Review of a Critic of the Cessationist Film

Okay, so you're saying that because you read the Bible for 20 years and meditate upon it. No one has done that May be done that but Certainly, I am among the top 1 % who spend that much of meditation and reading scriptures

So that you are saying I I just came up with some Opinion and then

I try to find it on the scriptures. It's not like that. Okay I have a question.

Does your arm hurt? No, no, because I mean you're patting yourself on the back so much.

I was afraid your arm might hurt You know, I was just I mean leaning on the wall.

Did you did you know that pride is a sin? It's actually like the number one Okay, I know

I know all that shaming tactics. It's not a shaming tactic. You just praise yourself

Yeah, you're in the you're in the top percent of all

Christians in the world You should be ashamed of yourself

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with being in the top 1 % of all the

Christians in the world, that's not prideful at all, I'm sure Welcome to apologetics live.

I'm your host Andrew Rafferty. We're glad to be back here on another Thursday evening here to answer your most

Challenging questions about God in the Bible. I Can answer any question you might have about God in the

Bible. I can answer any question you might have about the Bible You have about God in the Bible if you doubt that bring me your most challenging question go to apologetics live .com

Scroll down to the little duck icon for stream yard Click on that join us and give me your best shot.

Just remember one thing. I Don't know is a perfectly good answer And with that, let me bring in.

Mr. Drew Von Nita. How are you, sir? I'm doing well I'm doing well another Thursday and I'm back here this time.

My wife's not working. So I don't have To have control of the little ones and try to do a show at the same time

But I'm excited you're here for two weeks in a row. Hey I'm setting a record that so we do want to be thankful that you welcomed us into your kitchen

Yeah, no problem I'm happy for everyone to be here. This is the kitchen is the new family room of the house, right?

So we want everyone to be in the kitchen and we have a really big kitchen For for a double wide.

I mean this kitchen is huge Well good good. I'm gonna bring we got a special guest backstage.

I'm gonna bring him in and we're gonna be reviewing a review of the cessationist film

So but before we get to that let's talk about the cessationist film It'd be good to get someone that knows something about it.

What is this a little bit? I mean, I think I think he's got just a tiny bit of insider knowledge

Well, let's find out. Mr. Les Lansphere. My friend. How are you, sir? Hey.

Hey, thanks for having me I do know I do know a little bit about the movie. Yeah Ask me your toughest question about the cessationist movie

How many times have you seen it? Small pieces

No, that's the dirty seat. Well, there's a fun part at the end of making a movie that Documentaries or whatever whatever it is that I do that Every morning you have to wake up in the morning and watch the entire thing

Take notes and then you work on those notes throughout the day render it out at night Then you watch it again.

So for probably two months. I watched it every single day If not multiple times a day

You see you love your work I never want to see it again. Yeah, you know,

I have a question about that as someone who does movies documentaries films

Going at putting it together directing it And then doing all the editing the the time it takes to do the editing

I mean, it's a very very long process, right? We're talking a year at the least and Probably a lot more

Yeah About two years for the entire movie about a year and a half that I was involved in Sort of those meticulous details.

Yeah. Yeah. So once it's done. Are you are you just finally glad like you're just like, okay

Like do you get to a point to where you're like, okay. I've watched my favorite movie so much. I'm sick of it. Yeah well, this is a little window into my own psyche, but I Into it's the weirdest thing.

It's happened with I've made three movies It happens with each one that I just I plunge into a very deep depression

At the end of every film that I make there's something about all that pressure that you know

There's deadline looming and then it's all over my creative endeavor is done and there's just something about it

That it's just like I I don't know what it is, but I don't know what to do now, I guess

Yeah, there's a little bit of that. I'm over. I'm over that that time. That was probably like two or three weeks

But we're past that now and now I know you just need another project. That's all now

For folks to realize you you're the producer of the cessation of film. You're one of the three guys

That headed this up. Yeah, i'm the director technically director and editor are my titles.

Yep Yeah, you're okay. You're you're director David lovey and tim

Cannon also worked with you on this. Yeah, david lobey wrote the movie and tim cannon was the producer

Yeah, and they they did their their own film previously and I you know I've had had some of you guys on before me when this was just a kickstarter

Uh, I I loved I I remember that I remember a special night where the four of us.

Yes Late at night as we watched it. Finally go over the yeah The the the final step to get into the kickstarter to where it was official.

It was gonna be And you yep you celebrated with us it was a beautiful thing. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I Here's one of the things i've noticed about Your documentary movies is that each one?

Is just better and better and they draw you in right? So calvinist was phenomenal and then uh

True truth and spirit spirit and truth spirit and truth. That's right was mind -blowing

Because of how deep it went into the the discussion of worship and then uh the cessationist movie

Is they all just keep getting better and better? Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean

I think calvinist probably Represents my personality the most it was like very playful and uh, there's a lot of like Nostalgia 80s sort of like references and stuff throughout in the graphics and stuff like that Uh, but this one is we we hired a videographer for this one

I'm, i'm kind of a jack -of -all -trades like I can do anything if I need to But um, we hired a videographer who is much more talented than I am

For this film and uh, I mean just that one piece was huge and then we also had a

Creative director that was building sets for us and costumes and we did this whole Thing where we we shot reenactments of biblical miracles um, so I mean the production value of this film is is

Certainly better than anything i've ever done in the past Yeah, and you and there is a behind the scenes, uh portion two where people can see that Yeah, but you also do animation right you do a lot of the animation work in in your movies.

Yeah Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, all of it. I said you I do the And in this one

I did the directing editing Uh motion graphics, so, uh, you know all the moving words on the screen and stuff like that animations and then visual effects, too

So there's even some you know, like fire elements and you know, all the yeah All the stuff set extensions all that Yeah, it was it was neat and and I you know, the flow of the argument was was good you know, of course, yeah, and you know

I would I would have just the only critique I actually had was I would have liked it at the end a little bit more

And you're gonna know you're probably gonna expect me to say it but a little bit more time spent on the sufficiency of scripture sure, um, yeah, you you you know, that was my big thing that I wanted to like see emphasized but Well, andrew you you do make a good point there about the flow, right?

Yeah Because as a preacher when we're drafting sermons, we're putting them together

And we're ordering it we want our our sermons To be linear we want the point to flow into point and that's what it does when you watch this movie

Each point flows into the next point seamlessly Yeah, imagine just writing a sermon for like a year and a half and then animating and all that it's

I mean obviously for a year and a half But but make no mistake. I uh, you know

There's a lot of like christian filmmakers like christian artists that that want to call themselves ministers And this is my ministry and right all these things.

I I there's i'm not confused Like I know that you know filmmaking is a it's a blessing to the church

It's a blessing to me that I can do these things but uh, this is no replacement for teach, you know, uh teaching from your pastor and Actually being in in a church and all those things.

So, uh, yeah christian filmmaking is a great thing But if god if god just pulled the plug on it tomorrow the church would not be any

Less off because god will do his work through the actual preaching of the word well, and and let me say this

I mean you know, I think I've said this to you privately less but There's typically what we've seen in the past when christians do film

They're horrible. I mean like like we watch it because of the message and it's like oh, this is so corny.

Yeah That's the one thing different that i'm starting to see now. I know you're you're the stuff you've done has been that way it's a a better quality and and something where it's

Not just educational but entertaining Yeah, we want to raise the bar.

Yeah, we don't want it to be corny and it's it's Granted it's a lot easier this day and age as long as you sort of know what you're doing

Uh, the technology is available and the equipment is getting just cheaper and cheaper Um, so it's not not to say that we're like better than the people that were doing it in the 80s and 90s or whatever

It was just it was just a very expensive gig back then You know with with all the editing that had to take place

I'm sure there was a lot that just didn't make it into the video, right?

That's on the cutting room floor Especially with the interviews that were done up in kootenai Because I know jim likes to give a lot of information

Um, and I know kevin hay was that he only had I think one or two maybe spots in there So I know those guys have a lot more to say

Oh, yeah Should we expect maybe almost an editor's cut that has?

Some more of those interviews in there I don't know if there'll be an editor's cut but they're uh,

I mean all that content is so, you know, I have For all the for all three films

I have just hard drives filled with with stuff and the one that I just always think about Is I have a two -hour interview with r .c.

Sproul in the last year of his life for calvinist Nobody's ever seen it. So i'm just sitting on this gold mine of all this

It's it's sproul talking about calvinism and it's just it's just fantastic. It's how long?

Uh two hours you could just Release that just by itself Yeah Yeah, good.

Oh, man Yeah, so let me look at some of the comments we got coming in here. Um So Okay, well first off we got welcome willie

She she says I have watched this show for months and months and never knew there was a live chat till tonight

Ha ha too funny. Yes, if you go to the youtube You can watch it live

And if you need to know how to get to youtube and you're watching it on the page Well, there's a link right there, uh on apologetics live so, uh chris honhold says

Okay, finally done now. What? What what do you got now?

um Well, uh as far well, I have some more there's there's some other stuff that needs to be done with uh with cessationist

There's there's a sort of an extended project that's happening. Um Right, uh, we've been we're just we're talking about stuff.

Um My dreams are I really want to make a movie about the sovereignty of god. That's that's a big thing that I want to do

Uh, the trinity also is a subject Uh that I really want to tackle two great topics that are continually misrepresented just like cessationism is that's right.

Yeah um When i'm ready to just completely cut my audience in half i'm gonna do a movie on pedo -baptism uh

Like a good frisbee. Yeah, we'll wait for that movie um

And yeah, so all kinds of all kinds of fun fun ideas I'll support it. Don't worry

Thank you. Yeah, i'll probably end up backing that too. Yeah. Yeah. All right So, let's see, uh d is saying

I'm seeing a lot of people say that cessationists believe that all of the spiritual gifts have ceased

They love to misrepresent the position. That's that's the thing is You see a lot of the people.

Oh, well, you don't believe in the holy spirit We'll see this in this review of this video like like We don't believe his holy spirit's working

If you don't believe in one gift now, here's the thing uh Let's if you have your bibles open go back to genesis

Chapter two. I know we're going back to the beginning, right? And if we look at what god says to adam

As he is sitting there um He he says to the the man as he creates the garden

It says not good for him to be alone creates a woman but before that He says to the man

I'm, just trying to find the exact verse so I could read it But he says to the man that he can eat of any tree of the garden but one

Here it is verse nine out of the ground the lord made cause To grow every tree that is pleasing in the sight that is good for food the tree of life

Also in the midst of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, okay, so he creates that tree

And he says to man this is verse 16. The lord god commanded that man saying from every tree

In the garden you may freely eat but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil You shall not eat for the day you eat of it.

You will surely die now I'm emphasizing this for a reason as we go to chapter three with the fall

I'm going to start with what eve says When eve is challenged she picks up on what adam was told

Okay for the most part but the satan tries to deceive her and Well, let me start with what the satan says.

So so the serpent more crafty Than any of the beasts of the field which the lord god had made and he said to the woman

Indeed has god said to you you shall not eat from any tree of the garden

And the woman said from the fruit of the trees we may eat but not the fruit of the tree

That's in the middle of the garden okay, so She understands she can eat of every tree but one adam understands that he was told he could eat of every tree but one

But what is it satan says if there's one thing you can't do then that's everything

Right, so this is the deception of satan So what do you have when you have people that say well, we believe certain gifts have stopped have ceased

Then you don't believe any of the gifts Who does that sound like? I'm, just saying

I'm, just reading scripture. I'm, sorry um But when they

I mean and there's a lot of different people you'll see do this like You know women's role in the church. Oh, if you don't let a woman be a pastor

You don't let her do anything. No, she could do everything but one you know, we could do all the gifts but these couple that You know at least three that god said will cease

Just saying i'm sure we'll get that Yeah, you guys have anything you want to comment on that? I was thinking about something this morning.

Um You know, they talk about how uh, god is the same yesterday today and forever and uh, you know if if jesus gave these gifts to this first century church, then they must still be uh in existence today

And I was thinking about commandments in scripture that were never explicitly commanded to come to an end but clearly have

And I thought about the manna in the wilderness So god rains down this manna he gives them very specific instructions go out in the morning

Uh gather the manna Uh on saturday you gather on friday you gather twice as much so you'll have enough for the sabbath um, but so he tells them that this is what you're to do and this is how and then yes in joshua they enter the land the eat of the the

Food of the land and then the manna does stop falling But got but the command is never taken away where god says to go out every morning and gather manna so uh to to The fact that the manna isn't there

Is is a clear indication that you can no longer gather it, right? And so it would be like me saying well, the command is still in place.

God never took it away So i'm going to go out in my backyard every morning and i'm going to gather Whatever whatever is there and then i'll just call it manna and that's what it's essentially what it's like to You know speak in gibberish and call it tongues because you think you have to speak in tongues.

So you're just you're grasping Yeah, you're grasping for anything that you can call tongues because you can't actually do the biblical gift of tongues right a better argument for that would be and and i'm going to say better from your position as a presbyterian because i'm going to disagree with this is a good argument, but No, actually, no,

I think it'll be better for me. No, so so but you you'll see and i can't remember where the

Passover was commanded for israel to keep forever

Yeah, right, but but We don't keep it forever Now right we're gonna have differences i'm gonna say it's because israel should still be keeping it to get forever

Which presents an interesting issue for me being jewish. Should I be keeping it forever? Just saying but but You know, it's complicated yeah,

I mean if if I mean from presbyterian view, I would think that you should be keeping it if you're still israel just saying no, but but Well, we're in we are in a new covenant

Yeah, but he says keep it forever, right? Right, right But but the passover we would say the passover was fulfilled in christ.

So we're it's kept by Christ being the blood that is on our the lentil of our hearts and the angel of death

Passed over us in that in that sense. So christ is just like, uh, this we're getting way off subject but Let me let people know this is what it's like when less than I get together

These technical things between our beliefs that it gets fun Just just like the son of david sits on the throne forever

Solomon certainly did not and the lineage of david ceased as far as kingdom goes

But the son of david does sit on the throne forever. It's but it's christ. It's not his literal

It's not his immediate son. It's it's christ fulfilling that promise. Yeah So let me bring in uh, one of our other speakers at striving for eternity.

Mr. Aaron Brewster. How are you, sir? I am doing very well. Thanks for having me.

There's a lot of people around the screen And still one in the back. This is this is the first time we have seen aaron on apologex live in The same location as he's been before That's right.

This is the only duplicate there's ever been So so less Every time aaron has been on he's either been in a different he's always in a different location and often a different state

Last time I was on I was I was driving in a vehicle. I mean, I really mixed it up then all right, so so someone had commented with what

I was saying as far as Uh d was saying with eve. Do you think eve exaggerated when she said to not even touch it?

Uh, a lot of people give eve a hard time. Just keep in mind We do not know where she got that information from Was it she who came up with that or adam?

I mean it is possible that god told adam don't eat of it and he says don't even touch it

I mean because you know, a lot of guys do that with their wives, you know, it's like Okay, if you shouldn't eat something we got we got to extend a little bit further because you may not listen right now

It's like don't go shopping. But you know what just give me the card instead What is it is it the tanak in uh,

The fence around the law. What's that? What's that called? Well, the the no the tanakh would be the um what we'd call the old testament, okay

So you know what i'm talking about? It's like an extra biblical book that um So there's the tamud

Yeah, that's right. That would be the the rabbi's writings that are so so okay So you have the tanakh is the is the written law

It's the old testament Yeah, what we call testament then the belief is that there was um

The oral law given at moses was was trans, you know transmitted orally down through the years and eventually written down the mishnah

Uh, and then both of them have a commentary. So the the mishnah's commentary is the midrash very um mystical and then the the um

Sorry, that's that's commentary on the written law the oral law that has the uh

A commentary which is the tamud the tamud is what most rabbinic jew jewish rabbis are

Looking at when they're saying what judaism believes I only bring that up because i've heard it i've heard either one of those two books

Referred to as offense around the law. It sounds like that's essentially what what you're saying

At least eve is doing she's at least giving offense around the law and she she probably heard that from adam

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah That's what the pharisees were doing as well they were saying hey god says don't do this

So we're not going to do any of these things here. Yeah. Yeah, like not boiling. Uh, Uh lamb and it's mother's milk and then you can't have dairy and meat in the same meal, right?

Yeah, and then they extend the they extend the the uh, sabbath and things like that.

So, um So, let's see so um

Let's see, uh John says to d I literally just watched the trailer

I will rent it tomorrow Not to be out done rent it buy it.

Yeah, you could do that uh Jason cave one of our members on on youtube says we are going to watch it tomorrow night as a family

Excellent. That's a good family activity. That's what I did with my bride um Okay, so you start a couple others here that so i'm going to just read these because I didn't see them

Ken ham quote all doctrine found in the bible is found in the first 11 chapters of genesis

Well, that that's true and he did he he demonstrated it at g3 this year

Did he? Okay, I didn't I didn't know he was speaking there um

Okay, so, uh I'm gonna you know what i'm gonna bring in mr.

Huff backstage. Here's a question for me that you you uh selected and i'm gonna

Kick it to To you guys because i'm going to be play ignorant Question for andrew which makes it hard because it's a question for me.

Are you aware of the fat finasco? fiasco of the nar

Uh apostle mike pickle any thoughts? No, i'm not aware. I knew something was going on It's bad.

It's bad. It's real bad yeah, and and I all I know is michael brown was there was video supposedly of michael brown defending it and so I I Was planning to go and watch that to figure out what's happening and to see actually what michael's response is going to be um, and so now i'll just mention that part of the reason, uh is

You know, I don't follow michael brown for the record um but When cessationist film came out michael wanted to debate anybody who had anything to do with cessationist

And so I was with the film he wanted to debate I said i'll debate you So he called me up and he was like, you know, what what involvement did you have?

I and I said well, I was a big promoter of it I was helping it get you know Kicked started and and get off the ground and I really wanted to see it get done.

I would you know kind of work behind the scenes with the guys and gave ideas and they you know that uh, and I you know, so I was not in it, but Involved with it in a very small way

And uh, so he so he's like great. Let's debate. Okay so um, don't know why that would have to matter but that I have some involvement in the film, but but uh, yeah, it was something where Uh, we're going to be doing that.

So now i'm having an interest in in His ministry he sent me uh his his very small books, uh, yeah, this is

Israel israel's divine healer. This is uh, like 450 pages almost and his other one's 400 um, so Yeah, I got

I got my work to to do Yeah a little bit Yeah, you know So, uh, and then then

I got this one that I added. It's not his uh, Speaking in tongues a critical historical examination that's on the list as well

Um, who is that by? Uh, that is by let me check philip loster and charles, uh

Sullivan Sullivan, so I don't know who either of them are But someone I know well read it and said it was an excellent book.

And so I said, okay So you guys you want the the mike bickle thing?

Yeah, the the mike bickle debacle so Before before I became reformed right before I became biblical

I was in the vineyard church Stop, stop. Stop. If you're gonna claim to be biblical then at least be pre -mill

No, no, no. No, that's okay. I think you're good Literally andrew i'm i'm only just one step away from basically being presbyterian.

Yeah, it's accepting. That's very true So here here's the thing. Let's talk about that. I didn't tell you about this drew, but we we did get an email

I think it was Not last week, maybe the week before That that someone had emailed saying they love the show and they love

That I keep giving you a hard time about being post mill. So The audience likes it.

I gotta keep giving you a hard time. I'm, sorry That's fine. I can take it. I mean, I think everybody here agrees that you're wrong about being post mill

I think less literally I'm, i'm i'm a millennial. That's yeah, that's what

I mean. I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, which is It's very very close Let me defend my boy for a second, let me defend my boy for a second.

So first of all, first of all, uh less Let me just say publicly and and to you, uh, the film was phenomenal.

Um, It is a must see for every believer a must see um, uh brother,

I just I I i'm so glad we backed it drew and I did as matter of theology and um, Uh, yeah, man, it's it's it's incredible I've i've tried to share it as much as I could much as I can and and and it's it's so important.

Um, So but let me let me let me back up drew here Um, let me say this.

Um, here's what I appreciate about my boy I would put drew Um, even though I am historic pre -mill drew is post mill

Let me let me say this I would put drew when everyone talks about a puritan, you know an eschatology of hope the puritan eschatology of being post mill

What we see circulating on social media today um through the hot take

Folks who just like to throw things out there and take things to the extreme That is not an example

Of of having an eschatology of hope that's an example of being an immature knucklehead Okay.

So what what my boy drew here does Is he gathers his framework albeit

I may disagree with it in this in this moment From the the

Exegetical work that he has done through the scriptures And he approaches it in a way where he echoes the maturity

That we find from the puritans and guys like r .c. Sproul so Let me even even though we disagree

He does it right because there's he he He he wants to be biblically mature.

He wants to be emotionally mature He wants to be a man after god's own heart and live according live a life according to holiness and godliness

And not just saying look at me. I can post this next hot take and completely bash my brothers and You know, look the reality is this is why and and less knows this as well he he and I disagree on Theologically and have talked about for hours late late late nights and you know

But I I appreciate anyone who can be consistent with their Interpretation.

Yeah, even if I don't agree with it. Yep, right if there's if there's an inconsistency then I want to like hey, let's point that out, but You know

I want to see the consistency of it. Um You know that and we could disagree we're all going to be wrong but facebook user here is is showing some support facebook

I support our post mill brother. So, you know, it's actually every facebook user out there supports you

That's that's what I think that is Someone else backstage. I know supports me too. Yeah. Yeah.

I know I was just gonna say what did you like call in help here? Mr. No, it's because i'm wearing the cruciform shirt and it's like a signal that goes out.

Yeah speaking of cruciform pastor Brandon, welcome Hey Well, you got it you got a a conference just coming up maybe is there rumor maybe it's not coming next year next year

Yeah, it's coming up next year as a matter of fact, so, uh, it couldn't be further away, honestly

So august is so we're looking at august, uh first weekend in august yeah first weekend in august, all right, so we're gonna do uh,

You know just in time for less to have a new film out Yeah, well,

I mean if the world doesn't end by then or if the rapture doesn't happen, right there you go well, it's it's obviously all because of israel like I mean

I was just on iron sharpen's iron radio today and it's like people like okay So you think that that you know, because we were talking about the situation in israel.

So you think that's prophecy? I don't know like After after everything's done.

I'll let you know if what's going on in israel I mean, you know someone would challenge me and was like is do you think that it's god's will for israel to be a state?

I said, of course I do Like oh, so you think it's prophecy? I said I never said that Then how do you think it's god's will?

Because israel's a state. Yeah The fact that israel's a state tells me it's god's will because if it wasn't god's will guess what

Israel wouldn't be a state i'm saying this to a guy who's very reformed and Well, andy let's uh, let's bring it back to to mike bickle

Yeah, so so I was in the vineyard movement for about eight years and uh, we followed uh, bethel we followed

IHOP kansas city we would go to Uh, the one thing conferences which are put on by IHOP.

Um, kansas city and mike pickle and so I would follow a lot of the things that they did right the 24 hour prayer room was on my computer

And things like that and I had friends that went to their school um and so when

I when I started actually researching them in the charismania and the things that went on and started discovering how unbiblical they were and really how kind of creepy mike bickle was um

Uh, I I started, you know kind of making my way to the door Um and but you know all centered around what scripture said what

I would discover in scripture mainly centered around charismania And then uh cessationism that's when

I actually moved towards cessationism but In the more research that I did

I discovered, you know Mike bickle has a history going back with the can he was part of the kansas city prophets

And uh part of the kansas city prophets was a man named bob jones And bob jones was actually, uh found out to be using his gift of prophecy and words of knowledge and hearing from the lord to manipulate and um

To manipulate women to get them to do sexual favors for him. Okay Let me just stop for a second and say there's there's new bob joneses.

Yeah. Thank you. It's not bob jones university Yeah, this is this is bob jones from the kansas city prophets who was uh, really just a despicable, um perverted man

What has happened recently with? So with mike bickle, it's a lot of the same things that you saw with bob jones

Women have come forward and accused him of sexual abuse And but the thing about it is it wasn't just uh, these these statements that were brought out and it was a lot of people

That a lot of women that came forward and they said it expanded decades So that that leads me into believe he knew about bob or about bob jones may have had a hand in it.

I don't know um But there's similarities there, right and especially being a part of the same ministry but the interesting thing is is

The initial statement that was put out was put out by the board members of ihop kansas city

Who viewed the women and it says in here. These are women who have been viewed as credible trustworthy and courageous

That's what ihop said. Yes So now with what we view about ihop right we would say they

Probably heretical on a lot of their teachings but kudos to them for actually doing what they did

Well, yeah, that's that's a good thing because a lot of times what you see is that they just you know Circle the wagons, you know, they just it's like oh we can't let our own guy

You know fall so right, you know, take it back to to todd bentley, right when it came out that todd

Bentley was cheating on his wife and uh, bill johnson was one that came out and said we support him.

Yeah. Yeah All right. Anybody else have a thought

I don't know. Um, I I I I you said that um, Uh, I know michael brown came out with a video

And he was talking about this. I don't think he was defending mike bickle Uh, but he was he was responding to uh, the allegations

I think okay Yeah, I have to watch it. I I want to watch it. But uh, yeah the So I saw someone shared online and say that he you know

Before I think it was before it was live if i'm very correctly Because they they're saying watch tonight.

He's and because he's going to be defending it and I was like defending what I didn't know so okay, so yeah, it's it's on my

Long list of things to to watch. Um and uh

Michael says, uh You know, michael brown just did a review A review of durbin's video on israel 100 % agree

I I think I think I saw that and I think durbin was You know, it's it was uh, michael brown was invited on to durbin's program.

I thought with that uh, and I will I I will be For uh, the rap report which was starting up again, uh

In in about a week or so We're uh, but i'm recording next week with michael brown and we're going to talk about the situation in israel so we're not going to talk about our

Theology where we differ. Uh, we are going to talk about something we have in common, which is the love for the land of israel but uh

All right. So let's let me get to sharing this. Uh This video that we're gonna

Huh, I just said oh I I Chris, I just I enjoy giving you a headache you and drew

It's you know, this is when you send it to me when you said you were going to send it to me last week I immediately chris text me and said hey send it to me

Chris on holds no me. No chris. Oh Oh huff you you wanted the headache you deserve it then

I I saw parts of it and then I watched the whole thing and I was just like wow Yeah, okay now for for the record

We we sent this and and decided to do this uh Less you informed us that there is a response to so So this is a gentleman

Ruslan uh his channel his his channel is called, uh, bless god studies

Which isn't even proper english. Um And I thought I like when i'm calling out your english, you know, your english is bad.

I'm just saying Okay So Yeah I speak computer programming languages.

All right, so so he had this this video cessation of war With deliverance ministries and here's why that's his video

Uh, I found out about that because somebody had shared with me Uh the messed up church, which is a really good channel to to be checking out um but david

Was on there from david from cessationist film that we mentioned earlier, he's the the writer

He was on there responding to this I guess I found out about it because you know, my name got brought up when in part of it when it came to uh discussing

Um that you know the claim was made. No one's willing to debate michael brown And so they were said well, yeah someone is um, and so Uh, so that's how it came up so I watched

I went back after watching the messed up church went back to watch the other one and was like Hey drew we gotta like we gotta like let's let's respond to this.

So since the messed up church lest said that there is a

Follow -up video. Let me try let me try to give just a really really quick history. So, uh

I didn't even know that there was this entire youtube ecosystem of uh

New uh charismatic pentecostal um these huge channels

Uh, and we but when we were doing the research for the movie and using clips We used a bunch of of these people because they were just popping up when you search for you know

Speaking in tongues or prophecies or whatever. So we ended up using a lot of these guys in the movie just to to Uh show examples of the arguments we were making um

And then these are the people that are talking about the movie is the there's this whole group called the demon hunters um, isaiah saldazar and alexander pagani and uh

Um, oh, what's that one guy? uh Uh, yeah, so anyway, this is this all these big youtube channels and uh, so they talked about it the most ruslan sort of picked up on it because uh

It was this huge debacle that was happening in the youtube uh charismatic world

And ruslan is sort of in that world. So he made this whole video, but he hadn't watched the movie so he makes this whole video he and Somebody brought up the there was a conference that g3 is putting on with the same name

They charged 300 for it. So that became a huge talking point How dare they charge 300 for this conference, which has nothing to do with the movie.

We're not going to charge money for this Yeah Uh, so so that became a big talking point which ruslan dug into And so really the video was more about the conference in the movie, but he was sort of tying it all together

So that was a lot of the confusion david goes on steven kosar's show david is the writer of cessationist

Uh, so he goes on steven kosar's show to call out ruslan. They review the whole thing

Uh david insists over and over and over again that you're criticizing something you haven't seen Yep, and then after that ruslan gets in a twitter fight with me and david

And then and then ruslan finally makes Then he makes a reply video to steven kosar's messed up church video that david was on and he he relented

He relents on a few of the things he admits that the house that he shows was not in fact on macarthur's house uh

There's there's a few other things that he sort of he says technically I was wrong on these things Um, so it's just a huge back and forth, but this is an entire world that I didn't even know existed

I I thought it was like benny hinn and stuff, right? Like I thought these were the charismatics but in reality, it's this entire new thing and I have a lot of theories about the whole uh new youtube, uh charismatic world, which we can talk about later, but that's my setup for the the clip

Okay, and and so what i'll do is i'm gonna grab I just found it I will grab the response video put that into the show notes of the podcast

So that we have that so you guys can watch that. So i'm saying up front anything that I say

He may have already corrected um And so that would be good but i'm stating that up front that I didn't see the response video because I didn't know about it till Two minutes before we went live.

So Um So, yeah Just have that for the record.

So so here it is. Let's let's Hit play And by the way, I am speeding this up a little bit just at 1 .25

speed. It is about 25 minutes Uh drew was like you really think we're gonna get through that?

No, we won't get through all of it. I'm sure um But i'm gonna jump around a bit Okay There is a battle of theology happening in real time a recent documentary came out called cessationist and it's about the position that the gifts of The spirit in terms of miracles and signs and wonders have ceased after the apostles went to go be with the lord

Jesus, but in this documentary, there's some shots fired I just wish everybody can get along but they can't and in those shots being fired

There were additional shots being fired and something a bit ironic with regards to this entire conversation

Now when I say can't we all just get along? This is what I mean Cessationist there's a wide spectrum of cessationist.

There's some cessationists that legitimately don't believe god moves today And that would be the fringe and and those people would believe that in first corinthians chapter 13 when it talks about that Which is complete is coming those people believe that the complete is actually talking about the scripture being canonized

Okay, that's a pretty fringe view. Most people do that. Yeah, please. Yeah, please stop. So there is

There is a fringe view that says god does not work move at all the holy spirit

Yeah, I don't know anybody who says that I don't know anyone but I know that they're out there. I keep hearing

But how can I I can't even accept that premise there's nobody who says god doesn't move

Okay, if we mean that god doesn't perform any kind of miracles then okay

None, but even that people don't even but even salvation in itself, right? So so any kind of I would disagree with that Any kind of physical miracle like like, you know, god doesn't override the natural order ever

There are some people that would say that but that's that's the most you could possibly say Nobody would say god no longer moves.

That's ridiculous It's like everybody on the internet talking about hyper cessation, right? And it's like who is that who who is a hypersensationist you press them on it?

And then like john mcarthur is like the best you can get And it's I mean i'm just trying to be charitable because I don't want that fringe movement to be left out, you know, yeah

Okay, but but when we talk about it, I mean this cessationism is not a wide

Cessation has been very simply defined as people who believe that the miraculous gifts

Have not continued on past the first century The why well, he just gave it he may say oh it's a fringe group that believes it's the canon of scripture but I would argue that's what the scripture says

It's the only thing that makes in my mind the most sense in the context in a natural reading of first corinthians 13

Okay, well, but well, I I will say that and I know I know your interpretation. Well, and I I love it

Um, I I think it is maybe a minority interpretation. Oh, I agree among cessationists but but cessationism

However, you want to dice the the exact reason and the exact timing It is around the events of the death of the final apostle and the closing of the canon

That's there's no way there's no way around that Those are the events that are that we're saying are bringing about the ceasing of these gifts.

Yeah And because the the argument that I make is the purpose of the gifts Yep, right because you're talking about this in hebrews chapter two, right?

The purpose is to vindicate the writing of scripture that you know the message that was given

And so whether it's the message from the apostles or from the scripture that was written once there don't you

Once you no longer need the vindication You don't need the gifts that are used to do the vindication.

Well, and this is why this is why Right. John. John. John. MacArthur said to justin peters, uh in 2022

Justin asked him what's the biggest the greatest threat to the christian church today? And john's quote

I have it written down. I have it memorized is quote an abysmal lack of biblical discernment

Is is he gave the reason he gave the proper definition for cessationism and what true biblical cessationists believe?

um drives me that's the way he says it but uh, But but he he gives that definition like it's not enough like are they believable when the canon of scripture is closed?

What's like what more do you need? And yeah, and the inability of people believers in the lord jesus christ who who would hold to continuationism or the fringe of charismatics the charismania is

Why can't people take a step back? What what chapter and verse chapter and verse? Well, hang on. There's a lot of them

It's it's it's what the whole Brandon's laughing because he knows i'm right like there's

Theology, right exactly. It's like Just it's it's the scripture as a whole.

It's the story that it tells it's the example that it gives it's the Prescriptive commands that are there combined with the narratives that are there.

It's all of it It's not just okay. Well first corinthians 13 what you know, well, that's your answer

Well, well, hang on. Let's look at these unless again I love the way you guys broke it down in the film these three different three different sections these epics in scripture

Like why were these gifts given? And it's sorry. It's just not enough for something Those epochs too.

Yeah Scripture's being written And one more thing and one more thing and and let me just say for everybody that's that's watching now as we're starting this

If memory serves correct, this is the only time in the 26 27 minutes that he actually even remotely begins to touch the content of of the argument and everything else is so I know you said he gives a good definition, but but the the problem with his definition is that he's he's combining two radically

Incompatible things he's saying god doesn't move and then he attaches that to the the

Uh closing of the canon which is the closing of the canon part is okay yes cessationists believe that but then you're attaching that but that god doesn't move because We're saying that the gifts that you really like and that you think that you're participating in Have ceased so so let me give a couple resources

Real quick drew to your point. Uh The the I would encourage everyone to do go go go on youtube search cessationist conference andrew rapaport

Watch the what the talk that I had done at the kootenai uh, idaho conference on cessationism dealing with the miracles laying out and showing

Definitively that there's only three time periods in history that humans do any miracles

Outside of that you're only you only have outside of that. You only have like seven miracles

That's it in 4 000 years of period, you know, there's also So i'm talking about the the definition of cessationism.

I think kevin hay opened up that conference With the definition of of cessationism, that would be a good one to watch.

So So go go search Watch the whole cessationist conference. That'd be

Uh, you can go to striving for turning .org slash miracles. I put all of my sermon notes there

With the charts that I did Yeah, they are thank you

It took a lot of time Uh, and uh, we have talked about this This topic several times on This show and what

I did in preparation for the debate with michael brown Michael wanted to see what my position was So I I want a re

I got a resource for you guys that we haven't shown here before but If you go and we're going to have this on we're going to link this into our website

But for right now if you go to let's dot church l -e -t -s dot church There is a channel under the channels for apologetics live and there is a search button up here

And you could just type something like gifts And boom, well that that gave you everyone

So if you if you just type in gifts, it limits the search to everywhere where I have talked about gifts

Have some gifts cease can charismatic gifts, uh, and benny hinn be defended, right?

andrew rapport disagrees with Uh charismatic gifts with it, you know So each of the every time and the neat thing is if you go and you look at this

You're gonna you're gonna get a transcription if you want a transcription. You got the video. It's it's all right there

That's that's a resource. That is Something we're going to be incorporating into websites. So you guys will be able to start to search anything that that we've talked about on rap report apologetics live

Okay, so those are some things you could just go do some more so you could do more research man

I'm looking at these charts right now. These are great Really great. Wow. Yeah, it was it was a lot of work created by agent

Shows how many miracles are done in the bible in general. That's crazy Yeah, and and what

I what it really did What I did in that brandon was to walk through and show How you know through each bible the book of the bible

People have this idea like miracles are just all over the place because that's the way people talk today

And it's really a miracle by definition should not be normative Right.

Everyone treats it as if it should be. Well, that's what jimmy says, right? That's the misconception about cessationism.

Anyway, is that somehow we don't believe in miracles, right? But that's not true Yeah, we just don't believe in the sign gifts or the miracles that were used

In the time of the apostles for the authentication of the message. And so that's right. Yeah Yeah, so so, you know when we we look at it, you know

I don't care if it's a fringe view if it's biblical, right? I mean What is what is most commonly you you guys give me the answer

What's the most common view of The verse where two or three are gathered in my name there.

I am in the midst of them. What is that referring to? We can have church that wherever we are.

We can have church as long as there's two or three people and god will hear it And when it's wednesday

Study at prayer meeting and no one's there that god's there. That's not what it's saying Yeah, right.

It doesn't matter if that's the most common That text is dealing with church discipline right so it, you know, it doesn't matter if it's if it's a

Uncommon view or a fringe view if it's a biblical view, that's the question uh

So so let's let's try to I know we're not going to get through this whole thing Uh, and i'm probably going to jump through it a bit um

To get to some of the things he says at the end That which is perfect that which is complete is coming. There's something about jesus coming to jesus

So there are folks all the way on the other on that extreme There are some folks that even go to the extreme of believing that jesus because jesus is the word and the bible is the word

And therefore jesus is the bible Yes, I know it's a minority But those folks do exist and then there are folks who are open to god healing are open to god moving but everything is you know prayer is really about praying for the will of god exclusively and Every spiritual gift or seeming spiritual gift kind of gets categorized as the gift of discernment.

All right He's exposing his bad theology, yeah because What's the thing the gift you never hear about in the charismatic movement the gift of discernment?

Yeah, you never hear that exactly Yeah, well, well actually, you know, uh, you know that that crazy clip where uh, mark driscoll

Talks about visions that he sees and he saw a woman having sex with A tall blonde man who had the perfect body type like all this disgusting detail

And he says that you laid on your back. You took your clothes off like he he's telling her this vision if you remember

Mark, driscoll said that was the gift of discernment So he says some of you have the gift of discernment and you just see things and it's like taking the red pill

And in the matrix and now you can just see everything so According to some of these guys the gift of discernment is actually being able to see pornographic visions

So that's right Wow And and I should I should have said this from the beginning for the record

I I didn't think about it till just before we went live, but I did I did email

Uh ruslan, I think that's how it how his name's pronounced not ruslan ruslan.

Okay I I emailed him just before I realized it was last minute. I doubt he'll come in He probably won't even get it.

But uh If he does watch this and wants to come on we'll you know be happy to have a discussion on this whether whether it be a discussion on what we're saying about his review or you know just the topic of of you know cessationism, but yeah,

I mean I do want to just point out a tactic that you sometimes see people do

Where they mention all of these extreme views

And by doing that one of the things that does and i'm not saying he is doing this but when people often do this

They mention all the extreme views so that their view seems normal. Yeah So it's like look crazy crazy crazy crazy now doesn't what i'm saying seem normal the the and and he's he is

Seemingly putting it out there as if these are extreme views like believing that that the prophecy

And the wisdom are partial but when they're completed That that might refer to the bible

I mean, it's a crazy idea when revelatory gifts are completed. When would that be?

Oh when the revelation is completed he also says that when uh that he says some instead of uh,

Praying or instead of praying for healing the praying is just Praying that god's will would be done as if as if that's a wrong thing to do for God's will to be done.

Yeah yeah, that was later and and and You know, I was glad when Less You know,

I know when when you were first getting involved in the project I I used a phrase that you were like wait

What was that and you wanted to hear it again, but it was in there is revelatory gifts. Oh, yeah

Because and I don't know anyone that uses that phrase other than me, but that's what how I view those they're revelatory gifts, right?

prophecy and tongues well revelatory and attesting Yes, because tongues is actually both.

It's a miraculous gift attesting to the fact that this person is sent from god, but it's also revelation correct

Yeah, but with the wisdom and the prophecy those are those are revelatory gifts

Right and where the healing and the tongues were attesting to the revelation. Yeah.

Yep so Yeah I I I laughed right when

I saw that in there. I was like, hey, I made it in You know, they don't believe in words of knowledge. They don't believe anything prophetic

They don't believe that god can speak in supernatural ways. They don't believe in dreams and visions They don't believe in any of that stuff. Hold on. We believe god speaks

Yeah, correct That's that's the thing When you paint someone to the extreme

Right there you end up being and you end up knowingly or unknowingly being dishonest right and my question to him is

What more does god have to say that he hasn't already said in his word? Like what what is it that I need to be seeking outside of scripture?

Yeah Yeah The whole reason why you know less than I had talked about the fact of and I made this point at the cessationist conference is

The big like why is this a big deal? All right. This is a thing that I think

I believe many Continuationists ask what are asking of the of cessationists?

Why is this a big deal? Why do you make an issue of this? And the reason I make an issue of this it comes down to the sufficiency of scripture

That's right If if scripture is not enough if you need Listen carefully to the word.

I just said need If you need something more than scripture to validate your faith

To make you feel spiritual Then you don't believe in the sufficiency of scripture

Yeah, I would add authority in there too. I would say I would say the sufficiency and the authority of scripture and for me

The reason the reason I bring this up the reason I say this is a primary and not a secondary issue is because if The scripture is truly the honest us breathed out by god

God is breathing this out. It's the spoken word then then to to Not for scripture not to be sufficient and authoritative for you

What that means is that god himself is not enough for you God is not sufficient God is not authoritative in your life because you're searching for something more than what he gave us to rely on This is a this is this is a commandment violation.

You're taking his name in vain You're attributing works to the spirit of god that he wants nothing to do with Um, it's let me if I can jump in here.

Go ahead Yeah, hold on. I just want I want to emphasize something chris said before people who disagree with us jump on him.

Okay? Just because we will no notice what we're saying. We're saying i'm saying when you say there's a need

He's saying when you're you're looking for something more You know You're not looking to the scriptures the scriptures are and that's what we're saying

The scriptures are all that we need for faith and practice Okay, aaron go

Uh two things first of all, I was going to say he interestingly he says that uh, these people he's talking about believe that god can't and that's really important too because No, we believe he can but that he doesn't but then again, we also believe that he will so The the just kind of casually tossing it out there and saying, you know

God can't do this is really completely inappropriate and very misleading But the other thing

I was going to say I was going to piggyback off of what chris said about the authority thing Yes, what he says 100 right about them not recognizing the authority of god the flip side of that coin though Is what

I see all the time as a biblical counselor um If god's not the authority well who is well, it's it's it's nobody other than me

I am the authority because I get to decide that god's not the authority and I get to decide these things. So Yep, the the the continuous position now i'm not saying that everyone who believes that God's still doing miraculous things, uh in this world as defined by you know

The revelatory gifts and the attesting gifts and whatnot I'm not saying that everyone who believes those gifts are continuing are just looking for an excuse to baptize their own will and just do whatever they want, but uh, so many people are so many people are

They've been lied to about how god communicates to us All right, they've been they've been told that it's a feeling or that you'll hear still small voice or which is schizophrenia

You know, they're they're told this and so then when that feeling comes I have counselees saying to me

I believe god wants me to divorce my husband And and and based off of what based off of scripture or you know

Just based off of how they feel, you know, because well, you know, because I had this piece and whatever else so It is the authority thing

But the moment that the authority is not god's the authority is our own and the real deceptive the real dangerous part of this

Is the fact that? These people are pursuing their own will But saying that it came from god because they've been taught that it comes from god they believe it comes from god, but it's not and the real danger in that Aaron is the fact that you

You can't reason with them because they got it from god. They they use the god card a trumpet

And so let me give a resource with this Go to strivingfraternity .org go to the store get a book

God doesn't whisper by pastor jim osmond. Absolutely Fantastic resource deal with this idea that god speaks to you by feelings or voices or dreams

It is the definitive book on hearing the voice to god. Yeah. Yeah, there it is.

Yeah Aaron fantastic point brother So so I jumped ahead in in this a bit because I know he's he's going to end up playing the

The trailer to the cessationist film. This is where he's now speaking about The g3 conference that is going to be held at uh

Grace community church now just for the record for those who didn't see the cessationist film john mcarthur

Was not in the film itself. Was he even interviewed for it? Nope Okay, so he wasn't even interviewed for the film

Okay, the conference that's being discussed Is a g3 conference

Right keep that in mind, okay, this is not something that mcgarthur is doing mcgarthur's church has opened up to Lots of different people to do conferences uh

Joe beeky does puritan conferences there, but it's joe beeky's conference And in all fairness though when

I saw the g3 conference, I actually thought it had something to do with the film originally If you're gonna review it you got to do your homework and he obviously didn't do his homework

It's not that it has nothing to do with the film. It's that uh, it's a g3 conference That's using the title of the film and we are we're gonna be there and it's like the film is is the subject matter um, so it's not that it's completely disconnected.

It's just that A lot of these guys are associate are talking about the conference as if it is the film which is just very unhelpful

Yeah, and that's the confusion. So and that's why I went when we have these things he's going to talk about just understand

Is a g3 conference on the same topic of the film at macarthur's church

MacArthur's church is not doing it Okay It's not the film the that's not in the film obviously because the film's out and the conference hasn't happened

So just just so we have that so it's which means which means andrew which means it's it's not john macarthur

Charging the money. There you go Which which becomes a major issue right there because Yeah, we'll let him play it but keep that what drew just said in mind it's it's not

Macarthur because that's their whole thing look macarthur's always the big name that everyone when julie roy's goes after Macarthur for things that macarthur didn't actually do for for counseling that other elders did

But if she mentions those elders, no one's going to click on her articles where she's going to make her money from the ads

So you got to make it look like macarthur's behind it All right, that's what ends up happening

So evil, okay So yeah They're doing a conference around this right?

I mean, they're really waving this flag high, you know It's I always just find it telling when the entire movement of something is more or less anchored as being against something right, you're basically even the marketing of this is you got the the what is it the todd white video playing in the background like All the bad things it's all the bad things right so we're not like we're not like going towards anything

We're just pointing out all the bad stuff. Okay, and I think in that the the critique because again

John, macarthur's a part of this. Hey, i'll pause for a second pause for a second. Yeah I i'm trying not to pause

He didn't watch this. Yeah, he didn't watch the movie. Yeah, he did correct. So he admits he doesn't watch the movie and and I mean one of the things that you end up seeing with it is

He's criticizing Uh, right he he doesn't and and look everyone all of us do this so let's not be too hard on him

We all do this where we don't we can see what others are doing and we don't see it in ourselves That's what he's doing he's critiquing and being on the negative

And criticizing us for doing that but he's doing the same thing that's why I wouldn't make that argument

Well, and the reason the reason I said stop was not not because of that The reason I said stop is because of that that that argument that you find all the time that it is

You know, oh, can't we just be known by what we're for instead of what we're against, you know

Doctrine divides and it does it absolutely does, you know, I think Right. I think of spurgeon's words right discernment isn't knowing the difference between right and wrong but right and almost right

I think of jc ryle and pharisees and sadducees saying that unity Unity at the expense of truth is unity that is set on fire by the flames of hell you know and We we have to we have to draw those lines, but but this is also another dishonest take because anyone if you've read strange fire or Watched the cessationist film or read the book a biblical case for cessationism that tom pennington did in conjunction with the film

You will very clearly see and hear that. Yes We're pointing out the things that that we are against because they go against the word of god

But then we're pointing people to what the scriptures we're pointing people to what what does the bible say on these topics and so much more?

that that argument it just drives me nuts because also Go ahead if uh chris if if i'm telling you what i'm against Right in terms of in terms of these false movements and false claims if i'm telling you what i'm against I'm, also telling you what i'm for and if i'm telling you what i'm for Then you also know what

I am against, you know And you guys know if you go back listen to andrew rappert's rap report

I've been doing a series going through our doctrinal statement and so much of the doctrinal statement is saying what we're against And and i'm showing how that shows what i'm for like that's the whole purpose of a doctrinal statement

Unless you were going to say something um Well, I I just think that it's very clear

That the beauty of especially in the new testament, you know Paul is putting forward the beauty of the simplicity of the gospel and there's something about a simple message

That's just begging People to come and pervert it And so that's why shepherds actually have to be on the offense.

They have to be fighting off error and so christianity is always going to be a uh

Defense and offense it's going to be a fighting religion um in ideas not physically fighting

Because we are fighting for the sake the the sacred holy pure simple gospel

And so yeah It I don't know what religion you think you belong to if you are really fed up with all the the fighting i'm, sorry

But error is always trying to creep into the church and all if you look at church history it is always a fight in fact, one of the things that that I a point that has been made by one of my seminary professors was all of our theology comes out of heresy

In other words it is because there's heresy that creeps in That we form our theological positions in response to heresy

Every creed every confession every council that's called it is all in response to errors, correct

Yeah, well, and I was actually I was actually just gonna Say that exact same thing. I mean first corinthians 11 tells us that Divisions exist among you know among the corinthians and that there had to be these factions so that I'm, sorry.

I got sidetracked by something that just popped on my screen He says in verse 19 for there must also be factions among you so that those who are approved may become evident among you

And part of the point being made there is that the factions and the divisions were not created by the believers

Just pursuing division They were created in in part by the disingenuous

Unbelievers or by the people who were led astray or the people who belong believe the wrong thing So once that faction once that division was created by these people in this particular situation those who believe that these

Specific gifts continue. They're the ones stepping away from what the scriptures are communicating

Um, well then yes at that point a faction has been created in theory It was created by you by stepping away from that and so therefore it must be answered

Well, I I got something that goes along with uh with les's point about christianity being a fighting religion

Uh, there's someone that I know locally that i'm very close with uh, um a minister so to so to speak uh, and he's very much against uh calling out heresy

Against saying well such and such, you know, he would be against saying andy stanley is a heretic and things like that And so i've asked him i've said okay, you're you you claim to be a minister of the gospel, right?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I do. Okay. So then if you don't do that, how do you fulfill titus 1 -9?

It's a clear command and if you don't do it, then you're not qualified to be to be a minister Yeah So let me just address some comments that we got a facebook user

Oh clicked on the wrong one facebook user says why are we not able to share this? Well, first off facebook user what

I suggest you do is go to apologetics live .com And follow the instructions so we can know who you are so your name shows up but uh, you're probably on a facebook page

That or group that's private and therefore you can't share from there So you'd either have to go to my wall

Or just share apologetics live .com and that's that would be a good thing to share or they got it

They said they figured it out. Okay uh, and i'm going to cover this one before it gets too late because Uh, we may not get to this part, but wayne is saying you guys have an open invitation to come on remnant radio

Um, I have been hearing this For weeks now actually longer than that since since we started talking about this film

Uh, I have said that i'm open to it I've people have told me that they will have me on they've tagged me on their you know, and I said i'm willing

I'm waiting If anyone has their contact information Just send it to me info at striving for eternity .com

Info at striving for eternity .com. I'll be happy to get the info Because everyone keeps telling me that there's an open invitation

Everyone keeps telling them that hey I'll do i'll come on i'll discuss it so They're not contacting me

So if you have their contact information contact me at info at striving for eternity .com

They might be referring they might be referring specifically to me. I've been Invited by remnant radio the the makers of the film are invited.

So they've done five weeks No, i've been I was told that they're doing they're they've opened up to anybody.

Yeah. Yeah well, i'm just i'm just saying, uh, you have an open invitation might be referring to to the to The filmmakers but uh, so to respond to that, um, we are considering um

Going on remnant radio at the at the beginning. They they reached out to me. They reached out to tim, uh the producer

I just said the movie stands on its own You can you know do whatever you want to do you can respond to it

You can play clips from the movie it really does and and that's that's what they've been doing They've done five weeks of responding.

It's very interesting hearing the things they They say, uh week by week, which is which is good

You know, I want to hear what they what they have to say. So it might make more sense towards the end of of Their 10 week review or whatever they're going to be doing

Um to set something up and go on their show just just to respond to that if if they're referring specifically

Yeah, yeah. No, they supposedly did a video where they were challenged anybody And I had several people that contacted me and saying, you know, why why won't

I go on what am I afraid? What am I running from them? Uh, no, I mean and I told them

I said if you have contact with them this show right here apologexlive .com Anyone can come in If you disagree with my views come on in if you if you really

And folks anyone that watches this on a regular basis. You guys know we get people who come in they disagree

We realize they have a lot more disagreement and need more than a few minutes and we will give them an hour or two hours to flesh out their points

Okay uh So, you know if they want to come in fine if they want me to come on there fine.

I'll I don't have no problem right, so Let's take a look. Um Let's continue playing this let me go back to this screen.

There we go Okay Cessationist sometimes not all the time, but the critique is that folks who flow in these situations

I would say friends of mine that I publicly disagree with that. I've had on my channel I've disagreed with i've been on their channels. I disagree the streams have overlapped between the prosperity and and and hold it

Hold it. I I gotta pause this because I gotta Did he drop he dropped I I gotta read the private chat here

His so am bruster puts in the back in the private chat Hey, my dudes, thanks for a great show

I have to duck out and assist my daughter. I think she's trying to speak in tongues Totally distracted from what we're supposed to do guy cracks me up Okay Let's go back to this

Charismatics and Pentecostals, which i'm not a pentecostal, but we're just using that word interchangeably. So play this john mccarthur clip real quick Okay, so i'm going to stop this here because it truthfully

John, mccarthur wasn't in the film. The the clip has nothing to do with the film or the conference

What he's going to do is spend a a big amount of time here focused on john mccarthur well

And here's the the argument that he wants to make Yeah By the way, what you're seeing right here is he is proof that he gets his information from julie royce, which is a bad source

Yeah So he tried to he tries to make the point mccarthur Um has attacked the prosperity gospel talking about how they're obsessed with money and how they're extorting the church.

Uh, basically Buying salvation all you know, all the all the things we know about the evils true evils of the prosperity gospel um, and so he then he

Brings up the fact that this g3 conference is happening and they're charging three hundred dollars per ticket um

Which is for if you've ever been to a conference that I mean It might be a little bit much for me to pay but it's not people that go to conferences

They pay that all the time. It's really not that crazy of a price, but um, so he makes this whole point and and it's because Like 10 people on youtube before him made the exact same point and it was just like a big talking point there

Everybody in the charismatic circles wanted to talk about but he so what he tries to do is say John mccarthur attacks people because they want prosperity or they're pursuing the prosperity gospel

And then he's going to charge 300 for this conference, which john mccarthur isn't doing. Um, And he's worth 15 million dollars or whatever

He has all these houses blah blah blah and then he says the hypocrisy the hypocrisy the hypocrisy So to make this huge point that john mccarthur has money, but then john mccarthur attacks people that That pursue the prosperity gospel or whatever now

That is insane because If you think the reason john mccarthur is attacking

Prosperity preachers is because they because they have money then you're not listening.

Yeah, exactly The prosperity gospel is not Wicked because you make money because money is not wicked in and of itself

The reason the prosperity gospel is wicked is because you are charging money for christ

And that is the most wicked thing anybody could ever do Yeah, and justin peters has made that point numerous times.

Yeah, he said I it doesn't matter if The lord has blessed you financially.

It's how you're obtaining that money, correct? In that they're obtaining it on the backs of of sick and needy people correct with lies based on lies exactly

Using the gospel as a bait Yeah, bring in as a bait bring in money.

Yeah, because because the difference is Saying if you give me money god's gonna bless you.

That's a prequel quote, right? That's not what mccarthur does mccarthur is

Is working hard writing books and and he's he's getting paid for those things. Yeah He says oh and john mccarthur's name is on a bible by the way, okay, that might sound really bad

But you you if you don't see the difference between john mccarthur publishing a bible that has his study notes in it and calling

The john mccarthur study bible if you don't see the difference between that And literally standing up on tv and saying sow your seed and the lord will bless you

If you don't see the difference then i'm, sorry You just you're you don't understand the wickedness of what's happening in the prosperity preaching

You you brought up the what he talked about the conference he's talking about the conference and the price now I think if I got this right, this is where his co -host actually makes our audience.

Yeah. Yeah He pushes I can't believe he left this in yeah our most expensive ticket which came with a meal was a hundred dollars for three days

Or for three hours Theirs is 2 .99 for three days. So and we also know at the end of our event

We didn't even break even I think we ate a couple hundred dollars So is it possible that there's behind the scenes things going on when it comes to logistics that actually do cost a lot of money i'm sure they're they're profiting some because they're they're shrewd business people, but Is it a uh such an insane amount that uh, it's worth to poke at okay

So so one thing and I and I guess I got it cut it too Too late where he he admits that they didn't fly people in for their conference.

So their conference is a hundred dollars for three hours Compared to three hundred dollars for three days

You got hotels you got flights and and they didn't make money. So Okay, this i'm saying in jest in case they're watching.

This is a this is a joke. I'm but They say that g the guys at g3 are shrewd businessmen.

I guess they're not I guess these guys aren't because they lost money Right. They're saying that these guys are shrewd businessmen.

So they'll know how to make money I guess since they lost money, they're not sure just just a joke, but the reality is that They're making the point

Less that you you were just starting to make and and you're right. I'm I was kind of it is interesting. They left this in because I I almost think that this was um

You know, sometimes we can go off on a rant But it it looks like they prepared that rant because he's got all the clips to show

Look how macarthur has this macarthur has that and then his co -host is kind of Tapering it down a bit.

Yeah, his his his, uh, I think it's his producer He's pushing back on him and basically saying like oh, come on, you know, they're just charging money for a conference we did the same thing and but which is

Interesting, but but then it goes back to ruslan and ruslan says no. No, no, no. I'm not i'm not worried about money

I'm worried about the hypocrisy Which is actually even worse because you think that it's hypocritical for macarthur to talk about making money when

Talking about prosperity preachers when you want to talk about macarthur making money for writing books and you know

Selling his commentary and things like that Again, the point is if ruslan does not understand the difference between a christian making money

Doing good solid biblical ministry never promising something in return for sowing your seed

Versus benny hinn if you don't understand the difference between those two kinds of people Then you're you're just blind to what's actually happening.

Yeah, and and I mean we've already said it but the fact that macarthur Wasn't even interviewed for the film.

He's not running the conference it's It's just it's the big name to get the attention

What's happening is what it does and i'm not saying this is what ruslan is trying to do But this is why many others

I know do You mentioned macarthur because that's the lightning rod and all the macarthur haters will like you

For giving them a reason to hate macarthur more. Okay. This is just the way people do things and so and we don't we don't have a whole lot of Reformed celebrities to choose from so macarthur kind of has to be the lightning rod.

How many famous there's like sproll There's macarthur. How many other famous in in the league of the guys that charismatics have on tv?

We don't have anybody right now. There's I I do want to touch on that john macarthur clip.

He played Uh for the reason of this is what I have seen when

I was in the charismatic movement from personal conversations Um because macarthur in that clip talks about just give me christ

Give me christ in the good give me christ in the bad I just want christ if I have christ that is all

I need right? It is essentially what that clip is And so I asked um, he was a young man at the time

He was just getting into worship music and playing and learning guitar and things like that But he was big in the charismatic movement.

He was big into all of that stuff and uh I asked him

I said Okay if you could have If you could have christ without the spiritual gifts would you still want christ

And he said no See and that that's the consistency of scripture issue right there.

That's that is not I don't think that's as uncommon as some people might think because I have asked a similar type of question to many people that I have discussed this topic with and They and this is why at the at the cessationist conference.

I started off Now mind you I knew someone in the audience who I disagreed with he was very much believing that he speaks in tongues and has these gifts and they continue and And I knew he was in the audience.

This is a personal friend of mine and I said It is very difficult

People because they cannot separate that Feeling of spirituality with this experience that they have and so when you discuss these issues

And I gave a warning there to for for those For the cessationist to realize this is hard For the continuationist to discuss this especially in disgust without emotion

Because they a lot of them have a very difficult time separating those two

Okay, and they they they tend to get it tends to become an emotional argument than a biblical argument

Okay, i'm reminded of man just like thinking about that it's it's That's a fantastic question

Just I think a good place for us to pause and ask each of us right like regardless of the circumstances you and I Anybody who's listening to my voice anybody who's watching right now any of these brothers on the screen that I love dearly you know

A good question for all of us is We have christ. Is he enough?

Is he enough like i'm i'm reminded of the words one of my favorite modern hymns Is called is my worth is not in what

I own And the chorus of that is I rejoice in my redeemer greatest treasure Wellspring of my soul and I will trust in him.

No other my soul is satisfied Satisfied in him Alone, i'm a little disappointed.

You didn't sing it Bro, don't don't don't i'll get my guitar. Well, um Well, uh, go ahead

It'll take a minute. It's that here and I gotta take these out but no, I mean that that's a fantastic question for all of us to ask and that's that's that right there drew is

And is is why I say this is not a secondary issue This is a primary issue

Well the the but when we say this and this is what I keep coming back to right? It's the sufficiency of scripture.

Yep And that's what makes it important I I would argue i'm on the fence whether this is secondary or or You know or primary.

Yeah, I I think it really is for in most sense. I would say this is a secondary issue

I mean, it's clearly something that I don't break fellowship over Okay, because I have many friends who who believe in in the continuation of gifts.

Um, but the issue though is I When i'm looking at it, it's okay

What is your view of scripture? Or are you believing that's sufficient? Let me let me give it.

Let me give an example. Uh Many of you here, you know matt slick good friend of mine one of my best friends.

Um, He and I disagree on this we've debated it on this show several times

Um, we've we've debated it actually on his radio show Several times we've debated it at churches several times.

We had a discussion about cessation this movie before it came out For the conference he thought the conference was divisive um, and you know, and so the thing is now

I I'll admit I I don't like having the discussions with matt anymore because You you as you saw on the show.

He he takes it too personal Okay, and starts to be like, oh are you calling me that saying that i'm not godly?

No, i'm not saying that like there's ways to explain this but but cpl take it personal however Do I believe matt believes in the sufficiency of scripture?

Yes Right. He's someone who does hold a very high view of scripture

He's not looking for an experience But he he believes that this experience he had

Is true and from god And he he doesn't look at any other possible

So he he uses that and when he comes to scripture, it must be true because his experience

But he's not sitting there and looking for the next experience So there is a difference like with a matt slick

Then with people that are looking for the next experience or you could even say a guy like martin lloyd jones

Like he was a continuationist and he did some really wonky things Especially in terms of like the seal of the holy spirit in ephesians chapter one and uh he nobody

Preached and proclaimed like he did nobody exposited like he did But at the same time you can see the fruit that plays out from that because now his church is

Nothing like it used to be well that well, I think that has more to do with uh, Mr. Facebook user wants to know if that's is that scalp?

Is It'd be really nice if mr. Facebook user would you know, he was just happy and put his name in there

Yeah Brandon to your point. I think that has more to do with rt kindle who came in after uh after lloyd jones

Yeah, but he could have came in if there wasn't a crap Right, right, right, right But and so so rt kindle was was

I think he was the associate pastor to to lloyd jones But rt kindle was a he wasn't just uh, maybe kind of borderline a continuationist with a seat belt

He was a full -blown charismatic Yeah But see a lot of what we're seeing is like when we talked earlier about hearing the voice of god

A lot of these people are not looking to scripture as their final authority, but themselves

Um Yeah, I have a um as far as this first versus second first, um

First tier second tier first tier second tier issue. Um I'm having trouble sort of distinguishing this myself because now now it's sort of like the promoting of the film and stuff and uh,

Facebook group and or facebook page and i'm having all these interactions with Charismatics that are responding to the movie and they're basically saying

This isn't worth the fight you're being divisive for one. Um, you're not calling you're saying we're not saved so And and I guess if we're saying first tier means gospel central issue then um

Then yeah, we're not saying we're kicking you out of the kingdom necessarily because because it doesn't it's it's yeah, you can believe the the justification by faith alone and you can also hold to these things, but the issue is

And this is something I get in trouble for for saying but I still stand by uh greenville uh interviewed me at g3 and the

The interview went up and remnant radio played it and then ruslan even played it on his show.

It's me saying Because of the practices that these people are participating in they're actually practicing a different religion

And when I said that that made them very upset and I can understand why because that word practicing a different religion that term uh can

Certainly mean, you know, like islam is to practice a different religion, you know, so that word practice but when i'm what

I meant was You're practicing In practice you are

Doing things that are completely foreign to scripture You and you are practicing things that and I called it gnostic and I also called it magic

Which they didn't like any of those words But the reason i'm saying

The reason i'm saying that is because The actual outworking of the things that people are doing today the modern charismatic

Versions of prophecy tongues and Uh the gift of healing the the you know, the ability to go around and actually heal people

Look, nothing like the biblical gifts. That's right. And so where did they come from?

That's the question tongues is easiest one to look at Where did you get this idea that talking in gibberish?

is the biblical gift of tongues And and and they their whole argument is if you can't prove it from scripture that these gifts have ceased then

Then then that's the end of the argument somehow. They think that's the end of the argument So if they don't, you know, if they don't buy your interpretation andrew uh that the the full the the um

The complete the complete was perfect closing of the canon the perfect Uh, if they don't buy that then it's like oh then there's no verse and so Tongues is now gibberish that does not follow.

Nope But that's what we actually saw in history as well, right? We we see that here, you know, agnes, uh, uh alzman, she she ends up She what does she believe she believes she is speaking chinese and I you know, and you guys have it in the film the the the

So so only for those that don't know so justin peters got that what she wrote Saying it's chinese and he calls me up and says

I need to get I need to be on a video call with you and I need to send you something for your wife to To to look at for folks who don't know.

My wife is asian. Okay? She reads chinese and he he says he just says to her he says this is this is someone writing chinese

What do you think of it? And my bride just looks at it and says justin that's chicken scratch

And what he did was right This is not chinese in chinese

And when he puts that up there, you can clearly see the difference between the two. Yeah, and so What happens she goes there to china expecting to evangelize?

She has this experience And this is this is what I when I talk of the sufficiency of scripture

She has an experience and instead of questioning her experience She'll question scripture so she has this experience she's speaking in chinese she goes over to china

She can't speak to anybody. She can't write that anyone understands She fails in speaking chinese because she's not speaking chinese.

She comes back And instead of saying I must have been wrong she says

Scripture must be wrong. Now. She's not going to say it outwardly what she's saying is It must be that i'm speaking in angelic language and there's only one passage in all the bible that Where they can get an argument teaching angelic language first corinthians chapter 13 verse 1

Where he's comparing love the the prime The primary point being love and he's saying if I could speak all of the language he's using

Being the key word there, huh? Would be worse Yeah, if I could speak of the tongues of all men even of angels

He's exaggerating. How do I know that because I read verse 2 if I have all knowledge

And understand all mysteries if you had all knowledge you would be god Okay Paul clearly is not claiming he has the ability to be omniscient and be god

So very clearly what he's doing in verse 2 And therefore we can see in verse 1.

He is using the technique of exaggeration to the extreme to say if I could do

Far beyond what's humanly possible? But I don't have love i'm nothing So basically he's saying love is everything

Right love is far more important than than fighting over the guess. Well, he's actually he's encouraging them not to look to these

Beasley particular gifts, which is Yeah, he's rejecting them for trusting in and pursuing these gifts in an unhealthy way over against their pursuit correct and and the thing the thing is is that look

Agnes osmond It was only took her a few years From saying she speaks chinese to returning home and saying she speaks an angelic language and and What she should have done

Is say obviously I didn't have the gift of chinese And I was wrong but instead

Because her experience is what's primary She continues so but so this is kind of the point that I was just trying to make is the first verse is secondary um

Is is okay. It's not a gospel issue. That's that's true but what you're doing is fake and that's why

Matt slick takes it. So personally because it's abs it is absolutely personal you're saying the things you are doing are fake

Objectively fake and that that strikes at a person That's that's a really deep cut to somebody who thinks that like they're doing they're really participating in this stuff

We're saying no. Sorry your prophecies. They're fake your tongues They're fake if you think that you can lay out of hands and heal people and I know not all charismatics actually

Hold to that. That's sort of a a more that really is more of a fringe charismatic Belief they they basically agree with us that you pray for somebody to be healed and they are healed or whatever but we're saying that these practices are fake well

Yeah So I was in in terms of who's who's the fringe and is this a first year second tier?

um When we look at the popular those who are the most popular the mainstream uh

Who who practice these? And what make what would make a group heretical right?

It's their teaching about christ And so we you see it and I think you pointed this out in in the in the movie, right?

Uh, the montanus movement you also had calvin and the libertines you had um

Spurgeon and the quakers right you have all these movements that claim to speak that claimed to speak in tongues

But they were all heretical movements because they taught falsely about christ and when we look at the mainstream now

They're they're the bill johnson's the mike bickles the the joel ostin's, right?

uh They speak falsely about christ, but now the fringe

I would say the fringe is actually those who would be like a da carson Those people who we would look to as as scholars

And we would say wow, he's done some great work in this area. We know he holds the scripture He's written a great book on exegesis.

Even if I disagree with his application through his view of the gifts I I would say the guys like him are actually the fringe

Yeah, can I give you just a little sample of the danger that I see coming? Yes in this movement

So we've so yes like the the televangelist stuff right the prosperity gospel

We've all seen it and when I got into this project, that's what I thought this this all was And now this is what i'm realizing is this this youtube

Movement, so a few things about it. Uh, a movie just came out the domino revival

And it's it's these uh, the demon slayers go on the front Yeah, yeah mark mark driscoll's a part of these guys and if you if you guys have ever listened to mark driscoll

The guy can preach the gospel. Yep. Now that sounds very good, but it's actually very troubling because All of these televangelist guys, it's very easy to pick apart their doctrine and show how they're misrepresenting christ.

But now you have uh mike, uh, uh

I forgot his name the main guy and no, no, no the main guy in the the domino revival.

Uh, And and so so but and even like al isaiah saldivar right like this this really big personality right now

These guys know the gospel They can actually preach it's a very simple gospel, you know, it's nothing you're going to hear in an in a you know

Expository church or anything like that, but so they know the gospel for one for two one of the very interesting things that i'm realizing is so They call this thing a revival

That that all these people are getting caught up in in the charismatic movement and it's growing so much

But what is that? Well, if you make flashy youtube videos that you're loud and you're energetic you are getting caught into a youtube algorithm that's going to keep pumping this stuff into Christians who are looking for doctrine and stuff.

So what they think is a revival is really just The youtube algorithm so i'm calling that the the algorithm revival um

Which is that's that's all it actually is but but but the other thing this is another really scary thing that i'm just now realizing

If you're a televangelist, what do you have to do? You got to say so your seed because you need these people all these butts and seats at home to send you money

Write a check put it in an envelope and actually send it to you That's what you need to happen If you want to get rich if you want to but but these guys don't need to do this

Isaiah saldivar does never ask for money They do these conferences for free and they they say bring your objects

We'll cast the demons out of your objects and all this stuff Yeah, they might ask for a love gift at the end of the conference or whatever, but where are they making money?

youtube They're making money from these social media platforms. So they don't they don't have to ask you for money anymore

So so they they think they're morally superior. They think that they're the next generation

They don't have to do this anymore. So they're making money. They're actually preaching a very basic gospel

And they think that they're involved in this massive revival So the deception is huge and it's going to be a totally different kind of animal going forward

Well, that brings up a good point too, man It's just like you know with driscoll or with with others It's like the guys that get the formula of the gospel, right?

Like drew and I've talked about well, at least they get the gospel, right? Well, it's like they get it Seemingly say again brandon they get a pass seemingly.

Well, yeah, but but you know like Here's here's the deadly part about that right one drop of poison in a in a in a 32 ounce bottle of water can kill you

Right and and that's what they do is is there's poison that's wrapped in this sweet succulent

Cake that is the gospel um, and that's that that's something else with these guys well, well chris, you know, like i've said with those people who say well at least

They they get the gospel, right? Yeah, but if they got if you're pre if you know the formula of the gospel, but it has not affected you

Correct, and you don't get it, right? Yeah. Well, listen We gotta try to land this plane. So speaking speaking of of making money.

I mean, let's go to our sponsors my pillow I knew we were eventually going to get to that part of the the film.

So I figured it'd be but yeah How long has my pillow been sponsoring you? Uh a couple years now, all right, sweet continue

Yeah, so that means you guys must be continuing to buy products from them because I need a new pillow

Or they just forgot Yeah, so so we they have been sponsoring us for for a long time.

Actually, uh, yeah, I guess I guess um Since covid I think is when they they started or shortly before I I forget

Um, but yeah, they uh, but but I I love their products I I will say that their mattress top

I'll say this I have a guest coming on On my rap report podcast when I got done talking about my pillow.

He he decided he was going to explain the mattress topper He he basically made the decision.

Do I buy a new bed? Or just pay a couple hundred dollars for a new mattress topper and keep the same bed and he was like I'll buy the mattress topper.

He got the three inch mattress topper, which is what I have on my bed And it's wonderful.

Yeah, it might be costly, but it's like getting a whole new bed and a lot cheaper. So Uh, yeah, just if you go to mypillow .com

use promo code sfe stands for striving fraternity That way they know that we sent you and that is how they support us to continue to do

What we do at striving fraternity So I just I knew that was going to come I think at this point

I think I got this to the right spot where they're going to talk about the fact Uh that they have their their guys that no one's willing to challenge

Uh, so let's let's see if I got this to the right spot If not, i'll have to move it say someone else is a scammer or is doing it for the wrong reasons

Uh when you believe what they what they teach is heretical, correct?

Yeah, I don't think that's the right spot Let me just move it forward So maybe it was here

I should have marked it openly challenging. Here we go. McArthur for a decade on this. Hold on. Let me back this up the brothers from remnant radio has

I'm gonna back this up because this is where You know, there was some discussion then All right.

Here we go. A lot amount of people are getting the right message, correct? So in their head, they don't they're not able to detach themselves from their own paradigm

And put it through the demon slayer's perspective because the demon slayer's perspective would be the same thing if we're making any money

It's because there's a large amount of people being impacted. It's a sheer volume Yeah, a large amount of people being impacted with the right message And so to think that they're both doing it for wrong reasons or both of them making revenue is bad

Like they're not charging people five thousand dollars a ticket like 2 .99 still relatively affordable. Yes, you know

Yes, so here's the punch line in all of it though And this and by the way deeper issue. I do think that what happened here is his co -host or producer reasoned with him

And he backed away and this is like, okay, I still want to go after it. So let me just do a different tact

I I just I feel like that's what happened. I I can't I don't know his heart So i'm not saying that is what happened.

Just that's what it seems to me like. Oh this argument didn't work Let me just try a different one. Wait, you mean the spirit didn't give you a word of knowledge to tell you that?

Yeah, no, no, I didn't I didn't read it in the bible Just check it. Yeah I I personally

I think isn't just sad. It isn't just Discouraging it isn't just divisive.

It isn't just passive aggressive beta beta behavior I don't know how else to describe it the fact that all these guys from the justin peters to the john macarthur's to Whoever else is involved in this all of these guys have historically ran from debating anyone from the continuation aside

That's true Not true Let's let him keep going

Has been openly challenging John macarthur for a decade on this since they did the first strange fire conference

The brothers from remnant radio has publicly offered to debate anyone on this topic So the fact that you are going to put a documentary out you are going to Do a conference while questioning people's salvation who have a disagreement on secondary doctrines

Okay, so so first I just want to land on the last part because I want to get it You may Yeah, I don't know anybody

That's involved in the cessationist film or the conference that is doubting people's salvation solely upon the continuation of gifts

I don't and this was the argument I made with matt slick when matt When we when this film was when the conference was coming out matt said this was such a divisive issue

And I said to him I said matt you have an entire website devoted to calvinism

People divide over calvinism saying that others are not saved We're that's not happening in by with the cessationist.

We're not saying you're not saved Calvin You know people will say with calvinists that they're not saved that's far more divisive and he said you're right

Right, so he dropped that argument no one's saying that I don't know where that's coming from, but Are there people you know, michael brown's willing to debate it, you know on on this remnant radio will they'll debate anyone

Well ruslan I'm right here I'll take the debate No problem.

You're saying no one is willing That's clearly not true. You know how I know it

Hi I'm here And there's plenty of others who are willing to do it too.

Well, this is I mean, this is what they did This is what david did in responding to this is he literally just you do a quick google search

Uh cessationism debates with michael brown who's specifically the person that he's saying nobody will debate with there's many debates

Yeah, what's that he mentioned sam storms who also debated And and sam storms changed his view.

I mean I you know Someone asked me whether I would debate sam storms on this issue and I said yes

My plan was to use sam storm's own words in his first book on this subject because Sam would change his view on this, right?

So he wrote a book on cessationism Yeah, wow. Yeah, and I I went and found it in a used bookstore so I make sure

I could get it. So yeah so so the thing is is that um What we see is that when you say no one's willing here's what this really means

No one with a big enough platform That will benefit us there it is. Yeah.

So here's the thing remnant radio. You want to prove me wrong? debate me

If you're not willing to debate me because my platform is not big enough

Then i'm, sorry ruslan The reality then is that they're looking to make numbers

They're just looking for platform. I'm looking to do ministry. I don't care how big your platform is

I've never followed these guys. I don't know who they are I've heard remnant radio mentioned. I you know until we started this

I saw in the beginning people were saying that Ruslan's got a big platform. I didn't even look at it

I'm not interested in that but if you won't debate me because my platform is not

As big as yours are big enough. You just want the big name. John mcarthur well

You're not Challenge is there. Let's see. The thing is too. It's like I think in lloyd jones.

Well, hold on All I was gonna say is I don't really understand uh

This debate thing like you have to have two people arguing in order for this to be hashed out.

It could be a discussion Literally a documentary that just came out. That's phenomenal that lays a great foundation for the understanding of cessationism

John mcarthur has written books. There's the strange fire conference. They're about to do this another conference It's like it's not a mystery as to what we believe and we have exactly we have literally

Combed through the scriptures and and written books and put movies out and done all of these things but it's just a way to Shift kind of the gaze of of everybody.

Look, they're not willing to talk to us. Right, right There's a tome of work, you know, yeah, and and you know, one of the things i'm gonna i'm gonna give less credit

We talked about this When it was still a kickstarter project um is

I I remember talking with with you less than saying like I just hope that you will do this that is a positive definition and defense of cessationism and not an attack on continuationism

And I I mean there are some areas where you have to do that, right? You have to explain what you're what you're addressing

But for the most part, I think the film was a defense Of our position not an attack on the others.

It's not you guys are wrong. So we're right And and that was really good that you did that.

Well, thank you. Uh, I I do think that the best the For me the biggest evidence that the gifts do not continue today

Is the fact that the gifts don't continue today like that's That's so that that's why those three sections of the movie dealing with prophecy dealing with tongues and dealing with healing

That's why to me those are the most powerful, you know, they want to say what's the biblical argument?

And I would say that the biblical argument for cessationism is i'm a presbyterian

So to use presbyterian terms, it's an argument from good and necessary consequence from the scriptures

It's not that you can point to one specific verse unless you have andrew's interpretation uh then then you can but um, but but the the the point is and this this is what this is what i've

Especially seeing all the pushback if you show me somebody who uh for the sake of the gospel is able to Miraculously speak a foreign language that they did not priorly prior.

No, and they're able to do that as a gift consistently that then Then I have to re -examine my position and I have to say my goodness

It appears that this gift does continue It see it seems that it was very silent for many many years, but the gift is still continuing and if If if that's true, that would make me fear that something

Uh big is coming in the very near future if all of a sudden the gifts are happening again

I mean, that's very strange. But but the bottom line is if I see The biblical gifts actually occurring today

Then then I have no choice but to say that it's true, but you can't produce that okay because they're clearly not happening

No, hold on hold on one sec, let me just let me just emphasize this Okay, and i'm gonna take it a different way

So because I want I want people who disagree with us on this issue to see the point that you made so we could look at people who say that They're a biological male

But they redefine gender so that they could say that they're a female they identify as a female even though they're biological male

And what do they have to do? They're redefining terms now. We all all of us can agree right that when they do that They're they're losing the argument because what they had to do to make their argument is redefine the terms

Those of you who are regular watchers of apologetics live. We just had that a few weeks ago We had someone come in and try to defend gay christianity and and his buddies are all upset because He had eight pages of notes and couldn't get to it

And the reason he couldn't get to it is all we kept doing was asking to define the terms And he they couldn't he could not continue with his argument holding to biblical terminology

He had to redefine the terms to make his worldview fit So we see that Why am

I saying that i'm saying that for this reason i'm saying that because what we have is the simple fact

That when you say prophecy you say tongues you say healing

And you're saying it's continuing from the first century, but you give it a different definition.

In other words the prophecy in the biblical times 100 accurate or you're stoned.

It's from god. It's got to be accurate But today you can be 85 accurate and it's okay share the slide that i'm trying to put in Yep, i'm going to it's it's for your argument.

Yep Take a second I made this

I made this meme so For those listening on the podcast.

It's it's one side with a woman Uh from like in the 50s says biblical tongues and and then a

Guy that's dressed as a woman today saying charismatic gifts Well, that's the the bud light guy.

Uh, oh, is that oh, that's who it is. Okay. Yeah, sorry Yeah, the yeah the transgender guy.

So so basically the argument is exactly what you're saying. I'm saying dylan mulvaney is charismatic tongues pretending to be the biblical version

You're not actually good. You're you're identifying as the biblical version, but you're not dude.

I want I need that meme What I was saying was that there are many people at my church the church that I pastor who came from charismatic backgrounds and every single one of them without exception will tell you that they lied and they

They wouldn't maliciously Trying to fit in not one of them felt like okay, but we don't even need to go to your church

Who here? Who here in this room? Used to believe that they were speaking in tongues raise your hand

I was I was pressured to when I got baptized. So so I was pressured to but I never tried or did it

I was really pressured I was in a vineyard church that that where people believed they could speak in tongues

I never did it because I never thought I had that gift Looks like you do have to go to my church Notice the word that all all four of us are talking about pressure right

There is I mean, I remember I remember being the one putting pressure on on a guy who who's now

I did feel pressure in in Because they would do these times of ministry Where it was if you had a word from the lord for for anyone in the congregation come down and speak

And I would see people time and time again going down giving these words of knowledge and things like that and my prayer at home alone was always

What's wrong with me that I can't do that. Yep. Yes, you know, am I not studying enough?

Am I not close enough to the lord? Why can't I be someone who has a word for someone else?

What I ended up doing was I remember as a child my sister and I used to and it's probably spanish that we were hearing

But we would we would be In the grocery store of my mom and we hear people speaking another language and my sister and I used to just gibberish

To pretend like we were speaking a different language And there was all so I I just did what

I did when I was, you know Five six years old with my sister. Yes, and everyone

That it was like that's it that's it, you know, and it was like, okay, you know it it so the reality is that there is a lot of pressure to do this and then it gets tied to your your

That experience gets tied to your your spiritual life and it's like I can't separate these two

And that's that's where it becomes a concern. So look You know One of the things that people the continuationist will say is that we're saying, you know, unless you said it was fake

They're gonna say. Oh, so you're saying it's demonic well Look the reality some are now

I wouldn't say for a believer That it's demonic Okay But I do think that we can be deceived

I do think that there's you have people who may be demonic but Whether they're monic or not what you see is a lot of pressure to speak in tongues and the reason that one is is because I really believe that's one that Anybody can speak a gibberish and it's like that's the proof and yet first corinthians chapter 12

Makes it explicitly clear That you should not be seeking the entire church one gift

Yeah Okay It's explicitly clear that god gave us different giftings and if the charismatics can actually

If we can get back to a place where we can all agree because the charismatics will say there's there's three different kinds

Or two different kinds of tongues. There's the actual languages uh Foreign languages that you're miraculously able to speak and then there is this ecstatic speech

Yeah, glossolalia, which is either an angelic language or you speak mysteries. However, you want to define that well, isn't it weird?

that you yourself are admitting there's two different kinds but Everybody can only do one of them and the one that you can do is the one that everybody could do

Because it's complete it could just be completely done in the flesh Why can't anybody do the miraculous one?

Why can't you do the miraculous one? The only one we see in scripture Is the other one right?

So this is the whole thing with like my point is if you're going to say That the the miraculous gifts of the bible continue to today

Then why are they being redefined? Why are they? different than the original

And I would argue why are we left with unimpressive versions? Why is that?

Yeah Well, let this will draw back to to less's uh spirit and truth

Uh movie as well Talking about talking about ananias and sapphira. Yes, right where god put to death ananias and sapphira

Okay, so if if god is the same yesterday today and forever and he still operates in the same way, correct?

Then every charismatic should be a regulative principle of worship person

Otherwise god would put them to death But since they don't believe that he does then they're functionally a cessationist at least in that area

Yeah, well, let me we're gonna because we've gone a little over Uh, i'm gonna i'll end with one thing.

First off. I just want to thank We we all I think here. Thank you less for all of your labor

In this film. Yes. Yeah It was an excellent film so go go it's available on amazon cessationist

You know, I think less you're making millions off. This is that oh, yes. Oh, so many. Oh, sorry.

You're not making anything. I'm, sorry Has to have a kickstarter yeah check out spirit and truth the charismatics the charismatics talk about it a lot

Uh, what I need is my side of the aisle to talk about it a little bit more. That'd be fantastic The charismatics are doing all the publicity here

Yeah, but but so go go check out cessationist. Uh, yeah, I mean as as uh, chris said

You know spirit and truth now, you know for for the record. I I helped fund that I helped support that You you you and I disagree on on on our views you were even surprised that yeah

And and and I told you I said look i've seen what you did with calvinism. I see how you handle things

I may not agree with your view But I knew you were going to handle it accurately

Now my whole view is look. I I i'll tell you inside. This is the real truth I think that I I just wanted you to put it out there that we should have the regulative principle

Because if you would take that now and apply it to your hermeneutic you'd be dispensational see that's what a dispensationalist is

It's someone who has the regulative principle to the application of interpretation of scripture.

I'm just saying Oy vey Oh, no foul language on my show.

Come on All right, you see what I gotta deal with every week Well, I appreciate it

I appreciate it thank you so much Yeah, so uh cessationist movie .com you can find it. Uh, if you go to that website

You'll find all the ways that it's streaming, you know Okay, complete fail complete. I just realized this just now

I I I had my my water. I should have been drinking it out of my cessationist mug complete fail

Oh I'm drinking it out of my strange fire can which is actually fresca

Yeah, let me let me just real quick see if there was a oh, okay So i'm trying to look at what things we start

So by the way, I must have been missing something in the chat if anyone who doesn't watch this live The chat has their own world going on.

Sometimes. I don't know what I missed but uh, mr. Tracy is is No, there's like a whole thing here.

I didn't even see. Oh, yeah, he said somewhere I caught this he says I disagree The fresh wasabi is an argument for great sushi balls in your court

I don't know. I missed something because then later he goes I'm gonna tell people I destroyed andrew in the wasabi debate

Well, there is no debate if you're gonna have sushi fresh wasabi is the way to go

All right. I'm just saying I I had my sushi today. It was It was with mediocre wasabi.

Um, I I can't get my wife to go have sushi I can't okay Look drew get your pastor to invite me to come to your church so I can come down there

Your wife can cook so we can test out that cooking but then you and I can go get some good Okay, good sushi and eat some wild stuff

We uh, we went out to get sushi before the last cruiserform conference and he was he was eating stuff

You see on like the national geographic, you know It was wild. Yeah, you guys can have that Yeah Well, that's what we're gonna have in heaven.

That's my my theory Yeah, like Best way to eat sushi don't

My man Yeah, yeah, it's in there, okay

All right, which comment the last one? Uh, okay. Yeah when it comes to michael brown's been one

I'll put the comment up let you guys address it. Okay. He said michael brown ran like my son when he sees a puppy from ag3 american gospel 3

Sit down boss Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's uh, you know, that's

Because i've lost a lot of respect for michael brown over the years because he's done some fantastic work in dealing with the homosexual community

He's got fantastic resources um in christian's response, uh to to judaism

But when it comes to this topic He has had ample opportunities to actually sit down and have honest discussions like he did for 10 plus hours

And then said I don't want it on there and they pulled it out He had a certain angel.

You'll probably remember but but jim osmond Yeah, I will uh, so a couple years jim osmond, uh first Called into the line of fire

And challenged michael brown and some of the things that he was saying and It was almost like michael brown could not kick him off of the radio fast enough

He didn't want to handle with what jim osmond was saying but for for the ag3

Uh, there were some interviews that were specifically set up for michael brown

Um brandon brandon kimber. One of his goals was to get michael brown to sit down and have

Conversations to hear his side to hear his responses And I mean and brandon kimber from what

I understand was jumping through hoops for michael brown Saying, you know, we'll give you this stuff beforehand.

You can vet it. You can you can approve it, you know Uh anything you want, you know, just come on so we can have these these discussions and honest discussion

And they recorded 10 plus hours of interviews Uh, I forgot who the first one was with but the second one was with jim osmond and justin peters

And it was it was michael brown and sam storms. That was the round table sam storms.

Michael brown Justin peters jim osmond. Can you imagine? Can you imagine how awesome this thing would have been to get on film?

Yeah, well they didn't get it on film, but well, they recorded it. Yeah, but but Allow it to be in the movie Yeah, the thing is is that I guess brandon even allowed from and I I didn't i'm not

Intimately involved with it. I haven't talked to brandon, but I think brandon gave michael brown a thing of saying he would show him how it was going to be used or or or something and and I guess he still like because people don't have the

I remember when they there was a film that ben stein did and he had richard dawkins in there and richard dawkins

You know when you you sign off that you they can use the the footage and I guess you know, and so you you know

You know ben stein's like sorry you signed off i'm using it And you signed a release and and yeah brandon kimber was giving

Him though. He was giving him more Yeah, he's saying like I I guess he was saying hey you have the right

To like I won't air it If you if you're not happy with it, which is you know

I I that seems to me to be going above and beyond on brandon's part Well, i'm sure it was the only way he could get michael brown to agree to do it

Yeah, and I mean that's a pain to do as a producer because you got all this footage You got to put all the whole thing together and then now you gotta rip it out.

We stayed in airbnb with brandon kimber uh at g3 and the whole time we just talked about michael brown because this guy has

Re Brandon's been working on this on ag3 for years years and he's he's had so he's like so close to being done

And then michael brown just decided nope I I want out completely and so much of it was built around these interviews that he made

So he just like destroyed this entire project And so brandon's having to sort of flounder to figure it out and the stuff that he's released is fantastic.

Yeah Yeah, yeah, if you have the the ag tv, they did a premiere

The first two episodes and they were really good Grave -soaking.

Oh, you want to be disgusted talk about oh, man So so we we're talking about the tongues and the prophecy and the healing you want to get gross talk about grave -soaking talk about uh, uh

Casting out demons like these these demon hunters are this this stuff gets really really gross really.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's you know This has been I I hope it's been

Uh somewhat helpful for folks, I mean, you know, we we didn't get to and I knew that we weren't going to be able to get to the whole film that whole 28 minute, uh video,

I think I think we covered all the main points, but The main stuff I think we covered and and I didn't you know being that You know, you said he did he did a response video.

I didn't want to harp on the fact that he didn't see the film Uh, it's good to know that I mean, it's hard.

You don't want to respond to a film. You haven't seen just saying It's a bad idea You know,

I mean that so but uh, but I think that you know, look There's an aspect where I I would say.

Yeah, I would like it. I do would agree with what he originally said Like let's all get along but Our doctrine does divide but our doctrine does unify as well.

And so the the issue I have is that We can't get along If we're misrepresenting each other if we're

If we're using different definitions If we're redefining things If we're going to argue from the bible, then let's use the biblical terms and and use the way it was in this

In the biblical times, so we talk about these gifts. We should talk about the way they were in the bible and say do those specific gifts continue to today and I just don't see it.

And if you're going to argue that we should be seeing miracles everywhere again Go go to striving fraternity .org

Miracles read the article that I have look at the charts and you'll see I just don't see how you could justify that we should see miracles today when if outside of the writing of scripture in the 4 ,000 years of biblical history.

All we have is seven miracles seven Why would we expect to see them commonly?

It would mean seven seven miracles over 4 000 years we shouldn't be seeing them

They should be kind of like supernatural like a miracle And and so what do we have?

We have people redefining miracle You know, I said earlier not to throw you under the bus drew You said someone getting saved as a miracle people talk about a child being born as a miracle.

That's not a miracle Right because it's not supernatural Well, it is it is it's super natural.

It goes against nature because man has a nature and man But so so let's

So with with a child being born that's not supernatural right with with salvation

I would argue this is the natural. This is the process in which god has ordained for this

And yes, it is it's against our nature. And yes god has to do the work But it is normative

Therefore not a miracle I don't I don't I wouldn't agree with that. It's it's it's akin to a dead man being raised from the dead

It it truly is I would say I think it's the greatest It's the most common miracle and it's happening in a spiritual natural level see and and and this is gonna well

Now we'll really get off on tangent. So just i'll say it and then we'll But it's you know part of my my view with the the idea of superintending

Is god is working through the human being in in the choices the human being makes god is Working through him so that the choices he makes is god intends it to be and therefore

There it's you'd agree that regeneration precedes faith No I wouldn't really what?

Logically logically no regeneration has to precede faith because you can't have

Let me Let me let me use the puritan argument Uh, I think this was christopher love's argument.

Can you have a regenerate unbeliever? Are you are you agreeing that logically it does precede

Logically, yeah. Okay. Well, but so so if it precedes logically, it doesn't it doesn't then mean that it it doesn't precede in temp

Temporally, it just means that temporarily The whole team turns on andrew hahahaha

No, is that but but that has to be true. We cannot we don't participate in regeneration.

That's why it's monogamistic Yeah, so so so here's the thing Let's this is why I say the superintendent make a movie about calvinism

Yeah, good. Um I think you've done it already and it was great. Look look at this guy right here.

He's he's very upset with you Yeah, so so here would be a thing I I take the doctrine of superintending so you go back to scripture.

Did paul write romans? Yes, but No, right god worked through paul

So the very things that paul wrote you see paul's style is different than john's different than moses I don't think that's the same though because it's not because in faith.

I can't exercise that That's well I must be right

Okay, no, but we'll hear it through hear it through um God works through the human authors so that the very words that they chose to do are exactly as god intended it to be

Okay, there's a difference between verbal canary inspiration and regeneration. Yeah, hold on such that god gets all the credit, right?

Does god get all the credit for writing the word of god? And by the way, my how macarthur words it is did paul write romans?

Yes Did did did did the holy spirit write romans? Yes Like he never throws a no in there.

So and but I have to I have to agree with brandon here. It's like verbal plenary inspiration versus Okay, but now then let's go to let's go to sanctification do you do good works

Yes. Yes, because i'm his workmanship because god is working through you You can't take credit for good works.

Can you? You can't take the credit for them, but you actually are doing them but correct a dead man can't bring himself to life we are we are literally we

We so that's why some you can even argue I I don't I wouldn't hold this view but you could say that sanctification is synergistic

In the sense that you are participating and you know god is doing so on some level maybe you could say that I don't like that language, but but regeneration is not synergistic.

It is monergistic the recipient of something you In no way.

Well, let's go back to what you said about miracles. Andrew. Andrew said no a miracle is something

That that god does right? It's something in terms of uh, uh, what was it?

God's nature. It's a supernatural. It's a supernatural. Okay, but but in salvation

Right salvation is just the outworking of god's nature through dead man So so so therefore it is definitionally a miracle so Yeah, I know the dispensationalists have a hard time with jeremiah at 31

But the promise of the new covenant is a new heart and out of the new heart then all of these other things happen regenerate

I'm, not doing that. So stone to flesh. What is that? That's a miracle So I noticed none of you answered my question.

Can you be a regenerate? unbeliever Not temporarily. No, you can't no.

No, the answer is no. Okay, so it's simultaneous. So so We believe at the same moment that that belief is granted to us

Yes So so It is monergistic

Yes, and yet we we are choosing but god is working through no. No, we're not choosing to be regenerated

No We're god is working through us in that choice.

So that choice is super intended. It's exactly as god intended it to be. Oh, no, no Regeneration precedes faith, but you're talking about faith

It's not that faith is logically if you want to say if you want to say choice then faith is the choice

But regeneration comes first and so god changes your heart. Well, it doesn't matter logically temporally

No, it does because if it's if it's if it's chronologically then You can be a regenerate unbeliever then in the exact moment that god changes your heart you now express faith in christ, but You cannot choose to become regenerated.

Oh, I agree with that. Yeah. Yeah So so it must be a miracle a dead person is being brought to life through you to make that choice

No, no, he doesn't yes He changes you so you'll make that choice the same way he does in inspiration the same way he does in no, no, no

He changes you so so so andrew but but but they all work together, right? So and you because you have to throw in the idea of irresistible grace too

So when god does change you you will right? It's it's not it's not you might or or you can't refuse the choice

You will when we look at your will exercise faith We we look at irresistible grace people people

I think often what people do is they make a chronological thing, right? so god does this then we do this and it's the reason irresistible grace is because It's because of the fact that god is working through us that we will choose him

Right, you're talking about working through us as if he's like working on our emotions and working on our

On our intelligence and things like that About a choice. I'm using it the same way as inspiration but i'm saying it's not at all like that because the reality is you are

Spiritually dead you cannot interact with god at all You can't even see the kingdom of god and then god in a moment.

He changes you And then in that moment you now express faith.

You can say he works through you after regeneration Not before I feel like there's a reason they call it the order of salvation.

There you go. Yes, where is that in the bible? john I don't think that's

I don't think order salutis is in there romans eight. I was just about Yeah, it's in the same place that says the gifts have ceased.

Yeah. Yeah No, yeah, we use the same mix of jesus well so the the difference yeah,

I mean the difference being is you know, I and and I think I i'll I could give you guys a calvinism debate at the end of this.

This is insane No, but we could like, you know to explain this out thoroughly It's you know, because if it's the first time you're hearing the superintendent the idea of the doctrine superintending applied here

It takes a little bit of thinking but I think it actually resolves the issues that I think you're misapplying it and you're going in a different it's taking you in a different direction well

I'm, sorry if that's what I think scripture is teaching Just like just I agree with what you're saying about superintending.

I agree with what you're saying about inspiration of scripture That's all true. I'm saying right. It's not at all the way it works with regeneration.

It's completely different process. Yes. Yes Hey andrew matter of theology did a a podcast episode on the order of salutis.

We'll send that to you Yeah, actually, I think we need to update it. I think we do Yeah, we need to update it.

Yeah So no, it's it's it's an issue of you know And I think it's christopher love that said you can't be a you can't have someone that is a unregenerate believer

And you can't have someone that's a regenerate unbeliever. So it's it must be a simultaneous thing it is

Temporarily, it's simultaneous, correct? you know now now what ends up happening because we argue from the logical so much that we end up making it a chronological

But but you but you have to agree that there's a time when a person is dead And then a time when the person is alive and and if that's true, yes in our mind

No, not no not in our mind in reality. You're actually spiritually dead. Are you saying true? Mind of you're saying in the mind of god who knows everything

And talks about us as being he ordains everything exactly. So he in the that's why

I say in the it for The dead heart before the foundation of the world we were chosen

Chosen yes, right not regenerated exactly in time in time, but not in time

Well, we live in time. Yeah, that's why that's exactly why I make the distinction between us and god

We were the enemy we were god's enemies by nature just like the rest of mankind

There truly is a time when I was under god's wrath Even though I was chosen and I had to be justified and I also had to be right.

I also had Because So are you trying to differentiate kind of like the tomas do the add it add intra add extra inside the god's thoughts no

Not necessarily. I'm i'm just saying that There's no to not necessarily

Well There's a clear distinction between the way we think and the way god's trying to figure out what you're saying that's true

Right. I mean, well god doesn't think let me correct that god knows we think Right.

We we have to process He doesn't so so before the foundation of time

To us is language for us to understand that we had nothing to do with our salvation Right But that's true.

That's objectively true. That's not just only in In our way of thinking we did truly have nothing to do with our salvation.

That's true right Are you saying are you saying that we actually contributed to our salvation?

No, okay Okay, no, so so andrew If you're saying we we must have faith before we're regenerated

Is that is that no, no, that's not your position you how would you have faith you're saying it's simultaneously so it's simultaneous so yeah, but there has to be a

Well, because otherwise my Otherwise my faith is what regenerates me

No, well, that's the whole thing your faith doesn't that that's the fallacy That's that's made with those that would argue against calvinism to say our faith saves us

Because because or or what they'll usually say our belief right and yet philippians 1 29 are that belief we have is what it's

Granted to us. Yeah, and it's granted in a simultaneous act Right Faith is the instrument by which god, uh binds with people to himself.

Yeah, but but faith is different than regeneration And I I think that you're sort of smashing those two things together that like faith because it's simultaneous which is true

But they're not the same thing one One has to logically precede the other and that means that we are dead not not just logically

Actually realistically really? Yeah, so there is so then it's not simultaneous

It's it's simultaneous in time like a light switch. What comes first flipping the switch or the bulb coming on?

We know what comes But that's only logically true it's not

No, it's actually chronologically well, because you're talking about the speed of light, but temporarily

Temporarily, they're I know I flipped the switch the light comes on right? So so it's a lot logically the switch being no sex later, right?

Logically, it's it's a preceding thing. But but essentially they're they're the same Action happening at the same time, but we know which one is happening

And so that light can't turn itself on I have to flip that switch And so that's true of regeneration.

You were once dead and you could god couldn't work on your your mind He couldn't work through your heart.

He couldn't bring you to Logical conclusions because you your heart was dead.

And what is what does god say about a dead heart? It is spiritually insensitive. It has no ability to perceive the things of god

Correct, if that's true Yeah, we can't participate man andrew you're full of just surprises man

So going back to what we originally said, that's what you know might be the whole podcast That's what makes it a miracle.

That's what makes it a miracle going back to the original that was started on this That's what makes it what les just said.

That's what makes it a miracle. It's resurrection. Yes. Yeah Yeah And then I guess could you really say then baby?

A baby being born is a miracle because still no one knows what causes that heart to beat

From the baby, but it's a natural process. Yes Let's get more specifically with that is you have a couple different views of how a soul is created

Because that's real. That's real I should have just let it ride. How long is this podcast? It was over half an hour ago.

Um I'll just wrap up with this is you know, you you have either the belief that You know, so either god creates out of nothing a spirit

Either at conception or birth or when at some point of the that process that makes the human a human being um which violates what we would see in genesis one that in the seventh day god, he he

He rested from the creation out of nothing So the other option is that god created all the souls and he's just waiting for babies to interject those spirits into the

You know into the souls. That's I mean, that's what mormonism would teach Right. Yeah that all the spirits are already there just waiting to be put into a body

I I my position would be that I think the the most biblical one is the one that god created in the human process

Of procreation the creating of a spirit and so it's just part of that process that we can't comprehend sure, so That'd be my position

I'm not saying anything. What are those two terms? Do you remember? Oh the uh

Yeah, there's three different terms. I'd have to look them up again They're named after people I think we should do a different episode on that.

Yeah That'd be fun so Well, we we we went all over the place, especially at the end

So you know, but You know,

I think that I appreciate you guys coming in I think it was I think it's look the reality is When we talk about the these things one thing

I want folks to realize is yeah, it is It is hard to discuss The cessation of gifts with people that believe they've that they are practicing them

Okay, because it's so personal because it's so personal and so look if you've been listening thus far you believe that gifts continue my challenge to you is try to separate your feelings your emotions from your thinking

And and think through what we're saying look at what scripture actually says on these take us back and say

Is first corinthians 12 13 and 14? Teaching me a different view of tongues than what i've been taught go to strive fraternity .org

Go look for we have a paper just search for tongues. You'll see You know two papers one is specifically on the biblical understanding of tongues.

The other is on have have tongues ceased Read through those with this questioning instead of saying let me see how

I could prove it wrong Read them and say is this what scripture is actually teaching? You know, could could you be wrong?

we have to be able to ask that with this and so um, I I think the thing that we we need to to realize is

Yes people can get uh Can get emotional but truth is what matters

And the reality is when we stand before the feet of christ We're all going to stand before him all every all five of us here.

Our theology is going to be corrected michael brown Uh ruslan the guys remner all of us will have our theology.

We're not perfect in our theology if you think you are You're wrong We just don't know where our theology is off Okay, and if we were honest with ourselves, we we would you know, when we when it's pointed out we change

But the reality is that every one of us will be wrong and so instead of Always defending to the to hilt

Uh things that you know, we should examine both sides Okay One of the things i'll challenge everyone here

Is to be able to study both sides of an argument you know Less is is a presbyterian

Wants to do a thing on on pedo, you know a presbyterian baptism view of baptism I can make an argument

From a from for a presbyterian view of baptism. That's accurate One that less would say.

Yeah, that's a good presbyterian argument Okay. So if you are a continuationist, can you make the same argument?

that Any of us here could agree with when it comes to the gifts Because if you can't make our argument you're not actually engaging with it

And that's what we need to be able to do. We need to be able to to engage with each other's arguments uh,

I I think that we could do that with continuationism, but I don't I I don't see many continuationists that do that with cessationism

I could be wrong, but we'll see and and if remnant radio you guys want to have a debate or just better yet have a

A good discussion. Let's do that do it on on your show. This show doesn't matter but Don't say that no one's willing to debate these guys

No one's willing to challenge them there. There's plenty of people willing to do it. John macarthur.

Why? Have you seen john macarthur ever do a debate other than with r .c. Sproul? Yeah, I I don't know of any and that's the only reason he did the debate was because It was r .c.

Sproul that was a point I was going to make earlier it was martin lloyd jones He said that god doesn't want to be debated He has to be proclaimed and you know, it's that's the very reason justin peters doesn't do debates exactly

Yeah, that's why I don't do them Yeah So, all right. Well, we I appreciate you guys coming on.

I don't know what we got planned for next week I don't have a plan. So I got an idea. Okay We invite less back and we have a debate where less argues the credo

Baptism position and andrew argues pedo baptism. You will see how accurately they represent.

I I think that'd be fun Well, well you're like you're like dispensational baptist though.

It's a little different than what i'm used to i'm used to the covenantal So it could be a little different but i'll

From the bible. I know Yeah, we should we should just have a legit baptism debate

I think that's what we should do you want to come on and and and discuss it We let's just do the discussion. It actually

I think it'd be helpful for folks to see the differences We did an episode like that. Remember that we did one before you.

Yeah Um, maybe yeah, let's keep in touch this week. Okay That could be fun

Yeah, we will say my baptism Yeah, well until next week just remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of god