Evaluating Christian Leaders: Some Guidelines

It is a wonderful day if it rains, if it rains, I'm looking outside and it's been cloudy actually the sun just kind of peeked through but I've been thinking maybe it'll rain today because we've had a bad drought we've had

I don't know when the last time we had rain was we had a little drizzle on Monday but before that I don't think it hasn't been much grass is brown the

Mohawk River which is near where I live has a 25 mile long algae bloom that's caused by the runoff from fertilizer and so it's high nitrogen content that creates this toxic bloom that actually can kill dogs the farmers

I live in apple country they're not doing too well and I know we're not the only place in the country that's having this issue it's kind of strange because I saw yesterday that Sand Dunes National Park it looks like the ocean they got water everywhere and Dinosaur State Dinosaur Track State Park in Texas has such a bad drought that previously previous tracks that no one had seen because they were underwater of dinosaurs you can now see and they look fresh which is interesting since they're supposed to be what how many millions of years old and yet they look like they just were formed so the rescuing devices employed to save Darwinian theory

I mean it almost seems miraculous doesn't it that you could have that erosion didn't do anything in that time even be it being underwater so so anyway there's drought we should pray for that if we're in an area that that has drought even if we're not just pray pray for some rain and I wanted to let's see we're gonna talk about something important today

I wanted to just let you all know though that I realize that there's a few things I've teased that I haven't come out with yet one of them is a deeper dive into Tim Keller's teachings that are not related to social justice but are problems unorthodox and are heterodox we're gonna talk about that I still am planning on doing that so just so everyone knows

I haven't forgotten this particular podcast that you're listening to right now was supposed to be released and I March I think

March I did a lot of the notes for this in March I did a lot of the thinking through this these issues in March and there's three reasons that I want to release this podcast this podcast is on evaluating

Christian leaders and I want to just give some guidelines for how to do that this isn't exhaustive but it is practical and important and I think number one it's gonna help us think through evaluating as biblically and consistently as possible so when you're approaching a ministry or a

Christian leader John how do you do it how do you shine the light of Scripture and reason and really and well just show the errors but you're not a jerk about it how do you what is it you know and sometimes

I might fail my own standard I think I certainly do at times there's no doubt that but but there is a standard and that's the point and I want to give that to you and what

I at least attempt to try to meet when I do exercise discernment on ministries and leaders number two

I want to provide insight into how I approach personally this analysis on the podcast so this is what you're hearing let's get back into the factory let's see how the sausage is made so you know how

I'm approaching this and that way you can hold me accountable too and then number three understanding the difference between cancel culture and discernment and I don't know if we'll spend as much time on this but I just want to note that I think things are confusing now some people are painting with broad brushes because I've seen the comments that you know

John you're just a discernment ministry which I didn't even really know what that was when I started talking about some of the social justice issues but that's what

I've heard people say and but they'll they use it sometimes some of these people at least kind of broadly and they color with one shade it seems that everything's a discernment ministry quote -unquote if it's even the least bit critical against evangelical elites and and I that's just not true there are and I'm meaning this in the pejorative sense right this

I don't know why discernment ministry is a bad it gets a bad rap to be honest I mean the words themselves don't seem like they should but but but it has it's there's a sense in which it people who say that are trying to convey that it's yellow journalism it's inaccurate the whole point of it is to just rip people down in dishonest ways

I think that's what people are trying to evoke and the fact is there are people who do that and I think as cancel culture has gained dominance and it's nothing new but it's just more popular now there's a big difference between that and then what someone like myself on this podcast is attempting to do

I think the motives are different I think the results are different I think with cancel culture you have people who are they're trying to they're doing a few things but one is their goal is to get someone whether it's someone who's dead historically a hero who's probably more accomplished than they are usually which makes them feel good generally

I think I think that's that tends to be the case be lesser men tend to like to rip down greater men but but anyway the point is to get that person so smeared so tarnished so trashed that no one will touch them with a 10 -foot pole that they are and if they're alive that they can't gain employment they can't gain a following they can't they are canceled that's what cancel culture is there's no hope of redemption right there's no hope of understanding differently there's no hope of contextualizing it's all just there there's no sense of proportion it's just on the scale of 1 to 10 it's number 10 bad and anyone associated with it here's the second element is also bad so second third degree separation is totally in bounds and so if you're someone who once said something nice or associated in any way shared a stage perhaps with someone who now is deemed to be a horrible person then you are also marred with that that same that that that analysis applies to you you're endorsing it's seen as an endorsement so there's no sense of proportion there's no level of trying to rightly judge something it's it's all smear tactics it's and and so there that does exist but that is different than I think someone who is truly trying to point out for the good of the church false teachers and especially and those with characters that are would be consistent with false teachers

I think there's there's a big difference between those two things and that's hopefully what will come out as we over the course of this podcast so and I'm gonna use we're gonna just for fun

I haven't like prepared slides on this but for fun I think we'll just do a few evangelical leaders and bring them through this grid and maybe

I'll share with you some personal things I already thought to myself you know I'm going to at least one of the these evangelical leaders is going to be

John MacArthur and just because I'm someone who respects John MacArthur an awful lot I probably share more in common with his theology than I do most at least very big names in evangelicalism and and I've gained a lot from him so how would

I bring someone like John MacArthur through this this grid or and and I mean this applies to myself this applies to to anyone who's teaching in the public sphere in Christianity so so part of I think my thinking in this initially when

I put these notes together was I had done a video on the situation that had taken place like 20 years ago at MacArthur's Church and I was very skeptical of some of the at least the more extreme claims that were being made about John MacArthur knowingly supporting child abuse that was the insinuation some people even said as much and and so I went meticulously through a timeline and and through details just to show that we don't we aren't justified in concluding this and I remember at the time

I had I there were the people and this is probably I mean a lot of people most people

I think it just appreciated me trying to shine the light of truth as much as I could on the situation but there was definitely a strong minority of people who thought

I was like a MacArthurite that I was part of like a cult with John MacArthur as a leader and then there was an even smaller minority but I still saw their comments of people who viewed

MacArthur they probably were in something approaching that they thought that my critiques because I made a few critiques

I said well look you know this is why I don't really care for megachurches they're so big how can you do church discipline in a megachurch you know when you don't know the person you're disciplining them that seems awkward that seems just the accountability doesn't seem to be working as well when you have that scale and then

I said that I forget I said something else that was kind of critical and then there was people jumping down my throat that I was questioning

John MacArthur so I was like well I'm I love John MacArthur but I recognize he's a man he's a he's a man that's done a lot of good

I believe but he's also a man and just like I'm a man just like you're a man man or woman a human you know you're you're not someone who is in your heavenly body yet and devoid of sin so I want to I'm I guess

I'm taking a time machine back a few months as I review these notes and as I go through at least putting

John MacArthur's ministry in a sense through this grid just as an example but I will do a few names in evangelicalism and and none of this

I should just say at the outset none of this is intended to be it's not intended to destroy a ministry a legitimate ministry it's not intended and I shouldn't really have to say any of this because I think it's obvious but just for people who might get nervous

I have amazing respect for people who have taken hard stands and MacArthur certainly is one of them against the spirit of the age and I've said that many multiple times on this show so nothing

I say because I will say a few things where I differ that does not mean that I'm better far be it from me man

I if I was in charge of the things John MacArthur's in charge of I would probably run them into the ground at this point in my life

I mean there's much more wisdom I'm sure that he has but it doesn't mean again that he's without fault or without sin or without that he's not capable of those things at least right so I just need to preface it with just saying if I if you hear me say anything

I don't even know exactly what I'll say yet but I know I'll probably say some things that I'll say point out some differences that I have where I would disagree with maybe something in one of MacArthur's ministries that is not meant to communicate that I think

I'm better or I think you should burn the ministry down or because I'm not in that cancel culture group and there are there's not one person

I think that's has does it perfectly no one except Jesus Christ right even the

Apostles ministries had their warts at times and that's why there's forgiveness and there's repentance and so anyway

I need to say that off the top just in case I wanted to make that qualification now before we jump into the whole podcast and I give you lots of Bible verses and we try to apply them

I want to just let you know about an option for Christians especially homeschoolers especially who are thinking about college now college is college is expensive there is no doubt about it college is also difficult because it's hard to know which one actually is going to provide you with the truth and I get these questions all the time

I just had one yesterday John can you recommend a college for me please well I don't know to what extent some colleges are compromised with social justice teaching or not compromised just because they haven't come out clean on it and there's some colleges

Grove City is a good example of this that have been giving mixed signals for so long it's it's probably better not to trust it even though there might be some great professors there and so John what college can you recommend well

I've told people before there are some colleges that have taken more public stands or at least seminaries

I've mentioned that Southern Evangelical Seminary has taken a hard stand against social justice not that that's the only issue out there but it's certainly a big one today

I've mentioned that Appalachian Bible College while I don't believe they've taken a personal stand or a public stand against it

I do happen to know that in the faculty there is a concerted effort to hedge against social justice and so I mentioned things like this to you on the podcast but I wanted to add to this

I wanted to let you know about an option for homeschoolers especially I think called Bradford Christian College and this is not your brick -and -mortar institution this isn't something that you go to and you get socialization or you find your husband or wife a lot of people they want to go to college for those purposes this is something that I think would have been a great tool for me back when

I was probably 16 or 17 and I wasn't quite the age maybe to go to a brick -and -mortar school to go away to school but I was academically there and something like Bradford Christian College would have been great because it's an online school there against social justice

I know the people who run this institution and they have what's in my opinion the best of both worlds it's not strictly online academics where you have no relationship with your professor neither is that your brick -and -mortar classroom but it's a mentorship so you you actually meet with a mentor on a weekly bi -weekly basis or a regular basis and you're going to be learning as you're actually talking to a real flesh person who's coaching you and to me that that really is how education classically education was that way you had a teacher even through the medieval period it was that way even through the early parts of the

Enlightenment it was that way you find your teacher and you go and you try to be like your teacher this is the

Jewish way of learning too but we've we progressed or regressed to such a point that everything is just academic rote memorization and repetition which plays a part but it's not fully what an education should be in Bradford Christian College they believe in this biblical approach to education that which they believe includes mentorship and they're what they're trying to do is give you the kind of education that some of the founding fathers would have gotten in their era they want to assert the sovereignty of God acknowledge his hand in history restore biblical government they want to restore reasoning and they want to they hold to rigorous

Westminster standards they offer four -year degrees and through their affiliation with Lagos University they have accreditation and they the two degrees they offer a bachelor's of arts in Christian education about bachelors of arts in theological study so check them out you can go to Bradford Christian College comm or you can go to contact at Bradford Christian College comm to email them and ask questions and so I wanted to let you know about that and here's what their website looks like I should have had this pulled up while I was saying that it's

Bradford Christian College so make sure that that's the website you go to if you're watching Bradford Christian College comm now let us talk about the issue at hand which is evaluation discernment exercising discernment how do you know when you've done it right what kinds of principles do you use what grid do you put things through what questions do you ask these are the kinds of things that we want to talk about so I'm going to just show you the slideshow as we go through this and then we will start applying it so the

I want to take John MacArthur as one of the primary examples this is someone that people it's no secret that people know that I appreciate

John MacArthur's preaching and I have some of his commentaries I've doesn't mean

I agree with everything John MacArthur's ever said but I definitely have a respect for him and so I wouldn't put him in the category of the social justice teachers that I've I've gone after and so let's

I'm gonna start here and then we're gonna go through the biblical principles and we'll kind of circle back why do people generally like John MacArthur here's a question why do people generally like John MacArthur he's got a popular ministry why and after all think about this he's not necessarily the most sensational preacher is he

I can show you a lot of preachers who have more energy on the stage and they're jumping around and they're doing all kinds of things and flashy and that's not

John MacArthur John MacArthur is also an older man and in our day and age when youth is so prized what how come this older man is looked to as as such a role model

I think that's a good thing but it's out of step with our current cultural moment I guess he's also constantly attacked

I mean he's been attacked for decades and decades for all kinds of different things he's called every name under the sun he's just constantly attacked so why would you like someone who's just constantly attacked yeah here's here are some of the things that I think attract people to John MacArthur this is just these are my ideas here so this is could be subjective this is what

I think his personality is masculine at a time in which there is a leadership vacuum and evangelicalism that's true he is uncompromising and direct he's not wishy -washy he's not going to give you say one thing to one audience one thing to another audience he is a straight talker and people want that they want that solid rootedness that stability his character is stable he's he is honest he's sacrificial

I mean he's willing to bleed for the truth if need be he is willing to go to war with the government if need be and he leaves the results to God his theology is solid it doesn't mean that there aren't secondary issues that I might disagree with or others might disagree with but his theology is core of his theologies um when

I when I talk about that I'm talking about his his orthodoxy it is solid and he's accompanied by faithful preaching and many accessible resources so you have so many things so many resources that you can go online grace to you app and you can find these things and it's just so practical and available so I think these are the reasons people like John MacArthur I don't think that any of that's a secret right now there are two extremes on people who view

John MacArthur now you could apply this to many other teachers but I think John MacArthur is a good case of the an example of this and we don't want to be in either extreme that's why

I'm bringing this up I don't we don't want to be in either of these extremes because these these two extremes I think are are dangerous here's the first extreme okay

MacArthurites MacArthurites see MacArthur's teaching and that by the way I did not coin that term

I did not coin that term that is a term that's been around and I'm just using it using it for this podcast but MacArthur's teachings on primary and secondary issues are equally important okay

MacArthur's teachings on primary and secondary issues are equally important MacArthurite wouldn't see a difference really if John MacArthur said it it's true and it's equally important they see minor disagreements with MacArthur is threatening so if you disagree with you know one thing if you say let's say

John MacArthur says the Nephilim right these giants were formed when the sons of God which he takes to be demons impregnated the daughters of men now

I don't necessarily agree with that and I know a number of other godly theologians who do not agree with that they would take it as it's not a demonic line that's

Seth's line they'd say things reproduce after their kind and just because Job in the book of Job there's two or three places where the the same word for sons of God is translated as angels you can't import that necessarily into the

Genesis narrative now there are counter arguments for that that MacArthur would give but if someone disagrees about that issue that's not a primary issue

I don't even know if that's a secondary issue to be honest with you that is tertiary but a

MacArthurite would see that disagreement probably as a problem that if you disagree with John MacArthur here you're not being biblical or something

MacArthurites don't tend to admit when MacArthur has changed positions or made a mistake and MacArthur has changed positions he may not even notice it sometimes we all we don't but with the

COVID stuff I still remember I saw an interview with him and Phil Johnson and MacArthur was saying that we have to shut down and he's using

Romans 13 and and then it was a few months later he's saying Romans 13 doesn't mean that you have to obey the government when it comes to church -related matters there there was definitely an inconsistency when you put those two clips together and there and there's a few other

I'm trying to think his MacArthur's view of civil government has certainly changed I mean he's talked about how it really shouldn't matter who's in the

White House he's even said and I quote well I shouldn't say and I quote this is very close to a quote that I heard him say once and I'm pretty sure this is the quote where he said the church should not be involved in politics he said things like this and he said in when

I was there in 2012 that you know if he went to the only thing he expects from the government is that they keep him from getting shot on his way to church very against the religious right against Jerry Falwell and what he was trying to do and yet he supported

Trump and he thought that it was more Christian to vote for Trump he also especially more lately in the last few years

I think has transitioned to being more vocal about opposition to the

Democratic Party he's called them out he's gotten involved politically in ways that I think years ago he would have probably critiqued if someone else had done it and in circumstances change and that might be part of it and we do change with circumstances to some extent and so MacArthur in my my mind my thinking he's changed positions on some of these things he's

I'm pretty sure I've listened to stuff he said in the 70s about limited atonement and I've seen what he's written now in his newer theology and they don't jive so um he's changed some positions on some things guess what he hasn't changed on orthodox theology orthodox bible theology he's consistent but a

MacArthurite someone who really is looks to MacArthur for everything views MacArthur as like a final authority they would never admit that MacArthur's changed positions because he can't because to admit that would mean to admit that he's human that he doesn't have these non -communicable attributes that God possesses which is really what they're doing they're putting him on this pedestal and giving him semi -divine traits when when they start going down this path of MacArthur can say no wrong do no wrong.

MacArthurites also tend to confuse loyalty to MacArthur affiliated institutions with loyalty to MacArthur himself and loyalty to the gospel so in other words if you're critical of Master's University or you're critical of something that Grace Community Church did then that must reflect necessarily on MacArthur that's all it almost like MacArthur is intimately involved in every decision of these large organizations which is obviously impossible unless he was had divine like qualities and and then of course they

MacArthur's teaching is affiliated with the gospel that that you know he is to reject him is like to reject the gospel or to reject truth and so they just can't see that someone could be critical of something

Grace Community Church does or someone at the church does or a professor at Master's Seminary does and still like John MacArthur.

MacArthurites tend to they they take it it very personally and so in short MacArthurites have a blinding obsessive and idolizing tendency they have a blinding obsessive and idolizing tendency when it comes to John MacArthur okay and this isn't unique to John MacArthur this is

Tim Keller this is any big name any even small names can become this

I could become this and I hope I never do and please don't ever treat me like this just because John said it it must be true no do your own research

I'm gonna help but you know don't think that just because I said something

I'm the final authority or something I'm not the final authority you can have respect and you can think well John generally does his homework

I've listened to him I know he's he's tried to be consistent I think he's careful you can say all that but don't think that because I said it that means it's true just because I've said it that that being the only qualification so this isn't unique to John MacArthur but it's inevitable with any ministry or large large ministry like this you're gonna have people who think that way and sometimes it's for what would seem like good reasons like I got saved under his preaching and therefore

I just trust him right there's things like that and we can understand to some extent and I'll give you a story real quick here about when

I was actually you know what I'll save this story I was going to tell you a story about experience I had at masters seminary but I'll save it till the end and I got into it with a

MacArthurite like I really got into it with them so here's another group of people though here's the people with MacArthur derangement syndrome that's what

I and I did coin this term of course people apply this to like Trump derangement syndrome other things I'm just putting

MacArthur's name in there MacArthur derangement syndrome MDS they see MacArthur's teaching on primary and secondary issues as equally important so they agree with the

MacArthurites they just come to a different conclusion so if MacArthur gets something wrong on a secondary issue they question the whole ministry you know the whole thing must be burned down it's all bad so that they also don't have a sense of proportion on this number two they see minor agreements with MacArthur is threatening okay so whereas the

MacArthurites see minor disagreements with MacArthur is threatening threatening people with MacArthur derangement syndrome see minor agreements so if you agree with MacArthur on anything then that's a problem because everything

MacArthur said is bad you know MacArthur can't be just it there's no sense of proportion here either it's like if MacArthur said it it's it's questionable we should question anyone who would quote

MacArthur any association with MacArthur it it's it's all bad uh and then they tend to make people with MacArthur derangement syndrome they tend to only see when

MacArthur has changed positions or made a mistake so they don't see the consistency of years in ministry over a period of decades they can only see the places where MacArthur has stumbled or fallen in in minor ways and they use that to then color the rest of his ministry which is totally unfair but people with MacArthur derangement syndrome that's what they do and they also tend to confuse loyalty to the two institutions

MacArthur founded with loyalty to MacArthur and loyalty to the gospel so they're they're the flip side of MacArthurites they have no sense of proportion either they just everything's the opposite conclusion so uh if you have any loyalty to a professor or I don't know an institution

MacArthur founded or you you say anything good that's just like saying that MacArthur is you're you're equally uh extending that analysis to MacArthur himself you must endorse

MacArthur if you endorse any of those uh right and um and so and and for them loyalty to the gospel would be you have to reject

MacArthur you have to reject all these institutions and so if you don't fully reject then you are also uh cut from the same cloth as being this heretic or false teacher or problematic person that John MacArthur is all right so uh the long and short of it is people with MacArthur derangement syndrome are have a blind obsession with destroying

MacArthur they have a blind obsession with destroying MacArthur mostly because of what he represents so MacArthurites a blinding obsessive and idolizing tendency

MacArthur derangement syndrome a blind obsession with destroying MacArthur and these are two extremes that I've seen

I've seen them in the comments on my videos and the question that I have is how should we evaluate all right how should we evaluate and this isn't exhaustive but here's my my principles and then we're going to go through some scripture and why

I think this number one know your own limitations so when you're evaluating something know your own limitations ignorance is okay without information if you don't know you don't know and don't try to fill in the gaps with knowledge that you don't have consider the office is another thing know your limitations consider the office someone is holding what's their position what's their role do they really uh are they really in charge of things you know there's so many examples of this

I could give but you know think of something like the Freedom Center at Liberty University that just came to mind okay does the director of the

Freedom Center at Liberty University endorse everything that Liberty University ever put out well no because they have their role and the university has their role does that make sense uh

John MacArthur does John MacArthur does he have all knowledge of everything that's ever happened at his institutions probably not he's the head he's kind of and now he's he's older and he's probably has a lot of people doing taking on other responsibilities

I think he's chancellor now of the seminary he probably makes some important decisions but he's probably not intimately familiar with the inner workings and so something happens downstream from him he's not aware of is he to be held liable for that so consider the office know your own limitations ignorance is okay with without information consider the office number two be open to legitimate charges be open to legitimate charges so no one is above the law just because someone holds a high position does not mean that they aren't they should not be abiding by the law by God's law um also evaluate whether or not there's a pattern of behavior if someone says uh this this well thought of pastor has had a moral failure well no one is above the law if there's evidence no one's above the law you know the rule of law must apply here but if there's a behavior and there's no evidence or if it's so weak that it's just it's flimsy evidence then you need to put into your evaluation the pattern of behavior if that person has for decades been faithful to their wife and now they're being accused of uh having an affair but there really isn't evidence you need to take into account the behavior that they've exhibited over the course of a lifetime so is it in character for them that's that's a legitimate question also uh confirm two or three witnesses you need lines of evidence to confirm things whether to be true they're true or not uh reject illegitimate charges number three reject illegitimate charges test witnesses identify slanderers so just because someone says something doesn't necessarily mean it's true i think apply uh evaluation apply logic and reason and test witnesses that come forward get their full story see if it adds up see if it if there's other stories if the the testimony conflicts um and if they're slanderers if someone is a confirmed slanderer especially if they have a pattern of it then don't take their opinion seriously when they start testifying that someone's in sin and they have a habit of doing this kind of thing so reject illegitimate charges okay so be open to legitimate charges but reject illegitimate charges number four have a sense of proportion so character issues false teaching all the issues that someone could be accused of have a sense of proportion what's actually important and what's not and i'll give you some examples later on about this i'm reminded of a joke page patterson told that really got him in trouble a few years ago and it was a joke that he had told like two decades before that was caught on video and i remember thinking and he apologized for it but i remember thinking well you know it maybe not in best taste but i when i watched it i remember just think transporting myself into the world that page patterson was likely in and the audience he was likely talking to and i thought well you know it's you know you kind of apologize move on it's a little off color but it's not like a uh it's not false teaching he's not corrupting the gospel here and people were acting as if it was on that level and so have a sense of proportion how important really is it we all if we're gonna speak if i have a podcast i'm gonna say some dumb things sometimes okay hopefully not too dumb but i might say some things that are off i might misspeak in fact last week i misspoke on something i mentioned someone's name and i attributed the wrong name to something that i was talking about i corrected it but we all have those uh those oops those mistakes and we have to be able to triage to evaluate uh whether or not those are as important as some primary theological issues and then uh number five consider possibilities consider ulterior motives if someone's motives are being questioned consider what the possibility is are there other motives that could account for the behavior that's being exhibited or does it have to be necessarily this bad motivation okay um think try to get an accurate reading it doesn't mean you charitably read i don't believe in that in the sense that we just bend over backwards to try to attribute some good motivation to a christian leader when the options really don't seem to point that direction it doesn't the evidence doesn't point that direction i would say give an accurate reading but at least consider if there are other readings and i'm thinking of of uh there's actually right now there's there's a situation that i don't i i'm not gonna get the details on it but it basically it's um that certain teachers it's multiple teachers that their motives are they're subverting evangelicalism even though they are uh repenting of things they previously taught that were wrong even though they're um undoing damage that they once did even though uh what they're saying is consistent with biblical teaching there's got to be this ulterior motive that they're really subverting because in the past they might have done or said something that wasn't wise well that's ridiculous no uh it's okay to believe what your eyes are seeing and when you're seeing that someone is in line with the truth repentant about false teaching it's fine to take them for their word and so anyway consider the possibilities there may be a possibility that makes more sense that it isn't the worst thing in the world that they've that their motives are horrible so let's go through each of these individually number one know your limitations know your own limitations ignorance is okay without information and i put the uh the verse here and i'll make the slideshow available to all the patrons out there link will be in the info section but first kings three has a whole section where king solomon is the wisest man and he judges between two women who accuse each other but um they are saying a child dies i'm trying to give you a brief account of this so our podcast isn't long but one of their child is dead and then they start accusing the other one or saying that she's trying to take my baby you know the baby that's left is is mine and so they're both claiming ownership over a child and how are you going to adjudicate that now today you could do a dna test not back then so solomon um knew his own limitations he didn't arbitrarily just say well it's it's yours he actually uh very shrewdly created a test and the test was let's divide the baby up and so the rightful mother would rather have her child raised by someone else than to have her child killed and the mother who wasn't the rightful mother or the the woman who wasn't the rightful mother did not care about that as much and so that was how he figured it out but he only figured it out because he knew his limitations he knew that there was knowledge that he didn't have and he needed to create this test to figure the problem out and so we should know our limitations when we're approaching something that's especially a difficult situation like that if we don't know if we're in ignorance we shouldn't claim to know consider the office so pastor's character should be tested before receiving an office there's qualifications in scripture for the character of an elder right so that should be already in place sometimes that process gets short -changed it doesn't actually happen and that's wrong that needs to happen somewhere along the line but this does not apply to some parachurch ministry leaders unfortunately today uh and well fortunately too also to some extent there's there's certainly a place obviously this podcast right i am not uh an elder at my church currently and um and i i think i will be one day but right now that's not i i'm busy with a lot of other things and it's something that i think is worth pursuing but right this second that's not where i'm at and so uh you know i don't have the same the same standard let's say has not been applied to me by the people who know me intimately at my church as a standard that the pastor would have to abide by so uh so i think considering the office is going to make you consider whether there is a vetting process that's taken place and what that vetting process may look like those are things to consider uh and this is part of knowing your own limitations uh that you know if you are limited and not knowing someone you know what do you know about them what kinds of things have they gone through to prove themselves to test their character that kind of thing you know if it's a situation like i said before that they don't have purview over or they have ignorance on or they weren't there for how accountable are they these are questions that must be asked and and so know your limitations do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses first timothy 519 uh paul said uh to the high priest he says i after he called him a whitewashed wall he said i was not aware brethren that he was the high priest for it is written you shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people acts 23 5 be careful be careful by about jumping to conclusions know your limitations number two uh openness have an openness to legitimate charges well why should you be open to legitimate charges well no one is above the law there's a lot of bible verses we could have put more leviticus 19 15 you shall do no injustice in judgment you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great but you are to judge your neighbor fairly galatians 2 but when cephas came to antioch i opposed him to his face because he stood condemned so that was an apostle that was it's a possible to even confront an apostle when there's false teaching second samuel 12 uh nathan then said to david you are the man thus says the lord of god it is i who anointed you king over israel it is i who deliver you from the hand of saul ultimately we're all accountable to god and that's why no one is above the law nathan could go to david the king and hold act 17 uh the bereans tested paul to see if what he said as an apostle was so they were they were able to compare it to the truth that they already had and there wasn't anything wrong with it paul commended them matthew 7 beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves so while we need to know our limitations we also need to know that there are subversives out there there are people coming in in sheep's clothing they look on the outside like they're legitimate and you gotta do some digging and what does it say you'll know them by their fruits so what kind of fruit are they producing so have an openness to legitimate charges no one is above the law uh there is there a pattern of behavior check to see if there's a pattern of behavior luke 16 10 he was faithful and very little is faithful and much uh first peter 3 keep a good conscience so that in the thing which you are slandered those who disparage your good behavior in christ will be put to shame so the old testament requires two or three witnesses as a standard for proof and as you live in a community and people know you you're going to form a reputation and it's going to be based on a number of circumstances and so that begin becomes your reputation in the community and and that reputation needs to be factored in you know why does this person have a reputation sometimes people get an undeserved reputation no one really knows them they just like the way that they make them feel they uh they only see a a side of them that just isn't accurate and so you have to evaluate that you know the people that know this person closely what's their family life like i i i know a situation uh where there there was a pastor and i was a little closer to the situation but there was a pastor who looked from the pulpit like he had it all together and his family was a mess and one of the reasons i think that he didn't have a lot of contact with most of the people in the church they just didn't know him all they knew is what they saw on a sunday morning or a bible study maybe and when you're there especially if you're there alone and your family's not there you're able to you're able to pull it off to to give a face that's why it's important to have a house manage a household right people need to see how you manage your household which means they need to have some knowledge of your household in order to evaluate that number three reject illegitimate charges in other words test witnesses deuteronomy 19 if a malicious witness rises up against a man to accuse him of wrongdoing then both the men who have the dispute shall stand before the lord before the priests and the judges will be in the office in those days the judges shall investigate thoroughly and if the witness is a false witness and he has accused his brother falsely then you shall do to him as he had intended to do to his brother so test witnesses just because someone says something doesn't mean it's not it's true identify slanderers you shall not go about as a slanderer among your people leviticus 19 uh proverbs 20 he who goes about as a slanderer reveals secrets therefore do not associate with a gossip proverbs 22 drive out the scoffer and contention will go out even strife and dishonor will cease and then titus 3 says reject a divisive person after a first and second warning and so here's the bottom line if someone enjoys and is characterized by causing unnecessary conflicts or promoting lies reject them you need to hear me say this very clearly if someone and this this applies to those who are who claim to be sometimes doing what what i try to do on this podcast and others uh like people like ad robles are trying to do they they want to be part of that they they think that they're doing that but if they enjoy um causing and are characterized by causing unnecessary conflicts right doesn't mean that they can't have a cheerful disposition that's not what i'm talking about i'm saying if they just really get a buzz when they're they thrive on conflict they want conflict they live around conflict and chaos and and they want to cause more of it and so they separate friends they say things to one person and one thing to another person i know several even in the conservative groups that uh you you would think conservative evangelicals against social justice man this is more than it should be it really is and um and i've learned to some extent you know i think i've been naive to some extent and i've uh probably done things wrong at times i've said things to people that i realized later i shouldn't have said that you know and and my motive wasn't to necessarily rip someone down but maybe just maybe it felt a little good you know it felt like you know hey i'm better we're better than that person well if you're characterized by that you're a you're a scoffer you're a slanderer you're a gossip any of these things and you want to cause conflicts and you promote lies to do it man reject that person i'm telling you reject that person who who does these things and is characterized by them and bring strife between brothers unnecessarily so reject illegitimate charges and then apply a sense of proportion apply a sense of proportion so was there repentance and i spelled there wrong ha well i'll correct that in the slideshow uh there's there there and there and i uh classic mistake i don't know if it was autocorrect well was there repentance jesus said to him i do not say to you up to seven times but up to 70 times 7 matthew 18 forgive your brother or your sister if there's repentance don't hold them accountable for sins that they've repented for there's might be legal accountability there but there's not you don't now color them with that same shade on character issues um ephesians 5 talks about don't participate in unfruitful deeds of darkness and instead expose them now how does this happen um because it's disgraceful the thing about to talk about the things which are done by them in secret all things become visible when they're exposed to the light for everything that becomes visible as light so i think ephesians 5 is mainly talking about setting a good example you expose the evil deeds of darkness um by shining your light by living in a godly way but the comparison is going to uh pulse teachers or people character issues aren't going to want to be around you for that reason but philippians 1 says this uh some to be sure preaching christ even from enby and stripe but some also from goodwill the latter do it out of love knowing that my i'm appointed for the defense of the gospel the former proclaim christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives thinking that they are causing me distress in my imprisonment what then only that in every way whether in pretense or truth christ is proclaiming in this i rejoice those are just some verses that came to mind when i was thinking of character issues so there are people with character issues that you can basically say you know what i'm not going to get into the weeds on this they might have a bad motive they might have a bad reason for preaching the gospel but guess what they're preaching the gospel um there are other character issues though evil deeds of darkness that needs to be exposed unfruitful deeds of darkness and oftentimes character issues accompany false teaching there's a requirement in scripture like i said in titus you can go look it up for elders and deacons and what they are required to be in order to hold those offices and so character is important and if someone falls short they shouldn't be in those offices so if you're especially looking at a pastor that becomes very important and so i'm grateful that some pastors you know they do step down when it becomes obvious that there's an issue um i know like you know even recently and i don't know the full details on everything but when you have someone who's addicted to medication who's misusing medication and the scripture says to not be addicted to wine um and i'm talking about jd hall in this context and he's not a pastor he doesn't hold that office he stepped down he's not part of that so that that's the right thing to do um but if someone refuses to do that then and they don't meet the qualifications then um the standard has to be applied all right on doctrinal issues in my opinion doctrinal issues are more uh they're i mean character issues are important doctrinal issues though i mean we're talking about your eternal soul here okay and um second timothy four says i solemnly exhort you in the presence of god and of christ jesus who's the judge of the living and the dead by appearing by his appearing in his kingdom preach the word be ready in season and out of season correct rebuke and exhort with great patience and instruction with great patience and instruction uh correct rebuke exhort resist the proud you've graced the humble i'm thinking about other verses are coming to my mind now um you know encourage the faint -hearted um help the weak admonish the unruly i think i got that backwards but uh there's whether it's character or doctrinal issues there are play is a place for confrontation on doctrinal issues though just know that you're dealing with something that has eternal significance if it's a primary doctrinal issue and that is very very very important um balancing idolizing men with respecting them so apply a sense of proportion by balancing idolizing men with respecting them paul says in first corinthians three for when one says i am a paul and another i am apollos are you not mere men just remember john macarthur's a mere man bode bachum's a mere man okay love these brothers they're mere men uh same thing with whoever your favorite teacher is they're mere men and that's actually a comforting thing and people who are are humble don't get upset when you say things like that because they'll say it they'll say yeah i'm a man i'm a man yeah it doesn't mean i don't have respect i haven't worked hard and people don't you know see that god's done a work in me but i'm still a man and it's still the lord jesus christ who has made me whatever good is in me he has put there and then ask yourself was it a huge deal was it a huge deal what just happened or what people are trying to cancel someone over getting mad and up in arms about i think of mark ii where the pharisees they do this kind of thing a lot they condemn jesus right and they say basically like you're picking heads of grain on the sabbath and this isn't lawful and jesus says have you never read what david did when he was in the need and he and his companions became hungry how he went to abi athar the the high priest and ate consecrated bread and it's not lawful except for the priest and yet he did it and jesus said to them the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath so the son of man is lord even of the sabbath and so this is the pharisees classic where they would they would try they wouldn't understand the point of a law they couldn't think in those terms or if they did they didn't want to and they would sift at gnats and swallow camels the weightier matters of the law did not matter to them and so that's another thing you got to consider where you're really going to condemn a guy for and i'll use the example again page patterson for telling a joke that was a bit off color years ago that he apologized for and you know and i don't want to get into the details of the joke because it's irrelevant for this would i have told that joke no but it's uh really we're gonna go after that well it was clearly a tactic to take something from 20 years previous from a man who grew up who's older who grew up uh you know in the 1950s you know and in 60s and he's still operating a little bit on the the social standards that existed at that point and in the south presumably as well which um this i've explained this before on the podcast but you're gonna see a difference it's it's starting to erase but between the north and south generally there has been a difference where southern culture was able to hold on longer to chivalry and manners and there was more of a separation between sexuality and just being complimentary someone could as an older man they could it was possible at least it were accepted in the society to have what we would consider today to be flirtation they could compliment they could say certain things even commenting on a woman's looks at times and it was not considered sexual now everything's sexual and so page patterson is coming from that time period and he makes a comment uh about i think see i said i wasn't in the details now i am i think the comment he made was something about uh that how good looking a girl was or something to some young boys and how they were looking at a really good looking girl and it was whatever he had said i can't remember the details was just uh it was so many people today were offended in the me too generation well he's not from that generation and so it's you know it wasn't a huge deal no it really wasn't but it was used to cancel and that's what i'm talking about um that kind of thing so so here's the grid in my opinion here's the grid and so what what can we do now i'm gonna start talking about we're gonna talk about maybe a few teachers here and i don't know exactly where this is all gonna go but i think it should be fun uh and and hopefully uh helpful so let's let's do this let's talk a little bit about uh john macarthur first and and i'll we'll go through this grid we'll use this grid as our template so how should we evaluate john macarthur and his ministry all right we have limited knowledge we don't know everything that's gone through macarthur said we don't know everything that's happened in his office we don't know everything that's been said at grace community church or the master seminary how do we in our limited information and everyone's limited by the way how do we evaluate someone like john macarthur well first we got to know our limitations and i just told you a few of them we don't know what we don't know so ignorance is okay without information now if someone comes out and says this is how macarthur is macarthur is he's covering for abuse macarthur is uh he's really just racist macarthur is i'm trying to think of all the accusations he's denies the work of the holy spirit you know etc when when someone comes out we can evaluate the claim but we don't know what we don't know so if someone's giving us information that we cannot verify uh with someone let's say whose reputation we ourselves don't really know anything about and which i think is often the case with these uh some of the critiques against macarthur especially someone let's say it's someone who has a track record of saying half truths or just misleading things about macarthur then you're not obligated to believe it it doesn't mean that doesn't mean that what they're saying isn't true it just means you don't have an obligation to believe it and that must be said doesn't mean that what they're saying isn't true but you don't have necessarily the warrant or the responsibility to believe them just because they're saying it if they don't have evidence that they can't back it up so that's part of knowing your limitations consider the office john macarthur doesn't everything that happens at his school or his schools plural or his church or grace to you he doesn't he's not in all those offices all the time he's not omniscient and so i wouldn't hold him accountable for every little thing that happens he probably doesn't know most of the things that actually happen in the industry that is surrounding him i'll give you i'll be a little bit um autobiographical with this as well i did go to the master's seminary for one semester and i attended grace community church for about a year i lived in california for a little bit if you added it up it was probably about a year and so i i've gotten to see my my uncle's actually a member there now my my parents actually met there my dad was a leader in the college career group there so i mean we have an association to some extent with grace community church and you know i've been to shepherd's conference many times and i have a lot of respect for john macarthur i i've used a lot of material you could say this is part of even my childhood was listening to some john macarthur stuff and i could see though when i went that the master's seminary is not a perfect place surprise surprise right it's not a perfect place let me give you some of the negative things and this isn't meant to every seminary every institutional place has these things it's unavoidable that you're going to have some things some of them could even be serious but it's not it's not something that you can always hedge against we as individuals i myself am going to have my own weaknesses and the way i run my house i'm going to have weaknesses and that's why it's good that godly men can point them out at times but i found the master seminary to be they wanted to be biblical they they you know what you were going to be taught i appreciated that uh they don't have uh they they try to really hedge against at least when i was there higher criticism um modernist or post -modernist ideas they want to equip men for ministry and i think that is the heart behind the master seminary primarily and there's some great people that have come out of there but i would say this and this is one of the reasons that i there was a couple reasons i didn't end up continuing one of them is at the time in california i really couldn't find a good job but but there was other things too i found that there was a culture there of rigidity to some extent it was very hard to explore ideas that were not in lockstep with the seminary and for me at the time that was eschatology i really wanted to look into some other views of eschatology and i was told in orientation that you know basically nothing against you if you have a different eschatology but we'll recommend another school for you here at great at master seminary we're dispensational pre -millennialists that's what we believe and questioning that at least you know you could you could explore to some extent but you it was it was hard to know where the lines were where the boundaries were and so i just didn't feel that academic freedom to explore and i was confused about it and that was one of the reasons i went from the frying pan into the fryer right i i eventually transferred into southeastern thinking like oh i can explore that stuff here and it was like so broad that i'm like oh wow the marxism is coming in okay you know so uh i i got to grow up a little when uh you know because i was kind of critical at the time and you know and i still think you know it's kind of rigid but now i'm like well there is an opposite end that is harmful um and of course southeastern is very rigid on social justice matters many of them so it's they have their own rigidities in their own areas but anyway uh i didn't like the church politics and any big institution is going to have them but it definitely is at grace community church there's no doubt about it it's a big institution there's going to be church politics involved and sometimes those can get nasty i remember once and i told you i'd tell the story i had an argument with what i would consider to be a macarthurite and i i remember i was i was the argument was whether the scripture was the final authority or john macarthur was the final authority i kid you not is with this fellow seminary student and the seminary student said to me and i kid you not quote well everything john macarthur says about the bible is true unquote and i almost lost it because i said if macarthur was with us right now macarthur would be correcting you he doesn't believe that about himself by any stretch and this is this has to be rejected this is how cults form if and fortunately macarthur doesn't believe that but if he did believe it about himself you'd have guys like this following everything that he says and and so there are people like that they do exist i used to be skeptical about that then i saw with my own two eyes there are some people it's a minority but there are people who believe that um you know and i remember when i uh when the video video i put put out there like back in march um when i was extending the benefit of the doubt to macarthur on some some things like um uh you know church size um and it maybe it wasn't good for john macarthur to do church discipline to exercise that when he doesn't know the person he's disciplining intimately um i kind of was critical but i was trying to also say look i i don't know exactly what the inner workings of this were this is just how it you know i have limitations there were people jumping down my throat for that and so i'm just telling you i've seen it even in the comments there are some people like that out there and so um you know there are things that that i disagree with uh john macarthur on so i am open to that's the second point here i know my limitations i'm not in the room i don't see everything macarthur's doing but i also am open to legitimate charges i remember when i was a student there and i don't know if anyone has done it on this issue since then but macarthur had preached a whole sermon in fact i think he said in a number of sermons he talked about how the religion of the anti -christ was islam he was sure about it and i just thought this isn't in scripture though i can't just and his his reasoning was that look at the parallels between islamic eschatology and biblical eschatology they're just inverted islamic eschatology has any you know their anti -christ is our christ etc and i just thought this isn't biblical and so in front of the whole student body they macarthur spoke at chapel and they took questions and i remember i got up and i asked i said where are you finding this in scripture i don't see it there basically so where is this in the bible i understand you're seeing parallels but where is this in the bible and of course he didn't really have an answer to it at the time he just kind of went over those parallels again and it may be that he's right that that is the religion of the anti -christ i haven't heard him say anything about like that since then maybe that's still his position but i was able to look at that and say okay i'm open to a legitimate charge here i'm open to a legitimate charge no one is above the law uh and um is there a pattern of behavior with macarthur saying this stuff i don't think there is i don't think macarthur just does that kind of thing um and everyone heard it two or three witnesses everyone heard it was in a public sermon so i think it's fair game yeah i'm gonna challenge that and i did and i challenged it to him directly and he was gracious enough and it was a very gracious conversation but it wasn't a primary theological issue this was a secondary thing guys and i really hope that some of you can can understand that there are this isn't and i'll go through keller or someone else that's actually has some false teaching this isn't like that this is just hey that doesn't seem like a biblical approach like let's let's not bring in an authority that's not scripture to talk to then interpret scripture uh on this particular matter when scripture you know it's just it doesn't it's not clear we don't have revelation outside of scripture on some of these issues so um anyways i am open to legitimate charges and um so if i ran the seminary or grace community church i'd do much worse than john macarthur guaranteed and and i did and i need to say i did have i did make some friends when i was at master seminary my conflict resolution class was great it really has helped me through things since that time i appreciate phil johnson i appreciate john macarthur to me actually phil johnson i want to say this he has a great sense of priority and helps direct good questions and i think help he helps focus macarthur in my mind when he asked when he does these panels or q a sessions and he asked macarthur relevant questions i would call him a bulldog for the truth uh he you know his wheelhouse though is grace grace to you um it's not the seminary it's not the master's um university it's not grace community church it's grace to you and i don't conflate those things and so if something happens at the master seminary that i don't agree with and they're saying that you have to be premill dispensational and though you know you can't question or whatever if someone if i heard things like that which i kind of did uh i'm not saying that that's phil johnson's department right so i'm able to to go back to our point one here um i'm able to know my limitations i'm able to know my limitations and i'm able to um in that consider the office and the office that phil johnson has isn't isn't that so i'm just picking uh things just come as thoughts come into my mind about it i'm trying to find them on the grid here um so other things let's see what else can we talk about here uh reject illegitimate charges let's go to the next one reject illegitimate charges okay so uh test witnesses identify slanderers reject illegitimate charges there's been a lot of charges against john mccarthur a lot oh my goodness when i was even there for the limited time i was there i remember protesters coming on the campus of grace community church accusing john mccarthur of being soft on pro -life if you can believe that he's not really pro -life uh i got into a whole conversation with one of them and i'm like what are you doing here like he is pro -life he said he's pro -life he he's against abortion it's like he's not doing enough um and obviously this was a uh this was an illegitimate charge and that's what i did i tried to go out and test the witnesses uh and then i identified these guys are slanderers they're just that's what they are they're they're not um because he's not doing it exactly the way that they think it should be done it wasn't a biblical test that they were invoking it was some kind of high pharisaical test they had developed i remember um one time i was there and there was a guy on campus who had a big swastika and the police were there and he was saying that mccarthur's position is that you should submit to adolf hitler okay and so i i looked into it i looked into mccarthur's view on politics and i could understand how he got there because mccarthur you know said things like he thought the american revolution was wrong we should submit to government etc however mccarthur has never come out and said that we should submit to hitler or that it was right to submit to the nazis at least from my knowledge i was not able to find that and it's very possible that mccarthur a more accurate thing to say is mccarthur's logic at least the logic he once had could lead someone to believe that it would be fine to submit to the nazis and whatever that meant what you can't do though is say john mccarthur just believes you should submit to nazis which is what they were trying to do and so i was able to test these folks and realize these are illegitimate charges okay uh so have a sense of proportion have a sense of proportion that's the next one um you know nothing here so far has been like false teaching nothing has been uh you know issues of uh even the some of the character stuff that i've talked about i've demonstrated i think that we don't have the warrant to say mccarthur knowingly supports any of these deviant behaviors or anything like that um have a sense of proportion character issues false teaching um some things that i would say i am frustrated about or i disagree with concerning grace community church i'm frustrated over the or john mccarthur's ministries etc i'm frustrated over the church not issuing statements on some of the things they've been attacked over i kind of wish that the church would do some of that i understand they you know they may have reasons i'm not aware of them so i know my limitations but it frustrates me is that a primary issue no it's not it's not a primary issue um i am frustrated sometimes that you know by things i've already mentioned like some of the internal politics that can happen and things like that um some accusations though against john mccarthur are just so beyond the pale that someone needs to say something and if they won't i will it's because it's bigger than mccarthur i'm it's not about defending john mccarthur it's about defending the truth and some of the recent attacks against john mccarthur have been against his character that there's serious charges here um that you know it's not mistakes that he's made it's not secondary issues it's not that mccarthur had an oops it's that mccarthur is intrinsically a supporter of abuse mccarthur intrinsically is a racist mccarthur intrinsically um is promotes heresy of some kind and some of these charges and i've looked into the ones that people have sent me i just don't find evidence for it's just and and sometimes it's things that i'm like well mccarthur even if mccarthur was involved in some tangential way or some related way to a situation he didn't see the full picture and he wasn't endorsing a sinful behavior and so a little bit of nuance just a little bit of discernment and discretion i think takes away at least all the accusations that i've had the time to read takes the sting away that would say mccarthur is like a knowing supporter of something evil so um so that's where i i think having a sense of proportion comes in and i've never found any false teaching with john mccarthur i found things that you know hey i've taken three more steps you could see someone going in that direction maybe but i've never john mccarthur is he's an orthodox theologian and then consider possibilities now and this one doesn't really i don't even know how to apply this to the situation um i i think i think the bottom line is john mccarthur has some accountability to what extent i don't know but i've sat in on on elders meetings there so i have some bit of a knowledge of grace community church and there is accountability there there is possibility for disagreements there and people saying hey hey you know john i don't know if you're right about this that can happen um i don't think taking down a pastor should be enjoyable i think it should be sad if you're going to do it and i think mccarthur is more concerned with defending the truth than himself ultimately someone who has that kind of character it should not be enjoyable to take them down in that same with that same spirit i want to use this grid that you're all looking at right now and i want to talk about some other teachers so that's john mccarthur i'm going to put a cap on it i guess that's john mccarthur are there things that frustrate me are there things that i've seen probably because of my proximity because i've been a little closer in some things sure sure there are things associated with those ministries that i've seen guess what they're humans and guess what there's mccarthurites who drive me nuts yes i've seen that but i i'm not willing to go where some of the harsh critics have gone lately where they really want to just cancel mccarthur um and i've talked about it on this show and that's why i've been defensive i'm defensive of the truth it's not even necessarily about being defensive of mccarthur uh not out to just defend mccarthur i'm about to defend the truth and when you rip down someone for you know what was one of the hits on him was he's this horrible christian nationalist and i'm like let's let's show you all the quotes of john mccarthur being critical of the religious right and i just put the montage out there um you know i knew that was incorrect i knew that was an attempt at slandering i knew that was wrong so um let's let's talk about people that i i've criticized though that i've i've had critical thoughts for uh and and who should we pick let's think let's do uh let's do tim keller and i'll just be brief with it off the top of my head all right number one how should we evaluate tim keller know your limitations my limitations are i'm not as in close proximity to tim keller as i have been with john mccarthur so i have more limitations with tim keller a lot more ignorance about what goes on at his church i've never been there i know people who have um a lot more ignorance about what you know how he governs his family or how he's perceived by others who know him intimately i do consider his office i do think that you know tim keller has an empire and tim keller has you know formed or founded the gospel coalition with d .a

carson he's i mean he's got his own church planning network i believe he's got he's got some the city to city network there's so many things he's got his hands in though i i don't even know all of them and i wouldn't hold him accountable for every single thing that's and i and i don't think i have on this podcast at all i i don't read the gospel coalition and say well look at that article how bad it was written by jonathan leeman well tim keller's terrible you know i don't do that i might say that well tim keller's philosophy you can see that this is consistent with that but i won't say tim keller's directly responsible for something that he's not uh so okay so know your limitations uh be open to legitimate charges and so i am with tim keller and i think there are some legitimate charges so tim keller does have a pattern of behavior i put out a video and actually i've written on this about tim keller's political leftism since he was in college through the present and i've talked about uh how he's always been a leftist he's a registered democrat today even but he's always been a leftist and even his entry into christianity was listening to this sermon by um now i'm trying to remember the guy's name it's on the tip of my tongue tom skinner at urbana i believe 70 and it was all it was it was heretical it was mixing long grace and and it was that we have an incomplete gospel if it's just personal salvation because we have to we have to go and and do this anti -racist work it was critical race theory before critical race theory and keller says basically i listened to that sermon over and over and that's what formed me that's what is so attractive to me to christianity it was formative in my early christian life and then and i've talked about how harvey kahn and how l i think was elward ellis and and some of these figures had a profound impact on tim keller his hermeneutic which ends up being post -modern his um uh his approach to text contextualization which ends up being post -modern his uh his belief his view of sin and what sin is and and how even white privilege uh is part of this that you can be guilty of a sin that you're just passively you could literally be born a white baby and you're guilty of some some kind of a systemic abuse of some kind that you need to to do something about you have a privilege accruing to you and even when you become a christian you could you know go to the blood of jesus that you still have this issue keller um in addition to some of his social justice teachings and post -modern teachings uh he has a less than orthodox view of hell and this is stuff we're going to be covering in future episodes um of uh so of divine judgment he's less than orthodox view of sin um he has uh in fact i don't have the book in front of me there's there's like seven or six or seven things that he believes that are not in line with orthodox theology and a few of them are at least i would i would put keller in the the false teaching category so these are things i've looked into and i'm open to legitimate charges and guess what i have all the quotations i've been able to read them in context in his sermons i've been able to listen i've been able to see and it's after a lot of work that i say yes i can say unequivocally i do believe keller has promoted false teaching is promoting false teaching is characterized by that because there's a pattern there and this is confirmed by more than two or three witnesses this is confirmed by anyone who's ever heard his publicly available teachings so that's it's on that basis that i make these statements it's not on some secret thing that tim keller did or something he thought that he probably it's not like some of the weak things i've heard leveled sometimes even against john macarthur where you know he must have been thinking this when he did that well i'm not doing that with keller i'm saying this is what he said now with with keller reject illegitimate charges and guess what i have seen some illegitimate charges leveled against tim keller uh sometimes simplistic charges against tim keller um that he's i'll give you one of them one of the charges that has been leveled against tim keller i've heard this a number of times is that he is basically a stooge for the world economic forum and is it possible that tim keller is it is i will admit to you that is possible but guess what i don't have evidence of it i don't have the evidence for it all i've had is people telling me uh well look he he was uh you know he he showed up at the world economic forum office or something he's you know there or he was at a meeting supposedly these are the kinds of things that i get but it doesn't mean that he's controlled by them it doesn't mean he's necessarily implementing their full agenda it doesn't i don't know it's possible and i would say i think it's fair to say especially as a historian we like to say things like this it is fair to say in the globalist world in which we live that tim keller is making a contribution to pushing the needle towards globalism i think you can probably say that his whole model for urban contextualization is that it definitely pushes that needle but that doesn't mean that he's a stooge for wef okay or that he's all on board with a great reset so um have a sense of proportion character issues and false teaching i've never gone after tim keller for character issues never said he's lied never and i think there are people who probably think that about tim keller just a horrible character and his motives are all nefarious and uh i think he he is i think his motives are bad in the sense that i think he is he probably he probably thinks he's promoting something true but i think he is promoting false things and i think that at least there's been enough out there for me to conclude that he thinks the good he's doing is going to be that it somehow attracts people to christianity that it's going to be attractional by soft peddling things like even his uh his uh living out church audit that tim keller helped roll out i mean it's it's trying to make things more comfortable for homosexuals who come to your church and that's in his motive and he probably say that's a good motive and that's so there's a sort of a seeker sensitive thing going on there even though he'd reject the 90s model of seeker sensitivity he's got this winsomeness thing and i don't think that's a good motive but i don't think that that is a that that proves that he's lying or nefarious or that he's uh he's knowingly necessarily pushing all this evil and he can see it for himself i don't i don't have any evidence that that's true um now sometimes you could say a guy as smart as him how could he not know i get it but i'm not going to go where i don't have uh evidence to go so uh have a sense of proportion um it's false teaching and that's in my mind that's the worst and then consider the possibilities are there could there be good motives and i kind of went through that could there be good motives for what tim keller is doing and uh i suppose but as good as they are it's still false teaching at the end of the day so that's tim keller and we can do this we can do this all day with a number of teachers let me let me just say this actually yeah we'll just we'll kind of wrap it up because it's been we've been going really long if there's a teacher i don't know about and i know one thing i know one thing about them they promoted a false teaching that's enough for me to say warning hopefully they repent of it that's enough for me to say warning though um if i had no had no knowledge of a false teacher and someone tells me that they promoted the false teaching but i haven't looked into it i don't see it and it's someone that i don't necessarily even know or trust i don't just jump on the bandwagon and say well yeah they're a false teacher too and i feel good because i'm not that and they are i don't do that i don't think we should do that either i don't think it's a christian thing to do and uh so that's hopefully helpful for all of you in evaluating um good and bad teachers this is how i approach it on this podcast this is why i think some of you listen to this podcast because you know you're going to get chapter and verse when i start evaluating i don't want to just put stuff out there and hope it'll stick and uh so there you go uh god bless i want to say in closing someone who is not a false teacher someone who is uh truly in my mind uh a hero uh for our time and that's russell fuller um he is going to be at the men's retreat october 28th through the 30th in the adirondacks uh in new york speculator new york please consider coming and it's old school it's old school you pay through sending a check the address is right there you can go to the link in the info section on this video but it's going to be a great time and uh right now um we probably have uh it there's confirmed 44 people but i think it's going to be more i think we already it's probably over 50 at least by now so you're going to want to make sure you can confirm before the beginning of october at least i would say the sooner the better and um and it's just going to be an awesome time and there's people coming from the midwest from the south from flying into albany flying into new york and i'm busy helping connect people who need rides uh you can email me by the way if uh please don't don't use this for for stuff i i may not reply to you if if it's unrelated stuff but if you really need uh to find a ride and you've had trouble feel free to email me jonathanharris1989 at gmail .com