Review of a Critic of the Cessationist Film

Okay, so you're saying that because you read the Bible for 20 years and meditate upon it.

No one has done that.

May be done that but Certainly, I am among the top 1 who spend

that much of meditation and reading scriptures.

So that you are saying I I just came up with some Opinion and then I

try to find it on the scriptures.

It's not like that.

Okay.

I have a question.

Does your arm hurt?

No, no, because I mean you're patting yourself on the back so much.

I was afraid your arm might hurt.

You know.

Did you did you know that pride is a sin.

It's actually.

Okay, I know I know all that shaming tactics.

No, it's not a shaming tactic.

You just praise yourself.

Yeah, Paul says you're in the you're in the top percent of all Christians in the world.

It's not you should be ashamed.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity

ministries.

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with being in the top 1 of all the Christians in the world that's not prideful at all, I'm

sure.

Welcome to apologetics live.

I'm your host Andrew.

Rap.

We're glad to be back here in another Thursday evening here to answer your most challenging

questions about God in the Bible.

I Can answer any question you have about God in the Bible if you doubt

that.

Bring me your most challenging question.

Go to apologetics live.

Calm.

Scroll down to the little duck icon for stream yard.

Click on that.

Join us and give me your best shot.

Just remember one thing.

I Don't know is a perfectly good answer.

And with that, let me bring in.

Mr. Drew von Nita.

How are you, sir?

I'm doing well.

I'm doing well another Thursday and I'm back here this time.

My wife's not working.

So I don't have To have control of the little ones and try to do a show at the same time.

But I'm excited you're here for two weeks in a row.

Hey.

I'm setting a record that so we do want to be thankful that you welcomed us

into your kitchen.

Yeah, no problem.

I'm happy for everyone to be here.

This is the kitchen is the new family room of the house, right?

We want everyone to be in the kitchen and we have a really big kitchen.

For for a double wide.

I mean this kitchen is huge.

Well good good.

I'm gonna bring.

We got a special guest backstage.

I'm gonna bring him in and we're gonna be reviewing a review of the cessationist film.

So but before we get to that, let's talk about the cessationist film.

It'd be good to get someone that knows something about it.

What is a little bit?

I mean, I think I think he's got just a tiny bit of insider knowledge.

Well, let's find out.

Mr. Les Lansphere.

My friend.

How are you, sir?

Hey.

Hey, thanks for having me.

I do know I do know a little bit about the movie.

Yeah.

Ask me your toughest question about the cessationist movie.

How many times have you seen it?

Small pieces.

No, that's the dirty seat.

Well, there's a fun part at the end making a movie that Documentaries or

whatever whatever it is that I do.

Every morning you have to wake up in the morning and watch the entire thing.

Take notes and then you work on those notes throughout the day render it out at night.

Then you watch it again.

So for probably two months.

I watched it every single day.

If not multiple times a day.

You see you love your work.

I never want to see it again.

Yes, you know I have a question about that as someone who does movies

documentaries films going Putting it together Directing it

and then doing all the editing the the time it takes to do the editing.

I mean, it's a very very long process, right?

I mean, we're talking a year at the least and Probably a lot more.

Yeah.

About two years for the entire movie about a year and a half that I was involved in and sort of those meticulous details.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So once it's done, are you are you just finally glad like you're just like, okay.

Like do you get to a point to where you're like, okay.

I've watched my favorite movie so much.

I'm sick of it.

Yeah.

Well, this is a little window into my own psyche.

But I go into it's the weirdest thing.

It's happened with I've made three movies.

It happens with each one that I just I plunge into a very deep depression.

At the end of every film that I make there's something about all that pressure that you know.

There's deadline looming and then it's all over my creative endeavor is done and there's just something about it.

That it's just like I don't know what it is, but I don't know what to do now, I guess.

Yeah, there's a little bit of that.

I'm over.

I'm over that that time.

That was probably like two three weeks.

But we're past that now and now I.

You just need another project.

That's all now for folks to realize you you're the producer of the cessation of film.

You're one of the three guys that headed this up.

Yeah, I'm the director technically director.

Titles.

Yep.

Yeah, you're okay.

You're your director that David Lovey and Tim.

Cannon also worked with you on this.

Yeah, David Lobey wrote the movie and Tim Cannon was the producer.

Yeah, and they did their own film previously and I you know I've had had some of you guys on

before me when this was just a Kickstarter.

I Loved.

I remember that I remember a special night where the four of us Yes, we're late at night as we

watched it.

Finally go over the The the final step to get into the Kickstarter to

where it was official.

It was gonna be.

And you yep, you celebrated with us.

It was a beautiful thing.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I remember.

Here's one of the things I've noticed about your documentary movies is that each one is

Just better and better and they draw you in right?

So Calvinist was phenomenal and then true truth and

spirit spirit truth spirit and truth that's right was mind -blowing because of how

deep it went into the discussion of worship.

Wow, and then The cessationist movie is.

They all just keep getting better and better.

Well, thank you.

Yeah, I mean, I think Calvinist probably Represents my personality the most.

It was like very playful and there's a lot of like Nostalgia 80s sort of like references and

stuff throughout in the graphics and stuff like that.

But this one is we hired a videographer for this one.

I'm kind of a jack -of -all -trades Like I can do it anything if I need to but we hired a videographer

who is much more talented than I am for this film and I mean just that

one piece was huge and then we also had a Creative director

that was building sets for us and costumes and we did this whole thing where we we shot reenactments of

biblical miracles.

So, I mean the production value of this film is is Certainly better than anything I've ever done in the past.

Yeah, and you and there is a behind the scenes Portion to where people can see that.

Yeah, but you also do animation, right?

You do a lot of the animation work in your movies.

Yeah.

Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah all of it.

I said you I do the.

In this one.

I did the directing editing motion graphics, so.

You know the moving words on the screen and stuff like that.

Animations and then visual effects to.

So there's even some, you know, like fire elements and you know.

Yeah, all the stuff set extensions all that.

Yeah, it was it was neat and and I you know, the flow of the argument was was good.

You know, of course, yeah, you know, I Would I would have just the only critique I actually

had was I would have liked it at the end a little bit.

When you're Gonna know you're probably gonna expect me to say it but a little bit more time spent on the sufficiency of

scripture.

Sure.

Yeah, you you you know, that was my big thing that I wanted to like see emphasized.

But well Andrew you you do make a good point there about the flow, right?

Yeah.

Because as a preacher when we're drafting sermons, we're putting them together and we're ordering

it.

We want our our sermons.

To be linear.

We want the point to flow into point and that's what it does when you watch this movie.

Each point flows into the next point seamlessly.

Yeah, imagine just writing a sermon for like a year and a half.

Animating and all that for a year.

But but make no mistake I you know There's a lot of like Christian filmmakers like Christian artists that that want to call

themselves ministers.

And this is my ministry and right all these things.

I I there's.

I'm not confused.

Like I know that you know filmmaking is a it's a blessing to the church.

It's a blessing to me that I can do these things but this is no replacement for teach,

you know.

Teaching from your pastor and actually being in in a church and all those things.

So Yes, Christian filmmaking is a great thing.

But if God if God just pulled the plug on it tomorrow.

The church would not be any less off because God will do his work the actual preaching of

the word.

Well, and let me say this.

I mean.

You know, I think I said this to you privately less but.

There's typically what we've seen in the past when Christians do film.

They're horrible.

I mean like like we watch it because of the message and it's like oh, this is so corny.

Yeah, that's the one thing different that I'm starting to see now.

I know you're you're.

The stuff you've done has been that way.

It's a better quality and something where it's Not just educational

but entertaining.

Yeah, we want to raise the bar.

Yeah, we don't want it to be corny and it's it's granted.

It's a lot easier this day and age as long as you sort of know what you're doing.

The technology is available and the equipment is getting just cheaper and cheaper.

So it's not not to say that we're like better than the people that were doing it in the 80s and 90s or whatever.

It was just it was just a very expensive gig back then.

You know with with all the editing that had to take place I'm sure there was a lot

that just didn't make it into the video, right?

That's on the cutting room floor, especially with the interviews that were done up in Kootenai.

Because I know Jim likes to give a lot of information.

And I know Kevin.

Hey was that he only had I think one or two maybe spots in there.

So I know those guys have a lot more to say.

Oh, yeah.

Should we expect maybe almost an editor's cut that has.

Some more of those interviews in there.

I don't know if they'll be an editor's cut.

But they're I mean all that content is so, you know, I have For all the for all three

films I have just hard drives filled with with stuff.

And the one that I just always think about Is I have a two -hour interview with RC Sproul in the last year of

his life for Calvinist.

Nobody's ever seen it.

So I'm just sitting on this goldmine of all this.

It's it's Sproul talking about Calvinism and it's just it's just how long

two hours you could just Release that just by itself.

Yeah, so let me look at some of the comments we got coming in here.

So Okay.

Well first off we got welcome Willie.

She says I have watched this show for months and months and never knew there was a live chat till tonight.

Haha, too funny.

Yes, if you go to the YouTube you can watch it live.

And if you need to know how to get to YouTube and you're watching it on the page Well, there's a link right there on

apologetics live.

So Chris on hold says Okay, finally done.

Now what?

Well.

Well as far as I have some more there's there's some other stuff that needs to be done with.

With cessationist there's there's a sort of an extended project that's happening.

We've been we're just we're talking about stuff.

My dreams are I really want to make a movie about the sovereignty of God.

That's that's a big thing that I want to do.

The Trinity also is a subject.

With that I really want to tackle two great topics that are continually misrepresented just like the session

isn't it?

That's right.

Yeah.

When I'm ready to just completely cut my audience in half I'm gonna do a movie on pedo -baptism.

Like a good frisbee.

Yeah, we'll wait for that movie.

Fun ideas.

I'll support it.

Don't worry.

Thank you.

Yeah, I'll probably end up backing that to you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

So, let's see.

D is saying I'm seeing a lot of people say that Cessationists believe that

all of the spiritual gifts have ceased.

They love to misrepresent the position.

That's that's the thing is you see a lot of the peel.

Oh, well, you don't believe in the Holy Spirit.

We'll see this in this review of this video.

Like like we don't believe this Holy Spirit's working.

If you don't believe in one gift.

Now, here's the thing.

Let's if you have your Bibles open go back to Genesis Chapter

2.

I know we're going back to the beginning, right?

And if we look at what God says to Adam as He is sitting

there He says to the the man as he creates the garden.

Says not good for him to be alone creates a woman.

But before that he says to the man.

I'm just trying to find the exact verse so I could read it.

But he says to the man that he can eat of any tree of the garden, but one.

Here it is verse 9 out of the ground the Lord made cause.

To grow every tree that is pleasing in the sight that is good for food the tree of life.

Also in the midst of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Okay, so he creates that tree and he says to man.

This is verse 16 the Lord God commanded that man saying from every tree in

The garden you may freely eat but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

You shall not eat for the day you eat of it.

You will surely die now.

Emphasizing this for a reason as we go to chapter 3 with the fall

I'm gonna start with what Eve says.

When Eve is challenged she picks up on what Adam was told.

Okay for the most part but the Satan tries to deceive her and.

Well, let me start with what the Satan said.

So the serpent more crafty than any of the beasts of the field which the Lord God had made and he said to

the woman indeed has God said to you you shall not eat from any

tree of the garden and The woman said from the fruit of the trees we may eat but not

the fruit of the tree.

That's in the middle of the garden.

Okay, so She understands she can eat of every tree.

But one Adam understands that he was told he could eat of every tree but one.

But what is it Satan says if there's one thing you can't do then that's everything.

Right, so this is the deception of Satan.

So what do you have when you have people that say well, we believe certain gifts have stopped have ceased.

Then you don't believe any of the gifts.

Who does that sound like?

I'm just saying.

I'm just reading scripture.

I'm sorry.

But when they do I mean and there's a lot of different people you'll see do this like a.

You know women's role in the church off.

You don't let a woman be a pastor.

You don't let her do anything.

No, she could do everything but one.

You know, we could do all the gifts but these couple that you know, at least three that God said will cease.

Just saying I'm sure we'll get that.

You guys have anything you want to comment on that?

I Was thinking about something this morning.

You know, they talk about how God is the same yesterday today and forever and You know if

if Jesus gave these gifts to this first century church, then they must still be in existence today.

And I was thinking about commandments in Scripture that were never explicitly commanded

to come to an end but clearly have.

And I thought about the manna in the wilderness.

So God rains down this manna.

He gives them very specific instructions go out in the morning.

Gather the manna.

On Saturday you gather on Friday gather twice as much so you'll have enough for the Sabbath.

But so he tells them that this is what you're to do and this is how.

And then yes in Joshua.

They enter the land the eat of the the food of the land and then the manna does stop falling.

But got but the command is never taken away where God says to go out every morning and gather manna.

So to to.

The fact that the manna isn't there is is a clear indication that you can no longer

gather it.

Right, and so it would be like me saying well, the command is still in place.

God never took it away.

So I'm gonna go out in my backyard every morning and I'm gonna gather.

Whatever whatever is there and then I'll just call it manna and that's what it's essentially what

it's like to.

You know speak in gibberish and call it tongues because you think you have to speak in tongues.

So you're just you're grasping.

Yeah, you're grasping for anything that you can call tongues because you can't actually do the biblical

gift of tongues.

Better argument for that would be and I'm gonna say

better from your position as a Presbyterian because I'm gonna disagree with this is a good argument, but.

No, actually no way I think I'll be better for me.

No, so so but you you'll see and I can't remember where the Passover

was commanded for Israel to keep forever.

Yeah, right, but but.

We don't keep it forever.

Now right we're gonna have differences I'm gonna say it's because Israel should still be keeping it to get forever.

Which presents an interesting issue for me being Jewish.

Should I be keeping it forever?

Just saying but.

But you know, it's complicated.

Yeah I mean if if I mean from Presbyterian view, I would think that you should be keeping it if

you're still Israel.

Just saying no, but but well, we're in we are in a new covenant.

That is keeping forever, right?

Right, right, but but the Passover we would say the Passover was fulfilled in Christ so we're it's kept by

Christ being the blood that is on our the lentil of our hearts in the angel of death.

Yeah over us in that in that sense.

So Christ is right just like this.

We're getting way off subject, but.

Feel.

No, this is what it's like a lesson.

I get together these technical things between our beliefs that it gets fun.

Just just like the son of David sits on the throne forever Solomon certainly did not and the

lineage of David ceased as far as kingdom goes.

But the son of David does sit on the throne forever.

It's but it's Christ.

It's not his literal.

It's not his immediate son.

It's it's Christ fulfilling that promise.

Yeah, so let me bring in one of our other speakers.

It's striving for eternity.

Mr. Aaron Brewster.

How are you, sir?

I'm doing very well.

Thanks for having me.

There's a lot of me proud.

The screen and still one in the back.

Oh, this is this is the first time we have seen Aaron on apologetics live in the same location as

he's been before.

That's right.

This is the only duplicate.

So so less.

Every time Aaron has been on he's either been in a different.

He's always in a different location and often a different state.

Last time I was on I was I was driving in a vehicle.

I mean, I really mix it up then.

All right, so so someone had commented with what I was saying as far as D was saying

with Eve.

Do you think Eve exaggerated when she said to not even touch it?

A lot of people give Eve a hard time.

Just keep in mind.

We do not know where she got that information from.

Was it she who came up with that or Adam?

I?

Mean it is possible that God told Adam don't eat of it and he says don't even touch it.

I mean cuz you know, a lot of guys do that with their wives, you know, it's like Okay, if you shouldn't

eat something we got we got to extend a little bit further because you may not listen right now.

It's like don't go shopping.

But you know, it just gives me the card.

What is it is it.

The Tanakh in The fence around the law, what's that what's that called?

Well, the the note the Tanakh would be the what we'd call the Old Testament.

Okay, so would you know what I'm talking about.

It's like an extra biblical book that so.

So there's the Talmud.

Yeah, that's right.

That would be the the rabbi's writings that are so so, okay.

So it's you have the Tanakh is the is the written law.

Yeah, well we called Testament then the belief is that there was The oral

law given at Moses was was trans Transmitted orally put down three years and

eventually written down the Mishnah.

And then both of them have a commentary.

So that the Mishnah's commentary is the Midrash very Mystical

and then the the Sorry, that's that's commentary on the written law the oral law

that has the Commentary which is the Talmud.

The Talmud is what most?

Rabbinic Jew.

Jewish rabbis are looking at when they're saying what Judaism believes.

Only bring that up because I've heard it.

I've heard either one of those two books called referred to as a fence around the law.

It sounds like that's essentially what what you're saying.

At least Eve is doing.

She's at least giving a fence around the law and she it she probably heard that from Adam.

That makes a lot of sense.

Yeah.

We're doing as well.

They were saying hey God says don't do this.

So we're not gonna do any of these things here.

Yeah.

Yeah, like not boiling.

Lamb and its mother's milk.

And then you can't have dairy and meat in the same meal, right?

Yeah, and then they extend the they extend the Sabbath and things like that.

So So, let's see, so

Let's see John says to D.

I literally just watched the trailer.

I will rent it tomorrow.

Not to be outdone.

You rent it buy it.

Yeah, you could do that.

Jason cave one of our members on on YouTube says we are going to watch it tomorrow night as a

family.

Excellent.

That's a good family activity.

That's what I did with my bride.

Okay, so you start a couple others here that so I'm gonna just read these because I didn't see them.

Kenham quote.

All doctrine found in the Bible is found in the first 11 chapters of Genesis.

Well, that's true.

And he did.

He demonstrated it at g3 this year.

Did he?

Okay, I didn't I didn't know he was speaking there.

Okay, so I'm gonna you know what?

I'm gonna bring in mr. Huff backstage.

Here's a question for me that you you Selected and I'm gonna kick it to to you

guys because I'm gonna be play ignorant Question for Andrew which makes it hard because it's a question for me.

Are you aware the finasco fiasco of the NAR

Apostle Mike Bickle any thoughts?

No, I'm not aware.

I knew something was going on.

It's bad.

It's bad.

It's real bad yeah, and and I all I know is Michael Brown was there was video supposedly of

Michael Brown defending it and so I I Was Planning

to go and watch that to figure out what's happening and to see you actually what Michaels response is gonna

be and so now I'll just mention that part of the reason is

You know, I don't follow Michael Brown for the record.

But when cessationist film came out Michael wanted to debate anybody who had

anything to do with cessationist.

And so I was with the film.

He wanted a debate.

I said, I'll debate you.

So he called me up and he was like, you know, what what involvement did you have?

I and I said, well, I was a big promoter of it I was helping it get you know Kick started and

and get off the ground and I really wanted to see it get done.

I would you know kind of work behind the scenes with the guys and gave ideas and they you know

that and I you know, so I was not in it but Involved with it in a very

small way and so he so he's like great.

Let's debate.

Okay, so don't know why that would have to matter but that I have some

involvement in the film, but but yeah, it was something where We're gonna be doing that.

So now I'm having an interest in in his ministry.

He sent me his his very small books this is

Israel Israel's divine healer.

This is a Like four hundred and fifty pages almost and his other ones four hundred.

So yeah, I got I got my work to do You

know, so and then then I got this one that I added it's not his Speaking in tongues

a critical historical examination that's on the list as well.

Who is that by?

That is by let me check Philip Loster and Charles

Sullivan Sullivan, so I don't know who either of them are but someone I know well Read it and

said it was an excellent book.

And so I said, okay So you guys you want to the the Mike Bickle thing?

Yeah the Mike Bickle.

Debacle, so.

Before before I became reformed.

Right before I became biblical.

I was in the vineyard church.

Stops up.

If you're gonna claim to be biblical then at least be pre -mill.

Literally Andrew, I'm only just one step away from basically being Presbyterian.

Yeah.

Here's the thing I didn't tell you about this.

We did get an email I think was Not last week with me the week before that that someone

had emailed saying they love the show and.

They love that.

I keep giving you a hard time about being post mill.

So the audience likes it.

I gotta keep giving you a hard time.

I'm sorry I mean, I think everybody here agrees that you're wrong about being post mill.

I.

Think less literally.

I'm I'm I'm a millennial.

That's yeah, that's what I mean, I guess.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean which is basically post mill because very very.

Let me defend my boy for a second, let me defend my boy for a second.

So first of all, first of all.

Less, let me just say publicly and and to you the film was phenomenal.

It is a must see for every believer a must see.

Brother I just I'm so glad we backed it drew and I did as matter of theology and.

Yeah, man, it's it's it's incredible.

I've tried to share it as much as I could much as I can and and and it's it's so important.

So, but let me let me let me back up drew here.

Let me say this.

Here's what I appreciate about my boy.

I would put drew.

Even though I am historic pre mill drew is post mill.

Let me say this I would put drew when everyone talks about a Puritan, you know an eschatology of hope the

Puritan eschatology of being post mill.

What we see circulating on social media today.

Through the hot take folks who just like to throw things out there and take things to the extreme.

That is not an example of Having an eschatology of hope that's an example of being an immature

knucklehead.

Okay.

So what what my boy drew here does is he gathers his framework albeit?

I may disagree with it in this in this moment.

From the the Exegetical work that he has done through the scriptures and he

approaches it in a way where he echoes the maturity.

That we find from the Puritans and guys like RC Sproul so let me even even though we

disagree he does it right because there's he he.

He wants to be biblically mature.

He wants to be emotionally mature.

He wants to be a man after God's own heart and live according to live a life according to holiness and

godliness.

Yeah, and not just saying look at me.

I can post this next hot take and Completely bash my brothers.

Yeah, that's you know.

Look, the reality is this is why and and less knows this as well.

He he and I disagree on Theologically and have talked about for hours late late late

nights and you know.

But I I appreciate anyone who can be consistent with their

Interpretation.

Yeah, even if I don't agree with it.

Yep, right if there's if there's an inconsistency then I want to like hey, let's point that out, but You know,

I want to see the consistency of it.

You know that we could disagree.

We're all gonna be wrong.

But Facebook user here is is showing some support Facebook.

I Support our post mill brother.

So, you know, it's actually every Facebook user out there supports you.

That's that's what I think that is.

Someone else backstage.

I know supports me too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know I was just gonna say what did you like call in help here?

Mr.

No, it's because I'm wearing the cruciform shirt and it's like a signal that goes out.

Yeah.

Speaking of cruciform with pastor Brannon.

Welcome.

Hey, you got it.

You got a Conference is coming up.

Maybe is there rumor?

Maybe it's not coming next year.

Yeah.

Next year as a matter of fact, so it couldn't be further away.

Honestly.

August is so we're looking at August first weekend in August.

Yeah first weekend in August.

All right, so we're gonna do.

You know that just in time for less to have a new film out.

I Mean if the world doesn't end by then or if the rapture doesn't happen, right?

Well, it's obviously all because of Israel like I mean I was just on iron sharpens iron radio today and it's like feel

like okay.

So you think that that you know because we were talking about the situation in Israel.

So you think that's prophecy.

I don't know.

After after everything's done I'll let you know if what's going on in Israel.

I mean, you know is I someone would challenge me and was like is do you think that it's God's will for Israel to

be?

A state I said, of course I do.

Like oh, so you think it's prophecy said I never said that then.

How do you think it's God's will?

Because Israel's a state.

The fact that Israel's a state tells me it's God's will because if it wasn't God's will guess what Israel wouldn't be a state.

I'm saying this to a guy who's very reformed.

Let's bring it back to Mike Bickle.

Yeah, so so I was in the vineyard movement for about eight years and we followed

Bethel we followed IHOP Kansas City we would go to The one thing conferences which are put on

by IHOP Kansas City and Mike Bickle and so I Would

follow a lot of the things that they did right the 24 -hour prayer room was on my computer.

And things like that.

And I had friends that went to their school and so when I

when I started actually researching them in the charismania and the things that went on and started discovering how unbiblical

they were and really how kind of creepy Mike Bickle was.

I Started, you know kind of making my way to the door.

And but you know all centered around what Scripture said.

What I would discover in Scripture mainly centered around Charismania and then

cessationism.

That's when I actually moved towards cessationism but In the more research

that I did I discovered, you know Mike Bickle has a history going back with the Kent he was part of the Kansas City

prophets and Part of the Kansas City prophets was a man named Bob Jones and

Bob Jones was actually found out to be using his

gift of Prophecy and words of knowledge and hearing from the Lord to manipulate

and To manipulate women to get them to do sexual favors for him.

Let me just stop one second and say there's there's new Bob Jones's.

Yeah, thank you.

It's not Bob Jones University.

Yeah, this is right.

This is Bob Jones from the Kansas City prophets who was really just a.

Despicable.

Perverted man, what's what has happened recently with so with Mike Bickle.

It's a lot of the same things that you saw with Bob Jones.

Women have come forward and accused him of sexual abuse and but the thing

about it is it wasn't just These these statements that were brought out and it was a lot of

people.

That came a lot of women that came forward and they said it expanded decades.

So that that leads me in to believe he knew about Bob Bickler.

About Bob Jones may have had a hand in it I don't know.

But there's similarities there right and especially being a part of the same ministry.

But the interesting thing is is The initial statement that was put out was

put out by the board members of IHOP.

Kansas City who viewed the women.

And it says in here.

These are women who have been viewed as credible trustworthy and courageous.

Yes.

So now what we view about IHOP.

Right we would say they Probably heretical on a lot of their teachings

but kudos to them for actually doing what they did.

Well, yeah, that's that's a good thing because a lot of times when you see is that they just you know.

Circle the wagons, you know, they just it's like oh we can't let our own guy.

You know fall so right, you know.

Take it back to Todd Bentley right when it came out that Todd Bentley was cheating on his wife and Bill

Johnson was one that came out and said we support him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

You said that I Know.

Michael Brown came out with a video and he was talking about this.

I don't think he was defending Mike Bickle.

Okay, he was.

He was responding to the allegations.

Okay.

Yeah, I have to watch it.

I want to watch it.

But yeah the.

So I saw someone shared online and say that he you know.

But I think it was before it was live if I'm very correctly because they're saying watch tonight.

He's and because he's gonna be defending it and I was like defending what I didn't know.

So, okay.

So yeah, it's it's on my long list of things to watch.

And Michael says.

You know, Michael Brown just did a review a review of Durbin's video on Israel.

Percent agree.

I.

I think I think I saw that and I think Durbin was.

You know, it was Michael Brown was invited on to Durbin's program.

I thought with that.

And I will I will be.

For the rap report which was starting up again In in about

a week or so.

We're but I'm recording next week with Michael Brown and we're gonna talk about the situation in Israel.

So we're not going to talk about our Theology where we differ we are going to talk about something we have in

common, which is the love for the land of Israel, but.

All right.

So let's let me get to sharing this this video.

That we're gonna.

Huh?

Chris I just I enjoy giving you a headache you and Drew.

It's you know, this is when you send it to me when you said you were gonna send it to me last week I immediately Chris text me

and said hey send it to me Chris on holds.

No me.

No Chris.

Oh.

Huff you you wanted the unique you deserve it then.

I saw parts of it and then I watched the whole thing and I was just like wow, yeah.

Okay now for for the record we we sent this and decided to do this

Less you informed us that there is a response to so so this is a gentleman Ruslan.

His channel his his channel is called bless God studies.

Which isn't even proper English?

And I thought I like when I'm calling out your English, you know, your English is bad.

I'm just saying Okay From New Jersey, so

Yeah, I speak computer programming languages, all right, so so he had this this video

cessation of war.

With deliverance ministries and here's why that's his video.

I Found out about that because somebody had shared with me the messed up church, which is a really good channel to

to be checking out.

But David Was on there from Dave from cessationist film that we're earlier.

He's the writer.

He was on there responding to this.

I guess I found out about because you know my name got Brought up when in part of it when it came to

Discussing That you know the claim was made.

No one's willing to debate Michael Brown.

And so they were said well, yes someone is and so So that's how it

came up so I watched I went back after watching the messed up church went back to watch the other one and was like Hey Drew,

we got it.

Like we got it.

Like let's let's respond to this so since the messed up church lest said that there is

a.

Follow -up video.

Let me try.

Let me try to give you just a really really quick history.

So I Didn't even know that there was this entire YouTube ecosystem of

New Charismatic Pentecostal.

These huge channels.

And we but when we were doing the research for the movie and using clips.

We used a bunch of of these people because they were just popping up when you search for you know Speaking in tongues or

prophecies or whatever.

So we ended up using a lot of these guys in the movie just to to Show examples of the

arguments we were making.

And then these are the people that are talking about the movie is the there's this whole group

called the demon hunters Isaiah Saldazar and Alexander Pagani

and What's that one guy.

Yeah, so anyway, this is this all these big YouTube channels and so

they talked about at the most.

Ruslan sort of picked up on it because.

It was this huge debacle that was happening in the YouTube Charismatic

world and Ruslan is sort of in that world.

So he made this whole video, but he hadn't watched the movie.

So he makes this whole video he in.

Somebody brought up the there was a conference that g3 is putting on with the same name.

They charged $300 for us that became a huge talking point.

How dare they charge $300 for this conference, which has nothing to do with the movie.

This yeah.

So so that became a big talking point which Ruslan dug into and so really the video was more about the conference in the

movie.

But he was sort of tying it all together.

So that was a lot of the confusion.

David goes on Stephen Kosar show.

David is the writer of cessationist.

So he goes on Stephen Kosar show to call out Ruslan.

They review the whole thing.

David insists over and over and over again that you're criticizing something.

You haven't seen.

Yeah, and then after that Ruslan gets in a Twitter fight with me and David

and then and then Ruslan finally makes then he makes a Reply video

to Stephen Kosar's messed -up church video that David was on and he he relentless.

He relents on a few of the things he admits that the house that he shows was not in fact on MacArthur's house.

There's there's a few other things that he sort of he says technically I was wrong on these things.

So it's just a huge back -and -forth, but this is an entire world that I didn't even know existed.

I I thought it was like Benny Hinn and stuff, right?

Like I thought these were the charismatics but in reality, it's this entire new thing and I have a lot of theories about

the whole new YouTube Charismatic world which we can talk about later, but that's my setup for

the clip.

Okay, and and so what I'll do is I'm gonna grab I just found it I will grab the response video

put that into the show notes of the podcast.

So that we have that so you guys can watch that.

So I'm saying up front anything that I say he may have already corrected

and So that would be good but I'm stating that up front that I didn't see the response video because I didn't know about it

till two minutes before we went live so Yes.

Just have that for the record.

So so here it is.

Let's let's Hit play and by the way, I am speeding this up a little bit just at 1

.25 speed.

It is about 25 minutes.

Drew was like you really think we're gonna get through that.

No, we won't get through all of it.

I'm sure.

But I'm gonna jump around a bit.

There is a battle of theology happening in real time.

A recent documentary came out called cessationist.

And it's about the position that the gifts of the spirit in terms of miracles and signs and wonders have ceased After

the Apostles went to go be with the Lord Jesus, but in this documentary, there's some shots fired Just wish everybody can get

along but they can't and in those shots being fired There were additional shots being fired and something a bit ironic with regards to this

entire Conversation now when I say can't we all just get along?

This is what I mean cessationist there's a wide spectrum of Cessationist there's some station.

Is that legitimately don't believe God moves today and that would be the French and Those people would believe that in first

Corinthians chapter 13 when it talks about that which is complete is coming Those people believe that the complete is actually

talking about the scripture being canonized.

Okay, that's a pretty fringe view.

So there is.

There is a fringe view that says God does not work.

Move at all the Holy Spirit.

Anybody who says that.

I don't know anyone but I know that they're out there.

I keep hearing.

But how can I can't even accept that premise?

There's nobody who says God doesn't move.

If we mean that God doesn't perform any kind of miracles then okay none.

But even that people don't even even salvation in itself, right?

Any kind of physical miracle like like, you know, God doesn't override The natural order ever.

There are some people that would say that but that's that's the most you could possibly say.

Nobody would say God no longer move.

Is that's right.

Yes.

It's like everybody on the internet talking about.

Hypersensation, right?

And it's like who is that?

Press them on it and then like John MacArthur is like the best you can get.

And it's I mean, I'm just trying to be charitable because I don't want that brain movement to be left out, you know.

Yeah.

But but when we talk about it, I mean this cessationism is not a

wide great cessationism and very simply defined as people who believe that the

miraculous gifts Have not continued on past the first century.

The why.

Well, he just gave it he may say.

Oh, it's a fringe group that believes it's the canon of Scripture but I Would argue that's what the

scripture says.

It's the only thing that makes I in my mind the most sense in the context in a natural

reading of 1st Corinthians 13.

Okay.

Well, I will say that and I know I know your interpretation.

Well, and I love it I I think it is maybe a minority interpretation.

Oh, I agree among sensations, but but cessationism.

However, you want to dice the the exact reason and the exact timing it is.

Around the events of the death of the final Apostle and the closing of the canon.

That's there's no way there's no way around that.

Those are the events that are that we're saying are bringing about the ceasing of these gifts.

Yeah.

Because the argument that I make is the purpose of the gifts.

Yep.

Because you're talking about this in Hebrews chapter 2 right.

The purpose is to vindicate the writing of Scripture that you know.

Message that was given and so whether it's the message from the Apostles or from that was written.

Once there were don't you once you no longer need the vindication?

You don't need the gifts that are used to do the vindication.

Well, and this is why this is why.

Right John John John MacArthur said to Justin Peters in 2022 Justin asked him what's the biggest

the greatest threat to the Christian Church today and John's quote.

I've had it written down.

I haven't memorized is quote an abysmal lack of biblical discernment is.

Is he gave the reason he gave the proper definition for cessationism and what true biblical

cessationists believe?

Drives me that's the way he says it but.

But but he gives that definition like it's not enough like are they believable with the canon of Scripture is closed.

What's like what more do you need.

And yet and the inability of people?

Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ who would hold to continuationism or the fringe of

charismatics the charismania is.

Why can't people take a step back what chapter and verse chapter and verse well, hang on there's a lot of them.

It's it's it's what the whole Brand laugh because he does.

All right, like Theology right exactly.

It's like you just read it's it's the scripture as a whole.

It's the story that it tells it's the example that it gives it's the Prescriptive commands that are there

combined with the narratives that are there.

It's all of it.

It's not just okay.

Well first Corinthians 13 what you know, well, that's your interval.

Well, hang on.

Let's look at these and less again.

I love the way you guys broke it down in the film these three different three different sections these epics in Scripture.

Like why were these gifts given and it's sorry.

It's just not enough for something.

Those epochs too.

Yeah.

Scriptures being written and one more thing Andrew more thing and let me just say for everybody that's that's watching now as we're

starting this.

If memory serves correct this is the only time in the 26 27 minutes that he actually even remotely

begins to touch the content of The argument

and everything else is.

So I Know you said he gives a good definition, but but the problem with his definition is that he's he's

combining two radically incompatible things he's saying God doesn't

move and then he attaches that to this.

The Closing of the canon which is the closing of the canon part is okay.

Yes cessation is believe that but then you're attaching that with that God doesn't move because We're saying that the gifts that you

really like and that you think that you're participating in.

Have seats.

So so let me give a couple resources.

Real quick drew to your point.

The I would encourage everyone to do go go you go.

On YouTube search cessationist conference.

Andrew Rappaport.

Watch the what the talk that I had done at the Kootenai Idaho

conference on cessation ism dealing with the miracles laying out and showing.

Definitively that there's only three time periods in history that humans do any miracles.

Outside of that you're only you only have outside of that.

You only have like seven miracles.

That's it in 4 ,000 years period, you know, there's also so talking about the the

definition of cessation ism I think Kevin Hay opened up that conference Definition

of.

So go go search.

Watch the whole cessation is conference.

That'd be.

You can go to striving for turning org slash miracles.

I put all of my sermon notes there with the charts that I did.

Yeah, they are thank you.

It took a lot of time and we have talked about this this topic several times on

This show and what I did in preparation for the debate with Michael Brown.

Michael wanted to see what my position was.

So I I want a re.

I got a resource for you guys that we haven't shown here before.

But if you go and we're gonna have this on we're gonna link this into our

website.

But for right now if you go to let's dot church Lets dot church

there is a channel under the channels for apologetics live and there is a search button up here and

You could just type something like gifts and boom.

Well that gave you everyone.

So if you're if you just type in gifts, it limits the search to everywhere where I have talked about

gifts.

Have some gifts cease can charismatic gifts and Benny him be defended, right?

Andrew Rapport disagrees with Charismatic gifts with it, you know.

So each of the every time and the neat thing is if you go and you look at this.

You're gonna you're gonna get a transcription if you want a transcription you got the video.

It's it's all right there.

That's that's a resource.

That is Something we're gonna be incorporating into websites.

So you guys will be able to start to search.

Anything that that we've talked about on rap report politics

live.

Okay, so those are some things just go do some more so you could do more research man.

I'm looking at these charts right now.

These are great.

Really great.

Wow.

Yeah, it was it was a lot of work by agent.

Mm -hmm.

Shows how many miracles are done in the Bible in general.

That's crazy.

Yeah, and what I would it really did.

What I did in that Brandon was to walk through and show How you know through each Bible the book of the

Bible is mirror.

People have this idea like miracles are just all over the place.

Because that's the way people talk today and It's really a miracle by definition

should not be normative.

Right, everyone treats it as if it should be.

Well, that's right.

That's the misconception about cessationism.

Anyway, is that somehow we don't believe in miracles, right, but that's not true.

Yeah.

We just don't believe in the sign gifts or the miracles that were used in the time of the

Apostles for the Authentication of the message and so that's right.

Yeah.

Yeah, so so, you know when we we look at it, you know, I Don't care if it's a

fringe view if it's biblical, right?

I mean, what is it?

What is most commonly you guys?

Give me the answer.

What's the most common view of the verse where two or three are gathered in my name there?

I am in the midst of them.

What is that referring to?

We can have church that way wherever we are.

We can have church as long as there's two or three people.

And when it's a Study at prayer meeting and no one's there that's God's there.

That's not what it's saying.

Right.

It doesn't matter if that's the most common.

That text is dealing with church discipline.

Right, so you know, it doesn't matter if it's if it's a Uncommon view or

a fringe view if it's a biblical view, that's the question.

So, so let's let's try to.

I know we're not gonna get through this whole thing and I'm gonna jump through it a bit.

To get through some of the things he says at the end.

That which is perfect that which is complete is coming.

There's some someone Jesus to coming to Jesus.

So there are folks all the way on the other on that extreme there are some folks that even go to the extreme of believing that

Jesus because Jesus is the word and the Bible is the word and Therefore Jesus is the

Bible.

Yes I know it's a minority but those folks do exist and there are folks who are open to God healing are

open to God moving but everything is no prayer is really about praying for the will of God exclusively

and.

Every spiritual gift or seeming spiritual gift kind of gets categorized as the gift of discernment.

All right.

Yeah.

He's exposing his bad theology.

Yeah, because.

What's the thing the gift you never hear about in the charismatic movement the gift of discernment?

Yeah, you never hear that.

Exactly.

Yeah, well, well actually, you know, you know that that crazy clip where Mark

Driscoll talks about visions that he sees and he saw a woman having sex

with a Tall blonde man who had the perfect body type like all this disgusting detail.

He says that you laid on your back.

You took your clothes off like he he's telling her this vision.

If you remember Mark, Driscoll said that was the gift of discernment.

So he says some of you have the gift of discernment and you just see things and it's like taking the red pill and

In the matrix and now you can just see everything.

So According to some of these guys the gift of discernment is actually being able to see pornographic

visions.

That's right.

Wow and and I should I should have said this from the beginning for the record I I didn't think about it till just

before we went live, but I did I did email Ruslan.

I think that's how it has names pronounced.

I'm not Bruce Ruslan Ruslan.

Okay.

I emailed him just before I realized It was last minute.

I doubt he'll come in.

He probably won't even get it.

But if he does watch this and wants to come on we'll you know be happy to have a discussion on this

whether it be a discussion on what we're saying about his review or you know just the topic of

You know cessationism, but yeah, I mean I I do want to just point out a tactic

that you sometimes see people do.

Where they mention all of these?

Extreme views.

And.

By doing that one of the things that does and I'm not saying he is doing this.

When people often do this they mention all the extreme views so that their view seems normal, yeah.

So it's like look crazy crazy crazy crazy now doesn't what I'm saying seem normal the

and and he's he is seemingly putting it out there as if these are extreme views like

believing that that the Prophecy and the wisdom are

partial but when they're completed.

That that might refer to the Bible.

I Mean, it's a crazy idea when revelatory gifts are completed.

When would that be?

Oh when the revelations completed?

He also says that when that he says some instead of praying or instead

of praying for healing the praying is just Praying that God's will would be done as if as

if that's a wrong thing to do.

Right, yeah, yeah that was later and and and you know, I was glad in

Less you know, I know when when you were first getting involved in the project I I used a phrase that you were like

wait.

What was that and you want to hear it again, but it was in.

There is revelatory gifts.

Oh, yeah.

Because I don't know anyone that uses that phrase other than me, but that's what how I view those they're revelatory gifts, right?

Prophecy and tongues.

Revelatory and attesting.

Yes tongues is actually both.

It's a miraculous gift attesting to the fact that this person is sent from God, but it's also revelation,

right?

Yeah, but with the wisdom in the prophecy.

Those are those are revelatory gifts.

Right and where the healing and the tongues were attesting to the revelation.

Yeah.

Yeah, so.

Yeah, I Laughed right when I saw that in there was like hey.

You know, they don't believe in words of knowledge.

They don't believe anything prophetic.

They don't believe that God can speak in supernatural ways.

They don't believe in dreams and visions.

They don't believe in any of that stuff.

Hold on.

We believe God speaks.

Yeah.

That's that's the thing.

When you paint someone to the extreme Right there you end

up being and you end up knowingly or unknowingly being dishonest.

Right.

And my question to him is What more does God have to say that he hasn't already said

in his word?

Like what what is it that I need to be seeking outside of Scripture?

Yeah.

Whole reason why you know less than I had talked about the fact of and I made this point at the cessationist conference

is The big really like why is this a big deal?

All right.

This is a thing that I think I Believe many Continuationists.

And what are asking of the of cessationist?

Why is this a big deal?

Why do you make an issue of this.

And The reason I make an issue of this it comes down to the sufficiency of Scripture.

That's right.

If if Scripture is not enough if you need Listen carefully to the word.

I just said need if you need something more than Scripture.

To validate your faith.

To make you feel spiritual.

Then you don't believe in the sufficiency of Scripture.

Yeah.

I would add authority in there too.

I would say I would say the sufficiency and the authority of Scripture and for me the reason the reason I bring this up the reason I

say this is a primary and not a Secondary issue is because if the Scripture is truly they honest us breathed out by God.

God is breathing this out.

It's the spoken word then then to to.

Not for Scripture not to be sufficient and authoritative for you.

What that means is that God himself is not enough for you.

God is not sufficient.

God is not authoritative in your life because you're searching for something more than what he gave us to rely on.

This is a right.

This is this is a commandment violation.

You're taking his name in vain.

You're attributing works to the Spirit of God that he wants nothing to do with.

It's a me if I can jump in here.

Yeah, hold on I just want I want to emphasize on Chris said before people who disagree with us jump on him, okay.

Just because we'll know notice ways what we're saying.

We're saying I'm saying when you say there's a need.

He's saying when you're you're looking for something more, you know.

You're not looking to the Scriptures.

The Scriptures are and that's what we're saying.

The Scriptures are all that we need for faith and practice.

Okay, Aaron go.

Two things first of all, I was gonna say he it's interestingly he says that these people he's talking about believe that God

can't and That's really important too because no we believe he

and but that he doesn't but then again We also believe that he will.

So the just kind of casually tossing it out there and saying, you know God can't

do this is really completely inappropriate and very misleading.

But the other thing I was gonna say I was gonna piggyback off of what Chris said about the authority thing.

Yes.

What he says 100 % right about them not recognizing the authority of God.

The flip side of that coin though is what I see all the time as a biblical counselor.

If God's not the authority well, who is.

Well, it's it's it's nobody other than me.

I am the authority because I get to decide that God's not the authority and I get to decide these things.

Yep, the the the continuous position now I'm not saying that

everyone who believes that God's still doing miraculous things in this world as defined by

the revelatory gifts and the attesting gifts and whatnot.

I'm not saying that everyone who believes those gifts are continuing are just looking for an excuse to baptize their own

will and just do whatever they want, but So many people are so many people are

casual.

They've been lied to about how God communicates to us.

Alright, they've been they've been told that it's a feeling or that you'll hear still small voice or which

is schizophrenia.

You know, they're they're told this and so then when that feeling comes I have counselees saying to me

I believe God wants me to divorce my husband.

Hmm, and and and based off of what based off of scripture or

Just based off of how they feel, you know, because well, you know, cuz I had this piece or whatever else.

So it is the authority thing.

But the moment that the authority is not God's.

The authority is our own.

And the real deceptive the real dangerous part of this is the fact that These people are pursuing their own

will but saying that it came from God because they've been taught that it comes from God.

They believe it comes from God.

But it's not and the real danger in that Aaron is the fact that you you can't reason with them because they got it

from God.

They they use the God card a trumpet and so let me give a resource with this.

Go to striving for training org go to the store get a book God doesn't whisper

by pastor Jim Osmond.

Absolutely a fantastic resource you with This idea that God speaks to you, but feelings or

voices or dreams.

It is the definitive book on.

Hearing the voice to God.

Yeah. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, Aaron.

Fantastic point brother.

So, so I jumped ahead in in this a bit because I know he's he's gonna end up playing the

The trailer to the cessationist film.

This is where he's now speaking about the g3 conference that is going to be held at

Grace Community Church.

Now just for the record for those who didn't see the cessationist film John MacArthur

Was not in the film itself.

It was even interviewed for it.

Nope.

Okay, so he wasn't even interviewed for the film.

Okay, the conference that's being discussed is a g3 conference.

Right.

Keep that in mind.

Okay, this is not something that MacArthur is doing.

MacArthur's church has opened up to lots of different people to do conferences.

Joe Beeky does Puritan conferences there, but it's Joe Beeky's conference and.

Fairness though.

When I saw the g3 conference, I actually thought it had something to do with the film.

You got to do your homework and he obviously didn't do his homework.

It's not that it has nothing to do with the film.

It's that it's a g3 conference that's using the title of the film and we are we're gonna be there and it's like

the film Is is the subject matter?

So it's not that it's completely disconnected.

It's just that.

The a lot of these guys are so are talking about the conference as if it is the film which is just

very.

Unhelpful.

Yeah, and that's the confusion.

So and that's why I went when we have these things.

He's gonna talk about just understand is a g3 conference on the same topic of the film at

MacArthur's Church.

MacArthur's Church is not doing it.

Okay, it's not the film the that's not in the film.

Obviously because the films out and the conference hasn't happened.

So just just so we have that.

So it's which means which means.

Andrew.

It means it's it's not John MacArthur.

Charging the money.

Yeah, which which becomes a major issue right there because yeah, we'll let him play it.

But keep that what drew just set of mind.

It's it's not MacArthur because that's their whole thing.

Look MacArthur is always the big name that everyone when Julie Roy's goes after MacArthur for things

that MacArthur didn't actually do for counseling that other elders did.

But if she mentions those elders, no one's gonna click on her articles where she's gonna make her money from the ads.

So you got to make it look like MacArthur's behind it.

All right, that's what ends up happening.

Okay, so yeah.

They're doing a conference around this right?

I mean, they're really waving this flag high.

You know, it's I always just find it telling when the entire movement of something is more or less

anchored as being against something.

Right, you're basically even the marketing of this.

Is you got the what is it the Todd White?

It's a video playing in the background like all the bad things.

It's not a bad thing, right?

So we're not like we're not like going towards anything.

We're just pointing out all the bad stuff.

Okay, and I think in that the the critique is again John MacArthur is a part of this.

Hey, I'm pause for a second.

Pause for a second.

Yeah I'm trying not to pour.

Didn't watch this.

Yeah.

He did so he admits he doesn't watch the movie and and I mean one of the things that you end up seeing

with it is.

He's criticizing.

Right, he he doesn't and and look everyone all of us do this.

So let's not be too hard on.

We all do this where we don't we could see what others are doing.

We don't see it in ourselves.

That's what he's doing.

He's critiquing and being on the negative.

And criticizing us for doing that, but he's doing the same thing.

That's why I wouldn't make that argument.

Well, the reason the reason I said stop was not not because of that.

The reason I said stop is because of that that that argument that you find all the time that it is.

You know, oh, can't we just be known by what would I look for instead of what we're against, you know?

Doctrine divides and it does absolutely does, you know.

I think of Spurgeon's words, right discernment isn't knowing the difference between right and wrong, but right and almost right.

I think of JC Ryle in Pharisees and Sadducees saying that unity

Unity at the expense of truth is unity that is set on fire by the flames of hell, you know.

And we have to we have to draw those lines, but but this is also another

dishonest take.

Because anyone who if you've read strange fire or Watch the cessationist film or read the book a

biblical case for cessationism that Tom Pennington did in conjunction with the film You will very clearly see and hear

that Yes, we're pointing out the things that that we are against because they go against the Word of God.

But then we're pointing people to what the scriptures we're pointing people to what what does the Bible say

on these topics and so much?

More.

That argument it just drives me nuts because.

Good if Chris if if I'm telling you what I'm against right in terms of in terms of these

false Movements and false claims if I'm telling you what I'm against I'm also telling you what I'm for and if I'm

telling you what I'm for then you also know what I am against.

You know you and you guys know if you go back listen to Andrew Rappert's rap report.

I've been doing a series going through our doctrinal statement and so much of the doctrinal statement is saying what we're against and I'm

showing How that shows what I'm for.

Like that's the whole purpose of a doctrinal statement.

Less you were gonna say something.

Well, I just think that it's very clear that the beauty of

Especially in the New Testament, you know, Paul is putting forward the beauty of the simplicity of the gospel.

There's something about a simple message that's just begging People to

come and pervert it and so that's why shepherds actually have to be on the

offense.

They have to be fighting off error, and so Christianity is always going to be a

Defense and offense.

It's going to be a fighting religion in ideas not physically fighting.

Because we are fighting for the sake the the sacred holy pure simple

gospel.

So yeah, I Don't know what religion you think you belong to if you are really fed

up with all the the fighting.

I'm sorry, but error is always trying to creep into the church and all if you look at church history.

It is always a fight.

In fact one of the things that that I Point that has been made by one of my seminary

professors was all of our theology comes out of heresy.

In other words it is because there's heresy that creeps in that we form our.

Theological positions in response to heresy.

Every creed every confession every counsel that's called.

It is all in response to error, correct?

Yeah, well, I was actually I was actually just gonna say that exact same thing.

I mean first Corinthians 11 tells us that Divisions exist among

you know the monk the Corinthians and that there had to be these factions so that

I'm sorry.

I've got sidetracked by something that just popped on my screen.

He says in verse 19.

For there must also be factions among you so that those who are approved may become evident among you and.

Part of the point being made there is that the factions and the divisions were not created by the

believers Just pursuing division.

They were created in in part by the disingenuous Unbelievers or by the people who were led astray or the

people who belong believe the wrong thing.

So once that faction once that division was created by these people in this particular situation those who

believe that these specific gifts Continued they're the ones stepping away from what the scriptures

are communicating.

Well, then yes at that point a faction has been created in theory.

It was created by you by stepping away from that and so therefore it must be answered.

Well, I got something that goes along with with less his point about Christianity being a

fighting religion.

There's someone that I know locally that I'm very close with a

Minister so just so to speak.

And he's very much against calling out heresy.

Against saying well such -and -such, you know, he would be against saying Andy Stanley is a heretic and things like

that.

And so I've asked him I said, okay, you're you you claim to be a minister of the gospel, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I do.

Okay.

So then if you don't do that, how do you fulfill Titus 1 9?

Mmm, it's a clear command and if you don't do it, then you're not qualified to be to be a minister.

Yeah, so let me just address some comments that we got a Facebook user.

Clicked on the wrong one.

Facebook user says why are we not able to share this?

Well, first off Facebook user what I suggest you do is go to apologetics live comm and Follow the

instructions so we can know who you are.

So your name shows up, but you're probably on a Facebook page That or group

that's private and therefore you can't share from there.

So you'd either have to go to my wall or just share apologetics live.

Comm and that's that would be a good thing to share or they got it.

They said they figured it out.

Okay.

And I'm gonna cover this one before it gets too late because We may not get to this part, but Wayne is saying

you guys have an open invitation to come on remnant radio.

I have been hearing this For weeks now actually longer than that.

Since since we started talking about this film I have said that I'm open to

it.

People have told me that they will have me on.

They've tagged me on there, you know, and I said I'm willing.

I'm waiting.

If anyone has their contact information Just send it to me.

Info at striving for eternity comm.

Info at striving for eternity comm.

I'll be happy to get the info because everyone keeps telling me that there's an open invitation.

Everyone keeps telling them that hey, I'll do I'll come on I'll discuss it.

So They're not contacting me.

So if you have their contact information contact me at info at striving for eternity comm.

They might be referring they might be referring specifically to me.

I've been invited by remnant radio.

The the makers of the film are invited.

So they've done five weeks.

No, I've been.

I was told that they're doing there.

They've opened up to anybody.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I'm just I'm just saying you have an open invitation might be referring to to the

filmmakers, but So to respond to that We are considering

Going on remnant radio at the beginning they they reached out to me.

They reached out to Tim the producer.

I just said the movie stands on its own.

You can you know do whatever you want to do you can respond to it.

You play clips from the movie really does and and that's that's what they've been doing.

They've done five weeks of responding.

It's very interesting hearing the things they They say week by week, which

is which is good you know, I want to hear what they what they have to say, so it might make more sense towards the end of

Their 10 week review or whatever.

They're gonna be doing To set something up and go on their show just just to respond to that

if they're referring specifically.

Yeah, you know, they supposedly did a video where they were challenged anybody and Sure, I had

several people that contacted me and saying, you know, why why won't I go on what am I afraid?

What am I running from them?

No, I mean and I told him I said if you have contact with him this show right here apologetics live .com.

Anyone can come in if you disagree with my views.

Come on in if you if you really and folks anyone that watches this on a regular basis.

You guys know we get people who come in they disagree.

We realize they have a lot more Disagreement and need more than a few minutes and we will give them an hour

or two hours to flesh out their points.

Okay.

So, you know if they want to come in fine if they want me to come on there fine.

I'll I don't have no problem right, so Let's take a look.

Let's continue playing this let me go back to this screen.

There we go.

Cessation is sometimes not all the time.

But the critique is that folks who flow in these situations I would say friends of mine that I publicly disagree with that I've had on my channel.

I've disagreed.

I've been on their channels.

I disagree with the streams have overlap between the prosperity and and and all that.

I gotta pause this because I gotta did.

He drop he dropped.

I gotta read the private chat here.

His so am Brewster puts in the back in the private chat.

Hey, my dudes, thanks for a great show.

I have to duck out and assist my daughter.

I think she's trying to speak.

Totally distracted from guy cracks me up.

Okay.

Let's go back to this.

Charismatics and in Pentecostals, which I'm not a Pentecostal, but we're just using that word interchangeably.

So play this jump across the clip.

Okay, so I'm gonna stop this here because it truthfully John MacArthur wasn't in the film that the clip

has nothing to do with the film or the conference.

What he's gonna do is spend a big amount of time here.

Focused on John MacArthur.

Well, and and here's the the argument that he wants to make.

By the way, what you're seeing right here is he is proof that he gets his information from Julie Royce, which is a bad

source.

Yeah, so he tried him he tries to make the point MacArthur Has attacked the

prosperity gospel talking about how they're obsessed with money and how they're extorting the church.

Basically buying salvation all you know, all the all the things we know about the evils true

evils of the prosperity gospel.

And so he then he brings up the fact that this g3 conference is happening and they're charging

$300 per ticket.

Which is for if you've ever been to a conference that I mean It might be a little bit much for me to pay but it's not people that go

to conferences.

They pay that all the time.

It's really not that crazy of a price, but so he makes this whole point and And it's

because like ten people on YouTube before him made the exact same point and it was just like a big talking point there.

Everybody in the charismatic circles wanted to talk about but he was so what he tries to do is say John MacArthur attacks

people Because they want prosperity or they're pursuing the prosperity gospel and then he's gonna charge $300 for this

conference.

Which what John MacArthur isn't doing?

And He's worth 15 million dollars or whatever.

He has all these houses blah blah blah and then he says the hypocrisy the hypocrisy the hypocrisy so to make this huge point the John

MacArthur has money, but then John MacArthur attacks people that That pursue the prosperity

gospel or whatever now That is insane.

Because if you think the reason John MacArthur is attacking Prosperity preachers is because they

because they have money then you're not listening.

Exactly.

The prosperity gospel is not Wicked because you make money because money is not

wicked in and of itself the reason the prosperity gospel is wicked is because you are charging money for

Christ and That is the most wicked thing anybody could ever do.

Yeah, and Justin Peters has made that point numerous times.

You know, he said I it doesn't matter if the Lord has blessed you financially it's

how you're obtaining that money correct in that they're obtaining it on the backs of.

Sick and needy people correct with lies based on lies exactly.

Using the gospel as a bait.

Yeah, bring in as a bait.

Bring in money.

Yeah, because because the difference is saying if you give me money God's gonna bless you.

That's a prequel quote, right?

That's not what MacArthur does.

MacArthur is is working hard writing books and and he's getting paid for those things.

Yeah.

He says oh and John MacArthur's name is on a Bible by the way.

Okay.

That might sound really bad but you you if you don't see the difference between John MacArthur publishing a Bible that has his

study notes in it and calling the John MacArthur study Bible.

If you don't see the difference between that and literally standing up on TV and saying so your seed

and the Lord will bless you.

If you don't see the difference then I'm Sorry, you just you're.

You don't want to stand the wickedness of what's happening in the prosperity preaching you.

You brought up the what he talked about the conference.

He's talking about the conference and the price.

Now I think if I got this right, this is where his co -host actually makes our audience.

Yeah.

He pushes.

I can't believe you left this in yeah.

Our most expensive ticket which came with a meal was $100 for three days or for three hours.

Theirs is $2 .99 for three days.

So and we also know at the end of our event We didn't even break even I think we ate

a couple hundred dollars.

So is it possible that there's behind -the -scenes things going on when it comes to logistics that actually do

cost a lot of money.

I'm sure they're they're profiting some because they're they're shrewd business people but is it a

such an insane amount that It's worth to poke at.

Okay.

So so one thing and I and I guess I got it cut it too.

Too late.

Where he admits that they didn't fly people in for their conference.

So their conference is $100 for three hours.

Compared to $300 for three days all day.

You've got hotels you got flights and and they didn't make my so.

Okay this I'm saying in jest in case they're watching this is a this is a joke I'm but.

They say that the guys at g3 are shrewd businessmen.

I guess they're not.

I Guess these guys aren't because they lost money.

Right.

They're saying that these guys are shrewd businessmen.

So they'll know how to make money.

I guess since they lost money.

They're not sure business just just a joke.

But the reality is that they're making the point less that you you were just starting to make

and and you're right I'm I was kind of it is interesting.

They left this in because I almost think that this was.

You know, sometimes we can go off on a rant.

But it looks like they prepared that rant because he's got all the clips the show.

Oh, look how MacArthur is this.

MacArthur is that and then his co -host is kind of.

Tapering it down a bit.

Yeah, his his his it think it's his producer.

He's pushing back on him and basically saying like oh, come on, you know, they're just charging money for a conference we did the same thing and but

which is Interesting, but but then it goes back to Ruslan and Ruslan says no.

No, no.

No, I'm not.

I'm not worried about money.

I'm worried about the hypocrisy.

Yeah, which is actually even worse because you think that it's hypocritical for MacArthur to talk about making money.

When?

Talking about prosperity preachers when you want to talk about MacArthur making money for writing books

and you know Selling his commentary and things like that.

Again the point is if Ruslan does not understand the difference between a Christian making money

doing good solid biblical ministry never promising something in return for sowing your seed

Versus Benny Hinn if you don't understand the difference between those two kinds of people then

you're just blind to what's actually happening.

Yeah, and and I mean we've already said it but the fact that MacArthur Wasn't even

interviewed for the film.

He's not running the conference.

It's it's it's just it's the big name to get the attention.

What's happening is what it does and I'm not saying this is what Ruslan is trying to do.

But this is why many others I know do.

You mentioned MacArthur because that's the lightning rod and all the MacArthur haters will like you.

For giving them a reason to hate MacArthur more.

Okay, this is just the way.

People do things and so and we don't we don't have a whole lot of reformed

celebrities to choose from so.

How many famous there's like Sproul.

There's MacArthur.

How many other famous in in the League of the guys that.

Charismatics have on TV.

We don't have anybody right now.

There's.

I do want to touch on that John MacArthur clip he played.

For the reason of this is what I have seen when I was in the charismatic movement

from personal conversations.

Because MacArthur in that clip talks about just to give me Christ.

Give me Christ in the good.

Give me Christ in the bad.

I just want Christ.

If I have Christ that is all I need.

Right.

It is essentially what that clip is.

And so I asked.

He was a young man at the time.

He was just getting into worship music and playing and learning guitar and things like that.

But he was big in the charismatic movement.

He was big into all of that stuff and I Asked him.

I said.

Okay, if you could have.

If you can have Christ without the spiritual gifts, would you still want

Christ?

See and that that's the Scripture issue right there.

That's that is not I Don't think that's as uncommon as some people might think because I have

asked a similar type of question too many people that I have discussed this topic with and.

They and this is why at the at the cessationist conference.

I started off now.

Mind you I knew someone in the audience who I disagreed with.

He was very much believing that he speaks in tongues and has these gifts and they continue any it and

I knew he was in the audience is a personal friend of mine and I Said it is

very difficult.

People because they cannot separate that feeling of

spirituality with this experience that they have and.

So when you discuss these issues and I gave a warning there that for for those

For a cessation is to realize this is hard For the continuation is to

discuss this especially in discuss it without emotion.

Because they a lot of them have a very difficult time separating those two.

Okay, and they they they tend to get it tends to become an emotional argument.

Than a biblical argument.

Okay, I'm reminded of man just like thinking about that.

It's it's.

That's a fantastic question.

Just I think a good place for us to pause and ask each of us.

Right, like regardless of the circumstances you and I anybody who's listening to my voice anybody who's watching right now.

Any of these brothers on the screen that I love.

Dear you know a good question for all of us is We have Christ.

Is he enough?

Is he like I'm reminded of the words one of my favorite modern hymns.

It's called is my worth is not in what I own and the chorus of that is I rejoice in my Redeemer greatest

treasure Wellspring of my soul and I will trust in him.

No other my soul is satisfied.

Satisfied in him alone.

I'm a little disappointed.

You didn't sing it.

Bro, don't don't I'll get my guitar.

Well Well, go ahead.

But no, I mean that's a fantastic question for all of us to ask and that's that's that right there Drew is

and is is why I say this is not a secondary issue.

This is a primary issue.

Well the but when we say this and this is what I keep coming back to right?

It's the sufficiency of Scripture.

Yep, and That's what makes it important.

I I would argue I'm on the fence whether this is secondary or.

You know or primary?

Yeah, I I think it really is for in most sense.

I would say this is a secondary issue.

I mean, it's clearly something that I don't break fellowship over.

Okay, because I have many friends who who believe in in the continuation of gifts but

the issue though is I.

When I'm looking at it, it's okay.

What is your view of Scripture?

Are you believing that's sufficient?

Let me let me give it.

Let me give an example.

Many of you here, you know, Matt's like good friend of mine one of my best friends.

He and I disagree on this.

We've debated it on this show several times.

We've we've debated it actually on his radio show several times.

We've debated it at churches several times.

We had a discussion about cessation this movie before it came out.

For the conference he thought the conference and you know and

so the thing is now I admit, I I don't like having the discussions with Matt anymore because

You as you saw on the show.

He takes it too personal.

Okay, and starts to be like, oh are you calling me that saying that I'm not godly.

No, I'm not saying that like there's ways to explain this but but see peel take it personal.

However, do I believe Matt believes in the sufficiency of Scripture?

Yes.

Right.

He's someone who does hold a very high view of Scripture.

He's not looking for an experience but he he believes that this experience he

had is True and from God and he he doesn't look at any other

possible.

So he he used that and when he comes to Scripture, it must be true because his experience.

But he's not sitting there and looking for the next experience.

So there is a difference like with a Matt slick.

Then with people that are looking for the next experience or you can even say a guy like Martin Lloyd -jones.

Like he was a continuationist and he did some really wonky things.

Especially in terms of like the seal of the Holy Spirit and Ephesians chapter 1 and

He nobody Preached and proclaimed like he did nobody exposited like he did.

But at the same time you can see the fruit that plays out from that because now his church is.

Nothing like that.

Well, I think that had more to do with mr. Facebook user wants to know if that's.

Is that scalp?

It's not cool, it'd be really nice if mr. Facebook user would you know, it's

happy and put his name in there.

Brandon to your point.

I think that has more to do with RT Kendall who came in after.

After Lloyd -.

Jones, yeah, but he couldn't came in if there wasn't a crap, right?

Right, but and so so RT Kendall was was I think he was the associate pastor

to to Lloyd -jones.

But RT Kendall was a it wasn't just maybe kind of borderline a continuationist with a

seat belt.

He was a full -blown charismatic.

Yeah, but a lot of what we're seeing is like when we talked earlier about hearing the voice of God.

A Lot of these people are not looking to scripture as their final authority, but

their selves.

Yeah, I have a as far as this first versus second first First tier

second tier first tier second tier issue I'm having trouble

sort of distinguishing this myself because now now it's sort of like the promoting of the film and stuff

and Facebook group and Facebook page and I'm having all these interactions with charismatics that are

responding to the movie and they're basically saying This isn't worth the

fight you're being divisive for one you're not calling you're saying we're not safe.

So and I guess if we're saying first tier means gospel

central issue then Then yeah, we're not saying we're kicking you out of the kingdom.

No, because it doesn't it's it's yeah, you can believe the the

justification by faith alone and you can also Hold to these things, but the issue is and this

is something I get in trouble for for saying but I still stand by Greenville

interviewed me at g3 and The the interview went up and remnant radio

played it and then Ruslan even played it on his show.

It's me saying because of the practices that these people are participating in they're

actually practicing a different religion and When I said that that made

them very upset and I can understand why because that word Practicing a different religion that

term Can certainly mean, you know, like Islam is to practice a different

religion, you know, so that word practice.

But when I'm what I meant was You're practicing in practice.

You are doing things that are completely foreign to scripture.

You and you are practicing things that and I called it Gnostic and I also called it magic.

Which they didn't like any of those words.

But the reason I'm saying The reason I'm saying that is because the

actual outworking of the things that people are doing today the modern charismatic

versions of prophecy tongues and The gift of healing the

you know, the ability to go around actually heal people.

Look nothing like the biblical gifts.

That's right.

And so where did they come from?

That's the question tongues is easiest one to look at.

Yeah, where did you get this idea that talking in gibberish is?

The biblical gift of tongues and and they their whole argument is if you can't prove it from

scripture that these gifts have ceased then.

Then then that's the end of the argument somehow they think that's the end of the argument.

So if they don't, you know, if they don't buy your interpretation Andrew that the the

full did the The complete the complete was Closing of the can in the

perfect if they don't buy that then it's like oh, then there's no verse and so Tongues is now

gibberish that does not follow.

Nope.

Actually saw in history as well, right?

We see that here, you know Agnes Ousmane she she ends up

she what does she believe.

She believes she is speaking Chinese?

And I you know, and you guys have it in the film that the.

So solely for those that don't know.

So Justin Peters got that what she wrote.

Saying it's Chinese.

And he calls me up and says I need to get.

I need to be on a video call with you and I need to send you something for your wife to.

To look at folks who don't know my wife is Asian.

Okay, she reads Chinese and he says he just says to her he says this is this is

someone writing Chinese.

What do you think of it?

And my bride just looks at it and says Justin that's chicken scratch.

It was right.

This is not Chinese in Chinese.

And when he puts that up there you can clearly see the difference between the two.

Yeah, and so.

What happens.

She goes there to China expecting to evangelize.

She has this experience and this is this is what I when I talk of the sufficiency of scripture.

She has an experience and instead of questioning her experience She'll question scripture.

So she has this experience.

She's speaking in Chinese.

She goes over to China.

She can't speak to anybody.

She can't write that anyone understands.

She fails in speaking Chinese because she's not speaking Chinese.

She comes back and instead of saying I must have been wrong.

She says Scripture must be wrong now.

She's not gonna say it outwardly.

What she's saying is it must be that I'm speaking in angelic language.

And there's only one passage in all the Bible that where they can get an argument teaching

angelic language.

1st Corinthians chapter 13 verse 1 where he's comparing love.

The the primate part the primary point being love.

And he's saying if I could speak all of the language.

He's using it.

Yeah being the key word there.

Yeah, if I could speak of the tongues of all men even of angels

He's exaggerating.

How do I know that.

Because I read verse 2 if I have all knowledge

and Understand all mysteries if you had all knowledge you would be God.

Okay, Paul clearly is not claiming.

He has the ability to be omniscient and be God so very clearly what he's doing in

verse 2 and therefore we can see in verse 1 he is using the

Technique of exaggeration to the extreme to say if I could do far beyond what's humanly

possible.

But I don't have love.

I'm nothing.

So basically saying love is everything.

Right.

Love is far more important than all than fighting over the gifts.

Well, he's actually he's encouraging them not to look to these.

Yeah, he's Trusting in and pursuing these gifts in an unhealthy way over against their

pursuit, correct?

And and the thing the thing is is that look Agnes Osmond it was

only took her a few years from saying she speaks Chinese to returning home and saying she

speaks an angelic language and and what she should have done is say

obviously, I didn't have the gift of Chinese and I was wrong but

instead.

Because her experience is what's primary?

She continues so but so this is kind of the point that I was trying to make is the first versus secondary.

Is is okay.

It's not a gospel issue.

That's that's true.

But what you're doing is fake and that's why Matt slick takes it.

So personally because it's ABS it is absolutely personal.

You're saying the things you are doing are fake.

Objectively fake and that that strikes at a person that's that's a really deep cut to somebody

who thinks that like they're doing.

They're really participating in this stuff.

We're saying no.

Sorry your prophecies.

They're fake your tongues.

They're fake if you think that you can lay out of hands and heal people and I know not all charismatics actually hold to that

that's sort Of a more that really is more of a fringe charismatic belief.

They basically agree with us that you pray for somebody to be healed and they are healed or whatever.

But we're saying that these practices are fake.

Well, I would.

So I was in terms of who's who's the fringe and is this a first year second tier.

When we look at the popular those who are the most popular the mainstream.

Who practice these and what make what would make a group heretical, right?

It's their teaching about Christ.

And so we see it and I think you pointed this out in in the in the movie, right?

The Montanus movement had Calvin and the Libertines.

You had Spurgeon and the Quakers, right?

You have all these movements that claim to speak that claimed to speak in tongues.

But they were all heretical movements because they taught falsely about Christ and when we look at the mainstream now.

They're they're the Bill Johnson's the Mike pickles the the Joel Osteen's, right?

They speak falsely about Christ, but now the fringe I would say the fringe is

actually those who would be like a DA Carson.

Those people who we would look at as scholars and we would say wow, he's done some

great work in this area.

We know he holds a scripture.

He's written a great book on exegesis.

Even if I disagree with his application through his view of the gifts, I would say the

guys like him are actually the fringe.

Yeah, can I give you a just a little sample of the danger that I see coming yes in this moment.

So we've so yes, like the the televangelist stuff right the prosperity gospel.

We've all seen it and when I got into this project That's what I thought this this all was and

now this is what I'm realizing.

Is this this YouTube?

Movement, so a few things about it.

A movie just came out the domino revival and it's it's these the demon slayers go on

the front Mark Driscoll is a part of these guys and if you if you guys have ever listened to Mark Driscoll.

The guy can preach the gospel.

Yep.

Now that sounds very good, but it's actually very troubling because All of

these televangelist guys, it's very easy to pick apart their doctrine and show how they're misrepresenting Christ.

But now you have Mike I

Forgot his name that the main guy and no no, no the main guy in the the domino revival.

In and so so but in even like out Isaiah Saldivar, right?

Like this this really big personality right now.

These guys know the gospel.

They can actually preach it.

It's a very simple gospel, you know, it's nothing you're gonna hear in an in a you know, expository church or anything like that.

But so they know the gospel for one.

For two one of the very interesting things that I'm realizing is so they call this thing a revival.

That all these people are getting caught up in the charismatic movement and it's growing so much.

But what is that?

Well, if you make flashy YouTube videos that you're loud and you're energetic you are getting

caught into a YouTube algorithm that's gonna keep pumping this stuff into Christians who are

looking for doctrine and stuff.

So what they think is a revival is really just The YouTube algorithm, so I'm calling that the

the algorithm revival.

That's all it actually is but but the other thing this is another really scary thing that I'm just now realizing.

If you're a televangelist, what do you have to do?

You got to say so your seed because you need these people on these butts and seats at home to send you money.

Write a check put it in an envelope and actually send it to you.

That's what you need to happen.

If you want to get rich if you want to but but these guys don't need to do this.

Isaiah Saldivar does never ask for money.

They do these conferences for free and they they say bring your objects will cast the demons out of your objects and all this stuff.

Yeah, they might ask for a love gift at the end of the conference or whatever.

But where are they making money YouTube?

They're making money from these social media.

So they don't they don't have to ask you for money anymore.

So so they think they're morally superior.

They think that they're the next generation.

They don't have to do this anymore.

So they're making money.

They're actually preaching a very basic gospel and they think that they're involved in this

massive Revival, so the deception is huge and it's gonna be a totally different kind

of animal going forward.

Well, that brings up a good point too, man.

It's just like, you know with Driscoll or with with others.

It's like the guys that get the formula of the gospel, right?

Like Drew and I've talked about well, at least I get the gospel, right?

What's like?

Say again Brandon they get a pass seemingly.

Well, yeah, but but you know.

Here's here's the deadly part about that right.

One drop of poison in a in a 32 ounce bottle of water can kill you.

Right, and and that's what they do is is there's poison that's wrapped in this sweet Succulent

cake that is the gospel.

And that's that.

That's something else with these guys.

Well Chris, you know, like I've said with those people who say well.

At least they they get the gospel, right?

Yeah, but if they got if you're if you know the formula of the gospel, but it has not affected you.

All right, and you don't get it, right?

Yeah.

Well, listen, we got to try to land this plane.

So speaking speaking of making money, I mean, let's go to our sponsors.

My pillow.

I Knew we are eventually gonna get to that part of the film.

So I figured me but.

How long is my pillow been sponsoring you?

Ah a couple years now.

All right, so we continue.

Yeah, so that means you guys must be continuing to buy products from them because yeah, I need a

new pillow.

Yeah, or they just forgot.

Yeah, so so we they have been sponsoring us for a long time actually.

Yeah, I guess I guess um.

Since kovat I think is when they they started or shortly before I forget.

But yeah, the but but I I love their products.

I I will say that their mattress top.

I'll say this I have a guest coming on on my wrap -up or podcast when I got done talking about my

pillow.

He he decided he was gonna explain the mattress topper.

He basically made the decision.

Do I buy a new bed or?

Or just pay a couple hundred dollars for a new mattress topper and keep the same bed and he was like I'll buy the

mattress topper.

He got the three -inch mattress topper, which is what I have on my bed and it's wonderful.

Yeah, it might be costly, but it's like getting a whole new bed and a lot cheaper, so.

Yeah, just if you go to my pillow comm use promo code.

SFE stands for striving for attorney.

That way they know that we sent you and that is how they support us to continue to do.

What we do it striving for eternity.

So I just I knew that was gonna come.

I think at this point I think I got this to the right spot where they're gonna talk about the fact.

That they have their their guys that no one's willing to challenge.

So let's let's see if I got this to the right spot.

If not, I'll have to move it.

Say someone else is a scammer or is doing it for the wrong reasons.

When you believe what they what they teach is critical.

Yeah, I don't think that's the right spot.

Let me just move it forward.

So maybe it was here.

I should have marked it openly challenging.

Here we go.

MacArthur for a decade on this.

Hold on.

Let me back this up.

The brothers from remnant radio has.

Back this up because this is where you know, there was some discussion then.

Alright, here we go.

A lot amount of people are getting the right message, correct?

So in their head, they don't they're not able to detach themselves from their own paradigm.

Yes.

And put it through the demon slayers perspective because the demon slayers Perspective would be the same thing if we're making any money.

It's because there's a large amount of people a sheer volume.

Yeah large amount of people being impacted with the right message.

Yep.

And so to think that they're both doing it for wrong reasons or both of them making revenue is bad.

Like they're not charging people $5 ,000 a ticket like $2 .99 still relatively affordable.

Yes, you know.

Yes, so here's the punchline and all of it don't.

And this and by the way a deeper issue.

I do think that what happened here is his co -host or producer reasoned with him and He

backed away and this is like, okay, I still want to go after it.

So let me just do a different tact.

I just I feel like that's what happened.

I can't I don't know his heart.

So I'm not saying that is what happened.

Just that's what it seems to me.

Like oh this argument didn't work.

Let me just try a different one.

Wait, you mean the spirit didn't give you a word of knowledge to tell you that?

Yeah.

No, no I didn't.

I didn't read it in the Bible.

Just check.

Yeah, I.

I Personally, I think isn't just sad.

It isn't just discouraging.

It isn't just divisive.

It isn't just passive -aggressive baited bait beta behavior.

I don't know how else to describe it.

The fact that all these guys from the Justin Peters to the John McArthur's to Whoever else is involved in

this all of these guys have historically ran from debating anyone from the continuation aside.

True.

Let's let him keep going.

Has been openly challenging John McArthur for a decade on this since they did it first.

Strange fire compass the brothers from remnant radio has publicly offered to debate Anyone on this topic.

So the fact that you are going to put a documentary out.

You are going to do a conference while questioning people's salvation who have a disagreement on secondary

doctrines.

Okay, so so first I just want to land on the last part.

So I want to get it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know anybody that's involved in the cessationist film or the conference

that is doubting people's Salvation solely upon the continuation of gifts.

I don't and this was the argument I made with Matt slick when Matt When we when this film was cut when the conference was coming out

Matt said this was such a divisive issue.

And I said to him I said Matt you have an entire website devoted to Calvinism.

People divide over Calvinism saying that others are not saved.

We're that's not happening in by with the cessationist.

We're not saying you're not saved Calvinist, you know people will say with Calvinist that they're not saved.

That's far more divisive and he said you're right.

Right, so he dropped that argument.

No one's saying that I don't know where that's coming from.

But are there people, you know, Michael Brown's willing to be.

You know on on this remnant radio will do they'll debate anyone.

Well Ruslan I'm right here I'll take the debate.

No problem.

You're saying no one is willing.

That's clearly not true.

You know how I know it.

Hi.

I'm here and there's plenty of others who are willing to do well.

This is I mean, this is what they did.

This is what David did.

In responding to this is he literally just you do a quick Google search.

Cessationism debate with Michael Brown who's specifically the person that he said.

Nobody debate with.

There's many debate.

Yeah, what that he mentioned.

Sam Storms who also debated and Just view I mean I

you know, someone asked me whether I would debate Sam Storms on this issue and I said yes.

My plan was to use Sam Storms own words in his first book on this subject because you know.

Sam would change his view on this right?

So he wrote a book on cessationism.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, and I went and found it in the used bookstore.

So I make sure I could get it.

So yeah, so so the thing is is that What we see is that when you say

no one's willing here's what this really means.

No one with a big enough platform That will benefit us.

There it is.

Yeah, so here's the thing remnant radio.

You want to prove me wrong?

Debate me.

If you're not willing to debate me because my platform is not big enough Then

I'm sorry Ruslan.

The reality then is that they're looking to make numbers.

They're just looking for platform.

I'm looking to do ministry.

I don't care how big your platform is.

I've never followed these guys.

I don't know who they are.

Yeah, I've heard remnant radio mentioned.

I you know until we started this I saw in the beginning people were saying that Ruslan's got a

big platform.

I didn't even look at it.

I'm not interested in that.

But if you won't debate me because my platform is not as big as yours are big enough.

You just want the big name John MacArthur.

Well, yes, you're not.

Challenges there.

It's the thing is too.

It's like I think a Lloyd -jones.