February 18, 2021 Show with Dr. Joseph LoSardo on “A Call to Servant Leadership”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 18th day of February 2021 and I like many in the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience were very saddened to hear about the death of Rush Limbaugh yesterday and he has certainly been an inspiration to many people involved in radio, especially those who shared his conservative views on many issues and we who are involved in radio could only dream to develop the gifts that he possessed and the loving embrace that he received from so many millions of people in his audience, the loyal, devoted, faithful listeners that he had developed over the years and it is truly sad but it is such a blessing to know that he made very credible professions of faith in the

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Lord Jesus Christ which gives me the utmost of confidence that he is now spending an eternity with that Lord God Savior and King and remember folks and I'm sure that most of our listeners are fully aware of this but being conservative doesn't get you into heaven, being pro -life doesn't get you into heaven and being correct on many political and social and moral issues does not get you into heaven, you need to be covered by the blood of Christ and be putting all of your trust in his death and burial and resurrection in order to have his righteousness imputed to you and that's the only way that any of us will enter into glory so I trust that Rush Limbaugh will be somebody that we meet up there in glory when that day comes for us and we ask of you to pray for the

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Limbaugh family at this time and may Rush's brother David who is a believer minister greatly to the remainder of the family especially those who are not yet truly believers in the

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Lord Jesus Christ but today we have a guest that I haven't had on in quite a long time it's been far too long it seems every time

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I approached him with an invitation something providentially was going on in his life that prevented him from accepting my invitation and the most recent thing was that he had

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COVID which had him shut down for a while but I am so delighted that I finally got word from my guest today

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Dr. Joseph Lissardo that he can join us today as my guest on Iron Sherpa Zion radio he is a former elder in a large charismatic messianic congregation in New Jersey who earned his

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PhD in molecular biology of cancer at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the

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Bronx New York where he remained as a researcher until answering the call to ministry and planting a reformed

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Baptist congregation which is also a cessationist congregation bread of life fellowship in Wayne New Jersey and today we are going we are going to be addressing the theme a call to servant leadership it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sherpa Zion radio after a long absence

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Dr. Joe Lissardo to be with you I know it's been it's been hard it's gotta be a three years at least

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I think maybe even more it's good to be here yeah it's good to be here that's good to have you here

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I should say as well brother and why don't you tell our listeners about bread of life fellowship in Wayne New Jersey fellowship is in Wayne New Jersey which is in Passaic County in North Jersey and we are a congregation of believers in the reformed doctrines the doctrines of grace we come together every

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Sunday at noon and have been blessed in as far as our being able to meet even amidst all the

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COVID restrictions because we have quite a large gym so with the capacity number of the gym we easily are able to meet together without having to have multiple services or anything like that so that's been a real blessing for us we're at the 1559

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Hamburg turnpike in Wayne New Jersey and again we meet at noon on Sundays hey well if anybody wants further information about bread of life fellowship in Wayne New Jersey where dr.

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Joe Lissardo is the pastor go to BOL fellowship org BOL for bread of life fellowship org

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BOL fellowship org and I hope to remember to announce that later well this is quite an interesting topic that you have requested that we discussed today a call to servant leadership to some folks that might even sound oxymoronic obviously if it does sound oxymoronic to folks they haven't really studied the life of Jesus Christ very well because he was obviously the perfect the ideal the premier servant leader that all those who are in leadership should espouse to be like in fact we all as Christians should espouse to be like Jesus Christ no matter what our role or status or function in the body of Christ is but tell us specifically what compelled you to want to discuss this today well

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I think it's something that is an important thing for us to consider especially myself being a pastor something that comes up from time to time what is my responsibility and my role towards the congregation and you know we live in a in a culture that just exalts self and exalts specific gifting to the point where it just it's more resembles the world than it does the teachings of Jesus Jesus specifically said when he washed his disciples feet on the evening of that Passover that last

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Passover that he said I do this for you as an example

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I do and you ought to do likewise he says blessed are you if you do these things so so we have a responsibility as leaders in the

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Christian community to lead the way that Jesus set the example for us and Jesus taught very clearly on the subject of leadership and greatness and what true greatness is so when a man is believes he has been given the call by God to enter into specifically a leadership position in the church although as I hinted at this information today really it surpasses the limitations of just pastoral and diaconate roles in the body of Christ but for the sake of our time restraints here today we will primarily be focusing on church leaders and even power church leaders for that matter what are the specific elements that a man should be prepared to have a part of his life and character have as a part of his his ministry hallmarks things that will make those that know him see his servant characteristics as being something that are vivid or clear or vibrant are things that when they describe these leaders to others perhaps not even in the presence of these leaders these qualities of a servant may bubble up out of them as they joyfully describe these leaders if they are actually fulfilling that role of servant leadership what would be some things that would set apart a servant leader from someone else who may have leadership qualifications but someone might be hard -pressed to call him a servant leader well

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I would say that we need to examine and see the way that Jesus taught and led by example himself there was the example of where one day mod that would be the mother of James and John came and thought that greatness was going to be manifested by the best seats in the kingdom she wanted her son to have the best seats next to Jesus in the kingdom and Jesus took that opportunity to teach about the very different nature of leadership in Matthew chapter 20 when she comes to him and he says what do you want she says

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I want my two sons to sit at your right hand at your left so there's an indication there that that greatness in the kingdom or leadership in the kingdom is associated with a seat of honor this is something that the scripture warns of be careful of taking the seats of honor rather you know sitting in a sense sit in the back and until you're invited up to the front well the same way

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Jesus says you don't even know what you're asking and later on when the rest of the disciples kind of hear this conversation they become indignant and that's when

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Jesus teaches about the difference between worldly leaders and and godly leaders and he says you know that the ruler this is in Matthew 20 verses 25 to 28 he says you know that the rulers of the

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Gentiles lorded over them and their great ones exercise authority over them but then he says it shall not be so among you but whoever would be great among you must be your servant whoever would be first among you must be your slave and then he uses himself as an example and he says even as the

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Son of Man came not to be served but to serve yet today leadership and greatness when people think about fame and or when they think about leadership and greatness they think about fame they point to specific titles the church size or the church income or the number of Twitter followers you have or podcast rankings or big book deals with with major publishers and these are sure signs of greatness in leadership there seems to be on the part of humanity this appetite this insatiable appetite of this kind affirmation and it comes out even even in social media when we look at how many likes we have or how many friends we have on on Facebook and this just kind of feeds in to pride especially among young pastors or pastor or those who are studying in seminaries to be a pastor we want to be sure that as we're training these young people that it's not in the ways of the world it's not about climbing ladders of success where they finally feel they've arrived with a certain number of followers or they reach the top job of senior pastor or pastor of preaching or pastor of vision you know this idea finally you know

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I could live my life and I can get the microphone in my hand that I can tell everyone else how to live their life you know there's quite a difference between that and the kind of leadership that Jesus exemplified in his life as well as taught in his teaching that kind of attitude actually is dangerous because if you're in a place where you only want to hold the microphone so that you can have influence in each other in another person's life it could be very dangerous the scripture says especially if pastors that we're going to give an account for the souls we lead and that's quite a frightening prospect it's not something you you know you march into or climb up into without counting the cost but when we understand the greatness that Jesus defines it's a whole different thing it's nothing but the greatness or the leadership that Jesus described is not one that pleases the flesh at all in Matthew 23 11 he said the greatest among you shall be your servant and servant is actually a word to describe leaders more than the word leader is in the

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New Testament we find the word servant God ministers most often described as servants not leaders in fact isn't the word deacon and New Testament Greek Koine Greek actually mean servants yes yes absolutely and yet they are considered leaders in the church of course you and I believe in a polity that has only two offices elder which is the same as a pastor and even the same according to different translations it's the same thing as a bishop or an overseer although we don't typically use those words and deacon is the second and yet both are different levels of leadership in the church and yet the very word for the deaconate is a servant it's right quite inciting and it's not to say

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Chris is not to say that leadership is not important in the functioning of the body of Christ I mean even even that word that you mentioned

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Episcopal or or overseer there is a role of oversight that pastors have but leadership is never seen as a title but rather more seen as a service to the body of Christ now one of the things that is a touchy issue and I might even offend people some people that are listening but there seems to be an uncomfortable balance that needs to be made in the body of Christ where on the one hand a man who views himself as a servant leader should not have such a proud and lofty view of himself that he refuses to pick up a mop and clean a bathroom he refuses to mow the church lawn and things like that but at the same time if a church if it's large enough to have a deaconate one might say that he shouldn't be taking away from other infinitely more important roles that he has that involve caring for the flock he shouldn't be doing those things so there is a there is a

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I think a tension there that a church make be making sure whenever it is financially possible and whenever it is possible involving the number of people and able -bodied men are in a church they should be making sure that although your pastor is not too high and mighty and lofty to mow a lawn if it is at all possible for him to be using his time far more often and a far more a far greater percentage of his time to studying to preparing for sermons to visiting the sick and those things that are truly a part of a pastoral position that are not typically things that can be done by any member of the church of course every member is called to visit the sick and so on but there is a unique right there's a unique place for a pastor doing that exactly exactly in Ephesians 4 11 and 12

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Paul gives the role of the shepherds and the teachers in the church or the pastor teachers to equip the

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Saints for the work of the ministry and this has to be the priority of the pastor to equip the

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Saints we see it by example in the book of Acts where where the Apostles are every day in the temple and from house to house teaching and preaching about Jesus Christ and then we see also by example in this balance to lend balance in Acts chapter 6 where the disciples are increasing in number and there's this complaint that comes against the

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Hebrews that their widows are being neglected so the

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Apostles gathered together the disciples and they say in Acts 6 verse 2 they say it's not right that we should give up preaching the

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Word of God to serve table now that immediately we think well wait a minute you just talked about serving isn't it saying that that are you saying that it's better to preach the

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Word than to serve tables well not at all it has to do with roles and it has to do with a specific a specific purpose the the

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Apostles were called to go and preach the Word so as a result of that the church gathers together and they pick out seven men of good repute full of the

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Holy Spirit wisdom and they are they then appoint this this responsibility of service to these seven men and the

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Apostles then can devote themselves to prayer and the ministry of the Word we this is often applied and assumed to apply to pastors and deacons although nowhere are these seven men referred to specifically as deacons nor are pastors

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Apostles you have to be careful of that one -to -one correlation there but there is a prototypical example there that leaders in the church have of prioritizing the ministry of the

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Word ministry of the Word includes preaching public preaching as well as private discipleship and things of that nature equipping the

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Saints through public and private instruction of the Word not merely preaching from the pulpit but also making disciples of others training faithful men things of that nature now if you and I are going to be honest we have been

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Reformed Baptists long enough to know that although we would never dare to want to broad brush our own people and there are many many many fine examples of humble servant leaders who are

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Reformed Baptist pastors and I would even include my own at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle Pennsylvania and I'm not just saying that because I'm afraid of being put on a church discipline or but you and I know that unfortunately and I think and I could be wrong but I think things in this area have nationwide improved for the better dramatically over the years because of certain unfortunate incidents that have occurred many incidences that have occurred in churches over the last few decades that have become infamous and notorious involving extremely heavy -handed authoritarian elder rule that might even be rightly nicknamed a dictatorship even though I think that the things have improved don't you think that we who are

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Reformed have to really put the spotlight on ourselves when it comes to either repenting of or the prevention of leaders who do not demonstrate the qualities and the characteristics of servants oh absolutely there needs to be accountability in this area and I think it goes it's broader than just Reformed Baptist at least in the risk well in most

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Reformed Baptist churches although there might be certain personalities that kind of rise to the top most

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Reformed Baptist churches do have at least a plurality of elders so there should there ought to be some internal accountability many

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Reformed Baptist churches are also congregational so there's also the the role and function of the congregation and keeping the elders accountable but if you go back a generation you look back even in the fundamentalism you see the rise of the single pastor the

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Moses model the unaccountable leader who's who's the top of the pyramid you know he has his his couple of guys his assistants who he works with and then you know there's kind of this trickle -down and and the congregants never really even get to know the pastor in some of these megachurches that's a that's a very dangerous model and anytime regardless someone calls themselves

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Reformed or Calvinistic or whatever it's a we do

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I think we if we follow that model we're taking a bad page out of fundamentalism that that we do we need to really repent of and change and that's something that I think still sticks in some

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Baptist circles. Yes and might I quickly add that I believe you know some of the same men that I know that are not a part of the stereotype of independent fundamentalist

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Baptists where you have a one -man pastor polity that has become like a dictatorship now they may have a one -man pastor polity with only deacons below them but there have been some

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I'm just gonna say a name who so beautifully I think fits this realm or this description of servant leader and that would be

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Vinnie Sawyer do you know Vinnie? No I don't. Oh okay for some reason I thought you knew Vinnie.

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Vinnie used to know he used to be the pastor of Faith Baptist Church in Corona Queens New York and now he is he's pastoring in Victory Baptist Church in Florida and I can't remember the city right at this moment but what a humble servant and precious man of God he is from the fundamentalist background and even having as far as I know

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I have I have heard of him yes I was recently at a meeting in Queens and his name actually came up now that you mentioned it yes there was a fundamental

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Baptist Church in Corona Queens. What was his name? Vinnie Sawyer? That's right. Yeah in Corona and now he's in Florida you say.

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Yeah I can't remember the city but it's a Victory Victory Baptist Church I just thought I'd throw that in there because I don't want us to be guilty of broad -brushing anybody.

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Right. But we have to go to our first break right now and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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This is Chris Armisen. If you've just tuned in today, our guest today for the full two hours of the program is

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Dr. Joseph Lozado, who is pastor of Bread of Life Fellowship of Wayne, New Jersey, a

39:57

Reformed Baptist congregation. And we are addressing a call to servant leadership.

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If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is

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ChrisArmisen at gmail .com. ChrisArmisen at gmail .com.

40:15

And please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

40:22

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

40:27

And Dr. Joe, we have a listener in Ponoka, Alberta, Canada.

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His name is Sikke Lee, S -I -K -K -E -L -E -E.

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And he has a question that I have to enlarge because the font on his email is so small.

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Let's see here. He says, Howdy, brothers. Could you also explain how servant -like leadership is balanced with a shepherd -like leader that may have to give a proverbial whack to a sheep here or there, or guarding against wolves and or false doctrine?

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Suppose that my question boils down to, can a leader be too servant -like?

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Huh. I will have you answer that first, but my gut reaction is he can't be too servant -like, but he can be too weak, which are not the same thing.

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But anyway. Right. Right. And I think that's the answer. Even when the sheep need a whack, you know, as he puts it, it's done from the heart of a servant.

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It's done from the heart's desire to want to see God's people grow.

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By the way, never use the term whack with a guy with a last name Losardo. From New Jersey, no less.

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And let's just let's just assume our Canadian brother is not speaking about physically smacking or hitting somebody.

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Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we don't make offers that you can't refuse.

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But we are, as shepherds, as Jesus said, the good shepherd of Psalm 23 has a rod and staff.

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That rod and staff have a purpose of at times getting the sheep in line, and they're not there to be used by the shepherd.

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But it's still in the role of serving the sheep. I think sometimes people mistake being a servant, and this is a problem, being a servant with being weak or being a servant with a lower class or a lower status.

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But Jesus said the exact opposite. He said whoever exalts himself will be humbled, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

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So the more that we are serving, the more that we understand that our ministry to the flock, including preaching the word, by the way, because in preaching what we're doing in essence is washing the feet of our church, where the church goes through the week, picks up the grime of the world.

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They come to church to hear the word, to be cleansed by the word, and you're doing and you're preaching a service to your community, to your church.

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So the idea of being a servant in no way excludes needing to use the tools of the shepherd or the oversight of the flock or leading the flock or teaching.

43:54

That's all part of our service to the flock. You know, immediately when you were talking, answering

44:03

Sicily's question, immediately popped into my head the movie.

44:09

I don't know if you've seen it, but I highly recommend anybody who has not seen it to see this movie,

44:15

Hacksaw Ridge. Are you familiar with Hacksaw Ridge? Yes. And Hacksaw Ridge, for those of you who are unfamiliar with it, is about the true military experiences of a true hero from history.

44:32

His name was Desmond Doss, D -O -S -S.

44:38

And he was a, in fact he still may be living, I'm not 100 % sure about that, but he was a

44:48

Seventh -day Adventist Christian. Now I'm not here to defend all the peculiarities of Seventh -day

44:54

Adventism, although I do believe there are true Christians in that group. But he was someone who was a pacifist and yet insisted on being enlisted in the armed forces when he was drafted.

45:15

And even though he refused to carry a gun, he wanted to serve as a medic. And he wound up doing some absolutely amazing, bordering on the miraculous in appearance anyway, feats of heroism at great risk to his life.

45:32

I mean, you've got to see the movie to comprehend what I'm speaking about. Absolutely amazing feats of heroism, carrying people on his back to safety one after another after another, and down a rope and down a cliff and so on.

45:50

And there were his fellow soldiers that fought alongside of him, the real individuals who were interviewed at the end of the movie to support everything that was depicted in the film.

46:09

So it wasn't just exaggeration for the sake of artistic license. But here was a man that was mocked and made fun of initially by those in boot camp who thought that he was basically a sissy.

46:23

You know, he was a coward and all that, because he had this conviction not to carry a firearm, but at the same time was insistent upon going into battle.

46:33

And this just popped into my head because even though certain qualities can defy stereotypes, that does not mean that if a person doesn't have this personality that reeks of machismo, that this person is less courageous, less heroic.

47:00

In fact, he may be even far more of those things than somebody who does reek of machismo, because that may be a cover for actual weakness and cowardice.

47:14

But do you follow where I'm coming from? Yeah, absolutely. who is growing up in a

47:49

Christian home and has interaction with unsaved young men his age is going to be mocked relentlessly if he refuses to have premarital sex with a girl and might even ironically be accused of being a homosexual when the

48:08

Christian himself believes that that's a damnable sin. So, I guess that's why that immediately popped in my head.

48:18

As the old saying goes, don't judge a book by its cover. But if you could, follow up on that.

48:27

Yeah, I think that's certainly a human example of ultimately pointing to Jesus himself.

48:35

In Matthew 20, 28, he talks about how the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve.

48:44

Then right after that he says, and to give his life a ransom for many. So the most heroic act in the history of humanity,

48:55

Jesus Christ going to the cross, giving his life as a ransom to save his people from their sins, is linked to Jesus' act of service as a suffering servant.

49:08

Isaiah chapter 53 describes this man of sorrows acquainted with grief.

49:15

But yet we also know that Jesus Christ is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. He's described in Revelation as having eyes of fire.

49:24

So there's no disconnect there. It's not like the Jewish people of old would think that, well, there's one

49:32

Messiah who is Ben -David, the king, and there is one Messiah who is

49:38

Ben -Joseph, the one who suffers. No, he's in one person. He's both the servant who came to serve, as well as the one who gave his life as a ransom for many.

49:49

And he's also coming back as a triumphant king. And he is, to this day, he is our king.

49:56

He's the king of his people. So we see that example in Jesus Christ.

50:05

By the way, this is not a question, but it is a listener comment from Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

50:19

He says, fun fact, did you know that the person who first turned me on to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio was

50:27

Pastor Joe Lasardo? Really? Yeah. Look who that is. Interesting.

50:34

You know, it's funny, Chris, as I was listening to your ads, I heard the one for Hope Reform, and it reminded me the very first time

50:41

I was on your show was with Pastor Jensen. And Jim Capo was your co -host that day.

50:48

We were over at that little... WNYG in Babylon, Long Island.

50:54

Yes, Babylon. Okay, I knew it was South Shore, Long Island. Yeah, yeah, Babylon, Long Island. Brought back great memories.

51:00

It might have been 2005, I'm thinking. Yeah, that was the first year I was airing.

51:06

That's when I launched the show. Wow. I've got to visit that building, see if it still exists and functions as a radio station.

51:15

I would love to bring a lot of memories back walking in there, if indeed they have kept things the way they were, because even though I didn't start hosting that show until 2005, their equipment was going back to the 1950s and 60s.

51:34

That was a real old -fashioned radio station. But we have to go to our midway break right now.

51:43

And if you have a question, please send it to chrisarmson at gmail .com. chrisarmson at gmail .com.

51:50

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

51:56

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Please be patient with us, because this is the longer than normal break we have in the middle of the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

52:07

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because they have to air their own public service announcements and other local things by the requirement of the

52:18

FCC to localize this program and all of their programming to Lake City, Florida, geographically.

52:26

So while they do that, we air our globally heard commercials. So I'm asking you to use this longer break wisely.

52:35

Please try to write down as much of the information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can, so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them.

52:44

That will further ensure that our advertisers will remain our advertisers, and that will further ensure that we, as a program, remain on the air, because we absolutely, positively depend upon our advertisers and the finances that come through their advertisements to exist.

53:05

If our advertisers all were to stop advertising with us, in fact, if just a few of them that are primary advertisers were to stop advertising, we would go off the air.

53:16

So please try to patronize our advertisers as much as possible. And when you can't actually patronize them, purchase their products, use their services, visit their churches, at least contact them with the information they provide in their ads, and thank them for advertising on Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio.

53:34

That will go a long way to know that you appreciate them and their use of their hard -earned money to keep us on the air.

53:43

And also, as I said, send in a question to Dr. Joe Losato, to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

53:49

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away, God willing, we are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Good to be back. Chris, I always enjoy our time here. I have to tell you, you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for more than 30 years.

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Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

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We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air, so I don't have to brag about myself.

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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

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I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

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I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

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Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net,

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that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the

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The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient Scripture, dissemination of Scripture, to provide tools equipping believers in Christian apologetics with evidence for the

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

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Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider

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Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big, penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

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Christian faith. I've always been happy to offer my own perspective, to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the

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This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

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And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift, or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris, if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,

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So, please, thank them if you love the show and want us to stay on the air.

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Thank them for sponsoring this show. And also, I want to thank you, the listeners, who have been purchasing many books from Solid -Ground -Books .com.

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where perhaps even particularly in recent weeks, the sales have gone through the roof from our audience, from people who specifically told him when placing their order that they heard about Solid -Ground -Books .com

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01:10:53

Before we return to Dr. Joe Lusardo, our guest today, and our discussion on a call to servant leadership,

01:11:01

I just have a couple of announcements to make. First of all, folks, going back to what

01:11:07

I was just saying about our urgent need for financial support, if you do love this show, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please help us financially.

01:11:18

If you can, go to www .ironsharpensironradio .com, click Support, then click

01:11:23

Click to Donate Now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion. If you prefer snail mail, there will be a physical address that appears on your screen when you click

01:11:35

Support at www .ironsharpensironradio .com where you can send checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:11:43

Also, if you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe, you don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that's at the very least compatible with what

01:11:55

I believe, then send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put Advertising in the subject line.

01:12:04

And I always try to remember to remind you every day, and I know this is repetitive and it's annoying perhaps to many of you, but I want you to remember that I don't want my listeners siphoning money away from their regular giving that they're accustomed to to their own local churches where they're members in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:12:25

In other words, don't curse your church financially by blessing us financially. Please don't do that.

01:12:33

And if you are really struggling to survive and giving to us would put you in further financial jeopardy or peril, at this point in life, hold off, because those two things are commands, clear commands of Scripture, providing for your church and providing for your family.

01:12:52

Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God and Scripture. But if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to provide for your church and family, you have extra money that's sitting in the bank collecting interest, or you have set aside for all the recreational reasons that you use some of your money, going to concerts, going to the movies, going out fine dining, or even going out to fast food places, going to Bible conferences, going to your favorite sporting events, now that some of them are beginning to take place publicly in the midst of COVID restriction hysteria.

01:13:38

Whatever it is that you use for recreational purposes, I am more than happy to take some of that money off your hands.

01:13:44

If you feel that, or should I say believe, that Iron Trump and Zion Radio is worthy of your donations.

01:13:53

If you really love the show, you don't want it to disappear, please help us out. Go to www .IronTrumpAndZionRadio .com,

01:13:59

click support, then click to donate now. Also, folks, if you are not a member of a solid, theologically sound,

01:14:07

Bible -believing church, I have lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the globe, and I may have a church or two right in your area on my list, no matter where you live.

01:14:22

I have helped people all over the world find churches, sometimes within a few minutes, from their own homes that are biblically faithful.

01:14:30

So please, if you are in that category of being in need of a church, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com and put

01:14:38

I need a church in the subject line. That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com, I need a church in the subject line.

01:14:46

And by the way, if you've already sent me an email like that, requesting a church, if you haven't heard back from me, it may have fallen through the cracks due to really more emails coming in on a daily basis from listeners.

01:15:03

I apologize to you for that. So please just send me another email to remind me that you need a church.

01:15:10

And if you've won a book or a Bible and you haven't heard from me, please let me know, because we've been getting a lot more emails than we used to get.

01:15:20

So please remind me. And if you have a question for Dr. Joe Losato on the call to servant leadership, send it in to chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

01:15:32

And by the way, Dr. Losato, Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, he beat me to the punch, but before I told him to send you an email, he said,

01:15:44

Dr. Losato helped me out with a survey I was conducting in grad school.

01:15:49

He answered the survey and sent a link to Iron Trumpet's Iron on which he had just appeared as a guest.

01:15:58

I don't know if that recalls. Yeah, it does. It's a glimmer of a vague memory.

01:16:06

Yes. Well, thanks again for, if you want to communicate, by the way, with Dr.

01:16:11

Losato, and that goes for everybody in the audience. He has been kind enough to provide his email address.

01:16:20

Info at BOL fellowship dot org. Info at BOL fellowship dot org.

01:16:27

If you, Ted, or anybody else would like to communicate with him after the show is over, that's not for questions for the show.

01:16:34

That email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail dot com. Chris Arnzen at gmail dot com.

01:16:41

We are back now with our discussion on a call to servant leadership. I'm assuming

01:16:47

I'm assuming that humility and the heart of a servant are such crucial elements of being an under -shepherd in Christ's church, an under -shepherd over Christ's flock.

01:17:04

I remember one time a brother, when I referred to him as an under -shepherd, he said,

01:17:10

Brother Chris, I'm a pastor. I said, yeah, that's what an under -shepherd is. He thought that was some kind of diminished title.

01:17:17

But if a person believes he has received a call for this very important function in the church, if he doesn't have the qualities of servanthood, shouldn't he either wait until, by God's grace, he develops them, or just look for another vocation?

01:17:43

Yeah, absolutely. 1 Peter 5 gives some qualifications or qualities, and it's done willingly.

01:17:53

You're shepherding your desire in your heart. He desires the office of an elder.

01:17:59

Desire is a good thing. So there's got to be a willingness and eagerness to can't do it for gain, he says.

01:18:06

Peter in 1 Peter 5, not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.

01:18:13

So there has to be the desire to serve God's people.

01:18:19

If that's not in the mix of your heart in wanting to be a pastor, then yes, find another job.

01:18:31

You could be a good, maybe motivational speaker. That might be a better job for you. Yeah, but if you're a good motivational speaker, teaching people to be servants, there's got to be an element of...

01:18:46

I think the world has enough proud, arrogant, braggadocious people being further motivated.

01:18:56

I've been to some of these self -help lectures.

01:19:04

In fact, some of them were required of me as a salesperson when

01:19:09

I worked for the largest Christian radio network on the planet Earth. And sometimes the things that we were being told were absolutely atrocious and non -Christian.

01:19:23

Things like, don't hang out with downers. If people are depressed and constantly wanting and complaining about their struggles in life, just take them off of your friend list.

01:19:38

Get them out of your life. That kind of thing. Now obviously, we don't want people to remain perpetually complaining about things, but at the same time, if anybody needs the love of Christ and the compassion of Christ, it's people who are struggling with something that leads them to behave that way.

01:19:54

Am I right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, amen. Absolutely. So tell us some of the other specific ways, tangible ways, that those listening who might be already in the position of being a leader, a pastor, a deacon, or perhaps they have a church polity where they designate elders in a different category.

01:20:20

There's all kinds of things that churches come up with these days. Shepherd board and things that aren't really found in the scripture.

01:20:28

And I apologize if I'm hurting the feelings of anybody listening. But what tangibly can they do if they may be sitting here and they may be convicted by what you're saying, what can they tangibly add to their routines in life that would make them more deserving of being described as a servant leader?

01:20:56

I'd say it begins with a mindset. We kind of have to go into this understanding that Jesus' model of washing feet is what prepares a leader to lead because the church can't get away with the kind of thing,

01:21:15

Chris, that they told you at the radio station because churches are messy places.

01:21:24

Well, actually, that wasn't the radio station. It was one of those motivational speaker events. Motivational, yeah, yeah.

01:21:31

It just doesn't work. The church is... There's a reason that the scripture describes

01:21:39

God's people as sheep. Sheep are not the cleanest of animals.

01:21:45

They need a shepherd. They need to be led. Church leadership is a messy thing, and as much as we would like it not to be so, our congregations are not always going to be the well -behaved, submissive congregations that let us just kind of go on with our own plans and just go on and on.

01:22:06

And I know what it's like. You get an email from an upset member.

01:22:11

It's Friday. You're in the middle of your sermon preparation, and that email kind of interrupts that.

01:22:17

You wish that those kind of things wouldn't happen, but they will, and they do, and pastors need to be prepared for these kinds of things.

01:22:26

If we go into ministry with the expectation of being that we're nothing more than unprofitable servants charged with washing the dirty feet of our members, then it'll make even the difficult members...

01:22:43

We'll see the difficult members as sheep, and it changes our whole philosophy.

01:22:52

And I think that's really what we need. Rather than seeing specific things, it's going to vary based on the size of your church.

01:22:59

Like you mentioned, if you have a large church, you're not going to see the pastor setting up chairs or out in the parking lot bringing in traffic or shoveling or whatever.

01:23:12

If you have a smaller church, you might have to do those kinds of things. So it's going to vary, but I think if the mindset that we have going in is that my main purpose here is to serve these people, even our preaching then becomes less about me having influence in a person's life, but more about, hey, this member of the congregation needs to be washed with the

01:23:37

Word. There was a great blog, which I would recommend, by Kosti Inn, called

01:23:45

Chasing a Title or Carrying a Towel. Wow. Yeah, it's real good.

01:23:52

I'd recommend it. Maybe I've got to have Kosti back on the show to discuss that.

01:23:58

He's been a guest on my program. Yeah, it was excellent. For those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with that name,

01:24:05

Kosti Inn is the nephew of the notorious charlatan

01:24:10

Benny Hinn, the Word of Faith so -called healer. And Kosti has thankfully repented of the

01:24:20

Word of Faith heresies, and he is now in the pastoral ministry of a

01:24:26

Reformed and Baptistic and Cessationist congregation in Arizona. So he's got a remarkable story to tell, and he would not be at all insulted by me describing his uncle that way because he is probably even more blunt about the issue than I am.

01:24:47

He spends much of his time exposing the heresies of his own uncle and everybody in that ilk.

01:24:52

But anyway, I'm sorry I interrupted you there. That's all right. It lends some context to also why he's writing what he's writing because he's in the midst of the kind of ministry that exalted men.

01:25:06

So his blog is called Chasing a Title or Carrying a Towel.

01:25:12

And among what he writes, about a five -minute read, it's real rich and a blessing. He says, you don't need to see your impact to have an impact.

01:25:23

And he writes about John the Baptist who was locked away in prison. I think if John the

01:25:30

Baptist were alive today, we would say he would have the greatest Twitter following ever.

01:25:37

But yet he was content. He preached to many, and he had quite a following.

01:25:44

But yet he was content to say, I must decrease and he must increase. So he goes on, he says,

01:25:52

John the Baptist was locked in prison waiting for his head to roll while Jesus, the Jesus he got to baptize, was adding disciples by the minute.

01:26:03

Greatness is giving up what you could do for what you must do.

01:26:10

And that's important that we understand that, that we're there to serve, whether someone is watching or not, whether someone is washing our feet or not.

01:26:21

That's really what our calling is as leaders in the church. And that's really what ultimately what

01:26:26

Jesus said greatness is, is stooping down, grabbing the towel, washing the disciples' feet and proverbially serving the people that we're given charge over.

01:26:42

We have an anonymous listener who says, I don't mean to be rude, and I hope this isn't off the subject, but I keep hearing you

01:26:51

Reformed Baptists talk about the example that Jesus gave as in washing the feet of his disciples.

01:26:58

I don't know of any Calvinists who do this other than the primitive Baptists. I only see this typically being practiced among the

01:27:08

Wesleyan churches that I am very much familiar with. I guess he's talking about literally?

01:27:14

Yes. That is an ordinance of some churches. He is, or she,

01:27:20

I don't know which, is correct to say that the primitive Baptists do it. I don't want to broad brush, but primitive

01:27:28

Baptists, although they profess to be Calvinistic, have some very hyper -Calvinistic views on a number of things, and actually, believe it or not, hypo -Calvinist views on some other things, like they don't believe that God is in sovereign control over all things that occur, but they have a tendency towards hyper -Calvinist soteriology, but that's not what we're talking about today.

01:27:55

Why don't we do... Well, I mean, it can be done. I mean, there's nothing...

01:28:01

I was actually at a wedding once where the bride and groom literally took out a basin and towel and literally washed one another's feet.

01:28:10

But Jesus is at the Last Supper. What he's doing is showing an example of being a servant.

01:28:19

He says, even after he does it, I mean, he shocks everyone by doing this, but this is not something that was typical on a

01:28:27

Passover meal. They're washing, little ceremonial -type washings where they would wash their hands.

01:28:33

But what Jesus does is he takes this out of the realm of ceremony completely So if we just follow the ceremony of foot washing as a part from the heart, it really is against what

01:28:49

Jesus is doing. He takes it... The ceremony was to dip your hands in a bowl and then wipe it on a towel.

01:28:58

But Jesus takes the bowl and he shocks the disciples. He goes up to them. He leans down, and he takes the feet of the disciples.

01:29:06

So much so, Peter says, Don't do this, Lord. You know, it's such a humiliating act. Don't do this,

01:29:12

Lord. And then he gets up and he takes the opportunity to teach. And he says in John 13, he says,

01:29:18

If you understand what I've just done, you call me teacher and you call me Lord, and that's right.

01:29:24

But he says, If then I, your Lord and teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash one another's feet.

01:29:31

For I've given you this as an example that you should do just as I have done. Truly, he says in verse 16,

01:29:39

I say to you, A servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

01:29:45

If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. So it's not merely about the literal washing of feet.

01:29:53

I would imagine in such a ceremony, most people would probably prepare themselves by washing their feet at home so that they wouldn't be embarrassed when it came to the literal physical foot washing.

01:30:08

And foot washing then could be just a ceremony. But the kind of thing that Jesus is teaching here is what great leadership is, is being a servant in every area.

01:30:22

Yeah, I've heard... How about... Yeah. Well, finish your thought. I don't want to have you lose your train of thought.

01:30:28

No, no, go ahead. I have been told that foot washing was a common thing for servants to do in that geographical region of the planet, especially in that day and age, because people were walking around with sandals in the desert and the dirt.

01:30:48

But the thing that was remarkable and stunning was that someone of Jesus's stature, at least in the minds of those who were his disciples, obviously he didn't have a high stature in the minds of those who were his enemies.

01:31:02

But for someone to be viewed as the Messiah or to be viewed as their spiritual leader to be doing this, that was what was shocking.

01:31:13

And I've also been told, and you could agree or disagree and let me know, that those that do it today, there is no cultural significance that resembles that in the foot washing of a present -day church.

01:31:33

In other words, like you were just basically hinting at, somebody in their clean suit takes off his shoes and clean socks and has somebody washing his clean feet, that there is no cultural ramification to that that would actually involve humbling somebody that is washing the feet.

01:31:56

Right. Right, exactly. But there are parallels that we can think of. Someone walks in and they have their coat and you take their coat and hang it for them on the hanger.

01:32:11

I'm sure there are others that we can think of where we're genuinely taking on the role of a servant for the other individual.

01:32:20

But it really comes down to it's the heart of service that we're talking about here.

01:32:26

Do I do what I do as a pastor? What's the motivation for what

01:32:32

I do as a pastor? Is it that I might increase, or is it to see someone else increase, like John the

01:32:42

Baptist did with Jesus? And this is a particular challenge for those that are particularly gifted in public preaching ministry.

01:32:50

If you're a gifted preacher or teacher of the word, where there's even public pressure to want to exalt certain gifts of rhetoric, it requires on the individual's part a conscientious effort to be intentional about resisting that.

01:33:13

Even at times taking on a backseat, taking on obscurity at times, supporting another person's ministry for the sake of the kingdom.

01:33:24

I think of church planting as an example of this. The modern way of thinking is you grow your church as large as you can.

01:33:34

The more people that hear your preaching, the more people you influence, the better it is for the kingdom to grow. But church planting, taking a portion of the church that God has placed under your care and sending them out with another pastor is an example of this.

01:33:56

Allowing people in your congregation who may be less gifted than you as a preacher, even possibly members,

01:34:05

I know every church has different rules and regulations when that goes, but allowing them a place in the pulpit or a place to teach in Sunday school so that they can grow.

01:34:16

All of this is about growing the kingdom of God. If we can't do that, then we're in a sense saying,

01:34:22

I must increase. And then we're in danger where in any place where I must increase, we're in danger of Christ decreasing.

01:34:32

We're also in danger of unintentionally creating idolaters in our churches because people follow men.

01:34:40

Human beings have a propensity to follow men and follow gifted men in particular.

01:34:46

So there's got to be an intentionality to this where we are, as God gifts us, we are handing off those gifts and encouraging and training others.

01:35:01

Otherwise, we'll grow to be in our 60s, 70s, or 80s and it won't be a mentor.

01:35:08

I mean, I'm sorry, we would not have mentored anyone. We wouldn't have anyone to take over when we go.

01:35:16

So we've got to be careful, especially with young people too, coming out of seminaries, with youth comes pride.

01:35:23

And if they're placed into those positions too quickly or without first serving, you have the potential there of feeding pride and certainly one thing we don't need is our pride to be fed.

01:35:36

Do you think that included in this conversation needs to be the caution that Christians need to have when partaking in genuine liberties that for right or wrong reasons, the areas of liberty are viewed by others as either sin or just plain wrong, et cetera.

01:36:09

We have to be careful. I'll give you an example. In reform circles, there are some unique denominations like the

01:36:19

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America that has an abstinence rule, at least for the leaders, they don't believe in the consumption of alcohol in any amount.

01:36:31

But most Reformed people believe it is a liberty. As long as somebody isn't getting drunk, it is considered a liberty to socially drink and to socially drink anything, whether it's hard liquor or wine or beer.

01:36:48

People like me who had a reputation of being scandalously and sinfully drunk after having backslidden, after 18 years of sobriety, after becoming a

01:37:04

Christian, I know that I could never touch alcohol again. It would just be totally wrong to not only tempt myself to fall back into that wickedness, but it would also be just a horrible thing for people to witness if they knew my background.

01:37:21

The thing that has troubled me, I know I'm probably going to offend a lot of my Reformed brethren, but it has troubled me for years watching in social media and even seeing on the websites of certain

01:37:36

Reformed ministries and churches people flaunting their liberty to drink alcohol and to talk about it excessively and adoringly.

01:37:48

And I cannot help but get the impression that this is being done on purpose to insult fundamentalists and others that have a different view of that liberty than the person who drinks does.

01:38:07

And by the way, folks, I'm not saying I don't believe Christians have a liberty to moderately consume alcohol.

01:38:13

I do believe they do. I just know I don't. And I don't think that anybody who has had a history of a problem with it should ever partake in it again.

01:38:22

It's not worth it. But am I making sense here? Is the including this in the discussion appropriate?

01:38:31

Oh yeah, absolutely. One of the great ways, not specific for leaders, but for anyone in the

01:38:38

Christian community, to not put up an unnecessary stumbling block before your brothers for whom

01:38:45

Christ died in 1 Corinthians 8. Verse 11, it says,

01:38:51

For through your knowledge the one who is weak is ruined, the brother or sister for whose sake

01:38:58

Christ died. If you are flaunting your freedom, if God gave you a freedom,

01:39:04

I would say if God gave you a freedom, you partake of that freedom. But you do it privately, especially in areas where the

01:39:14

Church has historically differed over. For example, alcohol, smoking, things of that nature.

01:39:23

And we all know great Reformed pastors and preachers in the past who smoked cigars, for example.

01:39:33

But, you know, there are brethren for whom Christ died who feel that...

01:39:39

Maybe we can argue they're misinterpreting the Scriptures, your body is a temple of the

01:39:45

Holy Spirit, and I'd say they are misinterpreting those Scriptures, but nevertheless, they're my brother or sister, and I'm not going to flaunt a freedom that I might have on social media, no less.

01:39:57

Because think of the broadness of that audience that you have there on social media. And it's interesting, as one who brought shame upon the body of Christ with my public drunkenness in the sight of unbelievers, it's interesting how nearly universally the unregenerate and the non -Christian, or the nominal

01:40:21

Christian, you know, people who were born and raised in some kind of professed Christian denomination but don't even attend church or anything, there is an idea that seems to be almost universal, that those who are truly born again, those who are true

01:40:38

Christians, don't do that. You know, and it's an unnecessary stumbling block and a shock to these people, who are, because they view you as nothing less than a hypocrite.

01:40:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we ought to be concerned, not so much for being mislabeled as a hypocrite, but more so for violating or ruining the conscience of the weaker brother in those situations.

01:41:16

We don't want to be a stumbling block to the weak. And that certainly is a way that we serve one another.

01:41:24

Maybe I said that grammatically incorrectly. Nothing more than a hypocrite. Right. Well, we have to go to our final break.

01:41:32

It's going to be a much more brief break than the other breaks, but if you have a question, please send it in immediately because we are rapidly running out of time.

01:41:40

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:41:52

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:41:58

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Joe Lozado after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen and I wanted to clarify why I brought up being careful about flaunting your liberty in context of our theme today about being a servant leader.

01:53:02

When you do something like that, you're not putting what is best for others as a priority.

01:53:08

You're putting your own things that you love doing that may offend some, even if it's wrong that it offends them.

01:53:20

The Apostle Paul basically was saying in his day that there was nothing innately wrong with eating meat that was sacrificed to an idol, but he would never do it if it made a brother stumble.

01:53:32

That was my whole point about servant leadership. We shouldn't view too highly our privileges and so on to the point where it does harm to others.

01:53:44

That leads me to another thing I think that ties into this subject, Dr. Joe. The area of church discipline.

01:53:53

I can never thank my pastors, my former pastors, enough for placing me under church discipline when

01:54:02

I wandered back into the serious and even damnable sin of drunkenness, habitual drunkenness.

01:54:10

There are many churches in modern evangelicalism today that out of a fear of looking like they are authoritarian, or perhaps they just don't want to lose members, they don't want to have their tithes and offerings diminish from people who leave those churches.

01:54:32

There could be a whole lot of reasons, but there are leaders that don't conduct church discipline at all.

01:54:40

At the same time, those from our backgrounds, those that are Reformed, they may be too quick to discipline people that are being disciplined over reasons that aren't even biblical.

01:54:55

This servant leader needs to be in the minds of both those extremes because you are not serving or helping anyone when you're not disciplining them when it's necessary.

01:55:09

I might be dead if I wasn't under church discipline because of the danger of what

01:55:15

I was doing. At the same time, you don't want to be harsh and proud and so on, and authoritarian when you discipline.

01:55:26

If you could just take it up from there. I think you just said it very well,

01:55:32

Chris. There's a balance. Unfortunately, like anything, people tend toward the pendulum, one extreme or the other.

01:55:42

Church discipline is a gift that God gives to the church for the holiness of the church and for the repentance of individuals.

01:55:52

If you're keeping in mind that you are there to serve the church community and serve the individual in that church, you'll have a tremendous amount of patience, but you'll take the hard step of church discipline when it's necessary because that's what serving that individual requires.

01:56:11

Like you said, in your situation, you could have been dead had it not taken place. And God used men who took that difficult step, and it's not easy to go through a church discipline issue.

01:56:25

It affects the whole church, but it's part of serving both the community as well as the individual.

01:56:34

And I have to say this as well, and it may offend people, but shame on you if you are a pastor or a leader in a church where you are accepting runaways, as it were, for lack of a better term.

01:56:49

People who flee a church where they've been under discipline legitimately, not in a cult or something.

01:56:55

They are legitimately under discipline. They flee from one church to another, and they are welcomed with open arms, perhaps just because they want more seats filled in their churches, or they want that extra money in their tithing plates, collection plates.

01:57:13

But it is a real serious problem that exists. When pastors are fully aware of the background of the person who has fled one church and been welcomed with open arms,

01:57:26

I even know of a situation where a man was excommunicated and then welcomed into the eldership of another church that was fully aware of all the circumstances.

01:57:37

Wow. Yeah, I mean, you may disagree with the way another church handled a situation, but you'd better be absolutely sure that that disciplinary action was not done properly before you start receiving members, let alone elders.

01:57:58

You're asking for trouble when you do things like that. Do you have a minute of summary that you could provide over this topic that you most want etched on the hearts and minds of our listeners today?

01:58:09

Sure, sure. In Matthew 23, 12, Jesus said, whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

01:58:20

You have the future tense there with the reflexive pronoun, humbled himself.

01:58:25

So it creates a middle voice. It's something that we are called to do for ourselves, humble ourselves.

01:58:34

The way up, very different from the way of the world. The way up is by decreasing, is what

01:58:39

Jesus said. He who humbles himself will be exalted. This idea is completely otherworldly, completely alien from the ways of this world.

01:58:50

And we need to understand, not be squeezed into the mold of thinking the way the world thinks of leadership.

01:58:57

And truly take the way of Jesus Christ who humbled himself and himself was exalted.

01:59:04

And that's the path that we're called to take. Ultimately, we are waiting to hear those wonderful, glorious words that every

01:59:10

Christian is waiting to hear. Well done, good and faithful what? Servant. So that's all of us.

01:59:18

We're all unprofitable servants at the end of the day. May we live that out. Amen. And read the life of Robert Murray McShane, such a fine example of this, who died at a very young age, 29 years old.

01:59:32

But I want to just repeat your website. It's BOLFellowship .org

01:59:38

B -O -L -Fellowship .org and Dr. LoSardo's email address is info at B -O -L -Fellowship .org

01:59:45

I want to thank you so much for being such a superb guest Dr. Jill LoSardo. I look forward to your return on many occasions.

01:59:52

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.