Hijacking the Scriptures Part III: The Romans 9 Debate - Rightly Dividing the Word?

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My very first jumbo show today as I continue my review of James' debate with Prof. Leighton Flowers on Romans 9. James gets more time today and gives a clinic in 'rightly dividing.' Sadly we will see more misrepresentations from Mr. Flowers as he uses verses out of context and in one case we see where he ended the verse early. Rich

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And welcome to the dividing line my name is Rich Pierce, and I'm once again sitting in for dr White today as we continue our review of the
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Romans 9 debate Boy, I tell you run both sides this This equation is is very stressful
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YouTube. I don't even know right now whether or not YouTube is behaving I'm praying that it is stabilized, but it took me four or five shots at Connecting up to YouTube today
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And I'm just hoping that we actually have a live stream on YouTube if we don't if it's hiccuping on you
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I apologize for that I will Upload the recording version recorded version of this later on if that's what it comes to but I'm really hoping that it doesn't so Just a word of reminder
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We've been taking a look at the Romans 9 debate between dr. White and Leighton flowers of Dallas Baptist University from last
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May and We've actually only gotten into a very short portion of this although we're 15 minutes into my version of this video
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We have another I believe 20 to go and I've got to get through all of that today so time is very limited for me and But at the same time we'll probably be playing larger segments of this as professor flowers has now fully stood up his
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Alternate narrative in opposition to the narrative given by the
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Apostle Paul in Romans 9 I want to remind you of our charge our charge is that is from 2nd
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Timothy 215 and That we are to accurately handle the word of truth It's pretty simple it's pretty straightforward
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We are to take an honest evaluation of the word as it comes to us. And as I said in the beginning
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Sometimes this isn't easy But it is not for us
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To make it up as we go along. I Don't like what this text says. I'm pretty sure there was someone in history
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He was accused of having a Bible with a whole bunch of sections That he took his scissors to simply because he didn't like them
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I Do not see a difference between Someone doing that with Romans chapter 9 literally and I've heard actually people do this
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Literally just come to Romans chapter 9 go. I don't like that and they just tear it out of the Bible gone problem solved
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It's over with it's gone No, I want you to take again and I know it's hard and I know that Some on social media have been reaching out to me trying to get me to take a look at professor flowers as Responses to what
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I've already put out there, but I'm not going to do that and I'll explain why I I Think there's two ways of going about this.
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I can chase professor flowers down every single Misapplicable misapplied verse that he throws out
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Out of a contextual verse that he throws out False narrative that he throws out or I can simply bring him to the truth
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What is the truth? The truth is what Romans 9 actually says plain on its face
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Using the same method that I would use reading Romans 8 or Romans 1 or Romans 3 or yes
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Romans 11 professor flowers but you see Again as I explained in the last
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Tuesday's episode You and I I think look at the scriptures in a fundamentally different manner
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I look for the context first if I am going to reach out to acts chapter 28
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To evaluate whether or not it has value to inform me on what is
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Romans chapter 9. I Need to first establish the context of Romans chapter 9 and then second
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Establish the context of acts 28 Does what is being discussed over here plug into what is being discussed over here
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If I cannot establish that link Then this passage does not illuminate that passage but sadly
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For I don't know how long Men have found it acceptable to do what you've done here
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They've found it acceptable to proof text everything in Scripture I have a point and I'm gonna go proof text it all over the place
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I can run around proof proof proof proof proof and my proof texts are bigger than your proof text And so therefore I went
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I don't believe that's rightly dividing the word of truth, sir. It's just that simple It's just that simple.
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I Want to remind you that your method is a reflection of how you view the scriptures
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Again your method is a reflection of how you view the scriptures if you will play fast and loose
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And that's what you've done here fast and loose with the scriptures in order to prove your point You believe that your point is more important than what the scriptures say directly
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If you will play play fast and loose with the scriptures the way you've done here You in effect believe that the script your point is more important than the scriptures point than the
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Romans 9 point and That's really what this boils down to so we need to follow the simple act of contextual reading
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Fancy word for it is exegesis We need to read out from the text.
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What is there not bring our Baggage and read that into the text is a
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Jesus simple act of contextual reading Again as I said on Tuesday Paul's writing style is that of a lawyer
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Building his case an airtight case that he knows is In a lot of ways as I started thinking about that concept
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Paul really is the prosecutor. He is laying the case out Before mankind of the sovereignty of God in salvation the sovereignty of God in it all that he does within creation and without and That there is a purpose in this
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He takes point upon point and those points lead to the next point every bit of it as dr
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White points out in his presentation. We'll hear that today The thread that he weaves through the whole narrative
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Unfortunately, professor flowers has put himself in the position of being the defense attorney
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Who wants to distract from the evidence? He his job is to create doubt against the evidence or in the evidence and Ultimately, he's going to do this by presenting his own alternate theory
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What he calls the noble cause what is the noble cause? again The noble cause according to professor flowers is using temporarily hardened
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Israel to bring redemption So he believes as he puts it
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Paul's intention here in Romans 9 is using temporarily hardened
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Israel to bring redemption, I think we've already exposed that as a
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Foreign narrative not just a false narrative a foreign narrative because the hardening that takes place in Romans 9 is not the hardening
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That's taking place in Romans 11 The two don't go together remember what I said a minute ago about whether or not this illumines this
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No, Romans 11 is merely another stage of the case that Paul has made
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Built on top of Romans 9 he's already established this portion and Romans 11 is him moving on and now
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Discussing a whole nother topic, but that is all built upon What has come before? We have the hijacking of terms and phrases
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Like judicial hardening and others Paul writes with precision and yet flowers is all over the place shoehorning numerous texts into his case and over the top of the plain text that is known as Romans 9 he attempts to get out in front of Paul in the previous chat section.
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We just looked at verses 1 through 5 by doing an end around What's real interesting is what we're going to be looking at today later on you're actually gonna see when he gets to the point
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Where he did the end around 1 through 5 he's going to take that and then try to leapfrog backwards
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Into using verse 6 as a baseball bat of doubt to bludgeon you with bludgeon the text with really he will appeal to the rules of hermeneutics and Authority.
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Yeah, he's done it on social media a number of times. Look. I've got all these PhDs that like me They think it's cool.
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They're their support my position. They support my method Professor flowers. Let me be clear.
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Apparently I wasn't yesterday because someone this morning feels that I need to engage you directly
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Accused me of doing a hit -and -run No Dr. White engaged you directly
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I'm exposing your method and I'm challenging your rules.
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I'm Challenging your hermeneutic that's right me a layman sitting here challenging your hermeneutic as Dishonest and not honoring to the word of truth
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Your hermeneutic does not honor the word of truth because it has an agenda of its own it's eisegesis and we should never do that under any
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Circumstances so set this set to the subject of Calvinism aside one more time for me and as We saw in dr.
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White's Review 58 seconds compared to professor flowers 8 minutes and 46 seconds in that section versus 1 through 5
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It should be no surprise to anyone that I believe that dr.
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White here in this debate gave a clinic in rightly dividing
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He managed his time very well he established the context
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Step by step and he followed he didn't lead he followed the lead of the writer the inspired writer the
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Apostle Paul And that's what rightly dividing is all about The contrast could not be greater as I said
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Dr. White spent 58 seconds in the text and from here on out. You're gonna see him spend about two minutes
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He manages to his time very well This seems spent about two minutes in each section. And by the way,
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I did divide these sections up based on The separations that I think professor flowers made as he took on bite -by -bite section by section
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Of the text and I used his slides on the wall pretty much as my guide to do that Some of it as I play it back seems a little confusing and disjointed to me even as I as I play it back
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That was not on purpose. It's just simply trying to put the two presentations side -by -side one another as best
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I can so that as we take this part and then measure this part against it and And make a parallel there as best we can
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So as we continue on here, let's um, let's see here.
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Let me do This we're going to take a look at the section of scripture and Don't do that to me suddenly my oh
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Bill Gates wants to say something to me here on my computer for a moment And I don't want him to say that so we're going to just kind of oh and I need to plug in my
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Sound. Oh Yeah, thanks Bill. I appreciate that. Yeah, let's let's just go with that and We're gonna go up here the tech when you're flying solo
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Let us read into your hearing the next section of verses which is Romans chapter 9 verses 6 and 7 and I'm going to go ahead and put them right up there
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Have that blown up. Let me go full screen on this Romans 9 verse 6
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But it is not as though the Word of God has failed for they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel Nor are they all children because they are
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Abraham's descendants But through Isaac your descendants will be named so that is the the section that we are about to take a look at and I'm gonna go ahead and queue up the video and hope that this all works very well and Let's listen to professor flowers as he begins this section
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So doesn't that prove God's Word has failed as verse 6 says no, but why not Because God's hardening he's shutting off of Israel is actually fulfilling his word.
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It's not causing it to fail Okay, I'd like you to take note of one thing here. That's really
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There we go It's right there on the screen So but it is not as though God's Word the
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Word of God has failed so we're going to take this snippet of The passage of the verse and then we're going to butt it up against Romans 1132 and I the two don't go together
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But in his world, he needs to use this doubt passage this doubt verse as a baseball bat in order to prop up his
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Narrative of hardened Israel That this is all about hardened
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Israel Which we've already taken a look at let's continue on here God has a sovereign purpose in fulfilling his word through hardened
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Israel it is It is as Paul concludes at the end of 1132 it says for God has shut up all in disobedience
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Why so that he may show mercy to all this is God's plan to show mercy to all people
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Now, how does he do that? Well by hardening Israel He's ensured the crucifixion in the engrafting of the
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Gentiles and notice that Individually hardened Israelites might still be saved and grafted back in according to Romans chapter 11 all of which goes to show what point?
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God's Word hasn't failed but it goes further than that at this time in history
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God hasn't hardened every Israelite. He is reserved for himself a remnant as dr
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White pointed out a remnant to do what just to be irresistibly saved No to fulfill his promise by bringing the word to the world
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Listen, not every descendant of Israel is chosen to do what God elected Israel to do or as Paul put it for they are not
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All Israel who are descended from Israel not every individual Israelite is chosen to carry out the purpose for which
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God elected the nation of Israel Not every Israelite is chosen to be a prophet a priest a king or the in the lineage of Christ Not all of them are chosen.
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There we go. Okay, we'll back that up chairs here in just a moment The Focus is now fully moved to Romans chapter 11.
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We're using snippets from Romans 9 6 to Highlight Romans chapter 11
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So if there is illumination going on the focus is actually over in 11 and we're using snippets from 6 to interpret 11 but again, as I said earlier, these are out of context, this is out of context and if you put them together you make a contextual case for his
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Foreign construct which isn't a part of the text at all in either place. So Let me get back to where we should have been here 1623 is where we wanted to stop there and We'll get right
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There we'll just pick up from here at 1616 and let him continue on Israel not every individual
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Israelite is chosen to carry out the purpose for which God elected the nation of Israel Not every
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Israelite is chosen to be a prophet a priest a king or in the lineage of Christ Not all of them are chosen to be apostles to carry the word and have the authority
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You see not every Israelite is chosen to fulfill the promise that God originally made to Abraham And what was that promise to bless all the families of the earth through his seed?
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You see there's a false perception at this day in time of the Israelites. What's that false perception one?
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They assumed that they were born the authorities of God's Word We speak God's Word and they also assume that they're born children of God by being a child of Abraham That makes me a child of God I'm guaranteed salvation and Paul's response to that way of thinking is to say no
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No, not every Israelite is chosen to be an authority to carry the Word of God Not everyone's elected for that purpose in verse 7 nor are they all children because they are
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Abraham's descendants You see Calvinists take these two verses to mean that only some of Abraham's descendants are born elected to be effectually saved
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Okay, stop right there Did you listen to what he just said? We have a straw man being propped up right here again.
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He's already smuggled the Hardened Israel construct into this text as he continues to beat that drum hardened
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Israel hardened Israel hardened Israel It is a rabbit completely outside the text now take note of what he just said
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Calvinists take these two verses verses 6 and 7 To mean that only some of Abraham's descendants are born elected to be effectually saved
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I'm gonna repeat that Calvinists take these two verses to mean that only some of Abraham's sex descendants are born
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Elected to be effectually saved when we come to dr. White's portion of this as he covers it
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I want you to keep that statement in mind and ask yourself if dr. White says that or if he merely goes through the texts and explains what it says right there and Is this a?
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fair description of What we find in dr. White's presentation Also, keep in mind professor flowers has already at this point, even though I'm putting flowers first in this discussion in it for this case
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Professor flowers has actually already heard dr. White on this topic So he's already heard him it what we're about to hear when we get there.
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So let's continue on here No, Paul saying no descendant is going to be effectually saved on the basis that they are descendant
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You are not irresistibly saved because of who your granddaddy is You are saved based not on your nationality, but on grace through faith.
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It's always been that way Okay. Now I want to point out something here in the interest of fairness.
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I think my evaluation of the Opening statements is at this point right here.
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We actually find the two debaters as close to the text
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Together as we're going to find Yes, dr. White is we already know dr.
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White simply following the text step -by -step all the way through but as far as the Tangled web that is already been laid out for us by professor flowers to lead us off to this hardened
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Israel Thinking he does come to the point to where he's dealing with the issue of descendant
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Israel But there are issues that he leaves out of this. So while they may be close at this point in time
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It's not gonna last very long See it is all about faith versus works
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Those who are striving to earn righteousness versus those who trust in the promise of God and his imputed righteousness
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Which is exactly why Paul goes on to give a history lesson Okay, the
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Apostle Paul is going to give us a history lesson, but I want you to look at a little something And pause right there.
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Let's go full screen with that You see what's up on the wall? Abraham's descendants according to professor flowers a slide ends
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Romans 9 7 but When we look here
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Right there. He completely left that off.
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He completely leaves but through Isaac your descendants will be named To be honest,
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I can't exactly figure out why he left that off My first inclination was it was just a cut and paste error for the slide
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But then I looked it's a Tap back to it. There's a period at the end of that look at Bible works comma
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Not a period but through Isaac your descendants will be named the most generous
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Explanation that I can make here is The professor flowers thought that it might derail you
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From the point that he just made he's trying to make a narrow point.
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He's been Arguing these hard lines between Israel law and Gentiles grace as he constructs this new narrative and verses 6 & 7 trying to establish no link regarding his descendants that the promises about the gospel
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When the promises Jesus by the way But he's trying to see some broad
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Generalities here and the problem is if he lets you see that I think it might cause you to go looking right back at the text again.
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It draws your eyes. Wait a minute. What Oh And suddenly you're reading the text again and not following along with him
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That's to be honest the most Generous Motivation I can come up with for doing that And if you don't believe me look again, he put a period on the end of that unquote period unquote
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Okay, let's continue on the history lesson Oops, and then we have the history lesson now
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We're about to go into James's presentation here. And this one lasts almost well, you know back to the hello
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Yeah, let's do that The tech has been good to me. Mm -hmm.
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I'm really hoping to play it praying that YouTube is actually live. We'll see but we're gonna play
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James's segment, which is exactly two minutes long and then compare it with Professor flowers is depiction above again.
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I want to remind you back into your hearing He says Calvinist take these two verses to mean that only some of Abraham's descendants are born elected to be effectually saved and if you're gonna decry that which isn't
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I don't think actually a fair description, but if you're going to decry that the concept of Isaac there
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Through Isaac your descendants will be named. That's the promise Hmm, I think it undermines where you're trying to go with this, but we'll see let's listen to dr
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White as he now brings us Romans 9 verses 6 & 7
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This then brings us to the key of this evening's discussion and I believe that that this will be borne out by the discussion that we have verses 6 & 7
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Determine how we must understand the rest of the discussion in chapter 9
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Because obviously what is going on here is the Apostle Paul has encountered objections to his teaching many many times before Look at all the things you've said in chapter 8 about all that God has done and yet Paul You're a small minority of Jews The small minority of Jews are accepting their own
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Messiah. The great majority including the leaders are rejecting this movement So so Paul, are you not saying that the promises of God?
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Are you not saying that the very Word of God has has fallen flat on its face has come to no effect and that's the exact objection he responds to and His answer is no you need to understand
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They are not all Israel who are descended from Israel and then he's going to give example after example after example
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Of how God has in his sovereign freedom guided the path of the promise and the blessing
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Within the descendants of Israel as God has seen fit to do so and he has
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Rejected some of those who are the offspring of Abraham But he has accepted others and it's all of his own
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Freedom it has nothing to do with anything that they did. It was not well You know, we've got that we've got the good
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Israelites over here and the bad Israelites over there And so I rejected them but there these have been good enough.
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No, that is not what Paul is talking about He gives this example after example after example, so he starts
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Within the very family of Abraham itself. He talks about Isaac and he says well, you know It could have been it could have been
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Ishmael, but no God says in Isaac. Shall your seed be called? Okay, so we're gonna stop right there.
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That's dr. White's exegesis of Romans 9 6 through 7 and Again, here's what's interesting
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When we compare what James just said with what professor flowers said previously
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There's a problem Paul's focus is on the children of the promise or the blessing and that's through Isaac.
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So as dr. White points out The promise is through Isaac That's Descendant, but it's also my faith.
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There's a faith there But it's also particular and prophetic
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Professor flowers wants to focus on the prophetic but he wants to ignore the particular.
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Let me explain what I mean God is going to be described here as having a purpose
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In all of this as dr. White said he weaves this purpose this blessing through the family line there is a descendant factor here and that Particularity comes from God's purpose in Election it's described that way that it might stand we're going to get to that but you see
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For professor flowers, he can't let you go there. He can only look at the prophetic if he looks at the particular he falls into Paul's argument which he will soon be arguing directly against So the bottom line here is he's got to avoid its basis being in God's promise
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Okay, so we're gonna go ahead and move on and we are like I said Taking a faster approach than we did last time around and there's a reason for that and we're going to look at Romans 8 9 through or 8 through 13
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Romans 9 verses 8 through 13 and and see We're gonna start with professor flowers and see how he approaches it.
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Let's first read it into your hearing that is Back up the truck here a little bit
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Context context context right and boy, I'm just bumping things. All right, but through Isaac your descendants will be named that is
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It is not the children of the flesh who are children of God But the children of the promise who are regarded as descendants for this is the word of the promise at this time
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I will come and Sarah shall have a son and Not only this but there is was
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Rebecca also when she had conceived twins by one man Our father Isaac forth though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad
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So that God's purpose according to his choice would stand not because of works
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But because of him who calls it is said to her that the older will serve the younger
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Just that is just as it is written Jacob. I loved but Esau I hated
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Okay, and let's go ahead and switch back over and go ahead and play this segment Those who are striving to earn righteousness versus those who trust in the promise of God and his imputed righteousness
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Which is exactly why Paul goes on to give a history lesson Using Ishmael in contrast with Isaac and Esau in contrast with Jacob now
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Let's just stop for a second and talk about Ishmael and Esau is Paul literally meaning to say that God hated
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Ishmael and Esau Since before the creation of the world and they have no hope of salvation whatsoever No, I think if you read the
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Old Testament, no, I think if you will go run away to the Old Testament and Let's not let
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Paul make his own argument Is Paul meaning to say that God hated Ishmael and Esau?
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No The text we have in front of us Doesn't even address that it's the next
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Section that addresses that so once again, we have professor flowers Getting out in front of it
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And if you don't really understand what I mean when I say getting out in front of it I'll I'll give you an example I tell my son as I raised him when you have issues in school that you can see
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I Didn't do that. Well on that test or I didn't do well that well here. I tell him go to your teacher
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Get out in front of it before it becomes a big problem before it becomes a festering thing
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So it's a defensive mesh measure You're supposed to get out in front of the thing so that you can minimize its damage.
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So in this case Once again, he's getting out in front of the text that is coming past the section that's actually up on the screen and he's going out after that and the interesting thing is
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I find as as Professor flowers talks about Paul's intention to talk.
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But did Paul mean this did Paul mean that it's almost like he's channeling No, he's not channeling.
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I know that but you know It's somehow he has this ability to read Paul's mind and what he actually had to say is not what he meant to say
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He really didn't mean that at all. Let's go right away to the Old Testament and we can establish these things
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But if we read the text and we look at verses 9 through 13
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Through 13 right there We see the full measure of what
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Paul is saying for this is the word of the promise at this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son and not only this but there was a
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Rebecca also I read all this for you, but he asks the question does
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Paul mean to say this? Well folks You tell me
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It's right there on your screen you tell me if that isn't what Paul meant and He is this is a two -fold argument and dr
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White will point this out as he gets into this and when it says his turn the
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Argument one example one. He's made his argument now. His example is the older will serve the younger
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Second example is Jacob. I loved Esau. I hated These are two examples of The point he's trying to make
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James will get into these things. Okay, let's go ahead and continue The Old Testament accounts you'll see that Abraham's prayer to bless
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Ishmael and take care of Ishmael was granted in Genesis 17 and Regarding Esau God specifically told
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Israel look at the screen It says Deuteronomy 23 7 do not despise an Edomite for they are your brother.
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God's not a hypocrite He's not gonna tell them not to hate him if he hates him himself Okay. Now this one I got to dig into as I said earlier.
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I can't you can't chase down Every stray verse that are thrown around in these situations.
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I my area of Experience in Alpha Omega ministries and apologetics has been in the area of Mormonism in witnessing to Mormons It is where I started out.
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It was the thing that we were doing when I first became a member in 1986 87 and It's these are the people that we're out there witnessing to and it is very commonplace
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For them to be putting up all these different verses that they think supports their heresy
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The idea that God was once a man lived on another planet. Well, let's go look at God's finger writing on the wall
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Let's go look at you know, God having hands and and all these different examples
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Hey Jacob wrestled with God. He has to have a body of flesh and bones, right? We can chase these things down right and left or we can go to the scriptures that teach directly on the nature and being of God and we can explain those things and show them the truth of Where we derive these things from and the fact that they're simply plucking those verses out of context
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Becomes apparent in the process of doing it. But in this particular situation Deuteronomy 23 verse 7
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Let's see here I'm gonna write Right over here to Deuteronomy, I thought
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I had this in the box there, but we're gonna look at verse 23 verse 7 There's Deuteronomy 23 for you folks.
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How about that first one, huh? No one is who is emasculated or has his male organ cut off shall enter the assembly of the
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Lord fun, huh? This is the law being delivered These are the rules
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These people can enter the assembly of the Lord and this is why But look diverse for last half of verse verse 4
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Those people hired you against against hired against you Balaam the son of Beor and Path or of Mesopotamia To curse you nevertheless the
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Lord your God was not willing to listen to Balaam But the Lord your God turned the curse into a blessing for you because the
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Lord your God loves you You shall never seek their peace or their prosperity all your days
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Let's move this up a little bit so we can see this a little better Now we come to the verse that professor flowers just plucked out of its context for us and shoved into the
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Romans 9 argument you Shall not detest an Edomite for he is your brother
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So he just made that comparison of God doesn't hate the Edomite Edomites He's not a hypocrite.
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So he didn't hate him then and he doesn't hate him now You know, it's interesting to me that professor flowers went here
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Because if we look at the context of Romans 9 while he's talking about Jacob and Esau He also uses
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Pharaoh as his example of God bringing jaw. Wait a minute judicial hardening. Oh, there it is about Let's read the rest of verse 7 here.
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You shall not detest an Egyptian because you were an alien in his land Well professor flowers if you're gonna put the first part into Romans 9 don't you have to carry the second part
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Things didn't work out. So well for the Egyptians remember, you know that is that the parting of the sea and Israel escaping through it and all that the hardening and if you doubt me
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You know, I'm sure that the Egyptians were all really thrilled that their firstborn children died that night
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Hmm If you're gonna use this you need to check out the context Instead of running around all over scriptured grabbing anything and everything that you think will support your case
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It's not the right way to rightly divide the word of truth.
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So let's go ahead and go back and Where we were right there, so don't despise the
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Edomite Hmm not not such a great example after all professor flowers
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Remember what God's original promise was to Abraham I will bless those who bless you and I will curse those who curse you that's a conditional promise
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I will bless those who bless you and in you all the families of the earth will be blessed
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So God promised to bless Abraham now Does that mean God is going to condemn seven of Abraham's son and most of his grandsons and not choose them to carry the seed
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Because he's that's not a blessing You got to look at the promise He says he will bless those who bless you
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Couldn't Ishmael and others the other brothers who are not chosen to carry the lineage Couldn't they still believe and support that promise and thus be saved because they bless the lineage they bless the promise
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Here's the point. What is the point professor flowers? We're now playing what's known as the conundrum game we're going to throw out all these possibilities and what ifs and what if and what if and we're going to create scenarios and Present those scenarios against the text.
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The problem is none of what he just discussed discussed is addressed in the text So despite the one scenario that the
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Apostle Paul offer offers up that might be said against him Professor flowers before he actually does that very thing creates a number of other scenarios every bit of which ignores the fact that the line of the promise is through Isaac and that Promise is about the
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Messiah the coming of the Messiah But he knows that So if he knows that why is he arguing this because he's got an agenda
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And he'll grab anything and everything he can hold on to to shove it together and hold it up Remember the play -doh?
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Hmm playing with play -doh. That's what's going on here. Let's continue on This is the part of the cross -examination
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I was trying to get to the distinction must be made between those chosen by God To bring his word and those chosen to be saved as a result of believing that word
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Do you see the distinction between those two things? So what does Paul mean in verse 13 when he quotes from Malachi Jacob?
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I loved and Esau. I hated Did you notice something there there? Here we go again a
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Little of it's up on the screen So therefore apparently we're supposed to be held accountable for it because what if it's up on the screen it's part of his argument
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It's a verbal skip of the Context so we're going to run to the end and read it backwards.
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That's right. Here we go with reading it backwards We're going to talk about Jacob. I loved and Esau. I hated even though we've already tried to head that off previously
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But the point is Paul's References are in order first. The older will serve the younger
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Again, that's that particular particularity of the prophecy It is a particular prophecy.
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God wants it done this way through these people Jacob is my choice not
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Esau and It is before the twins were born or ever did anything good or bad
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You got to think about that it is before they were born or ever did anything good or bad
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Dr. White's gonna bring that out as he evaluates this text. Let's keep going as Dr.
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White has pointed out This is 1500 years between Versus 12 and verse 13 and it's after Jacob and Esau are of course long dead and it's in response to the
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Edomites After they have attacked Israel So in response to their cursing of Israel Edom's cursing of Israel the promise says
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I will curse those who curse you So what's Paul's point being the seed of Isaac does not ensure your salvation, especially if you stand in opposition to the very no
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It doesn't ensure your salvation. But guess what? Being the seed of Isaac you're probably involved or maybe the parent or pre
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Ancestor of Jesus, you know those pesky genealogies that we see in Scripture That's what that's all about that's describing how the
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Messiah has come to us From Abraham to David all the way to Joseph and Mary But he doesn't want to let that speak
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Not at all Is there context offered in any of these passages? No, not at all
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Again, he's playing the conundrum game. He's made many many departures. He's ignoring the
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Particularity of the point at hand and the point is right there in verse 11 folks
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He's gonna go. Oops. I'm over here Wrong verse 11. Let's go verse 11.
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Here's the point and he's gonna get into Later on here what you'll hear him say.
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What does it mean? This is what it means for though the twins were not yet born or had not done anything good or bad so that God's purpose according to his choice would stand not because of works, but because of him who calls and Down to verse 16.
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It doesn't depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy God's perverse 11
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God's purpose according to his choice That's what it is It is
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God's purpose according to his choice That's what's important to the Apostle Paul not because of works, but because of him who calls
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All right. Let's continue on here the very
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Word of God as did your own brothers the Edomites Okay, we're gonna stop right there and now we're going to go to dr.
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White's presentation as time is fleeting But I tell you doing this show
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When you really get a roll going on it It goes by very quickly and we still have a lot of ground to cover
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I might actually go long just to be able to finish this off today because dr.
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White will be back next week So let's um, let's go on to watch dr. White's evaluation of Romans 9 8 through 13
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And Therefore he says in verse 8 it is not the children of the flesh
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They're the children of God, but the children of promise that are reckoned as true descendants of Abraham so there is a
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Principle that is laid out here and what's good? We're gonna see all the way through the rest of the chapter is that we are going to see
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God's sovereign freedom Illustrated over and over and over again
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Drawn from examples in Israel's history to answer the objection Paul Why are so many
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Jews not believing in the message that you present? Okay, so with that in mind
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He says in verse 9 for example for this is the promise at this time
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I will come and and Sarah will have a son and so God Miraculously raised up someone that doesn't even didn't even exist at the time that God said no
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I'm not going in the direction that you think I'm gonna be going Abraham He brings someone into existence that didn't even exist at that time
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And then he brings up the example of Jacob and Esau not only this but also
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Rebekah When she had conceived by one man our father Isaac Even before the twins had done anything good or bad in Order that the purpose of God according to his choice his election might stand
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Not from works But from the calling one there's that term calling remember this is just directly across the page from where that term calling had been used in in the
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Description of the elect of God the term calling had been used in regards to those who are then justified
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You have the same language being used here in order that That purpose of God according to election might stand not from works
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But from the one calling it was said to her the greater or the older shall shall serve the younger
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Just as is written Jacob. I love but Esau I hate it now that second citation is from Malachi 1 2 and many people will say ah see this is this is about nations
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This is about the Edomites and the Israelites the problem Is is that how Paul is using this text or is he using this text to reflect back upon the very words that were said?
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To Rebekah in regards to God's freedom to choose it seems fairly obvious That's exactly what he's doing and may
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I suggest just in passing that what should startle a biblically trained mind
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In the phrase Jacob. I loved Esau. I hated is not Esau.
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I hated but Jacob I loved that's what should be startling if you have the idea that God owes his love
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That's Anyone whether it be Jacob or Esau or anyone else is owed something from God That you don't understand the the hatred that God has for sin and his holiness and his separation if you think that's something he's under Obligation to do then you're not going to really be able to understand what
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Romans 9 is all about Okay, and something
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I want to point out and I missed it on the last one For those of you who think that Malachi 1 2 & 3
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Strictly referring to Jacob and Esau in a national level. I challenge you to go back and look at it
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I've got a speed pass this for time right now because I've got to speed things up go back and look at it
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I think you're gonna find if you look at it fairly that in verse 2 it speaks directly to of Jacob and Esau as Individuals and in verse 3 then takes the result of God's judgment
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God's particularity and Brings it forward into his descendants
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But I submit to you that those of you who've accused the Apostle Paul of cherry -picking
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Malachi I don't think he did at all I think he uses it and he uses it properly and he uses it within its context and he does a great job with it
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The problem is again your tradition Can't let him speak that can't let it be that and You've got to fight against it.
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So but for the sake of moving on we're going to take a look at professor Flowers his presentation on Romans 9 14 through 18, but before we get to that, let's read it into your hearing
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What shall we say then there is no injustice with God is there may it never be there's
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Paul's detractor singing his song say using his Objection what
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God why did you make me this way for he says to Moses? I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom
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I have compassion So then this is Paul's conclusion as he looks at these texts
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So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy
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For the scripture says to Pharaoh for this very purpose I raised you up to demonstrate my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth
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So that conclusion time he has mercy on whom he desires and he hardens whom he desires
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There's his argument. There is his point now. Let's go ahead and look at Professor flowers view on this passage
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First 14 asked the question is God just to condemn a direct descendant of Isaac to hell
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Ask the Edomites they stood in opposition to God fulfilling of his promise and look what happened to them
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Paul is saying if you curse those direct descendants of Isaac for opposing God's Word Why would it be unjust for him to condemn you for opposing
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God's Word? Yeah, okay, so we've shoon horned hardened Israel into this we brought the
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Passover into it which where's that in the text Did you notice that he's reading something other than what is on the screen?
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This is about Israel being hardened Hmm Paul's entire thought process has been contorted into something completely unrecognizable here by someone who is actually
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It's unrecognizable by someone who has actually read this text. So think about it if we had an unbiased observer
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Come to Romans 9 and simply read the text for what it was saying Could they come to professor flowers his conclusion would they even look to professor flowers his conclusion would they even think about hardened
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Israel? When they're reading about Pharaoh, I don't I don't think they would
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Let's keep going here Paul is reminding his readers that direct descendants standing in opposition to God's Word.
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It's nothing new It's been happening for years. There's no reason to think God's Word is failed because Descendants are opposing him
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Paul goes on to quote from God's exchange with Moses in Exodus 32 and 33 all mercy on whom
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I have mercy This is where Israel has obviously just built the golden calf They deserve to be wiped out immediately for their rebellion against God But in response to Moses's intercession
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God relents and he shows them mercy So why would Paul refer to this story which they would have been very familiar with Paul is saying by way of a history lesson if God chooses to show mercy to some unfaithful
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Israelites and Harden other unfaithful Israelites in order to fulfill his promise to bring the word to the world
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Then who are you to question him verse 16? So it then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy
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What is it referring to in verse 16 same thing? He introduced in verse 6. That's why verse 6
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I agree with dr. White is key. He's no it's referring to verse 11 He's referring to God's Word not failing because God's Word doesn't depend upon the man who wills and the man who wants runs
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God's promise to bless all the families of the Earth and his by his word that cannot fail. It's not dependent upon the faithfulness of the
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Israelites He will show mercy to the unfaithful Israel by patiently enduring them in the rebellion in order to fulfill his promise
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Like he did in the cold golden calf incidents and he will harden them in the rebellion in order to fulfill that same promise
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Like he's doing now in the first century Paul uses the example of Pharaoh in verse 17 and 18 to make his point
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Just as God hardened Pharaoh in his rebellion to accomplish the first Passover catch this
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So too he hardens Israel in their rebellion in order to accomplish the real
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Passover God is accomplishing a redemptive purpose through hardening Israel now again
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I just I can't avoid the fact that It's just not there
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It's just not there you totally ignoring Paul's point and Pharaoh's being hardened not
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Israel God's power is being just demonstrated in Pharaoh's hardening
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This is judicial hardening Not what professor flowers has presented the contrast between the text and flowers is false premise could not be more clear
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Let's hear him out now What would one of these callous Jews say in response to this if you were one of those
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Jews? That was being cut off in calloused Well, Paul tells us exactly what a
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Jew would say to that Romans 3 It brings the diatribe up earlier in the book of Romans But if our righteousness brings out
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God's righteousness more clearly What shall we say that God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? That's an
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Israelite talking. Does that sound familiar? actually, that's Not an
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Israelite talking that is the converted man The Apostle Paul that is a
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Christian talking. Yeah, he's an Israelite, but he's converted so Again we just keep building the whole new narrative to run by it
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Needing to speed by for time. So let's go ahead and bring James into the equation and listen to what he has to say
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Now all through this text we're going to have objections raised and those objections are like guideposts
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They are helping us to understand where this text is to be taking us if you end up agreeing with the objector
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That means you're arguing with Paul. You don't want to be there. Okay? When you hear the objections the objections will help you to understand
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Where it is that Paul himself is going with his argument and the fact that he's heard all these objections before What shall we say then?
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There is no unrighteousness with God is there may it never be so clearly Something about what he just said indicates there was unrighteousness with God If you take the
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Malachi 1 2 thing read it backwards into it say well This is just about Israelite the Edomites the Edomites are persecuting the
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Israelites that takes away the idea of unrighteousness The point is that before the twins had done anything good or bad
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God made a decision that left one out of the line of promise. That was
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God's free choice to do that and So he raises the issue of unrighteousness and the first counter example
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He's going to offer in verse 15 is for Moses says I will mercy whom
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I mercy and I will compassion whom I compassion They are literally verbs in the original language
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And so he draws from Exodus 33 where again God in his freedom revealed himself to Moses In such a way that he didn't have to do this, but he chose to do this out of his own freedom his own kingly freedom and he mercied whom he would mercy and he compassion whom he would compassion and Then we have the apostolic interpretation given to us once again
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Therefore it is not of the willing one Using the standard term to will it is not of the one who wills
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Neither is the one who is running who is engaged in activity but in Contrast to the activities of man in his will and his activities, but the mercying
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God So whatever is being talked about has something to do with God showing mercy in Contrast to the activities of man whether it be the will of man or the running of man
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And that's the understanding that Paul gives us of the quotation from Exodus 33 And then he just piles on and now he gives us a fascinating example
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Because now he takes us outside of the people of Israel To someone that everyone in the people of Israel knew all about and that is to Pharaoh For the scriptures say to Pharaoh that for this very reason
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I raised you up singular in Order that I might demonstrate in you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth now once again unless the demonstration of God's power and Unless the proclamation of his name and all the earth is a part of our highest priorities
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We will never really understand what Romans 9 is all about and the fact the matter is in our very
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Western culture, that's not a high priority for almost any of us anymore and Yet the point that is being made by the
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Apostle is that look God can raise someone up and certainly Pharaoh represented the entire nation of Egypt, but Pharaoh ended up being destroyed in this whole incident.
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Did he not? He himself was raised up his heart was hardened God said before Moses ever talked to him that he would harden his heart because he had a purpose
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He had purpose to despoil the gods of Egypt. He had a purpose to bring all the plagues to pass and So he put
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Pharaoh in that position for that purpose and he was absolutely just and free To do that and that's exactly how the
01:00:06
Apostle then interprets those words in verse 18 therefore whom he wills he mercies and Whom he wills he hardens uses the very same
01:00:20
Greek term that's used in the Greek Septuagint of God's activity in Pharaoh in hardening his heart
01:00:27
In the original language is a direct parallel between the two whom he wills notice the contrast.
01:00:32
It's not of the man willing But of God willing whom he wills he mercies and whom he wills he hardens
01:00:43
Now I'd like to suggest to you That's really the text that causes people a real problem
01:00:48
Because if God really has this freedom to deal with his own creation as he sees fit
01:00:55
Then all of man's attempts to in some way insert himself Into the process of salvation, even if it says 99 % of it is of God but man has
01:01:10
Control right here all of those systems collapse If what
01:01:15
Paul is saying here has has specific application to the actual gospel itself
01:01:22
Okay. So in the case of correcting the record here for the purpose of correcting the rap record
01:01:29
The objections in the text to what professor flowers has presented are right there
01:01:35
Pharaoh is the one being hardened. I Already covered this the contrast is there so let's for the sake of time
01:01:43
We're going to speed along and get to professor flowers is Presentation as he wraps up with verse 19 now one thing you need to keep in mind here is that because professor flowers used eight minutes and 46 seconds when he was in one through five, he's eaten up a tremendous amount of his time and And Dr.
01:02:07
White has Managed his time very well here So he actually has a good deal of time still left and I need to get through all of that So let me read real quick here for you
01:02:20
Verse 19 you will say to me then why does he still find fault for who resists his will? So let me go ahead and play the clip as professor flowers deals with verse 19
01:02:32
It sounds exactly like verse 19 The Paul's objector is not an
01:02:38
Arminian Paul's objector represents an Israelite who has grown calloused and is being
01:02:43
Judicially hardened in that condition. It does not represent someone born Decreed by God to be totally unable to willingly respond to God's own appeals to be reconciled
01:02:55
There is absolutely nothing in Scripture, which teaches that man is born unable to respond to God's gracious truth
01:03:04
That is why he holds us Responsible able to respond we are able to respond to the truth of God that is revealed
01:03:13
That's why he holds us responsible to that word Romans 1 clearly teaches that no man has any excuse
01:03:20
Yet if Calvinism is true, then unbelievers have the best excuse known to man. God made me like this
01:03:26
I couldn't have done otherwise false critic. I hated God why he first hated me false critic.
01:03:31
I rejected God Why he first rejected me? God made me like this and I was not able to do anything about it
01:03:37
I was not able to have faith why he didn't grant me the faith to have We give mankind an excuse and unbelievers an excuse by adopting the systematic
01:03:46
I believe we need to be able to say the simplicity of the gospel Repent and live as Ezekiel 18 says come to me all who are weary and heavy laden
01:03:57
And I will give you rest Take my yoke upon and learn from me for I am gentle and humble in heart and you will find rest for your souls for My yoke is easy and my burden is light.
01:04:07
Thank you and that concludes professor flowers presentation of Romans chapter 9 which he
01:04:18
Literally spent and I calculated this based on time And I was very conservative with how
01:04:25
I put this together if professor flowers seemed to still even being a alluding to the text that he was focusing on I Did not count that against him.
01:04:36
He spent more than 40 % of his time outside of the focal text
01:04:42
I Think that speaks volumes 40 % of his time more than 40 % outside of the focal text.
01:04:49
So In summary Flowers needs this to be about God Judicially hardening
01:04:57
Israel if he can't make that happen his and his entire case crumbles But for Paul the hardening example is about Pharaoh and how
01:05:06
God used him for his own purposes and he did so righteously That's the thing we have to remember
01:05:13
God gets to do this because we are his creation. He that's the example
01:05:19
He's the Potter. We're the clay he gets to he gets to make from the same lump
01:05:26
Vessels for his purpose whether that common use or for honorable use that's what the text says and In this particular case sadly when flowers wraps up he goes right back to being
01:05:42
Paul's objector directly He does it without shame. He does it verbatim and His presentation ends here, so we still have dr.
01:05:51
White's Presentation on verse 19. Let's go ahead and listen to it and all of man's attempts to in some way insert himself
01:06:05
Into the process of salvation, even if it says 99 % of it is of God but Man has control right here all of those systems collapse if what
01:06:20
Paul is saying here has has specific application to the actual gospel itself and The objection raised by Paul in verse 19 makes this very very clear
01:06:35
Therefore you will say to me How can he still find fault for who is able to literally stand against his will
01:06:45
His will who can stand against his will the argument basically is well if this is the case then
01:06:50
God has no basis upon which He can judge because this is arbitrary and There has to be some external means of controlling
01:07:01
God's activities Okay, so very quickly here for the sake of time
01:07:08
This the emphasis here is on God's sovereignty and that is the focus of the Apostle Paul James now has the remainder of the time as he is going to go
01:07:19
Into Romans 20 through 24. Let me read it into your hearing real quick 20 through 24
01:07:27
On the contrary who are you old man who answers back to God the thing molded will not say to the molder
01:07:32
Why did you make me like this? Or does not the Potter have right over the clay to make from the same lump of one vessel for honorable use and another for Common use what if God willing to make?
01:07:44
willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and He did so to make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory
01:07:58
Even us whom he also called not only from not from among Jews only but also from among Gentiles now,
01:08:10
I want you to keep in mind here that while we could say that professor flowers didn't actually directly
01:08:16
Interact with this text. He actually Again, that was that leapfrog back in Romans 9 1 through 5 where he jumped ahead to write to to attempt to redefine
01:08:27
The clay in the hands of the Potter and the purpose behind that being hardened Israel a
01:08:33
Concept that isn't here at all. So let's go ahead and listen to dr. White as he finishes up His let me get over to that as he finishes up Romans his
01:08:45
Romans 9 present presentation Now many people including even reformed theologians
01:08:53
Don't view verse 20 as a full response. I do I Believe what what follows you have a full response to the argument that was just made by the objector
01:09:05
But see if you can see how that that works out literally it is. Oh, man Who are you the one answering back to God by putting that term man right at the beginning?
01:09:17
I Think the answer is given You are his creature He made you he formed you every breath of your mouth every beat of your heart comes from his hand and He can do with you as he pleases
01:09:32
Amen, who are you to answer back to God? And then you have the quotation from Isaiah 29 the thing for the one who formed it.
01:09:41
Why did you make me like this? The fact the matter is we don't like viewing ourselves as pots haven't been made by the hand of the
01:09:48
Potter We don't like that We we rebel against that we chafe against that but that certainly is the biblical perspective
01:09:59
Question is asked in verse 21 does not the Potter have the the exoceon the the authority the power at the same lump
01:10:11
To make same lump of clay to make some vessels for Well for honor and Does not the
01:10:21
Potter when he he places that lump is there is there anyone who can force him To make something from that clay that he does not desire to do
01:10:30
So does it does he not have the freedom to say I'm gonna make something beautiful for the king's palace and Then he puts some more of the exact same clay on and he makes a chamber pot
01:10:42
He makes something that is for dishonorable use What does he mean by that?
01:10:48
What what what could that possibly mean? What is the application? Well, he goes on What if God though though?
01:10:58
Willing to make known his demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power endured with much patience vessels of wrath be fair prepared beforehand for destruction
01:11:09
In order that he make might make known the the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy
01:11:16
Which he prepared beforehand for glory notice this follows directly on the illustration
01:11:21
He just gave us follows directly on illustration the illustration was the Potter and So you have vessels of dishonor that is they're prepared for destruction and then you have vessels of mercy
01:11:34
That are prepared for honor. And so Paul presents the idea. What God put up with great patience
01:11:42
Those vessels that he created for dishonor and it has a purpose in order that he might make known the riches of his
01:11:50
Glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory.
01:11:56
Have you heard that language before? Remember in Ephesians chapter the fundamental question.
01:12:01
Why God why one person and not another why the way of salvation that you've chosen?
01:12:08
The biggest answer to all that To the praise of his glorious grace
01:12:13
Amen First of all, first of all, I want to just say that I actually things started over on me
01:12:24
In summary here Professor flowers on social media
01:12:30
Faulted me and I'm gonna get into this a little bit an exchange that he and I had back in November which was which of And I'm gonna get into the details of that here in a moment, but Professor flowers in his presentation
01:12:47
I measured seven minutes and 53 seconds spent away from the focal text now
01:12:54
I mentioned that He departed the text
01:13:01
Frequently and he objected to that characterization and he
01:13:07
Accused James of departing from the text as well. Not just not as much as him and He in this exchange.
01:13:16
I said, okay. Well, so where do you show? You know because chapter of divisions as James points out didn't come along until 1551 so You know,
01:13:29
I think that it's a poor beginning and we went back and forth as to What exactly he believed?
01:13:37
The chapter actually began at and finally said it begins at 9 1 that's what was in the contract So 9 verse 1 is where it starts fine
01:13:45
So if we actually look and use the same standard and actually I was more strict with James Home team and all that, you know
01:13:54
James spent 2 minutes and 48 seconds It of Romans 9 in his presentation
01:14:05
That includes any allusions whatsoever to any other text even the remotest and the minors the tiniest of counting
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One minute and 43 seconds of that was spent It's 828 through 39.
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So literally one minute and three seconds Was spent by James White outside of Romans 828
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Through 924 and his
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Use of the text was as I said a clinic in how to do exegesis point by point by point
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Following the text not leading the text and as that's just that's just huge now
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What triggered all this Happened back in late November when I received an email. I'm the guy that answers the phones around here
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I'm the guy that you know screens the emails To be honest, not very email many emails actually get through to dr.
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White They really need to be something that caused me to want to interrupt him to make that happen but this gentleman
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Looked at the description that dr. White wrote on our YouTube page of this debate and he called it dishonest
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Demanded that we take it down that Professor flowers did not exegete the passage and instead changed the subject and I challenged the man in email and I asked him where when did then you show me when did professor flowers actually where did he actually exegete the text and he sent me an email back basically showing
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The presentation from beginning to end was the timestamps or professor flowers portion of it
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Which was not exactly as we've just seen Truthful about that in response to that email
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I Asking and I was doing a number of different things and I fired up the audio version of this and while I'm doing other things
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I'm listening to professor flowers is opening presentation and I'm simply writing numbers down and As best as I could figure out he was bouncing all over the
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I Do think I've found that he did leapfrog from here to there But the case was not nearly as bad as I had put together and professor flowers rightly
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Challenged me on Twitter called it a dishonest exchange and wrote an article about it or a dishonest counting of of his word order and then brought
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These slides that he used or the overheads and the fact that they were one after the other after there well, we've we've seen how
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Relevant the slides actually were to his verbal presentation and what was in that book?
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that he was reading from Even to the point of reading scriptures that or things that weren't there as if they were but I Improperly counted off the audio and the fact of the matter is when
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I went to the video that he pointed me to I Tried to duplicate what
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I had done and frankly even going back to the audio I could not make it happen again didn't figure out how in the world I got that And so I apologized rightly and I honestly said to him.
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I don't know how I came up with those numbers Perhaps somehow I got confused From his many departures from the text.
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I tried to write these things down directly, but I was doing it I was not giving the presentation.
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It's proper do I was being fast and loose in In that and that's how this came about because I told him
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I said the problem is is now I feel like I owe you a proper evaluation no matter how that comes out and To be honest,
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I think I've done that. I Think I've pointed to the scriptures. I've Shown the charge that we have before us and that under no circumstances
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Should we ever find ourselves doing this? Now this morning someone on social media asked, you know, am
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I ever gonna actually enter what he says? I know he's already posted a
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Reply to me which I have deliberately not Viewed because I needed to get through this and not be distracted from it with more argumentation the one thing that I found with professor flowers is
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Eric has no end. There is no end to rhetoric with the man and When it comes to reasoning with him as dr.
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White tried to do in the cross -examination of this debate. It's not possible It just isn't going to happen as I said last
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Tuesday. I Do believe that it's like talking to a brick everything you say just bounces right off.
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He's gonna think what he thinks Should we as apologists? Do this work?
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Chasing the rabbits of the groups that were evaluating when they bring the boatload of verses
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That professor flowers brings here Do we have an obligation to chase down every single one to find out whether or not it's in context or not?
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I know for a fact the ones that I did look at we're not They weren't
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One of these things was not like the other one of these things was not the same Theology, I mean that that's as simple as it gets or Do we take the approach of The authentic thing
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Do we hold the other side to the truth? instead of chasing down all these rabbits whether it's dealing with a more than in the issue of God once having it or having a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man and Running around all these different proof texts that they've come up with Or do we take them to the texts that show us plainly the truth of the matter?
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I believe that's how we do apologetics. We show them the real Show them the real thing.
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It will expose the false thing and so I have no intention of chasing down professor flowers is continued rhetorical
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Justifications for this I do not believe that this is how you treat the scriptures albinism is the issue or whether it's
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Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormonism or Roman Catholicism or Sinist Sinless perfectionism or go down the all these isms or King James only ism
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You need to take them to the truth make them to the facts and show them those that's how you do it rightly dividing the word of truth
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There is something we call the highway game when we're talking with Mormons My favorite issue in witnessing to Mormons is who
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God is Explaining going to verses and passages like Isaiah 43 44 going into Isaiah 40 through 48 and explaining
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This is our great God, this is the God of the Old Testament He is created all these things and there is no other there is not a plurality of gods
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There is only one true God Going into the Shema here. Oh Israel.
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The Lord is one Going into All these different things, but I'm taking them to the truth
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But you see when you're doing that you will find Off but interrupt you and if it's as if you're going down a
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Highway and somebody grabs your steering wheel and takes you down an off -ramp They take you to a distraction
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They want to take you somewhere else but allow you to go straight down that hallway that highway the narrow path for instance would be a good example and job is to go with them because if you try to pull it back you're gonna wreck and Bad things will happen point is you're going to clash
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Verbally, they want to go here so you simply go there with them and you look for the first opportunity to pick to get then take them on an on -ramp to Get back on the highway
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And track where we're back talking about who God is Okay, so that to me is the right way to do this
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Romans chapter 9 was the text bringing him back to the text is what dr.
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White did Yes in the cross -examination he did Examination that professor flowers made and believe it or not the next chance
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I get of being in here we're actually going to shift gears here and pick up the cross -examination portions and start unpacking that because his answer in some respects is
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Amazing to me to many of these questions, but it brings out the points that I've made regarding that were asked of him
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Professor flowers refuses to see the point Repeatedly he insists on putting for instance core issues together like judicial hardening and the depravity of the heart and The deadness of man in sin and then arguing that Thing that he's put together which we see is two different things and when we challenge him on it
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Distinction without a difference again dismissed out of hand He's going to justify himself.
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He's going to deflect just as he did here today in this example
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So why am I doing this? What's the point in going through all this if it's not to correct professor flowers?
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It's not to correct professor flowers. I don't think that he's correctable My hope is toward those young men that he's teaching
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That's right. I'm hoping When one of those young men finds himself in that situation like that Young man did many years ago
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It was the example in dr. White's book pulpit crimes Who was sitting there looking for what preaches good
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I'm hoping that as that young man is sitting there Preaching preparing to preach his first sermon and he's thinking about what preaches good
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Looking for things that have sizzle so he can impress his audience I'm hoping that one of those young men will have viewed this
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View and he'll think of this show when he's doing that and he will be convicted as he's doing that.
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He'll be reminded that's not how you handle the Word of God and he will rein himself in he will put he will model the
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Apostle Paul and Follow the text Just as the
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Apostle Paul did in this text and he will rightly
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Divide the word of truth and that will be his ultimate priority as he presents that sermon and he will put off the desire to tickle ears and Instead he will put on the desire to Use God's Word knowing that it will not come back void and that wherever they may be in this audience
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Whether they be little child or elderly God's Word will speak to them if they're believers
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God's Word will speak to them if they are elect God's Word will not come back void
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You've got to think about that In his closing remarks, and I'm gonna start wrapping up here.
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Yes. Today was an actual jumbo. How about that? I did a jumbo life. I hope Professor flowers
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Goes off on to Joel Osteen what he calls Namby Pamby evangelicalism He says what drew him to Calvinism was the fact that there was an answer there.
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There was a standard against this kind of thing and He decries this but you see professor flowers or anybody else who
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Wants to use these take this path that he's taken I Submit to you that the only difference between what was done here and what a
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Joel Osteen does or what a man? Does is the outcome?
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The method is the same the view of the scriptures is the same it is Plato that you can shape into anything you want it to be and You can play with it and make it look like anything that you want
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Even if you want it to be a unicorn or if you want it to be a Homosexual Christian or if you want it to be a health wealth gospel, or if you want it to be let's all be happy happy happy and We'll start with a
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Bible in our hand Giving a pretty speech that has nothing to do with what's in Scripture.
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I don't see a difference in the method It's what gives them the feeling that they can have that freedom and there is no fidelity to the scriptures there
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So how can professor flowers? Consistently decry it.
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I don't believe that he can not consistently anyway, he can preach again
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It's against it all he wants but in my book There's a hypocrisy meter there that's going off the charts.
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Ah Look at that end of the slideshow. I Thank you for bearing with me as we have done this together.
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And I want to thank those who have Who have given me their
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Encouragement as I've done this. This is not what I normally do and I have found that is it is hard to do what dr.
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White does and I don't even pale in comparison to his abilities, but I thank you and I and I hope for an opportunity to be able to do this again and I appreciate it.