William Albrecht

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white And good afternoon, welcome to a special Tuesday edition of the dividing line

Didn't have it a normal time today And of course will not be able to have the dividing line on Thursday due to the obvious fact that They still do not allow you to do that And you know what?

I don't think it's all that bad thing because I it would be really annoying if I was

Seat next to somebody trying to do the dividing line of my cell phone at 38 ,000 feet like that. They're trying to sleep or something like that.

I don't think they'd appreciate that at all So or anybody else especially the people who think that you have to yell in cell phones to be heard in public

Imagine doing it you're on the cell phone. And so are they? Yeah. Oh, yeah. So there you are while you're trying to do a show

Yeah, it's a rush. Well, you know as soon as you land land you hear, you know, all these cell phones turning on and Very quickly you find out the people who don't realize that's that that they make very sensitive microphones

So you don't have to yell Yeah, go ahead and sell 4 ,700 shares of the you know, it's like oh, please stop my goodness.

Don't you understand everybody in this airplane knows exactly what you're saying anyways So we can't do the dividing line on Thursday because that's what

I'm headed heading to the United Kingdom and Next week

Lord willing We will try to do a dividing line on on Monday but I will let you know from there if that's gonna be able to work out because I Know where I'm staying and there's actually isn't internet in the rooms

You have to go down and use internet someplace else and stuff like that So unless that's changed since I was there last that's

I could change. I don't know Well, we'll figure out how we're going to do that and we will do that from from the

UK Then of course Tuesday Thursday and the following Monday are the formal debates on Thursday likewise is the radio program preaching both

Sundays So it is going to be a very very busy time then Of course the next week in Duke University the debate with Zulfikar Shah and then the battle for truth

Conference there in Durham. So if you haven't signed up for the stuff in Durham, make sure that you that you do.

So obviously a Very major day for Citizens the

United States and I think for the whole world really There are a lot of people around the whole world watching very carefully what's going on here

I am quite concerned that there are a lot of people around the whole world who have been contributing to impact

What is going on in this in this election? I think that's a very bad thing but we we must pray that that God will

Restrain the evil of men. That's what government's supposed to do by the way And that's one of the main things it's supposed to do

But we need to pray that God will restrain the evil of men that the church will continue to have freedom to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ and that is the most important thing, of course

That we need to pray for and that while we have the freedoms we have that we will be able to continue to utilize them to the honor of our

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, so major day Be good to sort of change the topic your mind is probably if you're like me you turn on the television and You know, it's it's hard to watch this stuff.

It's hard to Really Stay focused upon godly things.

Sometimes there some Emotions that arise in your heart that maybe you're not the best things

So maybe at least for the next hour you can take your mind off of those things and think about some other things

I was directed to a BBC it's really interesting. It's very very interesting two of my friends sent me

Similar articles about the same thing But if you read both articles if you didn't know they're about the same thing You'd sort of be a little bit surprised because they take such different spin on the same thing

Silly Brit one we will call him Colin Smith Sent me a link to a

BBC article and then Bo Boyd sent me a link to pretty much the same story from a completely different slant and And it was interesting to see the two perspectives as they as they come together

But the BBC article was interesting Pope urged to admit common ground

When 138 senior Muslim scholars and clergy tried to establish the common ground between Islam and Christianity last year

They said the very peace of the world hung on the outcome on Tuesday A high -ranking delegation is beginning a rare visit in Rome In an effort to persuade the

Pope to endorse what they say are the shared origins and values the world's two biggest Religions now, please note for most

Muslims They do view Christian Christianity as Rome It's it's they they really see the

Pope as the Christian version of a caliph and As the speaking for all all

Christians, and so when you say the man Who claims to be Holy Father?

Isn't anything even close? Then you know they go well, I just can't understand how that how that can be

So keep that in mind I continue on their letter a common word Cited passages from the

Quran which the scholars said showed the Christianity and Islam worship the same God and required their respective followers to show each other particular friendship the document examined fundamental doctrine and stressed what it said were the key similarities such as the belief in one

God and the requirement for believers to love their neighbors as Themselves significantly the letter acknowledged the

Prophet Muhammad Was told only the same truths that had already been revealed to Jewish and Christian prophets including

Jesus himself After a year using the Islamic principle of seeking consensus the letter was developed into a

Manifesto, and it's backed by almost 300 leaders from Sunni Shiite Sufi and other

Muslim traditions the initiative was welcomed promptly by several Christian leaders including the

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams Well I pause for just a moment to point out that with all due respect to my dear

Anglican brothers The few conservative ones that are left in the world and I can name almost all of them on one hand and and all but one of them live in Australia I know that's not true, but Most of them would actually agree with me that Rowan Williams is more pagan than he is

Christian He's considerably more comfortable around paganism than he is around Christianity And so the fact that he and others have embraced the common word is hardly overly

Shocking the Vatican has and this is the point the Vatican has however responded more cautiously this prospect of identifying common beliefs there has been renewed urgency among Muslim leaders to forge new bonds with Christians since the terrorist attacks of 11

September 2001 A lecture by Pope Benedict quoting a 14th century Byzantine Emperor's accusation

Muhammad encouraged the use of violence in Spreading Islam led to a furious reaction among Muslims and contributed the sense of a widening gap between the religions the high -ranking delegation going to Rome includes the

Grand Mufti of Bosnia and Iranian Ayatollah a Jordanian prince and British converts to Islam now

I Said when the Pope gave his talk

That I certainly hoped he would not back down from quoting historical sources because that's all he was doing

There are times quite honestly when much of Islam is appropriately designated as the religion of perpetual outrage and They just are looking for any possible reason to be offended and they want to interpret everybody else's words as if everybody else was a

Muslim and so yeah, I'd be offended if I was a Muslim and Someone claimed to be a

Muslim and they spoke in a particular way But you have to allow other people to believe what they believe well That's well at least in Western cultures.

You have to do that That's one of the big problems here But the thing

I just want to briefly focus upon is this Push Notice what it says significantly the letter acknowledged the

Prophet Muhammad was told only the same truth that had already been revealed to Jesus and Christian prophets The folks who need to understand that what's really being pushed here is is a form of of dimitude if you don't know what dimitude is that is a dimi is a person under the

Alleged protection of the Islamic State. He pays the jizya tax and he is he is

In essence under the authority of the

Islamic State and There is a form I believe of dimitude that people are trying to force upon all of that which is called

Christianity Obviously bandit the 16th is a smart fellow and he knows

Islam's theology he's probably under constraints not be able to speak about it very openly, but he knows

What Islam believes and he knows that from the Islamic perspective

Jesus and the Apostles were Muslims? and he knows from the perspective of the

Quran that All Jesus taught was to worship the one true.

God Allah He never taught anyone to worship him never accepted worship never taught that he was the

Son of God any of these things and when the Muslim Emphasizes that we all believe in one

God You need to understand that in the modern Muslim mindset

When they say one God that is absolutely connected with the concept of Tawheed Tawheed is the the

Simplicity and purity of monotheism and here's the key point in the Muslim mind monotheism and Unitarianism are

Absolutely the same thing no difference One God means one

God in being and person can't discuss it can't argue But that's just the way you just gotta accept that if you don't believe in Unitarianism Then you're not a monotheist and so the

Quran is rather clear. It's it's attack upon what it calls the three

Doesn't use the word Trinity uses the word three it once it says a third of three that Allah is a third of three

But it's attack upon what we would call the Trinity The author does not understand the

Trinity However, you understand the condo have come into existence. You got to deal with one major issue

It doesn't understand the doctrine the Trinity is and so in light of that It's constant attack upon the

Christians is that they have engaged in excess in their religion And when it criticizes the three it's always three

Gods Not three persons doesn't show any understanding of that doesn't show any understanding of the relationship the father and the son

This is an eternal thing. It's not a Creation thing nothing. There's no evidence that in the

Quran at all Instead what you have is this assertion that in essence we are we are a kafir

We are we're coffers. We're unbelievers because we engage in Idolatry and we engage in that idolatry in the context of Believing in multiple gods because for them monotheism is

Unitarianism period end of discussion and So you can't just simply go well, you know, yeah, we we all worship the same

God No, we don't I worship the triune majesty

I worship a God who is triune and has eternally been triune and To say that we worship the same

God when you yourself are denying fundamentally this nature of God is just simply beyond the pale and you just People want to just rush into that they just oh, here's here's an opportunity for peace

Well, is there any peace that's based upon something less than truth?

That is really lasting peace that that's the question that I have to ask so It is interesting to observe

This particular discussion it again, I think illustrates The problem that we're facing in our culture today

Western society in particular is facing. We have a real truth problem We don't even recognize the meaning of truth the necessity of believing truth

And when you can allow for all sorts of different kinds of truth remember the Quran identifies our belief in Jesus the

Son of God as blasphemy curses are pronounced upon those who would believe what we believe and You know, everybody says well, we just all need to emphasize we share in common what we share in common well

Has any marriage ever survived when people only dealt with each other Share common rather what our differences are.

I don't think that that's that's really how truth is advanced and So it'll be interesting to see what comes out of all of this, but there simply can be no

Meaningful dialogue that does not include a discussion of these fundamental

Issues now last week on the dividing line on Thursday we

Played a video which was actually the second part of two videos and we did so for only one and one only reason and that is because Gentleman by the name of Steve Ray has recommended to his readers on his blog

Steve Ray a sometime Catholic apologist As he is fondly called by his followers

Jerusalem Jones Who basically lives in an airplane and in airports?

over in Israel and various and other sundry places and so Steve Ray has recommended

The videos of one William Albrecht on YouTube and so I took the time

To look at some of those things in fact someone sent me an email last Thursday In YouTube now almost it's

I I don't like YouTube emails There's no way of controlling them filtering them doing anything else with them

I don't like the interface on them and all the rest that stuff and and for a long time I just had him turned off then for a while YouTube changed the interface, so I had no way of turning him back on I Unless you were on my friends list and there was only one person my friends list you couldn't send me an email anyway

So they finally figured out. Oh, hey, we need to fix that and so I actually can get

YouTube emails But I generally it's almost never almost never engage in any kind of discussion in that particular context.

It's just Just not enough time, and it's it's not very comfortable to do that anyway a guy sent me a

YouTube link and I almost never look at them, but since he said hey Here's the guy who says he's calling in the dividing line on Thursday.

I went ahead and looked at it It was one of Williams videos and so William is called in today and before we

Put him on the air. I would like to replay it will actually replay, but play

The segment of the first video which we didn't get to last last week Just to set these things up, but William posted two videos

In response to a single article that was posted by Turretin fan on the subject of Mariolatry as we would use that terminology in regards to the

Roman Catholic over exaltation of Mary and Let's listen to some of the things that William had to say

This video is to detail the usage of the poor scholarship of Alpha and Omega ministries

Which is run by James White this latest? Diatribe against Catholicism was not written by James White by another blogger

But obviously if it's appearing on a old man It reflects the approval of James White the director of Alpha and Omega ministries

Alpha and Omega ministries, excuse me and the scholarship of this article I think you read the article on the right hand side of the of this page.

The scholarship is just awful It's appalling We're gonna start off with what the blogger is doing and he said examining he's examining a

Preaching of Pope of our Pope our Holy Father Benedict the 16th Who preached about placing the world in Mary's hand and many other

Mary's hands and many other things? About a week back or so not even a week ago I believe if it goes up on October the 19th or 18th or so But anyhow this blogger decided to take it into his own interpretation to say just exactly what the

Pope is saying and to accuse Catholicism of worship worship in Mary that is Anyhow, the first thing this person points out is this he quotes what

Benedict is quoted from a website Actually, the website says this Benedict the 16th placed the world in Mary's hands during his one day visit to the shrine of Our Lady of the

Rosary in Pompeii near Naples, well The examination of this is absolutely true many prior

Christians even early fathers placed in people in Mary's hands It's definitely not simple in the sense that you ask for the intercession of a departed

Saint Who is now closer to God than you are? You ask the same pray fee help you in your guidance towards the crown of eternal life

Such a thought is absent in Protestantism Due to its false doctrines of sola scriptura and sola fide, two doctrines that were created in the 16th century

Of course, you'll hear an uproar from alemen saying oh, that's not true what about this and this and that father they believed in sola scriptura sola fide and they'll do the famous Webster shuffle and Shuffle the intention to the father his quote around to make a semen to the father supported the false doctrines of sola fide or sola scriptura

Succulent James White has laughably try to do with Athanasius over and over in debates Only to be made only to be made look foolish when it's shown that Athanasius was far from a trumpeter of sola scriptura

Is what I called the Webster shuffle from anti -catholic individual William Webster was published laugh articles many times over and attempting to twit

And attempted to twist the church while there's not a place Similar to the joke series that James produced on Ignatius that I tore to shreds

You simply wonder how much longer you can take this ministry seriously so that's the kind of Rhetoric that we have from from William He included in the second video

Stuff about my teaching of Greek for example. We must ask Amen, Alpha Omega ministries, or just ask

James what to clarify? We're in the Greek Maybe he'll James sure you're a Greek expert a I've been teaching

Greek for like what 20 years 30 years I mean, I wasn't even born since you've been teaching

Greek for so long. You're like the pro in it, right? Or maybe we can ask a James to um exegete the

Aramaic Right, I mean, maybe James has a secret Aramaic copy or the Latin or the

Spanish or I? mean, where can we exegete this passage and find out that Christ is

Castigating someone due to the radiation of Mary Etc etc, so we played that last week and so after the program

Had some correspondence with with William, and he said he would call in today, which he has done calling in From Texas, so let's go ahead and talk with William from Texas.

Hi William. How you doing James good evening. I'm pretty good But what particularly bothered me

I heard you playing my video by the way am I audible yes, you are all right Well, what's particularly pretty much bothered me?

I believe of course of the misrepresentations that you've allowed on your website I'm not even sure what the name of the poster was anymore.

I found it a but I guess particularly upsetting that I guess

That you would allow such distortions. I believe at least on Catholic doctrine to be placed up there I guess for instance um

I I don't have the article in front of me I can pull it up if you'd like but uh claiming that Mary worship is still alive and What what bothered me a little bit more?

You know was uh the complete distortion of the message of Pope Benedict. I mean to be quite honest

I don't even know the poster you allow to post read the whole thing in context But uh it it particularly bothered me and really the main reason.

I'm calling in is um I guess You pretty much told me you're going to be able to document the evidence that you have that sort of proves that Catholicism Worships Mary and I pretty much the main reason why

I'm calling it. Yeah, well William I'm sure you've listened to my debate with Patrick Madrid on the subject yes

Absolutely, I have but um you have yes, of course. That's okay. I've heard the debate many times, okay so since you've heard many times then can can you do it, but Patrick didn't do and demonstrate that Latria and Julia are not related in their root meaning in Scripture so that you can substantiate the distinction by which you can allow someone to hyper venerate

Mary to Pray to Mary to light candles to Mary to bow before statues of Mary and yet not call that Worship can can you establish from the scriptures that that is in fact not worship well you made one interesting comment of them

I apologize. I didn't mark down where it wasn't you debate against Madrid, but um I don't

I'm not gonna be quoting you verbatim here But you didn't say you said that when a soldier bows before a centurion

But that would not be in a religious context right now actually that's a very very good point you made

James I think it was a really good point because it allowed me to parallel the comment to us bowing before Representation of Mary at least

I believe the bowing that goes to Mary of course They've done in a proper form of course is simply respect.

That's it It's not a religious context can I finish? What I'm saying, please the body goes to Mary in a form of respect and that's pretty much pretty much it, and I enjoyed your uh your comment because Similar to the bowing that a soldier gives to his higher authority because I I guess

I believe the higher authority deserves that honor I think Mary Mary Similarly is closer to God than we are and it's and I've achieved that crown that it be right to one day also achieve

That's pretty much the reason why Catholics honor Mary Mary also Like the centurion was a human not a

God that's pretty much the plain and simple fact we bow to Mary We bow to her and respect her and honor her and acknowledge the beauty of God's creation

We don't honor the statue or respect the statue at all I mean the honor goes to Mary which ultimately goes to God So I don't

I didn't quite understand that analogy of yours Do I really don't I don't think it really holds up when you compare the analogy well since you just use the analogy as I pointed out

You just misused it and that is I said that in a non -religious context proskuneo could be used of Something that was not worship however proskuneo when it is used in a religious context always does mean worship

That is why when people tried to proskuneo The Apostles they said do not do that worship only

God when John tried to proskuneo the angel in the book of Revelation Likewise he said do not do that worship only

God and so You just refuted yourself because you demonstrated that you said

That this only goes to God and of course my point was that if it's in a non

Religious context proskuneo could mean that You just demonstrated you're talking about a religious context

I don't think anyone listening audience could possibly believe that what they observe with Roman Catholics bowing before Mary praying to Mary Seeking Mary's intercession is in a non

Religious context it most clearly is a religious context and therefore it is

Worship and therefore you have yet to answer my first question Which was can you demonstrate to us that the

Latria Julia distinction upon which you base your defense of? Rome's hyper veneration of Mary Does not violate the biblical command against giving worship to God.

Okay, James. Uh, I Completely don't agree with the way you completely twisted my words saying that I refuted myself

I really don't think I refuted myself because honor and respect that's pretty much all that is given to Mary We don't think

Mary was the crowd. We don't think Mary's the God now similar to the honor and respect that The centurion is given.

I don't think it's any different than the honor and respect We give to Mary and I did not say that we give

Mary any form of worship Whatsoever you you're saying that it pretty much amounts to worship What I believe is that it pretty much amounts to worship of God because any honor or any service you give to any creature of God It's directly given to God.

But um, okay. Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You just could I Don't think anyone can understand what you're saying because on one end you say

You try to say oh, it's just like a centurion just like a soldier in front of a centurion I don't know if any soldiers ever asked the centurion to save his eternal soul and to give him grace

I never once said that it's the exact same thing. I didn't say that. Okay, so it's so it's not the same thing

Okay, I parallel the fact that they're both human beings. Therefore. We're not giving either one of them Latria at all

That's pretty much what the reason that you said himself I never once said that is the exact same thing where that Mary's the exact same thing as a centurion

Okay, so the veneration that you give to Mary is actually going to God. So why isn't that worship? You still haven't where is this?

Where is this distinction? I'm telling you that any veneration or any honor given to any creature of God is ultimately honored towards God and goes towards God That's what

I'm saying. And I will get to your your Lotria Julia distinction. But uh, I wanted to ask you um

You do you uh, well, I want to ask you this There's a church claim of the Julia that is given to Mary is exactly the same as a

Latria You think that they claim that at all in any document actually someone actually made that exact errant?

question in the audience questions in the Madrid debate and I Demonstrated at that time.

I did the same the same error the Argument has the argument has been clearly stated that it is the distinction between Latria and Julia that is unbiblical the

Hebrew term is Avad if you could demonstrate to us that avad does not mean

Worship and service both Lotria and Julia, then you'll establish your case if you cannot Then you have to in essence reject the biblical usage and establish an extra canonical usage to defend your position

You believe that every single time that Julia is used it's in the form of worship like everything Of course not no one no one could possibly could no one could possibly

I'm gonna finish I'm gonna excuse me I'm gonna I let you finish your point and I'm gonna finish.

I'm gonna finish my point Because you're you're trying to you know No one could possibly think that because Julia is used in Religious worship of God that that means every time it's used in that same way just as Proskune oh as I mentioned earlier

Can be used in a secular non -religious context in the same way that it can be used in a religious context

But do you oh is used of worship when the Apostle Paul? Speaks to the

Galatians and says that they serve those which are by nature not gods No one can possibly argue that that was not in fact religious worship

Would agree hundred percent of James you know you've cut me off before to start on understand why you're being upset because I was

Attempting to cut you off. You cut me off a little while ago And I was William William just just just move along to you just you're you're complaining about things that really aren't relevant to the conversation

Yeah, they're not relevant all right James. I so you just admitted that Julia is not always used in the sense of worship, right?

I've never say stated. Otherwise. That's that's not an admission. That's a simple fact the point of saying that there's no biblical distinction between lottery and Julia again

Because of the fact that in the Bible if you allow God's divine revelation to define your categories for you in the religious context both worship and service come from one root concept the idea of distinguishing them so that you can in a religious context bow down in front of a

Person pray to a person light candles to a person, but that's not

Worship is not a biblical concept you cannot find anywhere in the

Bible where? Christians engage in that kind of behavior, and it's called outside of a religious context anything other than worship can you

Where Can you name? I mean, I'm just curious you're you're um you're a lot better in the

Greek than I am in fact You'd probably humiliate me. Can you name just one Greek lexicon that tells us that there's no distinction between lottery

Julia? What an amazing question give me one Greek lexicon that says what you're affirming

You're the one making the claim here that Latria and Julia are going to be distinguished in these ways you show me

You're the one that said that you're the one that refuted my video by saying that there was there was no biblical distinction

But you're watching Julia That's right And the first question and the one Greek lexicon that tells us and the first question

I asked you when you called in was to Substantiate the distinction and you said you'd get to it later now you want to assume it

I say to you that Bauer Donker aren't in Gingrich does not tell us that those

Particular two terms are not used in the Old Testament context translating the one

Hebrew term of odd so It's it's irrelevant they're not concerned about such things both will define the semantic range of those particular terms and They will recognize that Latruo is normally used within the cultic practice of the temple do you all can be used in both that and a secular usage?

But they will also recognize that do you owe is used of worship just like Latruo is so again, we come back to the basic fundamental question that has yet to be answered and that is you in your videos

I Please I asked the question to you first you and your videos in a very

Condescending tone said well this this this scholarship is ridiculous and for you Disagreeing with you means your scholarship is bad, but that's and that's that you've done for from the first time

I saw when your first videos, but I told you why I said that though. I wasn't referring to you yourself I told you why

I thought that it was ridiculous Actually, I just played you saying that something about Ignatius remember

And then we play and then we play with what what you say about it It's just all you're doing is engaging in mockery and calling that scholarship.

That's not scholarship, but the point here is very simple Scholarship Okay, the point very very simply is this you've been asked a question

Turretin Turretin Turretin fans article name. Okay is based upon the

Understanding that what you have going on when you bow before Mary when you worship

Mary when you give when you when you do All these things that's worship. We do not believe that there is a biblical distinction worship

So document that demonstrate that you know, how do you agree you admitted that the words are not equal

Are you are you saying that there you said at first that there was no biblical distinction and all of a sudden asking you admit

That Julia is not always used in the sense of worship Okay Actually right now

I can just stop and sit back and allow the listeners I can allow the listeners to judge this for themselves because it's just so obvious that Cannot hear

What is being said to him? All right Let me let me backtrack you said that there is no biblical distinction

We choose Latvia and Julia and I believe that the fact of the matter is that there are two distinct words used differently at times

I Agreed with you that Julia is and should always be rendered to God But it's also shown as being rendered elsewhere in references that are not directed towards God Latvia has never shown us proper towards anyone other than God that is clear

That was my point and I said Julia was different Of course, it should be rendered to God in service and we're to obey and serve

God. That is my whole point Are we to obey and serve Mary? In what sense do you mean the sense of God?

Oh, so see now we're now we're now you're dead You're demonstrating that our usage has been correct all along specifically in the religious context in the way

You just said it. It really doesn't make sense. Are we to obey and serve Mary? We don't communicate with Mary Don't communicate with Mary This is this is called talking back and forth you know when you throw something out and says we do not communicate with Mary Okay, William When you throw out

I've got you on hold right now, I'll put you back on when you can behave Okay, this is real simple if we've had

John for quite some time now You just threw out to the audience the statement we don't communicate with Mary Now I can't tell you how many

Hundreds of times I have listened to Roman Catholics talking about their communication with Mary That's what their prayers are their ability to communicate to her, etc, etc

Okay, so this is if we could do this as a conversation This would help a lot

But you want to throw stuff out and then run from it And then I have to try to go back and pick up all these threads, and it doesn't work so follow

The rules here, and you'll be able to get lots more time But if you throw something out

And I challenge it don't just immediately start complaining when you've got a webcast that people listen to fine

I'll follow your rules, but right now you're on mine. All right. That's the way it goes now

If you'd like to pick up with where you were please do so Am I on you are okay

James? I wasn't trying to be rude in any sense at all I have yelled I haven't lasted your comments or been rude in any way

I don't think if I get out of line before you meet me Can you at least tell me to calm down or something?

I was trying to finish my sentence I really wasn't done before you stopped me and started if you would stop

Arguing about whether you're being treated fairly and just make your case you'd be doing a lot better You're right unless I get muted again.

My point was that we don't communicate with Mary It'd be well as I was trying to say in the sense of we sit down and we speak to Mary That is why

I said it seems a little bit odd to say do we obey Mary That is the only thing that I was trying to say

That's all that I was trying to say and I actually had a question that I wanted to ask you Do you think I can ask you a question?

I? guess that the answer to my first question is is because Latruo and do you owe are different words?

Then they cannot be derived from a vaad and that's how they weren't derived from a lot

Okay, so if they are and that is the Hebrew term That's worship.

I will but I never I never denied that I said that there are some locations where it isn't though Okay, and in so in can you show me a single place in a religious context where it doesn't mean worship?

Well, I can show you another place but uh, you're simply gonna say that it doesn't matter that it where Let me go ahead and look it up.

You're not You're gonna say oh, well, that's not a religious concept. Why don't we let our listeners decide whether it works that way or not?

Okay, I believe You see I'm trying to open up my big

Bible in one moment. Hey, I Believe it's acts 7 -7.

I'm not sure So you would uh, you would disagree on the interpretation in acts 7 -7

You would say if that is not in a religious context, right acts 7 -7 But I will judge the nation that they serve said

God and after that they shall come out and worship me in this place Is that what you're looking at?

I'm looking at the Greek terms the way and what tree what you used to of course differently in the Greek. Uh -huh

Are you saying that this reference is to worship? Well, first of all, it's a quotation from the

Old Testament Okay, and it's talking about a nation that they serve and in fact if you would look back a little bit

It's talking about Egypt. And so it's talking about their enslavement at that point Going back to verse 5 yet He gave him no inheritance in it not even a foot's length

But promised to give to him as a possession and his offspring after him Though he had no child and God spoke this effect that his offspring would be sojourners in the land belonging to others

Who would enslave them and afflict them for hundred years and the term for enslaved there is from Doulas do you owe to serve and so it's speaking there obviously of the nation which they were

Enslaved and after that they should come out and worship me. So no, this is not an indication

Unless you're going to say that the Israelites were worshiping the Egyptians No, this is not a religious context at all

They did the context provided by acts itself is that they were enslaved to the

Egyptians So your contention is that each and every single kind of Julia is not rendered to God that it's pretty much not in a religious context

My assertion is that in a religious context there is no distinction in the

Bible Between saying well if a someone was caught in a tent bowing down before a statue with a light with the candles burning and They were brought before Moses if they had said

Oh Moses, you don't understand I wasn't giving Latria. I was giving

Julia that that Excuse would not have held up because it is being read

Into the text from an external source. So that's still a relevant argument is because they worship those idols.

It's very very different We don't worship Mary in any sense whatsoever Well, you didn't just catch you didn't just see it

You didn't even hear what I just said to you and that's been my problem with y 'all along William is that is that no matter what someone says to you just Repeat what you just said as if that's somehow refutation

James. I heard you clearly I also heard you in your debate against Patrick Madrid and I heard the the comment he used

Dealing with bowing to statues thing is it's very different. It's completely different. Why why? Why tell me tell me why because because as as a non

Roman Catholic Given towards Mary that you're reasoning in circles your reasoning in circles

Do you do everybody listening to this William? Hears you right now reasoning in service it and just just I haven't heard you reason at all

So everybody hears you as well not being well, I think that speaks for itself Would would the man brought before Moses?

Would it have been a valid distinction for him to have said I'm not giving this statue

Latria You want I'm only giving it. Oh, yeah, it wouldn't have been valid because he wasn't he was giving left

But he asked the statue that is the reason why it wouldn't have been valid in it And I simply say to you you have not established that Establish that you can't you just assume it right now.

They didn't worship the statues that you're creating a false argument You're telling me right now. They didn't worship statues

I am telling you that when they bow down before the statue is Just like when you bow down before Mary that you're engaging in Idolatry exactly

But you're wrong you're wrong We don't worship Mary and I'm still waiting for you to See now here's there is no distinction now

Here is and I here is now here is where we see your form of apologetics

And that is you take the modern Roman Catholic definition You read it back into whatever you find in the past and if anyone disagrees, they're just wrong

Well simply saying you're wrong is not an argument That's the one question

I mean dealing with the past if you're talking about the past right now Please please go ahead. Are you aware of any because I mean

I've heard you mentioned it before I'm just gonna ask you are you aware of any church father? That was proficient in Greek or Latin or both that wrote devotionals to Mary and they claimed it was a form of worship

Wrote devotionals to Mary and claimed. It was a form of worship Well, excuse me, but why on earth do you people keep asking us to come up with people who said?

We are worshiping that has never been our point Our point is on the basis of the biblical definition of worship

That is what is going on My point is that their church fathers had great amount of devotional towards Mary and never there were some who did there were some who?

Did not there was the ones that did not mention you're right They did not and some that simply had nothing to say at all

I would agree But I'm speaking about the church fathers that particularly were proficient in Greek and Latin or at least in one of them that wrote

Towards Mary and none of them ever claimed that it was a form of worship This is the ancient church and here we have you claiming that this is worship again a couple of years later and again and again the definition of worship

Pre -existed every church father because it was written in what is called

Scripture you're right James You've used these same fathers many times over and over to trumpet your other Protestant beliefs and now that I use the early church fathers to Demonstrate inconsistencies in Roman Catholic usage.

I do not make them an authority Yeah, I would agree. You've never made him an authority but have particularly like the way you've used

Athanasius many times over get Athanasius even called Mary the mother of God and Excuse me.

Have you read my book on Mary? I did not even know you had a book on. Yeah well, you'll notice that Protestant scholarship recognizes that they ought to cost was a term that initially was used as a title of Christ it had to do with the deity of Christ that he truly was

God So why in the world would you even begin to raise the issue? Athanasius utilize the term in an orthodox sense

I didn't need to have to read your book to know that I already knew that fact the fact of the matter is I'm asking Then why even throw it out

William because I'm pointing out that the early church had honor and respect for Mary and I don't understand

Okay, here we go here good illustration good illustration here to use the term

Theotokos does not mean for Athanasius what it means for you today You keep reading those things back into the early fathers as if they did

Okay, did Athanasius believe in the bodily assumption of Mary? Yes or no? He did it doesn't really matter whether we do or not

There's a lot of doctrines that we don't have documented evidence the fathers didn't believe in it doesn't really matter Okay, can you name a single person at the

Council of Nicaea that believed what you believe about Mary a single bishop? At what council next year first night here first first first first.

I'm sure I'll name Athanasius Do you believe in the you so Athanasius so Athanasius believe in the bodily assumption and things like that?

I'm actually the body assumption wasn't even a defiant dogma at the time But if I can finish what I was saying, he did believe in the

Eucharist. He did believe in Many implicit doctrines of Mary he believed in a lot of things that yeah, you never believe in Sola Scriptura That's one thing for sure and you've attempted to prove it

He he did believe in the past but it's irrelevant whether he believed or whether he wrote about the assumption of Mary or not

That's an irrelevant argument. It's irrelevant that you can read in. Well, it's it's

I don't know William Maybe I like documentation You're right, then why do you believe in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide?

There's no documentation the early church of those doctrine Well, I have this thing. I have this thing called the

New Testament and I have something called the Old Testament And then I also have the mechanisms by which these individuals in the early church actually argued such as Athanasius for the deity of Christ and he didn't do so by appealing to the

Bishop of Rome in fact, even though the Bishop of Rome Even though the Bishop of Rome even though the

Bishop of Rome signed the Arianized Sirmium Creed And it was

Athanasius alone that stood for the actual Nicene Faith he's kicked out of his church five times

Oh my goodness. Yes, sir Well, you know whenever I give you documentation you don't seem to be concerned about so I would direct people to Philip Schaaf's discussion to JND Kelly's discussion

They say that Liberia signed all those documents this no not a shadow. What what what what what all these documents

I said one Okay. Well, you know what? No, no, no William. I don't know what you mean because when you say one thing you change what you're saying later on Yes, yes you do

Let's let's let's hold on a second. Thank you put you on hold there. Let's let's let's listen to part of Williams scholarly

Beating down of me on Ignatius cover all five of the videos and the relevant parts and we need to the gyms What is done on Ignatius a minute and 28 seconds into the video?

We hear Jim's white making that make the accusation that Roman Catholics cannot handle the early church fathers in an accurate fashion

Then we hear that only really Protestants can handle the early church fathers. I Respect you to Mary Did not believe in the premillennial rapture

Believing the plural presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the early church to give us a Bible not the Protestant Bible lack of seven books

But the complete Bible it's that early church that the Protestants can handle right? Now they're there those those

I believe are are your your your words are they not? All right. Yes.

Yes, you are. They are you are they your words? Okay, and I Would assume so and let's have a split personality, which

I don't okay good good So you believe the point in jumping into Ignatius when they're trying to speak about Mary at the moment because you're because you're sir

Your assertion, of course was that the early you have already made almost every single one of these very same statements

In what we've been discussing here and it illustrates what I've said many many times you just absolutely

Insist that the early church believed exactly what you believe and when you are challenged

Roman Catholic specifically and when you are challenged

And when you are challenged and when you are challenged to document

That you just simply say it's irrelevant No, I don't need to show you were

Athanasius believed in these things because well they were Catholics and they Believed in these things and Athanasius believed in the

Eucharist the same way I do even though he never used the language that I do and even though he didn't have a wrist

Italian See, he didn't need to use the language that I use So we just read the later developments back into Athanasius even though he doesn't use the language

See, there's no way to refute an argument like that because it's not an argument There's a circular argument kind of like your argument on there being no biblical distinction between Latter -day and Julia It's very easy to refute that it's very easy to refute it

All you got to do is show me evidence that Athanasius didn't believe in the real corporal presence of Christ And guess what?

I'll shut my mouth and I'll admit you know what he didn't there's very easy It's very easy to so so if if the con so if these people are not even talking about these subjects then

We just assume we just assume that they they all believe these things and so when

Athanasius When he argues the deity of Christ and he uses what does he use? He even identifies apostolic tradition as being what as being the scriptures and he never makes the kind of appeal to External tradition outside the canon of scripture to demonstrate his points yet.

You say well It's just ridiculous to believe that he believes these things. Of course he was using scripture He was arguing with the

Aryans, so of course he's going to use he doesn't stick to the scriptures alone James That's that he doesn't stick to the scriptures alone for what?

For for every single one of his arguments James. Are you a star for what about the deity of Christ? I'm not referring to the deity of Christ.

I'm afraid Okay, if I'm allowed to finish my sentence would be great. I'm simply gonna ask you do you think that Athanasius?

Believed in solar scripture in the sense that you believe that's all I'm asking you suppose that yes, I believe he practiced

You really yes So he has that Bible in his hand with all the books that you've gotten he practiced the full scripture actually interestingly enough

You in this clip. I just played said that all these early church People who gave the Bible had your canon

Athanasius didn't I never once okay? Well, let's let's go ahead and play this again. Yeah, let's let who gave us the

Bible. Let's see what you said Then we hear that only really

Protestants can handle the early church fathers I Couldn't help but laugh a little here the early church which believed in the privacy of the

Pope prayer to the Saints gave respect you to Mary Did not believe in the premillennial rapture.

Oh by the way. Do you think I believe in the premillennial rapture James? But I've heard a lot of your debates

James at one time It did seem as if you did believe in the premillennial rapture, and if you want I can document that mp3 and I'll play it

Okay Eucharist and the early church to give us a Bible not the

Protestant Bible lacking seven books, but the complete Bible, okay? What does that mean not the Protestant Bible lacking seven books, but the complete

Bible? What does that mean that means that there's seven books that are lacking for the nation's give that to you? But affirmations give me no affirmations wasn't the author of Canon that was

God okay? I agree completely so Athanasius doesn't fit into your definition of the early church here does he

Affirmations fits perfectly and then I'm glad that you brought him up because he uses a lot of the deuterocanonical books in In a way that their sacred scripture even calls them sacred scripture many times and in fact when he lits writes out the kind of scripture

He would disagree He's a letter. I just agree with your interpretation the 39th festival show me show me where it were

Okay I can finish. I'm not going to say oh, you know what

I believe this but not give you any documentation I'm gonna finish. I'm not gonna Leave you high and dry. I'm going to tell you

I I do believe that I can give you that documented proof if you want I'll even make a video series not because I've written it all out on a tenacious

I don't I will admit I don't think he used the term Canon in the same sense that any of us use the term

Canon But I do not believe and I can prove he did not use the Protestant sense of the Canon He doesn't include every single

Protestant book or every single proto canonical book even includes one book that you wouldn't consider proto canonical

So which is what? I can pull that up if you like right now, and I'll look at it No, that's that's all right.

I've already I've listened. I've listened to what Steve Ray and Gary matured at Santa We've already we've already responded

We we put the entire text of the 39th festival letter in the videos put put it up there and I don't see a reason to go

I don't think that they're going to use some of the arguments that I've come up with so if you'd like I can present that To you, and you can put it on your show and make fun of me if you like you think it's ridiculous

I just don't agree with your interpretation of Athanasius, and it's 39th festival letter and in fact you would not agree with how

Roman Catholic scholarship has Interpreted him or drama or some different Catholic apologists out there that view him differently

And I guess it depends which one are you speaking about if you can tell me an apologist? I'll tell you if I agree with him or not I see so when you make the claim in your video about Ignatius And you consider this to be some sort of a reputation that they gave us the whole

Bible You're not including in the early church then Milito Sardis origin

Jerome Athanasius Gregory the Great Cardinal Jimenez Well no he would not be

I'm talking about the entire the tire tradition going up through that All those folks just they just admit.

I would admit that a lot of them Disputed over the books. I mean they disputed over proto -canonical books that you consider part of the candidate to this day, too, okay?

The Milito Sardis of course had a different canon. I would admit that okay good good

So so why I may not agree in your misrepresentation of origin. I would agree Misrepresentation of origin because you just saw right now you hinted that origin helped

I guess are you hinting that he held the Protestant when we disagree on what someone says?

For you that means the other person is has using laughable scholarship, and it's automatically misrepresenting something

Recognition that and then when someone paraphrases you just simply say no I never once said that and then they have to replay your words again

But you can't always do that, and it's always just a twisting of your words But the point is that origin recognized that there is a

Hebrew canon and a canon outside of that So he recognizes that and does not see that there is some sort of Roman Papal apostolic authority that establishes all these things

Scripture so I really don't see your point in using origin if he doesn't support your position the point is that origin recognized that the

Hebrews had a shorter can and it was And it was the Hebrews to whom the oracles of God had been committed according

Romans chapter 3 Which is apostolic so hey William. Thank you Oh, I'm sorry.

I was trying to I didn't mean to do that. We only have 30 seconds left, but I was trying to say

Goodbye to him and to say thank you for calling and unfortunately my touchpad hit drop instead of hold so I Apologize for that, but we only have about 30 seconds left anyways well there you

I think have a clear indication very very clear indication of Why it is that I have been utterly amazed when

Steve Ray has made reference to these videos because no matter What you say? You're you there's just absolutely no reasoning

In in that kind of a mindset you just it's it's circular. It's it's There's no way around it, so That's uh, that's that's how it works, so I appreciate

William calling in And I appreciate the conversation and hey it got your mind off politics for an hour, you know more ways than one

Just just a secular politics, so anyways. Thanks to William for calling in and like I said we will not have

Dividing line on Thursday we will try to find some way of fitting something in next week

But it will have to be from London, so it'll it's just gonna be a challenge We're gonna do our best to do that. We will see you then

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