Beth Moore's Racist Library and Open Phones

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:32

And greetings welcome to the dividing line on a Wednesday not our normal time, but we're doing the

00:40

Monday Wednesday Friday thing I'm I'm a little tired this morning And I'll tell you why to bring you up to speed

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Last evening a little after about sometime between 8 9 o 'clock, I guess 8 30 ish somewhere around there.

00:56

I don't know my daughter summer contacted me and informed me of What was going on at least the initial?

01:06

reports of what was going on with Pastor Jeff Durbin he had had at that time at that point.

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We just knew he had fallen and hit his head and didn't know what all the details were and I had not been to this hospital in a long long time

01:26

And all the names have changed because banner banner or somebody else buys everything so I mean,

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I guess Samaritan's been gone for a long time, but used to be called good Sam, but anyways,

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I Tracked it down and headed down there and spent a couple hours in the

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ER Which I expected to be extremely busy, but it wasn't I was really surprised.

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I guess I guess Tuesday night is a Better night than a

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Friday night or a Saturday night. Well, I'm not sure what that has to do with the how

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On how on how unbusy the the emergency room was but I joined a number of the folks from Apologia there in the

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ER as we sort of waited for information and get some more idea of you know what was going on and I was there fairly late until Pastor Luke mentioned that Jeff was joking with him about something and I figured if he's joking with him about something

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I can go home now. I figured that was the The thing he's still there but mainly for testing and You know, he needs to get cleared

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Some type of a of a seizure what prompted it things like that were we're just not sure yet all that information has already been put out by by the church on the website, but Obviously a very traumatic experience for the family for the kids especially, you know right before Thanksgiving and I know

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I know the Durbin's are big on Family and holidays and things like that so hoping to get word maybe

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Luke or Zach or somebody will Go ahead and text me

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I'll still see it on my phone During the program if if he gets gets released or whatever else it might be but prayers definitely

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Helpful for that I've watched this morning once the Do not disturb time passed on my phone

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It was the Grand Central Station and You know,

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I should go ahead and mention and thank him One of the first people to contact me about Jeff Durbin, even though I was in the

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ER for a couple hours Was he jaws Ahmed who

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Sent me a sent me a note and I'm not sure you may know about this But if you didn't you know, I I think

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I think I think you have a relationship with Jeff. Yeah yeah, you could say that and So the word had gotten out and I appreciated

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What he jaws did and want wanting to mean to know that I appreciate that it's a good thing So, yeah, let's continue to pray things like this

04:32

Yeah, you know Programs like ER not

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ER house Have sort of ruined a lot of us not that I watched more than a few episodes, but A lot of people have the idea that today we can we can just figure everything out because sometimes we do but medicine

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Is not an exact science by a stretch of the imagination no matter how we may want to pretend that it is and these bodies are complex and Things can go on with them that You know,

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I I had something happened to me I'm not gonna go into detail about something happened to me last

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July and basically, what I've discovered is Can't predict it.

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Can't treat it. No triggers doesn't really have any long -lasting effects. So enjoy Just What happens it happens?

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Oh, well You know, you'll you'll get over it It's real bummer while it's happening, but you'll get over it.

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Just sort of how you know, just sort of how it goes and So It's yeah, that's just the way it is.

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I hope I'm really hoping that there will be More Information, you know because we can do so much these days, you know

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I think of I think especially eye injuries and stuff, you know Some of the stuff we can do with with the eye today.

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It's just Astonishing just undreamed of only 30 40 years ago and There you go but Might not ever really find out why and of course that leaves you going.

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Well, what if it happens again? And You know that kind of stuff is is tough so we pray for the

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Durbin's and for pastor Luke and pastor Zach and all the deacons and the people and Since I happen to be there

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And we we knew that Jeff wasn't gonna be feeling overly good after all of this now, hmm

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Since I happen to be there. It's sort of like so how about preaching

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Sunday? Alrighty So we will be

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I'll be filling in for Jeff and some other folks have been lined up for the next few

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Sundays Just to give him some time off He's gonna need to have some recovery time from this and I started looking at my schedule and could grief

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With what I've got going on Just just astonishing how long it's going to be before I would have another opportunity to help fill in so I've got a very very very very busy start to the to the next year and That's That's interesting.

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Anyways, so just just to bring you up to a little bit of speed there Last I knew

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They're hoping that Jeff will get to go home this evening And not have to have to be there again

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Because I'm sure he's just really enjoying hospital food and So Continue to pray about that that situation.

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Thanks everybody who tried to let me know I forgot it was working out of things.

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Sorry So I Want to address we're gonna take a phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

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But before then because we do get really good calls I I just want to compliment this audience

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We really do and I don't want to put any pressure on anybody, you know but you you call this program and you do have a little something a little bit of a reputation live up to so Let's try to just That's good that's gonna really make everybody unhappy thank you

08:56

I don't know why it is as I get older I I used to you know, when I used to go speak at places people say would you like water and I'm like Well, you know,

09:04

I probably won't use it and now No We need it getting old

09:12

In many ways, so it's because we're drying out the older we get we're desiccating.

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Yes. It's it's in preparation for burial. Yep So a couple of things.

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I know I said this on Monday, but I want to remind I've gotten a number of phone calls and some Contacts from the the website

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But yeah, I know you're thrilled with this housekeeping stuff. But if you send us checks

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And I don't have your email address and yeah, I know stop sleeping And I don't have your email address

09:46

You know, I don't have your email address because you haven't been getting receipts from me on a regular basis so you need to call me or Contact those two lines of people calling right now.

09:58

Yeah. Well, it'll take care of itself. I'll be on it here in a second So so make sure you do that so that as your end comes up I can get you receipts out in a rapid and quick fashion.

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So that's That's all from here for now Goodbye, we're good down here.

10:15

Thank you. Everything's okay. Yep. All right good Thank you for you know,

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I can't Given that he controls the horizontal and the vertical I can't stop him when he wants to do that kind of stuff

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So it's just I Just have to go with it Huh? No matter how hard I try

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I mean I can mock him while he's doing it But I can't really stop him because he he has all the knobs and buttons and stuff like that in there

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And he's now taking your phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one this morning in the midst of all the back and forth

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With Various folks at the church regarding Jeff I Was linked to a tweet from future president of the

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SPC Beth Moore mm -hmm It does seem to be going that way and It was in response

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Well, I don't know I couldn't see the whole thing because it was already in graphical form so it was not clickable and Besides I would have had to I can do it.

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It doesn't take that much time to do it, but Kyle James Howard is in the list and so Since he's afraid of me and has blocked me

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I have to take a couple extra steps to see his stuff Which is easily done by the way, if you're wondering how that's how you can get fairly quickly you just copy the the link to the tweet that you're blocked from and then you paste it into a private window in your browser and The private window will bring it up because it doesn't identify who you are and so you can read whatever is whatever is blocked

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You know, it's just just a you know, I block folks. I muted a bunch of folks today

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I muted a bunch of Romanists today that were just droning on and on about stuff that we've refuted Decades ago and they don't really care to do the reading and stuff like that.

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So That's fine, you know, so anyways, it's a tweet from Beth Moore responding to someone named

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Bethany Jenkins and Kyle James Howard and It says so agree.

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It's way past time to inventory our personal libraries To add to them where they are woefully lacking and to quit being clay

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Theologically shaped by only one shade of hands That needs to be over.

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It has failed and robbed us for starters. Jesus didn't have white hands so I Responded to that fairly strongly because I am sick and tired of this racialism

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Which in this case is nothing but racism It's reverse racism, but it's the acceptable form of racism.

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The woke church is the acceptable You know it racism

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Involves prejudice based upon your perceptions of race wearing these lenses and glasses that that But there's if it goes one direction it's bad if it goes the other direction it's perfectly fine

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I Don't see anybody talking about racism as a whole people having animosity animus prejudice actually based upon thinking that my

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Race is better than another race or that this other race is

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Incapable of doing X Y or Z or any of that kind of stuff When people actually believe that your desire to not take someone's skin color or The social status of their great -great -grandparents

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Into your mind in evaluating their themselves as a person or their arguments in What we used to in society call dialogues debates discussions things like that which almost never happen anymore

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If you do that if you have that attitude, well, you're now a racist yourself You know with your privilege and all the rest of there is no way to even begin to reason

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With someone who absolutely insists on keeping the racialist glasses on and not taking them off long enough to Reason with you because the racialist glasses change the nature of facts and their relationship to one another

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Or they actually render that relationship to one another irrelevant if it goes against the flow of the racialist memes and and Ideas that you have already established and that you want to you want to support and So, you know,

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I I just basically responded this and just said this is just got this this is so wrong

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It's it's so fundamentally wrong You to not sit there and look at a library and go, okay well

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It's too white so we need to Get our libraries

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More rainbowy It's so worldly.

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It is so stupid. It is so ridiculous You judge a Christian library based upon the faithfulness of What is written to the revealed revelation of God in Jesus Christ?

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Is that really that difficult to understand? and the color of someone's skin is so Stinking irrelevant.

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It just angers me to no end It doesn't matter who wrote it.

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And if you're sitting there, oh, well, and I saw so many people Oh, well, but you see you need to understand because you know certain people have to you know

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It because of your cultural background You're gonna have certain perspectives and you're gonna have certain insights and blah blah blah blah blah blah God's truth is not dependent upon your skin color and it's not dependent upon your great -grandpapa

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Stop it. Don't you see how destructive this is? It is absolutely Absolutely battery acid to theology apologetics everything

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I Mean we've got people out there now literally linking alleged

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Income disparity between men and women which is almost always based upon the fact that women actually

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God made them to want to have kids But that aside actually linking alleged income

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Inequality to the pro -life movement Talk about destroying any type of effort to make progress in the

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Education of the people in regards to the fact that we're murdering unborn children.

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Let's just completely Engage in the most egregious category errors possible and there are so many

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Christians that are ongoing. Well, that sounds okay That sounds then, you know, I just want to be nice to everybody. It's like start thinking like an adult

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Stop thinking like a child Don't you realize our society the level of maturity of thought in our society has taken a nosedive

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It's in kindergarten right now It is in kindergarten right now You don't want to think like kindergartners that it may be the people who think any mote like kindergartners are the people who are being

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Praised by our society, but you can't want to have that societal praise.

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You've got to stop You got to stop people think You can't make heads or tails out of what

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Paul says to the Thessalonians. If they won't work, they won't eat Utilizing kindergarten level emotive

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Anti -intellectualism, it's not gonna work you're gonna end up with the

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Wacky wackadoodly theology that we see coming out of seminaries these days. Oh You don't look at your library and go

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I need to figure out the skin tone of all these authors No, you don't you need to find out if These authors have been faithful to the

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Word of God and accurate in handling it. That's far more important That's foundational this

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Quit being clay theologically shaped by only one shade of hands Oh good grief the shade of someone's hands if you are so play -doh if you are such a

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Snowflake that you can be shaped on the basis of the the clay

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I'm the color of somebody's hands Again, you're stuck in kindergarten what should shape you is the consistency and force of the

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Argumentation the command of the history and the theology and the consistency and the logic and the argumentation

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Isn't that what's supposed to? provide the power of Conviction But but but we need to but we need to hear what others say

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No, we need to hear what God has said and we need to hear faithful Representations of what

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God has said and down the road once you have that solidly established and once you've seen the the

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Consistency of God's truth and the power of God's truth, then you can make application way down there in different contexts to different people in different places

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And then you can start taking into consideration something like, you know When we apply this in the inner city

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Then we need to emphasize these things because those are the context there need to emphasize these things over here in the more rural context there is an application out there, but we're skipping past this stuff here the central stuff and Getting down there as if it's the primary thing and it can never be

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It can never be this is divisive. It's destructive and it's deceptive

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Inventory our personal libraries Wow base upon Race.

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Yeah, okay All right. Well, anyway, I think you can tell that I found that particular that that I find that particular way of thought significantly beneath appropriate

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Christian Maturity and That's what's going on in in the church today.

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You've you've You've got people Standing positions of leadership that are illustrating for us how to Degrade Christian leadership down to the level of our society today where you're emoting things you emote things.

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It's all emotion It's all emotion Instead of Seriously consistently

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Seeking to represent what has been given to us in the objective revelation of the Word of God which our

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Lord Jesus Christ directed us to Okay, well anyways

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Hopefully Hopefully you get the idea of why that kind of a statement by Beth Moore just makes me go and that's she's got a whole lot more followers than I do and The problem is you keep repeating that kind of thing and repeating that kind of thing and you are destructively degrading your readers by putting in their minds ways of thought that are simply fundamentally destructive

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It's all there is to it. It's all there is to it. Hey So as I said on Twitter, I said stop

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And I did I did mention I was going to address this Dustin Hollingsworth wrote to me before right before the program started and Taking umbrage with what

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I had said in response to Beth Moore Said isn't it safe though to check yourself in terms of what you're reading and listening to?

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It's natural to read and listen to those who look and sound like us if we don't keep healthy checks on that Can't we miss out on good teaching theological writing?

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I don't care who wrote it. I don't look I'm not looking at the picture on the back

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What's the standard Dustin? The standard Isn't it safe though to check yourself in terms of what you're reading listen to yes on the basis of its orthodoxy

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It's soundness its consistency Not on the race of its author and when you say, you know

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It's natural to read and listen to those who look and sound like us. How do you even know? How do you even know?

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I don't go looking for pictures of authors It never crosses my mind

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I could stinking care less Why does everybody all of a sudden only over the past few years we've got

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I've just I've just got to think about I just I just need to know what that that person's great -great -grandfather did and how they lived in and Really seriously,

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I Can't conceive of this. I cannot conceive of this.

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I did my entire Seminary training all my study of church history and I never once sat there and said, huh

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I wonder I wonder exactly what tone of skin

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Athanasius had over against Milito Sardis in comparison to Augustin and what about Tertullian and Huh?

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You know, I sort of need to I wonder if I could look up some artwork and maybe you know How accurate would it be in?

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It doesn't matter It just doesn't matter Judge them on the basis of the objective unchanging revelation.

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We've been given in Scripture. It doesn't matter. Oh Stop stop stop

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Hey Okay. Anyway, I Didn't get a lot of sleep last night and probably by now

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Everybody on the lines going. I'm not sure. I want to be the first one up, you know

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Because He may he may say things to me that I'm not sure I want to say, okay

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Our first Question is about a textual variant that there is a lengthy addition at the end

26:10

Ephesians 5 30 act a sarcastic to Chi act tone. I stay on act to somatos in Manuscript K.

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I'll too Because we are members of his body and so let's talk to Nathan hi

26:27

Nathan Hi, dr. White first off. I just hey

26:32

Nathan. Thank you. Nathan. Nathan. Are you a better? Are you a Beth Moore fan? Well, sir, my mom listens to her a lot and my mom is a

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Calvinist and so I Grew up listening to her a lot. So Okay.

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All right. I'm also my mom also buries her her theological intake.

26:56

So I was just trying to scare you trying to scare. I just wanted to say thank you for your ministry

27:03

I'd first heard of you when I read the King James only controversy. Yeah, and I read

27:08

I read it in a day I was so thrilled about it. I didn't write it. I just want you know, I did not write it in a day

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It's like my question has to do with textual variant last year

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I wrote my own personal commentary on Ephesians where I went through every variant as I went along Like I found one one to be interesting 314 was pretty explainable, but Ephesians 530 gave me such a headache because I feel like it's more of a homo atelioton with how

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Verse 30 ends with how to Selma out to and then also a osteon out to and That was the way

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I think Peter Gurry from evangelical textual criticism explained it But I think

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I think you know Wallace, I think Peter would rather be described as being from Phoenix Seminary, but that's okay

28:06

Well Daniel Wallace in the net Bible said that And and I'm just paraphrasing here because I don't have it in front of me but it was a scribe solved

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Genesis 224 quoted in the previous or the the following verse in verse 31 and so it was a way of I Expanding upon the

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Old Testament Usage, but I just wanted to engage your thoughts on What conclusions you came to because at the end of the day

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I do want to know what Paul wrote and not just what I think he wrote, right? I just wanted your thoughts on that sir.

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Well for those who are interested in textual criticism the the variance in most translations today

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For no one ever hate his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it just as Christ also does the church Because we are members of his body period verse 30 being fairly short verse 31

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For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother shall be joined his wife to should become one flesh so you have the quotation from Genesis 2 from the

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Greek Septuagint beginning at the beginning of verse 31 and then this mystery is great But I'm speaking with reference to Christ and the church

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However, there is what is known as a variant In a number of manuscripts you have

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Because we are members of his body And then

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Ecte sarcos so to of his flesh and of his bone Is the majority of the manuscripts that contain this which is the majority reading by the way the majority of Greek manuscripts

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Most of which would come after 1000 AD Contain this citation that is as was noted derived from Genesis 2 23 in the

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Greek Septuagint Codex K Which I it's interesting as I'm looking at this here it's cited twice

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I'm not sure if that means that it just simply includes that extra addition

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I think it does just continue to have it has a What looks to me like an obvious Repetition in its citation, but it

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Is a majority reading it's it's not overly early. It's the second hand of Sinaiticus But with an interesting note on that is it's in the margins and there's an arrow point.

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Hello. Oh Lost you there. Are you still there? Yes, I was saying it in Codex Sinaiticus that there's an arrow pointing at where it would have gone

30:59

Well, yeah but the second hand Are we having problems rich Because the the thing just flashed up there.

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What's wrong? We're having internet issues. Okay. Well, hopefully we're still getting it recorded.

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That's the important part Um The the problem is that the second hand of Sinaiticus at least

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Sinaiticus to superscript two is from around the 7th century so that's that's a

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Fair fair ways down the road from so you're talking, you know, three and a half centuries after the original writing.

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But anyway Yeah, I'm it is possible

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Given that out to ends both The the shorter phrase and longer phrase it is possible that the earlier manuscripts like p46 the original

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Sinaiticus Alexandrinus Vaticanus Number of basically

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Not only unseals but early minuscules and and two really important early minuscule 1739 1881

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Those are both manuscripts. We know are Taken from very early exemplars

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It's it's possible That there was a line that lost that That variant because of homo et aliaton,

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I suppose But that's actually a when you when you look at it, that's that's a fairly wide

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Ranging Number of witnesses 1739 has the has that missing in the text, but it's been inserted later into the margin which means it's you know, the the

32:55

Someone who worked on that manuscript knew that that was a had become the majority reading over time so yeah, you know

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I Would I would tend just as a general rule

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When you have a septuagint citation like this to recognize that that that tends to involve addition over time rather than rather than something being deleted

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So I would I would probably go with the with the editors who have a place that in in the footnote

33:31

I don't know that it massively changes the the meaning Other than maybe trying to connect it a little bit more closely to the

33:41

Genesis two thing but it well that that was what I came to also like because the order is mixed up if you notice because I think

33:51

Adam says bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh and then This says of his flesh and of his bone.

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So the order is reversed But you're right. It's still the fact that it says it for we are members of his body that That unity with Christ If it's not lost if that if that's not an original reading.

34:12

Well, it's certainly not lost. No Not by any stretch the imagination It really does you think that if this if that wasn't the original

34:22

Yeah, do you think that I was trying to like think up ways that that?

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became fuller where He wanted to expand upon the body of Christ and just they also like with Genesis 2 24 being quoted in the following verse and then

34:41

I was I just couldn't really think of like Daniel Wallace in the net

34:47

Bible just you know talked about the expansion of the quotation, but Yeah, well

34:53

Obviously ascribes would have had access to the to the Greek Septuagint This would have been a well enough known citation that they could have looked it up that that could

35:03

Add to the possibility of expansion. I can't see how looking it up would would in any way lead to not having it expanded but Yeah, it's an interesting variant.

35:15

I don't like I said, I don't know that it changes changes the meaning it just Gives you a slightly thinner

35:21

New Testament if you don't have it But I don't think that you know, obviously

35:27

I wouldn't Because the variant I wouldn't put a huge amount of weight if you included the phraseology on differentiating between flesh and bone or something like that and in this particular context, but It is interesting to note and I didn't take the time to look

35:47

What kind of textual notes are provided by ESV or NASB or anybody else as to whether they note that or Do or do not but I'm sure the

35:56

NET does that's for sure the NET notes all that kind of stuff. So But we've pretty much bored everybody to tears now

36:03

Nathan. So we're gonna have to Yeah, I hope you have a great Thanksgiving sir.

36:08

Thank you for taking my call. All right. Thanks. They think god bless Bye -bye All right 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number

36:20

I see on Twitter Al Gore seems to have stopped peddling and our internet is not happy about that hoping to get him moving again soon

36:28

That bad, huh? So we're pretty much deadheading it, huh? Really bad.

36:34

Okay. Well, I wonder why that you know right before a holiday why that would be but we will press on and At least we have our phone callers and so we can talk with Scott down in Texas.

36:46

Hi Scott Hi, dr. White. How are you doing? Doing good? Good. Hey, thanks so much for taking my call

36:53

I have a lot of respect for what you do and for your ministry. I just want to thank you for that. So, thank you yeah, you bet and So the nature of my question is on I guess man's free will and his personal responsibility

37:07

You know, I'll say straight away that you know frequently you address objections to Calvinism and you always say well

37:12

It's you've been listening to the vine line for any length of time You should know and I feel like I'm one of those people that should know and just doesn't know

37:20

Anyway, also if it sounds like I'm reading my question I am because one I'm nervous too

37:25

I've got a 16th one year old 16 month old and I'm trying to keep track of so I keep myself on track, but Anyway, so with regard to man's free will

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I guess my struggle is the fact That all mankind has fallen and willing active rebellion against God which we see pretty clearly in Scripture and yet not of mankind it seems to me as capable of being in anything other than this state because of sin nature and then

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With regard to free will God holds us accountable for our sinful state because of our free will choice to rebel and yet Again it seems to me.

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No one has any hope of being anything other than sinful apart from God's election. So Ultimately the way

38:06

I see it as man is he's being held accountable for his free will choice to sin And yet he's unable to make a free will choice not to sin

38:15

Well based on my understanding somewhere somewhere in there I didn't hear anything about our having fallen in Adam, which yeah is always central and And the majority of conundrums in regards to The fallen nature of man and his creaturely free will over against an autonomous free will

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Almost always involve if not openly then in a hidden sense a fundamental rejection of the concept of Of Federal headship and our falling in Adam and so the vast majority of people simply today will not accept the idea that there is a corruption of our nature that flows from an intimate relationship to our federal head

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Adam and I think that's directly related to the fact that a lot of people today don't really have much of a

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Concept or connection to the idea of Union with Christ and the imputation of his righteousness.

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So we're so individualistic. We're so naturalistic we're so anti supernatural in our in our fundamental outlook and how we've been trained to think that we we see ourselves as these these autonomous individuals and Do not see our relationship to Adam's so what needs to be brought into the form of the question is

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When you say we are held accountable for our own free will choices. It's we are held accountable for our own creaturely choices which are limited by the desires that are presented to To us by our fallen nature to to the will by our fallen nature and so we desire to do what is opposed to God's ways and unless he graciously removes us from that situation

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Which is really where the objection is because we're saying well, we should not be in that situation We don't we reject federalism.

40:33

We reject God's right to hold Adams posterity accountable for Adams action that is that is the fundamental thing when you when you look at Where denominations go that that that may have been reformed at one point and then move away from and move back toward a?

40:50

More Roman Catholic soteriology really on the subject of the nature of the will Inevitably there is an abandonment either openly or functionally of that relationship between Adam and his posterity which leaves

41:05

Romans 5 just Hanging out in the breeze just just sort of floating around out there Even though it's the transitionary text from the introduction of on the universality of sin through the beginning of chapter 3 justification 3 4 and then beginning of 5 and then that difficult section that no one wants to preach because they don't really know what's going on, but The relation the the one humanity in in Adam the other humanity in Christ Becomes the transition into Romans 6 and the practical living of the

41:40

Christian life and so You look at those denominations that that that go that direction and eventually they they back away on this very issue

41:51

But that's that's where the that's where the answer is found is to understand that there is a fundamental limitation that is placed upon those who are in Adam and It takes an act of grace which cannot be demanded to free someone from that that slavery to sin that comes from Being fallen in father

42:17

Adam and so all of the categories that we utilize and saying well, it doesn't seem fair Right.

42:25

Just we are almost always importing human categories that cannot even begin to Deal with the idea of federal headship and so in our minds, we're we're going with some kind of Autonomous American constitutional justice idea rather than the covenantal head federal headship concept that is actually found in Scripture and I understand why it is because Our seminaries really struggle to make clarity out of this

43:06

Partly because if you don't if you don't believe scripture is actually consistent itself then you don't really have any basis for for doing that and so what becomes a mist in the pulpit becomes a fog in the pew and It leads to what we see all around us today so in answer to the question the the the the answer is found in rephrasing the question in a more biblical context and Recognizing that we are held accountable

43:35

Fundamentally to our father in our father Adam and then Individually for acting upon the desires of our hearts and loving those things that are in opposition to God You might say well, you can't do anything else unless unless what unless grace is extended to you exactly

43:51

But if it's grace, it cannot be demanded. And so well, but it's not fair that we're all in that situation

43:56

Well, it's not a matter of fairness. It's a matter of either justice or mercy And you don't want fairness.

44:01

You want the mercy part not the not the fairness part. So Okay. Yeah So that's

44:10

That's awesome. Thank you so much. I'm probably have to relisten to it just to chew on all that but You'll get to hear the the little one in the background while you listen to it again, too

44:20

You'll be able to keep this recording and and is it boy or girl It is a girl

44:27

I sound like a little girl and about 16 years from now You'll be able to use this like at a birthday party or something to embarrass her.

44:33

It's really great. It's Yeah, I actually I that thought did occur to me that's pretty funny

44:42

If you don't mind I have a real quick follow -up to I'm sure Benjamin and I'm sure Benjamin Paul and Ryan are gonna be a

44:48

Little upset with you, but if is if it's very very short It is very very short I promise so in regard to that act of grace

44:56

So obviously by God's sovereign decree and his plan of election. That is I mean, that's how how people are are called to him

45:04

Right there elect and so I I guess the other thing I struggle with is I know that we don't deserve to be saved

45:11

Right, it is grace. It is mercy. But why? Why does God not save everybody instead of well, it seems to me the reason he doesn't save everyone is because He'll have the maximum amount of glory

45:24

I suppose because his wrath and justice in addition to his grace and mercy will be eternally on display by not saving everybody

45:31

Yeah, I'm really I'm really uncomfortable with with maximum stuff. I I'm only uncomfortable with that because the

45:38

Molinists Try to use that to do their thing my

45:45

But but you're you're on the right track. Anyways, and and that is it is God's intention to Demonstrate the full range of his attributes in creation

45:57

And as a old Professor of mine long ago said, you know, they're they're only three choices

46:04

God can save nobody God can save somebody or God can save everybody It was very logically those only three options and so within the

46:12

God can save somebody Realm, that's the only place where there's any freedom on God's part to act in History and to demonstrate his wrath and to demonstrate his mercy and and so on and so forth.

46:25

So in the other two It's just well, I'm not gonna save anybody So no one's ever seen my mercy and my love or I'm gonna save everybody and therefore no one's ever gonna see my my wrath and my justice so Only in the one is there any?

46:39

Room for the demonstration who God really is. So, okay. Okay. All right, Scott.

46:44

Awesome. Hey, dr. White. Thank you so much Thank you. God bless All right, according to rich we're working again.

46:53

That's good. What'd you reset? You what? You kicked out.

46:59

Okay. All right doesn't mean you're gonna there's gonna be a little delay and uploading the program Yeah, we'll have to upload another version of it.

47:07

Yeah Yeah, understand it happens. It hadn't happened for a while. So since it's the day before Thanksgiving, we should be thankful That it has probably been

47:19

What an easy two months since we had to I'm more skeptical than that.

47:25

I'd say it's been at least two months since we Uploaded a replacement version.

47:31

So we'll we'll stick with the calls we have right now. That should be just about right. So All right.

47:36

Let's talk with Benjamin. Hi Benjamin Hello, dr. White. It's an honor to speak with you

47:41

I've really benefited from your ministry and the Lord has really used it in my life. Thank you very much My question has to do with a subject you discussed on Monday Yes I am a reformed believer who holds to infant baptism and so I listened to your discussion of Acts 239 with great interest and my question is based upon the context within The narrative of acts is it more natural to read the phrase as many?

48:09

For all who are far off Is it more natural to read that as the Gentiles or the

48:15

Jewish Diaspora and the reason I asked that is that as you know later on in the book of Acts Peter will receive a vision for the inclusion of the

48:24

Gentiles in the church in Acts 10 where he will Also speak with Cornelius and then that will be ratified and approved by the church

48:32

But it doesn't seem to me that that was clear in Peter's mind at this point in the narrative

48:37

So could you respond to that? Yeah. Well given that it's a fulfillment passage it would it would have to include the

48:48

Gentile mission, but the point is that In Acts 237 now when they heard this they were pierced to the heart and said to Peter and the rest the

48:56

Apostles brethren What shall we do? He has just announced very clearly the fact that the

49:03

Jewish nation has crucified her Messiah and The question is well, how can there be forgiveness if we as a nation have have crucified the one that God has sent to us

49:16

This is a they're pierced due to their heart. And so when he says they say brethren, what shall we do?

49:22

His response them is repent and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ forgives your sins.

49:29

I would insist that in this context repentance and baptism are

49:35

Intimately and unbrokenly unbroken in Lee connected to one another and hence the idea of of any type of Baptism taking place that day that did not include repentance would be outside the the exegetical bounds but Repent and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ was given to your sins and you will receive the gift of the

49:59

Holy Spirit For the promise and you can you know, there's there's there's room to discuss what the exact nature of Epangelia here is given the immediate discussion of Hagia Pneumatos right beforehand, but the promise is for you and toys tech noise humone and your children and For all toys ice

50:30

Macron now the the if you're saying diaspora The problem is as far as I can see that see there now you if you want to try to say

50:41

Yeah, the you know, the promise is for Jews And then say as many as the

50:49

Lord our God will call to himself I You're still now having to explain

50:55

Why do we have the proskaleo language of being called basically election stuff if you're only talking to the

51:06

Jews now, we're now we're introducing a whole new area that would take us maybe to Romans 9 and the

51:17

Righteousness of God in exercising sovereignty even Amongst the children of promise, but what that demonstrates is the election was

51:27

Was not connected to the external sign Because that would the elect the the the elect those the the limna the remnant

51:39

That had the external sign of the Covenant and circumcision They're definitely the ones to whom the promise is given

51:47

But the problem is the people that buy that decision were left out likewise carried the sign so That would almost seem to raise more problems for the

52:01

Pato Baptist position than it actually solves because now Baptism is only being given to those repent and believe and our to ever the

52:10

Lord our God's call whereas the alleged parallel between circumcision and Baptism what did not have that limitation?

52:20

It was just it was given to everybody. So that would seem I'm not sure you necessarily want to go that direction.

52:26

It just seems more consistent to me in light of the use of McClellan and the

52:34

Gentiles That this is and that it is an announcement.

52:40

I mean Even if Peter and the others Had to have

52:48

Miraculous revelation given to them and look Peter still didn't get it. I mean the the the sheet is

52:55

Acts 10 and It seems like Antioch is well after Acts 10 as far as Galatians chapter 2 goes so it was a

53:06

Repetitive it was a reality. It had to be repetitively Revealed to the

53:11

Jewish Apostles because there was a tendency to go back But still you have in Jesus's own words

53:21

Those fulfillment texts going back to you know, this is what they're gonna do in Acts 15.

53:28

This is what they're gonna do in seeing this this grateful these great fulfillment passages and the

53:33

Gentiles and so I I Think that the fulfillment concept would

53:41

Definitely include the whole world. They haven't been kicked out of Jerusalem yet to start doing that but I think that's certainly what's behind the the words and and what the application would be but If you want to go the other direction,

53:56

I think it raises some rather intriguing Objections as well in light of the exercise of election in that context.

54:03

So Yes, well, I really appreciate that answer. Dr. Way. I it just seems to me that while this is a very broad subject all the things that would be involved in arguing about infant baptism or or Credo baptism here well

54:20

I think the the application is broader than What Peter would have a perfect understanding of at this time because it is he is inspired by the

54:29

Holy Spirit as he's preaching this It seems to me that in his understanding

54:35

That there is an imperfect understanding as we see later on in his life So I think that that at least needs to be on the table as an interpretation my opinion

54:47

I really appreciate your contribution to this. Okay. All right. Thank you, sir Thank you. Bye. All right.

54:53

God bless. Bye. Bye All right, two more calls here. Oh one that I It's one of those questions that we can

55:01

Answer in our sleep because we've dealt with it so many times It's still a good question to answer every once in a while.

55:08

Let's talk with Paul in Alabama. Hi Paul Hey, dr.

55:14

Watt, thanks for taking my call Welcome. I'm a little confused about what the nature of the drawing in John chapter 12 verse 32

55:24

Versus the drawing in John chapter 6 verse 44. Mm -hmm Well You do you have my book do you have my book the potter's freedom?

55:38

Okay, so if my quick answer here is not sufficient it is something that is dealt with rather fully in the potter's freedom if you want to follow up with that in a written form, which sometimes is sometimes easier than just the the spoken word, but There are two extremely different contexts in John 6 and John 12

56:02

First of all in John 6 you have Jesus dealing with unbelievers.

56:08

He's already identified them as unbelievers Up in I think it was 34 35, but Jesus answered and said to them do not grumble among yourselves

56:16

No one can come to me unless the Father sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day Now when you simply look at the text itself you need to recognize that all who are drawn

56:29

Helcusa is the term that is used there all who are drawn By the Father are raised up by the

56:36

Son on the last day. There is no exegetical linguistic grammatical

56:42

Way around the reality that if the Father exercises this divine power of drawing the

56:51

Son and It's been said already back in verses 37 to 39 that the

56:56

Father gives a particular people to the Son all that are given to the Son will come to the Son and That the

57:02

Son will raise up all that are given to him by the Father. This has already been Asserted back in verses 37 to 39 so that that's already that's already laid out

57:13

Everyone who is drawn By the Father is Raised up by the

57:19

Son. So whatever this drawing is it is in perfect harmony with the

57:26

Resurrecting power of the Savior to save his people to give them eternal life

57:32

So that really is not arguable in John chapter 6 people stand on their heads and do exegetical gymnastics

57:39

But they can't get around the fact that the same audience that is drawn by the

57:45

Father is Raised up by the Son now what happens is that people will then leave this particular context and they will go to a

57:56

Completely different context. Why do I say it's a completely different context because in John chapter 12 you have the end of Jesus's public ministry and You have had a group of Greeks come to Jesus and Jesus does not reveal himself to them.

58:16

He doesn't even meet with them, but he does use their coming as a springboard for a destruction for a discussion of The judgment that God is bringing upon the world including a judgment of bringing blindness upon people justly so that they

58:37

Will experience judgment. It's a tough tough text to read through if you if you read the whole thing

58:44

But Specifically verse 31 now judgment is upon this world

58:50

Now the ruler of this world will be cast out in I if I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men to myself

58:57

Now it is the same Greek word. Helcuso So it is the same

59:03

Greek word some people Have been taught that You only assign one meaning for a

59:10

Greek word and then shove that into every other Text found the Bible that is not an appropriate or meaningful exegetical concept at all.

59:19

None of us Speak like that write like that Meanings of words are always determined by the context in which they're used.

59:27

Well, what is this context? Well and I if I am lifted up from the earth would draw all men to myself

59:35

What does that mean well, what does it mean to be lifted up from the earth? There are two

59:44

Possibilities to be lifted up from the earth could be in resurrection But in all probability

59:53

What is being referred to here is on the cross? Just as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness and people looked upon so in John This would be if if I am lifted up from the earth if I am crucified

01:00:10

Pantos helcuso pros em out on I will draw all men to myself now if it's if this is the same drawing as John chapter 6 where the father is giving a certain people to the

01:00:22

Sun and the Sun raises them all up This would result in Universalism everyone's gonna be saved but that's not what is being discussed here

01:00:32

Verse 33 by but he was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which he was to die

01:00:38

So he is saying if I be lifted up on the cross Then I will draw all

01:00:46

Pantos unto myself. Well, what does Pantos mean? Well, we Westerners who are individualists go.

01:00:53

Oh, that's every single individual member of a group But I would suggest you that the only consistent way in light of the fact that in this context

01:01:03

He is announcing judgment This has been brought about by the fact there are

01:01:08

Greeks seeking him that he does not meet with that he does not reveal himself to and That it's going to end with a discussion a quotation from Isaiah 6 where you know

01:01:19

Make their hearts fat and they're their eyes heavy and all the rest of stuff That what this that what the people who heard this would have understood was sort of like the last caller

01:01:31

And that is that this is another one of those places where there is an indication that the gospel is going to draw men from every tribe tongue people a nation and Here's the problem

01:01:45

Back in John chapter 11 the high priest had prophesied that by giving his life Jesus was going to save all sorts of different kinds of people

01:01:52

So that was that's already been stated and people want to say well, that's just your interpretation. So on so forth

01:01:57

Here's the to me the absolute end of this conversation and that is what does the

01:02:04

Bible say? About the cross and those who are perishing The Bible says that the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing the message of the cross is

01:02:16

Foolishness that it is that is repulsive to them. That is something that does not draw them.

01:02:22

It repels them and So if we are going to say well what

01:02:27

John 12 32 is is that? All people are drawn to Jesus By his death and then it's up to us to choose whether we could believe or not believe blah blah blah blah blah

01:02:39

That goes completely against everything. The Bible says about what the effect of the cross is on the unbelieving and upon those who are perishing instead the only way to understand the text is if I be lifted up if I be crucified then notice

01:02:54

I Will draw men from every tribe tongue people a nation to myself, which is exactly fulfilled a fulfillment

01:03:02

Not only of John chapter 11, but it's also exact fulfillment of Revelation chapter 5 Where the song of the pray of praise to the

01:03:10

Lamb is by your death. This is what you have done So Revelation 5 is the fulfillment of John 12 32 and that means it's a completely different context than what you have in John chapter 6

01:03:22

So so would you agree with that the the context in John chapter 12 verse 32?

01:03:29

the drawing there is specifically to Extends to an atonement versus John 644 where it's the father drawing in a

01:03:45

Regeneration. Yes Yes, salvific drawing. Yes, no question about it.

01:03:50

And not only that but that would mean because it is Lifted up from the earth and then 33 says indicate the kind of death by which he was going to die

01:04:01

Since Pontos then means kinds of men This would be a very clear teaching of particular redemption

01:04:07

That is men from every tribe tongue people a nation not a universal redemption or it ends up resulting in universal salvation

01:04:14

It's the only way you can go Right, and I've noticed in in several debates the opposition always wants to bring up John chapter 12

01:04:23

And and and make it seem as though that it trumps John chapter

01:04:28

Yes, what he says in verse 44, yeah, what's what's written afterwards trumps what was written before yeah, it is backwards.

01:04:36

Yeah Yep. Yeah, you're right. Okay. I sure appreciate it. All right. Thanks Paul Thank you.

01:04:42

All right. God bless All right got one call left here We went a little bit over on the hour, but nobody cares

01:04:49

Al Gore doesn't care and so no as near as anybody else Let's talk with Ryan in Kansas. Hello Ryan Hey, dr.

01:04:56

White, hello. Can you hear me? Okay. Yes, sir Okay, I've got a bunch of static in my ear and I'm on Bluetooth headphones

01:05:03

No, you sound you sound you sound pretty clean though. It sounds like you're on a speakerphone Okay Just real quick.

01:05:09

I appreciate your ministry. I just appreciate everything you do. Thank you very much And I've been following the church series on my runs

01:05:18

So As far as New Testament reliability and some of the debates I've watched and I think in Dan Wallace when he was talking with Bart Herman towards the end they talked about I think someone said basically, well if you're if you

01:05:34

Something about if you give it if you take out Reliability of the New Testament and you got to take out reliability of any other manuscripts of antiquity

01:05:42

And I understand that argument and so that got me thinking. Okay, are there any manuscripts of antiquity that people are

01:05:50

Using today using quote -unquote using maybe the foundation of what they do today is based upon those manuscripts, but they just don't know it

01:05:59

You understand what I'm saying? Well, I know the context the context obviously is that the

01:06:06

New Testament is the the best Attested document of antiquity and therefore since there are so all sorts of other books

01:06:14

Greek and Latin works Pliny and Sputonius and so on and so forth Philo and and Plato and and and all these works of antiquity.

01:06:27

They're roughly contemporaneous the New Testament We have all those sources being cited regularly in scholarship, even though we do not have

01:06:37

Nearly as much evidence As far as not only numbers but early dates of manuscripts that underlie those particular works

01:06:46

And so if you're gonna do the Bart Ehrman Well, it's sometimes

01:06:51

Bart Ehrman sometimes not Bart Ehrman depends on what day the week it is for Bart Ehrman But if you if you do the extreme skepticism route then by by Necessity and consistency you're gonna have to be extremely even more

01:07:11

Skeptical about all of these other works and there I think I've heard Ehrman say

01:07:16

It's been a while since I've done much with old Bart because he's not doing nearly as many debates and stuff these days

01:07:21

But I think I've heard him say yeah. Yeah, we should be just as skeptical about these other things but the reality is no one is as Skeptical about these these other sources and that there is a general scholarly consensus that we have a sufficient knowledge

01:07:37

Of what Plato wrote there there might be more passages. We're not exactly sure what terminology he used

01:07:44

But but in general we know Plato's corpus and we know Philo and we know Suetonius and Tacitus and all the other the rest of the gang from back then even though we don't have nearly as much or as early a

01:07:57

Manuscript testimony and so that the basic idea is you're being inconsistent. Maybe you have a an axe to grind

01:08:05

Against the New Testament, which certainly Bart Ehrman does And and hence you're being inconsistent is

01:08:13

You're being inconsistent I know you're not talking about me, but So so say somebody says, okay.

01:08:21

I agree with you. I I Understand what you're saying about these other works as well, and I feel that way as well

01:08:30

Right. I mean it that is the only position to take and if someone takes that position, which is exceptionally rare at least they're being consistent and you could really then push them to Adopt the absurd view that Basically, we we don't know anything about history until I a pretty recent period

01:08:54

Maybe back to the Revolutionary War period or something like that. I mean you really could push it so far with some of those ultra skepticism that Ehrman has sometimes enunciated that until 1949 and the invention of the the photocopier you could never have the accurate transmission of text and things like that But the whole idea is that it's extremely rare to have that kind of a skeptic and when you run into one

01:09:23

They're not to be able to be consistent Because they're not going to be able to make much of any type of historical arguments because from their perspective

01:09:29

They don't have a clue what happened in history. And so all they can do is they say they say well, I don't know Well, I don't know. So nobody really does that and I guess that's the idea is that you're yeah,

01:09:38

I think that's where I And Sorry, the person that's being skeptical is me

01:09:44

Unfortunately, and I mean I just finished dr. Kruger's book that that you recommended

01:09:50

Maybe back at g3 and I think sometimes I get stuck on some of these YouTube comment sections and YouTube not

01:09:58

YouTube comment sections well like like it like if I'm watching like a debate or if I'm watching something related to Christianity and I can't reach out to that specific person to have them expound upon an idea

01:10:11

They talked about maybe sometimes I'll go down in the YouTube comment section just to see if there's anything worth reading which very rarely is there ever right by the way, and so I Think sometime.

01:10:22

I don't know. Maybe I just need to understand my own argument better and I don't know.

01:10:28

I just seem confused lately for some reason. I'm trying to figure that out Well, so but I'm confused as to what you are skeptical about I mean

01:10:39

What what is there so is there a difference between Reliability and believability when you think about the

01:10:45

New Testament, of course because there's all sorts of ancient texts that are reliable But they're completely unbelievable

01:10:51

Okay, and how would you transfer if you if you how you transfer from reliability to believability?

01:10:59

spirit of God primarily I Mean it obviously has to do with what the content is. I mean we have we have we have papyri copies of Bills of sale and stuff like that are completely reliable and completely believable.

01:11:12

I mean people were selling stuff in Caesarea Maritima and we've found papyri that talk about it.

01:11:19

So it's it's reliable and it's believable, but it's irrelevant to us It's irrelevant to us today

01:11:25

So there is the issue of the reliability the transmission of the text over time because what it contains is important But that's fundamentally a different thing than the content which engages us in discussions today of a supernatural worldview versus a naturalist worldview and the the standards that are going to flow from from the worldview you bring and the

01:11:52

From my perspective absolute emptiness of a secular worldview and and the things that fall flow from it

01:11:58

It also introduces you to areas of comparing claims of Muslims have their claims and we've got our claims and and and so you've got that realm of Discussion and believability and consistency and and things along those lines.

01:12:18

We address that fairly fairly frequently But when you boil it all down the the real the real question is do you

01:12:26

Do you believe that an empty tomb

01:12:33

Is what makes the difference between all the ancient teachers and the one who prophesied his own death and Resurrection and left behind an empty tomb

01:12:45

You know sort of like I need to understand better my own why

01:12:50

I'm vacillating recently Maybe I don't think I understand that about myself right now.

01:12:56

Well, I'll be honest with you sometimes That answer

01:13:02

Will frighten you because it'll point you to certain aspects of your life that you may even be deceiving yourself about and it may

01:13:10

Not have anything to do with epistemology or history or anything else we are complicated creatures and we

01:13:19

Find ways of Hiding from God Yeah, yeah, so okay.

01:13:27

I would okay. Yeah, I'd look at that. I can't I can't I can't over a phone line

01:13:34

Do spiritual diagnosis, but oh, no. Yeah, but I That that might be something, you know, that's that's why it's good to have good good brothers in the

01:13:43

Lord that you can just I honestly Ask hey What do you what do you see in me and get a good a good conversation started?

01:13:52

Got it. Yeah, and that's that's my next step and and you can let rich know to not worry about the

01:13:58

Send a message and do you guys contact form on a oh man? Okay, because I wasn't sure if I'd be calling anytime soon because it works been crazy.

01:14:06

But so I appreciate it and Okay, right Alright, thanks.

01:14:12

Thanks. God bless. We'll see you. Yeah Well, I don't think Ryan would mind too much if I said

01:14:20

You're a praying person. I get the feeling you might want to pray for Ryan At least that's feeling that that I got from what?

01:14:27

From what I just heard there. So anyway again great calls and Rich is grabbing the microphone

01:14:36

So I'm gonna have to definitely upload this one because Al fell off his tricycle again So we recovered there and then you know, he's doing the

01:14:44

Artie Johnson on the tricycle thing and there it went over You know, so I know I just dated myself so and I Couldn't hear anything.

01:14:52

You just said so that's great I'd already taken the earpiece out. So whatever brilliant piece of rhetoric

01:14:58

Rich Pierce just Imbued the audience with as a great gift. I didn't get to hear it and tend to Thanksgiving.

01:15:06

I'm thankful All Right, so I'm sorry,

01:15:12

I actually had some people I Had some people who were complaining that we're gonna do a program on Friday because it's

01:15:18

Black Friday Well, look if look if you're if you're a guy like me

01:15:25

It takes five minutes to do your Black Friday shopping online. You already know what you need to get

01:15:32

You Do it. Well, nah, they're they're even doing online stuff before that. So Now now girls,

01:15:39

I understand, you know, it takes you a while that you know I don't even know how you do it online because the whole joy is trying stuff on and all that kind of stuff

01:15:47

I know I'm being a sexist, but that's how my wife works. That's how I work That's how most of us do and I don't think there's anything wrong with that So anyway, but we're supposed to be back on Friday To do yet another program and that means that when

01:16:00

I go away in early well late November early December and We don't get any programs in that means can't complain too much because we did try to sort of work ahead

01:16:12

So anyway, thanks for watching the program today. We'll see you on Friday. Have a great