The Spiritual Abuse of Ravi Zacharias

Welcome to the Wrap Report with your host, Andrew Rappaport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application.

This is a ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian Podcast Community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

Well welcome to another edition of the Wrap Report. I'm your host, Andrew Rappaport. This is a podcast put together by Striving for Eternity.

Just check out everything we do at strivingforeternity .org. We are on the Christian Podcast Community.

If you want to see the 40, well 39 other podcasts that are currently out there, you can go to christianpodcastcommunity .org.

I'm joined by my friend in sunny Florida because I can see it's probably warmer there than here.

You have no snow outside. It's Mr. Bud. Greetings. Yes. Wonderful day.

I'm looking out the window, blue skies, a very frigid 52 degrees.

So yeah, I will survive perseverance. You know, just tell me one thing.

What's the temperature? 5 -2. 5 -2. 52 degrees.

That's actually cold for you, huh? Oh, this is, yeah. I'll have a parka. I got to run down to the church later.

Yeah. So, this is where it was seven degrees. They're not used to that there.

Yeah. I feel for those folks. I mean, I really do. And there's some, there's some tragic things happening, but, but it is, it is warmer here than Texas, which is strange, but I have snow outside.

I got like two foot of snow. So when is summer?

Well, it may be tomorrow. I think it's looking good. I'm usually wishing for spring around September.

Around, yeah, yeah. So let's, before we get started with today's show, and like I said online,

I think, and if you want to find me online, I'm on both Parler and on Gab at Andrew Rappaport.

That's where you can find me. So go follow me there and you can find out what goes on.

But I did share that we're going to be talking about Ravi Zacharias today. And I think, Bud, that the way that you and I are looking to approach it,

I think this is going to be a little different than the way I've seen everyone else approaching it. Everyone else seems to want to focus on whether or not

Ravi Zacharias is in hell right now. Maybe we'll address that because that seems to be the common question, but that's not where we want to go on this show.

So before that, though, we do have some housekeeping to do because we have a book giveaway.

We had on the previous, well, the previous, previous, because I kind of, last previous was a really short episode.

I guess I should give an update on that, huh? Okay, let me give an update. So I'll do housekeeping before the housekeeping.

Does that sound fair, Bud? You've already lost me, so go ahead. I'll nod in agreement.

Yeah, I am doing, health -wise, I am doing better. My blood pressure has come down to normal, but I've also been running about three to seven miles a day.

I've been doing two runs a day, lifting, so that helped with bringing down the weight as well, since I've been seriously watching my diet, no sodium at all, actually very little of anything, except for the fact,

Bud, I don't know if you saw this on Apologetics Live, we had our 100th anniversary. Congratulations. Yeah.

Thank you. We had 100 episodes, and yeah, Mr. Matt Slick decided to do something to make it memorable, and I wasn't really happy with him about this, but for 10 years,

Matt Slick has been attempting to buy, well, even to buy himself a meal. He failed whenever we were together, but he attempted, he would always attempt to buy me a meal, and he would fail at every,

I mean, every attempt. This is over, like, 10 years, you know, of trying hard.

He tried many different things and failed at all of them. In the middle of the show, about 40 minutes into the show, my doorbell rang, and I explained to the woman, there's no one named

Matthew here, you got the wrong address, and shut the door and said, you know, I'm on a call, and ran back. Doorbell rang again, and I see,

I could see Matt in the camera on a phone, you know, he's got his phone to his ear, and he's on mute, and my doorbell rings again.

And I hear her talking to none other than Matt Slick, and he's like, just put him on the phone.

He's saying, this has been a long battle, I've been trying to buy him a meal, and he doesn't let me, just leave it, like, you've got to leave it there, and there's

Matt doing a door dash. He door dashed me with a lot of sushi. Oh, wow.

After 10 years, he won, he actually got one meal off of, like,

I probably have like dozens and dozens on him. But yes, so it was hilarious, because he knew that, he knew what was going on, no one else in the show knew what was going on, until I came back with a bag, and he interrupted

Jason Lyle to boast, proudly boast, that he got me.

And that whether his, my wife accepted the bag from the door dash person or not, he bought me a meal.

And my wife doesn't eat sushi, and he knows that. I was stuck.

Matt won, I admit it. So, yeah. But other than that,

I've been eating very, very little. That's probably the only sodium that I had in two weeks. Been doing much better.

People have been telling me they can hear, just, I've removed some of the stress in my life. There's some things that, not ready to share yet, but things that I've let go of, and that have really reduced the stress, which was the indicator, or the factor.

I want to say it's the stressor, but that's kind of the stress being the stressor. I'm glad to hear that, because actually,

I'm back. So, obviously, I wasn't one of the things you eliminated to address your stress issues.

Because we'd have to cut the broadcast, and I'd need to go repent if I thought that that might have remotely been.

You were the stressor. No, actually, I think the stressor is that I'm going to be back in your area, and your pastor hasn't asked me to speak yet.

Maybe it's because I didn't let him know I'm back in your area. I'll have to talk to him about that. Remind me, because I know he's listening.

He's listening to know, because he wants to know if the title of this is going to be, Ravi Zacharias is in Hell. He wanted that as the title.

Isn't that what he wanted? Yeah. I think so. Maybe that, but different.

He wanted anything but that, right? Yeah. No. So, two episodes ago, we had Ray Rhodes, a friend of mine, who had written the book,

You're Still Heaven, which is a love story about Susie Spurgeon. My plan was to announce, you know, it's a love story.

I wanted to announce it on the episode that dropped on Valentine's Day, but God had other plans. So, but let me give the reviews to enter to get the one of the three that were given away.

All you had to do is write a review. However, there was a second thing. You had to email me so that I know who you are and your address so that we could send it to you.

So, two of the people, I have no idea who you are. But, Dollbasket, I don't know who

Dollbasket is. So, Dollbasket, please, if you're hearing this, email me your address at info at striving for eternity .org.

Info at striving for eternity .org so that you can get your, you know, your copy of the book.

And I didn't say you had to give me a five -star review, but we're glad that you gave us a five -star review. So, five stars.

Thank you. A thank you review. I am so grateful for Striving for Eternity podcast and for all your hard work that you do,

Andrew, to make sure truth is being shared. Thank you for taking the time to rest and reevaluate your work so that you will improve your health.

God bless all your hard work and pray that he gives you wisdom and strength.

So, we thank you for that. And I guess the wisdom was making sure Bud was back. So, it's good. That was wise. The second person who

I do not know who they are. So, again, email me your address for Purple Puppet Master.

Purple Puppet Master, we need your address. Email it to info at striving for eternity .org.

Five -star review. Factual, faithful, fun. That was their heading.

Andrew never fails to show. Sorry. Andrew never fails to share biblical and gospel truth effectively and entertainingly.

The rap report has encouraged, inspired, and challenged me at times filling me with laughter and riddling me with conviction.

In a world full of fluff, it is refreshing to become, quote, wrapped up, unquote, in the solid theology of this podcast.

There's a little pun in there too. Wow. The last review in this one is they actually left a review.

I mentioned this on Apologetics Live. And so, they left the review there on Apologetics Live. So, we're going to count it.

But Deadpool Wilson, who has given reviews on the rap report.

So, maybe that's why this person did it on this one because I don't think he could do two. But I now know who

Deadpool Wilson is, I'm guessing, because the person said they sent the review. They just didn't say their name.

So, I'm assuming it's the same since this was the newest review on Apologetics Live, my other show, which

I mentioned earlier. Five -star review. Spot on podcast. I just came across this podcast and have to say it is spot on.

I do have two questions. And so, they have some questions for us regarding when

Justin was on with Paula White and Kenneth Copeland. And so, I'm going to save those questions for Apologetics Live.

So, you'll have to listen there to get those questions. But they were very appreciative of the podcast there.

So, those are the three reviews that get a copy of yours till heaven. I don't know, bud, if this episode is going to be one that will be referred to as entertaining as much, unfortunately.

So, let me start with scripture. We're going to be talking today about Ravi Zacharias. There has been a lot of different and mixed responses that we've seen with people responding to Ravi Zacharias.

I want to start with scripture and then I'm going to quote a friend of mine. But I want to start with this.

As we think about Ravi, there have been a lot of different responses that I have seen, a lot of different… a lot of…

Well, I've seen gloating. Let me just put it right out there. I've seen people who are glad they didn't like Ravi's ministry.

They didn't like his style, whatever it is. There's a lot of people that seem like they're happy to report what's going on.

Some of it is just discernment bloggers who just love any dirt they can find on anyone.

And so, I think they're just happy that they have someone that they can expose.

And so, to that, I want to address first, because I want us to understand how we should be addressing this.

Let me take this from Philippians 3. And I'm going to start in verse 17.

And we're going to just talk through this a little bit before we get into the issue. Brethren, join me in following my example.

Now, let me just stop there. We're going to kind of chalk talk the scriptures here, give you a little commentary. But what is

Paul saying? He wants to provide an example. Well, that's an example to you and I as well.

So, when it comes to the Ravi Zacharias situation, I think this is going to apply. Brethren, join me in following my example.

And observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. So, in other words, follow

Paul and others who have the lifestyle, the pattern that is that of Christ.

Verse 18. For many walk of whom

I have told you and tell you now, even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose

God is their appetite, whose glory is their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we eagerly wait for our

Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of his glory by the exertion of the power of he has, even to subject all things to himself.

So, Paul's making a distinction here between the groups of people, those who follow Christ and those who do not.

Those whose destruction, whose end is destruction, whose God is their appetite, whose glory is their shame, who set their mind on earthly things.

I'm going to make the case throughout this episode that that is Ravi Zacharias. We're going to see if you haven't seen the issues dealing with Ravi, then this will be an eye -opening thing for you.

But we are going to see throughout that his appetite, that his God was his appetite, that his glory now, even in his death, is his shame, that his mind was set on earthly things.

And so, yes, Paul would say that his end is destruction. But there's a key thing I want you to notice in verse 18.

Do not miss this, because many who say they do discernment, they miss this essential when it comes to discernment.

How does Paul say this? For many walk with whom I've told you, and now tell you, even weeping that they are enemies of the cross of Christ.

This episode brings us absolutely no joy to have to do.

And any discernment blogger that finds joy or rejoices in doing an episode about the issues going on with Ravi Zacharias, shame on you.

Repent, because you fit into verse 19 then.

If your appetite is that you love to rejoice in destroying other Christians, whether Ravi was one or not, or you love those that profess to be

Christians, if you rejoice in exposing others, and you're not weeping over them,

I'll let the cat out of the bag. You never start with your conclusion, but I will. I find it hard to believe that Ravi Zacharias was a

Christian. I will explain that throughout. If Ravi Zacharias, if I'm right, and there wasn't fruit in his life, if he is in hell, that should grieve us, not cause us to rejoice.

We should be weeping. And I'll tell you right now, I have not been enjoying the prep for this show.

No. This has been very grieving to have to deal with. No, there's a whole population of people affected by him and his ministry that we should be praying for that have been victimized, that have been abused spiritually and physically.

It's just a path of destruction as a result of what I've read through all of this resource material.

It's sad. It's sad. It's sad for those people, but it's sad because it's also a reflection from the world on looking at the church, and this tarnishes the name of Christ, and it tarnishes his church.

It's sad. It is. And we've seen, unfortunately, many people who have been trying to, they've said good things about Ravi, and then when this has come out, they've reevaluated him.

But, you know, I saw this with someone I know personally, and he made it public, so I'm going to read what he said publicly.

And this is from Ray Comfort, and he put this with a video. He said this, speaking of Ravi, his fall was painful because his name was synonymous with integrity.

He was the gentleman's gentleman, the proud mountain of intellectualism, to which we pointed as evidence that Christianity isn't just for the fool on a hill.

Yet at the same time, his eloquence concerned me. I often express that concern in self -deprecation, in its self -deprecating way, by saying that I listened to him in awe, but would come away not having a clue what he had just said.

I even addressed my concern in Fear and Trembling in one of my books, unquote.

No, that is true. That is Ray. I mean, if you know Ray Comfort, if he's uncomfortable, he does it in a self -deprecating way.

That's how he tends to express himself. He really cares about people, and, you know, he's just, he's a very gracious man.

I think that he hit on something, though. It was Ravi's eloquence, his appearance of integrity that makes this so shocking to so many people.

For those that don't know, it has been exposed, and I know that when I mentioned this several months ago on social media, many people were very upset with me for daring to believe that Ravi Zacharias could have engaged in sexual activity outside of the marriage, sexual abuse with many women.

And so that has now been confirmed. And you say, well, that's just some lawyer that's saying it.

Well, the lawyers have over 200 images that came from Ravi Zacharias' devices of women that he would ask them to send him naked pictures of themselves, and he would send them naked pictures of himself.

And so you end up seeing that there is physical evidence. There are text messages and emails, and all of that is now known.

But this is an issue, and if you look at the title of this episode, I'm titling this, and I'm saying that this is the spiritual abuse of Ravi Zacharias.

And why is it spiritual abuse? This is a thing that I think for many people, it's hard for them to understand.

That someone who they looked up to, someone that they valued his intellect, he definitely was an intelligent person.

However, there was also some spiritual abuse that went on.

Was there physical and sexual abuse? Yes. We will address on Apologetics Live this

Thursday night. Dr. Silvestro, Justin, and I, maybe Bud will stay up late and pop in.

We'll see. Got to do special things to get him to pop in. 100th anniversary episode wasn't enough for Bud.

He only comes in for the really special stuff. No, but I do need to get Matt my address in case he wants to send dinner or something.

Yes. There were many people offering Matt their addresses during the live show.

But here's the thing. On Thursday, what I'm going to address with them, I want to address some of the grooming that went on, some of the failure of the board of directors of RZIM, some of the ways that he was able to get away with what he did and ways of identifying it.

I want to deal with some of that as well here. But what I want to start with in this is to focus on one thing to start, and that is not on the sexual nature of his sin, but go back earlier.

Earlier, we end up having something that we see started early on in his ministry.

Very early on, his ministry started with falsehoods.

And it was exposed, but because he had built a reputation, because he was so intellectual and eloquent, people didn't want to criticize him.

I think because of those three things, his platform, his eloquence, his intellectualism. And one of the things he started doing was saying that he had a doctorate from a university and that he taught at that university.

And this is many years ago that I saw an atheist arguing this. I saw the argument that was made on his website to explain it, and it seemed reasonable until, and this goes back,

I want to say, I think it was like 2013, 14 even, that I remember getting involved in this and seeing it.

And I think that's when the university itself put out a statement saying he never attended a class, that he was never employed and never attended a class there.

And so that's the thing. And for those Patreons who are watching, I'll share.

Bud, you made it easy for me to get a degree. Oh, yeah, man.

Here you go. You wrote one up there, and here's one you sent me. It's Universal Life Church Seminary, and you wrote my name,

Dr. Divinity. That's easy to do, huh? Yeah, yeah. I like the one that you have there in your office there better.

You overwrote your name here and scribbled mine in. But it actually, unfortunately, is easy to do that.

I knew of a church in New Jersey where they were trying to give credentials to their pastor, and they were creating a fake doctorate for him.

That's a problem. You think that's a problem?

It is. And it starts here, though, Bud. It starts with small things. I remember reading a book that was trying to address the

Enron situation, if you remember that, just several years ago, where the guy embezzled all this money from the company. It's interesting because he had said he learned it from Bill Clinton, the president.

But I guess that wasn't interesting. He learned the technique of how he embezzled from the company, from what he learned from what

Bill Clinton was doing with the economy. But I guess if you own a corporation or if you run a corporation, it's bad.

If you are president of the country, it's OK if you're a Democrat. So here's the thing that you end up seeing, though.

This book explained that no one wakes up and says, I'm going to embezzle from the company. It always starts in smaller things.

It starts with cheating on SATs to get better scores so you get into a better university, cheating your way through university so you get that degree, so that you can claim that you got a degree from a good university with a high

GPA. All the little cheating. And then it's the little bit of stealing until you get to embezzling large amounts of money.

Well, Ravi Zacharias started by lying about his credentials. The only degree that we know of that he actually earned that we could find is a bachelor's degree, a four -year bachelor's degree.

The other degrees he had that he claimed were honorary degrees and not earned.

Now, if you have an honorary doctorate, can you claim that you're a doctor? Well, yes, you can.

That is something. So there's some atheists who say that he shouldn't be called doctor. Now, I know that many of those places,

I think, are now removing those doctorates because a lot of them gave it to him for integrity.

And, well, they're realizing he lacked some of that. But I want to start off by saying that this starts off with small things.

But the thing I want to focus in on, I want to get to some of the issues that happened with Ravi.

So we're going to have a lot of links in the show notes here for you to look at. So you can check for yourself, including one of the things

I want you to look at is the report of independent investigation into sexual misconduct of Ravi Zacharias.

I encourage you to look at that. The other thing we're going to focus on is the statement put out by Ravi Zacharias International Ministries.

They were responding to this. There's an article. They put out the board of directors there have an open letter from the

International Board of Directors of RZIM on the investigation of Ravi Zacharias.

I'll also be referring to an article that was in Christianity Today. Ravi Zacharias hid hundreds of pictures of women abuse during massages and a rape allegation.

And so we want to deal with some of that today. Now, I will admit there's a lot here in this independent investigation.

Bud, you know, we talked about this. There's a lot in here we cannot discuss as Christians.

It literally is just too inappropriate. It seems that he had back issues and needed massaging.

One of the things, so some people would say that having a massage, a man having a massage by a woman is inappropriate.

OK, I would say that that is a gray area. That's an area where there could be the look of impropriety.

We look at men like Jeffrey Epstein and what he was doing. These people who say they need a massage every day or several times a day,

I think that becomes just an indicator that maybe there's something wrong going on.

There are, as I've tried to do some asking of questions and things, it seems that within the arena,

I guess, of massages, there are people who go get a massage fully naked and those who are at least wearing something.

And obviously for massages, they have to work on massaging. Most people have at least their, you know, their shirt off and shorts.

So what you see with Robbie is he went completely naked. Why is that an issue?

From what I have been told, I don't have firsthand experience with this, but from what I'm told, that is an indicator to some massage therapists that you want more than just a massage.

So can a Christian get a massage? Well, I would say yes, but make sure you at least have shorts or something else on.

So, but it seemed that Robbie did more than just that. He would, while being massaged, he would pull the cover off.

At least that's what the report said, that the massage therapist would cover the person and he would pull it off so that they could see everything.

They would cover it back up. He would be being completely uncovered, touching himself in areas and exposing himself to women.

He would be touching them, things like that. He would do other things that I cannot describe on the show.

All in front of women that are not his wife. Now, I talked to one of my friends and he had said that what he thinks, the way they would explain this away was that this is just part of Indian culture.

Indian culture would have multiple wives. And we're going to get to that in a quote that is from these articles.

There are some massage therapists that said that it was a normal massage, but not, unfortunately, all of them.

Now, there's some things we're going to get to with how these people ended up here in America, because some of them were not from America.

But, Bud, you had a quote that you thought interesting in this article with the fact of his international travel.

Now, Ravi Zacharias Ministries, part of the integrity that people saw with him, is that they had strict policies that he had put in place.

And as one of these articles said, because he put them in place, he also knew the ways around them. But could you read those two paragraphs that you had that you thought was of interest?

Yeah, because it was not merely, I'm going to leave the office and go down to a massage parlor that I own.

This revealed that when he would travel, he had a personal masseuse travel with him.

So this comes from the Miller and Martin Independent Investigation, which was done at the request of the

RZM Ministries. But here it is, quote, Mr. Zacharias spent much of the year on the road and typically had at least one male

RZM staff member travel with him. These travel assistants provided the appearance of accountability.

So Mr. Zacharias could say he did not travel alone and was never alone with a woman.

Indeed, all of the travel assistants we interviewed said that they never observed anything improper.

Most of them were aware, however, that Mr. Zacharias had a massage therapist who was often with him to provide treatments during his travels.

Several RZM staff reported to us that they were concerned about Mr. Zacharias traveling with a personal masseuse, not because they feared actual impropriety, but because they feared the appearance of impropriety.

A high level RZM staff member expressed concerns to Mr. Zacharias about it and encouraged him to stop traveling with her.

In response, Mr. Zacharias grew angry and barely spoke to the staff member for a long period of time.

He was effectively, quote, sent to Siberia, unquote. As another staff member recalled, their relationship never fully recovered.

Now, there's several things I find of interest here. First off, so he's traveling with another male companion so that it looks like he's not traveling alone, things like that.

But yet he has a female masseuse. The report also mentioned the fact that even when he didn't travel with a female masseuse, that he would get massages at the hotel room in his room.

Yeah. Obviously alone. So the fact that he traveled with a male doesn't mean he didn't make other opportunities available, that he would be alone with a female masseuse.

Now, there's another thing in that that I also want to pick up because this is part of where you go down this road.

Ravi Zacharias traveled most of the year. And right there's the problem.

This was a change we made at Striving for Eternity. I used to be out on the road 48 to 50 weeks a year traveling, speaking at churches.

I had no, no, no accountability in a local church. Why? Because I wasn't part of one.

Oh, yeah, I showed up for Resurrection Sunday and Christmas, the two days no one has you come and speak at their church.

And that was really, that was about it. Every other week, I was out at someone else's church.

So did I really get to know the people? No, I had the accountability of my board of directors, but not the accountability that's necessary.

And so we made a decision very early on. And I think it was the second year of ministry that we made a change as I got to know other people who do what

I do traveling and speaking. And I saw them and realized they had no church accountability.

And I watched their life and I'd see these guys, people you know, people whose names you would know, people like Ravi Zacharias, who you see failure because their pride got the best of them because they don't have anyone in their church telling them no.

They have no one on their board telling them no. As you saw in this quote, you have someone that says no and he's put to Siberia.

So this is the thing that's necessary. We ended up making a decision at Striving for Eternity. I am to be in my local church half of the year, whether it's two weekends out of a month or what, it doesn't matter.

But I am not allowed to travel for more than half the year. And that's why sometimes we have to say no to people, even though like, well,

I don't see it on your calendar. That is, but we filled up because my board of directors and it was by my request, put a requirement that restricts me and every speaker at Striving for Eternity to speak no more than half of a year.

And it can't be six months on and six months off, but still the point being, we have to be part of a local church.

One of the other things we did at Striving for Eternity is you actually can't get on the board of Striving for Eternity without displaying a willingness to correct even me.

We do not want anyone on the board that's not willing to correct anyone else if they see something that is concerning.

That's two things we did early on. Obviously, Ravi Zacharias did not. He puts up the appearance of integrity without the real measures to make sure it's in place.

In fact, we at Striving for Eternity, and we'll address this in more detail on Thursday, but we had a young lady who worked for us and would travel to the different events with us so that she would be there to run the book table and things like that.

She's out of New York, I'm out of New Jersey. We would fly out of New York. A lot of times, we thought at first, most convenient, book the tickets together so we're on the same flights, easier for people to pick us up.

We changed that. Not only we wouldn't fly on the same flights, the board decided, no, don't even land at the same time.

We're not even taking off or landing, so we're not in the airport alone even together.

That was a policy that ended up changing as well. Why? Just to protect from even a possibility.

Now, granted, the young woman was more like a daughter, not quite old enough to be her father, but close enough.

But the issue is this is where Ravi falls short. He allowed for opportunities by bringing these women with him.

It looks like there's integrity, but what you see is he actually made a way to feed his appetite.

He made a way, he made the desires of his heart, he's satisfied.

Now, here's what I want to get to, but actually I should let you, anything else you want to address with any of that?

No, no, I mean, I think you've made the point. You can have the appearance of integrity, but in this case from the report, it shows that even when he was confronted, and we don't know the tone of that confrontation, but he grew angry.

I mean, that's what the report says. Well, that doesn't speak to integrity, that speaks to deceit and concealment.

We don't like our sin confronted, but that's the point of discipline in the church, because you want to uncover your sin, you want to repent of sin, and you want to pursue holiness and righteousness.

If you've created an environment in which that can't happen, what's your motive?

Well, and so that's part of the spiritual abuse that I want to get to. I was going to get to it later, but you brought it up now, so let's talk about it.

Because here's the thing that you end up seeing. I want this to be broader than just Ravi Zacharias.

There are many people, I've talked to many people throughout a week in churches where there's spiritual abuse.

One of the indicators of spiritual abuse is when you go to a pastor or somebody and you correct them, you try to correct them, especially if you bring scripture, and they get angry.

They start to do damage control. They start to attack you and your character. That is the evidence of someone that is doing spiritual abuse.

That's an evidence of pride in someone. When they have to protect themselves, protect their reputation, protect their image.

And you're going to see that in the next quote I'm going to give you, how Ravi did that.

But there's many who do this, where their reputation, their image is far more important than your correction.

That's not biblical. Paul in Acts commended the Bereans for checking what he said against scripture.

He said that's something to be commended, not something to be abused.

One of the things you see as far as the spiritual abuse of Ravi Zacharias here is that when corrected, he didn't receive it.

There seems to be reports from people who worked at the ministry that said they were warned not to go against the

Zacharias family. I think, Bud, you may have, I don't know if you… Yeah, I'm flipping through in this.

While you get there, I'll set it up. Just let me know when you get there. What you see is, you'll see in this, basically, the environment that they will set up so that nobody can hurt the platform.

Notice what this is all going to be about. It's not about God and His glory. It is about the platform they're building, the money they're bringing in.

Ultimately, they're going to say it's about the souls. But if you really cared about people's souls, you would not be having a ministry where you're using it to satisfy your own appetites and desires.

One of the things that we ended up seeing through this report is that Ravi Zacharias opened two spas, massage parlors.

In those massage parlors, we ended up seeing that he would bring in people from other countries.

He would find these masseuses in Bangladesh or wherever that he went to other countries.

He'd bring them over to America, and they would work in a massage parlor. Now, he opened a massage parlor that was run by his own daughter,

Naomi. His daughter is the manager, the director. He's the owner or co -owner.

Here you have, from what we see, four women who have come into this country to work in this massage parlor.

They're working there. Do you think that's an environment where they can say, hey, this is what the owner slash father of the director is doing?

When they're there on a visa provided by them, being funded by him, some of the women, they were paid not only a salary, but they were financially provided for elsewhere.

There's some in foreign countries where he would go too often. I think it was

Bangkok where he has an apartment with his masseuse. He owns it. Sorry, he doesn't.

The ministry. This was all done under RZIM, under humanitarianism. Under humanitarianism, they provided these women with housing, with salaries.

What were they doing? Well, we end up seeing that what they were doing was after they ended up getting these financial benefits, then sex was required of them.

For some of the women that would be here in the States, were they in an environment where they can say anything? It seems not.

But even within RZIM, there's not that. But you have that. Yes, I do.

What this comes from is a letter. It's marked confidential, but it has been publicly released from February the 6th to the chairman of the

RZIM board of directors by Ruth Malhotra, who apparently was the manager or director of public relations for RZIM.

I don't know whether that's an active status now, but at the time and previously, it had been.

So this is a 28, 30 page letter that she has written, very revealing about the internal mechanisms and things going on within the ministry.

But here's a particular point that is under a section which she has titled Nepotism and Fear of Family Retaliation.

She writes, and this is a quote. One element of the toxic culture at RZIM that I believe has contributed to this crisis has been the manner in which the

Zacharias family insists upon unquestioning loyalty and being viewed as above reproach.

In itself, this is an unhealthy posture for the management of any organization.

Within my first month at RZIM during my onboarding in 2013,

I was warned by my then manager, quote, whatever you do, don't cross the Zacharias family, unquote.

I was told that every PR proposal I made or media interview I suggested for Ravi would be viewed through the lens of how this impacts the

Zacharias family bottom line. And that certain family members working at the ministry were particularly concerned about provision.

It quickly became evident to me that there was not just an unhealthy adoration for Ravi, but also a focus on self -preservation, and we were all expected to play along.

And this is actually the first of the signs of a spiritual abuse. The other one

I mentioned already, the pride of lashing out and doing damage control when someone corrects you, that's second.

This one's actually the first, is the idea of protecting the image. When someone's image becomes more important than truth, when someone is unwilling to be corrected, when someone surrounds themselves around people who will do whatever they say must be done.

You'll see it, they're controlling in information. Now, there's a reason they have to be controlling in information.

They're controlling in information because they're trying to protect their image. Yeah, that image ties directly to revenue.

Correct. And so this becomes the thing of, we have to control what's said.

I've seen this countless times in churches, where you have leaderships that are going to sit there and say, well, there's bad news, we know of it, but we're going to think that only us know about it.

It's not known in the congregation, and so what do they do? They will hide that information. This is what

Ravi Zacharias Ministries did when the first case came out of Laurie Ann Thompson.

They just said they believed Ravi, and he had a plausible excuse, and they believed him and thought she was just looking to sue him for money, and they controlled the narrative.

And because of his stature, because of his fame, because of who he was, everybody believed him, and that is the problem.

Well, not only that, certainly the board replied with a vigorous defense of Ravi, but the denomination of which he was licensed and ordained, they also in 2018 came out when this event occurred.

They claim they completed a thorough inquiry of those accusations, and while it's not appropriate to publicly discuss the nuances, the available evidence does not provide a basis for formal discipline.

So you've got his denomination that licensed and ordained him that also supported the narrative that he and the board were promoting.

They did a thorough investigation without evidence, right? They didn't have his pictures and his text messages and things like that.

They had the word of one woman against the word of a guy who they believed had integrity, and they were just looking at the words.

Unfortunately, there's times you have to go beyond words, but you end up seeing what he was doing as many spiritual predators do.

See, he is a sexual predator, yes, but we often don't think about the fact that there are spiritual predators, and he is that as well as we're going to see in the next quote.

But the spiritual predators, what they do is they will be spotted because they want to control the language.

They want to control the information. They want to control what is being said about them and who says it.

They want to control everything, and the reason they do that is because their image is what becomes paramount.

You're seeing this even within the word of faith movement where all these guys who are like, Trump is going to be president.

Oh, Trump isn't president, and they're all scrambling to try to protect their image. Well, what they should do is repent, say,

I'm a false prophet. Let me get out of ministry. That's what they should do, but people that are spiritual predators don't do that, and this is the thing.

There are people who they will think that because someone's a pastor, because someone's a celebrity pastor, someone's a world -renowned speaker, that somehow they're beyond reproach, and you're hearing that in that quote that Bud gave.

The ultimate thing is to make sure that their reputation is kept clean, and yet you end up seeing that when it comes to spiritual well -being, we don't look for the best.

Bud, when you hire someone for your house, do you go for the best plumber, or do you just take anyone that's mediocre?

Yeah, I go for the best I can afford and making sure that they also have insurance in case somebody gets hurt.

You're going to make a decision based on skill and what you're hoping gets accomplished.

If you had a problem with your plumbing, and I just happened to be at the house, would you want me doing the work for you?

No. No, because I have no skill, right? It seems amazing to me that we accept nothing but the best.

As you said, we want the best we can afford in every area of our life but our spiritual well -being.

In our spiritual well -being, we'll accept mediocrity. Anything goes. The guy has a nice smile.

Great! He speaks eloquently. Great! It doesn't matter what he says. One of the problems

I've always had with Ravi Zacharias, and many people are making this claim now, John MacArthur made the same claim, is that you listen to him, he's all philosophy.

He's not Christian. Most of what he says has nothing to do with Christianity. My wife said, he always tells nice stories.

They're entertaining stories, and they sound great, but they're not Christian. He doesn't give you Bible. Yeah. He doesn't quote the scriptures.

And when he comes to his arguments, they're all philosophy. That's what they are. And so, you look at this and go, he's being held up as this great

Christian speaker, but he's mediocre. He was a mediocre apologist.

And some people are going to be so upset that I would say that. He's a mediocre Christian apologist because he didn't argue for Christianity from the

Bible. He did it from philosophy. He was a philosopher. That is a critical point to understand.

The Holy Spirit is not going to work through platonic philosophy. The Holy Spirit is not going to work through worldly wisdom.

The Holy Spirit is going to work through the word of God he inspired and will achieve the purpose for which he has given it to us.

So, when you go and look at Ravi, I was never a fan of Ravi because it's kind of like Ray said.

You listen to him, and then you get done and think, what was he saying? I'm not trying to convince people to be deists.

I'm trying to introduce people to Christ. And that means you go to scripture, and that means you share the gospel.

I didn't see that in the few books of his that I read and the videos.

No scripture. Zero scripture. Lucid and intellectual arguments, but no scripture.

And the stories he would tell, they're great stories. But once you realize that those personal stories weren't true, you know?

Where he went to school, there was claims where he'd give the same account that occurs at multiple universities.

I think he would just forget what he said, and he'd just mention a university and not realize that he used a different university name.

But when you realize those stories aren't true, you realize they're just stories. And so he really wasn't a great

Christian apologist. You might be able to say he's a great philosopher, but he wasn't a

Christian apologist. And we have to have those categories right. I think you're spot on, bud, that the

Holy Spirit's not going to work through someone who is not appealing to scripture, looking to make a name for himself.

And I'm going to argue, Holy Spirit is not going to work through a person who's not saved.

That's the primary thing. And I'm sorry, with this next quote, you're going to see why

I find it hard to believe. Ravi Zacharias is a believer. And this is the ultimate in spiritual abuse.

If you want to see it, here's the quote that we have from the article, the independent research.

Quote, this witness told us that their relationship began as a normal massage therapist client relationship.

And she came to think of him as a father figure. He elicited information about her faith and her financial situation.

She reported that after he arranged for the ministry to provide her with financial support, he required sex from her.

According to this witness, Mr. Zacharias used religious expressions to gain compliance as she was raised to be a person of faith.

She reported that he made her pray with him to thank

God for the, quote, opportunity, unquote, they both received. He said he called her his, quote, reward, unquote, for living a life of service to God.

And he referenced that many, I'm sorry, he referenced the, quote, godly men, unquote, in the

Bible with more than one wife. She said that he warned her not to speak out against him or she would be responsible for the, quote, millions of souls, unquote, whose salvation would be lost if his reputation was damaged.

That quote right there, out of everything that I read, that quote is the most damning.

And trust me, if you read that article, there are some very illicit things that are in there that he did that are very disturbing.

This is the most disturbing because this gives you the insight into this man. It wasn't enough that he wanted to satisfy his desires, that he wanted to just fantasizing about the women for him wasn't enough.

He actually wanted to groom them, and that's what you see here. He's talking about, oh, how's your relationship with God?

What's he doing? He's using that. What does that do? That lowers their guard. That lowers the woman's guard to think this is a man of faith.

He's concerned about my spiritual well -being. He becomes a father figure. Oh, look, he's going to provide financially.

He didn't provide financially. Who provided? Those who donated to RZIM, you financially provided for this woman.

That's where the money came from, under humanitarianism. That's where her financial support came from.

It came from donors, not even his own. He isn't even willing to put his own money up to take care of these women he abuses.

No, he used nonprofit money to help them. And because it seems humanitarian, because he's bringing these women from other countries to America to help them, or he's funding them in other countries.

It's a humanitarian effort, and the ministry paid that. And what is he doing?

He's using all this to gain a grooming with her, where he's gaining control of her.

He knows about her life, her family life, her financial situation. She feels obligated to him.

Now that he's got her in a position where she's financially supported by him, she needs him.

Now he requires sex from her. And that's not enough. The horrible part is the way he justifies it.

And as my friend had said, yeah, he's going to justify it because in India they have multiple wives. He's using the argument, godly men in the

Bible have multiple wives. Except for one thing, this woman's not his other wife. This woman is being abused.

She's been made into a prostitute because he's paying her. He's groomed her for this.

But the thing that is most sickening, the thing that is the spiritual abuse, this far outweighs in my mind, what he did physically and sexually to these women, and it was a lot, is the part where it says that she said he called her his reward for living a life of service to God.

That is damning. The scripture that comes up to my mind is 1

John 1, 5 -10. This is the message we have heard from him and announced to you that God is light.

And in him there is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him and yet we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

But if we walk in the light, as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus, his son, cleanses us from all sin.

If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

Now this is the thing you end up seeing here. He says if you do not practice the truth, it's not saying you have no sin.

We all have sinned, the passage says that. But it's the practice of life. What is your practice of life?

Ravi's practice of life up until his death. Some of this stuff went on until he was too ill, until a month or two before his death.

It continued. This was the practice of his life. He walked in darkness.

He did not practice the truth. When you look at someone who is abusing people spiritually, he is using his position in their life to satisfy his own appetites, to satisfy his own desires.

His concern is not for these women's spiritual well -being. His concern is for his own satisfaction.

That is spiritual abuse when it comes from someone who is claiming they are a spiritual leader, whether it be a pastor or in his case a speaker who speaks on Christianity and travels around.

When you have people that do this, that is spiritual abuse. They are taking their position as pastor or preacher, speaker, national known

Christian, whatever it may be. They use that to satisfy their own desires.

That is what scripture would refer to as a false teacher. One to be avoided.

Not one to be embraced and defended. And unfortunately far too many people defended

Ravi Zacharias. Far too many people wanted to defend him because of his platform.

This is not uncommon. This happens all the time unfortunately. We see person after person after person who is when truth comes out and they defend the person with the platform, their celebrated preacher because either you will see some people that will say this is what this person has done for me.

We did a whole bunch of episodes about a church out in Iowa on Apologetics Live.

And there are so many people that won't recognize what is going on in that church because a famous evangelist is there.

And because of him and the impact he has had in their life, they won't question what is actually the spiritual abuse and I would say sexual abuse that is going on in that church.

Why? Because you got to protect the friend. You know what? There are people.

I am not going to name names. But there are people, very, very well known people. People you know, whose names you would know, who

I have called up personally and said, hey, listen, I see this in your life or I see something.

And the reality with me is I'll watch the reaction. And if they start defending themselves, my friendship with them may wean very quickly.

But I have a lot of friends who I'm friends with them because of the fact that I can correct them, they can correct me, and we're appreciative of that.

When you have guys like this that start going off and defending themselves and then justifying it spiritually.

Well, you know, it's the last line of what you read that, let's spend a minute and talk about.

It says, quote, she said, this one individual, she said he warned her not ever to speak out against him or she would be responsible for the millions of souls whose salvation would be lost if his reputation was damaged.

So let's just make one thing clear. There may be people out there who, as the

Lord maybe used him as a means to point them to Christianity and the

Holy Spirit goes and leads them and saves them. Their salvation is not based on the integrity of Ravi Zacharias.

Their salvation is based on the integrity of the Lord Jesus Christ. So that needs to be people need to be clear about that.

But the warning sign is if you hear somebody tell you this, run. This is false.

My kids when they're young, if anyone tells you not to tell mommy or daddy something, it's because they want to hurt you.

Yeah, exactly. Not to tell mommy or daddy, tell mommy or daddy. This is a form of control.

This is spiritual abuse. Okay. This fits under the category of control, where now you see what he does.

He does something wrong. And who does he put this on? This is part of grooming. Who does he put the responsibility on?

Logically, guess what? She and he are not responsible for a single soul.

Yeah, right. Hey, God does the saving. And you see the ministry come down.

The only thing that's coming down is those who put their faith in Ravi Zacharias, not Jesus Christ. This didn't change my relationship with Christ or affect my soul at all.

Why? My relationship with Christ, not Ravi. But the only people this hurts is those who put their faith in Ravi.

Where does he put? I want you to see this. So when this happens to you, you can spot this.

When someone puts all the burden on you for their failure, getting known, that is spiritual abuse.

That is a form of control. And why do they do this? These false teachers, they do it out of selfish ambition rather than pure motives.

Now, let me say that there is times where we see this on reverse. We have to take into account when you have someone that says that they're the victim of spiritual, physical, sexual abuse.

We don't reject it out of hand just because of who the person is that supposedly did this.

Just because Ravi did it doesn't mean he's guilty. We have to evaluate it. Because there are times, even in Paul's life,

Philippians chapter 1, starting in verse 12, where you see that people would falsely claim claims against someone who's well known.

Paul said, now I want you to know, brethren, that my circumstances have turned out for the greater progress of the gospel so that my imprisonment in the cause of Christ has become well known throughout the whole praetorium guard and to everyone else.

And that most of the brethren trusting in the Lord, not trusting in Paul, trusting in the

Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more encouraged to speak, far more encouraged to speak the word of God without fear.

Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from goodwill.

The latter do it out of love because they know that I'm appointed for the defense of the gospel.

The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.

Now this is the reality. There are times that someone may be falsely accused, and that is just as wrong.

When someone makes a false accusation to bring down a ministry, we see plenty of discernment bloggers that do this.

There's a YouTube channel, wrongly named Service Christi, who makes his living off of attacking

Justin Peters, Paul Washer, John MacArthur. Makes up information, takes things out of context.

Why? Well, for this, for this reason, because he's doing it for envy and strife.

He's a big nobody. He's an effeminate hairdresser. You say, Andrew, how do you know that?

Because I met Joshua in New York when he came up to us and was upset with us because he didn't like the preaching of the gospel.

He didn't like the gospel going to a hundred people. He rather just go to one person who is topless because that's legal in New York.

He thought that there was something wrong with calling out, you know, explaining the gospel to everyone else. But the reality is, is he's a man that doesn't believe in local church.

He doesn't believe that you should, that pastors and deacons are biblical. How do

I know? He told me that over a meal. By the way, Bud, I don't know if you've seen people do this.

One of his arguments for why John MacArthur is a heretic is John MacArthur has preached at conference with, with John Piper.

And John Piper has preached at conferences with Rick Warren. Therefore, he's a heretic. You know,

I've had a meal with you, Joshua. I've had a meal with John MacArthur. You're a heretic. Somehow, that logic doesn't work the same when it comes to him.

But you see, what you end up having with people like this is they make a living. You see the recent article of Joyce Royous, or whatever her name is, with her article about MacArthur, showing a picture that's not

MacArthur's house. You know, giving all these details, but we're just missing the context of it.

Why do they do that? They do it out of envy. They do it because they make money off of this. You know, she's saying how big

MacArthur's house is when her house is the same size. You know, it's like, oops.

You look at this, and this is why many people do it. So we have to take and evaluate every claim and look at it as if both parties, which one's right, which one's wrong.

Because both of them, we shouldn't just accept the claim that someone is wrong. And we shouldn't just accept the claim that someone is right.

But when there's mounting evidence, you end up seeing a pattern. Remember something, folks.

Spiritual abuse does not happen where someone wakes up and says, I want to be a spiritual predator today.

No, it happens over time. It is the small steps. This did not happen with Ravi just overnight.

This happened with Ravi over small steps that he took. Lying about where he got his degree from.

Having smaller encounters with people trying to get them to send him pictures of them naked.

Starting to touch the masseuse. Starting to uncover yourself. These things happened over time.

But you see the spiritual abuse that occurs when he's sitting here and justifying this.

And claiming this as reward. I mean, the audacity to force a woman into sex.

Make her into a prostitute. And then make her pray, thanking God for the opportunity.

If that doesn't turn your stomach, I will question if you're a Christian. This guy is doing everything that Paul talks about when he speaks of false teachers.

That use their spiritual stature for their own appetites. That's what

Ravi Zacharias did. So if you ask me why I doubt he's a Christian, this is the reason.

I do not see how a Christian could continue this kind of lifestyle for this long in his life.

Up until his death. And then stand there and make claims. But you, I think, have that quote.

The claim that he never had anything that he did lacking integrity. Anything with any woman outside of his wife.

Yeah, he says that in the Miller and Martin report. Page 11.

He further claimed, and the quote from Ravi Zacharias. In my 45 years of marriage to Margie, I have never engaged in any inappropriate behavior of any kind.

And at that time, he was committing multiple inappropriate behaviors with multiple women.

Yeah, that footnote is from December of 2017. So here's the thing that I want you to see.

Someone's going to say they're innocent. That doesn't mean they are. It doesn't matter that Ravi Zacharias has an international ministry.

It doesn't matter. He was a spiritual predator. He abused these women spiritually.

And everybody who donated to the ministry of RZIM to support the ministry.

And he was using it to satisfy his appetites. He abused you also. He was your spiritual abuser also.

You know, you sent me a quote from John MacArthur. And this might be, as you suggested, a good way to end the show.

So let me read this. This is John MacArthur from Good News, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And a friend of yours had put this out there. Yeah, thanks, Rob. So Rob had posted this and it says,

Sometimes, I should say quote, so we know this is the quote. Quote, sometimes we can get discouraged about what's going on among pastors.

We can get discouraged when pastors and church leaders don't teach and preach the word.

And when they don't shepherd and lead the church. It's even more heartbreaking when lives of immorality and ungodliness are exposed.

And an unfaithful pastor makes a shipwreck of his faith and a mockery of the gospel.

Today, we look at the confusion and disarray in the church. Understanding that much of it is due to the lack of godly leadership.

But at the same time, know this. The Lord always has his true shepherds in his hand.

We can rest in the knowledge that there will always be in every generation.

Those faithful shepherds whom he uses to edify and shepherd his church.

The Lord will never leave his sheep without a shepherd.

True, faithful and trustworthy shepherds. Even when it seems that the dysfunction and disarray dominate the church.

God always has his true shepherds in the palm of his sovereign care.

I think that's a fitting way to end this discussion with Ravi Zacharias. I think that this is something that for many, they've been asking questions.

Sometimes I believe they're asking the wrong questions. I think it's the wrong question to be asking is

Ravi Zacharias in hell today. We can ask that. You obviously know my position now and see why.

But I think the more important question that we can learn from Ravi Zacharias is this idea of seeing how people can spiritually abuse other people.

Recognize the grooming, recognizing behavior, so you will not be spiritually abused by a pastor, by a celebrity preacher, or anybody else.

Do not let someone use God's word to try to control you and abuse you spiritually.

Because it will stunt your spiritual growth when they redirect your faith from Christ to them.

Because they become more important than God. And you saw that in that quote from Ravi that he thinks that millions of souls are at stake with his reputation.

It tells you where they're at. Before we go, just a quick reminder. We'll be in Beulah Baptist Church, May 7th to 9th.

That will be Dr. Anthony Silvestro, Justin Peters, and myself. We will be doing a Snatch Them From The Flames conference or seminar.

It is our extended seminar where we'll deal with, we'll have six sessions.

Two from Justin Peters that will cover the sufficiency of scripture. I will then cover the topic of interpreting scripture.

Dr. Silvestro will deal with two topics. He will deal with both of them in social justice, the history of social justice, and dealing with social justice.

I will then, we'll then have the section that deals with false teachers. And Justin will deal with the topic of discerning false teachers.

And I will deal with the topic of identifying false teachers. So that is our discernment conference called Snatch Them From The Flames.

It is a weekend seminar if you want to have one in your church, if you want the extended one with all three of us, or the one that doesn't have the social justice component.

If you don't have the social justice component, it's just the Saturday. But this is something you can have at your church.

Just contact us. Contact speaker at strivingforeternity .org. Speaker at strivingforeternity .org.

If you want to get the details for that, just check, go to Beulah Baptist Church in Winter Garden, Florida.

So if you're in that area that time. Also let you know June 3rd to the 6th, Dr. Svestro, Justin Peters, and I will also be at Cruciform Conference.

That'll be in Indiana. I don't have the location of that yet, but Cruciform Conference, if you just search for Cruciform Conference, they will get the information

I'm sure to you as it becomes available. So look forward to those two events.

I'm disappointed I won't be at Shepherds Conference, bud. I won't see you. That was quite disappointing that that had to get postponed, but I will be down in your area in May.

So we'll have to make sure to hook up for that and get together. And folks,

I do want to let you know that if you could support us at Striving for Training, we could definitely use your support.

This year has been a difficult year. If you would go to strivingforeturning .org slash donate, there are ways to donate there.

Those of you who are on Patreon, you're watching this when we drop it and we thank you for your support.

Those who give the one time, we appreciate that as well. We don't care the amount we do appreciate every bit.

And those who are still and sign up for our newsletter, be looking next week or this week,

I should say every day, I'm going to be giving you an email. We'll be sending out an email every day this week, just a little bit of insight into what's been happening in 2020 and striving for eternity.

I will say that many have told me that the surprising part is what will come out on Friday, some statistics on our website.

And I'll be releasing more of that on striving for eternity in a blog article that will come out in March.

That will give you guys more insight into the ministry of striving for attorney and what support you're people who support what it goes to.

It doesn't go to humanitarian efforts, paying masseuses. I'm just telling you that. In fact, when you look at our support,

I believe it, I don't remember the exact number offhand. I think it's about 72 or 73 % of all the money raised goes to ministry, not to salaries and things like that.

It goes to ministry, going to churches, to getting us to be able to go to churches and speak where they can't afford it.

Small churches. That's what we do. That's a big part of what your support does is to give those smaller churches, the big church feeling of having a weekend seminar in a conference in their church.

It is a very helpful thing for these smaller churches. So if you want to support that effort, we greatly appreciate it.

We also are still looking to get to reschedule our trip to India, to speak to India, to, to,

I think it was 75 pastors. We're looking to get to Guatemala to speak to churches there.

Those two trips that got canceled last year, and we're still looking to hopefully send a team of people to the Olympics to evangelize in Japan.

So that is the hope. And so those are things your support will help us be able to do.

So we thank you for that. That is this week's episode. And you know what, bud?