September 9, 2016 Show “An Interview with Staff Sgt. David Karnes, Used by God to Rescue Trapped NYC Transit Police Officers in the September 11, 2001 Attack on the Twin Towers”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday.

On this ninth day of September 2016, I am so delighted to have an old friend back in the studio after many years of absence, Staff Sergeant David Carnes, who I interviewed on at least two occasions in the old Iron Sharpens Iron program and providentially he was in town here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania where we broadcast Iron Sharpens Iron.

He was in town today to speak at a 9 -11 memorial prayer breakfast which was held at the United States Army War College right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. That was orchestrated by a local Christian businessman's fellowship and David Carnes was the keynote speaker there and he has a remarkable testimony to tell you.

Many of you may have seen the movie World Trade Center starring Nicolas Cage and Michael Shannon. Michael Shannon portrayed in the film Staff Sergeant David Carnes and he was a Marine who God used to locate and help rescue the New York City Port Authority police officers trapped beneath the rubble of one of the collapsed Twin Towers on September 11th, 2001 and we are going to be discussing with David Carnes today how his faith in Jesus Christ was used by God to actually lead him to that disaster scene, to ground zero and how the Lord used him to rescue these two men who would likely have perished if he had not gone into that very dangerous site and I welcome you back after a number of years not seeing you.

My friend David Carnes, it's great to have you back in the studio.

It's good to be back Chris and good to see you again.

And co-hosting the program with me today is Lieutenant Colonel Kevin Girard. He is also an elder at Grace Community Church of Dawsonville, Georgia and it's great to have you in the studio for the very first time ever, Lieutenant Colonel Kevin Girard.

Thank you Chris, good to be here and honored to be sitting next to David.

Yeah, well why don't you tell our listeners before we go into David's story, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about the Grace Community Church of Dawsonville, Georgia.

Sure, well one of your recent guests, Ray Rhodes, is our pastor there Chris, a dear friend and compatriot. Ray and I serve as the elders of a small congregation about an hour northeast of Atlanta and the church was planted in 2005 by Ray and we've grown slowly but steadily in those 10 or 11 years since then and we've got a congregation of about 80 to 100 folks there each Sunday.

I am absent from them right now as a student at the War College but anxious to return when my year here is complete.

Great, well it's great to have you on the program and Ray Rhodes has some very high compliments about you and your abilities and he highly recommends that I interview as a guest sometime in the near future and I plan to do that with you, God willing, and looking forward to perhaps even one day hearing you preach sometime because I heard you're very good at that as well.

Thank you Chris.

Well it's great to have you fellowshipping with us at Grace Baptist Church here in Carlisle for the next year as you work at the local War College and I'm sure you're going to be greatly missed in Dawsonville.

I'd also like to give a shout out right now to a dear friend of mine that I've known I think since the late 1980s, early 1990s, Pastor Jim Barker who was for a number of years David Karn's pastor and in fact the Lord used Jim Barker to lead David to Christ.

And David, if you could, let our listeners know something about your own upbringing and religious background and when it was that the Lord actually transformed your heart and saved you.

Yeah, sure Chris. Well, the process started I guess years back when I was just like 12 years old and I remember being out shopping with my mom one day and I spotted a kids Bible called The Way. It was a Bible, I guess a Catholic Bible for teenagers.

Were you a Catholic at the time?

Yes, my dad was a Messiah Lutheran and my mom was Roman Catholic so she brought brought up her six kids to be Roman Catholic and we went to Catholic school. So you got beat up by those nuns and black habits.

And you probably deserved it though, right?

I was a good kid. I didn't really turn a while until I hit public school in the seventh grade. But so I brought that Bible home and even as I've always been kind of a pragmatic thinker and I thought, well, if we go to church every Sunday and it's important and the Bible's the Word of God and everything around the church service is centered on the Bible, I wanted to read the Bible.

So I got that Bible and I took it home and I started reading it from page one, Genesis, and I worked my way and I eventually read through the entire Bible at age 12.

That was probably a very rare thing for a 12-year-old Catholic boy to do, let alone a 12-year-old Baptist boy. I certainly never did that as a 12-year-old Catholic boy.

Yeah. I remember when I got to, I think it was Romans and it said, thou shalt call no man a father except your father in heaven. And I asked my mom about that because the Catholic priests of the church like to be called father.

And I says, Mom, it says here, you're not supposed to do that. And she said, well, I'll tell you what, Davo, uh, after I drop you off at school in the morning, I'll go to the rectory and I'll ask the head priest about it.

And so, uh, I guess she did. I came home the next day from school and I was anxious to find out what he had said. And I said, Mom, what did, what did father need say about that? And she said, well, he said that you're to suppose you're, you should stop reading the Bible immediately because it could send you to hell.

Yeah. I was, she said that, uh, he said that only you have to have to have a Roman Catholic priest present because he's the only one qualified to interpret Holy scripture. And I says, well, Mom, I've already read in the Bible that God wants us to know his word.

Uh, I'm going to keep reading it. And, uh, she said, okay, son, go ahead. And I, I, I finished the rest of the Bible. Uh, but I had no one to mentor me spiritually. So, uh, I still, when I got done, I went out into the world and I was just, you know, a regular kid with, you know, lost center.

And, uh, but it always stayed. Everything I had read was in my mind. A lot of it troubled me because a lot of what we did in the, the, the mass didn't line up with the Bible. And, uh, cause I had read the Bible from front to back and, uh, but you know, that's all I knew.

So I, I stayed in the Catholic church. And then when I got older, I, I, uh, I started making those long trips, uh, from Camp Lejeune to New York, uh, to visit my wife and started listening to Christian talk radio.

I listened to a lot of political talk radio. Uh, but then when those stations would go off, I, I'd listened to the Christian pop radio and, uh, family radio was one of them that was on, uh, I don't think it's on anymore, but, uh, it was certainly has changed since then anyway.

Yeah. Uh, but you know, there was enough truth in, in Harold Campion preaching that, uh, I learned. Uh, and then I, I read the Bible through cover to cover a couple of more times and, you know, the word of God says faith cometh by hearing and hearing from, by the word of God.

And the more I read the Bible, the more God opened up my eyes to truth. And, uh, but you know, then I got married in a Catholic church in Long Island and, you know, we were attending mass. And then, uh, and I was very active, you know, trying to, you know, get close to God.

I was a lector in the church. I sang in the choir. I, I, uh, I did the priest taxes. I taught the one priest Lotus notes. I was, I ate dinner with them at the rectory once or twice a week. It was like four priests there, but then, uh, you know, God enabled me to, to, to leave that.

And that's why, how I met you, I was going around to different churches pretty much every weekend and trying to visit that church. And, uh, I would test the, the church by the word of God. You know, when I walked in there, I could quickly see if the, that service lined up with the Bible.

I wanted to see a service that actually lined up with the Bible that I had read. And, uh, I visited your, your service. I liked that. But then one day I was closer to my house. I was driving down the street and I saw this, I had seen a white tent outside this old fish market before.

I didn't know what it was about. Uh, but then I guess they had bought a sign and hung it on the building that was still, they weren't moved into the building yet. They were still in the white tent that said Bible Baptist church.

And, uh, I said, Oh, it's Bible Baptist church. Maybe they're Bible centered. So I went in there and pastor Barker was preaching. And, and, uh, I, uh, I heard good, solid Bible preaching there that, that really touched me.

And I, I just kept going to that church and, uh, but I still wasn't saved, even though I knew I was going to a church with good, strong Bible preaching. And I read the Bible through a couple of times, but my issue, Chris, was, uh, you know, being brought up all those years as a, uh, a Roman Catholic, that's a work salvation.

You know, you, you grace comes to you by going to mass and confession, going to communion, and you worked your way towards your salvation. And, uh, I figured, okay, God, I know Jesus died on the cross for my sins.

Uh, but I knew that, uh, I was a wicked sinner. I knew my, nobody knows you better than you, you know, what you had done in your past. And I just felt so unworthy of that. And I said, yeah, okay. It, it, it can mean everybody else, but it can't mean me.

He didn't mean me, you know, cause I had a pretty rough upbringing and stuff.

Uh, that was definitely a sign that God was working on you because that's the truth. None.

Of us are worthy of it. Yeah. And then, then one day I was in the service and, you know, Pastor Barker was preaching and, uh, the light bulb went off and, uh, and I knew right then and there, I remember where I was sitting.

I don't remember what day it was that I know where I was sitting in the church. And, and, uh, I said, yeah, it means me. And it hit me that, uh, my trying to wait to get saved until I was good enough was sinful.

And at that moment, I, I, I, I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior. I apologize for trying to do it on my own. And I accepted that free grip gift of grace that, uh, that Jesus did gave to me. And, and, uh, it was not long after that, Chris, and, uh, you know, we got attacked on nine 11 and God used that new, new Christian to, to go down to the world trade center and, uh, rescue two officers.

And, uh, backing up a little bit, when did you first begin to believe that you wanted to join the military and the Marines specifically? Well, that, that was something I probably always.

Knew that was not, not necessarily join the Marines, but join the military. My, my dad was a sailor and, you know, I admired my dad. I love my daddy. I had a world of respect for him. And, uh, I just figured someday I would, you know, follow in his footsteps and join the Navy.

And, uh, back in, I guess, early 75, I went down to, uh, my local recruiting offices, armed forces recruiting center. And unfortunately they didn't have a Navy recruiter there. They had, uh, army air force and Marines.

And I walked into the army recruiting office and said, uh, I want to join the Navy. And he said, well, you got to go downtown the Pittsburgh map station. That's the only Navy recruiter around, the closest one around.

And I said, okay. And I, I walked out and he didn't try to recruit me. And as I was walking by Chris, there was a, the hatch was open on the Marine recruiting office. I think he had that, his glass up against that, the bulkhead there.

And he must've been listening because as I walked by, he said, uh, he said, Hey, young man, you want to join the Navy? And I said, yes, sir. And he said, come on in here. And he showed me the big seal of the Marine Corps was on the back wall.

And he goes, you see this? He says, department of the Navy, United States Marine Corps. And I said, oh, okay. And he, I walked in and he pitched the Navy, the Marine Corps to me and showed me, you know, bootcamp films and that challenged me.

And I said, well, this looks like it'd be even more fun than the Navy. And so, uh, I remember going home and telling my dad and I said, my dad, I'm joining the Navy. Oh no, you didn't, you dummy. And, uh, but then, you know, after I graduated Chris and, uh, my dad was very proud of me and he saw, he saw the change in me.

That's what I needed. I needed to join the Marine Corps.

And so you joined the Marines and, uh, this, uh, led you to a point where you would already, you had left active duty by the time that a 9 -11 occurred, correct?

Yeah. I was off. Uh, I was, I was out of the reserves, out of active duty.

I was off contract. And, uh, what were you doing as a living at that time?

At that time I was working, uh, for Deloitte and Touche. I was a securities auditor. I audited Merrill Lynch and some other mid-tier broker dealers and banks. And my office, uh, was normally out of the two world financial center.

Uh, the world financial center complex was connected to the North tower, uh, by a skywalk. And every morning for five and a half years before the attack, uh, I would take a train in from Long Island, uh, to, uh, Penn station, then take, uh, usually the A train or the E train down to the world trade center.

And then I, you know, that let you out right there at the world trade center under the underground complex. And, and I would, uh, uh, walk up through the North tower across the skywalk into the world financial center.

So my workplace, uh, like I said, for five and a half years was, uh, right down there at the world trade center area. That was my front yard. Uh, but two weeks before the attack, uh, I was called up to my firm's national office.

Uh, well, it was a couple of months actually before the tax. I went up there for a two week temporary assignment supposedly. Uh, and, uh, while I was up there, they liked my work and asked me if I would, uh, consider staying on in this management development program, which was a very coveted program that the firm had for, you know, the cream of the crop.

Uh, you, you put you on partner track, you go to national office, you get the exposure and a national office function. And then you go back to your practice office and you're the resident expert and whatever you learned at national office.

And you're, like I said, on partner track. And, and, uh, that was just being handed to me. And I told the, when the senior manager offered it to me the first time I said no, and then he offered it two more times.

And I said, no, and I wasn't interested because I lived on Long Island and I was only supposed to be up there for two weeks. And, you know, it would separate from my wife and, you know, we were struggling through some issues at the time.

And, uh, uh, I remember going home after, and I says, she says, how was your day? And I said, well, you know, that senior manager offered me this management development program for the third time today.

And I told her, I says, it's this, you know, I told her about the program and she says, are you crazy? She says, say yes. And what would you say? No. And I said, well, I got a lot going on right now. And she says, just tell him you want it.

And I said, well, he's I've already told him no three times. I said, I'm not going to go now. I'll say yes. Ask him. I says, I tell you what, if he asked me again, I'll say yes. And I went into work the next day and sure enough, he came over for the fourth time and he says, Dave, I really like you to, you know, join this, uh, stay on here in a management development program.

And I said, well, my wife said, if you were to ask me again, I had to say yes. So I'm probably the only one in the history. So she's your drill sergeant, man. I'm probably the only one in the history of the MDP program at Deloitte that, uh, reluctantly entered into it because everybody else is very competitive.

You have to write something. Why do you want to, you know, be in leadership at Deloitte and this and that. But, uh, had I, and I prayed about it, you know, going up there, Chris, cause, uh, it was relocating, you know, there was a relocation package involved in it.

My wife stayed on Long Island and I relocated and eventually settled into Stanford, uh, the town of Stanford, Connecticut. But, uh, that was a two year program, you know, so I didn't enter into it easily.

But had I not taken that program because now that put me in Wilton when the attacks occurred at the World Trade Center and knowing that, you know, being a Marine for at that point, 12 and a half years and being a police officer for a few years in Pittsburgh and a deputy sheriff down in Florida.

And I knew where I would be, you know, my inclination would be to go across the street and help the NYPD cops and the Port Authority and the firemen evacuate the buildings. Uh, you know, so it was by the grace of God, I'm sitting here talking to you today because God relocated me on that assignment up in Wilton, uh, after turning it down three times.

So you would have been most certainly in that building if you had gone to work that day, if you weren't sick or something, you would have been in the, uh, the towers or close enough where you could have been killed easily.

For sure. And so, um, let me, uh, first of all, before we go any further, I want to announce our email address. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

C H R I S A R N Z E N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state of residence and your country of residence. If you live outside of the USA, and if for some reason you feel compelled to remain anonymous, you may do so if it makes you feel more comfortable.

But otherwise, please give us your first name and city and state and country if outside the USA. And by the way, Kevin Girard, our co-host, you could feel free to ask a question as well. Anytime the moment strikes you, you don't have to wait for me to gesture you or anything because we didn't really have time to prepare about the program beforehand.

So I didn't want you to think that you would be impolite by chiming in with a question. So you hear that the towers have collapsed. Now, was it your sister that told you that or did you see.

That on a television set? I went into work a little early that morning, I think at eight o 'clock and my phone rang right after the north tower got struck. And it was my sister from Pittsburgh. She was on her exercise bike working out and watching CNN and they had come on and they were showing live footage of the tower engulfed in smoke.

And they were saying at the time that they thought a small plane had accidentally flew into the tower. And I looked out my window, Wilton, Connecticut, you know, as the crow flies is about maybe 45 miles from the World Trade Center.

And I saw a clear sunny day. And I said, Joy, well, there's no way that any plane accidentally flew into those towers. And if it was a small plane, it wouldn't engulf the entire top of the plane like building in smoke, like you're saying.

And she said, well, what could it be? And I said, well, I think it's probably a hijacked commercial airliner. And she said, who would do that? And I said, well, the Arab terrorists, they have been threatened.

They tried to blow up the North Tower in 93. And my firm had all of a lot of our people in those floors, they were one of the ones that came down, you know, that dark ladder well, because the building had no power, you know, with their faces covered with smoke.

And it was after that Deloitte made a decision to move across the street into the World Financial Center because of the attack on him in 93. And at the time, I was listening to a lot of talk radio. And, you know, I remember on talk radio in New York City, New York's got a big talk radio, you know, two big flagship AM stations.

And they were saying that that very week, that black blind shake or the blind shake was supposed to be sentenced, the one that tried to blow it up in 93. And they had threatened if you sentence him, we're going to bring down the towers.

You know, basically, they're going to complete the job. And somebody had said that they had heard or read somewhere that one of the ways they were going to do it was to fly hijacked airliners into the towers.

So, you know, that threat was actually made. And so when she told me that, I said, well, they did it, you know.

And I just like, wow, how dare they, you know. So, how long did it take? What length of time went by before you said to yourself, I've got to get over there?

Well, after she told me that, I gathered up my colleagues in my group there and I told them about World Trade Center being hit and on fire and what I thought it was. And I went back. We all went back to our offices.

And as soon as I was in there, maybe like five minutes, the phone rang again. And she said, Dave, you're right. I just was watching on TV. A commercial jetliner just flew into the South Tower. Now both of them are on fire.

And so I called my colleagues together again and I'm thinking, well, this is it, you know. And I said, well, you know, both towers are on fire. It's been confirmed a hijacked commercial airliner. I told everyone, I don't know if you realize it, but as if at this very moment right now, we're at war.

And I told my boss that I was going to join the Marine Corps, go back in the Marine Corps. I said, you might not see me for a while. You just knew right away. I'm going to go down to the Trade Center and then I'm going to join.

I'm going to go back in the Marine Corps. But before I left, I went to my office, Chris, and I closed the door and I went to God in earnest prayer for maybe an hour or two. And I started, I was thinking of trying to put myself in those buildings to understand what were the conditions that those people were experiencing, you know, being in a building trapped above where the planes hit.

And that really, really ripped my heart out, Chris, because I was thinking, you know, when you're cooking a turkey and you open the oven door, you set the heat for 350, 400, and when that blast of air hits you in the face, and if you touch the pan, how you get burnt, and it's got to be like that inside those towers.

In fact, if you could pick up right there, and let's go to a commercial break, and we'll be right back after these messages. Don't forget where you left off, David, because that was a really crucial point that you reached.

And we're going to be right back after these messages, so don't go away. Attention coin collectors and investors, Long Island Galleries of Wading River, New York has brilliant uncirculated 19th century Morgan silver dollars for only $54 per coin with free shipping and handling for a limited time.

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Tired of bop store Christianity? Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in-depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island. Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times. 631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us. That's wrbc .us. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in, and by the way, we apologize to those of you listening live that we did go off the air momentarily. And we are back on the air now. And those technical problems are just a part of life and live radio.

And we thank Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York for alerting us to the fact very quickly that we had gone off the air. And we trust that you are listening to us now. But for those of you who just tuned us in, I am interviewing once again after, I don't know, probably somewhere close to eight, nine years.

We have not had David on the program. And of course, Iron Sharpens Iron was on a three-and-a-half-year hiatus, four-year hiatus. And then we just relaunched last year. So it's been a while since we've had David Carnes on the program.

But I'm so delighted that providentially he was actually in town in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. The first couple of times I interviewed David, we were at our Long Island, New York studios for WNYG Radio. But now that we're broadcasting from Carlisle, David happened to be in town speaking at the United States Army War College at a prayer breakfast.

And in fact, before I return to David, let me just get one of the gentlemen who's running the prayer, who ran the prayer breakfast at the United States Army War College. Brother John, why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us about this morning and why you folks over at this Christian Businessmen's Association that you're a part of, why do you run this prayer.

Breakfast and so on? Yeah, this is John Hoberly. I'm a retired Army officer, and I retired after my faculty experience on the Army War College faculty here in Carlisle. The Christian Businessmen's Connection, a couple of people, primarily Peter Ostrowski, had a vision to start a program here in Carlisle and a community prayer breakfast in commemoration of the 9 -11 experience in 2001.

And we did that, the inaugural event was at the, we moved it to the Army War College because we wanted to make it a complete community, Carlisle, the community of Carlisle, Carlisle Barracks, and the Army War College.

And so we did that last year, and we had about 169 people show up. And so we were energized to do it again this year. And this year we had about 100 people show up, and our vision was to, obviously the word of God is primary emphasis, but we were trying to reach across the entire spectrum of mankind.

And so we decided to do it the second time, as I said. And so we had the prayer breakfast this morning, and we had Peter Ostrowski was the Master of Ceremonies, we had the Command Sergeant Major from the Army War College tell a little bit of what we do at the Army War College, and then he led us in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Then we had a prayer by Steve Bloom, who is a representative in the area here from the Army. And then, of course, we had Dave Carnes tell his story for about 30 minutes. And then we had Dave Belinsky and Dave Waterman tell what the CBMC Regional and local reps do.

And then we showed just a bit of the World Trade Center and what experience that was.

The clip from the movie.

A clip from the movie. Oliver Stone movie. And I highly recommend everybody watch that. And especially, I've watched it four times in the last several weeks, but the best is the part by Oliver Stone where he goes footage by footage and scene by scene through the entire movie.

And it's really a real meaningful experience to do that. And then we had a wrap up by both Art Pace, who used to be a chaplain here at the Army War College, and talk about his experience a little bit with 9 -11.

And then we, as a chaplain on active duty, and then we had John Kellerson, who is a professor of ethics at the Army War College. And he was also chosen by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to be the liaison officer directly with the New York Fire Department.

And he did that for four years from 9 -11 onward. And so we wrapped up with prayer and it was a unique experience for everyone who attended.

Well, thanks, John. And really appreciated you and Peter putting this together. And I was so delighted to have Dave Carnes in town providentially so we could have him back on Iron Sherpa's Iron live in the studio.

It's always much nicer to have a guest in the studio than it is doing it by phone. And also wanted to be able to have this time of fellowship with my brother, Dave, after so many years. So before the break, you were comparing what it must be like in the Twin Towers at that time to actually an oven, you know, baking a turkey or so on.

You were like really giving a vivid description there before we went to the break.

Yeah, just trying to imagine what it was like inside the building, Chris, with, you know, a jet plane full of jet fuel exploding inside the building. You know that that would have to be incredibly intense heat.

And that fireball was contained inside the building and, you know, all that fuel would be spilled in the surrounding areas and burning. So that would quickly heat up the inside of the towers above where the planes hit.

And even below because the jet fuel probably, you know, went down to the lower floors and, you know, that fire was raging and leaking into those compartments. And the World Trade Center had windows. There was no open windows.

People were kicking and breaking the windows open. You remember, I see them after 9 -11, I saw footage of them hanging outside. They had kicked out. The windows were hanging outside because the heat was probably extremely unbearable.

They probably couldn't even breathe inside that.

Building. So you could even understand somebody leaping to their death? Oh, for sure. You know,.

If you were in there, would you rather suffer that incredible pain or would you rather just leap out and cool yourself down and get it over quickly? You know, I could fully understand why people were doing that.

I mean, the worst way to die is in a fire. I think the pain is just unbearable. So, you know, that was the condition and that really ripped my heart out. And I I asked God, I said, God, please, please use me.

This, our worst fears of this great nation have come, has happened today. Our shores were attacked and in a terrible, terrible way. And, you know, a cowardly way, innocent people in buildings. And so I said, God, please use me.

If it means my life today, I want, I want to help in any way I can. And so, and I prayed like that. And I think God meant, knew that I meant business. And he put it on my heart to go down there. And I would, he would lead me to whatever he would want me to do if there was anyone needing rescue.