July 21, 2021 Show with Roger Salter on “The Anglican Structure of Faith, Scripture, Reason & Tradition, & its Abuse”

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com

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this is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 21st day of July 2021 and I'm thrilled to have back on the program one of my favorite guests

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Roger Salter he is rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham Alabama which is a very conservative traditional and reformed

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Anglican congregation much in the tradition of Thomas Cranmer and today we are going to be addressing a very controversial and yet also very important theme the

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Anglican structure of faith scripture reason and tradition and it's abuse by both the left and the

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Anglo Catholics and the need to reclaim Richard Hooker and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Roger Salter thank you very much

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Chris it's always daunting to be on radio but it's grand to be in your safe hands so it's a pleasure to be with you today

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I really appreciate that brother and tell our listeners about St. Matthew's Anglican Church of Birmingham Alabama St.

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Matthew's I can sum it up rather quickly after the way you've described us so accurately

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Chris but we're small independent reformational and among the small group we are very clearly intended to have the intention to adhere to the rich Anglican heritage that we've inherited from the

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Reformation and therefore as our subtitle would indicate you are neither a leftist church a liberal church that could very be could very accurately be categorized in many circumstances as apostate and you are also not

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Anglo Catholics that's very true Chris in the

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Church of England obviously it's such a mixed bag and you have to work with folk of all churchmanships as we call them and you know

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I've had a taste of just about everything that Anglicanism so called can offer and I've had to work through the various claims by different parties within the

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Church of England but at last after a lot of hard thinking and searching

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I've settled for if I can call it shorthand in terms of shorthand the

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Cranmer tradition. Well if anybody is interested in finding out more about St.

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Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama the websites are stm .weebly

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.com and you can also go to rogersalter .com

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and that's s -a -l -t -e -r rogersalter .com and if you are interested in finding out more

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I am really looking forward to this program today as I always am interviewing you.

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Tell us first of all about this structure this formula of Anglican faith scripture reason and tradition and first of all explain to our listeners whether or not you believe this should be jettisoned altogether or if there was a good godly and biblical intent behind the origins of that formula.

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There are non -Anglicans evangelicals and fundamentalists who sometimes criticize any use of that formula and I think it might be perhaps because they are misunderstanding it they may think that you are putting human reason and human tradition on the same plane or par or level of importance of scripture but explain in your own words this formula and how it came about.

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Well I don't hear so much about it now Chris I used to hear about it all the time in the Church of England with the various debates sometimes rather hot arguments between different churchmanships as to which best represents the

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Anglican heritage and tradition and I think there is originating with Richard Hooker an orthodox application of this formula the structure scripture reason and tradition which doesn't set reason against scripture and doesn't make tradition something entirely in the hands of human imagination and invention.

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Scripture is the absolute basis the infallible and trustworthy basis of our faith and its content.

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We are meant with God's gift of intelligence and rational minds to interpret scripture reasonably and to formulate tradition in a way that is consistent with all that the revelation of God reveals about himself and human nature.

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So I think reason and tradition as it were there is a word

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I want they are subject to scripture in every way it just means that with our minds that God has given us one man has a lovely term our redeemed minds our redeemed reason we interpret the word of God as faithfully as we can we are called upon to do that to take scripture to work our way through a comprehension of it that is an orthodox interpretation and then to translate all that we have gained from scripture into a tradition or a form of practice that is beneficial to the people of God develops their discipleship and their spirituality and also reaches out to commend

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Christ to others. So I think there is a very orthodox application of this formula which is usually traced back to Richard Hooker there is the old sort of image of the three legged stool of Anglicanism it rests on this stool of scripture reason and tradition and then most

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Anglicans don't understand it and they set reason and tradition at odds with scripture so it's a matter of getting back to what

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Hooker intended by this and I think what the reformed tradition within Anglicanism has always upheld that reverent use of our understanding our comprehension and that reverent adoption of traditions and practices and customs that are consonant with the word of God and the goodness of God and the benefit of his people.

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Now tell us some more details about Richard Hooker that is a name that has come up several times on my program and one in particular

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I can remember an angry Arminian Anglican said that my guests and I who were reformed

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Anglicans such as yourself it may have even been in response to one of your interviews I'm not certain but he was saying that we were misrepresenting

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Anglicanism as being historically reformed and he was attributing to Richard Hooker an idea known as the via media and even the idea that Anglicanism was even the via media as you are well aware has had two different interpretations within Anglicanism the one would be it is a midway attempt or approach between Protestantism and Catholicism in order to keep harmony between those two wings and yet there's another understanding of via media is that it's a midway approach between Calvinism and Lutheranism and if you could pick up where I left off there on Richard Hooker and the via media.

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Well I think Richard Hooker was definitely and firmly wary and wishing to avoid and warn against Roman error.

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I think there are two levels within Catholicism. There's Catholicism up until about the 9th or 10th century that was based on the ancient creeds a more free interpretation of scripture a very strong Augustinian lineage among the thinkers of the church and then you had the waywardness and falsehoods of Catholicism firmed up as being obligatory for Catholics to hold around about the 11th century the idea of what's the word

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I want for the communion, the Lord's Supper and the actual body and blood of Christ being in the element transubstantiation.

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These things were argued. There was a great variety of thought in the Catholic church until you know that medieval period and so I always differentiate between Catholicism that is derived from scripture and the creeds.

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It wasn't perfect throughout all those centuries. The church fathers weren't infallible but there was a general trend that was biblical and upheld the doctrine of sovereign grace as being something that was essential to our understanding of the way of salvation and then of course

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Catholicism hardened up and became full of superstition and erroneous teaching from that point on until the reformation.

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I think that what Hooker was concerned about was the destiny of true and humble believers during that reign of Roman Catholicism.

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Were they because of the doctrines they were taught disqualified from the kingdom or were there mitigating considerations that we ought to take into account that not everybody believed everything that was supposedly laid down as absolutely essential.

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There were all sorts of things both within humanity and I think the mercy of God that lays the blame on the false teachers more so than on those who had maybe a very instinctive and basic trust in the mercy of God and I think he was trying to say that although Rome had committed very serious errors it was not as if all truth had been erased and obliterated and God can protect his people's minds from that which is dangerous and he can enable them to perceive even if they can't articulate it what the saving truth of scripture is.

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So I think he was wanting to reassure people that salvation in the mercy of God was possible to those generations who were not aroused to that clear understanding of biblical teaching on how we are put right with God.

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But he was by no means a sympathizer towards Rome.

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I do not believe in the via media in those terms that you mentioned Chris. I do believe it is between Luther and Calvin and finding that way to give the reformation balance and expansiveness to all the doctrines that we find in scripture rediscovered.

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So I don't think and I have to say this off the top of my mind,

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I don't think there's any justification in Anglo -Catholicism or liberalism for appealing to Richard Hooker as their champion and I hope that this will become clear throughout the course of this interview.

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Okay why don't you specifically iron out in ways that you haven't mentioned yet how both leftists and Anglo -Catholics misuse

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Hooker's formula of scripture reason and tradition and we'll start with the leftists.

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Well you know the liberal tradition is very strong in England, especially in the academy and usually in the upper echelons of the ministry in the

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Church of England. They went through a bad patch after Bishop Robinson and his ascendancy because they failed in the parishes.

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Nobody thought that liberal Anglicanism had anything to offer in any way except a multiplicity of concerns and questions.

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They had nothing pastoral to present to the people but they still do exist and there's a renewed force of liberalism in England at the moment.

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I've been away for 24 years. I'm not close to it but I hear names of people and I see and hear broadcasts and read articles that show me that that kind, it's not even a, if I could put it, a respectable liberalism.

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It's very weak theology, scarcely theology at all, because these people don't really have a genuine grasp of God mentally or in the ascent of their hearts and it's purely destructive and I really think the

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Church of England, if the impressions I get, is on the verge of being a sunken vessel, that the ship of the

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Church of England is drowning and disappearing and I don't think liberals have anything to stand on in saying that they are followers of the tradition of Richard Hooker.

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Again, Scripture for him was absolutely the Word of God. It was authoritative.

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It reigned within the life of the Kingdom of God and God's Church and his people. Everything has to be referred back to Scripture and everything that we think, believe and do has to be in the best possible way derived from Scripture.

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So, Hooker started with Scripture as preeminent. The liberals don't.

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They can reason against it and some of them very cleverly and some of them boldly and most of them outrageously.

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There's nothing wrong with asking questions and putting the truth to the test, but these men,

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I wonder, you know, will they go so far that they are, I'm saying this on my own, off my own, always a little extreme, but I think they are wolves among the flock and there may be some who are honestly concerned about some of the things that the

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Church has always upheld as essential, but then I would say, until you have resolved these issues, what are you doing in the ministry?

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What are you doing in the pastoral office that you cannot operate or practice from the

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Word of God? So, liberalism, and I gave myself two years to study it.

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I didn't work on any of my evangelical assumptions. I didn't forsake them. I held to them, but I wanted to try and get in their boots and so for two years

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I put myself through an inquisition on what I believed. I tested liberalism.

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I'm not saying I'm a guide for anybody else and then I tested Catholicism also for a couple of years and went to Anglo -Catholic meetings and services and had

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Anglo -Catholic friends and again, I have to say this, Chris, I was going to be polite and reasonable, but I don't think there's any justification for liberalism or Anglo -Catholicism to be a part of the

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Anglican Church. I'm not judging people as to whether they're Christian or not. I'm just saying don't come into a church that has a constitution that is

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Reformational, Augustinian, and Calvinistic and then mess it up and compromise the message that as a church we're meant to be declaring in unity.

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So, one reads, I even read somewhere where Alistair McGrath defined a hooker as a sort of proto -Arminian.

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He was nothing of the sort. He was thoroughly Reformed and I mean just to say about this man, my detail for him is sparse.

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He was born in 1554 and died in 1600. He was born in Devon, a town called

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Heavytree near Exeter. He went through various forms of education and ultimately

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Corpus Christi College at Oxford. He lectured in various topics including

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Hebrew, but he's best known as the author of Laws of Ecclesiastical Polity and I just feel that most people who are not

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Reformed are in a sense twisting hooker to suit themselves.

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Everybody wants an expert to quote and he's the wrong man and I think like John Donne and others,

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I'm not saying anybody should possess them as their own entirely, but evangelicals have to reclaim their affinity with these great men in the

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Church of England who are usually defined as Anglo -Catholic. It's just not true.

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Now that's interesting that Alistair McGrath would hand over hooker to the

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Arminians. Isn't Alistair McGrath a Calvinist? Yes, he is and I was shocked.

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This is in his book, a sort of definitive definition and history of justification by faith.

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Now if I'm misquoting him, I apologize, but I read it, I was shocked, I checked it out, and I was going to save this up for a little later for this afternoon,

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Chris, but can I read a summary that Richard Hooker wrote?

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Oh yeah, definitely. This is what he wrote about the doctrine of election. This is what

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Richard Hooker wrote? Yes, it's absolutely his summary. It's Hooker's Elizabethan English, but I'll try and read it with as much clarity as I can summon.

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The author I'm quoting from is Daniel Epley. The article is in the

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Reformation Theologians, edited by Carter Lindbergh.

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It's about a six page coverage of Hooker as a Reformed theologian.

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As people examine his sermons and his papers more thoroughly, they discover that this is incontrovertible.

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And so Epley says, summarizing his position on predestination in terms similar to the

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Lambeth articles, Hooker asserted, one, that God has predestined certain men, not all men.

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Two, that the cause moving him here unto was not the foresight of any virtue in us at all.

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Three, that to him the number of his elect is definitely known. Four, that it cannot be but their sins must condemn them, to whom the purpose of his saving mercy does not extend.

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That to God's foreknown elect the final continuance of grace is given. Six, that inward grace, whereby to be saved, is deservedly not given unto all men.

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Seven, that no man comes to Christ, whom God, by the inward grace of his spirit, draws not.

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Eight, that it is not in every, no, not in any man's own ability, freedom, and power to be saved.

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No man's salvation impossible without grace. And I'll save up the other quotes until a little bit later.

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How on earth can anybody be knowledgeable about Richard Hooker, unless that is an obscure quote somewhere?

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How could Alistair McGrath, who is a fairly brilliant man, how could he not know this about Hooker's theology?

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You could not be more clear that you are a Calvinist if you mentioned any of those things that you listed.

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You couldn't get beyond the first one and be an Arminian, or make Arminians happen. No. It's inconceivable.

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But you see, the Carolinian, you know, the theologians who were in alliance with William Lord after the removal of the, you know, confirmed

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Calvinistic clergy and episcopacy, after that had gone, it opened up the way for other men to be more expansive in what they thought and counter the reformational views of the

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Church of England, turn them into something Pelagian or even legalistic, you know, law keeping for salvation and that kind of thing.

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So he's definitely been useful because people have either misunderstood him or deliberately wanted to distort what he taught.

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And I find this anywhere. I find all these so -called experts and university professors.

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I go through a book before I buy it. I look up the index and I see what they say. And there isn't one.

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And I have very limited knowledge. I'm not claiming to be vastly, you know, educated in these things.

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But just to say the things that you do happen to know and are verified, so many of the experts get them wrong.

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I read one recently that came from Oxford that said Zwingli never taught predestination.

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Well, goodness me. You know, these things are outright falsehoods. And don't they check their books and don't their editors make sure that as much as possible the facts that they relate or what they present as facts are verifiable and true?

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So, you know, I worry sometimes when people pick up these books that have these fantastic recommendations from fellow academics just how many people are being misled in subtle ways.

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Well, unfortunately, somebody that you and I uphold as a hero of the faith in many ways, somebody that we've both been blessed enormously by, the late

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J .I. Packer, you have to be very careful about reading and embracing the contents of a book that he has endorsed because he endorsed a lot of different stuff, some of it which is clearly heretical and just, it makes you scratch your head why he would attach his name to some of the things that he endorsed.

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I think it teaches us that we have to exercise extreme care in what we read and what we accede to and agree with.

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Nobody's infallible and I don't think we should make heroes or deities out of our scholars and academics.

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The one man I find who always spoke and wrote in understandable

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English without in any way showing off was John Stott. So many others seem to want to impress you with their vocabulary and their way in which they weave their arguments like poets with a harp instead of getting down and there's nothing wrong with being eloquent, but let's get the truth right and make it plain and clear.

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And we have to go to our first station break if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for my dear friend

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Roger Salter. Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. And that was the unmistakable voice of my guest today,

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Roger Salter whom I am always thrilled to interview, and today is no exception.

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We are discussing the Anglican structure of faith, scripture, reason, and tradition, and its abuse by both the left and the

39:03

Anglo -Catholics, and the need to reclaim Richard Hooker. If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

39:18

USA. We have Bruce from Hoover, Alabama. Chris and Roger, thank you for this dialogue.

39:25

I respectfully submitted a statement point, followed by a question that I'd like you all to comment on.

39:33

Point. The apostate leftist Anglicans and the Roman Papist Anglicans will never stop their destructive quests and bad ungodly works.

39:44

Question. Why don't real Anglicans just leave them both to burn down their pieces of the

39:50

Anglican church? Why don't real Anglicans just rename their church and continue to worship 1662 prayer book, 39 articles.

40:00

Call it what you want, the 39 articles Christian church, the Cranmerian church of Jesus Christ, church of reformed

40:07

Anglo -Saxons. Let these two corrupt and destructive sects have the word

40:15

Anglican to themselves. We continue on with a name change.

40:24

Best regards, Bruce from Hoover, Alabama. Well, obviously you better not name it the church of reformed

40:30

Anglo -Saxons since that's referring to an ethnic group and people might think you're a white supremacist organization.

40:36

But anyway, your thoughts on Bruce's comments and his question.

40:46

Well, there are definitely people who think along these lines of forming a definitely reformational

40:53

Anglicanism. I think they still feel that they can work within certain denominational structures.

41:01

Chris, there are movements in worldwide Anglicanism and I can never think of their names, how they're described, that are working for a restoration of scriptural supremacy of scripture among Anglicans.

41:18

There are smaller groups, there's an international group. You have various new developments within Anglicanism.

41:26

The split is there, but not yet fully institutionally and what will be the ultimate outcome,

41:34

I don't know. There's no doubt about it that at the moment in much of Anglicanism, the officialdom, the diocesan and provincial authorities, there is a tendency to gross apostasy and the settlement of this issue is going to come ultimately but I don't know in what form but it is a desperate need that Anglicanism needs to return to its heritage.

42:11

It must reclaim its scriptural constitution and it must recognize its allies and champions that have been claimed by other elements within the church.

42:23

What one would say about Hooker is the same as John Donne. His theology was equivalent to the theology of the

42:31

Puritans on the matter of salvation. The differences were on the matter of liturgy and worship and polity, church polity.

42:41

So you see Reformation Anglicans need to look a little bit more broadly with those who are their allies.

42:51

We've let other groups sort of, I'm not saying we want to be possessive or say you can't benefit from this man or that man's example or teaching but I'm saying when

43:02

I was in Australia in Anglicanism I never heard an Anglican of the reformed type refer to Hooker or John Donne but they are supremely on the side of Biblical Christianity and we need to reclaim them and others of the same ilk and we have to revivify the heritage that we have received and probably has gotten a little stale and clichetic but we need that revival of our knowledge of Christ in our hearts and our interior ascent to his truth and not just something that is verbal and doctrinal.

43:41

That's important but you get the feeling sometimes that we're swapping words all the time that aren't reflected with reality in our own personal beings.

43:53

The Christ we claim is the Christ within through the Holy Spirit and he is our teacher and that's what

44:00

I believe particularly about tradition in the Church of England is that we must gain a sense of the

44:06

Spirit through reading the word and looking at God's character and goodness and saying what we adopt and do, is it consonant with that goodness?

44:15

Does it glorify God? Encourage holiness and bring us nearer to him in our ministries and pastoral care?

44:23

So I scrambled for a book, Chris, I'm rambling, I'm sorry I scrambled for a book before we started and found it and my pile of books collapsed on the floor.

44:38

I haven't been organized for a little while and the idea is, I don't have enough shows, that's the problem, but it's a book by Edward Norman who was a very fair and reliable spokesman in the

44:51

Church of England back in the 70s and 80s and one of his recent books was

44:58

Anglican Difficulties a New Syllabus of Errors Edward Norman and he eventually became a

45:05

Catholic because he thought that Anglicanism had no unity or principle of authority because they had abandoned the articles in the

45:15

Book of Common Prayer I wouldn't think that Edward Norman was Calvinistic but he's a fair assessor and he says about the shakiness of Anglicanism, all his predictions are coming true because this book is a decade or two old now, but it says thus it must be noted you think this the

45:38

Church, its wobbliness and fragility is in considerable contrast to its noble past and its once steadfast adhesion to its own tradition of Christian understanding that was it is true a thoroughly

45:53

Protestant tradition as reference to the articles of religion and in the homilies will make plain and then he goes on to say that the foundation theology of the

46:05

Church of England is definitely Calvinist compare the articles of religion with the

46:12

Westminster Confession of Faith there's a man who can be honest he's not pretending his sympathies have taken him towards Catholicism because of his desire for authority but the

46:24

Church of England has abandoned its authority and uh I'm sorry to interrupt you but obviously that that is a bizarre well

46:34

I guess he probably converted to Catholicism prior to Pope Francis because there is no way that a

46:42

Catholic could feel safe thinking that they have a safe shepherd and guide in Pope Francis if they are indeed historically

46:54

Catholic so that excuse I'd be interested to hear what this author has to say today after I mean all

47:07

Popes have had very serious problems and I think all Popes are serious heretics but but Pope Francis just defies explanation and is far beyond in embracing the heresies that he has embraced than any other previous

47:31

Pope but anyway I'm sorry for interrupting that's alright Chris I just think that Willoughby and Pope Francis have the same disease to a different measure and um you know it's a great pity that both denominations are so wrongly misled but um you know

47:52

Edward Newman was a very reliable man, a respected commentator, wrote for the great newspapers in Britain, was on the

48:00

BBC but he's a reliable and honest commentator and I would think somewhere,

48:05

I'm not saying in terms of a weakness or vulnerability, but I think he went to Rome out of a need for security because there was none in the teaching of the

48:15

Church of England he does admit that it was Calvinistic and it was a fine heritage I don't know if he's

48:22

Augustinian at heart or not Chris but at least what he says is very valuable it's a very profound insight into the catastrophe that the

48:32

Church of England is now passing through and he predicted twenty years ago We have

48:40

John in Bangor, Maine who wants to know have you ever read or heard of the book

48:45

Richard Hooker and the Via Media by Philip Secor and I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly

48:55

S -E -C -O -R Yes Have you ever heard of this book and is it worth reading?

49:02

I have and I have Philip Secor's compilation of some of Hooker's sermons

49:08

I've read of his book I don't think I agree with his emphasis or interpretation of Hooker, I can't see that the things

49:19

I've cited today permit us to have that view of Hooker He was a reformed theologian

49:25

I mean as Ian Brouard who was very savvy about previous figures in the history of the

49:32

Church in his article in an encyclopedia a dictionary of Christian theology says that Hooker adopted an independent reformed position on matters like predestination assurance and judgement of Rome He was obviously not in agreement with what he would think was militant puritanism but in terms of salvation theology soteriology he was at one with Calvin his recommendation and impression of Calvin was very very positive

50:12

Calvin was a great authority for him and there's another interesting book

50:20

I would recommend in preference to Sekou and that is Phillip Edgcombe Hughes book where he harmonizes

50:28

Kramer and Hooker on justification it's called Faith and Works and it was published by Morehouse in this country which

50:36

I understand was an Anglican publisher and I have three quick quotes that I underline today

50:44

Chris if I'm not going too far in fact you know what I'd like you to do I'd like you to cite those quotations when we return from our midway break oh sure sure

50:55

Chris if anybody would like to join us on the air if you'd like to get in line there are others waiting to have their questions asked and answered but if you'd like to get in line our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

51:07

c h r i s a r n z e n gmail .com city and state of residence and country of residence if you live outside the

51:16

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away we'll be right back oh and by the way folks this is the longer than normal break so please be patient with us

51:26

Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they are required by the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and all of their programming geographically to Lake City Florida while they do that we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials so please use this time wisely respond to as many of our advertisers as you possibly can whether you are purchasing their products using their services or supporting their parachurch organizations when you can't do any of those please at the very least respond to our advertisers by thanking them for sponsoring the show because the finances that come through these ad campaigns that you hear are what keeps us on the air next to the grace of God we cannot survive without our advertisers we would go off the air without them barring a financial miracle of God so please support our advertisers and at the very least respond to them and thank them so write down the information they provide so that you may be more likely to successfully respond to them and frequently respond to them so do that and also send in questions to rogersalter at chrisarnsen at gmail .com

53:05

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USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away, we'll be right back battleship one another as we're walking in the light hello dear ones my name is justin peters and my friend chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio and i are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the united states we'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the g3 conference in atlanta georgia thursday september 30th through saturday october the 2nd on the theme christ is supreme over all i'll be speaking there along with over 20 other speakers including john mccarthur, phil johnson vody balkum, joel beakey and james white for details visit g3conference .com

54:09

that's g the number 3 conference dot com please join chris arnzen and me on saturday september 30th through october the 2nd at g3 2021 this is justin peters reminding you that christ is supreme over all fellowshiping with the family when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm pastor nate pickowitz of harvest bible church in gilminton ironworks new hampshire and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor rich jensen of hope reform baptist church in quorum new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor suley prince of oakwood wesleyan church in toronto ontario canada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor john samson of kings church in peoria arizona and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck volo of new life community church in kingsville maryland and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor steve herford of east fort baptist church in jacksonville florida and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor roy owens junior of the church in friendship in hockley texas and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

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This is pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

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I think, yes, absolutely. Go ahead. Okay. I was going to say,

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Yes, so you could go to solid -ground -books .com, solid -ground -books .com, if you are specifically looking for the books that I mentioned, you could type in T -Y -N -G in the search engine, and then when you're finished ordering those books, you could type in the search engine

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By the way, is it Mechelvini or Mechelvain? Mechelvain, I believe. Okay, well

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Before I return to my guest Roger Salter, as we continue our fascinating discussion today on,

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I think, a very important topic, because of the fact that there are many today that are sadly misrepresenting historic

01:08:51

Anglicanism, we are discussing the Anglican structure of faith, scripture, reason, and tradition that has been nicknamed the three -legged stool of Anglicanism, and its abuse by both the left and the

01:09:06

Anglo -Catholics, and the need to reclaim Richard Hooker. But before we return to that discussion,

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I just have a couple of more announcements. First of all, thank you, all of you who have been contacting me, asking me for updates on my oldest brother

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John, who is 76, who has cancer, who has critical stage emphysema, an inoperable aneurysm, and now pneumonia, and he is in a skilled nursing facility in Denton, Texas.

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I am very encouraged by my brother's private messages to me lately through Messenger on Facebook, where he has been mentioning the

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Lord, where he has assured me he is turning to the Lord daily, and has been much more

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Christocentric in his language with me than he had been in the past.

01:10:08

I just ask of you not only for continued prayers about his physical healing, but continued evidence and even more crystal clear evidence that he has truly embraced the true gospel.

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I would very much appreciate those prayers. Also, folks, I think that many of you will be interested in tuning in tomorrow.

01:10:31

I mean, you should be tuning in every day to IronSharpen's Iron Radio, but if you tune in tomorrow, especially if you are in the

01:10:40

PCA, Presbyterian Church in America, not exclusively, but especially if you are in that denomination,

01:10:48

I think that you are going to find it fascinating to hear my discussion with William F.

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Hill, that's F as in Frank, Hill, pastor of Providence Church in Evansville, Indiana, which is a congregation in the

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PCA, Presbyterian Church in America, and a blogger at theparchment .net,

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theparchment .net. We are discussing the controversial PCA General Assembly and getting one conservative

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PCA pastor's assessment on that. So mark your calendars for tomorrow for that broadcast.

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That's also the email address where you could send in a question to Roger Salter as we continue our discussion on the

01:16:01

Anglican structure of faith, scripture, reason and tradition and its abuse by both the left and the

01:16:07

Anglo -Catholics and the need to reclaim Richard Hooker. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:16:13

chrisarnsen at gmail .com and you are just about to quote one of your favorite authors

01:16:22

I believe who has written about Hooker if I'm not mistaken who in your opinion has one of the best and most accurate views of Hooker historically.

01:16:37

Yes, I hope I'm not quoting too much from two favorite books on Hooker.

01:16:42

No no no you don't have to ever worry about that brother it's a two -hour show. Okay it's just that other churchmanships within Anglicanism that are not reformational or broadly evangelical tend to denigrate and be dismissive of crown man and they say of course the great representative theologian of Anglicanism is

01:17:08

Hooker. Now these two men are so compatible in terms of their theology and approach to pastoral care and outreach for the kingdom and Philip H.

01:17:21

Cumulus has produced this book back in the 80s entitled Faith and Works Cranmer and Hooker on Justification and they are completely at one in their theology and to my mind

01:17:36

I'm not wanting to set up any competition whatsoever between these two giants of Anglicanism but simply to say that Hooker in no way departs from the convictions of Thomas Cranmer and Hooker.

01:17:53

This particular book I've got three quotes and I hope they're not too many two of them are quite brief and then there's a slightly longer one

01:18:02

I think about imputed righteousness from Hooker and of course some of the leading best -known theologians of Anglicanism in our time deny that wonderful reality of imputed righteousness they distort the doctrine of justification

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I won't mention any names but it's frightening to me how people come under the so called evangelical umbrella and deny the essential key doctrines

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I'll call them of justification atonement and divine election and they seem to be giving a free license to do and say what they want to in contradiction of the gospel this is the trouble with this idea that reason and human invention can be pitted against the sovereign and supreme place of scripture in the life of the believer the skepticism which becomes a replacement of the sovereign word of God both in the church's mind and behavior so just back to Hughes treatment of Hooker and Cranmer together they're brothers in the faith they should never be separated and here's one that I'll just read its content will become clear as I read since no man is justified except he believe and no man believeth except he have faith and no man hath faith unless he have received the spirit of adoption for as much as these do necessarily infer justification but justification doth of necessity presuppose them we must need to hold that imputed righteousness in dignity being the chief that's the essence of the gospel my sin laid blame upon Christ and his righteousness donated to me

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I'm saying that as a representative of all convinced sinners he speaks of the heresy of free will there's a millstone around the

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Pelagian's neck and then the longer quotation if I could do that Chris he says how then is our salvation wrought by Christ alone is it our meaning that nothing is requisite to man's salvation but Christ to save and he to be saved quietly without any more to do no we acknowledge no such foundation as we have received so we teach that besides the bare and naked work wherein

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Christ without any other associate finished all the parts of our redemption and purchased salvation himself alone for conveyance of this eminent blessing unto us many things are required as to be known and chosen of God before the foundation of the world in the world to be called justified sanctified after we have left the world to be received into glory

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Christ in every one of these at something which he worketh alone through him according to the eternal purpose of God before the foundation of the world born crucified buried raised etc we were in gracious acceptation known unto

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God long before we were seen of men God knew us loved us was kind towards us in Christ Jesus in him we were elected to be the heirs of life there's no arminianism there and there's no sacramentalism there either um it is clear as clear could be that he was a reformational theologian now where are people especially somebody as well studied and as brilliant as alastair mcgrath where are they getting the idea that hooker was an arminian i really don't know i wonder if they're influenced by people who are not so familiar with the essential ideas of hooker or they are in some way uh bemused by these people their authority their their rank in the academy i don't know or just a plain misunderstanding i am very sure that what i said because i was horrified when i read that comment in mcgrath i would have thought that he would have fully endorsed hooker as a reformational theologian uh i mean um daniel epley says that hooker is the reform theologian that's how he's going to present him i can't see anything that makes it worthwhile to attempt to dispute that conclusion and i feel it's such a misuse of hooker to um introduce this idea of reason as a clash with scripture and in anglo -catholicism to put tradition against scripture or equate its authority and make it above scripture there's so much abuse of this formula attributed to richard hooker and reform theology needs to reclaim him and make the case clear um from daniel epley there's a lovely quote on uh hooker and the matter of um the uh imputed righteousness of christ i think that's what i want um i was assembling the evidence today and just hoping that i could put it together in an orderly form but um while you're looking i'll give i'll give our email address chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com is the email address if you have a question you'd like to ask of roger salter uh that's chris arnzen gmail .com

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give us your first name city and state and country of residence i'm sorry roger that's all right chris um this is uh daniel epley writing and then he quotes hooker uh the key to salvation was justifying righteousness alone and this was attained solely through faith this is hooker christ has merited righteousness for as many as are found in him in him god finds us if we be faithful for by faith we are incorporated into him and then he says the faithful person mrs hooker even the man who in himself is impious full of iniquity full of sin him being found in christ through faith and having his sin in hatred through repentance him god beholds with a gracious puts away his sin by not imputing it and accepts him in jesus christ as perfectly righteous as if he had fulfilled all that has commanded him in the law this key understanding of righteousness by faith through the imputation of christ's virtue and recondite nature and behavior to us is our qualification for acceptance with god and uh this business of um seeing of pitting uh reason against scripture and enabling the human mind in its imagination and its invention to clash with the revealed truth of god this is what is killing anglicanism specifically and and much of the church in our time we are no longer submissive to the word of god and when we talk of uh tradition and reason we are saying that these are subservient to the word of god not rivals not competitive certainly not in contention with scripture as our principal authority for belief and behavior so assuming that the leftists most often use uh as a from that three -legged stool they use reason as their excuse for their apostasy of course they would never claim to be apostates themselves but they elevate reason over scripture and in the case of the anglo catholics they are more prone to elevate tradition am i right yes absolutely to varying degrees of course but um you know this abuse of the formula that hooker is attributed with is the gateway to ritual and ceremonial excesses in the church and to glaring contradictions of the faith and it excludes the formula of hooker excludes any non -reformed interpretation of the word of god in the anglican church i'm not saying other people aren't christians i've known many people in various other categories of of christian spirituality and faith whom i believe at heart are true believers chris our minds don't always match our hearts where the heart is really dependent on god whatever we articulate with our lips and understand with our minds i know that's open to abuse that that charitable thought too but you know anglicanism has to not only survive but in order to be useful has to return to its constitution and uh you know reform theology needs to reclaim hooker john dunn and many other of that kind that have been regarded as friends and even fathers of other trends within the church the anglican church now let me have you clarify something um when you were saying i am not necessarily uh denouncing those outside of the reformed tradition of anglicanism as being a non -christian or not christians don't you need to clarify that because i'll give you an example one of the most notorious uh examples of this and of course he was in the episcopal church usa but there's still obviously an inseparable connection between anglicanism church of england and the episcopal church but bishop spong the man clearly was uh in my opinion and in fact i think it is obvious to any regenerate person he was so much an enemy of the true christ and true gospel of the scriptures and an enemy of the scriptures themselves even though he claims to love them and read them daily since his youth of course uh using a cafeteria style where he just picks things that he likes and discards everything else to say that we may embrace someone like that as a brother isn't that just totally out of the question yes i wouldn't entertain that thought for a moment chris there are some people who are so apostate and so opposed to the gospel of christ and their hearts are filled with animosity and towards him i'm thinking more of people who are misled mistaught misunderstood and who have misunderstood i mean and whose hearts at the very depth of their being are leaning on the mercy of god i know i'm walking in in territory that can be easily misunderstood and and i can't explain myself fully i believe the reformed faith is the only legitimate uh interpretation of the word of god and the gospel but in the same way for example i can't think of the author of that book long before luther uh chris nathan business who i've had on the program yes who cites from um people since the church fathers through to prior to the reformation who have a strong and clear understanding of the grace of god it's sovereignty its power uh it's it's a matter of being the sole energy that regenerates and restores and saves lost sinners uh and yet we would say that there would be some elements in their understanding because of their position that we would strongly disagree with but um they were in the end thoroughly augustinian men of god it was in the way for example that calvin and luther quoted augustine more than any other church father and then bernard of clairvaux and so you get these people who are on the way to you know somebody else wrote a wonderful article about thomas aquinas being basically a man on the way to becoming an evangelical they're holding to certain things that we would disapprove of but it doesn't quash their fundamental attitude to sin and salvation and the redeemer himself uh let's see we have rj in white plains new york who says i have heard some try to claim thomas cranmer as a sacerdotalist and make him far more romish than he actually was have you heard this claim and what are your thoughts on this claim i have heard the claim chris of course i would disclaim its truth its accuracy in the same way that we see booker as a decidedly reformed theologian so was cranmer i don't know how people read these things into the minds and works of these reformational anglicans i just don't know what is governing them unless they were reading something by cremer after he for that brief period of his life out of fear of execution converted to catholicism and renounced protestantism and then of course uh the good news eventually came not that he was executed but that he was willing to be executed uh for renouncing his recantation and and standing firm on the reform principles that he originally believed and which led him to his death and that that beautiful picture of him thrusting his hand into the flame the hand that signed his recantation of protestantism thrusting into the flame i don't believe at heart he did recant i believe he was gripped by fear the poor man was ill treated for months on end you know confined with two spanish priests indoctrinating him taunting him pressurizing him um you know the man was just overcome physically and mentally and his recantation was a way of expressing his fear and his dread of the circumstances he didn't lose his faith it was something that faded under the pressures of the time and it was reawakened before he even got to the stake and he beat everybody else to the stake when they were going to burn him alive so there's no you know um cram removed from the catholic the roman view of the lord's supper to a swindling view and then to a calvinistic view he was one with john calvin on his comprehension of the lord's supper in fact i just want to uh i want to read a couple of the articles out of the 39 articles that were drafted by thomas crammer and it baffles me how anybody could say that he was romish uh or of course if they were defending him or claiming him as an anglo -catholic they wouldn't use the word romish themselves but uh the uh the 20 the 22nd article of the 39 articles purgatory he states the romish doctrine concerning purgatory pardons worshiping and adoration as well of images as of relics and also invocation of saints is a fond thing vainly invented and grounded upon no warranty of scripture but rather repugnant to the word of god and then the 23rd article uh it is uh let's see i think i may have chosen the wrong article that i wanted to cite um the uh 25th article on the sacraments and let me enlarge this if you don't mind roger i hope i'm not taking too much of your time i have to enlarge this but um the uh 25th article out of the 39 articles written by cramner or drafted by him uh let's see here on the sacraments the sacraments ordained of christ be not only badges or tokens of christian men's professions but rather they be certain sure witnesses and effectual signs of god's goodwill towards us by the which he doth work invisibly in us and if not only quicken but also strengthen and confirm our faith in him there are two sacraments ordained by christ our lord in the gospel that is to say baptism and the supper of the lord those five commonly called sacraments that is to say confirmation penance orders matrimony and extreme unction are not to be counted for sacraments of the gospel being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the apostles partly are states of life allowed in the scriptures but yet have not like nature of the sacraments with baptism in the lord's supper for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of god the sacraments were not here's the the key here that would blow anglo -catholicism out of the water the sacraments were not ordained of christ to be gazed upon or to be carried about but that we should duly use them in such only as worthily receive the same they have a wholesome effect or operation but they that receive them on worthy purchase to themselves damnation as saint paul say it so i think that i don't know how anybody uh who has a cursory knowledge of the 39 articles i'm not even an anglican and when i hear of thomas kramer being accused of anglo -catholicism or romishness that's just me insanity well to my mind chris that's a wishful thinking and bad propaganda and when i think about the way the teaching of the reformers is twisted and distorted by many people i look at the fact of confusion being the work of the enemy just to muddy the waters and confuse people's minds and unsettle their faith and that article that you read is the cancellation of bad tradition um you know something that has no warrant it's not consonant with the word of god you can't derive that particular point of view and practice from scripture and um i'm afraid this kind of thing happens a lot that you know people try to damage confidence in some of these men of of god who are instrumental in forming um you know for our united confession uh the content of the faith i i i think the enemy is very active and even through unguarded believers who are not disciplined enough in mind and understanding to ever achieve a clear view of some of the most basic doctrines it's not something we can commend ourselves for because as we know any glimpse of the truth is through the illumination of the holy spirit so it's keeping close to god close to his word and with humble dependence upon the spirit of god that we come to the slightest understanding okay we have mike from monroe new york who says the anglican church has been described as having a calvinistic soteriology an armenian clergy and a roman catholic liturgy i would love to hear our brother comment on this rather humorous but very true statement i i think that you would have exception to labeling this as a true statement um but in fact in fact i wish the anglican church had a reputation of having a calvinistic soteriology because i happen to know that my friend roger here seems to be a part of a remnant in anglo and anglicanism that still holds to a calvinist soteriology unless he is speaking of the fact that for centuries i don't know if they've discontinued it but even the episcopal church usa if i'm not mistaken they used didn't they not used to and maybe still do i don't know at least formally have uh ordained ministers uh given allegiance to the 39 articles or is that something that is no longer in practice well they are supposed to but most of the provinces in the anglican communion have weighed that as an essential vow for clergy to take uh some they don't subscribe to the articles others uh confess the articles but have no intention of abiding by them and um it's very rare for ordained people now to really mean that subscription to the articles chris i would say that business about an armenian clergy a calvinistic uh theology and a catholic um liturgy is plausible hardly true at various times but definitely not true as a guideline to understanding anglicanism every anglican minister should be reformational i'm clear on that that's essential i know that most of my friends are semi -pelagian or armenian um as was wesley i know that some people work the prayer book in a particular way but it suits their catholic probabilities but it is a very protestant uh liturgy if you read what one of the greatest uh anglo -catholic liturgiologists said he said and i think it was not jasper i think it was another man whose name i can't recall that the services that um uh kramer devised were the best services and perhaps the only services uh for a long period of history that were designed to show forth the doctrine of justification by faith and uh i think there's so many statements that people make that become proverbial and everybody adopts them but they are fundamentally false and um people need to read the prayer book it's thoroughly augustinian people need to read the articles most anglicans don't even know they're there and you know as for scripture i don't know if you've heard the joke about a fellow who never read the bible but he used to go to church every week and listen to the liturgy and somebody showed him the bible and they said he said gosh there are lots of quotes from the prayer book in here we have to get our we have to get our final break if you want to pick up where you left off there roger okay chris if anybody wants to join us now is your time to do it or forever hold your peace because we're wrapping rapidly running out of time chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com is our email address give us your first name at least sydney and state of residence and country of residence don't go away we'll be right back with roger salter hi i'm phil johnson host and executive director of grace to you the media ministry of john mccarthur i hope you plan to join me and chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio for the g3 conference in atlanta georgia thursday september 30th through saturday october 2nd the theme this year is christ is supreme over all my friend chris arnson and i will be joined by several of our other friends including voddie balcom justin peters daryl bernard harrison virgil walker and james white more than 20 other speakers will be joining us and the lineup this includes my pastor john mccarthur for details visit g3 conference .com

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that's g3 conference .com chris arnson and i hope to see you september 30th through october 2nd at g3 2021 this is phil johnson reminding you that christ is supreme overall when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr joe moorcraft pastor of heritage presbyterian church in cumming georgia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm anthony eugenio founder of the reform rookie .com

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that's historicalbiblesociety .org thanks for helping to keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air anchored in truth ministries is the mission arm of grace life church of the shoals based in alabama it supports missionaries in over 13 countries around the world anchored in truth is in partnership with 36 church plants as well as radio stations theological seminaries and various programs for unreached people groups within so many different contexts globally as worldwide visit anchoredintruth .org

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welcome back roger some might be wondering why we are dedicating a two -hour program to basically redeeming or reclaiming the reputation and the legacy and teaching of someone that lived centuries ago what value does this have what we are doing today if you could express in your own words why you think this does have value and why it was you actually that that shows our theme yes i think to look accurately at the life and ministry of hooker is to remove many abuses and false notions that people have in their mind especially anglicans as to the faith of this man and the insight that he had and the essence of the gospel that he represented i think a lot of people need to review their assessment of hooker and we need to get him right it's it's a matter of the that the perception of hooker has to be altered because so many with a slender knowledge of him quote him as a reliable authority for the wrong reasons and i think at the same time we benefit like any of the great saints of god in the past from the way in which he his rendition of the gospel his presentation of the faith the uh the content of what he believes and how much it fortifies our faith and informs our minds and strengthens our holiness before god and our faithfulness to him i think that he is instrumental in introducing us to the nature and uh work of the grace of god understanding how salvation is wrought and gained so i don't think it's a waste of time i think it's a way of correcting people perhaps who are not analytical in what they receive and hear and receive a distorted impression of the man and then carry that impression with them thereafter without being exposed to the truth that is both saving and sanctifying for the individual believer um and i think the church has to be honest and take hooker for the man that he was and not how people dream of him or present him and that anglicanism to survive and useful it must return to its constitution in the articles the prayer book uh the book of of homilies these are the things on which anglicanism is founded and any distortion of biography or history or teaching is dangerous it can have disastrous effects if people pursue it consistently so i believe chris that um this formula has often been misused it was meant to establish the supremacy of the word of god reason directed from the word of god and tradition derived from the word of god so that in everything there is a consonance with the divine revelation that we have it's part of our duty before god and of creating our well -being as polite believers and bringing a step to life in the truth i think one of the values of having conversations like this also is that many evangelicals and even many reformed christians perhaps more so among your average church member rather than those who have been trained in seminary but many are ignorant of the invaluable the the powerful the glorious contribution to christian literature and teaching that has come historically from the anglican church and uh i think that people should be introduced to that they are being robbed of very precious resources when they are unfamiliar or unexposed to men like hooker and others and i think that this program should be used on occasion as a as a platform to introduce people to teachers that they may not otherwise have known about in fact if the bible is very strict in regard to its qualifications for teachers i don't think that that is only speaking about living teachers although it primarily is i think that uh we should we would be foolish not to take advantage of great teachers from the past as well as from the present yes absolutely absolutely we are ministered to by our predecessors in the faith and what i think about the so -called um three -legged stool of anglicanism is that it's saying our doctrine should be biblical and our explanation of that doctrine and our practice of that doctrine should all be clearly divinely ordered and um that's the aspiration of hooker i think it should be the aspiration of every anglican and forgive me for being a little dogmatic here but there is no scope with an original constitutional reformational anglican for any other view but the augustinian calvinistic i'll say vermilion peter vermigli who i think is up there with calvin as a reformer and had so much influence on the shape of the church of england in its doctrine and liturgy i don't think there is room for any other alternative and uh the sooner the church gets back not being nasty or contentious or superior or pompous but just saying we must live by the pure truth of god as much as is possible not to be ugly to people not to be unpleasant or assertive and confrontational but to say we love god we love his truth we love the savior we want them to be glorified in what we affirm and we want people to trust in them as as the triune god has presented to us and to enjoy him and glorify him forever through the truth that he has revealed to us it's such a privilege to hold these doctrines amen and your websites are stm anglican .weebly

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.com stm an abbreviation for saint matthews anglican w -e -e -b -l -y .com

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and also roger salter .com s -a -l -t -e -r is the last name roger salter .com