Debate Tour REVIEW w/ Dr. James White @AominOrg

Contending for the Gospel of Grace and Standing on God's Word

Well hello everybody out there in Facebook world and YouTube land. Thank you for tuning in to The Apologetic Dog, where it's our heart's desire to contend for the gospel of grace. And we do this by standing on God's Word.

If you look for the logo of The Apologetic Dog, hopefully you see 1 Timothy 6 20, where Paul tells Timothy that we are to guard the gospel entrusted to us, and we avoid pagan philosophies, irreverent babble, and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.

I believe Jesus had something to say about that. He said, oh yeah, your Word is truth. And so we stand on the Word of God when we're engaging in apologetics, when we're engaging in truth, we engage the lost and dying world, and we trust God with these endeavors.

And so I'm a pastor and elder at 12 .5 Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas. 12 .5 comes from the Bible verse, Romans 12 verse 5, that says that the true saints, we are one together in the body of Christ. And so by one quick announcement that I just want to make y 'all aware of real quick is coming up April 5th, we are having a live debate at 12 .5 Church with yours truly and Mike Hysaw.

And so Mike Hysaw is a Church of Christ preacher in Texas, and he called up The Apologetic Dog one day and said, hey, how about we schedule a debate for baptism since you like to do that kind of thing?

And I said, let's do it. So we're really looking forward to that. I would love for you to come in person. Admission is absolutely free. Like I said, it's at 12 .5 Church in Jonesboro, and it'll also be live streamed here at The Apologetic Dog as well, so you can catch us there.

Debating Trent Horn, Purgatory, and Catholic Authority

Now that we got that out of the way, I have a special guest that I just have to go ahead and jump right in since we're talking about debates. And we have the debater of the age. Is that okay to say, Dr. White?

Can we use that phrase? I don't remember if Paul had a positive light in 1 Corinthians 1 when he said that. How are you doing?

I'm on my way home. Looking forward to getting home very, very much. And my wife's leaving the same day I get back, but I should be able to at least wave to her. And my kids and my grandkids, and I think I'm actually preaching Sunday, too.

So it's straight back into the fire, I guess you might say. And 35 days on the road, way too much. Really, really challenging trip physically. Lots of... I've never had to visit ERs and urgent care centers and stuff like that before, but we're still here.

Every once in a while, I'll have to hit the mute button and do some coughing. Haven't gotten rid of that. Yeah, it's been a challenge. We'll see if we can get to 200 debates, and then we'll retire and let the young people whose bodies are getting old continue the work.

The younger ones with beards that don't have as much silver.

That's true. Jeff's trying to catch up to me over the past six months. The bottom edge of his beard is definitely going white. And I think all the late night feedings with their two new adopted twin girls probably have a lot to do with that.

But now a lot of it's just simply pastoral ministry, and we just attract a lot of enemies. There's some nasty people. Apologia does church discipline, and if you do church discipline, you end up with people that if they remain unrepentant can get pretty nasty.

And yeah, we get to deal.

With stuff like that fairly regularly. Yeah, ministry will put white in your hair and beard, or used to be hair. But hey, that is a sign of wisdom, though, if I recall. And I'm just gonna embrace it one day, so I look forward to that.

Dr. White, you've done a few debate reviews on the dividing line, and I've even engaged with giving some of my reviews of your debates as well. So I figured today we could just kind of do a highlight reel, a debate tour review.

Tell us some of your favorite highlight moments in your debate tour. Well, man, it.

Seems like a lifetime ago that I debated Trent Horn. Actually, it seems like a lifetime ago that I was on the Ally Beth Stuckey show with Trent Horn. And what's really weird is, as far as I know, that has started to air on her show.

I have not had anyone say anything about it. I've not seen it. I've not seen any.

Commentary on it. You gotta pay that Monet. I'm sorry? I said you might have to pay to see that interview. I don't know. Oh, BlazeTV? I honestly don't know. I'm not sure. I don't.

Know either. But anyway, that's how it all started. That was on a Tuesday, and then the debates with Trent Horn were on Friday, Saturday. And I think, and I did not plan this, but I think the real value of those two debates was the fact they were back-to-back.

So Roman Catholics use Sola Scriptura the same way Jehovah's Witnesses use the Trinity. It's their brick bat. It's their big topic. They consider it always to be a winner for them. And it's because it addresses ultimate authorities, and people haven't thought through ultimate authorities.

They'll never defend their claim. I mean, Trent Horn, so I was willing to defend apostolic succession. That's not Rome's modus operandi. If they're gonna defend their ultimate source of authority, it's Pope Francis.

And they won't do that for Lovner money right now. None of them will. So they sort of get away with that right now. And having the purgatory debate the next night was extremely useful, because his arguments were almost completely, well, were biblically completely drawn from Protestant interpreters.

And he was going, well, you know, purgatory could be this, could be that, it could be instantaneous, it could be this. And you're like, wait a minute. Every Catholic in the audience who's been a Catholic for almost any amount of time at all well knows that's not what they believed only 20 years ago.

And why is there such uncertainty, given what had been claimed the night before about the positive faith and all the rest of this stuff? You should have clear and compelling arguments for a dogma of Rome.

And he's relying on Protestant marginal interpretations of texts to substantiate his position. And I had Roman Catholics contacting me going, I couldn't believe what I was hearing. And I'm like, I really couldn't either, to be perfectly honest with you.

So that was not my plan. I just wanted to have something where the gospel would be central. But it turned out real well, to have it work that way. And by the way, you get to, the sun's down here, so I can now look out.

Ooh, it's a pretty sunset. You get to host my announcement of my next two debates that I have not announced anywhere else. Not on Twitter, Facebook, on the Dividing Line. This will be the first announcement of two debates coming up at the end of April in Lafayette, Louisiana.

And we have been literally struggling since November to get this worked out. And I'll tell all the story about that later on. Not today, but after the debates are over. But two more Roman Catholic debates.

Now, this is what's really interesting. We have been trying to get a representative of Catholic Answers to debate the subject, how does a man have peace with God? That shows how old I am that I say man, you know.

But you know, that's really how the English language worked for a long time. How does a man have peace with God? And you see, that way both sides have to make a positive presentation. It's not just one side denying the other side.

Both sides have to, you know, do something meaningful in the course of the debate. And the topic of the conference I'll be doing there, for about seven churches that are cooperating together, is on evangelizing Roman Catholics, presenting the Gospel of peace to Roman Catholics.

So it works perfectly. When we contacted Catholic Answers, we mentioned Tim Staples, and some of their other, Carlo Broussard, and some of the other people. We specifically said, I'm debating Trent Horne.

I'm doing all this stuff with Trent Horne, and so we'd like to maybe have a new face, you know, involved in all this. So they said, well, about the only person that we could offer would be Jimmy Akin.

Okay, I did three hours, I did three days on the Bible Answer Man broadcast with Jimmy Akin back in the 90s, as I recall, which is ironic given what's happened with Hank Hanegraaff. And we did a radio debate once on, I think it was on John 6, ironically, but we hadn't done debates back in the 90s.

Chris Arnzen had contacted him a number of times to try to get him to be a part of Great Debate Series, and he wouldn't fly. And this was long before COVID, so he just is afraid to fly. And so that had never ended up working out.

And so we've been struggling to get this to work out. So I debate Trent Horne, those two debates we were just talking about, Sola Scriptura and Purgatory. The next Monday, the pastor who's been arranging all this stuff contacts them and says, look, we've been really trying to get an answer one way or the other here.

April's coming, we need to be able to advertise. Could we get this worked out? And he's told that Jimmy Akin will debate, how does a man have peace with God, only if I will do a second debate at the same time.

Not the same time as that debate, obviously. Right, right. Commit to a second debate. A two-night thing. And guess what? Jimmy Akin demands that I debate him on in April. Are you talking about which passage of.

Scripture? No, topic. All right, you gotta tell me, it's around having peace with God? Nope. All right, tell me. Again, he wants a crack at it. Now think.

About that. This was on the Monday after I just debated Trent Horne on Sola.

Scriptura. I wonder how Trent Horne feels about that. That was the first thing.

Across my mind. You know, they're all working remotely now. They're not in the same office in Catholic Answers in Southern California. But that might be good right now. I was just like, okay, this will be the fifth time I have debated that subject against representatives of Catholic Answers.

Five times. Twice with Jerry Madetik. They might say, yeah, well, the second time he wasn't with us anymore. Well, he had been a representative for a long time. Patrick Madrid, Trent Horne, and now Jimmy Akin.

Five times. So I'm like, why? But okay, if that's what we've got to do to make this work. I know his arguments are. They're published. I've refuted them on the dividing line. I've put his books and his arguments up on the screen in the big studio in Phoenix and displayed his arguments right there and refuted them.

But if we need to do that in a debate format, okay. If that's where we've got to go, then that's what we got to do. And so we finally, after all that time, got confirmation today that that's what's going to be happening.

And I didn't hear back about the cross-examination stuff. You got to give Trent Horne credit. The church there in Houston wants to have lots of interaction. And so there's a total of 40 minutes of cross-examination, 20 minutes from each side.

And Trent Horne did not balk at that. And he's willing to do that. And if I'm known for almost anything, I'm known for being able to do cross-examination, both asking questions and making points during cross-examination, as well as responding.

That's something that I learned to do early on, learned that was really where the debate takes place, and have a lot of experience in that area. And Trent doesn't hide from that. You may have noticed that Dale Tuggy, there was only 10 minutes on each side.

There was half as much cross-examination. And I had forgotten until I sat down on the stage on Saturday night that one of Tuggy's demands to do the debate, aside from we had to exchange opening statements, was to only have 10 minutes of cross-ex.

So you can tell how confident someone is by how they deal with the issue of cross-examination. So looking at what they sent us today for an outline of these debates, they only wanted eight minutes of cross-examination for each side, grand total, less than half of what we did with Trent Horne.

I don't know what came of that. I requested an increase in that. But anyway, so there's what's upcoming at the end of April in Louisiana, is we will be debating Sola Scriptura, and then how does a man have feasts with God.

Well, those would be exciting because that's very gospel, right? I mean, I thought you were going to say, he said, y 'all could debate it as long as you didn't read Romans 5 .1.

No, he didn't do that.

Because that really does get, I mean, it reminds me of your past debates about, you know, who is the blessed man? I mean, definitely, didn't Trent Horne, wasn't there a wager going on? Was it in the first or second debate on how to?

It was the second debate, and yeah, it was something along those lines. I forget exactly what it was. But his answer to the blessed man question was the only answer that they can give. The blessed man is the individual who was just baptized before he walks out of the church.

The way he put it was, you know, gone to confession or something like that. But that actually doesn't work either because if you've gone to confession, you've received absolution for the sins, you still have penances to do, and you have temporal punishments, and they're imputed to you.

So you're not the blessed man. The blessed man of Romans 4 .8 does not have his sin imputed to him because it's been imputed to Christ in his place. And they have no non-imputation of sin. And so no matter how hard they try, what they're going to end up having to say is, I can only be the blessed man as a child when baptized as an infant.

And there really isn't any other way because if you've committed a mortal sin, there's temporal punishments. If you've committed a venial sin, there's temporal punishments. And it is fascinating that today's representatives of Roman Catholicism do not want to use terms like temporal punishment.

That's dogmatic language of Rome. That's in their dogmatic definitions in the Catholic catechism and everything else. But they are softening all of that. And it really makes me wonder, you know, Catholics who've been Catholics for a long time, they have to go, man, stuff's changing.

And yeah, stuff is. So anyway, yeah, that'll be very, very interesting. And I'm looking forward to it. I wish it hadn't been so hard to get it set up. But now that it's set up, I hope that the format of the debate will be enough to allow for at least some meaningful exchange and interchange.

So there you go. Yeah. So that's coming up in April. So you'll get a few good night's sleep after this trip between now and then. And so you're approaching 200 debates. These next two will be how many in total?

I'm sorry?

After these next two debates. Yeah, the next two, I'm at 187 right now.

So that'll put me at 189. I've been telling people that I think when Dr. White hits the 200 mark, he may retire. But I tell people Michael Jordan came out of retirement once, you know, he was watching everybody else in the game.

So we'll see.

Yeah, that's not always... That normally does not work out real well. Look what happened to Tom Brady. So, well, hey, it doesn't normally work out well. So Michael Jordan could pull it off, but I'm not sure that I could.

So yeah, we'll see. 200 would be a nice number. 225 would be.

A nice number. You know... You might do online debates. Who knows?

Yeah. Actually, that is one of the reasons we built the big studio. And I actually sort of on the last dividing line, the idea of doing an online debate with Dale Tuggy on John 1 .1. I don't think he'd ever do it, but I'd like to throw that out there.

He's published on the subject. I'm published on the subject. But I just cannot imagine him doing a biblical topic with me. He knows he can't do it. It's not his thing. So I would like to try to find someone to do something along those lines.

So yeah, I think that would be a helpful way. And I don't have to drive as much to do all that. But back to your initial question, I haven't mentioned the Jason Bretta debate, because honestly, I can't think of any highlights in it.

Oh, I can. I can think.

Of a couple. So I was there. I was there in person. So this was also a part of the Why Calvinism conference. And so I always try to look for nice things to say about people. I usually got to say the nice things before I talk about the harder things next, right?

So, you know,.

He was stepping into... Everybody's nicer than I am, so I don't bother with that kind of stuff.

So you got to think, from Jason's perspective, he's coming to the Calvinism line then to attack essentially limited atonement. And I'm over here like, good luck, sir. You know what I mean? And one of the highlights for me, you know, you give a strong opening statement.

Romans chapter 8, Hebrews chapter 7, the Trinitarian harmony right between Father, Son, Holy Spirit. It was really good. It was just, you could tell this isn't your first rodeo. You know what I mean? And then Jason Bretta, am I saying his last name right?

I've been emphasizing that bread, you know, that Bretta. As far as I know. And then, Dr. White, this probably, you'll probably remember this. He says something almost heretical in his opening statement as though the Jews are saved differently than the Gentiles about Romans 8, the golden chain of redemption.

We've misunderstood that. The emphasis is for the Gentiles. So when he said that, you could almost hear a gasp in the crowd. We were like, oh. And there's probably so many memes of you, Dr. White, just in the side over there like, what is going on?

And so here's the highlight for me. Here's the highlight for me. You come up in the rebuttal. You basically look over your shoulder and you're like, that's either heresy or you might want to soften your stance in your rebuttal time.

And of course, he softens his stance. And so Keith Foskey, what is it? He's essentially the Harper Freight Doug Wilson. He says, all right, don't mess with the debaters. You're going to have a little bit of time to stretch your legs, use the restroom.

And so, you know, I'm chilling in the back and then Dr. White comes to the front and points to me and says, come here, Jeremiah. And I'm like, me? And you're like, hurry, come here. And so it felt like you needed to check your sanity with somebody of saying, did he really say what I think he's saying up here?

And I'm like, oh, Dr. White, we're hearing it. And then do you remember I told you, I pointed to Dr. Flowers. I said, that man over there, that's his same argument. And you said, you're kidding me. And then I love telling the story there, but I said, then I tell Dr. White.

I said, Dr. White, as much as I appreciate this man's boldness over here, he is really undermining everything that we stand for and is causing utter confusion. And I said, please expose everything of what he's doing.

I felt like I was revving the engine right before your cross examination. And you said, it's not going to be.

Pretty. Well, and the cross examination, obviously the big, really the only thing I remember of the that sticks out in my mind that there is conversation about afterwards was when I'm going to the text, I'm trying to get him to deal with the text.

That's what you do during cross examination. And I say, so in Hebrews 7 .25, why is it, what's the relationship between Christ being able to save completely and his intercession before the father, his entrance into the holy place?

And he says, I don't see one. And, and so I'm like, well, then you need to tell me what Hebrews 7 .25 says. Cause that's, that's what it says. That's that's that's sort of Dr. White. It's, it's what the, it's what the Bible says.

And that's when he said, I won't do that. That would take too long.

Hey, I made a, I made a picture of that moment. Tell me if you can see this on your end. This picture shows that exegetical stare that you're known for and said.

Okay. But that, but that, that picture is from my debate with Greg Strawbridge.

Yes. But you're given, uh, Jason Breda, the exegetical stare of saying, Hey, can you please exegete Hebrew 7 .25? And he essentially like, you can't make me.

No. And, and the, the, the absurd, uh, excuse that has been offered is, well, he thought you meant do exegesis, which for Jason Breda is open up blue letter Bible and look on words. Copy, you know, what the Greek is and all the rest of this type of stuff.

And, and I'm, I'm sitting, I'm sitting here going, what's going on here. I mean, isn't this obvious? This was part of my central part of my presentation and I'm taking the positive. So if you're going to say that if you're taking the negative, you've got to deal with what I've presented and he's going, no, I'm not going to do that.

And it's like, I knew that the people that were cramming this stuff into his mind, um, Layton Flowers, um, I knew that they were going to tell him, stay away in cross-examination from the text because he'll, he'll take you apart.

And Layton tried to do that too. And it didn't work for him either. Um, well actually everybody tried to do that and it didn't work for any of them because, um, as long as the one side knows how to ask questions and knows how to, um, on the fly, ask meaningful exegetical questions, um, you're not going to be able to escape it.

You're, you're stuck with it. So yeah, that was the main thing. I'm sitting here, honestly, looking at the clock going, do I even, how do I even fill the rest of my time? Because if my opponent won't tell me what a biblical text that is central to this issue means, then why are we here?

I don't, I don't, I don't understand it. I don't get it. So yeah. And so that started a bunch of stuff online and you know, I got pretty sick after that. Like I said, I taught at GBTS and oh, that was one of the hardest things I've ever done.

I, I, people have no idea how exhausting it is for a professor to teach from nine o 'clock in the morning until four 30 at night. Um, even with a, a break for lunch in there, it is absolutely exhausting.

And to do that when you are absolutely, you know, I had just gone to urgent care. I had gotten a shot. Um, I was, uh, just feeling horrible, um, and to try to be coherent and insightful. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done, uh, really, really was.

And, and then I left from there. I went to a seminary in Jacksonville, Texas, and I was supposed to speak at 10 o 'clock in the morning, two o 'clock in the afternoon. I got through the 10 o 'clock presentation, but I was feeling lightheaded.

I would, I knew there's something really wrong and make a long story short. I had to bail and get to an ER and I packed the bag. I even packed this, this bag back here. Uh, cause I, I assumed I was going to be hospitalized and that was going to mean that the, um, flowers and, uh, Tuggy debates weren't going to happen.

I, I had my phone. I had already contacted Evan McClanahan, the pastor at First Lutheran. I said, I'm in the ER. I may be hospitalized. Um, he said, you want me to contact Tuggy and flowers? And I said, let's wait and see what happens.

Uh, well, I didn't get hospitalized. Um, I was given more, um, drugs and stuff like that. Uh, but, um, I made it to Houston and, uh, uh, somehow made it through those debates without, um, I certainly felt a whole lot better than I did when I was teaching at the seminary.

Let's put it that way. I think it would have been really obvious. Um, if I had been at that level, but I had improved, uh, at that point. And so, yeah, but it was, it's been a long trip. It's been a, it's been a challenge, you know, no toys about it.

And, um, so as far as what happened last week, um, I've never, well, there are Unitarians on Twitter. I have not seen word one from the Unitarians about the debate. Where are they rich? Rich says he's seen some stuff.

I have seen nothing. And I, is it just because it's been completely overshadowed by what I call now the provisionist playground? Um, maybe, um, but I I've, I've heard almost nothing, uh, about the debate with Dale Tuggy, which I felt was long-term, one of the most important things we did on this trip.

And so, but what has just, you know, uh, Elon Musk has had to put an entire whole section of servers online just to keep up with the provisionist, uh, onslaught, uh, since, uh, since last Thursday night.

Um, yeah, that, that one, the response, I, I, I think, I think I can say pretty fairly that I've never done a debate that had the kind of response that that debate has had. Now, part of that is just simply due to the fact that, uh, you know, a lot of the earlier debates, well, when I first started debating, there was no internet.

Uh, there was no live stream. The only way that people saw debates was literally, uh, buying VHS tapes that were shipped to them through the mail.

I've heard legends.

Yeah. Yeah. That's how it started. Um, and then, you know, uh, eight or nine years in DVDs were invented. Um, and so it was a little bit easier, but, and then YouTube shows up and, and everything starts changing as far as that goes.

But so that would obviously diminish response back then. Cause there, you couldn't have response. I mean, there was no internet, there was no, you know, I was even before AOL. So, um, it's a different context that we're in now, uh, than, than back then.

But yeah, I I've just been astonished at the, um, damage control spin, immaturity, childishness, uh, that I've been seeing online. It is beyond, uh, anything else I've, I've ever seen. Um, would it be,.

Provisionism, John 6, and the Debate Over Divine Sovereignty

Would it be coming from this crowd? Uh, provisionist playground. So, um, something else I was wanting to say is, you know, everybody on their side is talking about how you got waxed, you know, and really patent, uh, Dr. Flowers on the back and what's, what was neat.

What was neat though, is those same people, when they watched your debate with Del Tuggy, they're like, Oh, Dr. Dr. White wiped the floor with, with Tuggy. And I'm like, my goodness, you know, they, they can't see the consistency from one topic to the next.

And that's something you brought out in this debate is the type of exegesis that you're providing for John 644. You also have to be consistent when you debate a Unitarian on a different set of doctrines, but you're still going to use the same hermeneutics and the same exegesis.

I remember.

You stressing that point really well. Yeah, I did. And, um, you know, I've, I have seen people like Warren McGrew saying that Layton Flowers won, but it strikes me, um, that you would not be doing so much spin and damage control.

If you really actually believe that, um, you would not be posting AI exegesis. Man, that was the first time I'd ever seen that. I had, it, I, I knew it would happen someday, but Layton Flowers himself posted, he, he asked, uh, an AI bot, um, to deal with the Greek of John 6.

I didn't even know there were AI bots that could do that. My experience with AI bots has been when it comes.

To theology and history, they are currently really worthless. We need an AI bot with James White's.

Voice telling us the exegesis. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Um, that's not going to happen. Um, but, but I was, you don't do that if you felt like you had done that properly in the debate and he knows he didn't, he knows he doesn't have that capacity.

He is not Greek literate. And they even posted, there was even a, uh, some Septuagint scholars, some young guy had never even heard of before that they did a two hour thing. And I started listening to it.

They couldn't even represent what I had said, right. It didn't even sound like they had done any homework at all. But why, again, why be posting this stuff? Um, unless he's just really hurting over the fact, um, that the cross X went badly for him when I was asking questions, then he tried to go off into, but all gate and infant damnation and all the rest of this foolishness, uh, stuff.

And everybody knows why he was doing that. And then that he had, you know, I, I, my theory is honestly that somebody else probably from the school he teaches at had texted him. Um, and people were texting me too, but not in the way they're protecting him.

Uh, my friends were going, uh, we were, we were sort of doing the Maximus gladiator thing, uh, via text message with a group of guys that we used to, we used to lift together and I taught them all Greek and Hebrew and stuff like that.

And we were having some fun with, uh, Maximus means and, uh, and things like that. But, um, I think someone texted him and said, Hey, um, this stuff he's saying about passive, uh, he's wrong. The, the, the, those, those are active verbs.

He was talking about John six 44, the one hearing the one learning. And when, when he threw that out during his closing statement, I'm sitting, I'm just sitting here going, because they're, they're, they're substantival participles.

So it's an article sitting right there. I mean, if you know anything about Greek, and if you know anything about John six, you know, that substantival participles are the one believing the one seeing the present tense participles of talking about the ongoing action of coming to Christ and so on and so forth.

And he, he just, he can't read the text. And it just seems to me that what, what happened was he got into trouble, um, and someone tried to help him. He trusted what they said. And he threw that out there.

I don't think he would have touched that with a 10 foot pole. If he didn't trust the people that were presenting it to him. I remember, I remember Dr. Flowers brought up.

Michael Brown and I can't remember. He was starting to quote saying this. So I've experienced this in debate. Um, people say, well, other scholars disagree with you. I'm like, okay, do you mean start asking them questions?

They're not here. I would ask them the same questions. Um, and you know, our ultimate authority is the word of God. And that's where we're trying to get back to,.

You know, with soul scripture. Tuggy did that. Flowers did that. Um, and I'm, and I'm like, well, okay, I've debated Michael on this. And, um, I think those debates went fine, but he's not here. A, he's not here to cross examine him.

B, all you're saying is he disagrees with you. You're not making a specific point. You're not saying Michael Brown said this about, uh, participles because I know Michael well enough. He wouldn't do that against me.

I know Greek better than Michael does. He knows Hebrew better than I do. So we sort of, when we work together, we play off of each other's strengths. But when we debate each other, uh, I ain't going after Hebrew with him and he ain't going after Greek with me.

So, uh, we, we, we figured this stuff out so you can, you can throw that out there all you want. You're not actually accomplishing anything because there can't be any cross examination and you're not being specific.

Give me specifically what was said. When was it said? Where was it said? If you don't do that, you're again in a debate. If you're being judged by a, by debate judges, you're, you're pretty much disqualified.

Um, but you know, when I was walking over to Greek people, excuse me, um, with Rudy Jabory, Rudy, Rudy's the Assyrian guy sitting over to my right. Um, well actually he was for all, he was there for all the debates, but he was sitting over to my right in the last two debates and he and his son were the ones moving the screen to get it out of the way so that it wouldn't be sitting in front of us.

Uh, Rudy and his family, they were members at PRBC when I was the elder, an elder there back in, uh, 2010, 2011, 2012, somewhere around that, that timeframe. Anyway, they live in Houston now and, uh, uh, brought me food and, and, you know, sort of helped take care of me while I'm there.

Anyways, we're walking together over to Greek people after the debate. And I said to Rudy, I said, Rudy, if you ever hear me talking about debating Layton Flowers again, punch me in the nose. Okay. And I had already said that to Rich.

Uh, if you ever hear it, just punch me in the nose because I, I remember, um, back in 2015 after that debate, and that was, he wasn't nearly as poorly behaved in 2015 as he was in this debate. Uh, I remember saying to Rich, man, I'm never going to do that again.

This guy has no earthly idea what a debate supposed to be about or how to interact. And, you know, he's wandering off into this subject, that subject, he's, he's clearly just using Romans nine as an excuse to get into responsibility and total depravity is false and all the rest of this kind of stuff.