TiL- Exploring the Seeker Sensitive Church

Welcome to the Truth and Love podcast. We are glad to be back with you tonight. Tonight we're going to talk about the seeker -sensitive model, seeker -sensitive church model, seeker -sensitive local church, whatever comes up in that topic.

We want to look at that tonight from a biblical perspective. I hope you'll stick with us. What's up,

Dan? I don't know. I don't either. Our allergy season up here in the last week and a half has finally hit full stride.

I know a lot of our Southern listeners may say, hey, that was March and April.

For me, it was last week and especially over the weekend.

Oh, man, over the weekend, I barely even could get out of bed. I was itching, sneezing, coughing, hacking, sleeping through Benadryl and everything else.

I'm worn out from just breathing the air that's around here. It's amazing what comes with age, too, because before I never suffered with allergies.

But now, hey, when they come, they come to me, too. I've been battling seasonal allergies my whole life.

Wow. I remember as a kid just sitting in class sneezing like I need a new piece of paper.

I don't drift on this one. It was just a gross spring every year.

Wow. Well, we hope everybody else that's watching is doing well.

The comment line is open. Let us know that you're watching. Ask a question. If we can pray for you, let us know.

Let's let's get right to it tonight. We may not stay with it too long. We want to tackle this subject because I had a recent experience.

With the secret system model of the local church, and I know Dan has had an experience with that model as well, and I wanted to hear from him and get his perspective on the secret system model.

I was thinking about something that's been mulling through my mind, Dan. I heard it recently and it was.

This is just the way it speaking of things that come with age. I can't remember who it was. I know it was somebody that I respected and I was listening to this conversation and they were talking about how.

Their mode of operation is letting things go and more worrying about their ministry and what they're doing.

And I can understand that, you know, let God let God handle. Things in his way in his time and the misapplication, the misdirection, the going off the path that other people do, other churches do and worry about your ministry and where you're going.

And I can understand that. And and that has been weighing on me. So why?

Why talk about if you are not practicing the secret system church model, if you like, I just did a video yesterday.

Talking about Christian nationalism. You know, if if somebody disagrees with you, why?

Why talk about their differences? Why talk about somebody who is who has a different understanding?

And then they can go with any subject. Why not just worry about yourself, basically?

And part of my conclusion is I sympathize, of course, with that mindset.

There should be a focus on where you are, what you're doing, the world that God has you to reach.

Your local church, your family, all those have priority, of course. But there's also a sense of warning.

We we love God's church. We love the local church.

We love Christ's kingdom. And we don't want to see other people misguided.

We don't want to see other people led astray. And so I feel like there's room for having conversation of things that we see that may not be the best biblical practice.

How do you what do you think about those words? No, it's a.

Oh, it's a. Excuse me. We're we're we're live, folks.

It's no, there's there's a time it was after I forget who it was. It was

Spurgeon or Calvin or somebody like that said that a preacher should have two voices, one to call the sheep together and one to drive the wolves away.

There's some benefit in talking about things that are going on in Christianity that are wrong because it helps us to steer clear of them.

Obviously, you don't want to be imbalanced. You don't want to be harping on those things all the time because there's so much more to to the

Christian life than. Saying, well, this guy's screwing up and that guy's screwing up, you can get real, real curmudgeonly and angry and just bitter about stuff that you don't have to.

But at the same time, there's there's there's some good in looking at say, hey, this person's doing this wrong.

And here's why. Because usually I say usually it's not always, but usually that comes from a an overreaction or a pendulum swing from something else.

And so even if you're not involved in what's going on this way, perhaps you're more of the other persuasion.

You can watch out for what's going on on the backside. For instance, we talk about the secret sensitive movement where they're looking towards outreach,

I believe, in a way that that's unhealthy. The opposite of that is if you don't look at outreach at all, then you're clearly breaking the commands of Christ to go into the world and make disciples.

So there's a there's a pendulum on either side that you can watch out for. So, yeah, there's just some benefit to discussing these things just in a balanced way.

Yeah. And we care about people. Sure. And we care about our friends and our family that are maybe attending one of these churches or considering one of those churches or just flat out.

You're you're raising your children and you want to say, hey, look, you know, as you grow into adulthood, this is this.

These are the types of churches that are out there. And this is these are the good ones. These are the not so good ones.

And it's part of part of discipleship, part of training and part of loving and caring for your friends.

And another thing, too, Dan, is I think about. I think about all the things that I've learned when it comes to.

Soteriology, salvation and Calvinism and eschatology, all these things that I was so ignorant of growing up.

And that I learned along the way, I think it's highly possible that there are many people in a secret, sensitive church that do not know that they're in a secret, sensitive church.

And so part of it is. What is a secret, sensitive church and how do

I evaluate if I'm in one and what's the big deal if I'm in one? Then you talk about, well, what are the problems with the secret, sensitive church?

Because I'm sure and this I want to be very kind about the conversation that I had recently because I appreciated this gentleman very much.

And I want to make that clear in the conversation that he had with me. But he fully admitted that when

I asked him. What would you say to the accusation that you you have a secret, sensitive church?

And he said, well, I would fully embrace that. Not knowing, just assuming.

It's probably not on their website advertising themselves or it's not a proclamation or a part of their statement of faith that says, hey, we're a secret, sensitive church.

We embrace it and we want you to know about it. I'm sure that's probably not going on. The leadership may know that that's their model, that's what they're doing, but it's probably not part of their advertisements.

Probably not one of their here's our new members class. This is what you need to know about our church. We're a secret, sensitive church.

I would guess that that's not part of the curriculum. So that's why education information like this is important,

I think, to me. So. What's some what's some characteristics of a.

Secret, sensitive church, go ahead and define it for us. So from my understanding,

I would say the secret, sensitive church or secret, sensitive church, local church model would would be.

Where they have the mindset of it could be believers or unbelievers, but men and women, people are the seekers.

And so they are they are gearing what they do towards people. To to attract them.

To to come to their church, to faithfully come to their church. And so that all of the all the planning, all the processing is about those who are seeking and what they're seeking.

And so they're trying to model what they do after the seekers and what they are seeking.

And that would be people. As opposed to we would say, well, our

I don't know about all the songs, but what was the group's name? Was a big, big daddy weave or something?

I appreciated one of his songs many years ago. I think it was audience of one. Do you remember that song?

Nope. OK, I have to look. I have to look at my house.

That was a song that I that I appreciated from the contemporary Christian music back in the early the 90s or something like that.

Audience of one. But but I was thinking, hey, that's that's our mindset.

We we have an audience of one. We seek to please the Lord in what we do.

By allowing him to disciple us and teach us and let him show us what we want, submit and obey that and follow that model.

And leave the results up to him on who comes or who doesn't come. So so I guess what you're saying is it's kind of an overemphasis on outreach so that.

The outreach to the lost then drives and determines everything that the church does.

So I couldn't speak for. I mean, just in general, in general, I just wanted to be careful because I can't

I can't speak for every church model. But from my experience and what I've seen.

I'm sure I'm sure there is the when you when you talk about outreach, in my mind,

I'm hearing you say they are going out and reaching folks. But part of the secret system model in what

I've seen, Dan, is that part of the outreach is the service is the gathering.

And that's what that's what makes them so secret sensitive is that the whole kit and caboodle is geared toward.

Reaching out to what they're seeking, reaching out to the seekers and what they're seeking.

So what you're saying is that the the the worship service then becomes a weekly evangelistic outreach, almost like a weekly crusade to draw in new folks.

I mean, not that there's not no songs and not that there's not some teaching, but the general thrust, overall thrust of it would be we're going to do this.

So that way, new folks will see what we got, like it and stay.

Tell me what you think about this. I would say yes to your question that the service is evangelistic with a caveat.

What what do we mean or what am I seeing that I think they mean by evangelism? Who what is the good news to them?

What are what are they winning them to? What is so the service is geared toward outreach, wanting to draw them in, wanting to retain them, wanting to grow.

But since their their audience, their primary focus is doing whatever it takes to win people.

They've got to the the emphasis is on the people. And so the good news is, how can how can you how can

I apply this text to make you feel good, to make you feel better, to enhance your life?

What songs can we sing that make you feel good that are all about you? So, yes, it's evangelistic, but what's the good news?

For example, the the message that I heard was. From the

Bible. Full of scripture. But ultimately, if I could summarize it was,

I think

I think we were talking about Peter and I'm just recalling my reflection after I digest a little bit from the message.

So basically, to summarize. How can how can my life be better while I'm in the boat, basically?

And there's just a little little bit of truth in there to that you can't fuss too much.

There's some pointing to Jesus. But overall, if you're looking at the majority of what's taking place, it's it.

How can how can my life be better in the boat? When I when I'm in the boat, you know, the waves are rough.

How can my life be better? Take these these pointers, these steps and follow these things, and it will enhance your time on the boat.

Basically, that was the gist and the summary of the message. So I answer your question, yes, evangelistic, but with a caveat there, they're trying to win the people to themselves.

Yeah, well, I don't know if that's true all the time, but but I do think that that's that's where your danger comes in.

That because of because of the overemphasis on on reaching folks during the worship service, you run the risk of you run the risk of losing the gospel along the way.

Now, it doesn't always happen, doesn't happen in every every secret sense of the church. Now, I was I was heard the gospel.

Well, I heard the gospel from Mormons, but but that's a whole nother story. But the first church

I went to was a secret sensitive church, and they had an emphasis on reading the

Bible. I mean, their messages weren't incredibly deep, but they were they were there to to try to encourage folks to to look at the

Bible, to look to Christ. It was. It wasn't necessarily.

I wouldn't say that. Now, there was some stuff I highly disagree with, but but it wasn't necessarily bad, but it just was kind of.

Because because it was always pointed at those who who had little to no knowledge, there was almost no opportunity for growth.

Now, you've got that. You've got the will say anything to get you to stay in the door, including losing the gospel.

And then you've got those who probably do it really well, who have so tuned in on what they're doing, where they're actually just being hospitable and nice and preaching the gospel.

And they're actually probably doing a really good job of it. But, yeah,

I think that's where the danger is. The danger is becoming so driven for for results that you you lose your way along the way.

Yeah. Another danger that I see, Dan, is. And it's it's camouflages and it's hard to see, especially if you're in it.

It's hard to see, of course. Hard to see the things in your own life.

Unless they're exposed. But I'm sure it's hard to see it this way when you're when you're looking at a certain definition.

But legalism. There becomes a form of legalism. Now, when we hear the word legalism, we think about the this church is legalistic.

They want you to dress a certain way. They want you to not do this and not do this and not do this.

So that church, those people are legalistic. The way the secret system church model can be legalistic is if you if you look at all the programs they have.

I mean, there are there are things going on, it seems like 24 seven.

And there is a program for every single niche, every every single age group, every single thing that you can think of.

They have a program going on all the time. And you. There's a sense of.

Necessity that you have to have all these programs for all these people's niches and all these different age groups and the leaders have to be involved constantly in all these programs.

So it's heaping on this this burden. We we've got to do this. And you've heard the old saying, what you win them with is what you've won them to.

And so you've got to keep that up. And then when that's, you know, when they get bored with that or when that's old news, you've got to come up with something new to win them with and then you've won them for that.

And so I think that's why they have so many programs and so many things going on is so that there's a variety.

It offers a variety. Therefore, things don't get old and boring. Well, it kind of plays into the mindset of Americans, especially that we are consumers who have.

Right. We have the. We we have the opportunity to go out and get what we want out of something.

So I like this. I like that. I like this. This checks out the boxes. So I'll go there when church isn't necessarily supposed to be about that.

Unless your boxes are coming from directly from Scripture. Yeah, so it kind of it plays into our consumerist nature that, hey, this.

This serves a felt need in my life, so it must be good instead of looking to Scripture. Now, like I said before,

I hate to paint them all with a with a broad brush because you've got some who will stick real close to the

Scripture, who will do a good job. But they've just they've maybe emphasized something a little stronger than I would.

Then you've got those who've gone off the rails. And so the danger is.

Those folks who go off the rails, because a lot of times it looks a little bit like somebody who may be doing it well, but then you get in there and realize, man, there is no depth here and I don't even really know what the gospel is.

And I've been going to this church for five years. So let me ask you this.

When it comes to the secret sensitive church model, I have never sought out to.

Or had the desire to. Take my family to a secret sensitive church.

I feel like I've. In my mind, it's it's not the way the

Scripture teaches that we should do church. So. Is it OK to have this model out there?

I mean, you'll hear you'll hear the feedback, you'll hear the the arguments against what we're saying.

What's wrong with what we're doing? Why can't we have, you know, whatever kind of music that we want, the kind of teaching that, you know, what's wrong with what we're doing?

So should should we draw the line and say. The secret sensitive church model is not the way to go.

And then what we also I think we need to talk about the alternative. But should should we draw a line and say.

Loved one. We would encourage you not to attend a secret sensitive church church leader.

We think that you need to rethink this church model. What do you say to that? It really all boils down to a.

To the emphasis. Because I wouldn't say that that it's always.

Wrong if there's also equal emphasis being put on discipleship of those you do reach.

As long as there is a growth that's able to take place, you know, a leading in worship that is leading towards something.

And that's the real issue that you find with most secret sensitive churches is that they they miss that next step, that discipleship step that that, hey, look.

We we have these programs and we want you to to bring your kids and we understand that maybe you don't feel up to the task of.

Of leading something leading your family yet because you are new in the faith yourself or whatever.

But there needs to be that that next step where, you know, OK, we've we've reached these folks.

So now what do we do with them? So, I don't know, because it's what the reason why

I said, I don't know, is because I'm afraid that there could be a solid church out there who looks like a secret sensitive church.

And then somebody listening to us and say, well, hey, what about my church? My church isn't bad. It's not doing anything wrong.

And it is possible. But also,

I would have to be on a case by case basis. OK, there's there's plenty of them out there where you're going to you're going to you're going to know it because a lot of times it'd be just a week or two listening to the messages.

You're going to hear something heretical. Yeah. Where you're going to hear something that's just completely off base or the focus is going to be way off of Christ.

So I take it on a case by case basis, but there's I believe there's more scriptural models out there.

So it's something that was said at my friend's ordination is that and this is something that us reform

Presbyterians especially need to take into into account. There's a lot of people know what reform

Presbyterians are not for more than what we are for, because we have our distinct is no exclusive psalmody.

We don't use instruments of worship and we know we're strong Calvinist and we believe in the meditatorial kingship.

And, you know, everybody else is wrong. We're Scottish and we're going to prove our prove our might.

But there needs to be a balance there. And I forgot where I started that that sentence, but there needs to be a balance where where the positive things are are sought out and taught.

Because when you go and you look for the counterfeit, you don't look at the counterfeit. You look at the reality to see, you know, what is right and then you can judge the counterfeit by that.

So I get I don't know, was your question start off with. Well, I was just worried about or not worried, but thinking about where to draw the line.

So we draw a line and say secret sensitive, never look for a more biblical model.

Yeah, I'd be I'd be I'd be worried about a secret sensitive model because the the abuse of that model has been so widespread that it's generally not a good thing.

Yeah, but I also don't want to, you know, broad brush, you know, good churches out there who are doing things differently than I am or than I would.

You know what I'm saying? But generally speaking, you find a lot of wonky stuff going on in secret sensitive churches.

Yeah, I mean, I think you're close to where I am, but I still lean a little more to the concern stage to where I agree with you where you say and we need to do that with individuals need to do it with churches case by case basis.

Hope all things, as scripture says, and speak to the past, you know, see what's going on for yourself, not make a judgment based on the outside of, you know, the name of the church, because you can do that.

I do that every time I drive by a strip mall and there's there's a church with a certain kind of name.

In a coffee shop, in a strip mall, or they or they bought the whole strip mall and they have a certain type of name in my mind,

I think secret sensitive church. I know what's going on there, but I have to step back and be careful because I don't know the leadership.

I don't know what's going on. But on the other hand, there's a pretty good chance.

Pretty good chance. My assumptions are kind of on target. Yeah. So, yeah,

I think I think I agree with you there. Yeah. My first if somebody asked me about a particular church, and I understand that it's probably a secret sensitive, we really need to look into this one.

There's a lot of danger here. And there's a Presbyterian church right around the corner.

That would be much better for you. Well, the analogy that I was thinking of,

Dan, was I hope it's not too crude of an analogy. But if you want to if you enjoy a bowl of M &M's when it comes to the secret sensitive model,

I think there's too much there. There's too much dog food in the bowl of M &M's to enjoy the

M &M's. Do what? Because you can't enjoy the

Skittles because it takes too much. It's too hard to dig through the dog food to get to find your your mix of Skittles in the

M &M's together. You got that wonderful chocolate goodness. Well, all of a sudden you hit a hard spot on your tooth.

It's a little bit sour. I don't know if I could handle that. I'm not a mixing kind of guy.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You go you go through thinking that you're going to get one thing and you get another. It can it can throw you for a loop.

Same thing with picking a church. You go into one thinking, hey, this is going to be one of those good ones. And then you bite into something sour.

You can set your teeth on edge for a long time for for going to a church like that.

Yeah, I mean, but that's that's any any church, really? And you walk into one church that says

Baptist on the front of it and have some weird snake handling folks doing some weird stuff.

All of a sudden, you know, I don't want to walk into another Baptist church again. Right. And we have you.

I think you're exactly right. You know, we want to want to evaluate and we want to we want to be taking our family to.

The church that reflects scripture the most, and we should not just evaluate the secret sensitive church, but evaluate the churches that we're interested in and evaluate our list.

What kind of church am I looking for? What kind of church should I be looking for?

Do I have a secret sensitive list or I mean, I can't this kind of come up when we were talking about.

Children, children's church or children's in church, the labor's podcast episode that we did, and I can't count how many times

I've heard people say I'm new to this community. I'm looking for a good church.

I have such and such age children who has a good children's program.

Should that be on the list of what your your your first things on a list when you're looking for a good church?

I'll tell you what, that particular one is a. Usually a a fantastically misguided question, because you do want to make sure that they have something for your kids.

Explain. Not always a program. I want to make sure that they are. They're going to to take care of and pastor your children in a way that is is done correctly.

I'll say through baptism and catechesis, but that's just me.

But but but that's the thing. If you come into to a church and they're they're not.

It's a great it's a great question to ask, because a lot of times when people say, is there something for my kids here? They're thinking program.

That's right. What they need to think, is there something for my kids here? Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Right. And I don't know. I think that because I think the some of the long term effects of the secret sense of church model has been that there hasn't been a lot of discipleship in America.

There's a lot of biblical literacy. And so people don't know to ask the right questions. They don't they don't know enough.

To be able to. They only know what's been in front of them.

I mean, there's a there's a ignorance thing, you know, all across Christianity today.

I mean, even in in parts of America that aren't Christian, people just don't know what

Christians believe anymore. Yeah, that's right. Whether they're in the church or outside of the church.

And to be a place that's not going to teach what they believe, that's that's an issue.

Right. Well, let's think about it practically, Dan. I want to be in a church where I'm not catered to.

Because that's not happening in real life. I want

I want to be in a church that's following God's model in Scripture. And that's not always following my preferences.

I may need if I'm in a church where I'm I'm hearing the word exposited.

I'm hearing gospel center, God glorifying songs. I'm I'm in I'm in a fellowship where there there is discipleship.

There's a desire for discipleship. There's fellowship. There's you know, there's always there's prayer.

There's. You there's people taking care of, you know, all these biblical things, these things are happening.

My preferences oftentimes take a back seat. I I put others before myself.

Because that's what happens in the real world. That's what happens in marriage. That's what happens in the home. That's what happens in your workplace when you're out having, you know, fun with your friends and family, wherever you are, any other place.

Nobody else is catering to your preferences. Yeah, yeah. The Bible even says that it says do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.

But in how's it go? Ends up saying value others above yourself.

That's right. And how do you learn that when you're when you're in a setting that everything is catered to you and how to make your life better?

Yeah. Then you begin to think, well, my husband or my wife, they they're here to make my life better.

My children are here to make my life better. And when it doesn't work out that way, then you're all to sorts. Yeah. Lead or help lead the programs that are there.

And the reason why that got reason why that's an issue, not that that's a bad thing.

It's not. You should be brought up to help along, be helped along the way to be plugged in, to do something, to do your part.

But you almost become like a cog in a machine that feeds a service.

And then, say, one day you don't feel like you fit anymore. Know what, then you've built everything up in the church over.

Well, they reached me. Now I'm going to reach others. But I don't have a I don't fit here.

There's somebody with more skills than me that's doing this or somebody who's been here longer that's doing that.

No, I don't fit in anywhere. So maybe maybe this church thing, this isn't for me.

Which I mean, that may be more of a large church problem than a secret sensitive problem.

I mean, I can see it happening. That respect. But if all you're doing is trying to feed towards that Sunday morning outreach service.

You don't you don't necessarily get to grow in love with the

God that you were saved to know and love. Now, you got great service and attitude towards service, and that's fantastic.

But if you if you never grow in relationship with your God, then. Sad. One other characteristic that I just thought of when it comes to the secret system model is the leadership.

Now, in our circles, we we lean towards.

From scripture, what we glean from scripture is that we should have in our local church, a an elder plurality of elders.

And sometimes that's understood as elder led. Which still leaves room open for little congregationalism where the congregation has some say.

And you go with the other model where it's elder ruled. Right.

So the congregation has less say. And it's the it's the group of elders that that pretty much guide the direction, the spiritual direction of the church.

But with the secret sensitive model, they may say they have a team of pastors, a board of elders.

But when you look closely. They have one main guy.

It's the pastor of vision, casting and teaching. That's right. And you can't you can't question him.

No, but nobody else. The congregation, they just don't really know what they need.

They don't know what God wants. And and it's and it's hard to recognize this because these folks are usually.

Very charismatic in their. Personality, I'll say.

Not not spiritually, not not in the Pentecostal church, but sometimes.

But in their personality, they're charismatic, they're magnetic. So everybody's drawn to them. And so there's there's really no sense of why would

I even question this person? Because I want to follow this person. God is speaking of this person.

And so but there's typically the one person. Kind of in charge.

Yeah, I don't know. That sounds like a lot of Baptist churches, too. It does.

Especially. That a number of times I heard touch not the Lord's anointed growing up.

You just don't. I mean, there's one thing you don't just sit there talking smack about your pastor.

Yeah, that that can be abused where you get one one guy who's a pastor.

He's got some deacons, but what do they really do? No, no, you're right. That is a critique of the

Baptist church, the Southern Baptist church. That's one of the things that was mentioned earlier that I was awakened to about things that characteristics of a biblically healthy church.

What are they? And one of them is a plurality of elders. What? Where did this come from?

Well, it's always been there. But what I was accustomed to, what most most of us were accustomed to was they called it a congregational church.

But there was the single pastor model with a plurality or a board of deacons. And that was the model.

And that was the only model that you thought ever existed. But once you began to to research and learn, hey, this is a biblical concept, plurality of elders, body of deacons.

And you start looking back at your church history. I mean, that's what in my opinion,

I could be wrong. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. But. Tom Askell, who's a

Southern Baptist, what is his ministry called? His ministry is called Founders. Why?

Because our founders of the Southern Baptist Convention did not have these models.

The founders of the Southern Baptist Convention, a lot of them. And I think our first our first Baptist Association in Charleston, South Carolina, they were

Calvinistic. Even the Southern Baptist. There's a chance

I could be wrong. But if you're listening, you go to the Southern Baptist Church. If you can find the history of the church minutes, go back years, 1800s, look back at your church history.

You may find a period of time where. You will see that they had more than one pastor serving at that church.

I was shocked when I saw that. I've been in some churches that I've served in and they and I appreciate that they do this.

They would have a picture of all their pastors lined up on the wall and it would go back to the 1800s.

And when you went back that far in those line of pictures, you would see the dates.

And many of those dates overlap back in the day. Where they had a plurality of elders that had multiple pastors serving at one time.

Nowadays, in my generation, that that was absent.

That was gone unheard of. Like it never existed. Unless you're big enough to have a youth pastor.

Yeah. Yeah. But even then, that youth pastor was usually.

He was working underneath the other pastor. We had summer youth directors.

Good way to put women in ministry. Oh, my goodness.

So I didn't mean to spice it up right towards the end. It was a good way to spice it up.

I don't think I've got that cracked up on a podcast yet. So I'm going to calm myself, get myself collected.

That was pretty good. But I agree with you. As a matter of fact, you were reading my mind, but we don't believe in that.

I think that's pretty much all the questions that I wanted to tackle. I would say in closing,

Dan, from my perspective, be reasonable.

Don't be too easily offended. Don't be too easily defensive.

And I would say the same thing for myself. Where's the critique?

And hopefully, you know, as an elder, hopefully I am. I am doing that as as an elder already.

And as a board of elders, I'm wanting them to critique me. We are critiquing how we should be leading the church, according to Scripture.

And if you know, we're hearing as elders, we're hearing critiques and suggestions of all the time.

And, you know, if you're a pastor, you know, this is true. You're hearing suggestions all the time from the congregation.

And so we're just Dan and I are just, you know, two voices that. We don't have a wide audience, but we love the

Lord. And we love the people that we know. We love the people of our community.

And we want to see God's word reflected in how we do church.

And so we would say, if you listen to this, if you are so desired to share this with someone that, you know, goes to a secret sensitive church or someone that you would like to evaluate the secret sensitive church model.

We appreciate our brothers and sisters. And we appreciate those who serve the

Lord, that are evangelizing, that, you know, the heart for Christ that we see in people, we appreciate that.

We are just concerned that the secret sensitive model puts too much emphasis on the individual.

The individual, as we discussed, the individual pastor as the vision caster leader, you know, holding too much power, too much sway.

The service, the programs, everything is revolved around the individual.

And we would hope that this model will be evaluated and maybe set to the side.

And we take some time to look at scripture. Dan, let me ask you this question, and then you can give your final thoughts.

Why is it so important to glean from scripture and do church?

Have our local church model reflect what we see in scripture? Why is that so important?

It's important because God has set up the ways in which he wishes to be worshiped. He's set up his church.

He's the king of his church. He holds all authority in heaven and on earth.

So if he has all authority, which he does, and he is in charge of everything, he is truly the head of the church and he gets to determine what it looks like, its function and its emphasis.

And so we need to take everything we do, look at the word of God and see what we're doing and how it lines up.

Really, if a better way would be to look at the word of God and then start things, not to go back and evaluate later, but to start there first.

And that's why it's important because Christ is king, because he is truly

God, creator of all. And if we do church wrong, we're not doing justice to the one who has revealed himself to us through his son and especially through the scriptures.

Scripture tells us that Jesus is, he says of himself, I'm the way, the truth and the life.

No one comes to the father, but by me. And of course, and rightly so, we apply that to salvation, justification, getting, quote, getting to heaven, being saved.

We rightly apply that passage to that. But however, to get to the father, in other words, to glorify him, to please him, we must go through Christ who has authority in heaven and on earth, as Dan said.

He's the king of kings and lord of lords. And how do we do things? We do things according to the king and how he would have us do those things.

And not our own preferences, not our own agenda, not our own visions.

And if you want a vision, go to scripture. If you want to know how

God wants you to do things, go to scripture. And so we would just encourage everybody, go to where God speaks and that's his word.

And speaking of Jesus being the only way, he is the only way. And we call all those who have not bent the knee.

And by bending the knee, all we're simply saying is you are recognizing that Jesus is right,

I am wrong. He is holy and just and I'm a sinner. I've broken his laws,

I've broken his command. And to bend the knee says I'm a sinner,

I'm lost and I'm undone, I'm hopeless and helpless because of my sin.

Because I stand before God under his wrath and I justly deserve it.

And so we call on, just as Dan and I once were, rebels against the king.

We shook our fists at the king, we were enemies to the king. But yet the king has such loving kindness, he came to this earth to dwell among his creation.

He lived a life that we couldn't live and he became our substitute to take our place under God's wrath.

And he took God's wrath so that those who would repent of their sins and put their faith in him would not have to receive that wrath.

And he calls on all men everywhere to repent of their sins and put their faith and trust in him to save them.

Because he is the only way, he is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but by him. And apart from him, we can do nothing.

So our call is to us, strive for Christ.

For those who are still in rebellion, who are, if you are lost, you're not saved, repent and believe the gospel.

Dan, would you close us in prayer? Yep. Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for this evening, for giving us a chance to talk over these things.

We just pray that we would, while we critique others, would not leave ourselves unexamined.

We would try ourselves against your word and find you to be sufficient for us.

In Christ's name we pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you, brother. Thank you guys for watching. We really appreciate it.

Remember that Jesus is King. Go live in the victory of Christ. Go speak with the authority of Christ.