February 10, 2020 Show with Conference Interviews featuring Andrew Smith and Doug Wilson

Iron Sharpens Iron

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen You Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida Champaign County, Illinois and the rest of humanity living on planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming to iron sharpens iron radio .com

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My name is Eric Nielsen. I am sitting in once again for Chris Arnzen today and over the past few days

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We have been listening to interviews from recent conferences Today we are continuing with two interviews from the recent

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G3 2020 conference this past January and Chris first sat down with Pastor Andrew Smith you might recognize

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Andrew Smith from the recent shows with Chris on this day in church history and Following that we will have

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Chris's interview with Pastor Doug Wilson Let's begin by listening to this discussion between Chris Arnzen and Andrew Smith here

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I am again on site at the g3 conference 2020 in Atlanta, Georgia at the

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Georgia International Convention Center, and I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest my friend

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Andrew Smith Pastor of Christ Reform Community Church in st. John's, Florida, and it's great to have you back

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Thank You Chris, it's good to actually see your face while we do these interviews. Yes, and I am suspecting very strongly that you're lying about that I'll accept the compliments

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Enjoy the face -to -face fellowship. Yes better than a telephone. I Do as well.

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Well for those of our listeners hearing you for the first time on iron sharpens iron radio

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Or for the first time anywhere else. Why don't you tell our listeners about Christ Reform Community Church in st

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John's, Florida Yeah, I'd be glad to so we're an independent reformed congregation.

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We're still considered a church plant I started the church four years ago and by God's grace we're growing and just purchased a new facility and we'll be moving out of the school that we've been meeting in and and Become more like a like a real established church, which is really exciting

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We're a confessional church We believe in the value of the confessions and teaching through the confessions and having a robust doctrine as the foundation of the church and I'm an expository preacher

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So I just preached through books of the Bible and one of the things that I'm looking forward to when we get in the new

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Facility is being able to have multiple services a week and So yeah, we were there in Jacksonville st.

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Augustine that area just south of Jacksonville And a lot of the people that end up coming to our church are

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People that actually are moving to the area because it's a high -growth area So they're looking for a reformed church when they get there

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And so the Lord's just been so gracious to give us some very solid church members who love the

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Lord and love the Word of God and I've had enough conversations with church planters to know that there can be some challenges at the beginning especially

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With people who see a new church plant And then they want to come in and kind of do church their way instead of according to the scripture

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But God has really preserved us and bringing In the group that we have people who who are on the same page as we are because they move there in many

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Respects for that particular church, and we're looking for it. So it's a great ministry

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I pastor great people and it's a privilege just to be able to preach God's Word every every Lord's Day You know once in a while I will have a conversation

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With a friend Who is a Christian from outside of the reformed faith?

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Where they will say, you know, what's with you? reformed people

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Where you always have to bring up the fact that you're reformed. You always have to Throw around that word reformed.

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Why are you so preoccupied with that? Well, typically my answer to that is well what we really mean is the the very important vital aspects of the scriptures that are being ignored or even disbelieved or opposed

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By many other people in Christendom are things that we are in love with they're excited about and believe that every

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Christian should be in love with and excited about and therefore We are bringing up something that needs to be highlighted, which is tragically very often absent

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From Christian speech from pulpits from Christian conversations from Christian media. That's the way

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I answer that. How do you answer that? No, I completely agree. I mean I'm reformed

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Because I believe the Bible teaches those doctrines of grace that is fit within the reformed tradition

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When we started the church, we had this discussion about In the elders meeting what to name the church, you know, and inevitably we discussed should we include the word reformed in it and That conversation honestly didn't last long because my argument was

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This is an opportunity to Full disclosure to be honest with people about a term.

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We shouldn't be afraid of the term reformed highlights historically and biblically

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What the purest branches of Christianity have taught regarding the gospel, you know regarding God's sovereign grace very critical doctrines like election and predestination and perseverance of the

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Saints So instead of that term being threatening we we wanted to use it in our church title so that as soon as people came they

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Would ask that question. What does reformed mean? so that it would give us an opportunity to be able to teach scripture to them and so I think it's hard to it's hard to be a church and not be identified with a particular theology because there are so many aberrant forms of theology and I believe that the doctrines of grace teach the purest form of the gospel

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Which is at the heart of divine revelation and God revealing himself to us So to us it was sort of like a no -brainer and provided an opportunity as an issue of integrity to say

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This is who we are. We want you to be part of this church, but this is what we believe this is what we're going to preach and that way you sort of protect the identity of the church, which

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I think is part of being a steward and a shepherd and you're being a steward of the doctrines of the

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Word of God, and you're not afraid to unashamedly declare those truths because the

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Bible teaches them not because They simply fit within the reformed tradition, but because the

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Bible itself teaches those doctrines Yes, I believe that There is no other system of theology outside of the reformed faith that elevates

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God to his proper place and his holiness, his sovereignty, his righteousness, his authority and lowers man to his proper place

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His helplessness, his hopelessness, his impotence without the power of the

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Holy Spirit to regenerate him and without Christ giving us new hearts

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Removing our hearts of stone and replacing them with hearts of flesh There is no other system that consistently and logically gives 100 % of the praise honor and glory to God for our salvation and all good things that we receive because even though most other

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Theological schemes and most other denominations and fellowships

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Those outside of the reformed faith would claim They give a hundred percent of the praise honor and glory to Christ when you dissect their system their their ideology their theology you can see that what they believe

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Requires that much more credit is given to man. Yes, then the Bible will allow

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Yeah, yeah, and think how many church planners? I mean, I was just talking to a brother earlier here at the conference who?

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Manning a booth for a seminary and We were talking about how so much literature on church planting is just purely

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Pragmatism and it's all just what works what's convenient What do people want and and you can't operate that way if if you're a true pure Biblicist you you have to operate as a church planner according to what the

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Bible says and So as a church plant to identify yourself at the beginning as being reformed

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You are you know, you're drawing a line in the sand and you're saying this is where we stand. We're standing on Scripture that's the foundation.

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We want this church to be built on and And we can't equivocate on these things and we won't equivocate on these things

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At the same time if someone is is not fully embracing everything that's in the reformed tradition

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But they're teachable then we would will embrace them and and work with them and pray that the

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Lord would change their hearts and and Make them a strong member of the church and we've had opportunities to do that Since the church started so all the glory goes to the

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Lord It doesn't go to the church planter people become followers not of a man Like myself, but they become become followers of the

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Lord and there's also that built -in accountability That that says we're not just making up doctrine we're believing and teaching things that the church has believed and taught and died for for hundreds of years and That's tremendously compelling because it makes a church plant not about a personality or any one person

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But about the Word of God and the truth of God and as you said Chris the glory of God Which is the most important thing?

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What can you say? about how the

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Reformed Faith Has impacted your life your faith

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Perhaps even in ways that might not be automatically assumed by someone when they hear about a

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Individual becoming and even being a Calvinist a believer in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace What are what are some of the ways that that even might not be ordinarily thought of in the way that it has?

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broadened your your faith and deepened it and Made it more rich.

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Yeah Well, I mean, that's a great question And I I think that people assume that the doctrines of grace are just theological ideas abstract ideas

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And there's not there's no, you know practical application to them and a lot of people will have that argument

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They'll say well, it's fine that you believe that and those those doctrines may be true But what impact does it have on my own life?

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especially if God is sovereign and he has elected and Predetermined who's going to be saved and so what's the point of doing anything and there can almost be this complacent apathetic

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Really a hyper Calvinism Which I don't think dominates reformed circles, but but I have ran into hyper

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Calvinists occasionally but I go back to my own testimony, you know, I grew up in a

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Christian home and You know, I struggled with the assurance of my salvation for a number of years really up until my early teenage years and One day

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I was reading and it was really a series of different evenings where I couldn't sleep and I was reading the scriptures and I was reading in the

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Gospel of John and where Jesus says all that the Father gives to me

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Will come to me and those who come to me. I will not cast away and It dawned on me in that moment that Instead of sitting there trying to figure out am

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I elect or not elect? Trust in the promise of Jesus that all that come to him.

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He won't reject He won't cast away. So the evidence of being elect is your love and your desire to follow

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Christ Well, that's immensely practical because now it removes this mystery of trying to plumb the depths of the

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Providence of God and trying to determine am I elect as this person elect? you know, it's it's

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Practical and it's assuring to know that if if I have a desire to follow

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Christ all the glory goes to him It's because the Spirit of God has drawn me to Christ So that even my faith itself is evidence and my repentance is evidence that that I am elect

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And so it's not just abstract that was immensely assuring to me to know that at the end of the day

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It's not my level of faith It's the object of who my faith is in and the fact that this

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Savior it has been Predetermined that he would save his elect people die for them redeem them and that they would be preserved until the end

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So it really touches at the heart of even my own testimony the doctrines of grace Amen, one of the things that I know

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Is a great blessing that comes through the Reformed faith is

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Knowing that all things even the saddest most painful moments of my life

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Have been decreed by God and that This is not something that is taking

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God by surprise, even if it takes me by surprise by By no means and certainly does not take

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God by surprise but not only that it is something that he is purposefully intended and designed and Decreed to occur in my life.

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And since I am a Christian It is certainly promised to me that it will work together for the good

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Because as that precious promise Is laid out in Romans 8 28 that all things work together for the good for those who love

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God and are the cold Of the cold according to his purpose It's amazing to me how many people even some of the most dedicated

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Christians Find that a horrifying concept that we would say when something horrific and tragic and catastrophic happens in someone's life to attribute that To the divine decree and the very hand of God himself

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They find that Very often monstrous and are baffled. Why on earth would you find comfort in that?

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Why would you find comfort in God the one that is supposed to be all merciful all loving all kind all compassionate why on earth would you get comfort from knowing that he is the source of this and My answer to that is is because it gives it purpose if I thought that what

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I am going through What I am experiencing in a negative way and a very frightening or sorrowful way

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Is purposeless That would only magnify the pain in my understanding. Well, how do you respond to people that?

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That react in that way. They are mystified why we would actually Attribute God For being the ultimate source of everything that occurs and everything we go through I go back to that very passage

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Romans 8 and in the context of Romans 8 The sovereignty of God the working out of all things together for our good is in the context in the framework of comfort you know the whole point of him saying that is

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To say if you are elect if you've been foreknown if if you've been predestined before the foundation of the world

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You can have the assurance You know that God is working all things out for your good

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And so in Scripture, there's a pattern when God's sovereignty and God's grace is being spoken about It's never used as a terrifying thing.

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It's always used as a comforting tool and That's the way I think we need to to view it and teach the doctrines of grace that this is the most comforting

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Thing imaginable even in that Romans 8 passage in verse 26 if you back up Paul says likewise you know, you don't even know how to pray as you ought to pray and But the

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Spirit with his groans prays for you So you have the Spirit the earnestness of the

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Spirit praying for us when we don't know how to pray you have Christ Who is our mediator and intercessor who is praying for us?

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So that even prayer which is often viewed as something well There's that's something I can do if I just pray more

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I can even that God is in control of our prayers because It's Christ Whose prayers he's hearing as our intercessor.

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It's the Spirit's groans We're even incompetent when it comes to prayer and we're dependent upon the grace and and the mercy of God Even for our prayers to rise and to ascend to heaven

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That's comforting to me because that takes all the pressure off of me and I can rest in in that fact even in my own prayer life, which is often viewed as as As a work of the flesh and even it is not a work of the flesh

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It's something God is doing for us as we pray in the Spirit and pray along with the

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Spirit praying at all times with all Prayer and supplication with Thanksgiving. Let your request be made known to God the scriptures say

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So I think it again. It's very practical because prayer could be something someone could say there's evidence right there

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God's not sovereign. Why does he ask us to pray? You know if he already knows what's gonna happen well in that Romans 8 passage prayer is talked about but it's in the context of God's being sovereign over all things and Who wouldn't be comforted by that if you really sit and think about it?

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yes, the fact that God Has decreed to use means to bring about his purposes in no way

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Diminishes his sovereignty or control or authority over these things. He is the one

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Designed that means would be used in his hand and means Being among them us and what we do in obedience to him to serve him and That is

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Something that is interestingly enough Misunderstood by both

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Armenians and hyper Calvinists Who have a caricatured understanding of Calvinism or the reformed faith where God has operated to decree things to occur without the instrumentality of the means of human activity and so on and The both ends of the spectrum and opposite ends in opposition to each other

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Arminianism and hyper Calvinism seem to agree that that's what the

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Reformed faith teaches and yet that is clearly not what it has historically ever thought. Yeah. Amen I mean he he's ordained the end and he's ordained the means to the end and Either God is sovereign or he's not, you know, he's either meticulously sovereign

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Or he's not sovereign at all. You know there you can't Relinquish from God the total control that he has over the universe because at the point you do that Is in the point at which what hope is there?

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What comfort is there? What surety is there? He's either totally sovereign or he's not sovereign at all.

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I mean for God to be God. He has to be Completely sovereign. I think that's what the Bible teaches from beginning to end and Again, that goes back to you know, the question at the beginning why use the word reformed?

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Because I think it provides an opportunity to talk about God in these traditionally theologically rich reformed terms

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That That help people understand that these these aren't just terms, but this is what the

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Bible itself actually teaches And it's a handy summarized way to say this is what

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I believe, you know in five points I believe more than this but but this is the basis of what

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I believe and it's critical because it touches every Every single point of the

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Christians life in the church's life as well for that matter We have to break into this discussion to hear some words from our sponsors.

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That's Battery Depot calm Welcome back to iron sharpens iron radio

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I'm Eric Nielsen and we are listening to an interview with Pastor Andrew Smith from the recent g3

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Conference in January 2020. Let's continue to listen. That's one thing

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That We Have been accused especially we who are

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Reformed Baptists. We have been accused Perhaps especially by our

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Pato Baptist brethren who share our Reformed faith that we are really we have really isolated our faith and understanding of The doctrines of God's sovereignty to the five points alone that we are really not experiencing enjoying

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Proclaiming and practicing the fully or Understanding of what it means to be reforms.

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How do you respond to that criticism that I've heard? in fact very recently even

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Through the blessing of the Internet That we Reformed Baptists were we're just all about the five points and Have become

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Just too overly enamored with those points alone and Never growing beyond that if you will.

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Yeah. Well, I would say a truly Reformed Baptist would would follow

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What historically Reformed Baptists have followed which means they're not just Reformed in their soteriology or in the five points, but they're also

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Reformed in their ecclesiology and and which means and we're at a conference on worship, which means they're

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Reformed in their worship and John MacArthur, I think said it best when he You know talking about the young restless reform movement

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He didn't I don't think he talked about it this conference, but he's he's talked about it in the past That the thing that's missing from that movement is that you have a people that may be

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Hold to the five points so -called five points of Calvinism But they're not

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Reformed in any other sense, you know, whether it's in their ecclesiology They're not their preaching is not always expositional

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Well, if you study historically Reformed Baptists, you will find that they were expositional in their preaching

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They were Reformed in their ecclesiology. They were Reformed in their worship and Heavy in in in Bible reading and prayer in the corporate worship

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The songs were were often they sing the Psalms although not all the

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Reformed Baptists were opposed to singing hymns, but it was Their singing was filled with theologically rich lyrics

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So I think that in that young restless reform movement there They have given reef true

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Reformed Baptists a bad name if I can put it that way where You know people that are

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Presbyterian And are you know part of that more confessional

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Presbyterian? Ilk they look at Reformed Baptists and kind of laugh, you know and and and think that there's no true

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Reformed Baptist but there are true Reformed Baptists that that are Essentially only different from Presbyterians on the issue of baptism and of course church government

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Yeah church polity Reformed Baptists is historically Believed in the autonomy of local congregations where there is no

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Ecclesiastical authority higher Than the local elder. Yeah, and that Christ alone and his inerrant

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God -breathed Word Are the only things that are above the local leadership of the church and of course everybody in the congregation, right?

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yep, absolutely and That's where some of the conflict comes with our with our

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Reformed Brethren who are Pato Baptist Presbyterian and other denominations ironically

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They will say that we are less Reformed Because we in their minds

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Resemble less the reformers. Yeah, because they were predominantly if not

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Exclusively and of course initially in the Reformation. They were all Pato Baptists and they did not have an independent autonomous understanding of church government, however,

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I believe that Reformed Baptists are more consistent in pursuing and living out the intention of The reformers especially when it comes to sola scriptura and dare

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I say even so is Christus Because we are following not what the traditions and councils of men have

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Insisted upon We test everything by the scripture and we have come to the conclusion from the scripture that baptism is for repentant believers alone that it is by immersion in water and that the the church government taught in scripture is local

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The local autonomy of every congregation Because we see no examples in the scripture of presbyteries or denominational hierarchies

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So I think we are actually living out in a more Faithful way the intention of the reformers even though the reformers did not yet arrive there.

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Yeah Well, and MacArthur said that you know, the Reformation just didn't go far enough, right? It's interesting.

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We're talking about this I was just the reason I was smiling is because on this date January 17th, right

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January 17th 1525 Zwingli in Zurich had a debate and this this debate in Zurich is really where the idea of Infant baptism being a sign of the covenant was sort of made official and and following that event in Zurich It was a debate not an

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Anabaptist or yeah. Well Conrad Grebel, right and Felix Mance were the opposing side

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They were Anabaptists and at this this debate that's when the Anabaptists began to be persecuted

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When it became official that that this that infant baptism was a sign of the covenant and so that was 1525 before that was really formalized as a

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You know what today Presbyterians would say is part and parcel of their theological system understanding the nature of the covenant itself

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So again, this is where I think church history is helpful in thinking through these issues the thing that I'm encouraged about is that Pato Baptists and Credo Baptists Are unified and and far more than they differ.

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Yeah, and when I come to conferences like this, right You meet you see

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Presbyterians and Baptists getting along on the most important things the essentials the things that matter and and my

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Interactions with both Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians just by in God's grace

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I guess I know the kind ones, you know, the ones that aren't always looking to throw a rock, you know

38:43

We should have convictions and we should You know If you're a confessional church, that doesn't mean that the confessions go over the

38:51

Bible, right? If you're truly confessional the confessions just supplement scripture scripture is the foundation

38:57

Otherwise, you're compromising sola scriptura Which is in many ways the first principle of the

39:03

Protestant Reformation and of the Reformed tradition so these things can get really complex when you're dealing with relationships with other believers that agree with you on like 95 % of everything else

39:19

So it's good to have these conversations and it's it's good to know that there's one body in Christ there's one head of the church and We can all learn from one another on these issues.

39:30

Yes, it's One of the difficult things in life

39:38

Is when you have Christians Who rightfully are

39:46

Concerned with Preserving the purity of biblical teaching preserving biblical truth

39:58

Being very concerned over biblical accuracy while at the same time being sinners

40:10

So therefore those things combined Unfortunately on occasion and with some people more frequently than others comes out with Unnecessary harshness arrogance pride

40:31

And the way they respond to brothers who differ with us is a very key thing

40:41

We should never let the fear of men Keep us silent when we see differences that we disagree with but at the same time we always have to respond to this in humility and And The last thing that the doctrines of grace should ever do

41:00

The opposite of what they should do is make men pride Make men proud.

41:06

I'm sorry. Yeah And They should always humble us to the dust

41:13

Knowing that That we owe all to God Nothing it comes from any innate goodness in us and yet over and over and over again

41:24

Being sinners we even allow the thing that which makes us should make us most humble to make us most proud.

41:31

Amen Yeah, no, I always tell people that If we know the doctrines of grace then we of all people need to know the grace of the doctrines

41:41

We need to be able to demonstrate grace and charity and love Being firm on our convictions.

41:47

We can still be firm in our convictions and preach the truth and agree to disagree But we need to be very careful what we

41:55

You know disfellowship with others about it better it better be over a you know a truly pivotal

42:01

Cardinal doctrine in Scripture or we're really on the edge of violating

42:07

I think a Lot of scriptures commands and even in first John if you say you love

42:12

God, but you hate your brother You're not you know, you're not in the kingdom. You're not truly of God that that's serious stuff that that I think we and especially as Things get more and more secular in the

42:26

United States, you know, we need to find areas Without compromising anything But we need to find areas where we we agree on things and and focus on the gospel and focus on those things

42:40

While at the same time being firm in our convictions and not capitulating now one thing that Reform people have been accused of and There is obviously a reason we've been accused of this but we have been accused perhaps more than it more than anyone we've been accused of this by our fundamentalist friends and brothers and sisters of Perhaps putting the writings and the thinking and the genius of men in their writings perhaps even predominantly from Eras past years past but even including contemporary writings

43:38

Placing these things above the scripture now, obviously a rightful

43:48

They were a rightly thinking Reformed Christian is never doing that But we definitely have a well -deserved reputation

44:00

For having an insatiable appetite for for great Christian literature extra biblical

44:06

Christian literature and I think That that comes from a very right understanding of our own

44:16

Inability to know everything that is taught in Scripture to the fullest degree that we

44:23

Can can understand it Not that we will ever achieve that fullness of accuracy and understanding

44:31

But we know we know that we need teachers and the Bible teaches us that we need teachers and for someone to think

44:39

I don't need any other book than the Bible ever is Demonstrating that they don't think they need a teacher

44:47

And these great works of literature and the creeds and confessions that are biblically accurate

44:54

Are merely God's gracious provision to us of teachers Yeah, and it just so happens that many of them are in heaven and they have left the legacy of their writings behind so As it has been said so law script or does not mean so low script.

45:11

Oh, yeah, that's right. That's great. Yeah So having said that and knowing that you agree with me that That a

45:22

Faithful Christian should be a well -read Christian and obviously reading the best and most biblically accurate of Christian writings

45:37

And Then that it does not violate solo script or obviously only the scripture is our

45:42

Soul and final infallible and inerrant authority, but at the same time We benefit greatly by by learning from great minds that God has placed in the church.

45:54

So having said that What are five of the

46:00

The greatest books that you can think of that That every listener in our audience should possess.

46:09

Oh Five I only get five. Yeah. Okay for for time restraint.

46:15

Yeah. Yeah other than the Bible obviously. Yes I mean because you made that pretty clear. So Yeah, my top five

46:22

First of all, I would say anything in the Puritan paperback series by banner of truth I mean, there's more than five books in that banner of truth org banner of truth org and also

46:32

CV bbs .com CV bbs .com sponsor of I interpret on radio who sell

46:39

All of the banner of truth's titles, but go ahead and I get no credit for that. So that was a free commercial but I Would say that that any of those are good

46:49

But I would the Institutes of the Christian religion are pretty important and I think a lot of Christians are intimidated by John Calvin But they shouldn't be he's actually very accessible

46:59

Especially if you get a good good translation even more accessible than somebody from Subsequent centuries

47:08

John Owen. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's very true And so people need to read the

47:15

Institutes of the Christian religion. I would say that's probably number one I think that It just recently came out

47:25

But John MacArthur's book that came out on biblical doctrine is an excellent book

47:34

You know the title of it's called biblical doctrine Yeah Creative title, but it's it's excellent.

47:43

I would say that Body of divinity is a pretty important work

47:49

Of evangelism and the sovereignty of God by J. I Packer is a critical work and I think

48:00

Matthew Henry's commentaries are Very helpful. They're they're timeless, you know, so I think that if you have

48:12

You know Matthew Henry's commentaries and you have your Bible That's a that's a great that's a great place to start and so you get you get kind of your your exegetical practical stuff from Matthew Henry And of course, we can't forget something that every library should contain your best life now

48:32

But and then I think you're having your theology kind of informed and supported by the

48:38

Institutes is excellent Every Christian ought to know how to evangelize. So I think you know

48:43

Packer's book on that is excellent And yeah, so those would probably be my my five

48:51

Although that's a hard, you know If you ask me tomorrow my five might change although the Institutes of the

48:56

Christian religion would not change that would definitely and of course Since we do believe in solo script

49:02

Torah, even though we may greatly benefit from human authors

49:07

We have to be diligent not to repeat their errors and one of the most mystifying errors within Christendom is regarding our dear brother and mentor to many a

49:21

J .I. Packer who Unexplainably inexplicably Embraced Embraces to my knowledge still a ecumenical understanding of our relationship with Rome.

49:35

Yeah. Yeah, very sad Doesn't make any sense because he clearly has a

49:43

Masterful understanding of the sovereignty of God in the gospel and what the pure gospel is

49:50

So it's just yeah, I totally agree and and it's you know, it's sort of like like John Stott to John Stott's Commentaries are are really excellent, you know for the most part.

50:02

They're they're they're solid IVP, you know puts them out but you know, there's another example of someone who kind of jumped ship and and So we wouldn't we wouldn't back

50:15

Martin Lloyd -Jones. I believe broke fellowship with them. He sure did. Yeah, he sure did and So yeah, we can we can promote certain works and not it's not meaning that we're endorsing

50:27

Everything the person has ever said and ever ever written You know, although people like John MacArthur and R .C.

50:34

Sproul I would endorse, you know everything they've written because they are so driven by truth and they've you're talking about a long life of ministry

50:42

Where they've never capitulated and there have been people throughout church history Spurgeon would be one that anything you can read on Spurgeon that Spurgeon wrote is going to be excellent any of his sermons so There are people like that but then there are other people throughout church history that that there are certain works that are solid and then they're imperfect men and By endorsing one work.

51:06

We're not endorsing everything that they wrote Which again reminds us of God's grace and and his his mercy we're all in need of that and we ought to be very prayerful as we're students of scripture that we're interpreting it properly and and So that we're not guilty of heresy

51:26

That would be in grievous error. If I did not mention a key sponsor of iron chirping's iron radio solid dash ground books .com

51:35

Solid dash ground books .com. That's the website for solid ground Christian books Operated by Mike Gaydosh, and I would strongly advise you to also consult solid dash ground books .com

51:49

for their Their advice their recommendations for five or more books that every library should possess

52:01

But I want to thank you so much pastor Andrew for being my guest once again.

52:06

I look forward to you Doing conducting another interview on this day in church history

52:13

With us on some profound dates That I hope is an ongoing

52:20

Special on iron chirping's iron radio with you Why don't you let our listeners know how they can hear your podcast on that very theme and also?

52:29

How they can contact you at great at Christ Reformed Community Church in st. Johns, Florida Yeah, absolutely.

52:36

So I'll start with the church. You can go to our website www .christreformedcc .com

52:43

There's information about our church there and our Address where we meet at the school if people are visiting in the area or moving to the area they can find us

52:51

You can also go to www .heartaflame .org And there

52:57

I have all my sermons archived as well as all the today in church history podcasts archived

53:04

And then you can also go to Apple iTunes and subscribe to today in church history But folks just need to make sure they spell history h i s hyphen s t o r y

53:14

Today in church his story Would be another way to say that and yeah, that's where you can find me

53:21

What sounds great and thank you so much again, and I look forward to many future returns on iron chirping's iron radio.

53:28

Thank you, Chris It's always a blessing. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with pastor

53:33

Andrew Smith at this time We're going to take our midway break to hear some of the things that our sponsors have to offer

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59:16

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59:33

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01:00:38

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01:00:58

Which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

01:01:06

Lord Jesus Christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God If you live near Franklin, Tennessee in Franklin is just south of Nashville Maybe ten minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby

01:01:24

We hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church Our website is

01:01:37

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01:03:29

Welcome back to iron sharpens iron radio. I am Eric Nielsen I am sitting in for Chris Arnson today, and we've been listening to interviews from the 2020 g3 conference

01:03:42

This next interview is a conversation that Chris Arnson had with pastor

01:03:47

Doug Wilson Chris Arnson here again on site at the g3 conference at the

01:03:52

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia a suburb of Atlanta, and I'm thrilled to have back on iron sharpens iron radio here

01:04:01

Doug Wilson pastor of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho prolific writer and Well -known

01:04:09

Christian thinker and apologist. It's great to have you back on the program. Thanks. Thanks for the invite Yeah, why don't you tell our listeners about Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho?

01:04:18

all right, so Christ Church is a Presbyterian church in a small college town of Moscow, Idaho 20 about 20 ,000 people in the in the town university town

01:04:30

Quiet little community great place to bring up kids. It's a fairly large church for that community so we have 800 people on a

01:04:43

Sunday And then in all our all our services between 900

01:04:48

To a thousand people so it's a it's a significant presence in the town in in the town and And so we have

01:04:59

We are Traditional Presbyterian in our worship, so we're not it's not a contemporary service.

01:05:05

We sing psalms We it's a formal liturgy, but we don't we're not roped up. We're it's a it's a liturgical service without smells and bells

01:05:17

Now is it exclusive somebody no I call it. I call it dominant song to me

01:05:23

Okay, so I want to sing mostly psalms And we want to sing all the psalms we want to become conversant in all the psalms, but we're not averse to singing uninspired songs mm -hmm and What would be some of the other unique things that perhaps would set

01:05:40

Christ Church? Apart from you're not only your average Evangelical Church, but even perhaps even your average

01:05:47

Presbyterian Church we The things that would set us apart if you move there, and you started attending what what things would you notice in the first month?

01:05:58

right the first thing would be the psalms and we sing a number of Reformation era psalms and so it's not it's not

01:06:08

The Music is odd, so it's not the musical style of our psalmody is oftentimes syncopated and not

01:06:16

If you're familiar with the Trinity hymnal That's more the psalms are more like hymns, and we have a number of those psalms and hymns

01:06:23

But we also have what Queen Elizabeth the first called Geneva jigs You know where they're lively and syncopated and very it's a different kind of music

01:06:33

So that's one thing you notice on the first Sunday another thing you notice is we practice weekly communion

01:06:39

So our service is an hour and a half long and it culminates every week in a communion service

01:06:46

So we sing a lot We we sing probably 15 songs in the course of an hour and a half service

01:06:53

And it culminates in the Lord's Supper the sermon is like 45 minutes long

01:06:59

So weekly communion is another Thing that you might not be accustomed to elsewhere, and then probably the other most visible thing is

01:07:10

Little kids staying we don't have Children's Church kids state. It's a

01:07:15

I Guess the name for we don't call it this but it's a family integrated church where the the kids stay through the whole worship service and We're not

01:07:26

We're not tight -shoed paid a communionists in that we don't give we're

01:07:32

Presbyterian, so we baptize we baptize infants And we practice what

01:07:37

I call child communion where kids are brought to the table very early But we don't give the elements to Infants just home from the hospital conked out in the car back

01:07:53

And There are some that do that and I notice that you are a part of those manning the booth here at g3 for Cross -politic yes, so what you tell our listeners about cross -politic so cross -politic is

01:08:09

One of the guys and cross -politic the three guys are David Shannon There are chocolate knocks his nickname by the way,

01:08:17

I wanted to introduce myself to him as vanilla Channon Haven't done it yet And then

01:08:26

Gabe wrench and then pastor Toby Sumter, so these this is a ministry pursuit of theirs, but Gabe wrench is a deacon in our congregation and Pastor Sumter is an associate pastor at Christ Church and David Shannon is a minister a member in good standing in our church, so it's a it's an enterprise that Arose out of our community that is sort of a going concern on its own and One of the things that I've admired about observing

01:09:07

Your friendship with my longtime friend dr.. James R. White is that you can hold to views that are in opposition to a brother in Christ and yet have enough humility and Wisdom To know where to where to draw the line

01:09:34

As to the severity of separation right when you when you are communicating and Interacting and having fellowship and varying degrees with brethren in Christ It seems that the

01:09:52

Sadly in the body of Christ you have one extreme of rampant ecumenism

01:10:00

With anybody that may identify himself as a Christian whether they are in reality one or not right and even of course you have the

01:10:09

Apostate leftists who would have ecumenical relations with those that deny and even perhaps hate

01:10:16

Jesus Christ and his word and everything it stands for but but of course those of us in the reforms community

01:10:24

And this also probably predominantly exists With our brothers in the fundamentalist community we tend to be more

01:10:35

Explosive and severe Where we draw a sharper lines of division and get more upset over Differences now.

01:10:46

I believe I'm sure you agree that we should be tenacious to preserve

01:10:52

Doctrinal purity, but would you believe to be true right? Yeah, what counsel can you give?

01:10:59

As to developing that discernment of where to draw those lines and how sharply to draw them and how to respond to brethren when they do have

01:11:09

Differences to yours. So I I agree with your breakdown of this Wholeheartedly, so you've got the the liberals theological liberals who want to embrace everybody and everything and then you've got except us

01:11:23

Except us and then you've got the fundamentalists who would split over anything, you know and so you have church splits over whether to baptize with heads upstream or heads downstream and and there's

01:11:36

Who needs that? And the thing I would say generally you can't really argue with the liberals because they they're just they just go limp

01:11:44

It's just a puddle But if you if I'm talking to someone who says well

01:11:49

The Bible says come out from among you and be be separate and truth matters Every Bible verse matters and we've got to defend the faith if I'm talking to someone like that I would say, you know,

01:11:59

I agree with that, but I my complaint with you is that you're not defending the faith when you withdraw into your own little ghetto and an echo chamber and everybody thinks like everybody else and No dissent is tolerated

01:12:18

What you're doing is you're not defending the faith because you're bringing you're growing kids up in the greenhouse And when they go when they go out and have to face actual weather they're not going to be able to Take it.

01:12:32

So one of the best ways I think if if we find the sweet spot where I'm fully convinced in my own mind about certain doctrinal things

01:12:40

I'm pedo -baptist and James White is a Baptist and you know, we have we've debated before on the

01:12:49

Text of Scripture and different issues like that if I have good fellowship with him and I do and We differ sharply and we can talk about it.

01:12:59

Then what that is doing is Helping me stay sharp on those points. If if all

01:13:05

I heard were yes, man, if all I heard were Oh, yes, you've you're following that I'm gonna get fat and lazy on On those issues and kids growing up in that in that system are gonna get fat and lazy

01:13:17

And then they're gonna go over at the first So the I think there's real value in being fully convinced in your own mind and having good

01:13:26

Relationships with good friends who know how to push you And they know how to ask a hard question

01:13:32

And you can still have fellowship Right, and you have to be able to say well, that's a good question.

01:13:38

That's a better question. You asked last time immediately what comes to mind is the friendship, although many people who

01:13:46

Read their Discourses with one another might be shocked to learn that they were friends, especially from the writings of John Wesley, but John Wesley and George Whitfield Were brothers who loved each other but were still animated and Sometimes fierce in the way that they disagreed with one another theologically over the

01:14:13

Calvinism -Arminian divide and Amazingly in spite of that tension

01:14:20

Before George Whitfield died. He requested that John Wesley preach at his funeral which he did when that when that day came

01:14:28

Yes, do you do you think that? That is something that Seems to be overlooked or ignored in the

01:14:40

Reformed community today where in a a rightful

01:14:46

Preservation or protection of truth and of course this this noble attitude to want to protect and preserve truth and to avoid and warn against error when that Noble activity is in the hands of sinners who have a

01:15:10

Tendency to pride on occasion that we mishandle that responsibility and that we sometimes shun brothers who disagree to our own

01:15:21

To our own I wouldn't say peril but to our own Loss to our own loss of taking advantage of the

01:15:31

The wisdom that even a brother who disagrees may possess and this is related to the point

01:15:37

I was making earlier and that is as a pastor my my job is not to warn

01:15:43

The people my people about error. My job is to protect them from error

01:15:49

Okay, oftentimes warners discernment types just feel like well My job is over if I just warn them if I just say something and then after everything goes wrong

01:15:59

They can say I told you so but my job is as a pastor is to keep the bad thing from happening

01:16:05

It's not just to get my conscience clear by saying something beforehand so people can warn

01:16:12

People can can warn people about dangers in such an ineffectual way that they make all the people they're talking to want to go do that thing

01:16:19

Right, and if I do that if I'm the Pharisee wagging my finger under their nose,

01:16:25

I'm warning them, but I'm not protecting them Right.

01:16:30

So what I want to do is I want to warn them when necessary. I want to talk to them in such a way that They they want to hear what

01:16:38

I have to say and one of the ways that you can the one of the ways you accumulate capital in so that people in your flock want to hear what you have to say is by having a

01:16:49

Demonstrated record of not being that guy who is always finding a problem with everybody

01:16:55

Right, right So one time I was this apply. I did this in a marriage counseling session.

01:17:02

I Asked for some reason I asked the husband I said I said do you consistently get bad service in restaurants wherever you go?

01:17:12

And I saw his wife smile So he he's thinking why just have high standards or I'm scrupulous or you know, no, he's just being that guy

01:17:22

He's he's two tons of no fun People don't want to be with him. And so that that kind of person who want who's a

01:17:31

Warner Is not the kind of person who can effectively warn Right, and so my job is a shepherd

01:17:39

Of course the Bible talks about shepherds do have to warn and there are times when shepherds have to warn short sharply

01:17:47

But if you're warning sharply every 10 minutes, right, you're the boy that called wolf

01:17:53

That's that's what you're becoming and and you're feeling good because you say wolf a lot

01:17:59

But you're not protecting the flock, yeah that reminds me of something that I discussed with a guest not long ago that There are a lot of conservative preachers whether they be

01:18:15

Calvinist fundamentalists who rightly Rebuke those involved in ear tickling when they teach

01:18:27

But the the fact of the matter is I think that all too often When people hear about ear tickling they are automatically exclusively thinking about preachers and teachers who are declaring a syrupy sweet mushy gushy kind of Gospel that is no gospel at all

01:18:53

But I think that there is another side to that if you are a member of a very strict conservative church and you are only

01:19:05

Teaching about the sins that are common amongst other Denominations or religious groups or even the world at large amongst the lost if you're only

01:19:17

Harping on those sins that may not be common amongst your own body that you're in a sense

01:19:22

I think tickling ears as well because there are people who crave that yeah Yeah, and we have to remember that Pharisee ism because it's always pointed to sins of other people

01:19:33

Pharisee Pharisee ism is fleshly right so When Paul says in Colossians that that there's a certain sort of will worship that prohibits this and prohibits that and he says but These prohibitions are of no value in checking fleshly indulgence

01:19:52

In other words the person who says no no no it looks like he's being strict

01:19:58

But he's not being biblical Right and if you're being strict, but not biblical well, that's fleshly

01:20:05

That's you're catering to you're catering to the flesh some people like being told

01:20:10

Oh do whatever you want some people like being slapped around But the issue is not what people like the issue is what does

01:20:18

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind

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01:23:42

That's chris arnson at gmail .com Welcome back to iron sharpens iron radio

01:23:51

I'm Eric Nielsen sitting in for Chris Arnson and we are listening to Chris Arnson's Conversation with Pastor Doug Wilson from the

01:23:59

January 2020 g3 conference one thing that I wanted to ask you about that I don't believe

01:24:05

I ever have Is my first Introduction to you actually,

01:24:16

I don't know if you even remember this I first had you on iron sharpens iron radio when an

01:24:21

Orthodox Presbyterian Church had rented a movie theater to show your your dialogues with the late

01:24:33

Christopher Hitchens, yeah and I was wondering if you could tell us anything

01:24:39

I mean, obviously there may be personal things that you don't want to divulge but something about your relationship friendship with Christopher Hitchens that may reveal things that you that we

01:24:51

I should say Did not know about him or or about your friendship with him. I Actually had arranged a debate

01:25:01

With him and dr. James R white and He had accepted to do it very cordially

01:25:08

I could still remember him calling me Back.

01:25:13

I was unaware that he was out of the country And I had left a number of voicemail messages for him

01:25:22

And he had didn't respond to them and he and he called me back very profusely apologetic.

01:25:27

I was actually disarmed by his friendliness Mm -hmm and his humor and his gregariousness and Even his is he was he told me how impressed he was by Dr.

01:25:44

White's biography you know his bio sketch and so on and I was disarmed by that because having seen him in public being yeah, the staunch and somewhat nasty person on occasion.

01:25:58

Yeah, I Became you know, I mean as much as I could in that brief period of time

01:26:04

I'd be ended like this person right and then it tragically his publicist Believe her name was

01:26:11

Amy fee or I know her last name was fee because he made a joke with it I joke about it. He said perfect name for an agent, isn't it fee?

01:26:19

That's what he said to me But um, I was saddened when he knew when the debate had to be pulled off because he had developed

01:26:25

I believe it was a esophageal cancer, which eventually took his life. What can you tell us about your relationship with him?

01:26:31

So you You've judged things from that distance. I think very accurately

01:26:37

I had a good deal of interaction with him. We We debated first online

01:26:44

When he released his book God is not great he he Issue he refused to do the book release party in Manhattan where a bunch of atheists would drink wine wine with him and eat cheese and congratulate him on his book

01:27:01

He told his publicist that he wanted to issue a challenge to all comers And I think his book release thing was in Arkansas or somewhere and he said he would debate anyone

01:27:10

He debated all kinds of people as part of his book release tour, but I'm convinced that what he did

01:27:18

What he was doing there is I think he was far more curious about Christians and Christianity than he let on and He had quite a fan base

01:27:31

Atheistic fan base and I think he did this debate tour as a way of being able to hang out with Christians without arousing hostility from his fans and his

01:27:43

He was never rude to me except on stage right, so The root the rudeness on stage was part of his shtick right that was just and it was part of his

01:27:55

He's very clever very witty and he would make a joke at your expense as a way of not answering the question

01:28:02

Yeah, he was just very slippery and very good that way. He was very very clever and but in person

01:28:11

He was affable and easy to get along with we got we got along famously Off stage and we got along fine on stage too, but it was and so what happened is we

01:28:25

We debated first online Christianity today hosted the debate and it got a lot of traction and so the book was pitched and the book was is

01:28:36

Christianity good for the world that Christopher and I co -wrote and Canon Press released it and then when the book was coming out

01:28:45

Aaron Wrench who's with Canon Press arranged for a book release

01:28:52

Mini tour and so I flew to New York and we met in well yeah, we we met in New York and then flew to Philadelphia and then

01:29:04

To DC Washington took the train down to DC We flew from hell from New York to Philly in a helicopter together

01:29:12

And and a film crew came along doing the whole thing so we were doing this book release tour and We had those three debates

01:29:22

New York Philly and Philadelphia. It was in Van Till Hall in at Westminster Seminary and then in a pub in Georgetown and I told

01:29:33

Christopher when we were about to get on the helicopter I said I want you to know my faith in God is genuine and sincere because I'm getting into that thing with you so We had we we had those encounters and then

01:29:49

Darren Doan made the film collision out of out of that book release tour and then

01:29:56

I had a few other Interactions with him one time appeared in Dallas at Christian booksellers thing on a panel with him and So we had this ongoing

01:30:10

Relationship then after he was diagnosed with esophageal cancer I had some contact with him after that, but And part of this

01:30:22

I can tell you part of it. I won't tell you I sent him a letter An email and I wrote a letter to him

01:30:30

Where I just laid out the gospel for Christopher Hitchens. This is this is the gospel you need to hear and And then in the email as I said

01:30:41

Christopher, I have no way of knowing if you open this attachment Reading it. I don't I won't know it's between you and God.

01:30:47

I just wanted you to have it and If you don't open it, you'll be really really bad because there's some really good writing in there

01:30:57

And I'm I'm fairly confident that he he read it I wrote it for him particularly and then

01:31:05

Was something my father taught me and my father is the most gifted personal evangelist I've I know he's just he's he's amazing and One of the things my dad taught me was that non -believers go through three stages

01:31:21

As they're coming to Christ. The first one is when they announced to you You'll never convert me or I'll never be your kind of Christian or I'll never you know

01:31:30

What they've just told you is they've been thinking about it In fact, I don't know if you know who

01:31:35

Peter Jeffrey is who's now in heaven. He was a Welsh pastor and writer prolific writer pastor of the first church that Martyn Lloyd -Jones

01:31:46

Pastored Sanfields. Yeah, he wrote a book called. I will never become a Christian and it was basically

01:31:53

Showing all the arguments typically of people who resist Christ and then and then infuting them.

01:31:58

Well, that's stage one I'll never be a Christian, but that tells you that it's on their mind Right stage two is when they say something like if I became a

01:32:08

Christian would I have to give up drinking beer? Or if I became a Christian when I have to go to the mission field or if I if I did would this happen?

01:32:17

And then the third stage is when I become a Christian, you know I'll never become a

01:32:22

Christian if I become a Christian when I become a Christian and in the months leading up to his death Christopher was at least at stage two

01:32:32

Because Because I saw him do this on at least a couple of instances in a couple of instances

01:32:38

He said if you ever read because interviewers would say so you've been you're terminally ill

01:32:44

Have you been rethinking this God thing at all? And he'd say no, but and then he would say

01:32:50

If you hear a report that Christopher Hitchens has called out to God on his deathbed

01:32:55

You can just assume that the medications got to me or the cancer got to my brain or something like that Well, what what that tells you is that Christopher Hitchens was worried about that?

01:33:07

Yes He was worried that he was gonna call on God Right, and he was preparing a story for his fans beforehand

01:33:16

If I became a Christian, it's a medical event. His reputation became his idol. Yes.

01:33:22

That's exactly what happened and So I'm friends with Peters with Christopher's brother

01:33:30

Peter Hitchens who wrote a very fine book called the rage against God He was an atheist like Christopher and Came back to came back to God and his book rage against God is very very good and and Peter once said that all

01:33:48

Christopher's defenses are at the city perimeter, you know All the barbed wire all the machine guns are there

01:33:54

Because if you breach the city wall, there's nothing to the city center. Yeah, in other words

01:34:01

I would I want to say that that Peter that Christopher was very clever very quick But his atheism was brittle.

01:34:10

Hmm, you know he and he was just a sheer act of the will just Hanging on to I think it was a will

01:34:19

Will sort of thing so if he were to Surrender to God before he died

01:34:27

And everybody's all surprised in heaven Christopher Hitchens wouldn't be the biggest surprise

01:34:32

God God's done that sort of thing Now, I don't think we should say that somebody

01:34:38

I liked died and so we're gonna wish him in there, right? You know, so he he knew too much

01:34:44

To be able to for him to be saved on the basis. He needed to call on the

01:34:49

Lord He needed to submit and call on the Lord and I have no way of knowing No way of knowing whether he did but be nice you have some reason for hope

01:35:03

I yeah I don't I've not written Christopher off Yes, I have been surprised having conversations with Brethren in Christ even pastors if I happen to ask about So were your parents a

01:35:19

Christian No, they weren't are they still with us? No, they're both sadly in hell, you know, they passed away in there in hell

01:35:29

Were you with them when they were dying? No How do you know that then

01:35:35

I mean We were you evangelizing them while they were alive? Yes Why why are you so certain if you were not there hearing them cursing

01:35:45

God on their last breath or rejecting him? How do you know that that's yeah, it's something that I'm always puzzled by when

01:35:52

I hear I'm I take great comfort in the fact that the judge of the earth is not me, right? And now of course,

01:35:59

I'm not saying that people are going to be in eternity with Christ who reject them

01:36:04

Reject them all they were alive I'm saying that we don't have to be there When that moment comes right when that gift of faith is given to them and their new heart

01:36:12

Right is given to them by Christ after he removes their hearts of stone We don't have to be there watching and listening, right?

01:36:19

What do you think our listeners? Can learn in their own everyday conversations with neighbors who are

01:36:30

Unbelievers agnostics atheists what can they learn from your own experiences with Christopher Hitchens?

01:36:39

Basically I think Christians of all stripes need to Consider their unbelieving family members and friends and neighbors as not projects

01:36:52

They're they're people they bear the image of God Hospitality works on them

01:36:59

Kindness works. Yes as Rosario Butterfield has expressed in her own testimony. Yeah, good example and and so too too often evangelistically minded

01:37:11

Christians Drift into sometimes a gunslinger attitude how many notches do you have in your

01:37:18

Bible right and and the non -believers considered as a plat delivery platform for opposing arguments

01:37:26

Instead of a person and what what you want to do is you want to have the things you say?

01:37:33

Be things that go straight at the heart and not at whatever is coming out of their head

01:37:39

Because those aren't enough things they aren't the same thing the Romans 1 tells you that they're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness and We should speak as though what

01:37:50

God says about the atheist is true Not what the atheist says about the atheist is true

01:37:56

And what God says about the atheist is that he's creating the image of God that image is shattered that image is

01:38:02

Marred and has been vandalized, but it's still there and it reminds him of the

01:38:07

God He's in rebellion against so the image. I like to use is the non -believer. Who's suppressing the truth and unrighteousness is someone who is holding an overinflated beach ball under the water and his arms are quivering and Your job as an evangelist is to come up and poke his arms

01:38:27

Say Hey, what you doing? You know now? I'm reminded why James White says you're a brilliant words

01:38:38

Because they're actively trying to keep something under and your job is to have the thing they're trying to keep under come to the surface

01:38:46

That's your job your job is not if they say oh, there's no beach ball here And you say oh,

01:38:52

I'm sorry. I thought there was No you have to now you you sometimes need to act as though you're dislodging the beach ball without talking about it

01:39:02

Right you don't have to bring it up Verbally, but you might do it by inviting them over for dinner going bowling with the guy or helping him plant his hedge you know and one thing that I've been curious about is

01:39:21

The inconsistencies That Christopher had in his ideology that I think every atheist has in one form or another

01:39:31

But I remember and I don't I don't remember the exact title of the debate that he agreed to do with James White that never happened

01:39:40

But I know it was based on a chapter in one of his books And I believe the title or the theme was is the

01:39:50

New Testament evil Did you ever get an answer from him as to how an atheist could even determine what is evil

01:39:59

No, I never got that answer. I pressed it. I pressed him on it, so there's one moment in collision where I Said good and evil by what standard he said that's a good question, and I said

01:40:11

I know I know yeah, that was one of the points where he would slip off.

01:40:17

I think he knew The import of what I was asking and did not have an answer you know so Sam Harris does this

01:40:25

Dawkins does it Christopher Hitchens did it where they got morally indignant? just got on their high horse about all kinds of things and My argument was

01:40:35

Christopher There is no God who cares You know why are you indignant about anything?

01:40:43

it makes it it makes no sense and And yet he would You know he would trot it out.

01:40:51

He would he would do that attempt it. How about the irony of people like Christopher?

01:40:57

who Say they believe God does not exist and yet they are obsessed with him

01:41:04

Yeah, I joke that there are two tenants to modern atheism one. There is no

01:41:09

God and two I hate him Right and C .s. Lewis talks about this and surprised by joy.

01:41:14

I was very angry with God for not existing He was in a world of contradictions and and this is the the thing

01:41:23

I was Wanting to make sure I brought up. I There were two topics that would get

01:41:29

Christopher to go off like a bottle rocket just explode and one was the fatherhood of God and The other was the substitutionary propitiate propitiation of Christ on the cross

01:41:43

Those two topics would just get him, and I think the former was a clear father hunger kind of thing because he insisted on treating it like it was

01:41:55

God is a cosmic North Korean dictator, and we're living in a surveillance state you know that So that's how he that's how he treated it

01:42:04

And on on propitiation, that's where he would say the New Testament's immoral because God kills this person

01:42:13

So he could let that person go and you know he he thought he thought propitious vicarious substitutionary

01:42:20

Atonement was profoundly immoral child abuse child abuse, but the answer to that is

01:42:27

Christopher we're just protoplasm. What do you what do you mean immoral? Exactly and Did he ever admit that The zeal and passion with which atheists often defend and proselytize their views is

01:42:54

Inescapably the the activity of a religious person

01:43:00

I Don't remember that Topic coming up, but he was certainly he certainly fit the profile

01:43:07

He was in fact I may have said this to him at one point That ties in with that.

01:43:13

I said you would have made a very good Puritan Because his his moral indignation his gift to Denunciation you know he was very gifted in that he just had he just had no foundation for it

01:43:30

But but we have to evaluate we're creating the image of God we have to make moral distinctions

01:43:36

We can no more not do that than to stop breathing No, I've heard and I think someone who knew him if I'm not mistaken confirmed this

01:43:46

But I had heard that he was Opposed to abortion yes He's he was pro -life, and he maintained that understanding as far as I know did what did he give a reason for that?

01:43:59

And not that I'm not that I know do you know of other views that he may have had that are typically exclusively the views of Either Bible believing

01:44:08

Christians, or you might want to include Orthodox Jews and even Muslims about homosexuality Anything like that I mean an atheist might possibly opposed to it because it's counterproductive to the preservation of the species or something now

01:44:21

He was um he was not above making jokes at the expense of homosexuals

01:44:27

But he was sexual Liberty and he he was not a defender of traditional civil

01:44:36

Civilizational values there, but he also didn't treat sexual predilections as equal

01:44:42

You know so he would he would Feel free to I remember hearing make a joke at somebody's expense that way very very un

01:44:52

PC joke You know about Someone's sexual behavior, so he was he was like that he was

01:45:01

The other thing that what happened was that and this was an odd thing he had many evangelical

01:45:09

Readers he he had many evangelical fans, and I think that that happened after he dismayed the left he he'd spent a time as a

01:45:20

Communist right all that and then after 9 -11 he

01:45:28

Flipped around and supported George W. Bush's war in Iraq and that put him on the outs with a

01:45:37

Bunch of people on the left, and I think one in at least a hearing among many conservative

01:45:42

Christian types but basically the only genuinely anomalous

01:45:49

Position I know of was his opposition to abortion now. I have heard some atheists even though most

01:45:57

That I've heard at least in the media. I don't have that many close friends that are atheists

01:46:04

But I have heard atheists on occasion admit that they believe even though they are convinced at least they say they're convinced because Romans one comes into play and how how much of an atheist they really are but You know

01:46:19

I want to bring that up in a minute, and let me know if I'm abusing your time too much but I've heard some atheists admit

01:46:28

That they believe that the world is better off that Christians exist even though they are convinced these

01:46:36

Christians Are living their lives according to fairy tales and myths? They believe that these myths are compelling them to Live as loving caring compassionate and decent beings which makes life even better for their atheist neighbors

01:46:52

What kind of understanding in that ballpark did? Christopher I I think that Christopher was

01:47:00

Getting close to that right because there's a moment in collision right near the end

01:47:07

Where he says something very Close that he said if we've done our job splendidly, and we've convinced everyone and there's only one

01:47:15

Christian left He's telling the story about what he said to a group of other atheists and Richard Dawkins was there

01:47:22

And he said and we had one person left to convert and I could convert him. He said I wouldn't do it

01:47:29

And and Dawkins said what do you mean? You wouldn't do it, and he said I don't know I just wouldn't I just I just wouldn't do it

01:47:36

He didn't want to see faith go out of the world you go out of the world And I think what's happened.

01:47:43

I don't think this was full -blown in Christopher's thinking because I think we're farther down the road, but I think some of the

01:47:52

Some of the early attacks on Christians lumping us in with fundamentalist

01:47:59

Muslims was simply a cheap trick you know beware of all fundamentalists because they're gonna blow you up beware of all fundamentalists because this is what religious zeal does and and so What happened,

01:48:14

I think is we're as we're going farther and farther down the road. I think some atheists are having second thoughts about that rhetorical ploy because they're starting to see that cultures shaped by Muslims and cultures shaped by Christians are very very different You know and I think they rightly see that there is more

01:48:39

Liberty of conscience freedom You know civilizational scope in the kind of place that Christians Build so I think that that's

01:48:49

I think that that's dawning on some atheists. Yeah, yes Yeah, in fact I had the privilege recently of Doing a voiceover recording

01:48:58

I in addition to my radio program I do voiceovers on occasion some for documentaries and so on and I don't know if you're familiar with the

01:49:07

Christ Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah, but they did a tribute to Jay Gresham Machen, and I did the voiceover of HL Mencken the atheist journalist yeah

01:49:22

Who wrote an obituary? Praising Machen even though he disagreed with his religious conclusions.

01:49:30

Yes, he admired him greatly yes and He You would have other than if obviously

01:49:41

Mencken included some mockery of Christianity in intertwined with his obituary praising

01:49:49

Machen But if those were removed you might think that Mencken was even a

01:49:55

Bible -believing Christian if those had been removed. Yeah did Christopher as far as you know have

01:50:02

Any great admiration for notable? Christian Figures theologians perhaps you

01:50:09

I don't know if he ever shared with you anything like that about his admiration for you in those

01:50:15

Areas, but did he have that way of? separating An ideology and religion that he disagreed with with with being able to admire you he was like Mencken in that way

01:50:29

So and he did compliment me once and the compliment was

01:50:35

Wilson really believes it so he was He was debating all comers and some of the people he debated were just dialing it in and we're sorry excuses

01:50:46

He would debate liberal rabbis. He debated Al Sharpton on you know he the whole range and his compliment for me was

01:50:57

Wilson actually thinks the Apostles Creed happened and and if someone really thinks that and defends it ably

01:51:06

He was more than prepared to admire that Yes, great. Well.

01:51:12

I would love to talk for another hour about this perhaps I can invite you back on my show sometime, and we continue the conversation.

01:51:19

I just don't want to rob your time too much Thanks for having me, but I would like you to share a little bit with our audience

01:51:26

About your blues group Yes, I I saw one video of you guys, and I loved it

01:51:33

Was that the pots one yes? Yes hold your piece. Yes, that's it so I've got the the name of it's sort of an ad hoc

01:51:44

Band that when I have an idea or want to put something together it's called the

01:51:49

Jenny Geddes band and Jenny Geddes is the Scottish woman who threw her milking stool at the

01:51:57

Anglican At the Anglican who tried to introduce Anglican worship back into Reformation Scotland so Jenny Geddes went down in history as the one who

01:52:09

Said how dare you do that in in in my church, and she flung her stool at them

01:52:14

So you can look up Jenny Geddes a stool and Google images. There's there's a museum in Scotland that has

01:52:20

Cool it has her has her stool anyway, it's the Jenny Geddes band named after her and and We've done a couple of videos

01:52:30

They're on my there. There's a video section on my blog you can go there and and so occasionally if the

01:52:38

Whim takes me I think I'd like to do that or I'd like to do something like that I enjoy the blues very much, and do you have you continued recording?

01:52:47

Yeah, occasionally we've done. I've gotten Kind of busy over the last year, so I'm I wanted to cover at some point of The Johnny Cash song when the man comes around oh wow

01:53:00

Worked on that a little bit. I'd love to do that. Yeah, I love that song very briefly last, but not least

01:53:07

Any counsel to Christians That rightly enjoy

01:53:15

Things of this earth That we have a liberty to partake in While at the same time not boastfully

01:53:27

Misusing these liberties to the stumbling of other brethren

01:53:34

There are people obviously we I was talking earlier about the opposite ends of spectrums on things as far as ecumenism, but also with Christian Liberty Yeah, there are strict

01:53:49

Fundamentalists even amongst some reformed people who would teach total abstinence

01:53:56

And anything else is sin when in regard to Alcohol consumption. I happen to be a former drunk, and I believe that for myself

01:54:06

Total abstinence is required. I am I am not going to partake in in any part any amount of alcohol, but I have thankfully been given a

01:54:17

Gift of God that I no longer desire it in any way shape or form and I have fellowship with my brothers and sisters who?

01:54:24

partake in that Liberty responsibly and I believe that Christians do have that that Liberty if they are not abusing it right or have not a reputation

01:54:34

As I did a scandalous reputation for abusing it So there's the

01:54:40

One extreme of being a Pharisee without even using scriptural mandate

01:54:47

Condemning not only the practice of something like moderate consumption of alcohol, but condemning the people who are doing it and also the other end of the spectrum, which

01:54:56

I have witnessed all too often sadly of those that Go overboard in A Mockery of those that believe in abstinence and rubbing the the

01:55:10

Liberty to consume alcohol in their face and Behaving in somewhat of a juvenile way

01:55:18

I believe I call it swinging your Liberty around on the end of a rope right yeah So any kind of counsel and that would even go along with where you draw the line with enjoying and even performing

01:55:31

Secular music and things some people think that if you're a Christian, and you love music

01:55:36

You should only be listening to Christian music and only if you're if you are actually gifted as a singer or musician that you should

01:55:42

Only be performing Christian music, and I have always said where do you get that in the Bible as long as you're not?

01:55:47

Singing something that is absolutely offensive to God Why is that why is it wrong to sing a love song to your wife or something?

01:55:54

But if you could yeah, so You as you queued up this question you use the the phrase things of earth

01:56:01

And it reminded me of a book written by a friend of mine Joe Rigney called the things of earth

01:56:06

And it's a very very good book where he wrestles with a bunch of the issues.

01:56:12

You know John Piper John Piper is famous for Christian hedonism you know right

01:56:20

But as I wrote a blog post where I I agree with Piper his argument as far as it goes, but I've wanted to argue that there should be more bacon and beer

01:56:33

You know John Piper is too little too high -minded, and I thought there ought to be more materiality exulting in God's goodness in the things of earth right and Joe Rigney took that thought any any made a book out of very very good book

01:56:50

So that's the first thing I recommend that book the second thing is That the fortunately the

01:56:57

New Testament has explicit instructions on this subject We have

01:57:03

Christian liberty, but don't let your evil your liberty be the thing that you exercise liberty in be evil spoken of right, so I don't and if If a brother,

01:57:14

I must not submit to a Pharisee, but I must accommodate a weaker brother right so if to use the example of music if Let's say

01:57:27

I'm I've got a next -door neighbor. Who's a stone total stoner and for the last 15 years

01:57:33

He's never listened to rock music where he wasn't stoned out of his brains and He can't disassociate those two things right

01:57:43

If I have him over, I'm not gonna be playing that kind of right, right? I'm not gonna be playing that kind of music even though I have the liberty to listen to that kind of music

01:57:50

I'm not gonna do that because I love my brother Same thing on on the use of alcohol same

01:57:56

You know that that sort of thing you love your brother first and so Paul says I would not eat meat or drink wine forever

01:58:02

It keeps my brother from stumbling. That's that's what I want to do so basically

01:58:08

Love your brother is that in the New Testament in 1st Corinthians 14 and Rome Romans 14.

01:58:14

We've got detailed instructions on how to navigate Adiaphora the things in different the things that are not sinful in themselves a backbeat is not sinful in itself a blues lick is not sinful in itself alcohol is not sinful in itself, but They are frequently been occasions of sin for many people and so you love your brother.

01:58:37

It's just that simple Right I have shared with some of my reform brethren it's a tragedy that you have brothers in Christ who are vehement anti Calvinist, and they may be fundamentalists and You are unnecessarily adding alcohol consumption as a sixth point of Calvinism and a rite of passage right in this conversation where Those kinds of things regarding Liberty can come later.

01:59:05

Yes, and then cigars are the seventh point Why don't you give our listeners your website sure

01:59:11

Doug wills .com D O U G W I L s .com

01:59:17

and it's blog and may blog and from there you can navigate to pretty much everything that That I'm involved in well

01:59:24

It's been a joy to have you back in the program, and I look forward to your return to iron sharpens iron radio Thank you for the invitation I hope you've enjoyed today's interviews and that you've gained some new insights or things to think about Please tune in again to iron sharpens iron radio over the next few days as we will be hearing more interviews from the g3 conference and as Chris Arnzen would say