February 18, 2021 Show with Dr. Joseph LoSardo on “A Call to Servant Leadership”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living

on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this

18th day of February 2021.

And I, like many in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience, were very saddened to hear

about the death of Rush Limbaugh yesterday.

And he has certainly been an inspiration to many people involved in

radio, especially those who shared his conservative views on many issues.

And we who are involved in radio could only dream to develop

the gifts that he possessed and the loving

embrace that he received from so many millions of people in his audience,

the loyal, devoted, faithful listeners that he had developed over the years.

And it is truly sad, but it is such a blessing to know that he made

very credible professions of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, which gives

me the utmost of confidence that he is now spending an eternity

with that Lord God Savior and King.

And remember, folks, and I'm sure that most of our listeners are fully aware of this,

but being conservative doesn't get you into heaven.

Being pro -life doesn't get you into heaven.

And being correct on many political and social and moral issues does not get you into

heaven.

You need to be covered by the blood of Christ and be putting all of your trust

in his death and burial and resurrection in order to have

his righteousness imputed to you.

And that's the only way that any of us will enter into glory.

So I trust that Rush Limbaugh will be somebody that we

meet up there in glory when that day comes for us.

And we ask of you to pray for the Limbaugh family at this time, and may

Rush's brother, David, who is a believer, minister greatly to the remainder of the family,

especially those who are not yet truly believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

But today we have a guest that I haven't had on in quite a long time.

It's been far too long.

It seems every time I approached him with an invitation, something providentially was going on in his

life that prevented him from accepting my invitation.

And the most recent thing was that he had COVID, which had him shut down for a while.

But I am so delighted that I finally got word from my guest today, Dr.

Joseph LoSardo, that he can join us today as my guest on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.

He is a former elder in a large charismatic messianic congregation in New Jersey,

who earned his PhD in molecular biology of cancer at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the Bronx,

New York, where he remained as a researcher until answering the call to ministry

and planting a Reformed Baptist congregation, which is also a cessationist

congregation, Bread of Life Fellowship in Wayne, New Jersey.

And today we are going to be addressing the theme, A Call to Servant Leadership.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio after a long absence, Dr. Joe LoSardo.

It's good to be with you.

I know it's been, it's been hard.

It's got to be three years at least.

Yeah, it's good to be here.

It's good to have you here, I should say, as well, brother.

And why don't you tell our listeners about Bread of Life Fellowship in Wayne, New Jersey?

Bread

of Life

Fellowship,

being

able

to meet together without having a

1559 Hamburg Turnpike in Wayne, New Jersey.

And again, we meet at noon on...

Hey, well, if anybody wants further information about Bread of Life Fellowship in Wayne, New Jersey, where

Dr. Joe LoSardo is the pastor, go to bolfellowship .org, B

-O -L for breadoflifefellowship .org, bolfellowship .org.

And I hope to remember to announce that later.

Well, this is quite an interesting topic that you have

requested that we discuss today.

A call to servant leadership to some folks that might even sound

oxymoronic.

Obviously, if it does sound oxymoronic to folks, they haven't really studied the life of Jesus

Christ very well.

Because he was obviously the perfect, the ideal, the premier servant leader

that all those who are in leadership should espouse to

be like.

In fact, we all as Christians should espouse to be like Jesus

Christ, no matter what our role or status or function in the body of Christ is.

But tell us specifically what compelled you to want to discuss this today.

Something that

we live in a

culture

that just exalts,

resembles the world.

Jesus specifically said when he washed

his body, and you ought to do

likewise.

He says, blessed are you if you do these things.

The way that you clearly on the

subject of leadership and greatness, and what true

greatness.

So when a man

believes he has been given the call by God to enter into specifically a leadership position in the church.

Although, as I hinted at this information today,

really it surpasses the

limitations of just pastoral and diaconate roles in the body of Christ.

But for the sake of our time restraints here today, we will primarily be

focusing on church leaders, and even parachurch leaders for that matter.

What are the specific elements that a man should

be prepared to have a part of his life

and character, have as a part of his ministry hallmarks,

things that will make those that know him

see his servant characteristics as

being something that are vivid, are clear, are vibrant, are

things that when they describe these leaders to others, perhaps not even in the

presence of these leaders, these qualities of a servant

may bubble up out of them as they joyfully describe

these leaders, if they are actually fulfilling that role of servant leadership.

What would be some things that would set apart a servant leader from someone else who may have

leadership qualifications, but someone might be hard -pressed to

call him a servant leader?

I would say that we

need to say that Jesus,

the example of Mahadevati, the mother of

Jacob, and

going to

be that Jesus took

that opportunity to teach about the very different nature of leadership.

In Matthew chapter 20, when she comes to him,

she says, I want my two sons to sit at your right hand and at your left.

So there's an indication there that kingdom or leadership,

rather, you know, sit in a sense, sit in the back and until you're invited up to the front.

Well, the same way Jesus says, you don't even know what you're asking.

And later on when the rest of us become indignant,

and that's when Jesus teaches about the,

you know that the rulers, this is in Matthew 20 verses 25 to 28, he says, you know that the rulers or the

Gentiles lorded over them and their great ones exercise authority over them.

Among you.

But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, among you must be your

slave.

And then he uses himself as an example.

And he says, even as the son of man came, not to

worship and greatness, or when they think about

leadership and

great income, or the number of Twitter followers,

book deals with major publishers, and these are sure in leadership,

humanity, this, and it

comes out even in social media, when we look at how many likes we have or how many friends we have,

seminaries to be a thing.

These young

people can

get the microphone

in my hand that I can tell

everyone else

the kind of leadership that,

that kind of attitude actually is dangerous because only want

to hold it in another person's light that

we're going to give an account

while I'm

up into

greatness or the

leadership,

greatest among,

describe leaders more,

described as servants.

In fact, isn't the word deacon in New Testament Greek, Koine Greek actually means servant?

Yes. Amen. Yes, absolutely.

And yet they are considered leaders in the church.

Of course, you and I believe in a polity that

has only two offices, elder, which is the same as a pastor,

and even the same, according to different translations, it's the same thing as a bishop or an overseer,

although we don't typically use those words.

And deacon is the second, and yet both are different levels of leadership in the church.

And yet the very word for the diaconate is servant.

It's quite interesting.

And it's not to say, Chris, it's not to say that leadership is not important in the functioning of the body of Christ.

I mean, even that word that you mentioned, episcopal or overseer, there is a

role of overseer that is never

seen as a title, but rather more seen as...

Now, one of the things that is a touchy issue, and I might even offend people, some

people that are listening, but there seems to be an uncomfortable

balance that needs to be made in the body of Christ, where on the one

hand, a man who views himself as a servant leader,

he should not have such a proud and lofty view of himself

that he refuses to pick up a mop and clean a bathroom.

He refuses to mow the church lawn and things like that.

But at the same time, if a church, especially if it's large enough

to have a diaconate, one might say that he shouldn't be taking away from

other infinitely more important roles that he has that involve caring for the flock,

he shouldn't be doing those things.

So there is, I think, a tension there that a church

should be making sure whenever it is financially possible and whenever it

is possible involving the number of people and able -bodied

men are in a church, that they should be making sure that although your

pastor is not too high and mighty and lofty to mow a lawn, if it

is at all possible for him to be using his time

far more often and a far greater percentage of his time

to studying, to preparing for sermons, to visiting the sick, and those

things that are truly a part of a pastoral position that are not

typically things that can be done by any member

of the church.

Of course, every member is called to visit the sick and so on, but there is a unique place for a

pastor doing that.

Exactly, exactly.

In

Ephesians 4,

about

Jesus,

a

widow's

word of God to serve table.

Now, that immediately we think, well, wait a minute,

the Holy

Spirit,

they are then

appointed as deacons, although nowhere are these seven men referred to

specifically

in the church

have that

nature equipping

the same public and

private instruction of the word, not merely

training faithful men, things of that nature.

Now, if you and I are going to be honest, we have been Reformed Baptists long enough to

know that although we would never dare to want to broad

brush our own people, and there are many, many, many fine

examples of humble servant leaders who are Reformed Baptist pastors, and I would

even include my own at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania,

and I'm not just saying that because I'm afraid of being put on a church discipline or something,

but you and I know that, unfortunately, and I think, and I could be wrong, but I

think things in this area have nationwide improved for the

better dramatically over the years because of certain unfortunate

incidents that have occurred, many incidences that have occurred in churches

over the last few decades that have become infamous and notorious involving

extremely heavy -handed authoritarian elder rule that might even be

rightly nicknamed a dictatorship.

Even though I think that the things have improved, don't you think that we who are Reformed

have to really put the spotlight on ourselves when it comes to

either repenting of, or the prevention of leaders who do not demonstrate

the qualities and the characteristics of servants?

Oh, absolutely.

There needs to be, at

least in the realities,

that

accountability of many Reformed Baptist churches.

If you go back, fundamentalism.

Yes, and might I quickly add that I believe you know some of the same

men that I know that are not a part of the stereotype of

independent fundamentalist Baptists where you have a one -man

pastor polity that has become like a dictatorship.

Now, they may have a one -man pastor polity with only

deacons below them, but there have been some, I'm just going to say a name

who so beautifully, I think, fits this realm or this description of servant

leader, and that would be Vinnie Sawyer.

Do you know Vinnie?

No, I don't.

Oh, okay.

For some reason, I thought you knew Vinnie.

Vinnie used to be the pastor of Faith Baptist Church in Corona, Queens,

New York, and now he is pastoring Victory Baptist Church

in Florida, and I can't remember the city right at this moment.

But what a humble servant and precious man of God he is from the

fundamentalist background, and even having, as far as...

Yeah, you know, I have heard of him, yes.

I was recently at a meeting in Queens, and his name actually came up now that

you mention it.

Yes, I...

There was a fundamental Baptist church in Corona, Queens.

What was the name?

What is his name, Vinnie Sawyer?

That's right.

Yeah, in Corona.

Now he's in Florida, you say.

Yeah, I can't remember the city, but it's Victory Baptist Church.

I just thought I'd throw that in there because I don't want us to be guilty of broad -brushing anybody.

Right.

But we have to go to our first break right now, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own,

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned in today, our guest today for the full two hours of the program is Dr.

Joseph Lozado who is pastor of Bread of Life Fellowship of Wayne, New Jersey,

a Reformed Baptist congregation.

And we are addressing a call to servant leadership.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at

gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live

outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And Dr. Joe, we have a listener in Ponoka,

Alberta, Canada.

His name is Sika Lee, S -I -K -A -E dash L -E -E.

And he has a question that I have to enlarge because the font on his email is so small.

Let's see here.

He says, Howdy, brothers.

Could you also explain how servant -like leadership is balanced with a shepherd -like leader

that may have to give a proverbial whack to a sheep here or there, or

guarding against wolves and or false doctrine?

Suppose that my question boils down to, can a leader be too servant -like?

I will have you answer that first, but my gut reaction is he can't be too servant -like, but he can be too weak,

which are not the same thing.

But anyway.

Right, right.

And I think that's the answer.

Even when the sheep need a whack

from the heart of a servant.

By the way, never use the term whack with a guy with a last name Losardo.

From New Jersey, no less.

And let's just assume our Canadian brother is not speaking about physically smacking or hitting

somebody.

Exactly.

But we are, as shepherds,

the exact opposite of the

exalted.

The more that we understand that our ministry

to the

church goes through the weak, picks up the grime of the world, they come to

church to hear the word, to be doing in

your community, to your church.

The idea of being a servant, in no way,

leading the flock.

You know, immediately when you were talking, answering Sicily's

question, immediately popped into my head the movie, I don't know if you've seen it, but I

highly recommend anybody who has not seen it to see this movie, Hacksaw Ridge.

Are you familiar with Hacksaw Ridge?

Yes.

And Hacksaw Ridge, for those of you who are unfamiliar with it, is about the true

military experiences of a true hero from history.

His name was Desmond Doss, D -O -S -S.

And he was a, in fact, he still may be living, I'm not 100 sure about that,

but he was a Seventh -day Adventist Christian.

Now, I'm not here to defend all the peculiarities of Seventh -day Adventism,

although I do believe there are true Christians in that group.

But he was someone who is a pacifist,

and yet insisted on being enlisted in the armed forces

when he was drafted.

And even though he refused to carry a gun, he wanted to serve as a medic.

And he wound up doing some absolutely amazing, bordering on the miraculous in

appearance anyway, feats of heroism at great risk to his

life.

I mean, you got to see the movie to comprehend what I'm speaking about.

Absolutely amazing feats of heroism, carrying people on his back to safety,

one after another, after another, and down a rope and down a cliff and so on.

And there were his fellow soldiers that fought

alongside of him, the real individuals who were

interviewed at the end of the movie to support everything that was depicted in the film.

So it wasn't just exaggeration for the sake of artistic license.

But here was a man that was mocked and made fun of initially by those in boot camp

who thought that he was basically a sissy.

You know, he was a coward and all that, because he had this conviction not to carry a firearm, but at

the same time was insistent upon going into battle.

And this just popped into my head because even though certain

qualities can defy stereotypes, that does not

mean that if a person doesn't have this

personality that reeks of machismo, that this person is less courageous,

less heroic.

In fact, he may be even far more of those things than somebody

who does reek with machismo, because that may be a cover for actual

weakness and cowardice.

But do you follow where I'm coming from?

That there are certain, go ahead, and I'll just quickly say there are

certain traits within the life of a faithful

Christian that are wrongly viewed by those observing them

as weakness.

Like, for instance, I'm sure that every young man, especially, I mean, I'm sure this happens to

young women in this day and age, especially as well, but especially every young man who

is growing up in a Christian home and has interaction with

unsaved young men his age is going to be mocked relentlessly

if he refuses to have premarital sex with a girl and might even ironically be

accused of being a homosexual when the Christian himself believes that that's a damnable sin.

So that's just basically, I guess that's why that immediately popped in my head that as the old

saying goes, don't judge a book by its cover.

But if you could, follow up on that.

Yeah, I think that that's, I mean, even that's certainly an example, a human example of

Jesus himself.

In Matthew 20, 28, he talks about how the Son of Man came not.

Then right after that, he says, and to give his life a ransom for many.

So the most, the most in the

history of humanity, giving his life as

a people from their sins is linked, Matthew,

sorry, this man of sorrows

acquainted with grief.

But yet we also know that Jesus of the tribe of Judah, he's described in

Revelation as having eyes of fire.

Well, there's one Messiah who is, who is Ben David, the king.

And there is one Messiah who is Ben Joseph, the one who in

one person, he's both the servant who came to serve, gave his life as a ransom

for many.

And he's also coming back as a triumphant king.

And he's, and he is to this day, he is our king, he's the king of his people.

We see that example.

By the way, this is not a question, but it is a listener comment

from a Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

He says, fun fact, did you know that the person who first turned me on to

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio was Pastor Joe Lissardo?

Really?

Yeah.

Look who that is.

Funny, Chris, as I was listening to you, it would be the very first,

and Jim Capo was your co -host.

WNYG in Babylon, Long Island.

Yes, Babylon.

Okay, I knew it was South Shore, Long Island.

Yeah, yeah, Babylon, Long Island.

It might've been 2005.

Yeah, that was the first year I was airing.

That's when I launched the show.

Wow.

And I've got, I've got to visit that building, see if it still exists and functions as a radio station.

I would love to, I bring a lot of memories back walking in there.

If need, they have kept things the way they were because even though I didn't start

hosting that show until 2005, their equipment was going back to the 1950s and 60s.

That was a real old -fashioned radio station.

Yeah, yeah.

But we have to go to our midway break right now.

And if you have a question, please send it to ChrisArmson at gmail .com.

ChrisArmson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Please be patient with us because this is the longer than normal break we have in the middle of the show because Grace Life Radio,

90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to

air their own public service announcements and other local things by the requirement of the

FCC to localize this program and all of their programming to Lake

City, Florida geographically.

So while they do that, we air our globally heard commercials.

So I'm asking you to use this longer break wisely, please try to write down as much of the

information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and

successfully patronize them.

That will further ensure that our advertisers will remain our advertisers

and that will further ensure that we as a program remain on the air because we absolutely

positively depend upon our advertisers and the finances that come through their

advertisements to exist.

If our advertisers all were to stop advertising with us, in fact, if just a few of them that are primary

advertisers were to stop advertising, we would go off the air.

So please try to patronize our advertisers as much as possible.

And when you can't actually patronize them, purchase their products, use their services, visit their churches, at

least contact them with the information they provide in their ads and thank them

for advertising on Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

That will go a long way to know that you appreciate them and their

use of their hard -earned money to keep us on the air.

And also, as I said, send in a question to Dr. Joe Losato, to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away, God willing, we are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Here's what Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Trump and Zion Radio recently.

Good to be back, Chris.

I always enjoy our time.

You, I have to tell you, one of the better interviewers out there.

And I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.

Wow, that's some compliment.

How much do I owe you for that?

You don't have to owe me anything.

We're in good, we're in good shape.

I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

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As host of IronTrumpandZionRadio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in

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Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here.

Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my

very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope

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I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, that you heard about them from James White on Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio.

Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air,

like the Historical Bible Society.

The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of

historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of

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Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key

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I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet

where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer

and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron

Sharpens Iron financially.

Would you consider sending either a one -time gift, or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would.

All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com, where you can click support.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

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And never forget, folks, that solid -ground -books .com is a premier, a

primary, a vital sponsor of this broadcast.

If they were to cancel their advertising with us, we would very likely go off the air, barring a

miracle from God financially.

So please, thank them if you love the show and want us to stay in the air.

Thank them for sponsoring this show.

And also, I want to thank you, the listeners, who have been purchasing many

books from solid -ground -books .com.

Many of you have been purchasing many books, and I've been hearing the reports back from Mike Gaydosh

at solid -ground -books .com, where perhaps even particularly

in recent weeks, the sales have gone through the roof from

our audience, from people who specifically told him when placing their order that they heard about

solid -ground -books .com from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

So I want to thank all of you who have been taking seriously my

urgings for you to patronize solid -ground -books .com, and also for remembering

to tell them that you heard about them from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, which is a very important element whenever

you're patronizing one of our advertisers.

Always remember to tell them where you heard about them.

And so, just remember, folks, you're not only going to be doing solid -ground -books .com a

favor when you purchase books from them, and you're not only going to be doing us a favor by keeping one

of our advertisers happy, you're going to be doing yourself an enormous favor.

And anyone for whom you purchase gifts from solid -ground -books .com, you'll be doing them an

enormous favor too, because they publish nothing but the finest and most theologically sound and Christian literature

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You can never go wrong, truly, when purchasing books from solid -ground -books .com.

Before we return to Dr. Joe Lusardo, our guest today, and our discussion on a call to

servant leadership, I just have a couple of announcements to make.

First of all, folks, going back to what I was just saying about our urgent need

for financial support, if you do love this show, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves,

please help us financially.

If you can, go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click click to

donate now.

You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

If you prefer snail mail, there will be a physical address that appears on your screen when you

click support at ironsharpensironradio .com, where you can send checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Also, if you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible

with what we believe, you don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that's at the very least

compatible with what I believe, and send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in

the subject line.

And I always try to remember to remind you every day, and I know this is repetitive and it's annoying,

perhaps, to many of you, but I want you to remember that I don't want my listeners

siphoning money away from their regular giving that they're accustomed to, to their own local churches where they're members,

in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

In other words, don't curse your church financially by blessing us financially.

Please don't do that.

And if you are really struggling to survive, and giving to us would put you in further financial

jeopardy or peril, at this point in life, hold off.

Because those two things are commands, clear commands of scripture, providing for your church and

providing for your family.

Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God and scripture.

But if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to provide for your church and

family, you have extra money that's sitting in the bank collecting interest, or you have

set aside for all the recreational reasons that you use some of your money.

Going to concerts, going to the movies, going out fine dining, or even going

out to fast food places, going to Bible conferences,

and going to your favorite sporting events.

Now that some of them are beginning to take place publicly in the midst of COVID

restriction hysteria, whatever it is that you use for recreational purposes, I am more than

happy to take some of that money off your hands.

If you feel that, or should I say believe, that Iron Trump and Zion Radio is

worthy of your donations.

If you really love the show, you don't want it to disappear, please help us out.

Go to www .IronTrumpAndZionRadio .com, click support, then click to donate now.

Also, folks, if you are not a member of a solid, theologically sound, Bible -believing church,

I have lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the globe, and I may have

a church or two right in your area on my list, no matter where you live.

I have helped people all over the world find churches, sometimes within a few minutes, from their own homes that are

biblically faithful.

So, please, if you are in that category of being in need of a church, send me an email to ChrisOrenson at gmail

.com, and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's ChrisOrenson at gmail .com, I need a church in the subject line.

And by the way, if you've already sent me an email like that, requesting a church, if

you haven't heard back from me, it may have fallen through the cracks due to a

really more emails coming in on a daily basis from listeners.

I apologize to you for that, so please just send me another email to remind me that you need a church.

And if you've won a book or a Bible, and you haven't heard from me, please let me

know, because we've been getting a lot more emails than we used to get, so please remind me.

And if you have a question for Dr. Joe Losato on the call to servant leadership, send

it in to ChrisOrenson at gmail .com, ChrisOrenson at gmail .com.

And by the way, Dr. Losato, Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, he beat me to the

punch before I told him to send you an email.

He said Dr. Losato helped me out with a survey I was conducting in grad school.

He answered the survey and sent a link to Iron Trumpets Iron, on which

he had just appeared as a guest.

I don't know if that recalls...

Yeah, it does.

It's a glimmer of vague memory, yes.

Well, thanks again for...

If you want to communicate, by the way, with Dr. Losato, and that goes for everybody in the audience,

he has been kind enough to provide his email address, info at

bolfellowship .org, info at bolfellowship .org, and if

you, Ted, or anybody else would like to communicate with him after the show is over.

That's not for questions for the show.

That email address is ChrisOrenson at gmail .com, ChrisOrenson at gmail .com.

We are back now with our discussion on a call to servant leadership.

I'm assuming that humility and the heart

of a servant are such crucial elements of being an under -shepherd in

Christ's church, an under -shepherd over Christ's flock.

I remember one time a brother, when I referred to him as an under -shepherd, he said, Brother

Chris, I'm a pastor.

I said, yeah, that's what an under -shepherd is.

He thought that was some kind of diminished title, but

if a person believes he has received a call for this very

important function in the church, if he doesn't have the qualities of servanthood, shouldn't he

either wait until, by God's grace, he develops them, or just

look for another vocation?

Their qualities,

their

willingness and

eagerness to

lead are five.

Yeah, but if you're a good motivational speaker, teaching people to be servants has got to be an element.

I think the world has enough proud, arrogant, braggadocious

people being further motivated.

I've been to some of these self -help

lectures.

In fact, some of them were required of me as a salesperson when I

worked for the largest Christian radio network on the planet Earth, and

sometimes the things that we were being told were absolutely atrocious and non -Christian,

things like, don't hang out with downers if people are

depressed and constantly whining and complaining about their struggles in life.

Just take them off of your friend list.

Get them out of your life, that kind of thing.

Now, obviously, we don't want people to remain perpetually complaining about things, but at the same time, if anybody needs

the love of Christ and the compassion of Christ, it's people who are struggling with something that leads them to behave that way.

Am I right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So tell us some of the other specific ways, tangible ways, that

those listening who might be already in the position of being a leader, a pastor,

a deacon, or perhaps they have a church polity where they designate elders

in a different category.

There's all kinds of things that churches come up with these days, shepherd board and things that aren't really

found in the scripture, and I apologize if I'm hurting the feelings of anybody listening,

but what tangibly can they do.

If they may be sitting here and they may be convicted by what you're saying, what

can they tangibly add to their routines in life that would make them more

deserving of being described as a servant leader?

It begins with a mindset.

We kind of have to go into

this model

to lead because the church can't get away with it.

Actually, that wasn't the radio station.

It was one of those motivational speaker events.

Motivational, yeah, yeah.

It just doesn't work.

There's a reason

they

need to be lead.

Church leadership is a messy thing, and as much as we will, our

congregations are not always going to be the well -behaved that let us

just...

I know what it's like.

You know, you get an email from an upset member, it's Friday, and

that email kind of interrupts that, and you wish that those kind of things wouldn't happen,

but they will, and they do

the things of

being that we're nothing more than unprofitable seed of our

members, then it'll make even the...

Rather than seeing, like you mentioned it, you have

a large church setting up

chair, bringing in traffic, or shoveling, or whatever.

We have a smaller church.

The mindset that we have going in is

that it becomes less about

me having influence in a person's life, but more about she needs

to be...

It's real good.

I'd recommend it.

Maybe I gotta have Kosti back on the show to discuss that.

He's been a guest on my program.

Yeah, yeah, he's a legend.

For those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with that name, Kosti Hinn is the nephew of the

notorious charlatan Benny Hinn, the Word of Faith so -called healer,

and Kosti has thankfully repented of the Word of Faith heresies,

and he is now in the pastoral ministry of a

Reformed, and Baptistic, and Cessationist congregation in Arizona,

so he's got a remarkable story to tell, and he would not be at all insulted by me describing his uncle

that way because he is probably even more

blunt about the issue than I am.

He spends much of his time exposing the heresies of his own uncle and everybody in that ilk, but anyway, I'm

sorry I interrupted you there.

That's

all

right,

John.

He says John the Baptist was locked in prayer.

Someone is watching or not, whether someone is washing our feet or not, that's

really what our calling is as leaders in the church, and that's really what ultimately what Jesus said greatness is,

is stooping down, grabbing the towel, washing the disciples' feet, and

proverbially washing and serving the people that are

given charge over.

We have an anonymous listener who says, I don't mean to be rude, and I hope this

isn't off the subject, but I keep hearing you Reformed Baptists talk about the example that Jesus

gave as in washing the feet of his disciples.

I don't know of any Calvinists who do this other than the primitive Baptists.

I only see this typically being practiced among the Wesleyan churches that I am very much

familiar with.

I guess he's talking about literally washing feet?

Yes, that is obviously an ordinance of some churches.

He is, or she, I don't know which, is correct to say that the primitive Baptists

do it.

I don't want to broad brush, but primitive Baptists, although they profess to be Calvinistic, have some very

hyper -Calvinistic views on a number of things, and actually, believe it or not, hypo

-Calvinist views on some other things, like they don't believe that God is in sovereign control

over all things that occur, but they have a tendency towards hyper

-Calvinist soteriology, but that's not what we're talking about today.

It can be done.

I've seen, I was actually at a wedding once.

He does it.

I mean, he shocks everyone by doing this, because it's not something that was hip.

They were washing,

but it really, he

takes it, the ceremony was to

then wipe

it on a towel,

he goes up to them, he leans down, and

he takes a humiliating act, and then

he gets up and he takes the opportunity to teach, and he says in John 13, he says, if you

understand what I've just done, you call me teacher, and you call me Lord, and that's right,

but he says, if then I, your Lord and teacher, have washed your feet, one

another's feet, an example that

is a master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him,

if you know these

things,

kind

of

thing.

Yeah, I've heard.

Well, finish your thought.

I don't want to have you lose your train of thought there.

No, no, go ahead, go ahead.

I have been told that foot washing was a common thing for servants to do

in that geographical region of the planet, especially in

that day and age, because people were walking around with sandals in the desert and the

dirt, but the thing that was remarkable and stunning was that someone of Jesus's

stature, at least in the minds of those who were his disciples, obviously he didn't have a

high stature in the minds of those who were his enemies, but for

someone to be viewed as the Messiah or to be viewed as their spiritual

leader to be doing this, that was what was shocking, and I've also been told, and you could agree or

disagree and let me know, that those that do it today,

there is no cultural significance that resembles that in the foot

washing of a present -day church.

In other words, like you were just basically hinting at, somebody in their

clean suit takes off his shoes and clean socks and has

somebody washing his clean feet, that there is no cultural ramification to

that that would actually involve humblings of somebody that is washing the feet.

Right, exactly, but there are parallels.

Someone walks in to hang it for them.

There are others that we can think of where we're genuinely taking on the role of an

individual.

Do I do what I do?

I might increase, or is it to see, like John the Baptist?

And this is a particular challenge for those that are particularly gifted in public preaching

ministry.

If you're a gifted preacher of the word on

the

individual's

part, even

at times taking on or

supporting another person in the kingdom, I think of church planting

as an example of this.

The modern, the more

people that hear you preaching, the more people you influence, the better it is.

The king of church planting, taking a portion that

God has in

another

past

gifted in you, possibly members, I know every church has

additions when that goes, but allowing them a

place where all of this is about

to do that, then we're, in a sense, saying, I must increase.

And then we're in danger where, in any place, where I must increase.

We're

creating idolaters in our churches because people follow men and

follow gifted men.

They have an

intentionality for handing off those gifts,

gaining others.

We're in the 80s, and there won't be a mentor.

I mean, I'm sorry, we would not have mentored anyone.

We wouldn't have anyone to when we go.

Coming out of seminaries, with youth comes pride,

or without first

feeding pride, and certainly one thing we don't need is our pride.

Do you think that included in this conversation needs to be

the caution that Christians need to have when

partaking in genuine liberties

that, for right or wrong reasons, the

areas of liberty are viewed by others as either sin or just plain

wrong, et cetera?

We have to be careful.

I'll give you an example.

In reform circles, there are some unique denominations like

the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America that has an abstinence rule,

at least for the leaders.

They don't believe in the consumption of alcohol in any amount.

But most reformed people believe it is a liberty.

As long as somebody isn't getting drunk, it is considered a liberty.

To socially drink, and to socially drink anything, whether it's hard liquor or wine or

beer, people like me, who had a reputation

of being scandalously and sinfully drunk after

having backslidden, after 18 years of sobriety, after becoming a Christian,

I know that I could never touch alcohol again.

It would just be totally wrong to not only tempt myself to fall back into that wickedness, but it would also be

just a horrible thing for people to witness if they knew my background.

The thing that has troubled me, and I know I'm probably going to offend a lot of my Reformed brethren, but it has

troubled me for years, watching in social media

and even seeing on the websites of certain Reformed ministries and churches people flaunting their liberty

to drink alcohol, and to talk about it excessively and adoringly.

I cannot help but get the impression that this is being done on purpose to

insult fundamentalists and others that have a different view of that liberty

than the person who drinks does.

By the way, folks, I'm not saying I don't believe Christians have a liberty to moderately consume alcohol.

I do believe they do.

I just know I don't, and I don't think that anybody who has had a history of a problem with

it should ever partake in it again.

It's not worth it.

Am I making sense here?

Including this in the discussion appropriate?

Oh yeah, absolutely.

That nut

is

ruined.

And we

all know,

maybe we

can argue whether

they're in

error, my brother or sister, and I'm not going to flaunt a freedom that I might

have on social media, no less, because think of the broadness of that audience that you have

there on social media.

And it's interesting, as one who brought shame upon the body of Christ with my

public drunkenness in the sight of unbelievers, it's interesting

how nearly universally the unregenerate and the non -Christian

or the nominal Christian, you know, people who were born and raised in some kind of professed Christian

denomination but don't even attend church or anything, there is

an idea that seems to be almost universal that those who are truly born again,

those who are true Christians, don't do that.

You know, and it's an unnecessary stumbling block and

a shock to these people, because they

view you as nothing less than a hypocrite.

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

and we ought to be in

the conscience.

We don't want to be a stumbling

block.

Maybe I said that grammatically incorrectly.

Nothing more than a hypocrite.

Well, we have to go to our final break.

It's going to be a much more brief break than the other breaks.

But if you have a question, please send it in immediately, because we are rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of

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Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Dr. Joe LoSarto after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

And I wanted to clarify why I brought up being careful about flaunting your liberty in

context of our theme today about being a servant leader.

When you do something like that, you're not putting what is best for others as a priority.

You're putting your own things that you love doing

that may offend some, even if it's wrong that it offends them.

I mean, we're not even...

The Apostle Paul basically was saying in his day that there was nothing innately

wrong with eating meat that was sacrificed to an idol, but he would never do it if it made a brother stumble.

That was my whole point about servant leadership.

We shouldn't view too highly our privileges and

so on to the point where it does harm to others.

And that leads me to another thing, I think, that ties into the subject, Dr. Joe.

The area of church discipline.

I can never thank my pastors, my former pastors, enough for placing me under church discipline

when I wandered back into the serious and even damnable sin of drunkenness,

habitual drunkenness.

And there are many churches in modern evangelicalism today that

out of a fear of looking like they are authoritarian, or perhaps they just don't want

to lose members, they don't want to have their tithes and offerings

diminish from people who leave those churches.

And there could be a whole lot of reasons, but there are leaders that don't conduct church discipline at

all.

And at the same time, those from our backgrounds, those that are Reformed, they may

be too quick to discipline people that are being disciplined over

reasons that aren't even biblical.

I mean, but this servant leader needs to be

in the minds of both those extremes because you are not serving or helping anyone when

you're not disciplining them when it's necessary.

I might be dead if I wasn't under church discipline because of the danger of what I was

doing.

And at the same time, you don't want to be harsh and proud

and so on and authoritarian when you discipline.

If you could just take it up from there.

The pendulum, one extreme or the other, church discipline is a gift

that guidance of individuals.

So if you're keeping in mind that you are there to serve the church community and serve,

you'll have a tremendous amount of

patience that individual requires.

Like you said, in your situation, you could have been dead had it

used men who...

I have to say this as well, and it may offend people, but shame on you.

If you are a pastor or a leader in a church where you are accepting

runaways, as it were, for lack of a better term, people who flee a church where they've been under

discipline legitimately, not in a cult or something.

They are legitimately under discipline.

They flee from one church to another and they are welcome with open arms, perhaps just because

they want more seats filled in their churches or they want that extra money in their

tithing plates, collection plates.

But it is a real serious problem that exists when pastors are fully aware

of the background of the person who has fled one church and been welcomed with open arms.

I even know of a situation where a man was excommunicated and then welcomed into the

eldership of another church that was fully aware of all the circumstances.

Oh, yeah, I mean,

handled.

You'd better be absolutely...

Well, do you have a minute of summary that you could provide over this topic that you most want etched on the hearts and minds of our

listeners today?

Sure, sure.

In Matthew 23, 12, Jesus said, whoever exalts himself will be humbled.

The future tense there reflects

it, creates a middle voice.

It's very different from the way of the world.

The way up is by decreasing, is what Jesus says.

He will humble himself.

The other world, we

need to understand, not be squeezed into the mold.

And that's the path.

Servant, the

life of Robert

Murray McShane, such a fine example of this,.

Who died at a very young age, 29 years old.

But I want to just repeat your website.

It's BOLfellowship .org, BOLfellowship .org.

And Dr. LoSardo's email address is info at BOLfellowship .org.

I want to thank you so much for being such a superb guest, Dr. Joe LoSardo.

I look forward to your return on many occasions.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.