A Blast from the Past: February 13, 2008 Show with William Shishko on “Suicide: A Christian Response”

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The views and opinions expressed on this show are those of the host and guests, and not necessarily the views of staff and management of WNYG.

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Welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron, the only daily live broadcast in the New York metropolitan and greater

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Long Island area on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians have a platform to address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27, 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and direct you to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon, Long Island, New York, Connecticut, and those listening internationally over the internet, this is

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Chris Arnzen. We have a very serious and sensitive subject that we're going to be addressing today.

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It is suicide, a Christian response, and our guest to discuss this topic is

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Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square. I really strongly urge you, if you have loved ones that you know have been contemplating suicide or have talked about it, said that they have been thinking about it,

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I urge you to have them listen to this program, either at 1440 AM on the dial, if they live on Long Island, the

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that's S -H -A -R -P -E -N -S -dot -O -R -G. Why not pick up the phone during the station break and call your family, friends, loved ones, and tell them to tune into this very important program, even if they are grieving the loss of someone who has already committed suicide.

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631 -321 -WNYG is our phone number. You can call with any question regarding suicide, and if it makes you feel more comfortable to remain anonymous, please feel free to do so.

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631 -321 -WNYG, 631 -321 -WNYG, don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages with Pastor Bill Shishko and our subject,

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WNYG, the spirit of New York. Mark Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron.

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And if you just tuned us in, our subject today is a very sensitive and very important subject, suicide, a

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Christian's response. And to discuss this is my very dear friend, Pastor Bill Shishko of the

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, who is also a part of the visiting faculty to Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina.

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And Bill Shishko is one of my very favorite guests. That's why I'm so delighted that after a long absence because of his busy schedule, he is finally back in our studio.

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Welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Bill Shishko. Good to be here. I wish the topic were a happier one, but I'm thankful to be with you and with your guests.

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Yes, and it's obviously a very important subject because I think all of us either have a close friend or loved one who has committed suicide or we know someone who has a loved one who has taken their own life.

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But how serious is this problem with suicide? Yeah, of course, even the name suicide, just to slay oneself, communicates how serious this is.

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It just shivers up your spine to hear it. I find the statistics to be amazing on this, Chris.

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Actually, the official final data we have for suicides in the U .S. is complete as of 2005.

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In the nation in 2005, there were 32 ,637 suicides.

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That's 89 .4 a day, an amazing number. Of that, and I found this most interesting, 25 ,907 were males and 6 ,730 were females.

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Of those, over 80%, almost 81 % were whites, 29 ,527 people.

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Of that, most were white males in that category. There's an average of one person every 16 .1

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minutes that kills himself or herself. These things are just shuddering. It's the 11th ranking cause of death in the world.

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Just a few minutes. Suicide ranks 11th as a cause of death, while homicide ranks 15th.

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That's just stunning. For every actual death by suicide, there were 25 attempts.

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That breaks down to 100 to 200 attempts for every suicide among the young and about four attempts for every actual suicide among the elderly.

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This I found interesting as a pastor and in light of the way you introduce things, because my ministry rather obviously tends to be more with people affected by suicides.

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Each suicide intimately affects at least six other people. I would regard that as kind of a low figure.

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People are fascinated by states. Very interesting, the number one ranked state for suicide is

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Montana. Number two, Nevada. Number three, Alaska. Four, New Mexico.

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Five, Wyoming. And six, Colorado. We would tend to think here in the metropolitan area that New York and New Jersey would be at the top.

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Actually at the bottom, amazingly. New York is 49th out of 51 states, plus the

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District of Columbia. New Jersey, 50. I think the reason for that is that there's actually a surprisingly low rate of suicide among immigrants.

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Among blacks, among Latinos, among Asians. Far and away, the great preponderance of suicide is among whites.

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Of course, because of our large immigrant population here, that affects those statistics. Especially in the young.

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This is just chilling when you hear this. Suicide is the third leading cause of death for 10 to 24 year olds.

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It's third only after car accidents and then homicide among the youth.

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Between 1962 and 1996, nothing for a sociologist to consider in that watershed period of change in our culture.

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The teen suicide went up by 155 % over that time.

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The evidence indicates, as I mentioned, that for every teen suicide, there could be between 100 and 200 attempts at a suicide.

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Which means there's a potential for some 2 million teen suicide attempts each year.

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And not just youth, but police and firemen and soldiers and airline pilots and students are those that are particularly prone to be affected by temptations to commit suicide.

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I'd heard dentists was a very large category. I don't know if that's true, but I'd heard that at one point. Yeah, interesting.

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These are the ones that have come in and will be true. Anyone, I think, in a high pressure position will be more prone for various reasons to commit suicide.

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Did that survey have any percentages of a breakdown of the religions involved? It didn't.

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It'd be interesting to do that. It's a little bit difficult to compile all of those things. So what are some of the precipitating factors involved?

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Yeah, and I appreciate the term, Chris. It's very important for your listeners to realize these are not the causes of suicide.

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The root cause of suicide is sin, and we'll deal with that a little bit later in the program. Precipitating factors, at least as I've thought them through, basically you've got four of them here.

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One, and I think this is, and these interpenetrate, incidentally, is some sense of unendurable pain due to a loss, either a psychological pain due to a loss, loss of a loved one, loss of finances, or real physical pain.

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This can come with terminal cancer and so on. The pain is perceived as ruining a person's life.

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There is a sense of powerlessness. There's a sense of guilt. There's a sense of shame. There's a sense of abandonment.

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Again, these things are not compartmentalized. They interweave. I think it's important for your listeners to realize the two words or things that come up in one who is contemplating suicide.

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Number one is the word hopelessness, and number two is the word can't. I can't get out of this. I can't solve the problem.

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When either of those words are used or the concepts are used, there's that sense of some unendurable pain due to loss.

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The second one that I must mention and just warn people about, particularly in light of the recent death of Heath Ledger, which was of course regarded as an accidental death, is the abuse of medication and other substances.

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There's no way I can warn people enough about the abuse of medication and other substances, but even that's not in itself a cause because people try to cope with problems by medication.

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All you've got to do is read this tragic story of Britney Spears to see this. People try to cope with problems by way of medication.

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I'm not against, incidentally, the use of antidepressants and so on with reason, but what happens then is they try to cope with problems by medication.

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The medication doesn't quote -unquote work, and then people, for whatever reasons, will abuse prescription and or non -prescription medication and or drugs and or alcohol.

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That is lethal in itself. In fact, I've heard on Long Island that young people will do this. They call it a trail mix.

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Even if you're not contemplating suicide, that can be lethal in itself, but for our topic today, that becomes severely mood -altering when you're mixing these different things.

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Then suicide comes, suicide then because of a low mood, someone can be more prone to commit suicide.

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I heard this morning about what was called a steroid -induced depression. You've got to be aware of these things.

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Just so your people know, Chris, the strongest risk factors for attempted suicide in adults, one is depression that we'll come to later, two is alcohol abuse, three is drug abuse, especially cocaine, and four is separation and divorce.

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All of those things can precipitate that. Strongest risk factors for attempted suicide in young people are depression, alcohol, drug use, and then aggressive or disruptive or what's often called antisocial behavior, such as you've seen on campuses.

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Then there's situational crises, finances. You think of the stories. I've heard somewhat overdone, but in 1929, people jumping out of windows when their stocks just went through the cellar, but severe financial crises, something we should keep in mind with the housing market the way it is.

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Serious personal illness or the illness of a family member can precipitate thoughts about depression and ending it all.

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Unresolved grief at the loss of a family member, tragic life events, a rape, a divorce, or not infrequently a suicide by someone that you know that will prey on you, a string of failures, students pushed to succeed, and they don't measure up over and over again, or they don't make the soccer team or something.

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Then public disgrace or exposure due to illegal or immoral activity can prompt suicide.

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Then the last is just, and again, these things all interpenetrate because all suicide comes from disturbed thinking.

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1 John 3 and verse 4, John says, sin is anomia. It's an anomaly.

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It doesn't make sense. Ultimately, when you're dealing with suicide, it does not make sense.

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When we deal with how you help people, you have to keep that in mind. People have certain felt needs that are thwarted, and then that loss leads to hopelessness.

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Hopelessness means I can't get out, and people can be on that downward trajectory toward depression.

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But I want to emphasize, none of these things is the cause of suicide.

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Life -dominating desires for things that we lose make us feel hopeless or want to give up and end it all.

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When we come to actually helping people who are tempted to commit suicide, you have to deal with that life -dominating desire, even for lawful things, that when taken away can cause a person to think his life is worthless and will want to end it all.

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And obviously, we as Christians have to be very balanced and careful when addressing this issue because we don't want to, on one hand, fall into the error of Rome that says that those who commit suicide, if they don't live long enough to receive the so -called sacrament of penance before they die, they will certainly be in hell, offering no hope or peace for those who grieve.

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And you even have many Arminian Protestants and some Pentecostal groups that would say, if one were to commit suicide, he is definitely in hell since it is a sin you can't repent of.

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But then on the other extreme, because of the bankrupt gospel of modern evangelicalism, preaching an easy -believism and a gospel that does not necessitate repentance, you have some professing -to -be -Christian who are deluded, who take a false notion of peace in the thought of suicide.

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Sure. Or even thinking they're going to be better off because they're going to be in heaven. Yes. So what is your counsel to those comforting those who grieve over the loss of a loved one, especially if it is a

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Christian or professing -to -be -Christian who has committed suicide? Of course, that's a massive topic, and I know we've got a break coming up.

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So let me go back to what you mentioned before. People need to realize justification by faith alone in Christ alone means that the punishment for all of our sins, past, present, and future is taken by Christ, by His own death for His people on the cross.

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There are true Christians who can commit suicide. Later on, we can discuss a bit what can cause that.

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But it is absolutely false to say that if a person commits suicide, they must necessarily be in hell.

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On the other hand, it's hard to imagine a more serious sin with more serious consequences than for one to take his or her own life.

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Yes, and just as all Christians, when they are in a season of sin, should call into question their own election and salvation, one should seriously consider if you are thinking of taking your own life, am

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I a Christian? Will I really be in heaven if I do? Yeah, I think we have to keep in mind that, again, the fact that sin is an anomaly and suicide is irrational thinking.

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There are genuine Christians who, in not a few cases because of the use or abuse of medications, just become very, very confused in their thinking.

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Yes, and I recall a case, I don't know if you remember this, but probably about 15 years ago, perhaps a little bit longer, a very well -known

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Christian pastor, author, and evangelist, one that you and I both really respect and appreciate.

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His church was sued by a Roman Catholic couple whose son, who had been dealing with mental problems, his son converted, allegedly, and became a member of this pastor's church, and committed suicide later, and the

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Catholic family was suing the church because it taught justification by faith alone.

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And since the Catholics said that, according to their religion, one would certainly go to hell if they do that, and without that proclamation, the fear factor was removed from their son, so they were blaming the church for that.

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Now, that's another form of distorted thinking. Let me, though, respond, Chris, to your point about the impact on families, because as a pastor, this is where most of my dealings have come.

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I have dealt with people who have either attempted to commit suicide, and in a couple of cases have counseled people who eventually committed suicide, which is why the subject is so painful.

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However, the devastation that comes to those who remain is absolutely incalculable.

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Who do you blame? No one wants to blame the person who committed suicide, which means that inevitably a spouse, or children, or parents will get blamed at the very time.

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That is the last that they need to hear, is blame coming from people. The second thing is unresolved conflicts within a family will come up, and there is so much blame shifting that can come.

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Children who become aggravated with parents, parents who become aggravated with children, and you end up having an avalanche of difficulties to deal with.

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And then, in the third case, you have the individuals blaming themselves for all of these things.

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Within the circle of friends, there can be even that temptation to commit suicide.

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I can think of one case with a man who lost his spouse by suicide, that I had to ask the man shortly afterwards, was he himself tempted?

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It's important for your listeners to realize it is a myth to say you do not mention suicide, or be specific about it with people as you deal with them, because that might prompt them to commit suicide.

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Exactly the opposite is the case. We need to speak the truth in love, and deal with the issue, and find out where people's fears are.

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But more on that a little bit later in the program. Yes, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Bill Shishko about this very important issue of suicide, our number is 631 -321 -WNYG, 631 -321 -WNYG, and as I mentioned earlier, if it makes you feel more comfortable to remain anonymous, feel free to do so.

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Our guest today is Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Franklin Square, Long Island, New York.

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He's also a part of the visiting faculty at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina.

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Losing my tongue here. And he teaches pastoral theology there. But we are discussing suicide, a

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Christian response. And continue further about the role of depression and so forth.

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Yeah, Chris, depression today is an umbrella to cover almost everything, so that people can get medication.

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And we've got to be careful when we're dealing with suicide that we don't put it all under depression.

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Not everyone who commits suicide is depressed. People can commit suicide because of bitterness, because of anger, because they're being malicious to someone else, because they're not willing to forgive others, because of unresolved guilt.

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Sometimes they want to punish other people and will kill themselves. Or they just want to manipulate a situation.

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And in not a few cases, with all with the dramatic examples of people shooting up dorms and killing themselves, because sin perverts the way we think, there may even simply be the desire to get attention.

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And it's very important for your listeners to realize that not all depression is suicidal.

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And there are different levels of what historically has been called melancholy. And in fact, not all, quote unquote, depression is necessarily bad.

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Depression itself, or however we categorize it, can have benefits to it. But it's when we talk about clinical depression or depression that dominates us, that kind of thing can be dangerous.

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But even that is not always suicidal. And also so important for your listeners to know, the time of coming out of a serious depression may be a person's most vulnerable time if he or she has contemplated suicide.

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Very depressed people, they don't think about killing themselves and planning things. They're just too depressed to do that.

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Coming out of it, there has got to be a monitoring of things, especially with changes in medication where things have to be monitored.

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And I would add in this, Chris, we've got to keep in mind as Christians, there is a very active devil at work.

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And he is a slanderer. He's a murderer. He's a liar. He's a deceiver. He's a destroyer.

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And you see all of those things almost in the most heightened expression when it comes to suicide.

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There seems to be a romanticized version of suicide in films, literature, and music that may be especially appealing to teenagers and even more so under the influence of drugs.

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But I can even recall as a young man, one of my favorite groups at the time was a rock group called

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Blue Oyster Cult. And they had a song, Don't Fear the Reaper. Romeo and Juliet are together for eternity.

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We can be like they are. Don't fear the reaper. That can be a very dangerous thing when you start viewing suicide in such a ridiculous fashion.

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Exactly. And remember that the devil will pervert the way we think in our culture. We're to be renewed by the transformation, transformed by the renewing of our minds.

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And all of that, of course, is warped thinking. Parents do need to be careful of music that is very gloomy and very depressive and in some cases can even exalt suicides.

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I mean, all these are precipitating factors. I think, Chris, I know calls will be coming in, but very little actually is done on looking at suicide and suicidal tendencies from a

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Christian perspective. And the Bible does speak sparsely, but it does speak about suicide.

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You have Saul who wanted to be put out of his misery in battle rather than be put to death by the

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Philistine. You have Ahithophel who set his house in order and killed himself because his advice wasn't heeded by the king.

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And, of course, the most dramatic one is Judas. But what we often miss is the account in Job, in Job 2, 9 and 10, where Job's, here's

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Job going, I mean, you talk about a man in a situation that seems hopeless with virtually everything taken away from him except his carping wife.

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And she says, curse God and die. And I think the proper understanding of that is put yourself out of your misery.

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So there she's basically telling him just kill yourself. So the scriptures do deal with that. You have to keep in mind that suicide, and that's why

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I said these precipitating factors are not causes, suicide is a profound problem of the human heart.

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A heart deceived, a heart misled, a heart that wants to control, but it is a profound problem of the human heart.

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And I think you can break that down into four things. One, there is a profound loss of gospel grace and mercy and saving power.

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God has become very small. The old writers would speak of suicide as practical atheism.

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God's not in the picture. He's not able to help. And when we come to dealing with it, you've got to bring

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God into the picture. God is seen as only a vengeful God. Suicidal people will, when they read the gospels, will only pick out warnings and they don't have any concept of God as a

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God of wrath. They'll believe that if they live, God's not only going to damn them, but damn the spouse, damn the children, that kind of stuff.

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So there's a profound loss of gospel grace, mercy, and saving power. Second, there is in suicide a profound self -centeredness.

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There's a loss of concern for the consequences of those who are left behind, not even in the picture.

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And there's tunnel vision about reality, as all self -centeredness brings.

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You only focus on yourself. And because you only focus on yourself, it's the obverse of a world without God.

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Everything looks hopeless. Number three, there is a profound resistance to the

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Spirit's work. And not only in a believer, but there's restraining work in an unbeliever as well, where even unbelievers know, because of the works of the law written on their heart, and then the

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Spirit working in his general operations, you don't kill yourself. But that's resisted. Or in a believer, you resist the fact that you are bought with a price, that you are the

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Lord's, you're to glorify God in your body. And see, that's why we see instinctively how serious this is.

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And then number four, there is a profoundly misguided act of supposed human autonomy.

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And I think, Chris, that's why, particularly in white American culture and in our land, we want to control our destinies.

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I am captain of my soul, master of my fate. And there are people who even say, that is why

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I am going to plan my own death. And of course, that's why a Jack Kevorkian can get a hearing with people.

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Or if you go back to the 1960s, Ernest Hemingway, who was the epitome of a man who was going to control his own destiny.

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And when he found out, I believe he had cancer or something, he went down in his basement, took his favorite shotgun, put two bullets right through his throat, and blew his brains out.

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And so these are cultural things that create that confusion of mind. But ultimately, these are profound problems of the heart.

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Yes, some have the very grossly misguided notion that this at times can be a selfless act, or even heroic in some way, that my family will be better off without me, my wife will be better off without me, my kids will be better off without me, et cetera.

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But this is really the height of selfishness. Oh, exactly right. And it is. And when you deal with this, you see the consequences of that.

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Yes, we're going to be going to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air, our number is 631 -321 -WNYG.

30:22

631 -321 -WNYG. And remember, you may remain anonymous if you choose to. 631 -321 -WNYG.

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We'll be right back. Are you a loved one, a friend, or someone you know at church going through a tough financial time because of an injury on the job?

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Welcome back. I want to remind all of you about something very special happening tomorrow night at the cottage at the

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Christian school, is having their fundraising dinner on the theme Love and Faith.

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You will be serenaded by the beautiful music of Rob and Patty Mead of the group

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Music from the Heart, and also from the Paul Paoli Band, a well -known Christian group here in Long Island.

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I've interviewed Paul Paoli on this program and is a very talented singer and musician.

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In addition to being an author, he wrote a book on his conversion from Catholicism. But speaking at the dinner will be

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He is the pastor of the North Shore Community Church in Oyster Bay, Long Island, and he will be speaking on the theme

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That's tomorrow night, Valentine's Day, 7 to 10 p .m. at the

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Milleridge Inn in Jericho, Long Island, 516 -379 -ABCD. We do have a caller on the line.

33:03

We have Marco in Long Beach, Long Island. Welcome to Orange Represents Orange, Marco. Hello. Thank you.

33:10

I was just listening and I actually have tried suicide.

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For me, the Christian standpoint of it is that it's kind of like murder.

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You're trying to kill yourself. You're not trying to kill someone else. God puts everything into perspective where it says about death, death of a person or death of yourself.

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I realize that God has a purpose for each and every one of us. This is not just for you and just you, it's for your listeners as well.

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Life is something that God has in store for each and every one of us no matter what it is.

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For me, I'm also a musician and I've gone through suicide. It's just something that God wants us to have life so we could spread joy and cheer to everyone else.

34:18

I appreciate the comments, but do you have a specific question that you wanted to ask Pastor Bill? Actually, no.

34:26

I just wanted to make that comment. Okay. Well, thank you very much for calling. You've already received one of our free

34:31

Bibles, correct? Yes, sir. Yes, I thought I recognized your name. Well, thank you very much for calling.

34:38

Obviously, we would pray that you never have those thoughts again. I pray so, too. I hope you have a pastor that you are communicating with, correct?

34:45

Yes, sir. I do. Oh, good. Well, God bless you. Do you have any words of comment on his comment?

34:52

No, just what you said. You always take any statement about suicide seriously.

34:58

You look into patterns and so on, but the important thing is to have someone to speak with and to speak with it.

35:04

In fact, in people that have suicidal tendencies, this is a case in which with wise guidance, really talking through a lot of these things can help lance a lot of those wounds.

35:17

I think we have to be clear to distinguish between suicide and a genuine act of heroism that will certainly lead to death, such as somebody involved in the military.

35:31

I have even heard some dare to say Christ committed suicide on the cross because he willingly gave up his own life, but that is a nonsensical view of it, correct?

35:40

You can stretch the definition so you can say that every non -believer is committing suicide.

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He is wantonly flying against all good things to help him in killing himself. You have to be careful about stretching things.

35:53

Certainly, our Lord did not commit suicide. He was put to death by the power of others. Suicide is putting yourself to death by your own hand.

36:02

I think, obviously, your people want to know how I would like to recommend the only little

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Christian resource that deals with the subject, Jeffrey S. Black's Suicide Understanding and Intervening.

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It is one of the resources for Changing Lives series that is put out by the

36:21

Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation. I found his little treatment helpful, PNR Publishing.

36:27

Obviously, people want to know how they can help. First, be aware of the warning signs.

36:35

If a person has a history of problems, like the previous caller, you never take those kinds of things lightly.

36:42

People begin to decline seriously in performance of some sort, either in school or in duties that they have.

36:50

When there has been a recent traumatic event, a death, a divorce, a separation, that kind of thing, irrational outbursts and irrational behavior may lead to suicide or longstanding depression that gets worse, changing in eating and sleeping habits.

37:10

People don't get sleep well. Their perceptions are distorted.

37:16

Certainly, talk about suicide or dry runs, so to speak, are always things to watch for.

37:23

The drugs and alcohol and their interaction, withdrawal from society. Again, that sense of hopelessness and I can't, those are the things to look for.

37:33

The layperson, so to speak, can be of such help with this just by listening to and empathizing with people.

37:43

By empathize, you try to understand the person as best as possible. Empathize, you listen enough that you can say you are to some extent entering into the shoes of that other person.

37:58

Get as full a picture as possible. How longstanding is this?

38:04

When does this come? Is there medication that the person is taking? Those kinds of things.

38:11

See, we live, Chris, I'm not telling you anything we don't know. We live in a fallen world and God's providences can be very, very hard and sin really fouls things up and Satan is really at work and he is a destroyer.

38:25

You have to talk with people enough to get a sense of the interplay of things in that.

38:31

Then, help the person see the connection between the pain he or she is experiencing, again, pain because of a loss, pain because they feel something's hopeless.

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It's a real pain that they feel and what that person's, we'll call it a felt need really is.

38:49

Let me give you some example. A person says, I don't want to live because I can't bear the pain. I can't bear the fear.

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I can't bear the cancer. I can't bear the thought of the suffering. That's a real felt need that person has and yet what you have to do is let people see now this is what you're struggling with.

39:08

It's not that things are hopeless. It's not that you can't deal with it. It's that you have a fear of this pain that's going to come or suffering or what's going to happen because people will get their feelings all balled up and you've got to help them sort it out.

39:24

I don't want to live because I always fail. I always since I go, well, what do you fail over? You don't always.

39:30

You let them see that again, it's not hopeless. There's certain areas where they have struggled and not done as well as they thought.

39:37

Why do you believe it's hopeless? Why do you believe you can't do? And just often Chris, helping people see the distinction between the pain they're experiencing and what they're going through can help them with it.

39:52

And then, and this is so important, graciously question the person's irrational way of thinking.

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Don't say you're thinking irrationally. Let me just ask you some questions just to get you thinking about this.

40:06

How have you if it's guilt, tremendous sense of guilt, it could be guilt because you've got a spouse who committed suicide.

40:12

How have you dealt with guilt and a sense of failure in the past? Get them away from thinking about guilt and failure with respect to this particular thing that looks hopeless.

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You can't bring the loved one back. How have you dealt with guilt and with failure in the past? Get them thinking that way.

40:30

How has the Lord been merciful and helped you before? How has he gotten you out of binds before?

40:36

How has he given you hope before? How has the Lord, now Chris here we're dealing with believers. I mean ultimately when you're dealing with an unbeliever you can understand hopelessness.

40:44

They don't have that hope. Even there you're going to want to point them to the resources they have in Christ. What makes you believe your failures are so big that they're beyond God's power?

40:56

And don't taunt them. What makes you believe your failures are so big they're beyond God's power? But let me ask you, what is it that makes you believe your package of difficulties is so great

41:07

God can't deal with it? Get them thinking. See because they're thinking irrationally. You're helping them to think rationally.

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But the bottom line is what is the person thinking and remind them they are always dealing with a gracious God.

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I can't overstate that. When you're dealing with people they're alive, they're breathing, there's the gospel, there's grace, there's

41:29

God's power and mercy that's there and you want to bowl them over with that throughout.

41:35

I mean this may be the means by which an unbeliever actually comes to Christ. And then explore why the person feels hopeless or why he or she believes a situation is impossible.

41:47

That's very important. Why do you believe this is impossible? Well and they'll say well I've tried to deal with this thing for 20 years.

41:53

Well let's discuss what you've done. Let's discuss how it could be done differently. And you're communicating the fact that there's hope and you're with them in this.

42:03

Now we're going to work through this. Some people have even said sign a contract with someone that you that you're going to they're going to go through these things with you and so on.

42:11

Remind people hopeless is not in the Christian vocabulary.

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For the Christian hopeless is not a word. He's the God of hope. God works all things together for good to those who love

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God and are the called according to his purpose. We're more than conquerors through Christ who loved us.

42:30

In Christ there is no such thing as hopelessness. And perhaps after the next break that comes we can deal a bit with suffering.

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Letting people know that all suffering is a purpose. But then help the person separate the pain he or she is experiencing from the real need.

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I miss my wife. I can't live without my wife. I can't live without my mother.

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Or I can't live without my daughter. Whatever it would be. See there's a pain the person has. They think the need is a created thing and it isn't.

43:05

Because the Christian can live with all things being taken away from you. You know Habakkuk's language.

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Even though all things be taken away from me. Yet I will ride on the high places in the Lord Jesus.

43:17

The failure in school for young people. Young people are so bound up in their identity connected with their successes.

43:26

And to let them see that we are the Christians or the Lord's children whether they succeed or fail. But it takes time.

43:32

You've got to work people to it. And follow up and link people like the previous caller or as you mentioned with a pastor.

43:39

Link them up with those. If you're dealing with it yourself a pastor certainly a medical doctor if there's if there's deep depression.

43:47

Link them up with people who can help. And even say hey I'm willing to go with you to pastor so and so or doctor so and so.

43:53

But I think as we're dealing with a matter of the heart a wise pastor and not all pastors are wise dealing with these things you might ask.

44:00

Have you had some experience with this? But these things need to be dealt with on a heart level. Yeah I guess one of the scariest parts about the subject is that I've heard from the loved ones of someone who did commit suicide that they had no clue.

44:16

There wasn't any signs that they could detect. The person wasn't even depressed sometimes. And sometimes

44:22

I've heard there's even a euphoria the day or so before one commits suicide where there's a giddiness and exuberant joy it seems.

44:31

I've heard that a sign to look for can be if somebody's life is normally chaotic and all of a sudden they're getting everything in order and they're getting organized and seemingly taking care of things uncharacteristically.

44:46

And also if someone gives you a beloved pet or something like that or puts the pet to sleep.

44:53

I have a friend whose father committed suicide and he put his dog to sleep which had no illness or anything.

45:01

So I guess those are things to be very watch for. Does it mean if those things happen that a person is contemplating suicide?

45:09

And of course hindsight gives us all 20 -20 vision. We'll see these things afterwards. But certainly any behavior of dwelling on death.

45:16

Comments like boy this would be quite a place for suicide. Or you know I've thought about what it must be like to put a gun to your temple and pull the trigger.

45:25

I mean these kinds of things are not the normal way of people speaking because we have a self -preservation instinct and the work of the law is written on the heart.

45:34

We don't naturally want to kill ourselves so we should be aware of those things and not be afraid to ask.

45:39

Not in a group but one -on -one say I'm concerned have you had suicidal thoughts? And sometimes just the fact that people have a comfort level that they can talk about things with you will help out.

45:50

Was it William Kalper who struggled with suicidal thoughts? He did. He was very very deeply depressed throughout his life.

45:56

Yeah and I believe even at one point attempted to commit suicide. He had his carriage rider

46:02

I believe take him to the Thames River and they got lost in the fog and when the fog lifted he went up right back in front of his own home or something like that.

46:13

Interesting story. Do you know of any Christians noteworthy Christians from history who took their own life?

46:21

Well no I know of enough I've had to deal with pastorally of that. I can't think of any

46:27

Chris offhand not that that's happened again in some cases that may be that may be masked in order to preserve a person's good name at the end but I can't think of any offhand.

46:37

Now when the when the Christian or the professing

46:42

Christian commits suicide and you are dealing with the remaining loved ones if that person prior to this act had a fruit -bearing life where you had no reason to doubt they were giving a false profession should you give the the family the utmost certainty of peace that their loved one is with Christ?

47:06

Yeah I think there's a statement Chris from a booklet by Samuel Miller who was the first professor of ecclesiastical history and polity of Princeton Seminary in the 19th century it's on the guilt folly and sources of suicide and he has an interesting very interesting statement in here he says it is possible that a child of God may be so far under the power of mental derangement as to rush unbidden into the presence of his father or commit suicide and and this was in a time people did not have mood altering medications that they took and a multiplicity of mood altering medications that alter moods in a way we never expected and and that's why in in cases with which

47:55

I'm familiar there at least with believers there has been that kind of mental derangement that has come with the context of medication and he says

48:06

I believe that instances of this kind have sometimes occurred someone out of a Christian genuine

48:12

Christian mental derangement who commits suicide and if so concerning the salvation of such persons no doubt can be entertained but it may be questioned on very solid ground whether a real

48:25

Christian in the exercise of his reason ever became his own executioner in other words fully realizing that all sin is is an anomaly where we're out of our minds when we send people who there's not mental derangement that comes from a combination of chemicals of the system or from a very severe depressed state and see we we think in our culture of chemicals quote -unquote that in some way induce depression but you can make a case that the opposite is either the truth or equally true depressed states can alter our chemical state in our bodies and and and that will alter the way we think but but when you have someone who has lived a consistent

49:14

Christian life and yet has struggled with depression even with suicidal thoughts um and then perhaps has been taking medication and there's been a change in medication or has gone through something traumatic

49:27

I mean there have been these pressure points that have just pushed the person over the edge I think we we need to give comfort to the family that this is a person as best as we know who's with the lord and then and uh if you'd like to join us on the air this will be our final segment of today's broadcast so this will be your final opportunity to call in with a question for pastor bill shishko on suicide the number is 631 321

49:51

WNYG 631 321 WNYG and you may uh feel free to remain anonymous if you so choose to 631 321

49:59

WNYG we'll be right back have you or someone you know been injured due to an accident or medical malpractice if so call but if you go and associates at 1 -800 -669 -HURT hi my name is

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I've seen him help countless people rebuild their lives after an accident or injury I know that he gives each case individual attention

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I know he and his staff take each case personally I've seen him both laugh and cry along with his clients it's hard work but he loves doing it dad can help you too just call 1 -800 -669 -HURT 1 -800 -669 -HURT

51:01

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51:47

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52:25

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German cuisine in a beautiful beautiful atmosphere the Village Lantern restaurant Lindenhurst Long Island we do have an anonymous caller on the line welcome to Iron Sherpa's Iron hi how you doing good uh

53:37

I just wanted to make a comment I've uh dealt with depression all my life I didn't even realize it until later years um recently just went on some medication

53:47

I am a Christian for about 20 years uh and I felt very uh defeated uh um let

53:57

God down because I had to take medication or felt I had to take medication but I do deal with uh suicidal thoughts on a regular basis and I'm glad that some light's been shed in this area because I do at times feel desperate where there's no one to talk to or no one to turn to are you a member of a church yes

54:16

I am is it a good solid bible believing church yes it is okay well

54:21

Pastor Bill any comments yeah well first first I appreciate your calling second I appreciate you bringing up what you did about medication

54:29

I am one pastor who believes in the final authority of holy scripture who absolutely rejects what

54:36

I regard as a foolish and dangerous notion that there's no place for medication for uh for Christians um when they deal with things like this when a person struggles with clinical depression suicidal thoughts um this is something a person's got to work with and medication can help deal help a person deal with the issues it doesn't solve the problem but it can help you deal with the issues

55:00

I liken the medication to a crutch for someone that's broken a leg and nobody feels uh we may not we may feel somewhat awkward about using a crutch but there's there's nothing wrong with doing that so I'm thankful that you got the medication

55:11

I would urge you a couple of things one make sure you are aware of the side effects of the medication that in the your prescription bottle it will tell you about that number two be very careful stay on the medication don't go off it unless you get a doctor's counsel about it and should you have to add medications you're going to have to look at what might result from a combination of those things beyond that my friend please get a confidant hopefully your pastor or one of the elders of the church of which you're a part that you can speak with be honest with the person in with people who have suicidal thoughts or tendencies talking through issues really does help for the reasons

55:54

I gave before it helps a person get a better perspective and you want someone that can bring

55:59

God into the picture for you to see that God is is infinitely greater than your problem and because you're one of his children the

56:07

Lord does all things well and will be of help but I appreciate your calling yes by the way I want to give you the phone number for Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing because the are the publishers of one of the booklets that Pastor Bill Shishko was just referring to the number it's a toll -free number it's 1 -800 -631 -0094 1 -800 -631 -0094 and the booklet is called

56:31

Suicide Understanding and Intervening by Jeffrey S. Black and you can also get this book off of the internet

56:40

I believe that the website is www .prpbooks

56:47

.com I'm not positive about that but I think that's the website but if you would like to give

56:53

I know you remained anonymous on the air but if you would like to give Wally our engineer your name address and phone number we can mail you a free copy of a brand new genuine leather

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57:10

and that's compliments of the Lockman Foundation the publishers of the New American Standard Bible and also compliments of our premier sponsors the law firm of Buttafuoco and Associates but we really appreciate you calling and please continue to call and continue to listen to the program okay thank you very much all right

57:28

God bless Pastor Bill I'd like you to basically just unburden your heart and leave our audience with what you want most ingrained on their hearts and minds well for those who may be listening to this who do have suicidal thoughts have contemplated suicide take that seriously realizing you're you are under deep satanic assault get the help that you need

57:52

I would say beginning with an understanding pastor who can help you for those of you who are going through the bereavement the sorrow of a loved one who committed suicide did not leave a note and you feel that sense of helplessness you are going through a peculiar kind of bereavement and you also need someone with whom you can speak to give you a perspective on things because you don't have a good perspective yourself and I would say there again a pastor who knows the word of God who can comfort you and and and just help you walk through things and realize that this kind of bereavement takes a lot longer than anyone can imagine then finally remember the gospel of God's grace the

58:34

Lord Jesus is all authority in heaven and on earth and he's infinitely greater than any problem that you may have and hopeless is not in the

58:42

Christian vocabulary well thank you so much Pastor Bill and you know how highly

58:47

I value the Orthodox Presbyterian denomination and I know that our program people are listening to this program all over the world we've gotten phone calls and emails from all over Europe Africa Korea and not to mention all of the

59:01

United States if you could let our listeners know how they can get in touch with an Orthodox Presbyterian church near them and of course your personal information about the

59:11

Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square you can communicate with us through our website www .opcli

59:19

for opc Long Island www .opcli .org and you may call my study although you'll get my electronic secretary 516 -593 -1507 and I would be happy to speak with you and try to be of help to you that way or if you'd rather email me last name shishko sh i s h k o dot numeral one at opc .org

59:48

thank you so much brother it's been a long time but it was well worth the wait to have you back on this broadcast

59:54

I want to repeat those phone numbers for uh the uh milleridge in the fundraising dinner on behalf of grace christian academy that's tomorrow night 7 to 10 p .m

01:00:06

in jericho long island the number for registration is 516 -379 -abcd 516 -379 -abcd and also the village lantern restaurant if you'd like to take your loved one there for valentine's day in lindenhurst long island 631 -225 -1690 631 -225 -1690