Teacher Fired (Member of Apologia)

The Teacher’s Firing and the Public School Controversy

Hi guys, welcome to a very special edition of Next Week with Jeff Durbin. I'm Jeff Durbin and I am here with Anela Crum and we are here to give your story, to talk. Anela is a member of Apologia Church and she is married to Matthew.

And some of you guys may have seen recently on our platforms, we shared an article from the East Valley Tribune. We weren't sharing the article to say that what's in this article is true. We were sharing the article because we wanted to introduce everybody to this controversy and we wanted to give you the opportunity to actually tell your side, your witness to what took place.

The article says, Chandler teacher fired for religious anti-gay actions. Chandler Unified School District fired an art teacher for allegedly discriminating against a transgender student and bringing a box of Bibles to her classroom.

Anela's conduct at Arizona College Preparatory Erie, okay, was described as, quote, objectionable, disrespectful, and unprofessional, unquote, in a report by a district staff to the governing board. Students accused Crum of freely discussing her Christian beliefs in class and expressing anti-gay viewpoints, including she thought homosexuals were, quote, just confused.

So the allegations led to her termination earlier this month and so we'll get into a little bit more of this article but let's start talking about this and let's allow you the opportunity to give your side of the story.

So we'll start with that. You're working at a public school institution and you're an art teacher. So let's just, give me a minute on that. Tell me about who you are, what you do, and how you got that job.

Okay, so I got my job right out of college, basically, and I wasn't saved at the time when I got the job. So I've been working there for the past three years. When I got my job originally there, I kind of started teaching mid-year.

So the teacher that I had taken the place of left mid-year. So all of the students were adopted. They didn't have a parent for half a year, basically. So that's kind of also the situation that I had to leave them in, which was really sad to me, too, because I left them in the beginning of the year.

So I came to ACP right out of college, just kind of winged it through my first two years, and then this is my third and a half year teaching there.

So, yeah.

And you came to Christ after you started all this. So tell us about that, coming to Christ.

So about a year and a half ago is when I really started asking the big questions and going to church and really being truly questioning who Christ is, what is my relationship with God. And I mean, I've always had a basis of God in my life as this all-knowing being, but I didn't really have a relationship with God at all.

But in my last year, it became really apparent to me that there's a lot, that, I mean, my eyes were being opened to through me reading the Bible and just study and growth that I couldn't, in a public school system, like be okay with anymore.

You know, so.

Neutrality in Public Education Is a Myth

So this gives you an interesting point, is that you're a Christian now as a teacher, as an art teacher in a public school institution. Now, what we like to think, and we talk about this a lot at Apologia, you're fairly new to Apologia Church.

Yes.

But we talk about this a lot. We have for many, many years at Apologia Church is that the public school institutions like to pretend that they're a neutral place, right? Like we can educate people and we can tell them about history and science and arithmetic.

We can tell them these things and we can do it as neutral parties. But we've always said that's a pretended neutrality, that neutrality is actually a myth and it's impossible. We've encouraged at Apologia Church, our families to homeschool and to Christian school their children because education is not neutral.

And I think what's happened to you, and we're gonna get into some details here, is a great glowing example of just that point is that education is not neutral and it's impossible to be neutral because you weren't allowed to be a Christian who's a teacher in an educational institution.

You weren't allowed to hold to your convictions as a Christian because your convictions are not allowed because it's not neutral. There's a particular set of beliefs and values you're supposed to hold to in that institution and I think what's interesting here is as people have been talking about this online a lot, even many professing Christians have said, hey, she was in a secular institution, it's her fault, that sort of a thing.

What's interesting here is just the veneer of neutrality over the education institution is that technically speaking, with their veneer and their professed stipulated position, they're neutral. You're supposed to be able to have your own identity and beliefs within this neutral education system but it's not really neutral.

It's a secular humanist ideology, moral system, ethical system, value system and so you weren't walking in step as a Christian teaching art in the school and so now you've lost your job and you're being ultimately vilified by them because essentially you're holding to a historic Christian and biblical position on sexuality and gender.

Now that needs to be stated here I think very, very strongly is that what you are holding to is not something that's unusual in history. It's not something peculiar. You're holding to the historic orthodox perspective of human sexuality and so your view isn't new.

As a matter of fact, it was the view that actually established this country. It was the most common perspective in law and in communities in this country until of course the last generation. It's amplified against it but your perspective is historic.

Your perspective is orthodox. Your perspective is Christian through and through and that perspective is not a hatred for those who have these sexual pursuits or this and I'll say it as a Christian minister of the gospel, this confusion over gender and sexuality.

Our perspective isn't hatred towards those. It's a deep love and compassion and it's a desire to have compassion and love for those who are in that place but you have a perspective as a Christian who loves the Lord and loves God's word that God has defined in his word what is proper sexuality and proper perspective of gender and you hold to that perspective.

The Email, the Project, and the Principal’s Response

So the question I have to ask you, Anela, is this. The way that this is being told in the media, in the secular media, is that you were this Christian who came in and essentially coming in swinging an ax and you were taking people's heads off over these questions of gender and all the rest and I wanna ask you, is it true?

Did you do that?

Okay, so when I got my job and this is from a teacher perspective as well, when I signed my contract every year, I know that this is a big thing that kinda came up. When I signed my contract every year, you just sign the financial part.

So it's like, when are you getting paid and how much are you getting paid and this is your pay raise, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. That's what they tell you. Back in the day, and I'm sure I could look it up so I guess this is a little ignorant of me as to what I'm held to with gender pronouns and things like that.

I didn't know that I was being, that I was signing off on those things as well. When I signed my contract for the year, it's monetary. That's all you sign online. So that's, I wanted to put that out there first because like, I mean, that's what I've been signing the last three years.

You made a monetary covenant with this institution.

So that's what I've been signing for years is how much are you getting paid, dah, dah, dah. So it was just like sign your contract, move on kind of a thing. And so that's what I would look at every year.

That's it. But when, remind me again, what was your question?

I'm so sorry.

No, it's okay. So did you, when you, the way this is being described is you get the sense as you read this, propaganda, that you were in there as a Christian sort of like slinging Bibles at kids and telling them transgenderism is wrong and homosexuality is wrong and all this.

And you really were using your art position, your position as a teacher of art to really just essentially take people's heads off.

Right, okay.

In the area of worldview.

I remember where I was going now. So I've been signing that contract for years. So when I signed the contract this year and I got into my job, my heart had changed because of where I am in my faith now.

But I didn't really, how do I explain it? I didn't really expect or want to create a huge amount of strife with anybody. When I first came into school this year, my thought was, well, I'm gonna try again, new year, new me.

I'm gonna teach art. I'm just gonna teach art. That's what I thought I was gonna do.

Yes.

And I knew in the past, I mean, the climate was different. The class that I was teaching that the main struggle was in is an AP class. So it's a little bit more open concept. I don't get to decide the lesson planning as much.

They get to decide their concepts a little bit more. And when I was having these conversations with students or anything like that, it was in the previous six months of me being there when, I'm sure you remember the abortion bill in Texas and everything.

Students were talking about it everywhere.

Sure.

And so I felt convicted as a believer to give them another perspective and say, no, it's not okay. People in my classroom were saying like, oh, let's just cut Texas off. It doesn't matter, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

All of these vicious, intolerant things.

Intolerant.

Yeah, can you imagine? All of these things that were just like, let's just pretend they don't exist. Let's cut them off of our state, dah, dah, dah, dah, and all of these evil things. And I was just like, here's a different perspective.

And that's, of course, disagreement, unfortunately, is seen as like, you hate them then because you disagree with them. But I find it, as a Christian, you find it as, that's the greatest love you can show someone is to try to correct them to what the truth is.

So it's not.

So what you found.

It's not me trying to be evil.

No, no, loving and caring for another person's soul. You found in the supposedly neutral public education system that there is no real neutrality and that there's only one perspective allowed. And the perspective of scripture and historic Orthodox Christianity is not ultimately allowed in that context.

Absolutely.

Which is really what you found.

Yeah.

You're working at a Christian school now.

Yeah, praise God.

And I think maybe what we're all seeing here and learning here through this process is that education, it's not neutral. It's impossible to be neutral, even about art. And within an art context is because we're human beings.

We have these communities and these conversations and there's no way to avoid them. And what isn't allowed within the public education system is a Christian perspective on these things. Every other perspective is allowed.

Except the Christian perspective, ultimately. And so when trouble started with this for you this year, what happened?

So the very first week of school, I get to know everybody. So I guess it was the second week of school. I have my AP students, which is a college level class, as I was kind of saying. They have to make, I can't remember how many pieces.

It's like 12 if you're doing 3D and 24 if you're doing 2D or something like that. And what your job is, is to create an inquiry-based project. So you need to ask questions. You need to create an inquiry.

And so I know that the student that I struggled with and had this issue with, I've known her since eighth grade. I started working when she first got to the school. Well, it was a seventh grade school.

So I met her a long time ago, and I know the student extremely well. So I knew that she already had an, it's no secret, okay? So it's like, I already knew what her ideas were coming into it. So when I was promoting this, and it was new this year, that it's inquiry-based.

So you're supposed to be asking questions rather than coming with an answer, first and foremost. I was trying to push that a little bit more because I knew what was gonna happen a little bit. And so I was saying, make sure it's an inquiry, make sure it's an inquiry.

And they submitted all of their, basically their, oh goodness, I can't think of the word. What they wanted to do for their projects. Yeah, they put their projects and they sent them to me in documents.

And there was a lot of different ones. There's plenty of different ones. And there were some that were even something that I wouldn't have suggested them to do, either because it was too narrow, or it was because it was controversial to me.

There was a student that wanted to do one solely based on her identifying as a girl who wears a hijab. And I told her, maybe go towards your other idea because it's more broad. And I think it's a better idea for your artwork overall as a broad concept.

And so when I got Shayna's, who's the student, she had a whole bunch of questions that she had already answered herself, basically. It's not really inquiry-based. It's not like she's doing a research project on it.

She already knows her answers. She already is biased to the information. So I basically told her, I think your concept is too controversial for the classroom. And because, first and foremost, in a classroom environment, I don't think sexuality in any way belongs in the classroom.

I think you could possibly do that project outside of class. I don't see why you can't. So that's where I came at it from first. And then after that, I sent that email to her. Immediately, I was called into my guidance counselor's office, which caused me to talk to my principal, which caused this whole thing to occur.

Yeah.

So what did you send in the email? What'd you say?

Let me tell you. Okay. I said, due to the topic you have chosen for your piece, I cannot approve your concept. It is a controversial topic. And because I do not want to spark division in the classroom and because it is inappropriate for the classroom environment, I would like you to think of a different topic.

There are many different ways to take this project. So due to the content, you should either choose another avenue to create an AP project. Once you develop a new concept, feel free to email me. Thank you for your understanding.

Okay.

And what happened? You get pulled into the principal's office at that point.

Yeah.

So I actually got pulled into Mr. Vazosi, who is our guidance counselor there and talked to him about it. And he was like, this is going to be a problem. Basically, you should go talk to your principal.

And I talked to Rob Bickus and said, you need to discuss this with, because not only is it coming into my classroom environment, it's coming into me as a Christian woman at this point as well. Like, though it wasn't my first intentional thought, like, I can't accept this piece.

And for more reasons than simply saying, I don't like your piece, I don't like what you're saying, it's that in this classroom environment, you work with these students throughout a, however long the year is, you have to work with them on their concepts, work with them on their framing.

It's my project too, kind of. I'm not saying that I'm creating it.

You're the teacher.

But I guide them, yes. So it's not that they're doing this project on their own and I'm saying, okay, go sit in another classroom while you do this.

Right. It's a journey you're taking with them. And it's also a classroom environment you're trying to control as a teacher, as an educator.

Absolutely.

The LGBTQ Lifestyle, the Zero Grade, and Conscience

And so the East Valley Tribune says this. In an email, Chrome told the principal she does not condone the LGBTQ lifestyle and won't assist in creating artwork that glorifies what the report said.

Yeah.

True?

Yes.

Okay.

That is true.

Okay.

Because you're a Christian.

Yeah.

And it's supposed to be a neutral environment.

Supposed to be.

And we'd imagine that there's a level of tolerance to say, well, I understand your perspective on sexuality, so we'll respect your views on sexuality and try to find some way around this. What you did is you actually displayed that you're violating their perspective and their law of what they condone as appropriate sexuality.

So what we're really seeing here is that the public school system is not neutral like it pretends to be. It actually has a perspective, and Christianity and Orthodox Christian beliefs about human sexuality and gender are not allowed.

That's what needs to be highlighted here. Some might say, well, it's not right that you were saying as a Christian, I don't wanna see that. But in reality, in a neutral zone, everybody's perspective is supposed to be tolerated.

Absolutely.

The teacher should be allowed to have, if you're neutral, if you're a neutral educating zone, a teacher should be able to say, I don't actually agree with that perspective. I don't wanna have that. I'd imagine there'd be, we can think about the flip side, if there was an LGBTQ educator and a Christian student who said, no, this is the way I want my project.

I want it like this. And it says that sexuality is only whole and holy and good between a man and a woman. And the educator said, well, that's not my perspective. I really don't like that project. I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

It's flipped because you're a Christian with a Christian view of human sexuality. Now, this is what's interesting here. Cromm gave the students zero out of a possible 50 points for the project, telling the principal that a higher grade would violate her conscience.

Yes.

So a lot of people are mad at me for, and the truth is, is that I gave her a zero. I did. In this instance, this was after I had discussed with the principal and discussed with the student. Basically, I mean, without being too dramatic about it, I kind of like begged the student to pick something else because I personally didn't want to go through all this.

To be honest, I kind of wanted to avoid the whole thing. And I had the conversation with the student and I talked to the principal and the principal came back to me and said, you're going on with it. You need to do this.

So you're being forced to educate and to teach in the context of something that violates your conscience as a Christian.

Yeah, pretty bluntly.

On a fundamental aspect of morals, and that is human sexuality and gender issues.

And I told my principal as well that this is not something that I'm okay with and that I would be okay with resigning over it. Like, to that degree that I'm not playing around with if this is okay or not.

And he thought I was bluffing or something, I'm not really sure. But like, I took the day off after that and said, I just need a day to figure this out. And had everybody turn in all of their sketches on that Friday, which was that Friday.

And as I was looking at her sketches for her pieces, that was really, I mean, I already knew that I couldn't grade it, right? Because you're giving a grade to something that you don't believe in. You're doing the job that you said you weren't gonna do.

But when I looked at her pieces, it just made my heart ache because she took the imagery, and in her artistic piece, her image of herself was that of a lamb. So she used biblical imagery. And it just hurts me, because she used biblical imagery to portray the fact that she is an innocent as a transgender person.

So I saw it and I was just like, okay. And I couldn't give her a grade. Can't say, okay, well, you did the work, whatever, and just give it to her.

It's complicated, because you're going against your convictions. There was an issue not very long ago in Kentucky with a woman who worked for the state, who could not in good conscience approve a marriage certificate for a gay couple.

And she went to jail for it. And she went through a lot in the media for that, because she couldn't, as a Christian, approve of a particular sexual choice and lifestyle. And it was essentially played out in the media and all over the nation, this whole controversy about a Christian in that context.

And the questions are all surrounding, is a person required to violate their own conscience and their own convictions over human sexuality? Is a person required when they're working for a public school system or the state system, are they required to no longer be Christian in that context?

And what's interesting here is we're finding, I think, a very important principle is that neutrality is a myth. It's not possible. You're either going to worship God, the God of the Bible. You're either going to see his word as law, or you're going to worship some other God somewhere.

Either it's going to be the people collectively, we're God, we decide what's moral, we decide what is wholesome sexuality, or it's the God of Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Zoroaster, Confucius, or whatever the case may be.

But neutrality is a myth. And you found yourself there, unable to be a Christian with Christian convictions over human sexuality in this context. Essentially, what you were told, it sounds like you were told, no, you have to violate your conscience.

Yeah, and that's why I decided to give a zero. It doesn't make sense in context because it was a completion grade. Like, oh, you did it, you get the 50 points.

But...

But you also said as an educator that I don't want this piece.

I don't want this piece. Yeah, it was this point where I was like, I can't continue this, I need to put my foot down somewhere.

You were asked to yield, the student wasn't.

Right.

But you're the educator.

Right.

So you're the teacher and you had other reasons beyond mere conviction, Christian convictions over sexuality and these issues. You also had desires as an educator to hold the class in a particular way and to have the project done in a particular way.

And what this really comes down to is ultimately, you were asked as the educator, yield to the student.

Yes.

And you were asked on one level, yield to the student. It doesn't matter as the educator what you want done in your class. Yield to the student because their sexual desires and convictions are more important than yours and more important than your desire as an educator for what you want properly in the classroom.

And so what's being said here is that you have to yield as the educator and you have to yield and ultimately violate your conscience and the students and their sexual desires have to be supreme. That's what took place.

That's ultimately the answer of what took place here. So it says this, the transgender student asked to be taken out of Chrome's class according to the report.

I wasn't aware of that, but I guess so.

CUSD charged Chrome with violating a provision of her contract that prohibits a teacher from discriminating against any co-worker, student or parent based on gender or sexual orientation.

Right.

And your understanding is that every year when you're signing contract, it's a monetary contract.

Well, all that you see of it, I know that there's obviously a moral element of it because they gave me like a book of it when I was charged with all of these things. However, what I have only seen for the past three years is here's how much money you're making.

But ultimately what people need to hear here because people might be saying, well, if they have their standards, she should just yield it to that and that sort of thing. But what I think needs to be highlighted here is this is supposed to be a public school education system.

And it's supposed to be a place where there is tolerance, right? And what's being said here is ultimately your perspective is not to be tolerated here. What we're really saying is that you must tolerate all of our perspectives, but you won't be tolerated.

So in the end here, what this identifies is that Christianity is not allowed in the public school system.

That's pretty clear.

Ultimately, because what will not be tolerated is a Christian perspective. Because what's interesting here is when people say to you that the contract prohibits a teacher from discriminating against any coworker, student, or parent based on gender or sexual orientation is this, this is what's being said here, is that the teachers and the educational institution is allowed to discriminate against you for your perspective on sexual orientation.

So do you see the conflict there? That's what ultimately needs to be seen here is that somebody could say, yeah, but she wasn't being tolerant. When in reality, it's impossible because there's no neutrality, you're not being tolerated.

What's true here is that the Christian worldview and Christian view on sexuality is not tolerated in the public school system. And that's why you lost your job. That's really why. So she was given until September 26 to request a hearing to contest the district's allegations before termination was considered, but she never sought one.

Yes, I didn't seek one because I thought it was a losing battle. To be honest though, from viewing everything, I don't want my job there. I don't want it there. So it would be weird to contest a job that you don't want.

That's true. And district reports appear to show the governing board has not tried to terminate a teacher since 2014 in that case, and then with the employee resigning this is in the light of it appears to be relatively rare for CUSD to fire a teacher in the middle of a school year.

The district report outlined other allegations of students feeling uncomfortable in Krom's class. One student told administrators Krom questioned their pro-choice beliefs regarding abortion, gave the student a Bible and encouraged the student to rethink their morals.

Shame on you. First, I read that and I say, hey, praise God. How about we all tolerate one another's beliefs in this context? What's being said here is the students are allowed to have conversations supporting abortion.

That perspective is tolerated, but not the perspective of a Christian who wants to say, well, why don't you consider this? Tell us about this incident.

Okay, so what occurred in my classroom, and this was at the end of last year when I was feeling extremely convicted about my faith and really coming into growth as a Christian and really trying to remain consistent in my life a little bit.

This was when the Texas abortion thing was going on and everyone at my school was talking and saying all of these evil things, talking about abortion, being okay within, da-da-da-da-da. One of my tables in the front of my classroom was having a conversation pretty bluntly about how abortion is pretty cool.

And I just kept hearing it and kept hearing it and I was just like, and my heart is just hurting. So what I.

It's supposed to be a neutral zone.

It's supposed to be a neutral zone and.

So isn't everyone allowed to give their perspective?

Yeah, ideally it would be great.

If there was such a thing as neutrality.

For neutrality to be a thing. However, and at the time I thought it was extremely well-received. There was conversation back and forth. Students were talking with me. I was hearing their side. It was a conversation that I thought was a conversation that was productive and saying, if I was to have that kind of a conversation in my classroom, I would say, from my Christian perspective, this is what the belief is.

So that's how the conversation went.

Yeah, so I wouldn't say like, I believe this, this, and this, and it wasn't about me and my belief system. I was just putting the Christian belief system.

We're supposed to be all in education.

Out there.

We're all tolerating from a Christian perspective and from this perspective, right? I mean, you would think in a neutral education system that would be understood.

But at the end of the day, I did put my, you know, the Christian belief system into this environment, yes. And I said.

There's not supposed to be any discrimination so that's fine.

Right, right.

So at the end of the day, yeah. I said my beliefs in the classroom, which as a leader, I shouldn't have done, supposedly.

You know?

Except if you were agreeing with them on abortion,.

I don't think it would be a problem.

Right, I don't think it would have been an issue at all. And there were, you know, places where I said, maybe I even said it's murder because it is. That's the truth of the fact, scientifically. You know, you can't skirt around the truth.

You're a human being.

So, human being.

You're taking the life of a human being, yes.

And so all of these high schoolers, no experience talking about getting, it was insane. So basically, I just said, this is the view on it. This is what I think. I never handed her a Bible. I may have said, you know, this is the gospel.

That's true. Like, I have, in that past, in that end six months of my job, I was giving the gospel to students because it hurt me to see the darkness in my classroom every single day and no one seeing a way out.

At our school, also, our suicide slash self-harm rate is insane. So crazy that on the back of our IDs, it has a suicide hotline. Like, it's so bad. And there's no, no one sees what the actual out is.

So, when you would say, come into this neutral environment and say, look, there is an answer. There is a truth. I'm not saying you're gonna read the Bible in my classroom and going through Psalms and stuff.

But I'm saying, if you, you just see what you do with it. You know, basically, this is the gospel. This is what it is. That's what I did in my classroom for those six months.

Or less than that.

Abortion, the Gospel, and the Myth of a Neutral Classroom

And in a situation where there's a neutral environment like this and there's supposed to be toleration for everyone's beliefs and no discrimination, you shouldn't have been discriminated against.

Ideally. Yeah, technically.

In theory. So, one of the other things that's alleged is the same student alleged that shortly after telling Krom that they were agnostic or an atheist, the teacher lowered their grade on an assignment without explanation.

Right. Right.

That is a bold-faced lie.

And I,.

I know that as a teacher in general, I would never do such a thing. Not due to any, I mean, I, if that was the case, I would be doing that for everybody or whatever. Because I was not in a secular school.

Your Christian convictions in the area of integrity are the same type of convictions and commitments in the area of sexuality.

Absolutely.

And your Christian convictions over integrity wouldn't allow you to do such a thing.

Right.

I try to be consistent in my views.

Because that's the Christian perspective.

That's the Christian perspective, yeah. That's what I'm held to.

We'd love it if there was some tolerance for that perspective. The classroom environment Krom described on the Arizona College Prep's website sounds starkly different from the one depicted in the district's report.

Right.

She presented herself as an instructor who welcomes students to be creative and expressive. Quote, if you have artistic ideas that you would like to create other than the project that we are doing, we can discuss it, Krom wrote on the school's website.

I encourage conversation and respectful discussion. The constitutional rights guaranteed under the First Amendment can often come into conflict in a public school setting. It instructs the government not to establish one religion, yet the First Amendment still entitles citizens to freely express themselves.