Confronting the Culture of Death

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Pastor Jeff Durbin, of Apologia Church, took over the Dividing Line. Jeff spends time discussing the history of the Pro-life movement and his own personal history of getting involved in ministry at the abortion-mills. He plays through a clip of an encounter he had while ministering outside of a clinic in Tempe and he talks a bit about how he believes we should move forward as local churches in this area. You can get more information at http://endabortionnow.com .

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Howdy folks! I am not James White. Look, we're gonna do this together today.
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I am in Dr. James White's, um, is this, what do you call this? Is this a man cave?
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Man radio cave? All right, it's just really, it's really an amazing place. It is, and I am doing everything that I possibly can to make this as comfortable an experience that, um, that we can.
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So I got rich right now on backup, and I brought, um, a wonderful tie, a bow tie actually, and I just want to say, because Dr.
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White, I know that you're probably being very critical right now. You're thinking, okay, all right, well that's, that's good, but is it a real bow tie, or is it a clip -on?
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And I want to make sure that you all understand that this is not a clip -on. This is an actual, uh, bow tie, um, and no,
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I did not tie it myself. Uh, so I want to thank Daniel Schultz from Apology Church for going all, uh, the way across town and coming to meet me at the office today just to tie it on for me.
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So how's it look? It's good? Yeah, that's what Google Maps threw me off, and I, it's a crazy thing.
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I know my way here, and I, yeah, it's, it's not, see, this is why bow ties don't really work well, because look at it.
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It's like crooked. Look at that. Okay, but, okay, hold on, I'm gonna do it this way there. Okay, that's a little better. Dr. White was worried that if I do wear a bow tie that my beard would cover it up, and, and, uh, clearly not.
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I mean, I think it, it works. Um, so good. So I am right now in a very special place.
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We're going to do a show today. We're going to talk about, I thought, like, what do you do? What do you do coming on to Dr.
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White's show and hijacking it? What do you do? Do you do stuff on the manuscript tradition? Because, you know, uh, not, not in any way in comparison to Dr.
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White. Couldn't do that. What do you do? Do you do stuff on, um, I don't know, just kind of apologetics and engage different people?
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That'd be good. That'd be helpful. What do you do? So I thought, let's do something that might be helpful. Let's maybe talk about abortion.
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That's a big thing right now for us in our ministry. And how do we engage those arguments? Maybe play some clips for you guys and talk about, um, hopefully what is a, what is a good and God honoring way forward to bring the gospel into this area.
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Uh, but you know, while I'm in here, I just want to, I want to do what I can to make this a special experience for you. So what do
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I see right now? What do I see right now? I see, this is amazing. There are actually four copies of the kingdom of the cults.
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This is what you all really want to know. Rich, just so you know, it's what everyone really wants to know. They like, you know, want to listen to Dr. White, but they want to know what this is all about.
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So you have the kingdom of the cults right here. And this is the, this is the, the updated version with Ravi who did the general editing.
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So it's good. Need the update. Very good. But Dr. White doesn't just have, he doesn't just have the kingdom of the cults, you know, one in his library.
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He actually has, let me see here. I don't want to mess too much. Is he like really like particular about how these are perfect? Okay. So he has four copies of the kingdom of the cults.
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He doesn't need one. He needs four, four of them. So he even has, look at that one, that one right there.
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That's the original, isn't it? That's the OG right there. Kingdom of the cults. Look at that. I think I'd imagine that's the first one.
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So if you don't have kingdom of the cults, you need to have that in your library. I know that Dr. White's been impacted by Walter Martin like I have, and it's not enough to have just one copy.
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He needs, he needs all four. What else is happening in here right now? All these books. Oh yeah. Sources de la
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Transmission Manuscritae du Texte Coranique. That's, he only has like two of those.
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I got like seven. So this is, this is awesome. Martin Luther. You got, you got the
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Lava Lamp, of course, right there. And Theology Matters, the license plates. What? And of course, yes,
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I can't. No, no, wait a minute. If you look to your left, my left, to your left a little bit further.
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Okay. Here you see that three ring binder there. This, that right there.
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Yes. That is what's known as the missionary masher. The missionary master. Masher.
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Okay. Okay. And that goes back to the original, the beginnings of Alpha and Omega Ministries.
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Oh. The original documentation on Mormonism, that everything under the sun that you can think of is in that three ring binder right there.
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Wow. So this is, there's a piece of history right here. Look at this. And it's, it's not even covered in dust or anything, but this is, whoa, whoa.
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Look at this. See, this is what I get to do in here right now. Wow. This is some serious business right here.
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Did you put, you put all this together? You probably organized this. I wasn't even around when that was put together. You weren't even around? Really? James and Mike Beliveau put that together.
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Wow. This is fantastic. This needs to become its own little book you guys distribute right there.
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So I'll give you a little bit of history before we get started today. Let's make this an enjoyable experience. So I heard the gospel later on in life.
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So I was around 17 years old and I was in a Christian bookstore in Washington, DC.
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I used to go there every day after school. I would just sit on the floor. The name of the bookstore was Heaven Christian Bookstore.
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That was the name of the store. And I used to just, just take a pile of books, put them in front of me and just read.
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And the name of the, the owner was Tony. He loved me. He used to always give me free stuff. And, and so I remember that the
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Bible we had in my house was the King James version. And it always collected like an inch of dust wherever we went in the world.
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My dad was military. So we traveled everywhere. It always had its one place on top of the stereo. And that was, that was the
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Bible. And so I remember when I came to Christ, heard the gospel, I was reading the
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King James version and I was really struggling through it. So I remember that I went to this bookstore and I'm, I'm, I'm trying to find a good
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Bible that I can actually read. And, you know, just, it'd be easier for me to read because the English was so old and a fight ensued at Heaven Christian bookstore.
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It was totally sanctified. It was amazing. So like these two guys are, are vying for me.
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I had a KJV onlyist and another guy. And so this guy's like, no, these aren't the word of God. This is the only word of God.
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These are all corruptions of scripture and all pagan. And I'm, I'm new at this. I don't know anything.
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And so I'm totally confused. Well, the KJV only a sort of storms out. And then the one guy that was left was like, look, you know, you can choose these
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Bibles are great translations, but here you need to read this book. And so what he handed me, one of the first Christian books
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I ever had was the King James only controversy by Dr. James White. So the truth is the first book
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I read as a professing Christian was the KJV only controversy by Dr. James White. So I move out to Arizona.
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I'm very young. I'm a 17 years old, hadn't even graduated high school yet, move out to Arizona. And I see this billboard on the side of the road for the
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Mesa Easter pageant at the Mormon temple. And at the time I had been talking to lots of Mormons and I did not know there were so many
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Mormons in Arizona. And so I decided to go, I didn't know anybody. I just took a backpack, filled it with Bible and other materials and resources that I had.
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And so I got to the Mormon temple in Mesa, Arizona. And when I got out there, I was just in awe of the thousands and thousands and thousands of people that were out there.
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And so the interesting thing about this time, and I know Rich remembers this, is that like in 1996, Rich, people would actually engage you and surround you.
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You had Mormon missionaries that would surround you. They weren't afraid to talk to you. You had return missionaries.
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I mean, so I see these little huddles like down the sidewalk of Mormons surrounding
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Christians. And I do remember you, Rich, you were there that night that I was there. And so you and I talked my very first night at the
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Easter pageant. So I see this guy. He looked like what we would call today a hipster.
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He, this is scholarly James White. This is the old, like he still had hair and the glasses, you know, he looked like, if you took him from then now, people would say, oh, look, a hipster.
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Wonderful. Get him some espresso. And so I see this guy just engaging
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Mormons and he's just answering questions. And they're all engaging him. He's just going one and then the next one and then the next one.
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And I was just like, wow, this is amazing. Praise God. What an experience. And so I was so taken in by the whole thing that you were standing, you were standing there,
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Rich. And so I said, hey, who was that guy? Who was that guy? And you were like, oh, that's
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James White. And I was like, James White, James White, not James White, the
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King James only controversy. And you were like, yeah, that's Dr. White. And so that was my first time actually getting to meet you and Dr.
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White at the Mormon temple in Mesa, Arizona. It was an amazing experience. And so since that time, many, many years,
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I have personally been impacted by Rich and Dr. White and this ministry. I mean, this ministry truly is shaping the world in many ways.
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I mean, this ministry has been the catalyst to start just a number of ministries, churches, church plants, men going into seminary.
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Apology at church exists because of your labor and Dr. White's labor. That's the truth. And so it's an amazing experience and a humbling experience to be in this room right now.
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So what do you want to do today, guys? What do you want to do, Rich? You know what I do Thursday, Rich?
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When I come back on Thursday, I'm going to bring a trinket that I leave in here and we'll see how long it actually remains.
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We'll see how long it's... No, I know what I'll do. This is what I'll do. I'm going to get a big picture of Dr.
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White and me, and I'm going to sit right back there and see if it moves.
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All right, so let's get to it, guys. Let's talk about ministry in the area of abortion.
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And again, thinking about like what would be a beneficial topic to talk about on The Dividing Line with all the really great years of resources that Dr.
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White has provided all of us on this show, what would be a good topic to talk about? And it's at the front of my mind right now, but I think it does represent something very, very serious for us to engage as Christians.
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Because essentially, when we go to the abortion apology at church, what we're engaging with out there is very rarely, honestly, the
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Planned Parenthood supporter who is a professing Christian. Does it exist? Yeah, it exists. I mean, every once in a while you run into a person who professes to be a
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Christian who's a Planned Parenthood supporter out there actually hostile, you know, warring against us, trying to stop what we're doing.
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That happens. You run into the typical person who says that they're Roman Catholic and they're a
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Planned Parenthood supporter. But what we most commonly run into outside the abortion mill is people who are humanists, who are secularists, who are coming at this from an atheistic or agnostic perspective.
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And wouldn't that be the case if our educational institutions in the United States of America right now, public school, elementary, middle school, high school, or advanced education, we're talking about undergraduate degrees and graduate degrees, wouldn't it be the case if what is being propagated is essentially an atheistic or agnostic and unbelieving worldview?
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I mean, the truth is, is that this last generation has been raised in a worldview that is entirely opposed to Christ from soup to nuts.
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So our view of origins, our epistemology, you name it, it is rooted in a hostile, unbelieving worldview.
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And so what we do engage with outside of the abortion mill is the most commonly the unbeliever that is the hostile, atheist, agnostic.
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And interestingly, I don't know, Rich, if you've seen some of the stuff we've been putting out lately, we have at Planned Parenthood in Tempe, I think,
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Rich, we have one of the most hostile locations in the United States.
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I mean, I have friends who are doing this across the country and I see difficult moments all the way down. But I think our particular location that God has given to us is one of the most hostile imaginable.
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And the interesting thing about this location in Tempe is the people we're engaging with are professed anti -theists,
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I mean, just militant. But the interesting thing is they're also, many of them, members of the
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Satanic Temple of Arizona. So they're the kind of Satanists that are the humanist
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Satanists, they worship the ideal of Satan. And they actually say that they worship
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Satan through activism. And so that's part of their confession of faith is that we worship
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Satan through activism. And what is the activism? Well, activism would be on issues like abortion,
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LGBT issues, those sorts of things, fighting against the patriarchy, all that. And so I think what would beneficial for us is to engage that kind of unbelief, the atheist, the agnostic, the secularist, the humanist, because abortion really for many of them is their sacred right.
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It truly is. I mean, it is very religious in a sense for them, it's their sacred right.
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And so that's what I thought would be good for us to do. So let's spring into this just to give you a taste of what it's like.
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Let's play a clip from a discussion that I had about,
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I guess this was about, let me see here, this is about two weeks ago or so. We were outside of the
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Planned Parenthood in Tempe, Arizona. And again, this location is hostile and it's becoming increasingly hostile every week that we go.
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There are Planned Parenthood supporters that are dedicated to this location to stop us from what we're doing.
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And I just want to say for anybody who's new to this discussion, you're just maybe seeing me for the first time in this wonderful tie.
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We go out to the abortion mill to preach the gospel, to tell the truth about what's happening out there and to offer help, love and support to the women and fathers that go in.
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As a result of us going out for about the past three years, over 70 babies have been saved just from Apologia Church's work locally.
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That's just what we can confirm. That's just what we know about. We know that it's many more than that. And as a result of people just watching us do what we do and hearing it, we've had now over 130 ministries pop up across the
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United States to do the same work. I want you to talk about how that works because some of this comes back to, way back to the rationale of Operation Rescue and the idea of what happens when you interrupt that appointment and how that affects the actual abortion pattern.
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Yes. So it's interesting. Operation Rescue, all those guys in the 80s that were doing this work where they were actually going to the abortion mills and they were blocking them.
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They were blocking them with their bodies. They were stopping people from going in. I mean, there were thousands of arrests when that took place across the
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United States. It really was a courageous a courageous effort across the
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United States from Christians. I mean, everywhere. I mean, I know John Piper was arrested a number of times actually engaging in that exact work.
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He said he was in a restaurant. I think he said he was in a pizza hut in the 80s and he saw the news was on and he saw
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Christians, pastors across the country who are being arrested. And he says in his account of what happened, he looked over at Noel, his wife, and he said, this is right.
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This is right. This is what happens. And Dr. White, did he do the same thing?
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I know. Yeah. We're going to talk just a bit about that today. Yes. Yes.
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Oh, wow. That was the abortion mill he went to. Okay. I believe so.
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I think Dr. White said that. So in the 80s, you had this movement of Christians across the country that were trying to make a courageous stand and symbol that we're not going to stand for the murder of these preborn children any longer.
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And they were laying in front of the doors. They were chaining themselves to one to one another and they were getting arrested. And it was actually an amazing symbol across the country of Christians testifying to what was taking place in the abortion mills and all that.
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Now, the interesting thing is that as a result of that movement, not only did it, did it awaken the nation in many ways, but it's in the, in the long run began to actually really put a lot of pressure and weight on abortion mill ministry because you even have laws that came out of that where there's two year sentences for that sort of thing.
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There's, there has to be access to abortion mills. I mean, at this point now it becomes very, very risky and it'll take you off the mission field possibly for two years.
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You can go to jail for two years for the work. So it was an amazing moment. It was courageous. It was beautiful in many ways.
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But at this point where we're at today, our conviction is, is that it takes missionaries off the field. At this point, you'll be there for half an hour and get arrested, possibly be in jail for two years, or you can be there for eight hours ministering.
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So to answer your question, Rich, what's, when we go out there, the, the purpose is, is to disrupt the industry itself, to disrupt the business through not the blockade kind of tactic and methodology, but through the proclamation of the gospel.
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And what it looks like, Rich, is you have about, say from door to door, about 15 to 30 seconds from door to door.
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That's from their car door when they get out to the door of the abortion mill. And what we do is we call out to the women and to the fathers and we say, well, we tell the truth.
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We say, please don't murder your child today. We try to remind them of what they're suppressing. We, please don't murder your child today.
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God commands you not to murder your child. We tell them the gospel. There's forgiveness in Christ. Please turn to Christ for forgiveness and salvation.
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And then we plead with them for the life of their child. We say, we'll adopt your baby. We'll give you any resources, anything that you would possibly need.
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Do you need food? Do you need money? Do you need shelter? Do you need medical services?
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I mean, we know, Rich, we know of a doctor in Arizona who will do the entire process from start to finish for free if they don't go in for the abortion.
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And so we offer all of these things. And so our purpose of being there is to be a light to the neighborhood, to the community, to let them know what's happening, to preach the good news to these women and to save the lives of these children.
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And so, I mean, the amazing thing is, is that through God's grace, nothing special in us. And that's the truth.
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We've been able to hold some of these babies in our arms. That'll change you. I mean, it really does.
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My point in asking about the Operation Rescue Tie is a lot of people don't realize there was actually a reason for blockading the clinics.
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And that reason was very simple. And that is, they looked at the statistics of if, for whatever reason, a woman doesn't make that first appointment, statistically, there was a certain number of them that would not make a follow -up appointment.
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So by disrupting that first appointment, you statistically simply save lives.
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And so the idea of shutting down a clinic for a day or for even a period of time, it would yield the saving of lives.
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And that was the reason. Now, they went after the Randall Terry and the rest of them with RICO statutes and everything they could come after them with, just trying to pull everything out of the law books that could possibly find and twist them into something that would put them in jail or bankrupt them.
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And if I recall, that's they put an end to Operation Rescue. They bankrupted them. Yeah. No, that's a good point.
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When they started really coming back against Operation Rescue and all these Christians across the country that were doing this work, and they actually hit them with the
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RICO statute. I mean, that's the racketeering. That was essentially created for the mob.
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And so what it did is it actually created an extreme level of pressure and financial difficulties and collapse for Christians across the country, pastors, ministries, churches, in many, many ways.
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And so it did a really good job of being the symbol. It was courageous. It was beautiful.
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It was powerful. But as a result of that, what happened was the clinic started actually coming back against these
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Christians and those in this movement, hitting them with, I mean, there were people that had lawsuits of millions of dollars.
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Now, thank God, it turned out after they were actually penalized and there were just now clinics across the country globbing onto this and just coming after these guys.
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Thankfully, they won an appeal. And so that went away. But it did affect in many ways the ability to do that kind of a thing in the future.
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And so I think we've considered now as Christians, what would be a very effective and wise way to approach this at this point?
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How can we stay on the field longer? So our conviction is, look, you can go to that mill with your church and you can preach the gospel there for hours and you can see lives saved.
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You can see people come to Christ. I mean, it really is a powerful ministry. And, you know, it's amazing too,
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Rich, is like, we've been out there for, say, at the Mormon Temple for, I mean, you've been out there way longer than me.
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But so for me, 1996 was my first year. That's over 20 years of ministry for me.
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And when we go to the Mormon Temple, we've had moments where it's hostile. You get people that are aggressive, that are not happy you're there.
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They might grab you, grab your tracks, throw them down. They might throw something at you, spit in your face, throw an Arby's sandwich at somebody's head, you know, whatever.
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But generally speaking, I don't know if you feel the same way about this, Rich. I love that ministry because generally speaking, the
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Mormon people are so gracious and sweet. And it's an amazing experience.
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I walk away and I'm full. Like, that person was an amazing person.
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And I loved having a conversation with them. And there were moments where it might get hostile, but it's really an enjoyable experience in terms of it's great conversation and you get an opportunity to preach the gospel.
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I just got to say it, like, when you look at the abortion mill ministry that needs to take place across the country, the church can be light in this very dark area and it can end abortion at those mills.
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It is the most horrible, ugly, disgusting, disturbing experience you can possibly imagine.
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I mean, you can just consider it. You have a woman that's walking in to kill her child. She's going to murder her child that day.
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And she looks over at you and she says, looking you dead in the eyes, I know it's my baby.
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I don't care. I know it's murder and I'm going to do it anyways. All while she's giving you the finger and walking into that door.
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It's a horrible experience because your first time getting there, one of the things that happens often when you go to the abortion mill for the first time is people are all fired up.
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Yeah, I'm going to get to go to the abortion mill now and I'm going to go out there and I'm going to minister there and I'm excited about it.
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And you generally see, I'd say the great majority of people, their first time covered in tears because the reality of it sets in.
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I'm watching these mothers walk their babies into that door and they're going to execute their children and they're going to come out and their baby's going to be dead.
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They're not going to walk out or they're not a mom anymore. They're walking out of the mother of a dead child and it really starts to impact you and set in what's really happening in my community near me.
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This is actually taking place on a daily basis. I mean, there are some days at Our Planned Parenthood where you can have dozens, literally dozens of abortions on a
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Saturday morning as dozens of children killed. And so this is an important thing for us to address as a church.
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And I like Francis Schaefer has a quote. He says that over every abortion clinic in the
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United States reads a sign by permission of the church. And I think that that's powerful testimony to, not just to be hurtful saying it's your fault church, but powerful testimony to just,
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I think, what can be done in this area and in this ministry. And I just want to say ahead of time, for those of you guys who are listening, maybe
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God is working on your heart in this area. Maybe you feel a draw to this work. I want to say to you two things.
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One, this is the ugliest, most awful, horrible ministry you'll ever do. It is.
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And number two, it is the most beautiful and amazing and glorious ministry you'll ever do. The consequences of not being there are dramatic, but the beauty and benefits of being there are far more dramatic and beautiful.
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We've seen, and I just want to at least share some positive stories. We've seen God save twin baby girls at our location.
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We've seen God save a baby. I always bring a story up because it's precious to me.
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A little boy named Carmelo, his mother was actually in Planned Parenthood in Glendale on the pre -op table.
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She was in there and because of us being out there and preaching the gospel and testifying to what was going on in there, the father ends up coming out.
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I won't share the whole story with you. It's beautiful. But just for time's sake, he comes out, he ends up talking to one of the believers that are out there, and he ends up running back into Planned Parenthood and telling them, demanding, saying, let me go in there to get my wife out.
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And they're like, no, no, you can't go in there. And he says, if you don't let me in there right now, I'm going to kick that door down. And they finally let him in, grabs his wife, drags her out.
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They come out and they're both bawling right there in the parking lot. This is all taking place right in front of you. They're bawling their eyes out in the parking lot.
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We're all crying. And he comes up, take his family that day to eat, took care of his family's needs.
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We babysat his other children for months. The churches across the valley came up with money to get his business back online.
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He was a landscaper. Somebody had stolen his trailer with all of his stuff for his business, which is one of the reasons they said they needed to kill their baby was because they didn't have any way to support it.
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And so, we provided all that. We said, we'll pay for that. So, we got his business back online. We got his house, new furniture, babysat his children.
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And there's actually a sermon online you can see I gave. It's actually, praise God, for three years, it's the number one recommended sermon on YouTube for three years now.
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It's the sermon that shocked everyone. And it's titled that because it's true. That's what happened that day. Nobody expected me to bring up a baby safe from abortion.
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The sermon wasn't about abortion. So, it shocked everybody. But in that sermon, you'll see Tina come up with Carmelo and she's just crying, saying, please do this.
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Please get involved. Please. She just, she's weeping. And she says, if they hadn't been there that day,
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I wouldn't have my baby. So, please do this work. And I could be here for the next two episodes of Dividing Line talking about amazing stories.
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But let me just stress one last time. This is an important work for the Christian church to be in because what we're thinking about now is not just in theory babies might die.
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No, every day, right now, right now, today, in our nation, there is a baby.
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But before this episode is over, there will be babies who were killed by dismemberment, by chemical means, before this episode is over.
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And what needs to be said here is that the problem is spiritual.
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It is inherently spiritual. It is that, well, God says, those who hate me love what? Death. Those who hate me love death.
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And that couldn't be seen more vividly than what takes place at that abortion. Now, let me tell you, their feet are swift to shed blood.
29:10
Yep. Go to your local Planned Parenthood or Women's Center and that's exactly what you'll see. But the problem is spiritual. The problem is darkened heart.
29:16
The problem is Romans 3. There is none righteous. There is none who seeks for God. There is none who does good.
29:22
There is no fear of God before their eyes. Their feet are swift to shed blood. That is the problem across our nation.
29:29
And I want to stress this, just as a minister of the gospel, the way out, the way out of this is not through compromising and assuming a position of neutrality in this.
29:44
Because I'm convinced of this, Rich. If, as a nation, we have killed 60 million children since Roe v.
29:55
Wade, I'm convinced that if we ended abortion tomorrow and we just said, okay, we're not going to have abortion anymore, but we don't call it murder, we don't approach it for what it actually is, and we don't say anything about the past,
30:08
I don't think we've accomplished very much in terms of changing the course of our nation.
30:14
Where are we going? And, you know, you haven't addressed the salvific aspects because, you know, if you stop a nation from committing abortions where your nation, if your nation doesn't know
30:22
Jesus, people don't know Jesus, what have you accomplished? And so, I'm convinced as a minister of the gospel that the answer to abortion in our country is not through neutrality, not through compromise, but it's through the proclamation of the gospel.
30:34
What do we believe fundamentally, especially on this amazing program?
30:39
We believe Romans 1 .16, that it is the gospel that is the power of God for salvation.
30:47
We have to allow the issue of abortion to be about the gospel. And why am
30:53
I stressing that right now? I'm stressing it right now because over the last 40 years, the pro -life movement, for all of the amazing things that God has done in His providence and in His grace and power, the things that He has done to preserve so many lives through some of the labor and ministry of people who are in the pro -life movement, in many ways, it's been a failure to the degree that it does not stand on the
31:22
Word of God and make the issue about sin and the gospel. You mentioned,
31:28
Rich, and I've heard James talk about it, you've mentioned that Dr. White was heavily involved, he was arrested at an abortion mill, and that he had to eventually make his way out and allow a distinction to be made between what his message was and what was happening commonly in the pro -life movement.
31:49
And that, we know, is you have a lot of Roman Catholics in the pro -life movement, and I thank
31:54
God for every Roman Catholic standing for the life of a child. I thank God for that. But there is a lot of compromise in the pro -life movement in the sense that, and I'll play a clip for you in a moment here, even the
32:05
Vice President for the National Right to Life says that they don't want to call it murder, and they're not fighting for it in terms of, let's fight against it as the murder of a child.
32:17
And they even say things very clearly, like, we want to take a backdoor approach. We don't want to use
32:23
Christian terminology, we don't want to use Christian language, we just want to make this about biology. We just want to make it about, that's a human life.
32:32
And what I say to that is that, I don't think you're spending a lot of time out on the streets.
32:38
I don't think you're spending a lot of time communicating with the people in our culture today. You say to them all day, that's a human being,
32:46
I can demonstrate it to you, not only from the scriptures, but also biologically speaking. It has all the biological components of a human being from conception.
32:54
The only difference is size, level of development, environment, and degree of dependence. Biologically, human being.
33:00
You could show it to them all day. You know what they still say? I know it's a human being, and I still have the right to kill it.
33:08
Because it's a moral question. It's not a question of whether it's a human being, that's undeniable.
33:15
It's irrefutable. At this point, abortionists don't go that direction. You see abortionists saying, yeah,
33:20
I know I'm killing a human child, right? But I have a moral right to do it. It's a question of whose law will you obey?
33:29
My own personal law? The law of my little huddle over here at ASU? The law of this guy or that group?
33:37
Whose law do we obey? Who gets to say that we shouldn't kill another human being in the womb?
33:43
Because what you'll see on the streets, and you'll see it in our videos that we post, we record what happens out there so that the world sees it.
33:49
We're trying to put light on it. You'll see people say, yeah, I know it's murder, and I have a right to murder my child.
33:58
Yeah, I know it's a human being. So the pro -life movement will approach this many times.
34:03
Not everybody. It'd be wrong to broad brush it, because there are a lot of solid Christians who are considered pro -life and in a pro -life movement and cause.
34:09
But they'll say things often like, well, we don't want to call it murder, and we just need to convince people of the biological aspects of it.
34:17
Well, the problem is, is you're throwing all of that against a human heart that is fallen, right?
34:24
It's a fallen human heart. And they're like, yeah, I know it's human, and I can kill it. I can murder it.
34:30
It's my choice. My body, my choice. And so what I think needs to take place as local churches across the
34:38
United States is we need to consider that we have to speak into this issue from a Christian, a consistent
34:44
Christian position, standing on the word of God and biblical principles, actually making this about repentance and faith.
34:50
Like that's a human being made in the image of God, and it's murder, and God commands you not to do it.
34:56
And here's what Jesus did to save murderers. This is the story of Jesus. Now, repent and believe the gospel.
35:02
That's our approach. So you look at your itching to say something. Well, I was going to say that it is interesting how far the seared conscience of this mentality has come because back in the 80s and the 90s, the terminologies that were used by these people were all geared to dehumanize as much as possible.
35:28
And so it wasn't we're aborting a baby. It is we're removing products of conception or think along those lines.
35:39
So everything that they could do to dehumanize what they're doing as abortionists in order to salve their conscience.
35:49
Now, it just seems like if you don't see the hand of God being taken off of the restraints of these people over the last 15 to 20 years, you're not paying attention.
36:02
That's right. Because nowadays it's, yeah, so what? It's just that simple.
36:08
It's there. The shame is no longer there. The moral restraints are all off.
36:15
That's right. And their depravity is out there for all to see if you're willing to see it.
36:21
Yeah. And you know, you make a good point, Rich, is I just posted on my Facebook page yesterday, just look it up.
36:28
I posted an article about a brochure from Planned Parenthood from the fifties. And in the brochure from Planned Parenthood from the fifties, they're talking about birth control saying, you know, abortion kills a human child, but not birth control.
36:43
And so the argument they were making back then is no, no abortion doesn't. Abortion can cause a woman to be sterile. And, you know, they were basically making the argument that it's dangerous.
36:50
This is like Planned Parenthood's propaganda from the fifties admitting, yeah, it kills a child and it can actually disrupt a woman's ability to reproduce over the longterm.
37:00
And then you move into the seventies in 1973, Roe v. Wade, you've got this really corrupt court opinion that says that, and it's just amazing, it says that what's in the womb is potential human life.
37:15
So the argument made with Roe was what's in the womb is quote, potential human life.
37:21
Now we knew biblically, no, that's a human being from conception, image of God, fearfully, wonderfully made.
37:28
God says in his law, you can use as a case law example, what happens when you kill a child in the womb? God says life for life.
37:35
I mean, whatever your feelings are about the law of God and the case law examples, we have to at least say in terms of how God defined what was in the womb and justice there, he was talking about a human being and it had a legal protection.
37:48
That's from God's perspective. But also we knew biologically that's foolish, unscientific, but now here's the great thing.
37:57
Here's the great thing. And it goes well with what Rich was saying about God's restraining hand being taken off.
38:03
You have now today with so much progress in medical science and the ability to look at the bottom of life, the ability to see that no, from conception, you have this marvelous, amazing thing happen at conception where you've got the blueprint there, the
38:20
DNA, you've got the decision already made of whether it's a male or a female. Yeah, either way, male or female, you've got all these distinctions, these parts and pieces put into there that make the person who they are from conception.
38:36
And so what happens now is that we went from potential human life to us knowing, no, no, it's human life, not potential.
38:43
It's not becoming human in the womb. It's human from conception. It's just a difference of degree to now people just go, okay, yeah,
38:51
I can't make that argument any longer. It's not just a mass of tissue. It's not just a blob. It's not just potential human life.
38:59
It is human life distinct from conception. And so you've got people just saying today, yeah, and no constitutional rights.
39:08
And hopefully we have a moment to play that clip too from Hillary Clinton, who was like, yeah, it doesn't have any constitutional rights and it's an unborn person.
39:15
But let me do this just to whet your appetite, just to show you the importance of apologetics, the biblical worldview, engaging the culture and how abortion becomes a sacred right of the secularist.
39:27
It's just, that's what we ought to do. Their humanism, their atheism, their secularism dictates it.
39:34
So here is a clip. Maybe we'll be able to get you guys some, if we do some clips on Thursday, we'll get you some clips where you see the video.
39:42
This is at least the audio. This is outside of Planned Parenthood Tempe. And just to give you a little bit of context, because it is sort of a fast moving clip.
39:50
It's not very long. We try to call out to the women to save the children, but now
39:56
Planned Parenthood supporters actually organize against us and try to block us. They ring cowbells.
40:03
They actually play over a loud speaker, messages from Anton LaVey, the author of the
40:09
Satanic Bible. They play loud techno and just trance and electronica, just to try to like make it to where people can't hear us.
40:20
So there's these Planned Parenthood supporters that day trying to stop us from saving these children. That's why they're there, to stop us from saving these children.
40:28
Well, while I'm out there, this man walks from behind me and I want you to hear the conversation. What's that?
40:37
As long as I'm being able to choose. Who being able to choose? Whoever, man. People should be able to do what they want with their bodies.
40:44
So can I rape a woman? No, you shouldn't do that. So I can't do what I want with my own body, can
40:50
I? You do what you want with your body. You just can't do anything with anybody else's body. So let me try this. A person should be able to do what they want with their own body.
40:58
Yeah. We shouldn't be able to, we shouldn't be allowed to just abuse other people's bodies.
41:04
Absolutely. Okay. So in the case of what's happening inside there right now, the woman's body is not dying.
41:10
It's another body biologically distinct inside of her that is being killed. I'm all for women doing what they want with their bodies.
41:18
I'm in agreement with you, actually, fundamentally, that we shouldn't be able to harm other people's bodies, which is precisely what's happening in there.
41:25
I'm glad you joined us. Well, I'm all for your freedom of speech and everything, but I still just think it should be up to them.
41:31
You shouldn't really... So there you go. So starting point there, he comes up, women should be able to do what they want with their own bodies.
41:42
Now, there are common responses from the pro -choicers from across the country, politicians that fight for this.
41:52
They've memorized their party lines. So you've got some popular ones. Let's try it. Rich, give me one from someone who's pro -choice.
41:59
Well, they'll say, would you have an argument that you'll hear from them? I'll give you one. My body, my choice. Right? My body, my choice.
42:08
Or I'll give you, and I know I'm putting you on the spot there, so I'm sorry about that. But how about the common one?
42:14
You can literally quote it with them. If you see any politician arguing on a stage for abortion, they'll say,
42:21
I believe that abortion is a very personal thing and the decision should be kept between the woman, her doctor, her pastor, her family, her conscience.
42:35
It's a memorized line. And so you'll have other ones. How about this one?
42:41
Don't want an abortion. Don't have an abortion. You just have these common responses.
42:47
They've just memorized and they haven't thought through them long enough or hard enough to realize they're totally fallacious.
42:54
Yeah. Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. There you go. See? Safe, legal, and rare. So we've got your arguments memorized, y 'all.
43:01
And they're just very poor arguments and people haven't thought through them. Here's a gentleman who's probably just the product of our culture, the product of our media, our education system.
43:13
And he says, women can do what they want with their body. Now let's stop and think about it for a moment. Women can do what they want with their own body.
43:20
Okay. But what we're talking about with abortion is that she's not doing what she wants with her own body.
43:27
She's doing what she wants with another body that's biologically distinct from hers, has its own set of DNA that's within her, but they haven't thought through it because it just sounds so good.
43:39
Why? Because it pulls on your emotional heartstrings. Who doesn't want to do what they want with their own body? And by the way,
43:44
I actually happen to agree that the government shouldn't impose upon me to tell me what
43:49
I can do with my own body in terms of my own personal decisions for myself.
43:55
Right? I mean, I think a person should have the right to cut off their own hand if they want.
44:01
It's ignorant. It's not wise, but I personally don't think that the government should tell me how I can address myself, what
44:09
I should do with my own personal body. However, where does justice now start to come into play?
44:15
And where does the question of government involvement come into play? It's when there's an injustice perpetrated upon another human being, when somebody else is a victim.
44:24
That's where we start talking about justice and a victim's rights and those sorts of things. But this gentleman hasn't thought through that.
44:30
He just says a woman could do what she wants with her own body. And so I demonstrated to him, well,
44:36
I believe that too. But what's inside of her is biologically distinct and that's what's dying.
44:42
So when a woman walks in to an abortion mill and the argument is made, she's just doing what she wants with her own body.
44:48
Well, if abortion affected her own body, then she'd be dead. She'd be the one dying inside, but it's her walking out.
44:56
So there was another body that was killed within her. But let's go on here. Decisions should just be up to anybody.
45:03
So we should be able to molest children. We should be able to molest children, rape women.
45:09
No, no, no, no. You still have to have morals. Morals are important. Where does this come from? It's just life, man. It's just life, bro.
45:15
It's life. It's just life, bro. Yeah. It's just morals. It's just life, bro. Yeah. Okay. So the child molester in the cage right now that we've caged up, who kidnapped and dismembered a small little girl after raping her, we put him in jail.
45:31
Do you think he should be there? Oh, absolutely. Well, he lives by a different moral code than you. He believes that what he did is a good, moral, happy thing.
45:38
Not necessarily. He got pleasure from it. Well, there's lots of people today that are pedophiles that enjoy it. Why don't you let them have their way?
45:45
For your will, bro. A lot of the times that's usually a psychological issue. Who says it's a psychological issue? So the scriptures teach us,
45:52
Proverbs 26, verses four and five, in terms of how to respond to the fool.
45:59
The Bible says, don't answer the fool according to their folly, lest you be like unto them.
46:06
You can tell which version I memorized that one in, but don't answer the fool according to their folly or you'll be like them.
46:11
That is to say, don't act like them. Don't take their presuppositions. Don't take their starting points.
46:18
Don't behave like them. Don't answer them according to their folly or you'll be like them. And then the other part of that sounds like a twofold method.
46:28
It says, answer the fool according to their folly, unless they would be wise in their own conceit.
46:35
And that is to say, you want to step into their position, into their argument and show them its consequences.
46:42
And so when this gentleman moved from, she can do what she wants with her own body, you demonstrate, but it's not her body that's being affected.
46:50
It's the body of this, the child. Now, there's no response given to that. He just says, what? He says, no,
46:57
I still think she can do what she wants. And that's the point. That's really the answer is that she should be able to do what she wants, even with the life of a child.
47:06
That's really the argument. And so when you ask the, this gentleman's agnostic, when you ask the agnostic today, well, what do you mean she should be able to do what she wants with her own body?
47:17
Is there some moral reason for that? Is there a moral ought that she can, I mean, what, how, where do we, where do we get this?
47:24
And his, his, his answer is what? Something objective, something outside of himself that everyone should appeal to, something outside of his own personal preferences and likes and dislikes.
47:35
No, he just says, it's just life, bro. Like, it's just life. Like, that's just the way things are.
47:41
It's just that way. Now imagine if a Christian argued like that, a
47:47
Christian is challenged on a moral question. Why do you think this is the case?
47:52
Or why do you think that this is true? Or that's true? What if a Christian responded to the secularist in that way?
47:57
That's just the way it is. What if a Christian said something that was along those lines? Just cause.
48:04
I mean, that's really the answer this gentleman gets is, how come she should be able to do this? Well, just cause.
48:11
Cause free will, because life, bro. And so onward, here we go. Scientists, you talk it.
48:18
No, you're talking about brain gas, biochemical responses happening in the brain. Neurons, neurons are firing.
48:25
So you're talking about a condition that's happening in the brain of evolved protoplasm and the decision led to certain activities and you're condemning the activity that came from the brain gas.
48:37
No, I'm saying that that right there can sometimes be affected like a disease.
48:43
And sometimes it's brain gas, but it led to an activity. You're saying the activity is wrong.
48:48
On what basis is the activity wrong? You shouldn't do anything. Are you an atheist? Agnostic.
48:56
Okay. So coming from an agnostic worldview, on what basis do you call anything wrong?
49:02
So what's interesting is when he talked to the issue of say the pedophile, because remember we're going from she can do what she wants with her own body.
49:11
And then, well, it's not really her body to, well she should be able to make her own moral decisions.
49:17
And so where do you get that from? What's right and what's wrong from your perspective? He talks about pedophilia as though there was something wrong with it.
49:26
From his perspective, how do you come to that conclusion? How is there any ought in your perspective, in your worldview?
49:34
I mean, you look down at the pedophile and you say, I don't like this moral behavior over here, but how do you get to charge him with any wrongdoing?
49:41
How do you get to condemn the pedophile in your worldview? I know how I do it as a Christian. I know exactly how to do it as a
49:47
Christian, but from an agnostic perspective. And so what he says, well, that's generally something psychologically wrong.
49:53
Science shows us there's something maybe mentally wrong, but there's a problem there. And that's from his perspective, we're all protoplasm and what's happening in between our ears is just neurons firing, chemicals are going off, biochemical responses.
50:06
And so some stuff is happening in this three pound mass in my head, and that leads to activities and you're condemning the activity itself.
50:14
First of all, I'm not responsible for my brain gas in this position. And what's wrong with the, what's wrong with the thing?
50:21
I mean, if you say it's a psychological condition and it's wrong, you're acting like that has something to do with the chemical responses happening in our brain.
50:31
So where do you, where do you get all this? How do you get that from an agnostic perspective? Anything wrong?
50:40
What do you mean by that? You're an agnostic, right? So you don't know. True. Right. Yeah. Okay. So someone who doesn't know is making all kinds of knowledge claims.
50:51
Yeah. But I still believe it morally, just deep down the humankind, it's the right thing to do.
50:56
Okay. Do you believe that we evolved to get here? Oh, absolutely. You believe that our ancestors are, that we're African apes. Our ancestors were fish.
51:03
So we're, we're evolved fish. Right. Right. And you're condemning certain human behaviors and activities in a universe that doesn't care about us when our ancestors were fish.
51:14
You're calling one, you're calling one value that's risen up over evolutionary time wrong and one right.
51:20
Those are arbitrary. Yeah. But see, sometimes just people don't have, thank you.
51:26
Science is a methodology. So over, yeah, yeah. Over, over, um, on the property, there's the
51:35
Planned Parenthood supporters that generally weren't responding to me or wanting to talk until I'm in a conversation with somebody else.
51:41
They're sort of like interjecting, no science, science. But I want to just talk about answer the fool according to their folly.
51:47
If I step into this man's position, he believes, and by the way, Rich, I, I, atheists get upset with me often when
51:54
I do this, I'll say, let's talk about your worldview. You believe that our ancestors were highly evolved societies of bacteria.
52:00
Then we go from there to some kind of like sea worms to fish to we're now we're here. We're African apes and people really hate it when you bring that up.
52:08
This gentleman was like, yeah, yep. Our ancestors were fish. Well, here's the point. You make a moral complaint while believing that worldview.
52:17
You say, I think that this is wrong. But the problem is if your perspective is that we came from the soup, highly evolved societies of bacteria, then you have the results of an evolutionary process that didn't have us in mind.
52:34
It's not guided. It's not purposed. There's no meaning. And you've got time and chance acting on matter that brings, brings these products of an evolutionary process before us.
52:46
And you've got people who are protoplasm talking about different values.
52:53
One value is, is say, love others, care for them, don't hurt them.
52:58
The other value is destroy humans, hurt them, enjoy it, right? These are two different values that have risen up.
53:06
Now, this gentleman, I would argue because he's in the imago Dei, he's in the image of God. He knows the character of God.
53:12
The law of God is written within him. He's saying, you ought not do this behavior to a child.
53:18
You not, you, you ought not act in this way, do these sorts of things. Well, the problem is from his perspective, you have people that have risen up in this world who don't agree with him.
53:30
They don't agree with him. You see, they actually enjoy hurting people. They actually enjoy inflicting harm and pain on others.
53:39
So there's two values that have risen up. One says love others and do them no harm. The other one says harm others and enjoy it.
53:46
And there are people who believe that. They actually enjoy inflicting harm and pain on others. This gentleman disagrees.
53:53
But the point is, is his decision to love other human beings and protect them is an arbitrary one because it's just based on his own personal preference.
54:01
Because there's another bag of protoplasm right now down the road behind a cage who didn't happen to agree with his value system.
54:08
And this gentleman has no argument with him, no room for a moral complaint, no position to have any moral indignation, none.
54:19
It's just arbitrary, subjective, personal preference, not based on anything objective.
54:26
It's not like we're talking about the image of God here, right? It's not like we're talking about human beings that have value and dignity and worth and were created with a purpose.
54:34
It's not as though there's an actual law that exists outside of ourselves based upon the character of an eternal immutable
54:42
God, right? So let's consider that when you talk to the person today who tries to make moral arguments in that way from an agnostic perspective.
54:53
A little more. How can you, can you prove that it's not?
55:00
Are you saying that science gives you, gives you morals? No. Thank you. That's what we were talking about.
55:07
You're late catching up. Okay. Back to what we were talking about. Science is a methodology. Science is a methodology.
55:12
It requires induction. Science is a methodology requires induction. We were talking about morality. So you're in a different conversation.
55:18
I feel like you're kind of trying to change the subject. No, we were, if you want to talk about science, I'll ask you how you can account for induction, which is at the very bottom of science.
55:26
You have to have uniformity in nature and induction, the principle of induction in order to actually do the scientific method.
55:33
Oh, absolutely. Right. So let me ask you, let me ask you as a, as an agnostic, how do you justify and appeal to uniformity in the principle of induction, given that you are an agnostic, you don't know that the next five seconds will be like the past.
55:47
Yeah. So we need to know that for science to work. Not necessarily. You just kind of have to live, man. That's what
55:53
I was saying earlier. I would encourage you to really, really examine that because if you really hold to the scientific method, you need induction and uniformity in nature.
56:01
So here's the, here's an example of what commonly takes place outside of the abortion mill and just in culture in general.
56:07
People will often confront Christians today in a way that so contradicts history.
56:14
It is biblical worldview and Christians that gave to the world these great educational institutions and scientific institutions.
56:21
When you look at things like Harvard, Yale, Cambridge, Oxford, these are, these are educational institutions that didn't just happen to be done by Christians.
56:34
These were institutions that were given birth to because of the biblical worldview specifically to glorify
56:42
Jesus Christ. And so when you look at the big pop of science, of modern science, that took place because of the biblical worldview.
56:50
And, but what you'll get today is the common claim. Well, I'm scientific and you're religious.
56:56
I believe in science and evidence and reason, and you believe in faith. You just accept things by blind faith.
57:03
So you're a blind faith religionist and I am a scientific minded person.
57:09
I believe in intellectualism. I believe in reason and science and evidence and observation.
57:14
Well, here was an opportunity for this gentleman to actually demonstrate why that matters from his perspective.
57:20
So when she said, no, it's science, I said, well, let me ask you how with your agnostic worldview, do you make an appeal to scientific method?
57:29
Now, this is really, really important. I hope for those of you guys are thinking about this the first time, you don't let this miss you because it's important and it is devastating.
57:37
One of the reasons the biblical worldview gave rise to science is that Christians believe in a
57:44
God who is personal, who has revealed himself. He has told us things that we can be certain about.
57:51
And what he says about the world is that he purposed it, he governs it, and he carries it along to its intended destination.
57:58
So what did that give Christians? That gave them a perspective on the world and life that was this,
58:04
I can actually depend upon nature to be uniform. I believe that nature is law -like because it's governed by God.
58:13
I believe that I can actually observe the world, I can test it, I can use my reason because that's what
58:19
God is like. God governs the universe. How do I know it? God has revealed himself. He's revealed himself in creation, in his son, in his word.
58:27
So Christians believe science is possible on that basis. We believe that the future will be like the past and that our observations mean anything at all because we believe in a
58:39
God who governs the universe very personally. Now, this gentleman says science because science.
58:45
And my question to him was, very simply, the scientific method depends upon induction, that nature is uniform, that the future will be like the past.
58:54
Now, how do you justify and appeal to science as an atheist? Because listen, what are you going to get in this debate on abortion?
59:01
You're going to get it all the time, I assure you, is that you are a blind faith religionist and we are the scientifically minded.
59:11
We are the intellectuals. We believe in reason. Now, here's an opportunity for a man to go past the quip, to go past just the claim of science, and to give a reason for it.
59:22
And here's what he says. Sure. What you don't see in a science textbook is, we need science, bro.
59:29
Just cause. You don't see it in a science textbook. That's true. But when you're trying to come at me after you're yelling at them.
59:35
No, I'm not coming at you, bro. Obviously, I can't bring science as the first thing to you. I'm asking you as an agnostic to justify it.
59:43
Justify and appeal to induction. We need the future to be like the past. We need the universe to be uniform.
59:48
How would humankind progress? How would you get from the fish to the human now and from what we're going to be in a thousand years?
59:55
I mean this respectfully. I don't think you understand what I'm saying to you. So science depends upon the uniformity of nature.
01:00:02
We have to do things based upon observation, right? So we examine a cell, we examine
01:00:08
DNA, biology, we examine something and we recognize that there are repeated patterns, that the future will be like the past.
01:00:14
Past experiences showed us one thing through observation. Therefore, we now move from those past experiences to project into the future what will be in the future.
01:00:24
That's the basis of science. So I'm asking you as an agnostic who believes that your ancestors were fish in a purposeless, unguided universe, how do you justify and satisfy the preconditions necessary for science and the uniformity of nature when you believe that we live in a godless universe that's not governed?
01:00:45
I didn't say that. Godless is atheist. Agnostic, it means that I just don't believe.
01:00:51
I don't know. So you live by faith? Right. Blind faith. I just kind of go with the flow. You live by blind faith?
01:00:57
Yeah. Yeah. Right. That's not the Christian position. So there you go. So what you'll notice if you begin to answer the fool according to their folly and you dig into their position and actually have them examine it is that when this man is asked to provide a justification for induction, which he claimed science, science depends upon induction and the uniformity in nature, essentially he just says, well, it's just the way that it is.
01:01:25
Like what if a Christian argued in that way with the unbeliever? They say, you know, provide a basis with your biblical worldview for science.
01:01:31
And a Christian goes, that's just the way that it is. It's just that way, bro. Like that's just how it goes.
01:01:38
So when it's pointed out to him, you just live by faith. What does he say? He's honest. You got to respect the man.
01:01:44
You have to give him respect. He said that he does believe his ancestors were fish and that he lives by blind faith.
01:01:52
That's his position. And isn't it interesting that unbelievers often entertain the claim that it is
01:01:59
Christians who live by blind faith. I would argue that the Christian faith is not a blind faith commitment.
01:02:06
It's based on objectivity, reason. It is based on truth, rigorous intellectual thinking.
01:02:15
We don't want to bite down on things that aren't true. We, as Christians, we say, what about Jesus? John 14 6,
01:02:20
I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father, but by me. I mean, as Christians, we say that we love and believe the one who is the very embodiment of truth.
01:02:30
So we ought to be people who pursue truth. This man says he lives by blind faith.
01:02:36
That blind faith, why I'm saying, I'm saying you have a worldview. I have a worldview. You're entitled.
01:02:43
Yeah. You live by blind faith. So therefore you really have no argument with say back to the moral position.
01:02:48
You really have no position to argue with, say the rapist, the kidnapper, the enslaver, the murderer position though.
01:02:56
I'm entitled to my, listen, you can believe of course what you want. But what I'm saying is that I'm talking to you as, as, as a
01:03:03
Christian with, with love saying that with your position of blind faith that you've granted with no basis for science or morality, you can't really make an appeal to morality at all because you live by faith.
01:03:14
You don't know you're an agnostic. You don't know. Right. So when you walk past here though, you didn't act like you didn't know when you walk past here, when you walk past here, you didn't act like you didn't know.
01:03:23
You actually said they should be able to do what they want with their bodies. So how, how do you make sense of that when you said that you don't have any way to justify morality or science?
01:03:33
You don't know you live by faith. Do you see? No, I see it. I feel like this conversation is kind of going in circles.
01:03:40
I understand what you're saying and I respect what you're saying, but I, so final thing here, it's almost done.
01:03:46
Just another minute right here. Um, what I don't want to do, and I mean this very personally,
01:03:52
I just want to be transparent. Um, I hate going to the abortion mill. I hate it. Um, it's an awful experience.
01:03:58
The majority of the time. Um, it's hostile. It's difficult. I don't get to see my family a lot.
01:04:05
I mean, I get to bring my family with me sometimes. My kids, my kids actually want to go, they ask me to go.
01:04:11
Um, and it's really developed within them, a very strong sense of justice here. So it's really been a blessing for us, but you know, it's a, it's an awful experience.
01:04:20
And why do we go? Because we want people to know God. We want people to know Jesus. We want babies lives to be saved and we want people to know
01:04:28
Christ. That is our motivation. And so here's a moment where I'm kind of in a hurry. You may notice if you watch the video, it's an apology of studios.
01:04:35
One of the last ones we posted, you might notice I'm kind of in a hurry with this guy. Like I'm, I'm, I am being fast with him and direct and I'm, you know,
01:04:42
I'm showing him his position as quickly as I can. That is foolish. Like when I say it's just that way, bro, like I'm, I'm trying to point out like how silly it is, what you're saying to me.
01:04:52
I'm trying to go as fast as I can, but I didn't want this man to leave with just, there's a refutation, like you're done.
01:04:59
And I turned back around and neglect his greatest need. We shouldn't do that.
01:05:05
And, um, I'm not always going to do everything right. I'm still developing as a, as a Christian and as a minister.
01:05:10
And I pray that God continues to shape me and grow me and how I reach people. But I just want to say, I believe that this is what it's all about.
01:05:18
So here's, here's where he's about to walk away. We're just going to keep going. Well, I want you to know just with my name is
01:05:24
Jeff Jonathan. Nice to meet you. I just want you to know why we're here. Just so you don't, you know, we're not knowing we love you.
01:05:30
We care for these women. Over 70 babies have been saved through this work. That's awesome. Carmelo, Olivia, grace,
01:05:36
Cara, like I can show you pictures. Um, that's why we're here. Cause we care. We love these people. We want you to just know something.
01:05:43
Just last thing I'll say to you. And I really appreciate you stopping. Okay. Um, we're here because we're forgiven because we're saved.
01:05:49
God loves us. He died for our sins and rose from the dead. And the message is that all who turned from their sin to come to him will be forgiven.
01:05:55
And that's what we want for you. That's that's the message. I appreciate that. I appreciate you, James. God bless you, man.
01:06:01
You too. Thank you. So that was the end of about a seven minute conversation with that gentleman.
01:06:09
And that sort of thing will happen pretty regularly out there. And I wanted to share that one in particular with you because I think it shows a blend of, um, the really silly rhetoric that we get through the media and politicians use all the time in support of abortion, but also all of that blended together with this, um, essentially functioning atheistic worldview.
01:06:34
He's an agnostic, but not really. I described his view of origins, right?
01:06:40
Um, bacteria to fish to African apes, uh, we don't know anything. I mean, he's a functioning atheist, even if he's professing to be an agnostic.
01:06:49
Um, and so you start to see that's the common worldview that you get blended together with this sacred right of abortion.
01:06:56
And so that happens, um, pretty regularly. And, uh, you can go to, uh, apology of studios on YouTube.
01:07:02
If you want to look into this more and you can watch a ton of videos that we have up there, actually doing evangelism outside the abortion mills, lots of videos on this, uh, some stuff's up at endabortionnow .com.
01:07:13
You guys can watch videos there, um, and sort of get prepared. If you want your church to get involved in this kind of work, we have an entire thing set up for local churches, uh, to, to be involved and to get free training and free resources, no cost at all.
01:07:26
All of it's all of it's up for local churches to get involved. Rich, how much time do we have? We're about done.
01:07:31
Can I just have five more minutes? Okay. So I, um, I have a plan for Thursday.
01:07:39
I'll pray about it some more and think about what to do in terms of what would be most beneficial. I want this to actually be helpful, uh, something on a dividing line from, from me, um, uh, that would be of benefit to you.
01:07:50
So there's a few more things I'd like to say on this, but I, let me just, let me end with, with this.
01:07:56
Um, you know, I, I personally wasn't always active in this particular ministry.
01:08:04
Um, there, by the way, there are so many ministries, you know, you see it often, you see people get involved in ministry to the abortion mill and guys, it is so horrible and awful.
01:08:16
And the reality of it hits you so hard. You need encouragement and accountability from your local churches.
01:08:21
I'll tell you, this can turn you crazy. It can turn you, it can, it can really mess you up.
01:08:27
It can really, it can destroy your marriage. It can destroy your, your, your work. I've seen people, uh, that it's destroyed their relationships because they're, they obsess about it.
01:08:36
They can't do anything but think about it. It's all they think about. It's all they talk about. It literally can disrupt your family life.
01:08:43
I mean, so much can be disrupted. You need the local church, you need shepherding, you need accountability in this ministry.
01:08:49
It is very, very difficult. Um, but you know, we weren't personally always in this the way that we are now.
01:08:57
We got involved, you know, I guess it's coming on four years ago. And since that time, we just have tried to be faithful as a church to go out and to be faithful and to preach the truth and, and, and to love these women and men.
01:09:10
And God has blessed it. He didn't have to. I mean, he could set his hand of judgment on every person that we talked to and he'd be right to do it.
01:09:23
He could, he could allow people to not see the truth and it could be his righteous judgment on a nation, um, to allow that to take place, but he's blessed us.
01:09:32
And, and through that work, people have just simply heard us, watched us, viewed what was happening and been inspired themselves and encouraged from their local church.
01:09:41
They've been convicted and challenged and they've gone out and started to go. And so through all of that work, you're talking thousands and thousands of babies have been saved and the gospel has been preached literally tens of thousands of times across the country.
01:09:56
And, you know, here's our hope. Our hope is that through the work of local churches across the
01:10:04
United States and bringing the gospel into this context, not just watch, this is important, not just at the abortion mills, but generally into the culture by speaking the truth about this and speaking to our legislatures consistently as Christians, that we can see a dramatic impact in this area through the gospel.
01:10:24
And one more thing I want to say on the side of that, in terms of becoming obsessed with this ministry, where it literally becomes an idol, you like, literally make it the litmus test for like faithful ministry.
01:10:37
Like, do you have a ministry of the gospel in this area? It becomes the test for orthodoxy for sometimes for people who don't find balance and get encouragement and support in this area.
01:10:49
You know, there are so many areas that we as the church need to get involved in. For example, when I see churches without a ministry to Mormons in Phoenix or Salt Lake, there's part of me that goes, what's wrong with you?
01:11:05
Right? Yeah. You go, do you realize there's 100 ,000 people that show up to the
01:11:11
Mormon temple in Mesa, Arizona every year, over 100 ,000 people that you get to go there and not be arrested.
01:11:19
You get to go there and preach the gospel and they'll stop and talk to you. Do you know that we actually know where they're at? It's like, you know, you're going to go fishing and you don't know where in the lake they are.
01:11:28
So like, you're just casting it out, trying, but you actually are being told, oh no, they're right here. This is where they're all at.
01:11:34
So there's times where like, I think it's a wrong response for me to make now the test for orthodoxy or faithfulness for a church in Phoenix as to whether or not they have a ministry for Mormons, like a specific ministry like me.
01:11:48
Do I think it's important for them to get involved? Do I think it's important for them to go? Absolutely. And I want them to go and be encouraged to go.
01:11:54
But we lose balance when we start saying, you're not doing the ministry that I'm doing exactly like me.
01:12:00
So therefore, you're not orthodox. You're not faithful. You're sinning against God. However, there is a thing about this issue of abortion that we need to consider.
01:12:10
These abortion clinics are all over our communities and towns and they're killing babies today.
01:12:17
Babies are dying. People are going to hell. And I think it's the mission of the Christian church to make sure that we engage in these areas.
01:12:26
And my encouragement is for you to get involved. If you feel the pull of God here, if you feel challenged and convicted, go to your pastors, go to your leadership and start talking about this kind of ministry and how you guys can be faithful in this area as Christians in this culture.
01:12:41
And I think important in this respect, and I'll end on this note,
01:12:47
Dr. White said, I heard him a while back saying this, that he had to eventually leave and stop participating in the way that he was from the pro -life movement locally because their message wasn't essentially
01:13:03
Christian. It wasn't about the gospel. They were compromising in the ways that they were.
01:13:10
And what I want to say is this, I think the great impact that we can have in this area as Christians is going to be related to how we stand on the word of God and herald the gospel in the midst of this.
01:13:25
So for example, there are people who try to approach the issue of abortion in a way like, let's get cleaner abortion mills.
01:13:35
Let's do this. Let's try to thwart the abortion stuff through all these different pieces of legislation, but let's try to go roundabout, take a backdoor approach.
01:13:45
Here's the thing. Van Til said that God can strike a straight blow with a crooked stick, but I don't think we should be using crooked sticks all the time.
01:13:53
And what I mean by that is I think we all agree that what needs to take place here is consistent gospel content in the message in this area.
01:14:03
And so what that means is I think as Christians, we should just firm up our commitments to the word of God. We should love people enough to the truth here and to preach the gospel in the midst of this.
01:14:13
We should not pretend neutrality and stand on neutral ground. We should proclaim the message of Jesus and the law of God and his standards in the midst of this.
01:14:22
And I do believe with all my heart that by God's grace and power, he will bless that kind of work.
01:14:30
He will truly bless it. I've seen it happen. I know what God's word says about it.
01:14:36
And I believe as Christians, if we stand on the word of God and the gospel in the midst of this,
01:14:42
I believe God has the power to bring light that will dispel all this darkness. I believe him for that.
01:14:49
One of the things that Dr. White did to damage me permanently, yeah, and I mean this,
01:14:58
I'm teasing when I say that, but I mean in the sense that it's disrupted my life, and I thank
01:15:04
God for it, is Dr. White taught me over the last 20 years of my life, he's taught me to believe that God is completely sovereign and that his purposes cannot be thwarted and that he does what he wants.
01:15:21
That damaged me because what it did was, is it created within me a trust in that truth and a desire to lay down my life, no matter what comes, believing that God is sovereign over the outcome.
01:15:41
And I know this, what's my role in all this? My role is to be faithful and to tell the truth.
01:15:47
And so my call to brothers and sisters who are watching this who feel right now like, yeah, I think I'm in, I think
01:15:52
I want to do this, is tell the truth, let it be about the gospel, get involved in the local church to do it, and then go, go and speak the truth to your abortion mills, speak the truth across your social media related to this, speak the truth in your culture and communities, and speak the truth to our legislatures.
01:16:13
Speak the truth, image of God, you shall not murder. Make it about the truth of God. Let's never compromise, let's not pretend neutrality, and let's trust
01:16:23
God with the results. Thank you for watching The Dividing Line. This show has blessed my life and changed my life in many ways.
01:16:32
I hope it continues to do it and God gives Rich and Dr. White many, many more years of this.
01:16:39
And thank you guys for having me and let me hijack the show today. I will be back on Thursday with another topic and hopefully we'll have a lot of fun, maybe play some videos.