Former SBC Executive Committee Member Speaks About Controversy

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The Conversations That Matter podcast.

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My name is John Harris. We have a special guest today, Dr. Paul Hicks, who is a former member of the executive committee for the

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Southern Baptist Convention. He just resigned last Saturday. We're gonna get his take on the current ongoing issue, controversy over what to do about sexual abuse in the convention, and we'll get into corruption and other things as well.

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Before we get there though, a few announcements. Christianity and Social Justice, Religions and Conflict is doing well on Amazon.

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And I'm getting a lot of good reviews from people who have read the book. Trevor Loudon, by the way,

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I should probably just read this since I have it right in front of me. Trevor Loudon sent me a message.

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He's basically, he's an expert on communism. Filmmaker, author, and he sent this to me yesterday.

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Western Christianity has waited a long time for this book. John Harris has done his faith a great service by applying his considerable academic skills to the elephant in the room, the accelerating

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Marxist orientation of the American church. John Harris not only has the research and writing skills to illuminate this deliberately obscured topic, but most importantly, he has the rare courage to name names.

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Thank you, Mr. Harris. And to that message that I received from Trevor Loudon, I just wanna say thank you,

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Trevor Loudon. That's a high compliment, and he's one of the good guys in this, and I just really appreciate that.

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So without further ado, let's talk to Dr. Paul Hicks. Dr. Paul Hicks is a bivocational pastor who was on the executive committee.

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He was at least until last Saturday, and he resigned. There's an article up on Capstone Report that has more of the details, but we are gonna get the story straight from Dr.

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Hicks. So welcome to the Conversations That Matter program, and I appreciate you being willing to share with us kind of what's going on.

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Well, great. Thank you for having me. It's such an honor. So why don't you just run everyone through kind of who you are.

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You're a pastor, you're bivocational though. You've been on the executive committee for the Southern Baptist Convention for seven years, and you decided to resign.

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Why would you do that? Well, like I said, or as you stated, I'm a pastor. I've been pastoring since I was 23.

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And so I'm 51. So listeners can do the math. It's too late in the day for me to do math.

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I've been bivocational for the last about four years. I enjoy being bivocational.

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And just with some fault, I decided this past Saturday that it was time for me to resign.

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One of the reasons I resigned is just I'm bivocational. I missed the meetings this previous week because at my job we training.

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So they brought some people in. I had to be at the training. And so it was not possible for me to get away.

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There are other bivocational members. There have been in the past, but the truth is if you're a bivocational pastor, it's really difficult to serve on the

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EC. One of the reasons I resigned though, besides that, was the fact of the ongoing discussion about the executive committee waiving its privilege, the liability.

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And my concern is that by waiving that, it was gonna open up the entire

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EC to be sued individually. Probably not just the EC. I think it would open up the possibility for say the credentials committee.

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Those people could be sued individually. In fact, I think there's the possibility that this action could potentially open up all of our entities, national, possibly even state.

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Maybe it could go further down. Would open all of us up to lawsuits.

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That has been a goal of many people in this. And people have gotten huge cash settlements.

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And if they ever get a way to get to the cooperative program money, they're gonna do it. There's people that that's what they make their living doing.

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And so I decided that it was time for me to get out while I was covered because I don't wanna be a part of anything like that.

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I wanna back up two steps because there's a lot of confusion. I'm thinking of the layman in the

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Southern Baptist Convention. They go to church, they give money to the Lottie Moon offering and they give money on Sunday and they don't understand exactly what's going on at the highest levels of their denomination.

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But there has been for the last couple of years, a push to get some oversight from the executive committee of the

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Southern Baptist Convention, I guess over churches for the purpose of preventing sex abuse.

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Am I stating that correctly? The way you put it,

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I'll just be honest, I'm not sure. The water has been very muddied since the credentials committee's purpose was changed several years ago.

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When that took place, I was one of the few executive committee members that opposed it. And I understand

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I'm completely against sexual abuse. The best way to stop sexual abuse, someone for being a repeat offender is to end the rope and hang them downtown.

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And I don't think you're gonna find anybody in our entities that's in favor of sexual abuse. The problem is, what can you do about it?

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We are a bottom to the top organization. The churches, the local church is the highest authority in the

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Southern Baptist Convention. And the executive committee has a very limited role as do all the entities.

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So when they began to change, originally when the credentials committee purpose was changed, we were assured by the leadership that it's not an investigative arm.

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There's no investigation going to be part of this. Well, what do you do when individuals and churches begin to submit reports of alleged abuse to the credentials committee?

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And I think that's part of where we are now. So that's a real big question.

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What is supposed to be done? My understanding is that the task force is wanting to look at executive committee minutes and have access to everything.

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Well, as far as I know, there's never been a case brought against the executive committee regarding sexual abuse.

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To my knowledge, no sexual abuse has ever taken place at the executive building or when the executive committee has been somewhere.

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So my concern is, well, the executive committee is not responsible for any seminary, any church, the other entities.

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So it makes me question, why are they doing this? So there's been a push, and this is,

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I guess, what came out of this is this task force from the Southern Baptist Convention this year, they voted on, we're gonna have a task force to investigate.

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But the push is to get some kind of a remedy to situations that involve sexual abuse from the executive committee of the

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Southern Baptist Convention. And for those who don't know, Southern Baptists believe in church autonomy.

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So the churches are, they stand alone, they cooperate together for missions and other things, but they are individually churches themselves.

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And the way it was handled up until recently, I thought was you call the police at your local church and you handle it kind of in your community in your church.

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Is that correct? Yes, that's, I mean, in fact, if anybody's listening now, if you know somebody, you're next door neighbor, someone at your church, anything, call the authorities immediately.

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That's what you do. Okay, so this became, though, through the

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Caring Well initiative and I don't know what else, but sort of, I guess, when the

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Me Too stuff started, that's at least when I started hearing about it, there became this obsession with getting the center of the convention, the executive committee and other entities now, seminaries and so forth, to do something extra to combat sexual abuse.

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But it seems like it's vague and it also seems like it's never enough. No matter what happens, there's always a finger pointing at the executive committee like they're somehow complicit.

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And that's what people are, in the pews are dealing with right now, is this accusation online, even from the president of the convention seemed to,

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Lytton seemed to insinuate that there's some kind of a nefarious willingness to cover up sexual abuse.

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Now, why is that? Why is that accusation going out there and what's behind that?

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Well, now, I obviously don't have the answer to that, but I'll give you my opinion. It's fun when you get into the entities of the

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Southern Baptist Convention and understand when I talk about the Southern Baptist Convention now, the

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SBC to me now stands for Room Control. That's the new

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SBC. Most decisions are made in a back room among a small group of men before the matters are even brought to their trustees.

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So many times trustees are rubber stamping things and or have very little time to make decisions or don't understand the issues at hand.

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I think you're dealing with a lot of incompetence. I think you're dealing with back rooms that is purpose for other workers.

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I think it's done on purpose. You know, there's an old saying, follow the money. And I believe if you look at our entities today, follow the money.

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Their individuals, they are making six, seven figures off of our cooperative program money.

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Sometimes I believe sometimes more. So why are the accusations being leveled? I'm not sure, but I believe one reason is because as Southern Baptists especially, we believe in protecting children, looking after the weak.

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We're a people that are known for a desire for righteousness. And let's face it, when you hear accusations of sexual abuse and cover up, most of us, it stirs our accusation guilty until proven innocent.

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Yeah, I mean, it certainly gets people riled up. They don't want that. And they're willing to almost do anything to prevent a situation like that, especially where children are involved.

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You said that you think what might explain some of this is the follow the money. I mean, is there anyone in particular or situation that maybe you would wanna cite to say like, this is what

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I saw, this is the corruption that exists just to let people in the pews who are funding the Southern Baptist Convention kind of know what you saw?

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I'm not gonna cite anything. Well, let me say one, right, right.

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I would say that, for example, the incompetence that you,

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I guess you would call it incompetence. For the executive committee, we would meet for our time in Nashville, for example.

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Well, the last day of our meeting is usually when the more important decisions are made.

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And there are many times on that last day, we would really be getting into the meat or the discussion.

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And then our officers would say something to the effect of, okay, everybody, this is great discussion, but we need to wrap it up because y 'all have all got flights to catch.

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Y 'all got to get back home. That bothered me the entire time I was on the committee. I know it bothered others.

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People said things, but nothing changed. And so one great way to keep things from happening that they don't want to happen is you limit discussion.

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That happened on many different issues where we'd really be digging into something and we were stopped.

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I remember when we were first discussing changing the credentials committee and taking up the sexual abuse or putting in place to be more protective.

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I remember the officers, I remember J .D. Greer, we kept hearing the cry, well, the world's watching.

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We don't have time to discuss anymore. We've got to make a decision now because the world's watching us.

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Well, I agree that's an important decision, but I believe important decisions like that, you need to take time and prayer and research.

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Most of us on the EC, and I would guess most of the other entities, we're not lawyers. And as much as we don't want to have to say that we've got to look at the law, when you're making these types of decisions, you need to look at the law.

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That's one example. Another example, I'm not going to name names. I don't want to do that, but I think you've got entity heads.

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They're making six figures, some of them seven figures. It's not all directly from the

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Southern Baptist Convention, which remember the Southern Baptist Convention produces no product. Every dime we have comes from the cooperative program.

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Little exception on Lifeway, but it's still the same idea. And many of these men, they're double, triple dipping.

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They have book deals here. They have conference deals here. And so I've said that one of the best things that we could do to establish trust with our entities again is

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I believe the presidents, vice presidents, your other top officers and employees and our entities, they need to immediately release a detailed account of their salary packages.

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Let us see what they're making. Second, I think these individuals should release their tax records.

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Let us see where they're making their money from. If they've got nothing to hide, then what's the problem?

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Because I think if we see where all the money's going, people would be very alarmed.

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Pastors that are by vocational churches that can't do the ministry they want to do. And then they see the huge amount of money that's going to individuals.

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So you've suggested this, but you've never been able to formally suggest this in your capacity as an

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EC member. Is that right? I did not. Basically the last two years with my by vocational status, these have been discussions one -on -one, small groups.

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So no, it was never made as a motion. I'm really, I guess now suggesting this as someone that's gone from the

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EC and saying this would be a great way to go forward. Let's say I'm wrong about everything.

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Well, great way to do it is show me your package, show me your tax returns. Right, yeah, that would certainly clear things up.

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You were concerned. One of the reasons you got off the EC was that if attorney -client privilege is waived.

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In other words, if some of these people that have been abused who have testified before the EC, if the books are opened and lawyers can go look at what was said in these meetings, it could be a way to even go after you personally.

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Can you explain that to people who might not quite understand? Why would lawyers wanna go after you as a member of the

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EC? You didn't do anything. Oh, of course not. And there's an old saying, maybe you've heard it before, don't sue poor people.

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Well, the reason you don't sue poor people is they're poor. The reality is most of our legal system is no longer about justice or honor.

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It's about monetary gain. So you sue people for money, for damages.

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Well, I'm not particularly concerned about myself as much, but I mean, theoretically, if a group could go into the

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EC and it's not being guilty, people can sue you for anything. I mean, I could sue you right now.

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That may not win, but it's legally I can do it. If the task force clears our protection, then suddenly all these people potentially could sue.

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They could sue us as individuals, possibly they could sue our churches. I mean, it gets muddy real quick.

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And the reality is we don't know what would happen. Right now we're protected. You start removing all of that, and you've got people that they're waiting in line.

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Let's face it. And no offense to any lawyers out there. I've got family members that are lawyers that are wonderful.

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I know great lawyers, but there's also terrible lawyers. Well, they make their living off lawsuits.

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And if they make money for you, they make money. So if they could sue individuals, they would, but especially, let's be honest, there are some people on the

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EC and all the other entities, this isn't just about the EC, that make good money or their trustees for a college or a seminary.

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And it's really important. We're all surrounded by the cooperative program. People want that money.

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And so suddenly these lawsuits can just come out of the woodwork.

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Yeah. And we know for a fact, on the EC, we know there's always people that are trying to lawsuits.

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And so that's my concern. I just said, I don't wanna be a part of it. I'm tired of the incompetence. I just want away from all this.

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Yeah, and I don't blame you for that, especially with everything you have going on, which sounds like it's a lot. Yes. For people that are still,

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I think it's getting clearer for them, but I guess what I wanna ask is, you were a part of the meetings leading up to when you resigned, which was last

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Saturday. So you've been part of the discussion, to some extent at least, about what authority to give to this task force.

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How is this gonna work? And so the, I'll just say it this way. It's the left.

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I don't, you don't have to agree with my terminology, but I think it's the left. I think it's the social justice leaning people in the

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Southern Baptist Convention that are spinning a narrative that there's something, that the executive committee is trying to hide something.

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The controversy has been whether or not you're for or against abuse, but that's not the actual question.

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It sounds to me like from what you're saying, the actual question and what's been debated is whether or not you're going to allow this task force to open a door that could potentially allow lawyers to go after people, even individually.

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And that's the question is, do we allow that? It has nothing to do with abuse or not abuse, which is what the left is trying to make it out like it is.

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Am I right on that? Yes. Yes, yes. This has so much to do with it.

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And I think what you said is also touching on the fact that this is just one of the facts, it's out there.

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Southern Baptist Convention is overwhelmingly a conservative denomination. We're one of the last churches that believes that God only calls men to be pastors.

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We're one of the last denominations that rejects homosexuality and all the

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ABC degenerate teaching that's out there. That's not popular.

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We're one of the last denominations that says abortion is always wrong and you can go on and on.

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Well, a lot of our members are Republican. That is not popular. And so there's a lot of agencies that they really want the

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Southern Baptist Convention to go away. And that plays a part in it. Interesting.

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Well, I don't think I have many more questions, but to me, this is such a cut and dry issue.

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It's like these, even the president of the convention, they're spinning this whole story that just, it doesn't match reality.

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And I appreciate you from the inside, just kind of clearing this up. I mean, do you have anything you want to add to what's already been said, or do you want to respond to anyone who's trying to lie about the

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EC? Well, sure.

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I would say that one thing that someone might say against me speaking out, and this is my opinion, as I'll state it again, prove me wrong.

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All the guys, these big positions, come on, show us your salaries right now.

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You don't have to have your entity's permission. Show us detail, show us your expense account, show it all.

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And then show us your income tax for the past 10 years or so. And we'll see your book, we'll see everything.

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But prove me wrong. But what some people would say is, oh, with you coming out, this is gonna cause further distrust in the convention.

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And Paul, you may be hurting the cooperative program. Well, you know what? How many lawyers does the

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North American Mission Board have on retainer right now? How many lawyers? You know, they're talking about this task force.

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Okay, do you know who's paying for that? Southern Baptists. And as I said earlier, we don't create everything.

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We don't have a gold mine, we don't have a silver mine. We receive our money from the churches.

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And I promise you, the churches are sending this money so that we can reach souls for Jesus Christ.

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They're not sending it for lawyers. And I'm gonna step out on a limb here. Maybe most or all of these lawyers are working for, well, if that's the case, why don't you tell us?

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I think that's admirable that all these lawyers are not getting it done.

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So I would say, you know, there's your money. If you've got individuals that are making seven figures or more, you know,

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I don't know how many Bibles you could buy, how many missionaries you could hire, how many people you could feed, but you know, you've got to decide where you want your money going.

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It's my understanding when Tom Rainer left Lifeway, when he retired, he got a severance.

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I've never got a severance when I retired. And one of this part, a part of his severance was he got $1 million.

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Wow. You know, so we, you can honestly say that at least in this case, Southern Baptist is a cooperative program made somebody a millionaire.

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Wow. That's disgusting, frankly. Should, I mean,

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I'll ask you, personally, are you staying? I mean, you're a pastor. Are you going to stay in the convention or are you waiting to get out for some, what's your stand on that?

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I'm staying at the moment. I'm going to stay at the moment because I want to see what happens.

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I still want a voice. I would encourage churches. And again, I know a lot of churches that are leaving.

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They're leaving the convention. They've already said it. They're just, they're fed up with it.

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I would urge churches, you know, pray about it. And instead of leaving, I'm issuing a, I call it the $14 challenge.

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Each year, give a $1 to the cooperative program a month. That's $12. Give a dollar to Annie, give a dollar to Lottie.

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That's $14. Again, people say, oh, you're hurting the missionaries. No, just think about a million dollar severance.

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No, we're trying to get people's attention. If a lot of churches suddenly gave $14 a year,

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I promise you there would be reform. There would be entity heads that would be fired.

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There would be trustee changes because you got to follow the money. And I hate to say that we're at that point where I'm afraid it may be money's the only thing that talks to these people.

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That is a sad state of affairs. Well, I appreciate you weighing in and just helping us with this,

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Dr. Hicks, because it's confusing for a lot of people. They hear these accusations and they're over the top.

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And we can understand why someone like yourself might get out. You have a family, you have a church, you're bivocational, you have another job, and you don't have to deal with this nonsense.

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This isn't something that, I'm sure you, out of the goodness of your heart, probably wanted to help the convention.

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But when you get stuck in these political fights, I'm assuming that can be very discouraging.

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So thank you for your service and for - Thank you, and I appreciate it.

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One thing, when we were discussing the sexual issues, plaguing the convention, one thing

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I suggested, I said, well, here's something we could do in the short term. I think everybody on the

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EC, when you come on as a trustee, and I would think this would be something we should do for all the entities.

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Every one of us should submit to a full background check. What a wonderful example that would set.

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You know what I got, how I was responding to? Crickets. Crickets. Wow. I wanted to stand up and shout, the world is watching, the world is watching.

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But that, to me, that was a very simple, immediate thing we could do to show, hey, we're trying.

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And that's what we tell all our churches, have background checks. Everyone that works with children, works with anybody.

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For that matter, staff members, volunteers, they should have background checks. Right. Why not entities?

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Why not trustees? Yeah, that's an interesting, because it almost makes you wonder whether this task force is just a symbol.

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It's throwing a bone, and it's a, is there actually some teeth behind this that will help victims, actual victims?

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That's supposed to be the point. Exactly. And then you've got people like, the president of the convention that, in my opinion, still hasn't explained why he doesn't write his own sermons.

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And we have so many people that, if you have the time to dig into it, which

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I don't, nobody does, you start finding out who used to be at whose church on staff, who did whose wedding, who roomed with who in a seminary, who's on each other's boards.

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But when you begin to put all that down, you begin to see the people that are all connected, their names keep coming up in scandal after scandal.

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And remember, I'm just going to say, this is going to hurt some people's feelings. This may make some people mad.

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They couldn't get real jobs. This is what they do all day long, is figure out where the money's coming to their entity.

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They get to travel around in first class. They stay at nice hotels. They get taken to ball games and dinner.

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They get to speak. People want their autograph. That blows my mind. It's the whole celebrity culture we've created in evangelical circles.

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So these people, they don't want the money stopped. They are building their own empires.

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That's a powerful note to end on, because it's a reality check.

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For everyone who's giving to the Southern Baptist Convention, I hope if you're Southern Baptist and you're hearing what Dr. Hicks has to say, that you'll take that to heart.

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Maybe take this, what was it, $14 challenge, and get serious. $14 challenge. Yeah. I mean,

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I'm telling you, if even if you just did it from now till the first of the year, suddenly people would start answering some questions.

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I promise. Well, on that note, thank you, Dr. Paul Hicks. Appreciate you being willing to talk about this stuff.

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God bless you on your endeavors. And I'm glad that you have at least one weight off your chest now so you can focus on your church.

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Well, that was Dr. Paul Hicks. I hope that was beneficial to everyone who's a Southern Baptist out there. Understanding more about your denomination

30:32

I think is important if you give money to it. Just a quick reminder for those who are interested, patrons of $10 or more a month to Conversations That Matter will receive a free copy of Christianity and Social Justice, Religions and Conflict autographed by myself.

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And you can find the link in the info section if that's something that interests you. If you just wanna get the book though, you can also go to Christianityandsocialjustice .com

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and you can order the book there. And I hope it's beneficial for you for those who are able to order it.