August 11, 2017 Show with C. Matthew McMahon on “The Worthy Churchman, or the Faithful Minister of Jesus Christ”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 11th day of August 2017, and I'm delighted to have back on the program

Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, who is founder of A Puritan's Mind, and he's going to be addressing today

The Worthy Churchman or The Faithful Minister of Jesus Christ, and this is a book that was written by John Jackson who lived in the 17th century, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

C. Matthew McMahon. Thank you, Chris. Happy to be here. Look forward to discussing the topic of The Faithful Minister.

Amen, and in studio with me is my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor. Hello, it's good to be here for that conversation.

And let me right away give our listeners our email address if you have a question for Dr.

C. Matthew McMahon on this subject. Our email address is ChrisArntzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArntzen at gmail .com. That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com,

and please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. And you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter, perhaps for some reason you're complaining in some way about the pastor of the church where you are a member or something, perhaps you have a strong disagreement with your pastor on theology or a doctrine or practice or something else.

I understand that that would give rise to your wanting to remain anonymous. But other than that, other than a private and personal matter, please just give us your first name, city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. And as I was mentioning to you, Dr. McMahon, off the air, there is something explosive happening in regard to the expansion of Iron Sharpens Iron's audience.

We're getting contacted sometimes on the air and many times off the air every day by listeners who are new to the program, who have never heard of it until recently, who have fallen in love with it.

So there's going to be a lot of folks perhaps listening that have never heard you on this program and may not yet be familiar with a

Puritan's Mind. So why don't you share a bit about a Puritan's Mind with our listeners? Well the whole idea behind what

APM was about was taking what was a blessing to me and sharing it with others.

Back in 1997 or so, I had already begun reading all sorts of Puritan works that were being put out by Soledad Gloria and Banner of Truth and such, and certain ones became great sanctifying blessings to me.

And in thinking about that, this newfangled thing began called the Internet.

And I thought, you know, the Internet would be a really great place, an instantaneous global network to put out really good information about Christ, about theology, about the

Puritans. So I wanted to come away with the same kind of mind that men like Jeremiah Burroughs and Christopher Love and Francis Turton and William Ames and some of these others that I was reading,

I wanted to have the same kind of mind that they had about Christ. And so I thought, well,

Puritan's Mind, that's kind of catchy, so let's take that and we'll post some excerpts of their writings and see if we can get people interested in it.

And so Christopher Love and William Ames and Francis Turton were the first three that I started posting, and that basically just snowballed into what it is today.

So over the past 20 years or so, we have thousands of pages, hundreds of Puritans, whole books online there for free.

That, in turn, got me thinking about what kind of people will read what it is that we're putting out, because generally what we would do is take the actual information itself, the actual page, and basically put those excerpts out there.

That means that people were reading things in Old English sometimes, depending upon the

Puritan, William Perkins, Nicholas Byfield, and some of them. They were earlier, a little bit more difficult to read, so naturally out of a

Puritan's Mind and what we were doing there emerged Puritan publications, which we decided to take works that hadn't been published before and not only publish them, but make them easily readable.

And so we would update them in Modern English, and we have about 230 works right now that we've published, and most of them have been from Westminster, of which

John Jackson is one of those Westminster Assembly Divines, and we can talk a little bit about what that means, but that's basically the idea of what a

Puritan's Mind kind of came about in that way. I wanted to be able to read those

Puritans, share that with others, and have others as excited as I was about really getting into some of the most helpful doctrine and helpful treatises and practical application that could possibly be.

Well, the Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say. I just, I can hear through, obviously not literally through my headphones, but I can just hear a lot of the listeners thinking to themselves right now, are you kidding?

Why would we want to read the Puritans? Aren't they those starchy, boring, old -fashioned people that nobody remembers?

Right? Yeah, people tend to get dissuaded from reading them for a couple of reasons.

One, the world constantly barrages the church with the whole idea of the

Puritans being this stoic group that dressed in black that didn't have any fun and such.

Even brutally cruel. Brutally cruel, yes. The Salem witch trials are always brought up and such, yet, because they really aren't understanding the history of Puritanism and some of the separations that occurred within the church in that way.

For example, when we run to the Salem witch trials, well, that wasn't the Puritans. Those were the pilgrims who came over from England and separated themselves from the

Church of England because they didn't think that the Church of England could be dissuaded from being changed or sanctified or purified, which is where the

Puritans got their name, Puritans, from. But the Puritans stayed in England, and they wanted to change the

Church for the better, and as a result, they basically took the doctrine of the

Reformation, Talvin, Beza, Puritan, and they took all of that doctrine, and they said, let's now take that and let's apply it to absolutely every area of life of the

Christian walk that we possibly can. So that's what they did. And so when you read them, you find not only their depth in which they stand squarely on the shoulders of the

Reformation, but also their practical application. And that was one of the things that made for a faithful minister in that particular manner.

Not that it just told you what Scripture said or what the doctrine was that was being taught in a particular text, but when they preached, they were eminent in taking that and applying it into your heart.

And as Baxter said, the minister is supposed to screw truth into men's minds, crawling in the back of their head and depositing the truth of God there, placing it in their heart.

You know, preaching for them was not only to the ears, it was to the mind, it was to the heart, it was to the conscience, and they had a very particular way about doing that, which

I think, in great measure, we have pushed that off to the side today.

It's one of the things John Jackson in this work that we're going to talk about points to, that we need to make sure that the faithful minister not only understands the

Word itself, not only understands what the intent of the Holy Spirit is in the

Word, in whatever it is that he's teaching or preaching, but also that he takes it and applies it to the life of the people. The Puritans were eminent in that way.

Not that they were making people sad, they were the most joyful people on the planet. If we understand,

I mean, how can you be joyful? What does it mean to be joyful in the

Lord, rejoicing always? Well, the more that we understand the

Lord Jesus, the more that we understand Scripture, the more that we understand how sanctification occurs, then the closer that we're going to be to the

Lord. So, where do we find the best expositions of the Bible? We're going to look in those places.

We're going to look in the writings of Augustine, which all of the Reformers stood on in many respects.

When you read Calvin's Institute, it's almost like you're just reading Augustine, and when you read Augustine, you think that he was around in the 16th century.

And then when you read the Puritans, they take all of that good meat, and they say, here is how all of that applies to you specifically.

So, as much as the world wants to disparage the Puritans, and much as the world wants to take and kind of place that evil eye on them, they were the opposite of that.

The English Puritans were nowhere in that zone. And we find that those taking that particular theology, taking all of that practical application and such, integrating that into their own ministry, there are various other men in the history of the

Church, even if we come here to America and think about how it worked out for America, men like Jonathan Edwards.

Edwards was not a Puritan. He was Puritanesque. He had much of the same doctrine as the

Puritans, and if you read his sermon, they are set up in the same way that you would read any of the other

Puritans, Bridges, or Owens, or Brooks, or what have you, Sibbes, and you'll see that they're going to take the text, and they're going to explain and expound it.

Then he's going to pull a doctrine from the text and teach you what that doctrine means, and then he's going to apply it specifically to you.

Which, after years of doing that, the Lord, for us here in America, chose that Jonathan Edwards would be utilized as one of the sparks for the

Great Awakening. And so, faithful ministers, worthy churchmen in that way, again, we're kind of focusing a little bit on the minister himself, but they're going to want to preach the best, in the best way, and expound the

Scriptures in the best way. Where are they going to look? They're going to look to the Reformation, they're going to look to the

Puritans in that way, because they were masters at it. Yes, you are actually one of the few that I've spoken with who has a thorough knowledge of the

Puritans, that actually does draw a sharp distinction between Puritans in England and Christians here in the

United States, or in America, I should say, who were here even prior to what became the

United States of America. Sure. Yeah. Like, for instance, I've heard

Jonathan Edwards being referred to as the last Puritan, and I've heard that those

Christians in New England, in Massachusetts, had set up what was very near to be a

Puritan theocracy in that area. So these immigrants from England to the

United States that were Congregationalists in adherence to the Savoy Declaration and so on, that many of the current -day

Congregationalist churches who are apostate, could actually nonetheless trace their roots back to these

Puritans and somehow obviously veered very sharply off the track there of biblical teaching into heresy and apostasy.

But were the ancestors of those who are in Congregationalist churches, especially in New England, were they not properly called

Puritans? Or you seem to have a different idea on that. Well, no. They began first to be called

Precisionists, and they were Precisionists because they were precise with the way that they taught and preached.

That's where they got the nickname from. So before they were ever called Puritans, they were known as those who were precise in their doctrine, preaching, and in their lives.

But yes, a little after that, the idea of the

Puritan came about being those ones who wanted to take and purify the

Church, to sanctify the Church. Thomas Cartwright, around 1570, he was ejected from his teaching post at Cambridge because he criticized the

Church of England and its liturgy and its government, and he called what they were doing, pretended purity.

He says, and I quote, but alas, we have too much reason to complain that Christian religion is fallen from its primitive purity.

And so after that, they started calling these gentlemen Puritans.

But when you look at Puritanism in and of itself, if you want to give, like, formal dates for it, it's around the late 1550s up and through around the middle of the 1660s where the

Act of Uniformity was ultimately passed, and the Church of England booted out 2 ,000 ministers out of their pulpits because they would not conform to what they wanted in their liturgy and such.

So, yeah, I mean, Edwards was Puritan -esque, but he didn't live in England, but he followed most of what the

Puritans had taught in many doctrines, and even the logical order of the way that he preached and taught, as you can see from reading any of his sermons or his works, it was very

Puritan -esque in that way. So the precisionist was a really important term for them in the beginning because it was something in which they were sharply defining, sharply stated, and that's what they were known for.

They were logicians while at the same time taking logic and such and making that subservient to Scripture, and yet at the same time utilizing that knowing that you have to be able to think well in order to preach well and study well and such, and basically took, as I said, all of that doctrine that had been recovered by the

Reformation in the Gospel and applied that diligent thought to it and caused it to be some of the greatest preaching that you find in the history of the

Christian church. We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says,

I heard you just mention moments ago that the

Puritans were not the ones responsible for the execution of the witches in Salem, Massachusetts, but I have heard that in England there have been hundreds if not thousands times more witches or alleged witches burned there, and I was wondering who were the perpetrators of those executions?

Were they Puritans or were they clergymen in the Church of England? For me, in terms of understanding the historicity of that,

I have not dealt so squarely with it to uncover all of the names and such, but when you start, if you look at any of the good, what

I'm going to call good Puritans, I mean, if you look at Owen and Sibbes and Brooks and Burroughs and any of these guys on the

Westminster Assembly, none of them had a...they didn't have time to dawdle in such things.

They weren't thinking in that particular way to go around persecuting people. The whole idea, for example, of the

Westminster Assembly, they were engaged in putting together what right worship was going to be for Scotland, England, and Ireland, and they were called by Parliament to do that specifically because they needed uniformity in religion.

So, in terms of who may have persecuted people before then, or maybe the turn of the

Reformation up to the start of Puritanism, I don't really know who those people are, because they're none of the good people that I read.

It's not going to be, you know, William Ames and Christopher Love and such. So, I think that's one of the problems that people have, is they get this kind of fall -off idea that suddenly, when you say the word, that must mean all of them were like that, as much as to say, well,

I know a minister that fell scandalously in a variety of ways from his church and pulpit, so all ministers must be just like that.

Well, that's just silliness to think of it that way. Again, when you're at least...you

don't even have to be widely read. You can just be moderately read, or even just pick a few of, for example,

Banner of Truth's Puritan paperbacks and read a few of those books. You'd be like,

I mean, you would not find any of those disparagements in any of those works in any of the writings of any of those men.

So, I'm sticking to reading and studying and looking at the best

Puritans, of which most of them are pretty well known to us. Now, earlier in the program, when we first began, you alluded to the

Westminster Divines and said that you could elaborate on those men of God. If you could, just to give our listeners more context of where we're coming from, why don't you just give a little summary of the

Westminster Divines? Sure, sure. The Westminster Assembly of Divines, they received their name from the church at Westminster Abbey, situated in the

Western District of London. And the assembly utilized that church up until about 1652, five years actually past the time that they actually finished the standards which they were appointed to set in order.

So, you had a group of these men come together. They chose out a number of different kinds of ministers,

Independents, Presbyterians, even Erastians. They came together to set down, for God's glory, a unified understanding of practice based on solid exposition and doctrine.

They ultimately, once they began to come together to invite the Scottish commissioners to come over, and so they invited men like Alexander Henderson and George Gillespie and Samuel Rutherford.

And the Scottish came over, keeping it brief for you, because there's a lot of history that's involved here.

The Scottish commissioners were like, listen, if we're going to come over and we're going to do this with you, then we need to place together a solemn league and covenant.

Because it would be really silly for us to sit down and spend years, which they did, on all of these different doctrines, put together a confession, put together catechism, put together the directory of public worship and private worship and the form of church government that should be for England, Ireland, Scotland, that if when we just felt like it, we could just toss it all away.

No, here's what we're going to do. We're going to covenant together, and we're going to say, when we put this down, all of us are signing on the dotted line, so to speak.

And so the doctrine of the Church of England was recognized more or less as somewhat reformed, except in the matters of worship and church government, two gigantic, important ecclesiastical doctrines.

And so Scotland had already signed in and of themselves the national covenant. Now they had come over, wanted the

English parliament, who were calling all of these men together, to have all of them sign this solemn league and covenant so they could get started.

And sure enough, that's what they did. And the assembly came together to ratify all of these parts of uniformity.

They wanted to be uniform in religion and prepare a confession of faith.

Now this is where you lose a lot of people, because a lot of Christians today are like, well, me and my

Bible. It's just me and my Bible. I don't need a confession. I just need me and my Bible. Well, there's the moment that you ask them, well, what is it that you believe about your

Bible? Please tell me what you believe without giving me any kind of confession. Well, they wouldn't be able to say anything, because the moment that you open your mouth and start saying, well,

I believe Jesus is such -and -such, I believe the Bible is such -and -such,

I believe the Holy Spirit is such -and -such, you're giving a confession. So what they did is they picked the best minds and put together a confession of faith that was subdivided into 33 chapters, and in each chapter it's further subdivided into all sorts of different theological ideas.

So chapter one, for example, was of the Holy Scripture. Chapter two was of God and the

Holy Trinity. Chapter three was of God's eternal decree. Chapter four dealt with creation.

Chapter five dealt with providence. Chapter six dealt with the fall of man. So they put together this large confession that was basically a systematic theology of sorts, placing down the ripest fruit of Reformed thought.

And the confession is not a polemic, it's not written in that way, it's rather a statement or a confession of the truth.

And because they were going to take this for Scotland, England, and Ireland, everyone then, all of the

Reformed churches, would have a base to which to understand what Scripture taught.

So the work on the confession began in 1644, and it was completed in a first draft in 1646, but it was finally ratified with proof texts all in 1647.

And then in 1649, Parliament in Scotland also ratified it.

In England it took a little bit more time, but by that time it was officially the

Confession of the English Church. And so their labors in doing this, it didn't take a year, two years, three years, four years to do that.

There was a lot of information, lots of committees that needed to be put together to study all of these different things.

And as they did that, those English Puritans were also pastoring their own churches, and they were writing books and treatises on various subjects.

And it's amazing how much they actually pumped out, because back then, you know, you sat down with parchment and quill pen, and then wrote everything out, gave it to the printer, and the printer would have to typeset it and put it on the printing press in that way, but yet they printed almost some of the most voluminous pieces during that particular time period.

Just on the ecclesiastical aspect of church government, there were over 10 ,000 documents that were printed at that specific time on that specific topic, because it was an important topic for them.

So John Jackson, he was one of those Westminster Puritans that attended the

Assembly and worked with them to put together some of the best creedal formulas that we have on, you know, all sorts of doctrines, practical doctrines.

It wasn't just that we want to sit down and tell people, you know, who God is, but at the same time, we want to show how that's going to practically apply, which is what they do all through the larger and shorter catechism.

I am going to read you a part of a question here from our second listener.

And by the way, RJ in White Plains, I forgot to mention to you, you have also won a free copy of The Worthy Churchman or The Faithful Minister of Jesus Christ by John Jackson, which is published by our friends at Puritan Publications, the publishing ministry of our guest today,

Dr. C. Matthew McMahon. So thank you for sending in that question. And also our second winner here is

Daniel in San Jose, California, who's also won a copy of the book.

I'm going to be forwarding you Daniel's email with this question, but I'll also read it right now and you can answer it when we come back from the break.

Thank you for today's show. I always look forward to your interviews with Dr. McMahon. Could you ask him to explain the significance of the stones, the color, their virtue, and how ministers of the gospel today can and should take heed to this

Puritan work? And secondly, could you briefly explain what up to God means in the context of this book?

And lastly, explain the importance of The Worthy Churchman, especially in today's culture. You have three questions there, and I'm actually forwarding, as I said, the email to you so you can mull it over over the break.

And anybody else who would like to join Daniel in San Jose, California with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And we do have a few of you already waiting and we'll get to as many of you as possible before the end of the program.

And so don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages with Dr. C. Matthew McMahon and our discussion of The Worthy Churchman.

Tired of box store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631 -929 -3512 or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us. The New Topical Reference Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues.

From compact to giant print Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com.

Whichever edition you choose, trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today. Go to nasbible .com.

That's nasbible .com. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com, and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is a production of Iowa Public Television which is solely responsible for its content.

But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers. We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come.

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If you just tuned in to our program, our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is

Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, founder of A Puritan's Mind. Today we are discussing The Worthy Churchman or The Faithful Minister of Jesus Christ, a book by John Jackson who lived in the 17th century.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address for a question for Dr.

C. Matthew McMahon is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence. As I read to you before we went to the break,

Dr. McMahon, Daniel of San Jose, California had three questions and let me read again the first one for you.

You should have these in front of you now, I emailed them to you, but he asks, could you ask

Dr. McMahon to explain the significance of the stones, the color, their virtue, and how ministers of the gospel can and should take heed to this

Puritan work? Okay, now Daniel, thank you for placing us right on track because that is the sum and substance of the whole work.

The idea that, first, Jackson was a brain.

He was a very smart man. He wrote, there's actually not a lot of information about his life, but he wrote nine different works, this being the first of the nine that we put together and put out there, a number of others, all of which are most excellent, but even in the way that going through his works and looking at how he says what he says, how he thinks about things, what he's done is he's taken the breastplate of the high priest and the 12 stones in that breastplate, and he has shown how in relationship to Exodus and in Revelation, because there's two areas that he kind of weaves together,

Exodus 28, 17 to 20, the text says, you shall set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones, the first row shall be, and then they name all the different stones and such, and then he also jumps over to Revelation 21, and he shows that the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all these different precious stones, and they link together in that this is something in the

Old Testament that was placed on the minister, the high priest, and in the New Testament, it was placed on the gates of the apostles, also ministers, and so what he did is he took each one of these, and he basically researched out how each one of these stones have certain virtues and certain ideas associated with their color.

We generally, we just read it and say, they're just these cool -looking stones in this neat -looking ephod, and he was like, no, no, it's much more than that, because what it does is it gives certain virtues away based on each one of these stones.

So his whole book is about being a faithful minister of the

Word of God, and he goes through, I don't know if we'll have time to go through every single one of them, so I'll pick certain aspects of them, but what he does is the first one,

Sardius, he says this is a red stone, and it is the stone of sealing, where he explains what that means, that the minister is sealed, and he is to co -work with God in winning the souls that God would seal others into the kingdom, and he does that with diligence in their pastoral office, to be better ministers, knowing the day may suddenly come when they're going to give an account of what they've done before the war, and so they're to be co -workers with God in that particular way, and in thinking about that, because I think your third question explained the importance of the worthy churchman, especially in today's culture, and why should we, how ministers today should take heed of that work.

Every aspect that the Puritans put together in talking about pastoral theology, and talking about who ministers are before God, it's eminently important, because in being a worthy herald, or being a faithful minister, every minister should be that, and we say, well, we have all sorts of faithful ministers, ministers in general are faithful.

Well, there's a little bit more of a dimension to that than just simply saying it. For example,

Jeremiah said, and I have this day declared it, that is

God's will, to you, that is to the people, but you have not obeyed, and listen to what he says, the voice of the

Lord your God, or anything which he has sent you by me, that's Jeremiah 4 to 221, so Jeremiah spoke and equated it with the voice of the

Lord. Why? Well, because God's people ought to hear God's voice in the mouth of the minister, and so if the minister is going to be a sole winner, if he's going to be faithful in that way, working alongside with God, doing what

God has called him to do, being a herald, then he's God's voice.

Do we as Christians really think about the minister in that particular way, or when the sermon is over, do we just get up and say, oh, that was a nice sermon?

Do we really need to think about what it is that God has done in taking the faithful minister and placing him in the context of the congregation, and what he is to do?

Now, he's only a man, but we're not talking about him just being only a man, we're talking about him being a worthy churchman, one that's sent by God to be a herald for God, because he is supposed to be the cure of souls in that particular manner, you know, and in thinking about what that means, he is supposed to be able to preach and pray, and he's supposed to be able to do that faithfully in order to win souls.

Now, it's not simply that he goes out and, because a lot of people are thinking, well, winning souls is converting people, well, it's not necessarily all that that's made up to be, because when you're dealing with the sanctification of the congregation itself, the minister wins souls by keeping all of those sheep inside the fold.

So not only is he going up to the byways and highways and compelling others to come in, but he's also attending to the sheep.

He is fulfilling, as Paul says, what is lacking in Christ. Now, when

Paul says that, he's not talking about in Jesus' sacrifice, he's not talking about in his ability, he's not talking about in salvation, he's talking about ministry.

That Jesus is not physically standing on the planet preaching or doing things that he did when he was with us for the time that he was.

But what he does do, like what he did with Paul, was Paul is then sent out, and the

Apostles were sent out, and preachers are then sent out to be heralded in that particular way, and they are to be in constant care of souls, not only in general, but also specifically to those in the

Church and their sanctification. So that first stone, so to speak, is talking about how ministers are to be diligent in their pastoral office, and knowing that suddenly they may be called by God to give an account of what their ministry was.

John Welch, very famous Puritan, extremely excellent minister and preacher, he was found on the floor of his living room in the middle of the night, weeping uncontrollably, and his wife heard him, and she came out and said, what is, what has happened?

And he was concerned about his diligence in pastoral ministry, in caring for the souls of the people to such an extent that he would weep over them in that way.

Paul said many times that he did that, wept in that particular manner. So the minister, the faithful minister, is to be diligent in that particular manner.

The second stone was the topaz, and the virtue that it had was having a minister which delights in the things above, searching out the counsel of God and finding out the depth of divine truth.

And he says that the color itself, which was yellow, the stone was a yellow stone, it demonstrates that the church is the queen adorned investments of gold, as Psalm 45 .9

says, and that wise and good Christians will give worthy ministers their double honor, and have in them singular love for their work's sake.

They love their work, they are diligent in it, and they continue to minister to the people in a manner in which brings them the whole counsel of God.

Now, I think on that particular point, there's a lot to say, because I think that we've kind of lost the idea of what, like, why do we preach?

Why do ministers preach the Word? Well, they preach to win souls. No, that is not why they preach.

Well, they preach to sanctify the congregation. No, that is again not why they preach.

They are supposed to be heralds on behalf of God, who declare, as Isaiah 52 .7

says, your God reigns. Their message is to be one of the supremacy of God in preaching.

How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who proclaims peace, who brings glad tidings of good things, who proclaims salvation, who says to Zion, your

God reigns. That is their main focus and main message. So the word of deliverance, redemptive preaching in that particular way, is showing that not only that God acts, but he publishes the reason why he acts.

He acts because he reigns. He's the supreme God, the one who is high and lofty and lifted up.

So the preacher is supposed to come in, and in every sermon that you hear, in every sermon that we hear, when the preacher preaches, not only are we to hear

God's voice in it, which I think we need to do better in really thinking about what it is that's occurring at that particular moment, but also that the central aspect of every sermon ever ought to be the supremacy of God in redemptive preaching concerning Christ.

Now that doesn't mean that, you know, the preacher can't preach on tithing, or that he can't preach on what it means to have the fruit of the

Spirit. They could preach with all sorts of things, but the central message is this colored stone of diligently unfolding divine truth in such a way as to keep

God central and supreme. And I think personally that that's not something, generally, that homiletics classes teach in seminary.

I think what's happening is they're learning, ministers are learning in seminary, and I went to seminary too.

Ministers are learning in seminary, like, three credits on a homiletics class how to deliver the

Word and think that it's sufficient. I mean, I cannot tell you how many sermons after sermon after sermon when we hear somebody enter into the pulpit, the first thing that they do, sometimes they don't even read the

Scripture, and they start out with an illustration about what the sermon is going to be about.

Maybe, let's say they don't do that first, they read the Scripture first, yet the first thing that they start to do right after that Scripture is read is they give you some kind of illustration about what the sermon is going to be about, as if the

Word is not going to tell you that. Of course it's going to tell you that. What we need is ministers who can explain it well, so that once that's occurring, those divine truths are being opened to the people.

Now, that doesn't mean that the Puritans didn't use illustrations. They did use illustrations, but they were fast, and they were very specific.

You know, once said, I preached like a dying man to dying men. That's fast. The Puritans would call that a proverb.

They don't go on for five, ten, fifteen, twenty minutes talking about, you know, their family vacation, or what it is that they did on the way to the church last week when they got stopped at a red light, and they had to wait there, and they pondered such.

They don't, they never did that. You read all of Jonathan Edwards' sermons, read every single one of them, and you will know nothing about Jonathan Edwards.

You will know a lot about God, but he never talked about his wife, and his children, and this and that. He would use illustrations, but he was focused on the

Word. You read any of these Puritans, and the only way that you're going to find anything out about them is if you read a biography about them, because it's not going to be in their sermon.

They were thinking, when we bring these glad tidings to the church as commissioned ministers of God, the only way that we're going to have lovely feet in that particular way is if we bring

God's message. So we have to be preaching in that particular manner. And I'm assuming,

I don't recall you actually addressing the second question. You addressed the first and the third from Daniel, but the second question

Daniel had was, could you briefly explain what up to God means in the context of this book?

Everything that the worthy churchman does, everything that the faithful minister does, is going to be given first to God.

His job is first and foremost to do and say what the

Lord wants that particular minister to do in the context of his pastoral ministry.

Everything is given up to God first, and then God will then bless whatever the work is if that minister is being faithful to the message.

I mean, just think about the practical application of that in preaching or teaching what a minister preaches or teaches.

Think about, I like to use the illustration of Jonah. You know, Jonah, tough time.

He got swallowed by the fish, he's in the stomach of the fish, looks pretty, you know, rank by the time he's puked up on the beach.

And he was, right? So he was probably pretty in bad shape. He was in the acid of the fish's stomach for three days.

So he gets puked up on the beach in front of a city that worships

Dagon, the fish god. And if anybody saw that, here comes some divine messenger.

Imagine if Jonah walked into the city and said, Hey, everybody, let me tell you about my dog.

Let me explain to you what happened to me on my family vacation.

No, no, no. When the Lord commissioned him, he said,

You go to Nineveh, that great city, and you preach to them what I tell you. And then the second time, once he's puked up onto the beach, and he has to do it,

God says it again. What I tell you to preach. This is the message that you need to be faithful.

So if they're first not going and doing what God has required of them as the faithful minister, those things are not going up to God.

They're going out. Maybe that kind of minister wants people to like them, or approve of them, or something of that particular manner.

Maybe there's some fear of men that comes in that way. But we need more worthy churchmen who will go and speak

God's word, God's way, and in God's manner, and take the word and stick to the word.

Well, I tell you that illustration that you gave earlier of the pastor. No, it wasn't Jackson. I think it wasn't

Jackson, who was found by his wife on the floor weeping over. Who was that?

That was John Welch. That's right. John Welch. Right. That really puts me to shame as I reflect upon the very few times that I have been found on the floor weeping.

It was usually because I called the pizzeria too late to get a delivery. I mean, this man is actually really, truly concerned over the souls of his flock.

Right, right. That's really awe -inspiring and embarrassing to all of us who,

I mean, when we think even if we're not pastors, how often have we wept over the souls of our own families, and our lack of evangelism to them, or our lack of even just being obedient Christians in their lives.

Well, you know, it's a very large slap in the head for us, because when we read

Scripture, we find that Esau wept looking for the blessing, and we don't do that.

You know, it's like you think about, think about when the first time most people that I know, that I've spoken with, myself, my wife, converted under preaching.

What happened to us on that particular day when we were converted in that particular way?

You know that people who were converted, and knew that they were converted at that particular time, they, that was a different day for them.

It was not just another sermon. It was life -transforming, life -changing.

The preacher took our hand and put it into the hand of Christ, put it into the arms of Christ, and it was not just another sermon.

So why is it, though, that if we have, let's assume we have faithful ministers who are preaching, we have those

John Welches, we have those John Jacksons, we have those guys that are concerned about our souls, why is it that we go into those situations with listening to preaching, and it was just another sermon?

And we're not affected in that particular way, and we don't weep over our sin, and we aren't thinking about it that way.

It's not that our lives are supposed to be drab and dreary, but we are to have a real sense of being continually ripped away from the world and brought closer to the

Lord Jesus Christ. I think one of my favorite illustrations in any of the Narnia Chronicles is when

Eustace, he goes and he touches, you know, the cup and the treasure on that island, and he turns into a dragon, and everybody's like, where's

Eustace? And he's a dragon, and Aslan has to come and literally with his claws rip the scales off of Eustace, because he had that worldly mind about him.

And I think that when preachers preach, you know, it's not sharing, it's not musing at the pulpit, it's not a theological lecture, it's supposed to connect us with the intent of the

Holy Spirit in the Scripture that's being preached on for the good of our sanctification, and we should be brought either closer to heaven or closer to hell, one way or the other.

And I think that a lot of that is lacking today. I don't think that we're as serious as we could be, and I think that's one of the reasons why the

Puritans are so important. And I'm going to read a question and go to our midway break.

Gordy from Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, I've already forwarded you his question. He says, there seems to be an inherent, deep, reverent attitude towards the call to the pastorate by Puritan writers.

Do you find this attitude in evangelical circles today to be lacking? What about Reformed church leaders?

And you can respond to Gordy when we come back from the break. And thank you, Gordy, for that question or those two questions.

And if anybody else would like to join Gordy with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back, God willing, with more of Dr. C. Matthew McMahon and the worthy churchmen.

One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.

I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use

BatteryDepot .com for all your battery needs. At BatteryDepot .com,

they're changing the status quo. They're flipping the script. They're sticking it to the man. In other words, they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new, dependable and affordable.

Ordering from BatteryDepot .com ensures you'll always get fresh out -of -the -box batteries you can count on to work properly at competitive prices.

Whether you need batteries for cordless phones, cell phones, radios, PCs, laptops, tablets, baby monitors, hearing aids, smoke detectors, credit card readers, digital cameras, electronic cigarettes,

GPSs, MP3 players, watches, or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries, go to BatteryDepot .com.

Next day shipping available. All products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month warranties.

Call 866 -403 -3768. That's 866 -403 -3768.

Or go to BatteryDepot .com. That's BatteryDepot .com. Thriving Financial is not your typical financial services provider.

As a membership organization, we help Christians be wise with money and live generously every day.

And for the fourth year in a row, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the

Ethisphere Institute, a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation, advancement, and sharing of best practices in business ethics.

Contact me, Mike Gallagher, Financial Consultant, at 717 -254 -6433.

Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the

Thrivent difference. Lending faith, finances, and generosity.

That's the Thrivent story. Chef Exclusive Catering is in South Central Pennsylvania.

Chef Exclusive's goal is to provide a dining experience that is sure to please any palate. Chef Damian White of Chef Exclusive is a graduate of the renowned

Johnson and Wales University with a degree in Culinary Arts and Applied Science. Chef Exclusive Catering's event center is newly designed with elegance and style and is available for small office gatherings, bridal showers, engagement parties, and rehearsal dinners.

Critics and guests alike acknowledge Chef Exclusive's commitment to exceeding even the highest expectations.

I know of their quality firsthand since Chef Exclusive catered by most recent Iron Sharpens Iron radio,

Pastor's Luncheon. For details, call 717 -388 -3000.

That's 717 -388 -3000. Or visit www .chefexclusive .com.

That's www .chefexclusive .com. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a

Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

TV program, entitled, Resting in Grace. You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org,

that's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York, by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333, that's 631 -385 -8333, or visit liyfc .org,

that's liyfc .org. Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes

Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors. Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering, understanding, and exceeding your expectations.

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results. Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations, including kitchen and bath remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and more.

For a clear, detailed professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time.

Call Solid Rock Remodeling at 717 -697 -1981, 717 -697 -1981, or visit solidrockremodeling .com,

that's solidrockremodeling .com. Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home.

Have you been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio? We remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you.

There are four ways you can help. First, do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their goods or services on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

Second, whenever possible, purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise, and then let them know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at ironsharpensironradio .com

and click support at the top of the page. But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the

Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the

Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go is

Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, founder of A Puritan's Mind. We are addressing the worthy churchman or the faithful minister of Jesus Christ by John Jackson, who lived in the 17th century.

If you'd like to join us with a question for Dr. McMahon, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. But before we return to our discussion, we have some important announcements from some of our sponsors.

The Gospel of the Reformation 500th Anniversary Celebration is being held at the

Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, in cooperation with Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship.

The guest speaker is Dr. Tony Costa, a dear friend of mine who is on the faculty at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He's the professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, and joining him on the roster at that conference are

Pastor Caleb Bunch, Pastor Bruce Bennett, and Pastor Dave Corson. If you would like to join me,

God willing, at this conference, which will be held on Friday, September 29th through Saturday, September 30th, you can go to Word of Truth Church's website, wotchurch .com,

wotchurch .com, or you can call 631 -806 -0614.

631 -806 -0614. Word of Truth Church is located on 1055

Portion Road in Farmingville, New York. And again, the dates for this 500th

Anniversary of the Gospel of the Reformation Celebration is

Friday, September 29th, and Saturday, September 30th. So I hope to see you there.

Then the very next day, on Sunday, October 1st, Dr. Tony Costa will also be speaking at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Medford, Long Island, New York.

They're located on 3239 Route 112, Suite 1 in Medford, Long Island, New York.

And if you want more information on directions and other things, you can go to hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli, standing for longisland .net, or you can call them at 631 -696 -5711.

631 -696 -5711. Then coming up in November, the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is conducting their annual Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology.

That's November 17th through the 18th, and it will be held at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

The theme is, For Still Our Ancient Foe, a reference to Satan from the classic

Reformation hymn, A Mighty Fortress, by Martin Luther. And speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

If you would like to join me at that conference, because I am planning also to be there with an

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitors booth, you could go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org,

then click on events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reformed Theology. And then we have coming up in January, the

G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia. I also plan to be there with an exhibitors booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

The G3 Conference being held from the 17th through the 20th of January in Atlanta, Georgia.

The theme is going to be, Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship.

And on the 17th, it is exclusively a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference. From the 18th through the 20th is an

English -speaking version of the main conference. The speakers include

Stephen Lawson, Voti Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B. Charles Jr., Tim Chalies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

If you would like to attend the G3 Conference, and by the way, G3 stands for Grace, Gospel, and Glory, in case you're wondering.

The G3 Conference, if you want more information on registering for it, go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com. If you're registering for any of these events or merely contacting the organizations running these events for more information, please always tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Now, once again, my advertisers have urged me to make public appeals for donations and also for new advertising because we have reached a crossroads in the history of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when we really drastically need your support financially in order to remain on the air.

If you are blessed above and beyond your ability to support your local church as you always have been and to provide for your family, because those two things are commands of God, supporting my radio program is obviously not a command of God, but if you're blessed above and beyond your ability to support those two things, and please never skim out of your giving to your local church or siphon out of it in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron.

Please never do that. But if you're blessed above and beyond your ability to do those things, as you always have been doing, please help support

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. If indeed you enjoy this program, if it's a part of your daily habit of life, if you have gained much from it in regard to edification and you really look forward to this program, well, if you want it to remain on the air and you're able to help us financially, please do so.

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click on support, and you will have a mailing address where you can mail a check for any amount made out to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And if you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you're advertising is compatible with the theology expressed on this program,

I would love to talk to you about advertising. You don't have to agree with me identically on theology, but it has to be compatible.

And I don't have to, I don't want to, I should say, promote anything that conflicts with what

I believe. But if you have something that you want to promote that is completely compatible with the theology on this program, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put advertising in the subject line. And I hope that we can develop an ad campaign with you very soon, because we do urgently need your advertising dollars.

We now return to our interview with Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, founder of A Puritan's Mind.

And as I said, we're discussing The Worthy Churchman or the Faithful Minister of Jesus Christ by John Jackson, a 17th century

Puritan. And we have a question from Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania that I read to you earlier before the break.

There seems to be an inherent deep reverent attitude towards the call to the pastorate by Puritan writers.

Do you find this attitude in evangelical circles today to be lacking? And what about Reformed church leaders?

That's a great question. It's an important question. Yes, there is an inherent deep reverent attitude towards the call to the pastorate by the

Puritan, and it's constant in that way. Every single work that you will read is in that particular vein.

They saw, I mean, if you just think about it, they saw the pastorate and the diligence that goes into that as of utmost importance, because it's the means and manner, it's a means of grace.

Preaching is a means of grace, and if the preacher is God's voice, and God requires them to be a voice in a certain manner, then it is of utmost importance that everything about them ought to reflect what

God requires concerning His Word about that particular office. Do we find that in evangelical circles?

Big quotes around evangelical as it came to me to be lacking. I would say,

I could say it this way, I was in evangelical circles years and years and years ago in that particular way, in terms of what the question is.

Yeah, because we didn't think of it at that time in that way. You know, you want to be administered, that may be a good thing.

You know, do you like people? Yes. Do you have a hearty handshake? Yes. Do you smile? Yes. Can you read the scripture?

Maybe pray a little bit? Yes. You're in. That's what we need. We need more friendly faces.

Make the people feel good. And, you know, I don't want anyone who's listening that...thinking

that, oh, I'm just being too hard. God is very specific about what

He requires those ministers to be like. So I think even in Reformed circles today,

I think we still need to up that game a little bit more, because case in point,

I went to seminary. I have lots of friends that are ministers. They went to seminary. I have minister friends that come to me, that email me, that talk with me and say, listen,

I went to seminary, but I never learned how to do what you're talking about. I don't understand what this expository preaching, this experimental preaching that Puritans did.

I don't know what that is. How do I do that? So I think that there's a lot of that which is lacking, and I hear a lot of frustration from ministers, even just in the last couple of days.

Another person emailed me, and they were like, you know, I understand what it is that this is, this realm of Puritan experiential preaching, but I don't know how to make my sermons do that, and so they haven't been taught.

And so there's a thing that happens with theologians and teachers and pastors that know how this works, and they're thinking, that's where our sadness really comes out, because we're thinking, here are these people, they have a heart, they have the right qualifications, they're the right guys for the job, so to speak, but they just haven't been trained in the way that they need to.

They don't have the to the Timothy. They have the, maybe, maybe, the brick -and -mortar seminary.

They sat in the class, they took their exegesis class for three credits and their homiletics class for three credits, and think that they got everything down.

I remember one of my teachers at a seminary, years later, said,

I love to teach the demon student, the ones that come back to get their doctorate in ministry, the pastors, who come back three, four, five years later.

I was like, well, why do you like that more? And he said, because they're ready to learn.

They've been in the ministry, they see their deficiency, they see what they need to improve on, and so they come back, and they're like, okay, now tell me how do

I do this? We're working on a book right now by Jeremiah Burroughs that has never been published before.

It's an utter gem, and it's really long, but it's really good.

And one of the things that he does, and as I'm reading it, I'm thinking about ministers. One of the things that he does,

Burroughs was one of these guys on the assembly, that next to John Jackson, so to speak, as we're talking about the worthy churchmen, and he talks about the burden of the law.

He goes on for like 200 pages and 20 chapters on how the law is a burden in all of the various ways that it is on the consciences of not only unbelievers that need to come to Christ to be saved, but even of believers who try to live in some legal way.

And I'm thinking to myself, okay, see, we don't get trained in this way. We don't get trained on what the

Puritans would call cases of conscience, how to deal with different people.

You know, what happens is the pastor walks into the hospital room where the parents just lost the baby, and what does he do?

He reads them a scripture, and he prays with them. I mean, if the

Puritans were sitting in there, they would be like, what are you doing? Help them. Well, what do you mean?

I thought praying and reading the scripture would be helpful. No, no, no. You need to be able to take this and give them, you're the mouthpiece of God.

What is God going to do to comfort these people? Because it's going to be more than just zipping off a scripture and saying a nice prayer with them and then walking out the door.

You need to be able to deal with that conscience. What you do is the person, the young person, the 16, 17 -year -old that's in the

Christian family, and he is now weeping on his bed because he doesn't know if he's saved or not, and the law is a burden to him, to use the law as an example.

How does the minister deal with that particular person? What is that case of conscience like?

So that's what Jesus, when he dealt with his disciples, he has this group of disciples, and he basically gives them an ordination sermon of sorts in Matthew 5, the

Sermon on the Mount, directed to the disciples, and he says to them, your light is to shine before men.

He says, now listen, he says, you're to be salt. You're sprinkled on things, but if the salt loses its saltiness, how good is it?

It's worthless. You take it, you throw it, and people trample on top of it.

Ministers have to be salt. They have to be preservative in that way.

Their light is to shine in that way. They're to have their doctrine set.

Ministers, generally speaking, ministers should not be learning their doctrine as they are ministering, and because of the way things occur today, a lot of times that's the case.

They're learning doctrine as they go, and then when they get to a point where there may be something major that they learn, it's like,

I have to leave this church because they and we don't see eye to eye on this anymore.

All sorts of crazy things happen that way, because I don't think that we're being prepared that way in that particular manner.

I think that there's a reverence in Reformed circles towards it, but I really don't think we're grasping it and holding on to it with both hands, you know?

I think one of the things that the

Jackson talks about in the Carbuncle, the Carbuncle, the colors, the color of a flame, he says, and that particular stone is like a burning coal where ministers are fitly signified as having great zeal in what they do.

You know, it's comely for any to be zealous in good things, and so I think that we need to be more zealous in training up a minister, because even right now

I'm dealing with putting together a series of sermons for the congregation that I'm pulpit supplied for, and dealing with the idea of what should be happening in the pulpit so that you know as a congregation, because they're looking for a minister, you know as a congregation what is to be expected of you because God requires you to do certain things based on what these sermons and this preaching and such are about.

So if these things are not happening, if these people are not the voice of God to you, then where does that leave you?

See, that's why Jesus said, if you're not salt, you're good for nothing, you're useless to the people.

So there has to be this great zeal, this unmitigated zeal that, you know, imbued from the pores of the preacher in that particular way, in doctrine and in piety.

Jesus, in Matthew 21, when he went to the temple, the second time he did it, he drove them out, made the whips and the cords, and it says, zeal for your house has eaten me up, and the disciples saw that.

And then they left, it was night, they went back to Bethany, they stayed there overnight because it was so tumultuous in the city that he couldn't stay there, so he left, and he came back the next day from Bethany traveling to Jerusalem, and on the fig tree,

Mark says he saw it afar off, and he was excited about it, the text says, because he saw, oh, he hungered, and he wanted to eat.

He walks up to the tree, and the tree only has leaves on it. Now the thing that was interesting about that is that the temple was filled with hypocrites, and the tree is hypocritically demonstrating itself, that it should have fruit, but it has none, because with a fig tree, the fruit forms first, then the leaves accompany the growth of the fruit, so that by the time you have leaves and the tree looks healthy, you should have tons of fruit, you should be able to eat it.

So Jesus looks at the tree, and he immediately curses it, because it's good for nothing. In fact, could you pick up right where you left off with Jesus cursing the tree, because we have to go to our final break.

Yes, please. We'll pick up right where you left off on Jesus cursing the fig tree, and if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question, now is the time to do it, because we're running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors,

God willing. Tired of box store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news. Wading River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience, featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word, and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times. 631 -929 -3512, or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us. 631 -929 -3512, or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us.

is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round Bible conference and retreat center nestled on the

Jersey Shore. Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.

For generations, Christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at Harvey Cedars. Each year, thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about God's Word.

An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families, couples, singles, men, women, pastors, seniors, and missionaries.

Ninety miles from New York City, 70 miles from Philly, and 95 miles from Wilmington, and easily accessible, scores of notable

Christian groups frequently plan conferences at Harvey Cedars, like the Navigators, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus Crusade, and the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org.

hcbible .org. Call 609 -494 -5689.

609 -494 -5689. Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, I'm Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

Christian perspective. Try World at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of R .C.

Sproul's book, Relationship Between Church and State. I rely on World because I trust the reporting,

I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

Simply visit wmg .org forward slash iron sharpens to get your

World trial and Dr. Sproul's book all free, no obligation with no credit card required.

Visit World News Group at wmg .org forward slash iron sharpens today.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastor's Study every

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit

The Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

Welcome back. We are now in our final 25 minutes or so with our guest today, Dr. C.

Matthew McMahon, founder of A Puritan's Mind. We are addressing the worthy churchman or the faithful minister of Jesus Christ by John Jackson, a 17th century

Puritan. If you'd like to join us on the air, we are rapidly running out of time, so do so quickly at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and you'll have to get in line because we already have several people waiting to have their own questions asked and answered, but we'll get to as many of you as time allows.

And before the break, Dr. McMahon, you were talking about Jesus cursing the fig tree. Yes, you know, he had gone to the temple, they had turned it into a den of thieves, he drove them out, and on the way back he saw this tree, and the tree didn't have the fruit that he expected that it should have, and he cursed it, which is a parallel to the temple.

But in thinking about that, it's like what, in terms of Gordy's question, how we think about what ministers or pastors should be doing today, what would churches do if they were at Jesus's time, and they had the temple there, and they knew the situation was bad, would they make a cord, a whip out of cords, and drive them out?

I think that we have that mindset more, that it's more loving to set up a booth right next to them.

That seems to be the more loving thing, to win them over, to see if we can, in some way, convert them to our way of thinking or our mind.

The Puritans would never do that, in terms of thinking about what the minister was to do.

The sapphire, as John Jackson talks about, says that its color was blue, signifying the color of the heavens and the loftiness of the mind toward heavenly things, which is the best temperament for a minister's spirit.

You know, think about, I think about the practicality of that Jonah illustration. Imagine if Jonah did go in, and he gave, you know, he said, oh

Lord, you know, I know that you want me to say, yet 40 days and Nineveh's going to be overthrown, I know you want me to preach that message, but that's a little harsh.

Let's make it a little bit more palatable, because we really need to win these people over.

I'll tell you, the Ninevites wouldn't have been converted, and they would have been kicked on the day of judgment against Jonah for not doing what

God specifically called him to do, because the city was converted by his preaching, because he preached and delivered what

God wanted him to preach. Now, that doesn't mean he had a good attitude about it. Jonah is a case in and of itself.

Talk about, you know, being that cure of souls, which he should have been, and yet wasn't.

He had certain reasons for that, but yet, you know, we should be trying to rip sin out of the congregation in a manner in which demonstrates not only

God's directives and will, but also demonstrates Christ loving his people, and he says, my sheep will hear my voice.

And so the minister has to do that in terms of being able to preach and teach in a manner in which

God wants him to do that. And if he doesn't do that, people are not going to be converted, they're not going to be sanctified.

And so I think in evangelical circles as a whole, we're more thinking about how we can keep the people in there rather than snatch them from the fire, as Jude says, in order to bring them to heaven.

Well, Gordy, you've also won a free copy of The Worthy Churchman or The Faithful Minister of Jesus Christ by John Jackson, and we thank

Puritan Publications for providing these free copies of this book, and we thank

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com,

for shipping out all of our winners, their Bibles and books and other things that they win when they submit questions to our guests.

And now, a drumroll please, because we have the final winner of a book today.

Let's see here, we have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who asks, was

John Jackson amongst those who believed in Presbyterian polity at the

Westminster Assembly, or was he among the Congregationalists? Does this difference in church polity really matter much when it comes to the role of the minister that you're speaking of today?

Jackson was not an independent. Again, we have to gather it based on the information that we have about him, yet we know who the independents were that were at Westminster.

He was not one of them, and he was not an Orastian, so by all good and necessary inference, he was in the

Presbyterian form of church government. The Presbyterian form of church government aids in many ways concerning the way that ministers deal with one another, in terms of other ministers and the relationship that they have in that particular way.

But in terms of what we're talking about, in the way a minister should be the worthy churchman in that particular way, you know,

I'll just tell you one of the people that have had some of the greatest influences for me personally on my life, like Jeremiah Burroughs.

He was an independent. Now, there are a hearty number of them that were in that particular way, so you could be an exceedingly fabulous minister and still not be a

Presbyterian, so to speak, as if that's the in thing for Westminster. Keep in mind, though, that the idea was, even with the independents, it wasn't like they were all going in and then

Jeremiah Burroughs was going to say, well, listen, if they vote and we wind up in the next four years as Presbyterians, I'm out.

I'm not doing it. No, see, that was the whole point of the Solemn League and Covenant. Whatever the assembly came as a consensus and vote, and looking at Scripture, that was what we were going to go with.

And so even in the Presbyterian form of church government, one of the parts to the standards itself, they talk about just what is a minister and how the minister should preach, how he should be, who it is that is duly qualified for that office.

They talk about it in a larger catechism, in the shorter catechism. It's showing how to hear the

Word of God comes right out of the larger catechism's idea on the means of grace and what it is that the preacher is doing on behalf of God.

So, in other words, can you be an independent and be a really good preacher? Yes, there were many of them.

Great, just in this case, great Puritans that were independent, and there were great

Puritans that were Presbyterians, and yet all of them would still hold to many of the same ideas concerning what the minister is to be and how he is to act.

You know, be able to declare righteousness, to press men to wear white garments, that's what the minister is supposed to do, is the voice of God, you know?

And so as a result of that, he is the pastor to persuade, to be the cure of souls, to govern the church well, to teach the truth by way of doctrine and demonstrate what the discipline of godliness is really about.

I think I was on the last time we were speaking about Perkins and the call to ministry, and there was a question about, what do we think that's lacking?

Aside from really understanding the office of the pastor, I think one of the things that's lacking that we can improve on is eminent piety.

That's one of the things that Jackson tackles in a number of the stones in dealing with. You, as a minister, should be fighting wholeheartedly, not only in your own corruption that you're still dealing with, but you're leading men to be righteous before God, and to wear those white garments in that particular way, and to prevail with a holy temper before them at demonstrating what that actually means.

So I think it doesn't matter whether you're talking about Jeremiah Burroughs, or whether you're talking about John Owen, or whether you're talking about Sibbes, or any of those great

Puritans, they're all going to still come down to the fundamental ideas of what ministers ought to be like.

And again, for us today, it goes back to, are we training ministers in the right way?

Are they learning these things? What do they do when they get to that particular point, and they say, okay,

I don't know how to do this. Where are they getting their information from? That's part and parcel of what was exciting to me about a

Puritan's mind, and what we're doing, and putting out some of these books that I think are exceedingly helpful, and that we should get excited about.

Amen. Well, thank you Arnie, and as I said, you have won the final copy that we're giving away today of The Worthy Churchman, or The Faithful Minister of Jesus Christ by John Jackson.

Please make sure we have your full mailing address in Perry County, Pennsylvania. Thanks again for submitting another excellent question.

And by the way, I have a print of that gorgeous painting by John Rogers, that 19th century artist who painted that classic painting,

Assertion of Liberty of Conscience by the Independents and the

Westminster Assembly of Divines. You must be familiar with it, Dr.

Matt. It's one of the most famous paintings of the Westminster Assembly. I have that hanging on my living room wall, the print of it, that is.

Let's see, we have we have

Osinachi from Lagos, Nigeria listening, and Osinachi says,

Hello Chris, I have been acquainted with your guest through his website for some time, and I'm glad you're interviewing him.

I know he is grounded in the works of the Puritans, so I'd like to hear him explain what influenced these men to preach this way, and how pastors today can emulate their pattern.

I think, really simply, is first, in thinking about what the herald or the interpreter is supposed to do, they are to preach as a preacher

God's message. I think that, I mean, that's oversimplified, but it's not, because for some reason, a lot of ministers think that sharing or doing things, maybe even running

Bible drills. Bible drills is when you say, okay, today we're going to talk about prayer, and you say the

Lord Jesus wants us to pray, and then you give the congregation 98 verses on all of what the

Bible says on prayer, and you jump from one to another, but you really don't get down to explaining what it is.

I had one good brother who asked me to help him think about how to preach in this way that we're talking about, and be a minister in this particular way, and I said, okay, when's the next time you're going to preach?

And they said, it's going to be in two weeks from now. Okay, great. I said, what's your topic?

Your topic, I'm going to preach on prayer. I said, perfect. I said, here's your text, 1

Thessalonians 5 .17, pray without ceasing. I said, now you can Greek that to death, and when you're done, it's still going to say, pray without ceasing.

You're going to have to take that idea and explain it.

You're going to have to explain prayer. Now, this might be a whole bunch of ministers listening right now thinking, I could do that.

Well, not everybody can do that, and what happens is that ministers who are not really widely exposed to those systematic ideas concerning, in this case, prayer all through Scripture, or haven't maybe thought through what prayer is and how they might define it, it's difficult then to jump into this mode of trying to be able to take the text, and this would be an answer to this question that you just asked.

I would do three things. I would take the text, read it, and explain what the text says.

After I've done that, I would pull a doctrine out of that text.

I would explain that, and then I would apply that to the lives of the people.

Now, the Puritans did that constantly. If you read any of their sermons, sometimes they're more or less, but they're always the same.

Sometimes they'll call them uses for application, but it's always the same. Read the text and explain it.

Pull a doctrine from the text. Show the people what that means in terms of all of the

Christian church for all time should be able to understand x, y, and z, in this case, about prayer.

Pray without ceasing what that means, and then thirdly, apply that specifically to the life of the congregation.

So even when I preach a sermon personally, I'm not saying you, we, our, until I get to part three.

In the beginning, I'm going to be talking about the apostle Paul and what he's done with the church of Thessalonica and how that scripture falls out in some of these miscellaneous ideas in the latter part of that chapter.

These are concluding ideas. Then when I get to the second part, and I talk about the doctrine that I'm going to pull out of the text,

I'm talking about the church in all ages. So I'm going to use language like Christians believe, unbelievers will say, or the church has always understood.

I've used language like that. And then when I get to the application that I'm going to apply it specifically to them, you, we, here's how we should be thinking about it.

Have you considered these things? But what happens is, is that we, they're teaching today that homiletics revolves around every single point that you bring should be addressed specifically to the congregation, and it should contain an illustration.

I mean, I'm just telling you, if I did that, my sermons would be three hours, because there's no way that I'm going to be able to explain the text, pull a doctrine out of the text and apply the text with every single point that I need to make concerning that particular scripture, and then illustrate every one of those as if I need to illustrate it and the word isn't enough.

Again, I'm not saying that we shouldn't illustrate, but they should be very pointed and very precise and very, very well thought out as to why we're using that.

We should have the ability as ministers to explain what the text says.

Again, Jonah didn't go in there with lots of illustrations. He went in preaching what God specifically told him to do, and specifically what to proclaim, and he did it for a two -day walk across the city.

He didn't have time for talking about all of these extraneous things that preachers think, for some reason, that they help the text.

I don't know, but maybe it's just me, I don't think the text needs help. I think we just need really good preachers who herald an understanding of what

God says in the text, and they take the mind of the people and connect it to the mind and intent of the

Holy Spirit in that text. That's what the preachers should be doing. Well, thank you,

Osinachi. Keep spreading the word about Iron Trip and Zion Radio in Lagos, Nigeria, and beyond.

We have another overseas listener. We have

Joe in Slovenia, and let's see,

Joe says, Dear Brother Chris, As Buzz already mentioned, that today's common view about Puritans is that they are wholly unfit for consideration regarding models for pastors, elders, or especially your average churchman.

In our day, when so much emphasis is placed on celebrity showmanship instead of pastoral care and secular standards are employed to accomplish church growth instead of faithful preaching, what specifically are those core characteristics of the

Puritans that we need to recover to be trustworthy stewards and under -shepherds of the flock of God?

Thanks for leading us back to the purity of the Puritans. Well, obviously you've covered some of what

Joe was asking about already, but do you have anything to add? Well, I think that it's an adjustment to our focus.

I think that in terms of taking the preacher and saying, okay, the preacher is one, to be

God's voice. I think the gravity of that is exceedingly important.

Now, what does it mean for the preacher to have that kind of gravity? Paul says this is a quality that the minister is supposed to have.

A bishop must be great, pastor must be great, 1st Timothy 3 .2. So when we employ that word of that idea, that's weightiness.

Whenever we talk about, like for example, we talk about the glory of God, what is it that means that God is glorious?

The Hebrew idea is in terms of weightiness, that it's His presence, it's the part of His being in that way that's weighty.

And so I think the minister needs to regain again the gravity of not only the office, but what it is that he's encouraged to do by God, commanded to do by God.

You know, the apostles in Acts 6 said, we're going to preach, and we're going to pray.

And the minister better be able to do those two things eminently, because if he's not doing it in his closet, which means that he needs to be eminent in his piety in that manner, to be able to get out to ever do anything like pray for the congregation, pray in the midst of the congregation, or preach, both of those things come directly out of really understanding the

Word. The people think that when they get up to pray, that they just get up and whatever happens to come to mind, and so they pray in that particular way.

Dr. Chalmers, for example, Puritan, he not only in his teaching class, but even when he preached or at church, he would write out his prayers beforehand.

Why would he do that? Would that, does that not squelch the spontaneity of the

Spirit? Well, see, this is where that understanding, that full -orbed understanding of what these great

Puritan ministers were thinking concerning the Word, everything revolves around the Word. So if you pray, for example, prayer is taking the

Word of God, forming it into an argument, and retorting it back to God again. It's taking its promises, throwing it back on God again, and saying,

Lord, make good on your promises, because this is what you say in your Word. And so they would pray that way.

And some of these men would pray for hours. Alexander Henderson, on one particular fast day, prayed for two hours before the preacher came, and he preached for a good amount of time.

The preacher should be able to pray, but unless they really saturate themselves in the

Word and in their private devotions, they're never going to be able to come out of their closet and preach and pray in the way that they should.

Hear from God, deliver God's message as a herald, and do that effectively.

There's something that's going to be lost in missing out on the gravity of that idea and of the office itself.

So as much as they should be graven that way, there should be also a simplicity and modesty about who they are as ministers.

They should have a gentleness about them. They should have a loyalty about them, a great amount of integrity.

All of those things that we can go through in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus talk about all of these different qualifications, but if we don't really believe them or really think that they're that important at the expense of everything else, then we're going to wind up...

Our idea of what constitutes a really good minister for any congregation that needs a minister and wants a minister right now is that, listen, if he walks through the front door and he shakes my hand and he has a nice smile and he has a pulse, let's consider him.

But that would be really shooting yourself in the heart, because he is supposed to be leading you as a congregation to the throne.

And so if he's not doing that, then how is he going to do that for you? You know, one thing that occurs to me that perhaps specifically

Reformed men who believe they are called to the ministry should have first and foremost in their minds, well, second to the fact that they truly believe they're being called of God to this office.

But there are men that I am sure are brilliant and they have been at the top of their class and seminary.

They have been applauded by faculty and students alike for their brilliance, their articulate abilities, their homiletic abilities and their hermeneutic abilities and so on and so on.

But don't these men, even above that, need to have the heart of a shepherd before they even consider an office like this?

Oh my, yes. I mean, every single one of them, that John Welch illustration, the care of the soul.

I had one gentleman email me and he said he saw, I have some videos that talk about pastoral ministry, and he said he saw one on catechizing, and he's like, you know,

I don't even do that. I said, well, you have to care about that soul, and that means that you have to care about not only the mother and the father, but the children.

Part of your job is to take the word and minister to all these different kinds of people.

And I had somebody ask me just about a week ago, they said, well, what exactly did these guys do way back when, when they were discipling people?

I said, well, what did you think? They had, like, the Friday night Bible study, and this, that, and they didn't do that.

What they had, they had the Lord's Day, morning and evening, and then they went around to everybody's house outside of the prayer meeting.

That would be a constituted prayer meeting at some particular point. They would go around house to house, and they would catechize so that everybody was on the same page.

It was part and parcel of what the Westminster Assembly did, putting together the larger catechism for the parents and the shorter catechism for the kids.

And that they would make sure that everybody knew this stuff, because it wasn't just that they're looking for a paycheck.

They go to church, they preach one time, and they want $80 ,000 a year like we do today. No, what they were doing is they wanted to, they wanted these people to get to heaven.

How am I going to get them there? What am I going to do? That's why we haven't talked about him, and he's not a

Puritan, but he's one of the pastor's pastor. His name was

Vinay, Alexander Vinay, and he said, the minister's life is a life of consecration.

He is consecrated, his family is consecrated, his household is consecrated for the work of the ministry, out of which he has no meaning if it is not consecrated.

And so it's like they give themselves wholly over to this, wholly over to wanting to see people get to heaven.

And there can be no, do this to a fault, because there's so much that needs to be done in the

Church today in that particular manner, in any age of the Church, to get those people to heaven. This was what was first and foremost on their mind, doing what

God wants me to do as demonstrating His supremacy in everything that I am in the office, and getting people to heaven.

Amen. Well, I want to give you one minute to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we run out of time.

I don't want people, I don't expect anybody who's listening or any ministers who are listening, I don't want you to be thinking, man, this is just like pummeling me, because I don't believe some of these things, or I don't think, but we can't think that way.

We have to be thinking that Scripture, and this is the purpose of Jackson's work. We want to take where people are at and bring them even further along so that they can bring their people further along.

And the people themselves, they should know what constitutes the office of the minister, so that they know what it is that they should expect.

And both of those things, hand in hand, should be an encouragement to us, not a detriment to us.

Amen. Well, I know that your websites are a Puritan's Mind dot com, a

Puritan's, that's plural, a Puritan's Mind dot com, and also

Puritan Publications dot com, Puritan Publications dot com. Any other contact information you're here to give?

Well, just one note, AutoPuritan's Mind, we have a whole section, it's brand new this year, that we basically put out as much free information as we can, and will continue to do so, on pastoral ministry and expository preaching.

So even if you're thinking, where do I start? There's a spot under Puritan's Mind specifically for that. Amen. Well, I want to thank you so much,

Dr. Matt, for being on the program again, and if you could hold on, I'd like to schedule another interview with you. And I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in.

I hope you all have a safe and blessed and God -glorifying weekend and Lord's Day, and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater