What Happened to Max Lucado?

The Galatian Heresy and Adding Works to the Gospel

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris. We got another short episode today. I think this is the third episode I've released in the last four days. So hopefully you're enjoying these shorter, more frequent episodes.

The reason for them is I'm seeing articles and things I want to respond to that are short. It don't take me more than half an hour to talk about them. And so today is no exception. I saw an article yesterday on Max Lucado and I guess he's gone kind of social justice.

He's a Christian author and a pastor. So we're gonna talk about that. I'm gonna read the article word for word. We're gonna respond to it. First, I just want to thank you for praying for my father-in-law, Frank.

He's out of ICU now, which is amazing. He was on death's door a week and a half ago. I'm not usually very, I don't share personal things very often, but this was a scary moment for my wife and our family.

And he's an elder at his church. He's kind of like an elder and the whole deacon board wrapped up into one person. It's a small church. So just a lot of responsibilities he had that the church is now, people in the church are stepping up and doing.

And it's good to see the body of Christ coming together, but they still don't know what happened. He's on the heart floor and doing remarkably better, but still connected to catheters and things like that.

Still weak. So I just appreciate your prayers. Thank you so much for those who've sent support to us in the form of encouragement. It does mean a lot. Now I want to get into a Bible verse before we start everything.

Let's talk about this passage. This is in Galatians chapter two, 11 through 14. Think with me as we read this about the Galatian heresy. The Galatian heresy, meaning adding works to the gospel, adding these things that were unique to the Jewish people didn't apply to everyone in a moral way, but these laws that were unique to Old Testament Israel being applied now to Christians.

And not only that, but Christians told that they must, if they're truly a Christian, they must keep these laws. And so this was a problem. The whole book of Galatians is written against this. And I'd like to suggest we're seeing something very similar in some quarters of the woke social justice Christianity that is emerging lately.

And it's funny. I saw it was, I think it was Neil Shenvey actually, defending the fact that he went to J .D. Greer's church. Someone sent me some screenshots of him just defending it. It's a gospel centered church.

J .D. Greer and all, it's not just him, it's Tim Keller, it's Russell Moore. A lot of these guys, whenever you hear them say things like gospel issue, or Black Lives Matter is a gospel issue. J .D. Greer's even said the law, the justice is actually specifically the word he used.

Justice is the first part of the gospel or the beginning of the gospel. And they really want to attach the gospel to social justice issues, right? This is, whenever I hear that, I think about the Galatian heresy.

I just think, okay, you're adding to the gospel then. Because you're saying this is part of, what's the gospel? The good news that Jesus Christ has come into this world has taken our sin on himself. We can be in a right relationship with God through what he's done.

That's the gospel, that's the good news. It's not good news when you start adding layers of works to the gospel and saying this is part of it. J .D. Greer does this. He's done this on multiple occasions.

He makes a habit of it, and so have many others. Like I said, people that have been sucked into the more social justice-driven Christianity, where eliminating hierarchies is part of the Christian agenda somehow.

And so, and that's a direct quote from J .D. Greer, the eliminating all hierarchies, that that's what Christianity, or at least part of what Christianity is about. So, I want you to parallel these things.

As we read this, realize, okay, some guys who are solid, right? Some guys, I mean, Peter, he's an apostle, right? Guys who, they were saved, some of them, and they fell into this for a time. Now, I don't think you can fall into heresy long-term.

There's no way. Something's gotta give eventually, right? And there's a whole different category for false teachers who truly are knowingly promoting heresy. And there's some guys, I don't know where they line up today.

I don't know. Are they a false teacher? Do they really understand what they're doing to some extent, and they're knowingly promoting a false gospel? Or are they just deceived, falling into this false gospel, not realizing, but they're gonna wake up.

They're gonna realize, wow, there's an inconsistency here. And it's sometimes hard to tell, but the more time goes on, the more, the benefit of the doubt, you can't give it anymore. It starts to move.

You move the benefit of the doubt away from the individuals you were giving it to, because you realize, wow, you've been corrected 10 times, and you've made this error over the course of years now. And so it becomes difficult.

And I'm very careful of trying to assume someone's a brother in Christ when they're promoting things like attaching works to the gospel in some way. So as we read this, think about what I've just talked about.

Galatians 2, 11 through 14. But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, if you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Okay, so what's going on here? A couple of things I just wanna point out very briefly before we get into the main issue we're gonna be talking about today. Cephas is Peter, right? So Peter comes to Antioch, and Paul opposes him to his face.

This is the way we're supposed to do this, by the way. That's why when people say like, John, you shouldn't be doing the kind of things you're doing online. You need to privately go to someone. Well, in Matthew 18, that's when someone sins against you, and I agree.

But when it's not a personal sin against me, when it's false teaching going out to the church publicly, what did Paul do? He went publicly to Peter, to his face. And the reason was because Peter stood condemned.

So this is out of, there's a love and a care here of some kind for Peter's own wellbeing. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. So he used to associate with people who were not Jewish, right?

And of course, what would this involve? Eating foods that were unclean, quote unquote, in the ceremonial law of the Old Testament. But when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party.

So what's happened is he is fearing, out of fear, out of, there's influential people that have come in, and side note here, a lot of woke guys will try to use this passage as, look, it's identity politics.

Look, it's Jews and Gentiles. It's racial groups. That is ridiculous. That's not the issue. They weren't looking at their skin color or looking at other external ethnic identity marks of some kind and saying, well, that's why we don't like these people.

It has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with the law. So when you hear people like Mark Dever talk about identity politics being at play in the Council of Jerusalem, then realize he's not being quite honest with you about what, either he doesn't understand what identity politics is or he doesn't understand what the Council of Jerusalem was about.

And so what we have here is not a racial, quote unquote, issue. This is an issue of the law and religion and whether or not you must keep the law and to be a true Christian. These are Jewish believers, quote unquote, coming in.

And it's fear of them. It's fear of these people that keeps Peter doing the wrong thing, not associating with the Gentiles. The rest of the Jews joined him in the hypocrisy. So this is a leader. Peter's a leader and people follow Peter into this hypocrisy.

Does this sound familiar? Does this sound like some of the evangelical, quote unquote, leaders today who start, because out of fear from Black Lives Matter or the popularity of social justice in the world or in their denomination or association, they're gonna just go along with this and now their whole congregations are following them into it?

I know because I get the emails from people at these churches. They feel alone, a lot of them. And they're not, but they're afraid. The other people at the church are afraid. And so this is what Peter did.

The rest of the Jews joined him in the hypocrisy and the result that even Barnabas, even someone really solid, you wouldn't expect this person, and this is really what I wanna emphasize, someone you wouldn't think Barnabas would be the guy.

Come on, Barnabas isn't gonna fall for that and yet he goes along with it. And a lot of you are discouraged. You're thinking, how in the world can Christians who I've trusted, solid teachers of the Bible, I thought, how can they not see this?

This is what Phil Johnson asked Al Mohler to Lincoln Duncan, to Mark Dever. Do you not see this? And of course, Al Mohler got very upset with him when he asked that question, but that's how you feel right now.

Do you not see this? This is what Paul did when he opposed him. Do you not see this? But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, in the presence of all, not privately, not behind the scenes, not you said something publicly that was in error and I'm gonna go correct you behind the scenes.

No, no, no, in the presence of all, think about this. Paul wasn't contradicting Matthew 18, guys. I guarantee you that. In the presence of all, if you being a Jew live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

He's saying you're a hypocrite, Peter. You're a hypocrite. You don't actually believe deep down that you have to keep all these ceremonial laws. You don't live like that. You'll eat unclean things, but now you're living in such a, your public face, the way that you're behaving publicly out of fear is that you're insinuating and you're leading other people into believing that the Gentiles have to live like the Jews in the church.

We're seeing the exact same thing. History repeats itself, guys, all the time. We're seeing a repeat of the same thing. And I've talked about many men who have fallen, the mighty have fallen, but maybe they weren't so mighty.

Max Lucado, Social Justice, and Public Confession

Max Lucado is unfortunately now one of the ones that seems to be going down this path. And are we gonna love him because he stands condemned perhaps? Are we going to correct him? Are those close to him going to talk to him about this?

Are we willing to do it publicly the way Paul did, or do we just let this kind of thing slide? Because, well, he's been faithful in other areas. Or it would be not, it would be unchristian. No, no, it is Christian to call these things out.

Let's talk about who Max Lucado is. Max Lucado is a pastor at Oak Hills Church in San Antonio where he co-pastors with Randy, I think I'm pronouncing this right, Frazee from Willow Creek Community Church.

So he's got a guy from Willow Creek there, which is interesting to me. That's Bill Heibel's church that, kind of this, you know, they were the church growth guys. I don't know if Randy Frazee believes in that, but that's who he's co-pastoring with.

He's authored 129 books and regularly appears on the New York Times bestsellers list. That's a lot of books, guys. He's appeared on Fixer Upper. So my wife loves that show. I'm sure she's probably seen him on there because I'm sure she's probably seen most of the episodes.

Fox News, Larry King Live, et cetera. So he's been all over the media. He's actually spoken at the National Prayer Breakfast. He was America's pastor, according to Christianity Today Magazine, in 2005, and he was named by Reader's Digest as the best preacher in America in 2007.

So pretty high accolades there. He's made it into the evangelical elite for certain. I don't know if that you get more evangelical elite. So that's who Max Licato is. Here's some things that are concerning as of late.

This is 2020, and it seems like, doesn't it seem like everything's just coming apart in 2020? Maybe things are just being revealed that we're already there. I don't know, but here's what happened. In, I think this was January, I was looking at some articles.

These two, I think I first found through Reformation Charlotte, but they had links to the primary sources or videos of primary source material. So Max Licato on Jen Hat, he talked about Jen Hatmaker in January, 2020.

Jen Hatmaker promotes the gay Christian stuff, like overtly great gay Christian stuff. And this is what he said about her. I think so highly of you. You energize me to listen to your podcast. The other day I caught myself needing to get out of the car, but I was listening to your podcast and I just sat and I just sat and I just sat.

You make it so easy and delightful and yet profound at the same time. And I would, it's just weird to me if Jen Hatmaker is truly a false teacher, which I don't know how you can say she's not. She's promoting terrible ideas, anti-biblical ideas.

Even if you enjoy, I'm trying to think of a scenario in which you're listening to someone you disagree with, but you enjoy listening to them. That can happen. But when you do that, you're gonna add a lot of caveats.

You're gonna talk about how, we don't disagree or we don't agree on much, but I enjoy listening to you. Or some kind of warning, knowing that you're an evangelical leader, knowing people are listening to you.

I mean, this almost sounds like an endorsement. And so anyway, he later said, there was a quote I had read where he said that Jen Hatmaker stretches him, which you could start to see how maybe that sounds like he's saying he doesn't agree with everything, but at the same time, that's really weak.

There's no opposing her to her face like Paul did with Peter, which is what, there should be some of that at least, you would think. In May of 2020, this might've been April, late April, I'm not sure, but the article was posted May 1st.

He had, I don't know if it's his podcast or it was some outlet he was hosting. Max Lucado was hosting this and he had his friend Steven Ferdinand doing a talk. Now, Steven Ferdinand, he's prosperity guy, prosperity gospel.

He's even promoted ideas that sound like modalism, so anti-Trinitarian, that's heretical. And here's Max Lucado. Now, maybe he's not aware of all that, but you really should be aware of that with Steven Ferdinand.

I mean, that shows some kind of a lack of vetting at the very least, but he says he's his friend, so he knows him on a deeper level than we know him. And so there's an association here, which is just, it should at least make us question, scratch our heads a little bit.

Okay, Max Lucado, you're Orthodox, what are you doing sounding like you're kind of endorsing Jen Hatmaker or Steven Furtick on some level? Then there's this. Max Lucado attends George Floyd prayer vigil, calls on Americans to turn to Christ, June 3rd, 2020.

Now, what do we make of this? Because a lot of evangelical leaders have done this. This was the faith and works thing. It's a Black Lives Matter light kind of event. Some Christians went to these Black Lives Matter events.

Others are going to these Black Lives Matter light events that Christians are putting on. And at best, Black Lives Matter is an overtly Marxist organization. They claim that. They say they're trained Marxists.

They're a secular religion. I explained this in two videos. You can go to Why Are All My Friends Marxist and Black Lives Matter in the New Religion, two videos that I go through this. To put things in perspective, what would it be like if there was a cult that was holding events that were unique to that cult all over the country out of the blue?

I don't know, pick whatever you want to pick. Native American cult of some kind that's attracting new members to their cult to worship at their altar, and they are all about preserving the environment, okay?

Let's just say something like that is going on. It's overtly, it's a false religion of some kind. Would we then in the midst of that wanna say, well, me too, we're gonna do the same thing, some of the same assumptions, but we're gonna just have the gospel and we're not gonna be violent about it.

We'd probably look at someone who wanted to do that and say, why don't you wait? Or why don't you, are you sure you wanna do this in the midst of the context of these Black Lives Matter rallies in which they're demeaning the police and they're sometimes breaking things.

And not only that, but their philosophy is undergirding this or Marxist. You really wanna go that direction? I remember years ago, I was in California for seminary and I had a college ministry background.

I wanted to find a ministry I could get involved with on a college campus. And I went to this ministry, it was CSUN and the guy, Jesse Johnson, I still remember, I think was the name of the guy leading it.

And I had asked him, I really wanna do evangelism here. How can we do that? Is there an evangelism ministry? And he said, well, not really. We used to, but right now, we're just inviting people to the group because we don't wanna be associated with the Mother God cult, which is kind of the vernacular of the people phrase.

But really, the cult is called the Church of God. That's the name of the cult. But everyone calls it the Mother God cult because they believe God is a woman. They believe Aung San Hung is Jesus. And he died in the 70s, it was Jesus' second coming.

It is a South Korean cult. I've talked to these guys for hours. No doubt in my mind, they are a cult. And the leader at the time did not wanna be associated with them. So they're very aggressive, they're proselytizing tactics.

And so he wanted to just stay away from that and try to, I guess, figure out a more creative way of trying to get the message out to people of the true gospel. And whether you agree with that or not, which, and at the time, I really didn't, but whether you agree with that or not, there's a legitimate concern there of not wanting to be associated with this false religion.

And I wonder if we've lost some of that because this is the popular movement. The world loves this movement. And trying to kind of ride their coattails, trying to somehow be like, we agree with you. It's just, it comes off as you're endorsing the greater movement.

And so if you're, I mean, if you're gonna do something about injustice, then you, to be consistent, you're not gonna just pick George Floyd. I mean, now that the autopsy report and the camera footage has come out, you're probably really not gonna wanna pick the George Floyd situation.

And again, I believe from the beginning, I still believe it was horrific to see what happened to George Floyd. It's horrific to see what that police officer did. It was, I think I had posted at the time within hours of seeing that video, how could anyone do this?

This is either ineptness or this is police brutality. I don't see an option. And I still believe that. I still believe that this was over the top. But when you see the full context with the body cam footage that was just released, you see that a few things that were assumed at the beginning by many people were completely wrong.

I mean, this guy, George Floyd was lying to them from the beginning. He was resisting them the whole entire time. There's no reason to think that this had anything to do with race. And of course, the whole, it's just one big lie that this was just police that were racist, immediately tackling him to the ground to kill him.

I mean, that's the narrative that everyone seems to believe. And that's what would spark these kinds of events. So when you participate in that, you're reinforcing that narrative. And that narrative we now know is inaccurate.

We also know that from the autopsy report, the guy was high. And it looks like it wasn't even the knee of, I forget the officer's name off the top of my head, but what we saw was not actually the actual cause of death.

Now, could it have contributed? I'm sure the stress of that whole situation contributed, but it wasn't because he couldn't get oxygen. That wasn't the reason that he died. And so now that we're finding out some of these things, hopefully some of us are saying, yes, this was bad.

Yes, this was a policeman who either didn't know what he was doing, or this was over the top. But at least, hopefully we're also seeing that this isn't exactly what we were told at the beginning. And to have entire events across the country that now are talking about systemic injustice and all these problems that America has, that America needs to rip down their history, America needs to get rid of the police, or at least reform the police, this is unmerited.

And then Christians get behind it. So I've waxed too long about this at this point, but you see where I'm coming from on this. You see why I would scratch my head. And again, I'm not saying it's a sin to go out.

There's no Bible verse that says it is a sin to go out and hold a prayer vigil for George Floyd. There's not, but it's the impression. It's the optics of it. What are you trying to communicate to people when you do this in the context of what's going on in the country at the time?

Now, this makes it worse, in my opinion. He did this at a time when the church, and I tried to look this up as best as I could, the church was not meeting. In other words, because of COVID -19, Max Lucado's church wasn't having services.

They were on internet services. They're still having internet services. And I put the COVID -19 response here where they talk about this. You can go to their website. You can look at their COVID -19 response.

Go to their videos from the past few months. You can see they're online. They're not in-person gatherings. Now, put that in perspective. Going to a worship service, having a worship service, nah, it's not that important because we can just do that online.

But we need to show up in person for the George Floyd prayer vigil, and our pastor, Max Lucado, is going to speak at it. Does this just, what does this smell like to you? I mean, it smells like hypocrisy to me.

It smells like your priorities are in the wrong place. So I found that out. Now, here's the article. So why did I bring all that up? I brought that up to just say there seems to be a slide in 2020 with Max Lucado, or at least there's revelations of some things that we didn't realize before that now we're seeing.

Here's what I saw, and we're just gonna read this. I'm gonna respond to it. Pastor Max Lucado asks forgiveness for Christian white supremacy, San Antonio Report, August 9th, 2020. Realize, he's doing this at a time his church is not meeting in person, but there he is at an event where people are meeting.

Prominent local pastor and author Max Lucado got down on his knees Sunday in San Antonio to beg forgiveness for his and his white ancestors' acts of racism and inaction. Now, this is written by the San Antonio Report.

I've said this before, but when we hear the language of lament, we're just lamenting in our church. We're having a lament service because Christians who do that, they wanna get away from the word repent.

They wanna say, well, we're not repenting, we're lamenting. Because they know if they start doing the repenting thing, they're in trouble. They're playing with some biblical doctrine of repentance there.

But if they say lament, they can kinda get away with it. Now, my point is the world doesn't see it that way. The world sees it, it's repenting. Because what does he say here? Yeah, Max Lucado, he's getting down on his knees.

He's asking, he's begging for forgiveness. I'm sorry that I have been silent. I am sorry that my head has been buried in the sand, Lucado said. My brothers and sisters are hurting and I am sorry. I have made them to feel less than.

I did not help. I did not hear. I did not see. I did not understand. Now, what is it that he is not seeing what he's not understanding? Now, the article goes on, says organizers estimated that roughly 3 ,000 people of all faiths, of all faiths, attended the emotional park and pray event at Freeman Coliseum Sunday evening to follow local faith leaders in prayer to eliminate racism and coronavirus.

At least 23 ,000 more were watching online. All faiths. So he's doing this. He is repenting to, saying to an audience of not just Christians, presumably. All faiths, so Muslims there, Catholics there, in the sense of Roman Catholics, so not Protestants.

I mean, are Mormons there? Like how far, how ecumenical is this event that he's willing to go to while their church is just doing online streams? And there he is, he's standing up there. He doesn't have a mask on.

You know, reading, I guess, from the Bible, but that's the picture. The Oak Hills Church pastor's prayer comes amid Black Lives Matter protests and calls for racial equity across the nation. Look, the world sees this.

This is part of my point. If you think you're doing something different, we're Christians, we're gonna get behind this. No, the world looks at that and they're saying, okay, yeah, he's saying he's sorry, and this is in the context of the Black Lives Matter protests.

Of course they're connected in the mind of people that are observers outside the church. Lucado spoke candidly about the sin of racism in and outside of the church. Your church, your pastors have broken your heart by favoring one skin color over another.

Oh Lord God, have mercy on our souls. How dare we? How? That must nauseate you, oh Lord, he said, adding that those sins extend to brown skin and that he himself has committed them. So, so far we have nothing.

We have no, it's just, you know, we don't understand. We are, we're racists. The church is racist. I mean, if you really wanna create a formula for making sure the young people leave the church, why don't you just say that we're just all a bunch of racists the church is characterized by racism and that's part of who we are.

You really wanna be part of that organization? Probably not. It's like the least, the least tolerated, quote unquote, sin in America is racism. So that's who we are. Now, so he's making all these accusations.

Well, where's the meat? Where's the proof? Well, here it is. The word wetback has found its way on my lips too, he said. For that, I'm so sorry, so very sorry. Would you please, oh Lord, bring a new day.

Now, I remember when, so I was a teenager when this happened, but I remember I had a thought about if something my mom was, a dress my mom was wearing or something, and I had a thought to myself that this particular dress didn't look as good on her as other things she had worn.

And so I decided to tell her that, right? And as a young teenager, you can imagine how that went for me. And of course, I remember my father sitting me down and saying, you know, because I think my father was kind of like, look, you're gonna get into your dating years here and you can't do that.

Like, keep that to yourself, right? And so one of the things that I learned is that when you sin, you're sinning against someone, either someone who's a person or someone who is the Lord, right? Or, and if you sin against a person, you're also sinning against the Lord.

So you're always sinning against the Lord whenever you sin, but sometimes you're sinning against a person as well. Now, here's the question. If someone doesn't know that you've sinned against them, right, they're completely unaware of it, is it your responsibility to go tell them, I had a bad thought about you?

I mean, should you tell your friends? If your friends knew all the thoughts you ever had about them or even your wife or your kids, if they knew the thoughts that you had about them or your husband or your parents, what would they think of you?

Would that be a cruel thing to confess those things to them, to tell them, or would that be the right thing? Now, if it's connected to, if there's a pattern of behavior and you're exhibiting that to them and they can see it and it's obvious and you're hurting them, then yeah, maybe it's appropriate to say, you know what, I've harbored these feelings for a while, I'm sorry, because they're coming out and they're hurting that person.

But if you're not hurting them, if they don't know and it's a fleeting thought and you get rid of it, or you said something to yourself, or you said something when they weren't present, and is that something you wanna bring up and tell them?

Because now they know that you've said it. Before they didn't, now they do. And think about your own life. Go back and think about all the things you've said in the last however many years. If we were to have a transcript of everything you've ever said, everything you've texted, jokes out of context, jokes that were a little off color and you just didn't think them through and you said them, what kind of ammunition would we have to destroy your public character?

Probably loads of it. Probably everyone would be canceled, every single person in the country, right? If we could do that, and now bring it to your mind. If you had a transcript of everything you've thought.

When Max Lucado does this, I think it's cruel in a way. I think that. I just don't think there's not a reason to say, to apologize to a whole community of people, to a whole demographic. Well, I said this about you guys once.

Well, they didn't even know you said it about them. Well, now they do, because you're saying that you, so you're bringing up something that can cause potential hurt when you didn't need to. You could have just confessed that to the Lord and moved on.

You didn't actually sin against them in the sense, in a way that hurt them. Now you're hurting them because you're bringing it up. So to me, this actually is selfish when you do something like that. This is kind of, look at me.

Look, this is the Pharisaical prayer. Look, I'm confident enough to admit that I've said this kind of thing. And now you're hurting people in your own confession, where they weren't hurt before. The article goes on.

Car horns blared throughout the parking lot in support of his message. They were parked at least one space apart to ensure social distancing. So they, I guess, couldn't figure out a way to do this for church.

But they're doing it for this event. And then it talks about this black pastor. According to the article, black pastor, Dorian Williams, and he has a prayer of forgiveness. Never in my life have I ever seen a white person say to me that I'm sorry, Williams said, pausing to hold back, then release tears.

That I'm sorry for what happened to your people and our ancestors were wrong. It is a new day in San Antonio. What's going on here? You have, this is symbolic. You have, it's like the federal head, this black pastor, forgiving Max Lucado, the white pastor, on behalf of white people who are the oppressors and black people who are the victims.

And this ignores the complexity of history, totally. This ignores, just off the top of my head, how many quote unquote white people, people from Europe have come here since slavery was abolished in this country?

They don't have any connection to it. How many people who were here at the beginning of the country didn't have any ancestors who enslaved anyone? Because it was the minority of white people who were able to even do that.

How many black people in this country are descendant from slave owners either in Africa or slave owners in the United States? Because there were thousands in the South on the eve of the war who owned slaves, free black people who owned slaves.

So these lines are, I mean, think about even this, even those who owned slaves, like Thomas Jefferson. I was just reading some quotes by him the other day. Robert E. Lee, how many of those guys were in tough positions where it would be cruel for them, it would be a worse situation if they freed their slaves.

So they tried to practice, from what I understand, I'm not getting into the whole Jefferson situation in this episode and whether or not he, whether or not he did what people accused him of doing, but they, in essence, tried to treat their slaves charitably and that was the best they could do.

But at the same time, they didn't want slavery around. They wanted it to be gotten rid of through usually a progressive emancipation of some kind that wouldn't hurt the welfare of the slaves too much.

So, you know, how many people are like that where if you get into their biographies and you start reading about who they were and how they treated their slaves and what they thought of the institution, it's not as black and white as people make it out to be.

All that to say, to then have this cartoon of the black person's going to forgive the white person, you have already bought into the assumptions of the critical race theory paradigm. The new left critique, you bought into it at that point because that's what you're assuming.

You're assuming the guilt is on this person because they're white. And the innocence is on this person because they're black. And that's why the white person confesses and the black person forgives. It's not biblical.