people for whom that blood was spilled who will not be

01:07:53

Brought home to heaven to sin no more Then what are you praising it for right? Aren't you really only praising your decision to accept it?

01:08:02

Because that's what distinguishes you now. Ultimately. It's not christ's death. That is the determinative cause of your salvation

01:08:09

It's your faith And if in that case, how is it that you do not have you're not at some point praising an action that you did

01:08:18

You say well, well god gave me the faith i'm praising that you know, my faith that god gave me Well now you sound like the pope the tax collector the pharisee rather in luke 18 who says thank god that i'm not a swindler

01:08:30

Thank god that you gave me faith and I had the good sense to believe god What does he say to that man? He didn't go to his house justified, right?

01:08:38

That's scary. You know, yes as a believer You do not need an atonement

01:08:45

That accomplishes potentialities that is sort of an alley oop that you slam dunk home with your faith

01:09:00

You as a believer dead in sin You need an atonement that accomplishes 100 that that that propitiates wrath that puts away sin that reconciles to god that puts away enmity that purchases the slave out of his captivity and Anytime you have something less than that Some of the weight of salvation is then thrust back onto the shoulders of the sinner

01:09:25

And he must even if it's now just believe He must now do something for which

01:09:31

Uh salvation may be granted to him, but the the the particularist says no the atonement is perfect He has accomplished all he has purchased even the faith

01:09:41

That is the instrument whereby you lay hold of these things and it turns faith not into this meritorious grounding procuring cause of salvation

01:09:52

Yeah, god you have to save me because I believed It Returns faith to its proper place as the instrumental cause that empty channel that empty hand that simply receives

01:10:05

What god has done for him in christ? Man there's just so much that I can continue to say but that I want to be able to sing those hymns with integrity

01:10:14

I want to be able to sing That my savior is a mighty savior that he's accomplished all that i'm not in any sense my co -savior

01:10:21

And that really it's simply the bankrupt empty -handed trust in a mighty redemption and a mighty redeemer

01:10:29

That that saves me It has been granted to us to believe in christ

01:10:35

And to suffer for a second. Amen. Amen Mike, thank you so very much brother.

01:10:40

This has been a wonderful time with you. Uh, Really excited about your book and um, thank you for joining us and friends again the links

01:10:49

Down below there in the description to mike's book to save sinners a critical evaluation of the multiple intentions view of the atonement

01:10:59

Mike would not tell you this but I will tell you I think mike riccardi is is one of the finest

01:11:06

Not only one of the finest theological minds that we have today, but he's also just a he's a really good guy

01:11:12

I like mike i'm honored to call you Mike i'm honored to call you my friend. Thank you so much for giving us your time today

01:11:20

Well, it's feeling is mutual justin. I love you very much and and uh, it's always a pleasure to spend time with you whether like this or in person and Guys, i'd say the same thing about him

01:11:31

Oh Thank you so much brother. Thank you. God bless you and your family and uh

01:11:36

Dear ones. Thank you. I hope this has been helpful for you. Uh a lot of ground We've covered and a lot of food for thought.

01:11:43

I encourage you to get this book and it's it's written not only for the

01:11:49

Theologian not only for the professor but it's also written for the pastor and for the lay person the lay person who wants to Learn more of god and that should be true of all of us

01:11:59

Whether we're in ministry or whether we're um a plumber or a or an accountant or whatever

01:12:05

So, um, this is a very very helpful resource all the links down below including to The sermons that mike preached on the scope of the atonement