Archbishop Vigano Torches Francis, Open Phones

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:33

Well greetings welcome to the dividing line we're gonna take your zoom calls today the information is on Twitter only got one person up right now

00:41

I did put the notification up fairly early this morning, but hey We will see what we'll do with that.

00:48

I needed to start with something else initially anyways Though I I'm seeing all this material on social media about another young Victim of the invasion

01:06

That has been initiated by the Biden regime because that's what what's it has happened We've this this nation has been invaded over the past three years millions and millions and millions of people most of them we have no idea where they are and Many military age young men of from all over the world

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It truly is just in my opinion the largest Public example of treason ever.

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I mean, they're just we're being run by traitors. It's all there is to it. It's Just judgment.

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They're the same people that put multicolored lights, you know, the rainbow lights on the White House But another young lady beautiful young lady raped and murdered by Illegal immigrants they are not illegal immigrants.

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They are invaders Just criminal invaders is what they should be called because that's there but the people in charge want it because they want the end of this this nation and they are accomplishing that and I Have the distinct feeling they will continue that work after November of this year anyway, um

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That's got an email Meet Trump. Are you free for dinner? Yeah, right I'm sure that's exactly

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Exactly what's going on there, uh, but before we get to our callers or You know, they're not really callers, you know, did that do you even have that mean that I don't

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This phone mean anything anymore. Does anyone use a phone as a phone is good another good question.

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Um, Ooh, that's a tough one. Um We do need to talk about Something happened this morning

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Archbishop Vigano who was the papal nuncio to the United States What about eight years ago somewhere around that time period?

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I think up through 2016 anyway fairly well -known individual

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Has been summoned to Rome by the Inquisition also known as the

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Dicastery for the doctrine of the faith but that's the nice long less offensive term for the

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Inquisition and He put out a statement that is just fire

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I mean You've you've got I'm going to read them I need to read some sections of it here it is very very important He says the

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Dicastery the doctrine of faith has informed me of the simple email of the initiation of an extra judicial Penal trial against me with the accusation of having committed the crime of schism and charging me of having denied the legitimacy of quote

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Pope Francis close quote of having broken communion quote with him capitalized

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H close quote and of having rejected the Second Vatican Council I have been summoned to the palace the

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Holy Office on June 20th in person or represented by a canon lawyer I assume that the sentence has already been prepared given that it is an extra judicial process.

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I regard the accusations against me as an honor. I Believe the very wording the charges confirms the the theses that I have repeatedly defended my various addresses

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It is no coincidence that the accusation against me concerns the questioning of the legitimacy of Jorge Mario Bergoglio That's Pope Francis.

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That was that's his actual name And that's what he will refer to him as all the way through this document and the rejection of Vatican to the

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Council Vatican to Represents the ideological theological moral and liturgical cancer of which

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Bergoglian synodal church at this Synod and synodality thing going on right now in Rome is the necessary Metastasis this he's calling this cancer.

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So I Don't think he's fighting the charge Then yeah, let me make sure

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Understand what I'm saying He says it is necessary for the Episcopate the clergy and the people of God to seriously ask themselves

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Whether it is consistent with the profession of the Catholic faith to passively witness the systematic destruction of the church by its leaders

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Just as other subversives are destroying civil society Interesting parallel, isn't it?

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globalism calls for ethnic substitution Bergoglio promotes uncontrolled immigration and calls the integration of cultures and religions

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Globalism supports LGBTQ plus ideology Bergoglio authorizes the blessing of same -sex couples and imposes on the faithful the acceptance of homosexualism while covering up the scandals of his protégés and promoting promoting them to the highest positions of responsibility

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Globalism imposes the green agenda Bergoglio worships the idol of the Pachamama writes delirious encyclicals about the environment

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Supports the agenda 2030 and attacks those who question the theory of man -made global warming

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He goes beyond his role in matters that strictly pertain to science But always and only in one direction a direction that is diametrically opposed to what the church has always taught

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He has mandated the use of experimental gene serums, which caused very serious damage death and sterility

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Calling them an act of love in exchange for funding from pharmaceutical companies and philanthropic foundations

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His total alignment with the Davos religion is scandalous Wherever governments at the service of the

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World Economic Forum have introduced introduced or extended abortion promoted vice legitimized homosexual unions or Gender transition encouraged euthanasia and tolerated the persecution of Catholics Not a word has been spent in defense of the faith or morals that are threatened or in support of the civil battles of so Many Catholics who have been abandoned by the

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Vatican and the bishops Not a word for the persecuted Catholics in China with the complicity of the

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Holy See which considers Beijing's billions more important than the lives and freedom of thousands of Chinese who are faithful to the

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Roman Church in The synodal church presided over by Bergoglio. He doesn't call him

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Pope Francis No schism is recognized among the German Episcopate or among the government aided government appointed bishops

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Who have been consecrated in China without the mandate of Rome? Because their action is consistent with the destruction of the church and therefore must be concealed minimized tolerated and finally encouraged in These 11 years of pontificate the

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Catholic Church has been humiliated and discredited above all Because the scandals and corruption of the leaders of the hierarchy which have been totally ignored even as the most ruthless

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Vatican authoritarianism raged against faithful priests and religious small communities of traditional nuns and Communities tied to the

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Latin Mass. That's pretty obvious Yeah, he's he's talking about Bergoglio's Purpose of those who used a council to contradict the

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Catholic ministerium begin to demolish the church from within in small steps But all is in a single direction

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All is with the indulgent tolerance or culpable inaction if not the explicit approval of the

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Roman authorities The Catholic Church has been slowly But surely taken over and Bergoglio has been given the task of making it a philanthropic

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Agency the Church of Humanity of inclusion of the environment at the service the

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New World Order This is not the Catholic Church. It is her counterfeit The resignation of Benedict the 16th and the appointment by the st 8 -gallon mafia of a successor in line with the diktats of the agenda 2030 was intended to allow and has succeeded in allowing the global coup to take place with complicity and authoritative support of the

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Church of Rome Bergoglio is to the church what other world leaders are to their nation's traitors

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Subversives and final liquidators of traditional society who are certain of impunity

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Bergoglio's defect of consent and accepting his election is based precisely on the evident alienity of his action of government and magisterium

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With respect to what any Catholic of any age expects in the vicar of Christ and the successor of the

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Prince of the Apostles everything that Bergoglio does constitutes an offense and a provocation of to the entire

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Catholic Church to her Saints of all times to the martyrs who were killed in odium fide and to the

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Popes of all times until the second Vatican Council This is also in principally an offense against the divine head of the church

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Goes through him. Okay in the face of the Dicastery's accusations I claim as successor of the

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Apostles to be in full communion with the Roman Catholic Apostolic Church with the magisterium of the

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Roman Pontiffs and with the uninterrupted doctrinal moral and liturgical tradition, which they have faithfully preserved now,

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I think I get the feeling that the reason he never refers to Pope Francis is that he's denying that he is a valid Pope and That therefore he can say with the magisterium of the

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Roman Pontiffs because he's not including Francis as one of those Roman Pontiffs And all of this just takes us back to the real problem

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I think he's right in most of what he's saying in the observing that intentions of of Francis and Certainly the the incredible encroachment of Leftism within Roman Catholicism, that's actually nothing new.

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It certainly didn't start with Bergoglio But liberation theology and all the rest that kind of stuff, but you all denied

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Sola Scriptura a long time ago you what you can't fix this he's your

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Pope you're stuck with him and You might want to say well, but he's not a true Pope because he's not

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But you're you're now appealing to an authority. That isn't where Rome has ended up going

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You're stuck Was there something you wish to I did appreciate the Mafia comment that was fun to hear but Given the fact that a certain friend of ours is going to be interviewing.

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Dr. Roberts and Janice tomorrow This is quite timely. I think this could be an interesting question to raise to doc

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I I would imagine Chris will probably ask him what he thinks about the

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Vigano situation And all of these accusations, yeah that that that will probably that will probably take place let me just finish this off.

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Um, I repudiate the Neo -modernist errors inherent in the

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Second Vatican Council and the so -called post conciliar magisterium in particular in matters of collegiality ecumenism

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Religious freedom the secularity of the state and the liturgy. There's a lot there. I mean we could stop Stop there and go religious freedom.

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Did you catch that? I repudiate reject and condemn the scandals errors and heresies of Jorge, Mario Jorge Mario Bergoglio Pope Francis What easier to say

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Pope Francis isn't it? Who manifests an absolutely tyrannical management of power?

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exercised against the purpose that legitimizes authority in the church an authority that is vicarious of that of Christ and As such must obey him alone this separation of the papacy from its legitimizing principle, which is

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Christ the high priest transforms the ministerium into a self -referential tyranny That's true

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Because of the nature of the unbiblical office of the papacy to begin with Okay so There is only one high priest

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There are not other priests after him the entire sacerdotal priesthood is an unbiblical error and if you know these these errors began long long ago, and they've just come together over time to form the

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Problem, they're now facing No Catholic worthy of the name can be in communion with the

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Bergolian Church Because it acts in clear discontinuity and rupture with all the

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Popes of history and with the Church of Christ now is he acting in discontinuity with The Roman Church from say

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Trent until Right before Vatican to yes

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That's not the entire historic Church by stretch the imagination

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But there's your problem you've repudiated the one source that could give you a

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Foundation for a reformation, but you won't and can't go there Let's see here

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Anyway, so that that's it's well worth reading I retweeted it

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Reposted it Every terminology and so I would recommend that you take a look at it

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I'm noticing at just a tremendous amount of Roman Catholic activity on Twitter today. Not really about that but just the

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Incredible sophistry And that's what it is it's sophistry that Roman Catholics, there's a guy named

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Marcado Rizzo And And there's a number of other people like him

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I think a number of people said and I commented on Twitter this morning Protestia has been posting video

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Of people worshipping Mary. I mean, it's that's all it is You can you can play hyper veneration games all you want there worshiping

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Mary I mean, they're bowing down to statues and they're they're they're putting Like these long pieces of cloth in her hands and then they they all get under it like they're all under her protection

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Oh, it's just It's amazing. It's worship. It's religious worship. It's in the context of religion.

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It's idolatry. There isn't a question about it But if you want the picture of sophistry

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Listen to how they defend it if you want to see how to absolutely Manhandle the text of Scripture Look at them trying to well, you know, this is where The the

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Queen Mother office was established and that's this stuff and you just just go I mean, it's mentioned once and this is an office and anything

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Anything that can be connected to Mary almost anything that uses a feminine word

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Will be connected to Mary Because you know, most people can read the

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New Testament and they would never come up with the idea of the centrality of Mary but that's where Rome is in its practice and so They will find anything in Scripture and I am certainly seeing it right now

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Wow Yeah, I mean seven this says 17 seconds ago this

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Marcado guy Quotes as Jesus said from the cross behold your mother

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Eve was mother of all the living but failed so God restarted with Mary as Paul said in Galatians 4

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Christians are born in Christ of the free woman. Mary is God's rebuke of the devil

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Now I hope you can catch where all of that was ridiculous and how you're reading stuff into things That just was never intended to be there at all.

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But this is this is how this is a religion of Mary It's not a religion of Christ religion of Mary it is truly an astonishing thing to observe but the sophistry

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And that's what it is. It's sophistry that Rome uses to defend. These things is Truly amazing.

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Okay. All right, so let's let's get to our phone calls and Try to get through as many of them as we can here

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Though these are some pretty widely wide variety of questions here. Let's let's start with with Nick Dr.

18:18

White pleasure to talk with you. Yes, sir Shout out to rich who's making things run smoothly in the zoom call by the way, too

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Well that depends on how you define smoothly. But anyway So I've been

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Listening to the last few episodes of the dividing line Where you were doing the takedown of?

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Dan McClellan and his comments about New Testament manuscripts. I forget which episode it was but you you made a comment about Conjectural inundations in the

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New Testament are I don't know if you use the word unnecessary or But but they are essentially unnecessary because you use the

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Illustration that has been used by others. We have like a 10 ,000 piece jigsaw puzzle

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But we have 11 ,000 pieces when it comes to the text of the New Testament And when you when you said that in the episode that Peaked the question that I want to ask you now, and that's what what's your

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General what are your general thoughts on? Conjectural inundations in the

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Old Testament. I mean, you know how we got the Old Testament is a very different Way and then we got the

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New Testament and you know, you have Dead Sea Scrolls and Maybe septuagental considerations have to come in as well.

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But yeah, just your general thoughts on conjectural inundations in the

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Old Testament Well, it is a different situation You do have significantly fewer

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Manuscripts that are close to the originals I've seen some say that they can you know between 5 and 20 places almost all having to do with numbers

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Sometimes names But since numbers were represented by letters that created a real

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Transmissional problem and most of the Difficulties that I know of in the

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Old Testament text flow from Chronologies names things like that.

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They're not they're not doctrinal things. They're Things that arose out of The the fact that if you you know, there were certain scribes that confused names with numbers and numbers with names and and you do have parallel accounts between first second

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Kings and first second Chronicles and and so there there'd be a

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Temptation on the part of scribes which we see in the New Testament as well To try to harmonize those types of things.

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So I've heard some people say between like 5 and 20 places where they feel like There would be a smoother

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A more contextually consistent reading than what might be represented by The Masoretic text the earliest forms the

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Masoretic text and the problem is with here we get into The the textual criticism of the

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Old Testament is a Completely different animal than the new because of the nature of the text the purpose of the text initially

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As being the covenant documents of one particular nation and so it's not like the

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Jews were making copies to send out to Gentile nations and all the rest that kind of stuff the reproduction of manuscripts scrolls was primarily focused upon the synagogue and the well in the

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Once to get into that time period and before that pretty much the temple And so We do have all sorts of sources that most people are not familiar with So you've got the

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Targums and and you've got Aramaic versions and there's variations within the Masoretic text in the early periods that get sort of Taken care of over time

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By the Masoretes by the 9th century, but what we call we call the

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Masoretic tradition the Masoretic tradition anachronistically, we the

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Masoretes didn't exist until later in in church history, but the

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Form of the text that they possessed goes before them and we call it by that name.

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So it's a little bit confusing actually But yeah, most most people are really not up on how to deal with what

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Textual traditions were available in the days of Jesus and That includes the differing

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Traditions that were behind the Greek Septuagint. Not all the Greek Septuagint books were translated with the same level of facility

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Yes, there's a lot there's a lot there so Given that the Old Testament is considerably larger, but more importantly considerably older Than the

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New Testament, then that's why you have A relatively larger number of places where someone would say

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Yeah, I'm just not really sure what the number here is. We're not really sure what the name is here

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Something along those lines and so yeah, I can see much more of a reason for that But that's just simply that's really not even

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The transmission of the text that's just simply how old it is There are you just need to understand

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That there are very few works Like the books of the

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Tanakh the Old Testament That we have sufficient Textual data from to even be doing much in the way of Textual criticism, especially in any at any time period say prior to the time of Christ There just aren't very many works that that have that kind of antiquity

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That that we'd be working with so it's a whole different world Than what you're working with with the

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New Testament and again at least theologically speaking You know

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Psalm 22 Isaiah 53 some of these key theological texts

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You know, you'd want to look very closely at the difference between they clawed at my hands or they pierced my hands

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That's a difference in the Masoretic text Jeremiah 31 Though I was a husband to them though.

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I didn't care for them text of a variant that comes across in Hebrews but there's still a very small number a very small amount of the actual text and As far as the having theological ramifications

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I really can't think of of any of those that would have any theological ramifications at all

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Personally, so yeah, it's it's a very very very different field because it's a much much much older field and hence you have much less in the way of Manuscript documentation that's going to be directly relevant so a follow -up would be

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You know you talk about the the tenacity of the new the text of the New Testament What would be your thoughts on say the tenacity of the

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Old Testament text? Well again if there's if there is if there's room for conjectural emendation in you know, five to twenty places then you you don't have as much the the tenacity of the

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New Testament text came from its broad copying and distribution and up until Well up until the intertestamental period you don't have that kind of of broad

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Copying and transmission of the Old Testament text those those are primarily considered covenantal documents with one particular people it's not until You have the dispersion of the

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Jews After you know 580 something like that and in going into other nations.

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Did you start having other? Translations being done or or things like that with the

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Old Testament text and so it's just a it's a completely different context and Once you get back, you know 500 years for Christ.

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You don't really have anything. I mean we get all excited when we find a Manuscript or more likely a an inscription on stone

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Metal something like that That dates from that far back

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Once you really once you get past the time of Christ the amount of literary material is extremely small and most of it is

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Ostraca pot sherds And of course in Babylon a place like that clay tablets but very very very very few of those

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Would reflect a anything that would be part of the Old Testament text.

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So there you go Awesome thank you very much. Dr. White. Okay, you're most welcome.

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Thank you, sir Nothing like an easy one to start off with that because then we go to another easy one.

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Let's talk to Pete. Hi Pete Hello Pete.

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Hello. Dr. White. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I Am Well, first of all,

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I want one to thank you for your ministry 10th year listening to the dividing line for me And I'm just about as old as the ministry itself.

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So I'm not You know that old anyway I Wanted I'm on the fence really about annihilationism because I go to a

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Calvinist Church and you've helped me understand Calvinism and accept it, but I'm still kind of hung up about Annihilationism and I want to kind of help focus the argument because sometimes

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Like arguing with dr. Flowers about what happens to people who are given to Jesus.

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We all agree about that It's just how so with annihilationism when people say things like Annihilationists don't believe in hell or they ignore the word eternal or they don't give a place for God's justice

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It's kind of it. They it shuts down the argument because It's those aren't things that annihilationists actually disagree with With me, sorry, but I hear you.

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Yeah Okay. Well getting to the the questions Really the the key texts are in Malachi and Matthew and then the two in Revelation for eternal conscious torment and I guess my first question would be how would a believing

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Jew or Christian understand Malachi chapter 4? Before the book of Revelation was written.

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Did they see that as a picture of Judgment Day? What what text are you talking about Malachi 4 1 through 3

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For behold the day is coming burning like a furnace and all the arrogant and every worker of Witness will be chaffed and the day is coming that will set them aflame

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Says Yahweh of hosts so that it will leave them neither root nor branch but for you who fear my name the

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Son of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings and You will go forth and skip like calves from the stall and you will tread down the wicked where they will be ashes under the soles

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Of your feet on the day the witch I'm preparing says Yahweh of hosts yeah,

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I don't I Don't think that a lot of these texts that are normally where the time is taken

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Are where the real issue is in regards to? Whatever form of annihilationism you've been exposed to whether it's fudge or Chris date or whatever it is.

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There's lots of Variations and different forms of emphases and You know, there's there are universalistic annihilationists in one sense

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There are there's there's just a lot of variation that is that is available out there in the same way the vast majority of Conservative Christians who hold to what they think is a

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Historically Orthodox view on Eternal punishment hell, etc, etc are not aware of The the history of the development of the doctrine they're not aware of Issues in relationship to the

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First century and how people would have understood things so, you know when I look at a

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Malachi 4 I don't I don't necessarily

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See anything more there than a lot of the judgment passages that are picked up in the

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New Testament The the question is do we do we receive in New Testament language?

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greater clarity as to the actual final

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Disposition of the unrighteous and the fulfillment of God's justice in regards to sin and in regards to his own law and For me the issue is not well, you know this passage talks about the smoke of their burning shall go up Forever and ever and so they obviously have to still be there for their burning to be going up and the other side says no

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That's just simply The place where they were destroyed continues to exist so it's a

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Testimony to the fact that they once existed but now they've been destroyed and you can you can run around the gum stump all you want for me the issue is is theological and that is

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By the way, I would just like to say I I wish I could be an annihilationist I wish

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I could I wish I could be a conditionalist and the majority of New Testament scholars are In my opinion,

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I think if you just look broadly the majority of New Testament scholars are because it's the easier way

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That doesn't make it the right way, but it's the easier way You don't have to deal with all sorts of tough questions if you just simply say the evil on the

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Day of Judgment are Dispensed with they die that is their punishment is death and That's cessation of conscious existence and they just they're just gone.

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There's that's all there is to it And now again, and like I said, there are some that go

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Well, actually there's going to be periods of punishment And so really really really bad people would be punished for X amount of time and people weren't really really bad

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We punished for a lesser amount of time before they're finally Extinguished or something along those lines.

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So like I said That's one of the problems is there's all sorts of different views out there that that people have promulgated at some point or another and With credit to the other side

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People who believe in eternal conscious punishment have not In general thought through exactly what they mean by that or the mechanisms or things like that and in some ways

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We simply have to say we don't know what the mechanisms are on certain certain aspects of these things But going back to the theological issue the the real problem

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I see with Conditionalism annihilationism again, they can be differentiated by various people in different ways is

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That there is a fundamental and foundational assumption that when a person dies they cease sinning and they at least in some sense enter into a

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Neutral Relationship toward God to where they're not sinning any longer, but they're also not doing good so they're sort of in a moral limbo,

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I guess Upon death and so people can say well, you know a person only sinned for 60 years in their life.

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And So, how can they be punished for more than 60 years? In the afterlife or something along those lines and my understanding of Mankind does not have any grounds for saying that When a person dies all of a sudden

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God by his grace is going to change their nature To make them sinless.

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I mean they're gonna continue in their sin And in fact it would seem

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The the pictures were given of mankind for example in Revelation chapter 6 One of the most striking text is that when

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God's judgment falls The greatest of men and the least of men and everybody in between Calls upon the mountains to fall upon them to hide them from the wrath of he who sits upon the throne and from the

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Lamb It's not repentance in the face of judgment It's trying to hide.

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It's not submission. It continues rebellion and so If there is continued rebellion and continued sin

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On the part of individual X after death then

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That has to be factored in to where you'd have to say well Yes, they continued in their sin and therefore

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God decided to simply destroy them And to halt their sin in that way but that that ends all the objections on the basis of justice and things like that because the vast majority of objections that I've heard based upon the idea of injustice has been along the lines of Finite sin should not be able to bring about Infinite punishment but the reality is

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Are we are we in light of such texts because I think It's more like like texts in Matthew.

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Maybe that's what you're referring to the righteous and eternal eternal life unrighteous eternal punishment

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If we're going to take anything from those I think at least there there is a direct parallel the the question really has to do with What is the nature of punishment and why would

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God continue the existence of The rebellious and the unrighteous

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What does that what does that accomplish And do we have to necessarily know what that would accomplish and what would be the basis of Ceasing their existence in the fact that they continue in their rebellion

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Now, I don't believe I've said this a number of times. I don't believe God has to extend any kind of power whatsoever to punish anyone in hell,

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I Don't believe there are demons running around pitchforks or anything like that at all

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The weeping and gnashing of teeth I believe is a picture of a

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Person made in the image of God who can no longer express their rebellion against God They are alone.

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There aren't gonna be any parties in hell they're in darkness and the only thing they're left with is themselves and They are the last representation of God to themselves because they're made in the image of God.

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And so I I would And it's frightening to think of but I would think that in God's giving finally giving them over entirely

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To themselves, that's the punishment Because they will turn on themselves So it's not like God's sitting up there throwing lightning bolts doing any of the rest that kind of stuff.

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It's not like there's anybody Repenting or wanting something other there's nobody down there's go.

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Oh, I want to worship you. No, no No, no, all that is is completely off the table

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And so the the real question is do I have a solid basis for believing that?

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Despite their ongoing rebellion despite their continuing to be Enemies of God that at some point and we're not sure exactly when at some point

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God just says You're gone you you cease to exist

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Despite the fact you're continuing in your rebellion I made you in my image, but you're continuing your rebellion, but I'm going to end your existence

40:42

That's that's what you could that's what People who would what

40:47

I would consider to be Orthodox annihilationists or Orthodox conditionalists who believe in the

40:53

Trinity and justification by faith all the rest that kind of stuff That is central and defining That's where they end up and have ended up.

41:02

You know, I think of people like John Stott Who took positions like that?

41:08

But that's where you'd have to go It can't be based upon no God can't punish or it can't be based on all the rest of that kind of stuff that that Doesn't that doesn't work?

41:18

There has to be a meaningful theological understanding of how the justice of God Can be fulfilled with individuals who are still rebels and Just cutting them off in that situation and taking them out of out of existence

41:43

Which is what I would understand it annihilationism is it's just simply a cessation of existence

41:50

So I think this is in my opinion This is a

41:59

Topic that Of all the theological topics

42:04

I can think of it is the one where people within evangelical churches

42:11

Hold a doctrine that they've never thought through It's just accepted because it's what everybody says and they've never thought through why and So I think that's why conditionalism annihilationism

42:27

Can catch people off guard because they've never thought about it. They've never thought through it and Like I said, it would be a lot easier to take that position it really would be

42:42

But I just don't see how you make it see I look at it dealing with like Muslims and The fact that in Islam God can without real solid foundational basis

43:01

Except one and not another Without a

43:06

Sacrifice or sins without a mediator without there's no concern for the fulfillment of God's justice in how a law works and So I have to go, okay,

43:21

I've got to be consistent at this point because I'm saying that what God does in Christ fulfills his justice in all ways and So I have to be consistent and how

43:34

I'm thinking about all these things so Yeah, I I often cringe to be honest with you when

43:43

I hear people talking about this subject and I can tell by the way, they're talking about they've never given it.

43:51

That's why I called in. Okay, so How did you understand

44:00

Malachi 4th was it a picture of Judgment Day? Um, I I don't think you can prove that it's a picture of judgment, but is it

44:10

Judgment Day? or is this in regards to Judgment on Israel like you could make an argument that it's it's judgment against Israel and not the final

44:22

Judgment Day But there would be there are places where judgment upon Israel and the final Judgment Day are conflated

44:28

So that's why I say it's I don't know that you can necessarily Come to conclusions on this

44:36

By just looking at those kinds of text text Eschatologically from my perspective.

44:42

It's a theological issue in regards to the justice of God Not does this is this text?

44:47

Yes, can we prove that this text is referring to this and not to that that kind of thing? I I don't

44:53

I don't know that those those types of arguments actually end up getting us very far Okay.

45:01

Yeah, sorry for getting worked up a little bit If I could ask one more question, that's that's more of the the theological than verse interpretation

45:09

How do we understand? He will wipe away every tear and the former things will not come to mind

45:15

Together with people being tormented forever ever and smoke of their torment going up forever Well, I don't see if I don't see a contradiction between the two there.

45:24

You're talking about two completely different Unless you're literally saying he will wipe away every tear means every tear of people under punishment

45:31

That's not what it's referring to. So I don't I don't see where there's a Contradiction there

45:38

So I yeah that one I wouldn't see as a that's just a category issue It's who's being talked about And I'm now getting ugly looks from across the glass because we have other collars and I've been going on so long.

45:50

So Apologize for that. But anyways, hopefully useful.

45:56

Thank you. Thanks Pete. Ah, okay Amir Yes, sir

46:11

Great First dr. White. It's a an honor. I'm privileged to talk to you. I as much as I would like to Blame you for my conversion, but I'm a

46:20

Calvinist. So I got the material to bless me really on my family And so really

46:26

I a heartfelt. Thank you to you and your ministry. Thank you So I'm coming from a

46:32

Muslim background and I noticed that you mentioned a couple times. Dr. Shoemaker's Critical historical critical study of Quran.

46:40

So for so my question is twofold first, what are your most recent thoughts on that work and on the theory that or the hypothesis that he

46:51

Offers and its implications on apologetics with regards to Islam and second if we use that kind of a revisionist perspective, or if we adopt that kind of perspective wouldn't that open us to The sort of attacks from the revisionist camp in the biblical studies well what you're referring to in fact,

47:14

I was I had over here on the table

47:21

Shoemaker's a prophet has appeared the rise of Islam through Christian and Jewish eyes a source book

47:26

That's not I think what you're referring to. I that one. I only have in Kindle format and I have not worked my way all the way through it.

47:37

So I can't give you any really serious interaction with it, but I don't think

47:43

I think on the one hand there is something to be said of Trying to be consistent in the sources that you're using.

47:52

But at the other hand Shoemaker for example is is I took the book home actually last night, but I'm looking at his in -depth work on the development of the

48:08

Marian cult in ancient Christianity and He is careful to say, you know, these are theories this is this is

48:21

You know more work needs to be done. We may not have enough sources to come to these conclusions But it's interesting to note this and it's interesting to note that and you know, that's the best that you can do with redaction criticism and source criticism and things like that You know the the

48:39

Muslim that says well We can't engage in any of this because we just simply believe that this is what the

48:47

Quran is. And so we won't even interact With the evidence that the text itself gives us

48:56

That you know when it says there is there is no fingerprint of man on the Quran there's actually lots of fingerprints of man on the

49:03

Quran and We don't actually have a problem with that. We don't have a problem

49:10

Because As Peter said men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

49:16

So it's it's men men spoke from God and so We can look at history and we can

49:25

Recognize Vocabulary differences between Paul and Peter and John and Isaiah and and I mean

49:34

Jeremiah it's it's hard to even read Jeremiah's prophecy without becoming immersed in the historical context of What was taking place at that specific point in time?

49:44

And so we don't reject Critical scholarship we reject unbelieving critical scholarship.

49:52

So in other words when critical scholarship Says to us we cannot have the supernatural so Isaiah 40 and following has to be

50:04

Deutero Isaiah Because it names Cyrus by name and we all know there can't be prophecy that's the kind of Critical theology critical

50:18

Inquiry and scholarship that has to be rejected because it has very glaring presuppositions that keep it from fairly dealing with the text and so Up to the you know

50:33

You don't have to reject the existence of the supernatural To recognize that there are some really really serious problems with the

50:44

Quran's Utilization of External sources. It's painfully obvious that the author of the

50:52

Quran had no earthy idea what the canon of the New Testament was or what the content of the

50:58

New Testament was and Thought that stories he had heard circulated amongst

51:03

Christians in his experience were a part of what's actually found in the New Testament You know quoting the the making of the clay birds and and things like this these are much much later

51:17

Gnostic and semi Gnostic myths that the author of the Quran thought Were a part of the

51:24

Injil, but they're not So you're not having to adopt some kind of naturalistic presupposition

51:33

To ask the question. Why didn't the author of the Quran understand what almost any

51:39

Christian of that day would have understood? That's very different than dealing with the presuppositions of so much of for example

51:48

Old Testament scholarship that just simply starts with this these are the self contradictory

52:00

Incoherent edited Stories of ancient people there was no Moses probably wasn't any

52:06

David etc. Etc. Etc That only came into the form that we have five or six hundred years before Christ And we can't have any type of supernatural there couldn't have been a parting of the

52:19

Red Sea or something Yeah, I don't I don't criticize the Quran for containing miracles

52:25

I could criticize the Quran for having less knowledge of the Bible than I have Because it was fragile originally is read allegedly penned by the very finger of God and I figure if God exists

52:37

He knows the Bible better than I do Even if even if the Bible's been corrupted he knows the Bible is that exist today so That's the difference.

52:46

I think I think you do have to be and I have tried to exhort others

52:52

You do have to be slow and careful in grabbing hold of criticisms of the

53:01

Quran and the history of Islam Because you have to look at What is this criticism based upon?

53:09

Is it based upon a fair reading of the Quranic text? Does it require us to embrace an anti -supernaturalism

53:17

That would be inconsistent with our own defense of our faith But if it doesn't then it's perfectly fair game.

53:26

And the thing I appreciate about shoemaker is He's an incredibly

53:35

Thorough Researcher, I mean he from what I've read and like I said, I haven't

53:40

I haven't Gotten through this and stuff like that But the the amount of material that he's he's working through and and is utilizing is

53:52

Really fantastic. So the book that you're referring to I picked it up a couple months ago and One of the main things

53:57

I want to get through. Of course, I wasn't exactly doing that from a hospital bed. But um What I really wanted to do is to look at The interface of his comments on Islam with his material on Mary specifically

54:13

Mary's centrality in the Quran only woman named in the Quran and especially surah 5 1 16 and I haven't had a chance to do that yet.

54:21

So I hope to find the time to do it, but I was sort of falling falling behind things of late and I'm trying to catch up.

54:29

So There you go Great. So if I may quickly follow up and I know

54:36

I'm taking a lot of time So but this is the only opportunity that I have so I'm gonna take it is there any work on the relationship between the

54:45

Gnostic sort of traditions or allegories that appear in the Quran and and the sort of the relationship between narcissism that appeared in the early

54:55

Century of Christianity and then the same stories that then come into our

55:01

Quran Not that I know specifically that it's mentioned it has to be mentioned in any serious scholarly analysis of The citations of the

55:15

Quran of the Early stories about Jesus The There there are none there

55:26

I'm trying to remember right now I actually there is And I know where it would be in my bookshelf, but I can't think of the name off top my head

55:36

But there have been some works recently on the subject of the

55:42

Quran That have delved into source material

55:48

That would give you that information, I'm sorry off the top of my head I don't remember the authors don't have the books in front of me right now, but there have been

55:58

I Don't remember if I think Reynolds. Yeah Reynolds did some of that stuff in the work that he's done and a number of other people are really analyzing from a source perspective and I think that's fair game because if if the

56:18

Quran is going to quote sources and quote stories

56:24

Then it's perfectly fair game to ask were these were these things true if if the

56:30

Quran is assuming they're true And yet we know historically that they were in fact derivative from Gnosticism which

56:40

Honestly in its worldview is so far removed from both Christianity and Islam That makes it quite relevant from from my perspective, so I think

56:51

Gabriel saved Reynolds Minimally Get his most recent stuff and the bibliography would be rich with with material like that because I I think within the past year

57:05

I was reading a fascinating section that talked about one of the stories in the

57:13

Quran About the mountain coming down upon the people, you know, you know what I'm referring to and he had tied that together with an external source and Most that works not being done in Islamic countries

57:30

The the the analysis the source analysis of stuff in the in the Quran I think is perfectly fair game because it's fair game

57:39

For a Christian and now for the New Testament to be analyzed in its use of the

57:45

Old Testament or other sources now, it doesn't really use much in the way of other sources, but the point is it does derive so much of its material from the

57:57

Old Testament and so it's always been amongst Christian scholars something you deal with and How they use

58:04

Isaiah use these sources use the Septuagint versus the Hebrew Masoretic text That's all that's all completely fair game and that does not require secularism or an anti -supernaturalism or anything like that in the same way

58:18

In my book on the Quran, which I imagine you're probably familiar with You may recall

58:23

I dealt with the multiple places Where the

58:29

Quran makes reference to the Sodom and Gomorrah story And demonstrates

58:35

That the way in which the Sodom and Gomorrah story is related within the text of Quran Shows at least the original author the

58:42

Quran did not believe that Having exact wording was actually all that important because it tells the story and gives citations completely differently and I think that's vitally important because so much of the criticism that Muslims make for example of the

59:02

Synoptic Gospels is based upon the assumption that well, you'd have to have each gospel give the exact same words of Jesus But the

59:09

Quran doesn't do that. So are they being consistent at that point? That's another area there, so Yeah, that's probably the best

59:19

I can do I've taught my head here Great. Thank you very much much appreciated. Okay. Thank you, sir

59:26

God bless Okay, we've got I think three more here rich, okay

59:38

Daniel hello, Dan. Hey, can you hear me?

59:44

Yes, sir Hi, my name is Daniel evangelist. I live in Massachusetts sadly and I go to a reformed church here.

59:53

Yes, those those do exist in Massachusetts But um, I just wanted to say thank you.

59:59

First of all, I've been listening to you for five years I was saved in 2017 So you've been a big part in the shaping of what

01:00:06

I understand of Christianity and things of that nature So just wanted to thank you and say that but in regards to my question,

01:00:13

I'll be selfish with this one I'm 25. I'm married and I'm going to be father for the first time and I've been talking to some men at the church here and I'm going

01:00:23

I'm going to be speaking to some of them on a Normal occasion to kind of help me with what fatherhood is like So I kind of wanted to jump on here and ask if there is any advice that comes to your mind for a young father

01:00:36

Like me whatever it is. Um, I don't think there's enough advice that I couldn't take. I'm kind of open ears at this point

01:00:44

You know, I I've really wanted to get back to writing a book.

01:00:50

I started a while ago And I'm gonna try to try to find ways to do that. It's been a long time

01:00:56

But one thing I was gonna say is you'll you'll never see me writing a book on that subject on Nope, any of that stuff there?

01:01:05

Not only are there lots and lots of good books out there, but I don't claim any any expertise whatsoever

01:01:13

You could talk to my kids. You could especially talk to summer who has a very popular webcast and it's it's always been interesting to me to listen to her and to Actually both of my kids

01:01:29

Talking about what they specifically remember impacted them the most

01:01:36

From their childhood and their interactions with me and stuff So they they might actually be able to give you better stuff than I could but The The reality is you're going to be facing a very different Context than I did

01:01:57

I was 24 2324 when yeah 20

01:02:05

Yeah, right around there when my first child was born and it was a different world

01:02:13

There has been so much Change and I would say degradation in many ways

01:02:21

Since that time period that You're there's a there's a much greater need to communicate a

01:02:35

Christian worldview and any kind of worldview thinking to our children than there ever has been before and Thankfully, I was involved in apologetics and so my kids will tell you that I Did do worldview training with them and I did talk to them about You know,

01:02:54

I wrote a book while they were kids Called what's with the mutant in the microscope, which was on Intelligent design and They knew that I was a biology major in college.

01:03:08

And so I had dealt with issues like evolution and things like that but that that has only

01:03:15

Becomes so much more vital now Than it was at that particular point in time.

01:03:22

I don't know what kind of Governmental challenges and interferences

01:03:30

We will be dealing with I can't imagine That the socialist regime which is establishing itself in the

01:03:38

United States And I don't believe is going to let go of power no matter what happens

01:03:44

Yeah, what they're gonna do as far as homeschooling is concerned It does seem

01:03:49

Beyond question now. It wasn't when my kids were born, but it it does seem beyond question now that You've got to listen to voted

01:03:58

Malcolm and you can't send your kids off to be trained by Caesar and be surprised they come back as Romans and That's that's exactly what you're facing.

01:04:09

And so There's a lot of sacrifice on the part of you and your wife

01:04:15

Making do with a whole lot less than your neighbors might have so that you can invest that time in those in those children

01:04:23

But I don't see any other option facing us in this society today

01:04:30

Raising you're talking about raising a family in the context of us all seeking to be faithful in a culture under judgment and If if someone if you know when when my wife was pregnant with that first child

01:04:48

That would not have been what I was thinking about But that's where you have to be today really, and so I guess the only thing

01:04:57

I'll say because like I said, I'm I don't claim to be the the

01:05:04

The guy in this area, but I I remember When Kelly was pregnant with Josh My my dad

01:05:15

I Worked at the radio station. He was a manager of and I was recording music or something like that Recording commercial

01:05:23

I forget what it was, but he he came into the studio the second studio the auxiliary studio and I Asked him a really serious question.

01:05:36

I I There were lots of times growing up, especially as a teenager, you know, once you have your car and You're out doing stuff there's

01:05:49

There's lots of opportunities to get in trouble and to do things you shouldn't do that will have lifelong impact on you and I said every time

01:05:58

I was in a situation where I was in danger of doing something like that The main thing that kept me from ever doing anything like that Was I Could not imagine

01:06:14

Disappointing you and mom that way I Couldn't I could see what the look on your faces would be if I did the thing

01:06:24

I was contemplating doing or wanted to do or something like that and I couldn't do it.

01:06:29

I just And I said, how did you? How did you instill that in me?

01:06:35

How did you instill in me a? Really strong desire not to dishonor my parents now, obviously

01:06:44

That's very much connected to not dishonoring God But you know they are the the clearest most obvious expression of God's authority in a young person's life is your parents so You know,

01:07:01

I mean, I know I got spanked about three times as a kid maybe

01:07:07

And I deserved it I remember pretty much every one of them So what that wasn't a big a big thing our home was very peaceful so I Just wanted to know okay.

01:07:21

I'm gonna become a dad soon. I better learn how to do this and I think it's good that I didn't want to that.

01:07:29

I wanted to positively honor my parents I was class valedictorian, and I never got to be in high school all that Valedictorian my junior high school all that stuff

01:07:43

And in many ways I I wanted to make my parents proud in that way and so the negative side of that was

01:07:49

I didn't want to break their hearts by behaving in such a fashion as to bring honor and shame upon them or upon the name of Christ and And So I remember asking that question probably in in fewer words and I just I just went through it

01:08:08

My dad looked at me and going what why are you Oh Rich rich just raised the microphone.

01:08:16

So we're gonna get an addition here And I remember him looking at me and saying son. I have no idea.

01:08:24

I Knew that you were going to say that I've heard this story before and I can hear it in my head

01:08:30

Because I worked with him in the print shop our print shop and I can just hear

01:08:35

I can see that deadpan look on his face of Not even as much of a smirk

01:08:42

Just shaking his head looking at the ground and going son, I Have no idea

01:08:50

Just serious as I'll get I can still see him do say something like that Yeah, yeah now he then went on to say well look we we taught you from infancy to Follow the

01:09:04

Lord Jesus Christ and to honor him and and things like that but he said if what you're asking for is like a methodology of Of Specifically training a child to have that kind of attitude.

01:09:20

He said I think that's That's the work of God in a child's heart. That's the way that they that child has been made and I wish

01:09:29

I could tell you but your kids are gonna be different than you were So I can't give you the cookie cutter answer to something like that.

01:09:36

So cookie cutter answers Generally aren't gonna work super well one way or the other but yeah

01:09:45

Okay. Oh, yeah, of course. Thank you for that. Thank you. Okay, Daniel. Well blessings of the child,

01:09:51

I hope everything works out well there and and That's that you've got you've got a real real challenge ahead of you given the context we live right now

01:10:02

So, all right. Thank you Daniel real quick Jason Hello, Jason He's gone there is

01:10:14

Okay, Jason Hey, sorry, let me unmute. Yes, sir

01:10:21

Hey, so I'm talking to you before Well, I'm good friends with Alma all read and my question to you is giving the context today of the type of young Mormon elder versus the one that you encountered in the 80s and back then

01:10:44

What would be your advice on how to evangelize to the modern Elder that would come up to your door or you know that I would see in Salt Lake City when

01:10:54

I go to Salt Lake Yeah That's within the context of the you know, it's sort of prophetic the title of the the work that Gerald and Sandra did when they sort of translated

01:11:10

Mormonism shadow or reality into its moody publication the changing world of Mormonism because It is changing and it is changing fast and Right now, you know,

01:11:27

I would say we have to sort of keep an eye on what is developing in Salt Lake City because I Have a feeling some of the specifics would be addressing five years from now

01:11:39

Are different than what we'd be looking at now It's not that you're not going to encounter young Mormon elders still know

01:11:47

What Bruce R. McConkie taught or things like that? It's just that you you now are dealing with such a

01:11:59

Amplification of the inherent subjectivity of Mormonism we always had to deal with that.

01:12:07

That's that's why in letters to a Mormon elder as you know, you know whole chapter on Subjectivity the

01:12:13

Mormon testimony the need for objective truth, you know all the rest that kind of stuff But at least back in those days

01:12:20

When I would make an argument for the need of objective truth There was there was some connection there.

01:12:29

There would be some understanding on their part Man for almost everybody in our society now

01:12:37

Mormon or otherwise, that's no longer a given and so honestly,

01:12:42

I think I think one of the things would be helpful is I Did a program last night in here sort of Went completely wonky that the the camera stopped working and ended up having to use my phone camera

01:13:01

So and I set it here in front of the computer screen and that's how I did this webcast with Eli Ayala and Jason Lyle Really sharp guys great guys

01:13:13

Jason smartest man I've ever met and I mean that absolutely seriously and We were talking about general apologetics questions, but a lot of it went back to How you do apologetics today?

01:13:30

in answering the tough questions and providing an objective foundation for Christian truth claims and things like that and While Jason Lyle is best known as an astrophysicist

01:13:42

Nancy knows everything about the night sky everything about the Sun. That's what was PhD was in that kind of stuff

01:13:48

He is a presuppositional apologist. In fact, he said last night.

01:13:53

He has read everything Bonson wrote and Listened to everything that Apology at church has

01:14:03

Greg Bonds all of Greg Bonson's lectures I don't know how many thousands of hours that is but he says he's listened to all of them and I don't question him

01:14:10

I I I wish I had had that amount of time or I wish I hadn't wasted that amount of time.

01:14:16

Anyway One of the things that came up was dealing with this Subjective postmodern

01:14:25

Context that we deal with today and I think some of that presuppositional apologetics that we normally associate dealing with atheists

01:14:35

Is something that now I think will have more value in dealing with Mormons Because what it does is it gives you?

01:14:44

the ability to focus in upon what the point of contact is the point of contact with the Mormons isn't going to be a

01:14:52

Divine revelation in scriptures and arguing about those types of things you've got to get them to a more basic point before you can even get there now and That is to deal with them as a person made in the image of God and to demonstrate that their subjectivity is

01:15:09

Leads to an incoherent worldview and Now you can go from there. So then talk about how it's very clear

01:15:16

Mormonism is collapsing in the face of the changes in society when when the majority of the

01:15:26

Salt Lake City Council is LGBTQ today when there are LGBTQ organizations on BYU's campus

01:15:37

Everybody knows what that's going to mean only a few years down the road as far as the official teachings the

01:15:43

LDS Church are concerned so With that change taking place, that's a demonstration of the fact that internally

01:15:53

Mormonism has never been able to produce a coherent worldview because it does not have an understanding of a

01:15:59

God who actually exists a God who has Evolved to his position is not a

01:16:06

God that can give you an overarching Comprehensive truly consistent let alone biblical worldview.

01:16:12

So I have a feeling that that's going to be one of the areas we're going to be going unless there's something happens like I've said probably will and That is unless There is a split

01:16:26

There is a schism and there is a on the part of some portion of that church which would probably be a smaller portion of going back to the old ways of Really believing

01:16:41

That everything that Joseph Smith said was actually true rather than so many even of Mormons I've now talked over the past couple years.

01:16:49

Well, you know being a prophet doesn't mean that that don't know I don't you know the the the rock -ribbed

01:16:55

Mormonism of Joseph Fielding Smith The Joseph Smith was either a prophet divinely called popular ordained or he was the biggest fraud this world's ever seen

01:17:05

Okay, a lot of Mormons they're just really uncomfortable that kind of black -and -white thinking maybe there'll be a schism and while those groups will produce

01:17:13

Old style Mormonism again. I don't know. I have no way. Can I interject for just a second?

01:17:19

Sure So, yeah, I totally agree what you're saying. Um, I think if someone like a

01:17:28

Bend are was to rise to the top of the Mormon Church. He's more of the old -school type of McConkey type of Mormon, I don't think

01:17:42

I think oats is next in line and I think he has a little bit of a more liberal tendencies then

01:17:51

But if it goes if it gets to the point where someone like Benard comes it arises to the president of the church,

01:18:00

I Think he has a much more old -school Mormon View of Mormonism then

01:18:09

Somebody like oh and Nelson. Yeah, but here's the problem the the way that that Mormonism is set up right now

01:18:18

You're gonna have to be 95 years old before you become prophet and by the time you get to that age trying to trying to be a reformer trying to be a

01:18:27

Martin Luther trying to a Lot of people just can't do it anymore they they they they give into the system rather than try to change the system and Yeah, yeah

01:18:39

They end up They end up walking around doing air air handshakes with people all around them that there's there aren't there

01:18:46

We all know how that works because that's what's happening into our nation so, so I don't know

01:18:52

I Would what I would think is there'd have to be a schism There'd have to be a break have to be a split that would allow something like that to happen

01:19:01

But but but I don't know. I really don't know Well, I plan to go to the when they get done with the

01:19:08

Salt Lake Temple When they do the rededication, I plan to go there then and You know because they're gonna do another tour where you can tour it and everything

01:19:20

And I hope that's a good witnessing opportunity since there will be so many people

01:19:27

You coming for that event when that does a couple years down the road for now But and I'll probably go back to Salt Lake before then but every time

01:19:34

I go to Salt Lake I Go, you know down to Temple Square in and just try to engage and I have just found this

01:19:42

Like you said before you almost have to convert them to Mormonism to get them yeah, and so and in the sense,

01:19:51

I wish that I was Old enough back then in the 80s to deal with the type of Mormon like that because I think that's a lot more easy to deal with than this

01:20:02

So subjective. Well, you know like the thing where Smith has said the day that the priesthoods get the blacks get the priesthoods the day the church goes in the apostasy

01:20:12

Well, that might have been bringing young. That was bringing young but yeah Um You know, you know all these black and white statements back then is now just oh well

01:20:22

You know who really knows about polygamy who really knows about yeah you know polyandry and all this type of stuff and I do have some friends of mine who were who at the time when

01:20:34

I met them were elders and They seem to have a lot more deeper understanding than some of the the ones that I encounter today

01:20:43

Oh, yeah, so I think there I think there are a lot that I think there's an entire lost generation of Mormons that are going hey, where'd our church go and That's why

01:20:52

I say if if a charismatic leader came along. I think they'd They'd have a hard time dealing with them because there'd be a lot of people going

01:21:00

Hey, this is what we've been looking for. We don't know where you guys have been going But this is what we've believed all along.

01:21:06

So yeah, I think that's possible. I think it is Hey, we've got one more call to get to and we've gone way way way long

01:21:11

So I appreciate the call and we'll talk to you next time Okay Jaden, I think we already talked about this subject when

01:21:20

I only now Read down far enough to see Rich saying that maybe we could have taken you and Daniel together

01:21:26

But maybe there you have a slightly different spin on on the question Yeah, definitely a little bit different but similar.

01:21:35

How are you doing today? Good Thank you, thank you, it's a pleasure speaking to you just briefly my question is

01:21:43

I am 24 years old. I'm 25 in September. I am married have a family of four

01:21:49

We just had a me. My wife just had a newborn in April and I am finishing up my

01:21:56

Bachelors in biblical studies and I am also about to enter into pastoral ministry in our local congregation so essentially my question is

01:22:05

I Have been seeking to be faithful and I want to to be faithful in all the roles that It seems that God is you know

01:22:17

Opening doors for me to walk in But understanding that my primary ministry is my home

01:22:23

And so I just wanted to ask you I've been wanting to ask you for a while and just have been missing all the call in times that you had

01:22:30

What would be your advice be in regards to? Having The time necessary to study and to grow in the

01:22:40

Lord First and foremost to grow in our understanding of church history Secondly in doctrine study in that way, but also for leading a family while also doing pastoral ministry

01:22:52

I know you've been in a lot of those different kinds of roles and have had to do a lot of in -depth study

01:22:58

So I just wanted to ask you from your perspective. What kinds of things would you recommend? What kinds of things would you say to stay away from when it comes to?

01:23:06

Making sure you balance all of that at the kind of level of responsibility that you have had to deal with And I guess an add -on to that would just be how much is

01:23:20

In the marriage Something that is to be expected as far as hey, this is a sacrifice that we as a family have to make

01:23:30

As far as you know time to study while again also understanding the home is the primary ministry and not wanting to compromise that either

01:23:38

So I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that Does I just want to be faithful in that area?

01:23:45

Well, I appreciate your desire to be faithful in that area You're really young honestly

01:23:56

That My my I would actually have a concern when you say pastoral ministry. Do you mean on staff or do you mean as a

01:24:05

Senior pastor who would be preaching pretty much every Sunday So not senior pastor.

01:24:11

I'd be they're calling it a pastoral assistant. So basically the one of the I guess you would call the lead pastor, but first among equals on the elder board

01:24:20

He's been mentoring me and continues to mentor me so it's more like he's mentoring me to be able to write if God wills to Walk in that but it'd be probably

01:24:32

I'd be working with Something like Wednesday Bible studies or things along our focus is gonna be like evangelism and discipleship

01:24:40

So I'd be looking more like a small group development Stuff like that for now So yeah an entire church responsibility on me.

01:24:49

Yeah, and that that impacts things I mean, I know that that younger men can

01:24:59

Can bear those? Responsibilities of being you know, the primary bringer of the word and things like that and I realize that but There's there's something to the term elder

01:25:13

That speaks of experience speaks of You know some gray hairs here there and everywhere

01:25:22

You'll get them one way or the other trust me You know, there's a lot I could say here.

01:25:27

I the older I get the And I would think this would be true of most people but the the older I get

01:25:38

The more I can look back and go man. I wish I had done this that or the other thing I'm not one of those people that that goes.

01:25:46

Oh just do it the way I did it because I Know I I don't see that.

01:25:53

I was in a very very unique situation We were trying to do something really nobody else was doing and In a in a field that's fraught with challenges and While I always did have that commitment to the local church

01:26:13

And We never wanted to replace the local church

01:26:18

We never felt that that was our role to replace the local church or or anything along those lines whatsoever

01:26:27

The Apologetic nature of what I have been doing has always been

01:26:34

Even a part of my preaching and teaching, you know that that's always there so there's there's uniqueness in my experience that that makes me hesitant to Point to a lot of experiences that I've had that that that might be relevant, but as Far as you know, and for example, you say well, you know, how do you how do you manage time?

01:26:55

How do you prioritize things? I Simply hesitate not knowing you not knowing your family not knowing your situation because I I Hesitate to all you can do is give general statements and the problem is

01:27:15

When you've got newborns Newborns present different challenges both of mine were you know, my son especially was preemie didn't really have a whole lot of problems that other than financial problems paying for the the days and neonatal intensive care because we were poor as church mice, but You know,

01:27:38

I can think of others who have children who present Serious challenges to their time because those children require much more time than Well behaved children might or children don't have physical issues and things like that so every situation is is very very different and So I I really step back and go

01:28:00

Well, I'm not gonna say that I that I did it perfectly or anything like that at all

01:28:08

But I had a wife who believed in what we were seeking to do kids who understood that As a result, you know

01:28:21

Those kids went with me out to Mesa and things like that up to Salt Lake City my son did

01:28:29

Very formational experiences in their life as I mentioned last caller. I sought to inculcate

01:28:37

Christian worldview training in their lives But I've said that Just over the past 15 years

01:28:47

I've been exposed to I think a more balanced Understanding of The role the church and the family and and and that wasn't a part of my fundamentalist upbringing

01:29:02

That I wish I had had when I was younger it would have changed I think What some of my priorities would have been?

01:29:10

as far as the the time with family and What we were focused on and things like that.

01:29:16

So I guess I'll just say if you're being mentored and it sounds like you're in a situation where People mature

01:29:29

Believers in ministry are looking at you and are analyzing you Then they're the ones that I would ask those questions of much more than me because they are gonna be able to see your family relationships and things like that that I can't see and So I think their advice would be significantly more

01:29:51

Useful than anything that I could give outside of the few things that I've mentioned there So I appreciate you're sticking online all that time.

01:29:59

And if I had seen what Richard said that I could have Probably done a couple couple those things together, but thank you very much for that that phone call

01:30:11

Lord willing next week as I said we're gonna try to have

01:30:16

Jason Wallace on to talk about the chorus and Eastern Orthodoxy and Things along those lines and hopefully that will be very very interesting to you

01:30:25

Man stuff might happen between now and next week too that will require our comments and our analysis

01:30:32

And So anyway, I don't forget real quick. Don't forget the multi -layer cross the

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Isaiah line Bible the raffle at a omen org we have only 10 days left you to get your your raffle tickets for the

01:30:50

ESV creeds and confessions Isaiah line Jeffrey rice rebind and the multi -layer cross that Rich Pierre most famous Prescottonian Frenchman made himself and That that's gonna make it worth just Some someday on eBay,

01:31:10

I mean wow just right there, but Yes, go to a omen org and get your get your take