Becoming Better Theologians (part 17)

Well because you know that I really am completely done with free will predestination all that stuff, but I had to I had to bring to your attention.

I found a Q &A Online with anybody know who

Greg Boyd is show of hands

Greg Boyd No, he didn't used to be the basketball coach at USC any

Any other question okay, Greg Boyd is Received his doctorate from the

University of Princeton He is a Professor of systematic theology at Luther University Here he stands he can do no other well

That's really not Greg Boyd, but listen to I mean he is a professor at Luther Seminary wherever that is

Listen to this question He's asked how do you respond to Ephesians 1 4 & 5 and then specifically

Ephesians 1 refers to believers as predestined before the foundation of the world How do you reconcile this with your view that free actions of people like choosing to believe in Christ?

Can't be predestined or even listen or even foreknown

Ahead of time Can't be predestined or even foreknown.

Why would that be? Why would somebody believe that Because they don't believe in the sovereignty of God is correct they would say that they believe in the sovereignty of God, but what they really believe in is a

God who is learning a God who is seeing things develop

Just as we do Who says you know who kind of observes and goes? Oh, that's interesting

I never would have seen that Steve would have picked that article online and What a strange thing to talk about This is this is the

God of we and we use this term sometimes open theism Open theism meaning that God It is in that learning mode, but that he's so enamored of Free will and of us

That he would never force us or you know kind of corral us in that wouldn't be right

So listen to what Greg Boyd says well, let's read Ephesians 1 4 & 5 first Just so that we all know what we're talking about here

Bruce you want to read that I'm going to turn my iPhone off so I don't get any phone calls during my class

Because then I probably have to answer This is what Greg Boyd says About those verses it took 300 years

Before anyone in church history interpreted the New Testament to teach that God individually predestined certain people to go to heaven and leaves and Leaves a nice way of saying predestines all others to go to hell

Now can you think of a problem with that that statement right there it took 300 years before anyone in church history

Interpreted the New Testament to teach that God individually predestines people to go to heaven and hell any problem with that statement

Well the people that wrote it are so that way Joni you're not in your head Okay, I mean even when

Jesus is talking about Judas You know we don't get the idea he calls him a son of perdition

We don't get the idea that somehow Jesus tried to talk Judas out of what he was going to do

You know and other there are other issues there. You know no one can Come to me etc etc, but I think it's interesting that he says it that way because do we have

Comprehensive records of what the early church taught we have some records But do we have comprehensive records in other words can we go you know like go online and we can read

John Piper's notes and John MacArthur's Notes and all these can't know there's nothing like that So I mean for him to say categorically that it took 300 years before anyone in church history interpreted the

New Testament to teach Not only is that Questionable based on the fact that the people who wrote it understood it and whether they understood it his way or not we'll get to in a minute, but There's no way of saying that now listen when he says

Augustine's interpretation Decisively influenced church history, and it was followed by the early

Protestant reformers and those who continued in the reformed tradition Can you see a hole in that argument

Bruce or? Pelagius Yeah, it wasn't like Augustine was the new kid on the block, and he was being challenged as the heretic

It was quite the other way around Pelagius was the one raising the new ideas and Augustine was challenging him as the heretic, but I but That last statement by Boyd Augustine's interpretation decisively influenced church history and was followed by the early

Protestant reformers Augustine you know what 4th 5th century a .d.

To the Reformation there's a gap of 11 1200 years there, and what was going on during that time decisively influenced church history was followed by the early

Protestant reformers Well, I mean there's a there's a huge gap there

You know just it just dropped out of sight for about a millennia while the Roman Catholic Church went on this

Pelagian Vacation here He says that now listen to this from Boyd the fact that you have trouble reading the verses you mentioned in a non

Calvinist way Testifies to how influential this tradition continues to be of how we as opposed to pre

Augustinian Pre Augustinian Church read the Bible or What's the alternative to that?

You know Boyd saying in other words that Augustus is so influenced the church that you can't even read Ephesians 1 4 & 5 you're so predetermined your understanding of Ephesians 1 4 & 5 that you can't even read it with an open mind

You have to read it with the Augustinian influence And the alternative of course would be

It's the right way to understand it He says as you mentioned in your question one of the texts most frequently field appealed to in support of this view is

Ephesians 1 Then he says in keeping with the Jewish practice of his day

I think Paul was speaking of a corporate election in this passage When Jews thought of election or predestination they thought primarily of the nation of Israel Israel as a nation was elected not for salvation, but for service

But this didn't mean that every individual born into Israel was part of God's chosen people

Only those who kept covenant with God were considered true Israelites Now in light of the context of Ephesians 1 would you see any problem with him saying that this is a corporate election

Where God chooses the elect, but some of those elect might not really be elect

Well, I mean, that's what he'd have to be arguing because Israel isn't even in Ephesians 1 So you'd have to be saying just as God chose

Israel as a people, but not all Israel was true Israel Then God in Ephesians 1 chose the elect, but not all of them are really going to be

Doesn't understand the difference between the Old and the New Covenant mark Yes, but here's what and we'll get back to this because he says basically that God chooses and elect people and then those people

Choose themselves freely to believe or not believe so election is

Election is non -discriminatory What does he do with Ephesians 2 8 and 9

Well, I don't know because I didn't I didn't I didn't read that quote I mean, I have seven more pages of Greg Boyd, but I'm not gonna go through them all

But I mean Greg Boyd is a is a major He was a guy just to give you an idea a few years ago

Was him and one or two others that they tried to vote out of something called the evangelical theological society

Which are basically all the talking heads of the Christian world Because he held these views that are outside The Norman they couldn't muster up the courage to vote him out.

So sad times Anyway, he went on to say but this didn't mean that every individual was born into Israel Into Israel as part of God's chosen people only those who kept covenant with God were considered true

Israelites. Well, let's read Just and I know this is a familiar passage, but let's read

Ephesians 1 3 to 14 and let's see if we can find a way to get to this understanding here

Paul writes now, I think it is interesting because this is just a generic opening to the to a letter for the first two verses and then

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him in love

He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will to the praise of his glorious grace

With which he blessed us in the beloved in him We have redemption through his blood the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of his grace

Which he lavished upon us in all wisdom and insight Making known to us the mystery of his will according to his purpose

Which he set forth in Christ as as a plan for the fullness of time

To unite all things in him things in heaven and things on earth in him

We have obtained an inheritance Having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will

So that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory

In him you also When you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation and believed in him were sealed with the promised

Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory

Now reading that and then going back to what Boyd says here When he says what Jews thought of election or predestination they thought primarily of the nation of Israel Israel as a nation was elected not for salvation

But for service and this didn't mean that every individual born in Israel was part of God's chosen people

Chuck Okay Well, I don't think he's necessarily saying that per se.

I think he's saying that Paul as a Jew is writing this with the understanding that a

Jew would have of Election in other words that just as the nation of Israel was chosen

But only some people in that nation were believers and were actually

You know came to faith in the same way He's saying that the elect in Ephesians 1 are chosen as a group and then only some of those people are

Going to choose to come to faith Now I I would put it this way that often we hear that, you know

Ephesians 1 3 to 14 It's like what? 99 or a hundred and four

Greek words just all jammed together and it's one great big outburst of praise to God now It would kind of boggle your mind that Paul would interrupt his letter, which is what he does here

Interrupt his letter with just this spontaneous explosion of praise and gratitude to God If what he was really saying is, you know,

I'm so thankful that you chose a people and Out of those people some are going to choose you that is awesome

It doesn't even make sense This is from beginning to end and Ephesians 1 this is about the sovereignty of God and salvation and why

Paul is thankful for it and and you know to say these Listen to listen to this exegesis now as he goes on and I'm almost done here.

But listen to this This is in -depth study of the Greek Suppose I conduct a conference at which

I show a movie clip from the Princess Bride You choose at the last moment to attend this conference at the end of the movie clip you raise your hand and ask mr.

Boyd when did you decide that will we'd have to watch that silly movie clip to which

I might respond Well, I decided that six months ago You then turn around and say quite accurately to the whole conference

Mr. Boyd predestined us to watch this movie clip six months ago But notice

I didn't predestined that you individually would watch this movie clip What I predestined is that whoever shows up at this conference would watch this movie clip

Now that you decided even at the last minute to be part of this conference What was predestined for the whole becomes predestined for you?

You are part of the us who was predestined to watch the clip

Is a doctorate of theology Princeton And again, you know,

I would just say if that's if that's the case if this is and what he's using an analogy and basically what he's saying again is like what

I said before that God has chosen this massive group of people that Paul refers to as the elect the chosen and that Paul is writing to express his thanks to God that God chose all these people

But really ultimately that only some of those who are chosen are going to choose to be chosen

That makes sense I mean when he says there You know now that you decided even at the last minute to be part of this conference in other words to be part of the elect

What was predestined for the whole elect becomes predestined for you

Peggy says so he bases salvation by works and I I think it's pretty hard to get away from He talks, you know in the in the later pages about The God chose us that we'd be holy and blameless before him.

And when you start reading what he how he explains that I'd have to say you would say it's salvation by works

So, yeah Pam makes the

Analogy and this is this is right, you know, there's a general call Jesus says in Matthew 22 that many are called but few are chosen there's a general call and what

Greg Boyd has done is kind of mangled this idea of a general call in with Actual election and the effective call of the

Holy Spirit anyway, I just thought that was interesting, you know, because we had a question here a couple weeks ago about free will and What do you think about it?

I mean, this is this is the end result if you want to say if you want to take the position That Salvation isn't predestined or even foreknown

In other words, this is this is a step beyond. This is a true free will position Because if I say and Greg Boyd understands what

I was saying a couple weeks ago, even if it wasn't entirely clear that if we say that God didn't for ordain that he didn't choose that he didn't predestine that he didn't set his affections on some people before the foundations of the world irrevocably and upon that basis were saved and if we want to say that For knowing in other words just God looking down the corridors of time and choosing someone

Still violates our free will which is what Greg Boyd's saying Because if like I said if you look down the quarters of God looks down the quarters of time sees that you're going to believe

And then you are irrevocably going to believe Then you don't have free will at that moment.

It's already been determined in some way shape or form. It can't be changed It can't be altered. There's no circumstance that can come about where you would change your mind mark

No, no, I don't I I don't Well, he's he's a smart guy, but I you know,

I kind of I You know short of a little blasphemy in the movie Which is about five seconds of Fred Savage saying things that I don't know why it was necessary to include in the script

I like this movie, but I would never use it as you know to explain predestination, so I But if ultimately if you want free

Unfettered will then it has to be a you know at the moment decision.

I Mean we can have various exercises or understandings of our will but a free will absolutely free would have to be something that God hadn't determined or Ahead of time or could could be changed anyway

We are now going to shift gears We've been talking about why people don't believe and we got off of this thing about free will

You know mostly driven by me And now we're going to be talking about how

God has revealed himself to mankind And as I started reading this I thought well, obviously there are two ways

Natural revelation a specific revelation, but he kind of takes us in a different direction as it's a little bit interesting

Listen to what Culver says he says the title of this chapter has nothing or it has to do with the

Bible as Such only in a fractional way in other words minimal reference to the

Bible True God has told us of himself through the scriptures and the scriptures have a unique place in the history of Revelation Yet there were many people who received a saving knowledge of God Before there was a syllable of written

Holy Scripture Interesting to think about And he cites as examples

Abel Enoch Noah and Abram Or Abraham as we like to call him

But he says even at the present time there are whole communities of Christian believers wherein only a small minority can read

So if they don't read the Bible, how do they come to? Know God Well Obviously because they have missionaries who preach the word to them

But he says granting that the Bible is now our chief source of knowledge about God our

Purpose is to set forth by what variety of means God has made himself known to people in times past and perhaps

Presently and I kind of made my you know gave me goosebumps Perhaps presently it made me nervous, but I'm okay now

To put the matter another way granting the Bible conveys all the perfect information we have about God true

Says where did the writers learn these things? now

It is true right that all of it is via the Holy Spirit But by what means that they even grasp these truths

You know Talks about some of the books that have been written

Then he says they're here that when he talks about some of these books and really he's talking about books by Neo -orthodox writers we talked about some of them

Bart and others Listen to this, you know when I this is why I get queasy when

I hear quotes from some of these guys, you know that Make their way into sermons or whatever else he says here

I have not found one these neo -orthodox teachers who teaches a doctrine of atonement

Which regards Christ's work as a propitiation of divine wrath or even sinners?

Redemption in the cross as an objective reconciliation much less propitiation of divine law or wrath

Which is a very nice way of saying what that if you have one of these books in your shelves

Make way for something better like Tom Clancy, you know Remember remember the first time you know,

Mike was over at my house. He probably does this with everybody. I'm sure He goes over to your house. He looks at your books and he goes, you know someday those will all be replaced by theological books

Yeah, I laughed too when he said it but it happened, okay now listen to this is about the mid 20th century he quotes a dean of the

Faculty of Divinity at the University of Edinburgh an admirer of Bruner who's one of those neo -orthodox guys

He authored a survey of recent views of revelation of the Bible in which he said quote

Throughout the greater part of Christian history the distinction between revealed and natural or rational knowledge was commonly made and An intelligent schoolboy could took could have told you what the distinction was

He would have explained to you that there are two sharply contrasted ways in which men have gained knowledge of God and things divine by the unaided exercise of their own powers of thinking and but by direct communication from God himself

If instead of the schoolboy you had consulted a learned theologian you would have received very much the same answer

It just would have sounded better So there are two ways we can know about God one is specific or divine revelation direct revelation and the other is

The unaided exercise of our own powers of thinking which means what? Yes, and we're gonna get to that.

It's general revelation God in our own image or us in God's image.

I think would be a better way of looking at it but yeah, I mean, how do we well,

I Don't want to get ahead of myself here And the very framework of the

Bible the structure of the Bible from the story of the dispersion of the human race at Babel after the flood through the story of Abraham and On to the end is the theme of God's providing both redemption and revelation for mankind

In the beginning as he said earlier, you know with Abel and Enoch and Abraham and Noah How did

God communicate with mankind? I mean did Noah did he say Noah today? I want you to read Genesis 23.

Oh, he couldn't have done that because Noah's already Had experienced the flood. How do you do it?

He didn't wait wait a minute, let me say that he did in a way that they knew it was him and they obeyed and they

Obeyed him And Well, it is true,

I mean Bart's and Brunner and all these guys are battling on endlessly and or did and They want to reinvent the wheel instead of It is true that they come up with strange doctrines with new things, you know and they're paying attention to myths and fables why because Well, ultimately because they're not safe.

Let's look at Hebrews 1 1 and 2 And when somebody has that would they read it, please

Okay, and Culver Culver asked this question he says how did he speak to the prophets

From that text, what would our answer be? Many ways and so directly would be one.

Yes Dreams Visions and it's funny, you know hearing

Naya to say that because then what what should we expect today? The same thing say some

Never seen has anybody else anybody seen a burst of a bush burning Yeah, and talking

Brad has no it burns up oh good point

You know if a bush is on fire what happens? I've seen a few Christmas trees go up But they never, you know sat there endlessly being consumed and then talking we at the same time

What were some of the ways also what sort of information or communication was conveyed by what means did

Cain and Abel This is interesting by what means did Cain and Abel learn that God requires sacrifice or for that matter requires worship at all?

If Enoch walked with God and pleased him. How did Enoch know? What would what

God wanted from him in the first place? I Think I think you're right.

I think it was mom and dad You know mom and dad teach you the Holy Spirit convicts you and you walk with the

Lord Back before there was a Bible. I mean then we're so what we lose sight of you know, when these these guys were all living four five six seven hundred years however long they lived

Was you know how much of the family was still around, you know, I think

I'm gonna go visit my great -great -great -great -great I Mean I watch this, you know this how many of you guys have seen this, you know ancestry .com

these commercials and stuff like that You know, how wild would it be to not have to go online to you know, figure out what the family treated?

But just to go down the street, you know, I'm gonna go ask Adam. What was You know what my great -great -grandfather was like Wild Okay Now if as Paul says the heathen suppress certain truths about God before any missionary even finds them

What is the content of their knowledge of God and how do they apprehend it? Who knows what verse that is it talks about how we say

Unsafe people suppress the truth and unrighteousness One what

Romans 1 18 is correct.

Okay There are further questions such as are the heathen who never hear the gospel truly lost

But you know what people debate that How shall we discover a true and it really is it's that's a it's a hard question

Why is that a hard question by the way, you know, what about the you know, it used to be You know, what about the pygmies in Africa then it was the

Aborigines in Australia Then it was a you know, now it could be the English in England because they you know, they never hear the gospel

What about Okay People have a wrong view again

You know it's because God's not fair if he doesn't provide an equal opportunity to everybody and the truth is that everybody suppresses the truth and Unrighteousness and that God sends the gospel to his elect

Bruce Yeah, I mean it it would turn us into you know, if there are what are they called, you know

Hyper Calvinists who say that you don't have to preach the gospel anybody then a hyper Arminian would be like, you know

The exact opposite you you might as well just not even send people because they're going to heaven. Anyway, it's better for them

Not to hear the gospel Yeah, Charlie Yeah, if you're

Not elected not elected and your remoteness doesn't change that but you know, I was just thinking even as you were talking about the

Some of the movies that come out in the last, you know, 20 or 30 years Dances with wolves, you know, who were the good guys?

You know as the Indians Was that Disney movie Pocahontas, you know?

It was the big bad and and then the the last the last movie that really portrayed that very well was

Made a billion dollars. Yeah avatar you know, it's the it's the it's the people who are in tune with the earth who are good and holy and pure and everybody else is crazy

Well and Pam's getting way ahead of us But it's true that everybody has some understanding of the truth

They have some light we might say and what do they do with it? They don't even follow that you know, they pursue the desire of their hearts and we already know from Romans 118 that they suppress that truth and From Romans 2 we would know that they have the law of God written on their hearts.

And what do they do with that? You know, do they yield to it? No, they don't was there a hand in the back somewhere

Asher oh, sorry And let's see, oh

So here we go. We're at a different form of communication from God Now this is a kind of a scary title for the subtopic here the inward prompting by the

Holy Spirit The inward prompting doubt Nyada was just sharing here and I'm sure we'll be safe because this will be never translated into Portuguese But we're sharing a relative is getting married and told

Nyada that You know when asked why that date was selected that God told him that date must be selected

Now she had some fun with him, of course theological fun What did you ask him?

Yeah, you can choose to believe or not to believe God's not sovereign over salvation But he is sovereign over your wedding date.

I don't know that doesn't seem But anyway the genuine biblical inward prompting by the

Holy Spirit There's strong evidence in the Bible that the Holy Spirit Who does now in a very special way convince people's hearts of sins?

has always striven has always worked on those hearts

He has used such influences as we can only surmise to prompt members of our fallen race that they should seek

God in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and Find him that's x 1727

However, you know talking about this Conscience this law of God written in their hearts.

What do people do often with it? Here's what Culver says. He says this admirable impulse has not often led to true religion, but rather to Idolatry polytheism as well as even baser forms of worship

Why why would that be? Why would the law of God the Holy Spirit kind of?

Generically not specifically convicting of sin, but generically letting people know that they fall short of God's perfection

Why would that lead them to? polytheism Paganism idolatry why?

Charlie We rush to solve the problem in a natural way

We create idols and and knowing that there's something greater than us, you know Now we all of a sudden we sound like we're in a 12 -step program

But knowing that there's something greater than us does not solve our problem. It leaves us looking for answers

But the answer we would never come up with is that there's a perfect Holy God that were fallen creatures and that God himself would provide the answer by sending his son

Jesus Christ to die in our place We would never make that up and that's why when I say or when people say to me people made up the

Bible I'm like have you read it? You would never make that up would anybody choose to write or to make up a religion where they're the losers

You can look through every religion in the world and you won't find one that says you know What every single person even

Islam Islam has what one person who stands way above the rest? Muhammad You know if you if you so much as draw a cartoon of Muhammad then what happens, you know, you've committed blasphemy well

It's to make him out almost as a god But every religion on top of being works -based also has some kind of Inherent good in us ability even

Islam does that we have this ability to obey that we have this Ability to do the right thing

Christianity says no apart from the work of God you don't And I don't

I don't think you'd ever find a religion that would make that up I mean you read the Old Testament and you look at all the things

That The men who write it do the men who are writing about you know

All these things that are happening on the inspiration of the Holy Spirit even Moses Doesn't get into the promise line and you're like look if you're

Moses And you're making this up out of thin air. You've got to construct a narrative where you come out looking good

No one does Yeah, turn

Yes Yeah, no, that's true that that just by mere conviction alone you could never come to an understanding of of Christ that that is true.

And you know, what does Romans 10 tell us that? You have to have heard the word you have to have heard the word preached to you taught to you in order to be saved

But There is a a sense that all men have that they are that there's something greater than them and there's something out there that needs to be appeased because there's something lacking in them and I mean it gets played out in all kinds of bizarre ways whether it's human sacrifice or whatever

But throughout the centuries people have sought to appease God, but usually in Fairly horrific ways

Now it's interesting and we'll close with this Because we haven't had any Catholic bashing yet this morning the people the people

Roman Church since Vatican to continues to make her exclusive claims as sole sphere of salvation and custodian of divine revelation

Yet she the church consistent with her insistence that human reasoning faculties remain unimpaired

By the fall allows or at least seems to allow that without benefit of special revelation human beings can and do knew do know

God in a saving way and Then he quotes from Vatican to The sacred synod professes that God the first principle and last end of all things can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason

It T and they refer to Romans 120 it teaches that it is to his revelation that we must attribute the fact that those things

Which in themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason can in the present condition of the human race be known by all men

With ease with firm certainty and without the contamination of error translation general revelation is

It can lead to salvation it's perfect it's without error So not only do they say in this paragraph

That the fall had no impact on our human reason but it had no impact in the world in so far as It is a perfect revelation of God to us and that we can understand him through it in a salvific way

You can be saved by general revelation and Then Culver goes back and says this and we'll close here this is quite in keeping with the latent that is hidden doctrine of universal salvation prevalent in many

Vatican to pronouncements and He goes on to note in the church dogmatics of Karl Barth our neo -orthodox friend several

Roman Catholic theologians of worldwide reputation prepared the way for the Vatican to pronouncements and various subsequent official statements

I Mean it is interesting when you see the kind of relationship that The Roman Catholic Church has had with Islam and other things.

I mean, it's only The current Pope that started getting the Catholic Church, I would say back on track, you know to being kind of an exclusivistic

You know works based Religion and I say good for him. It's good when the it's good when the

Pope understands his own religion. So Yeah, yeah, it certainly does seem like it would be a contradictory statement, but I'm sure if we had some

Cardinal up here he could Soft shoe his way out of that Yeah, I mean it if if you can't know for certain you're saved and then at the other end of the statement they say this, you know that That it can be known by all men with ease with firm certainty and without the contamination of error

I mean think about that though general revelation can be known without error and You know, of course the

Roman Catholic Church would tell you that the real danger is what? Scripture, you know if you study scripture and you come to a different understanding than what the church teaches then, you know

That's that's the real problem. That's what you really have to watch out for general revelation. Perfect without error Pretty scared.

Well, we need to close Father We thank you for your sure word

That you have preserved for us that you have even against the assaults of men neo -orthodox theologians and even going on today with the so -called lost

Gospels and all the Nonsense that's raised up against your word how you have preserved it how you have kept it for us that we might know you

Father we praise you for that. We praise you for the gospel for the truth of it that you would use your spirit in our lives to convict us of sin and our need for a

Savior and father that You would even in time save us father.

I pray that you would bless our day as we seek to Worship you here fully with our hearts totally devoted to you