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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer
George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend
Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.
We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 24th day of April, 2024, and before I introduce my guest and topic for the day,
I want to remind all men in ministry leadership that the next free, biannual
Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon is going to be held Thursday, June the 6th, 11am to 2pm, at Church of the
Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, which is Perry County, Pennsylvania, and for the very first time, we are featuring as our guest speaker, my very longtime friend,
Dr. Joel Beakey, who is the founder and president of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Not only is admission free, and not only is your lunch free, and your time of fun and fellowship and rest and relaxation and edification, from a message from Dr.
Beakey, you will also receive, everyone will also receive, a very heavy sack of free, brand new books donated by Christian publishers all over the
United States and United Kingdom, and personally selected by me, and everything is absolutely free at the insistence of my precious late wife,
Julie, who helped me launch these free Pastor's Luncheons back in the 1990s.
It was her brainchild, and I continue them in loving memory of her and in honor and tribute to her to this day, even after her home going to Christ.
And I was so happy just about two days ago to hear from Phil Johnson, the
Executive Director of John MacArthur's ministry, Grace to You. He has already shipped us enough copies of John MacArthur's new book,
War on Children, so that every pastor in attendance can have their own copy.
So, if you want to register, remember it's absolutely free, and you have to be a man in ministry leadership.
Send that email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line.
But I am so delighted to announce the return of a dear friend to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, a man who
I love interviewing. His name is Pastor Josh Bice. He is the pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.
He is an author. He is a highly sought -after conference speaker and founder and president of G3 Ministries.
And today we're going to be addressing a vital topic, which is also the theme of an upcoming conference, why modern prophecy is false and the
Word of God is inerrant and sufficient. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, Pastor Josh Bice.
Chris, it's great to be with you as always. Thanks for the invitation. Why don't you tell our listeners first and foremost about Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.
Yeah, thank you. So, Praise Mill Baptist Church is a Reformed Baptist Church on the west side of Atlanta in Douglasville.
It's a 182 -year -old congregation, and I've had the privilege of serving as pastor of Praise Mill for these last 14 years.
Before that, I pastored out of state in Kentucky and Tennessee through the years of seminary.
But interestingly enough, my wife and I grew up as children in Praise Mill. And so just a privilege in God's good providence to be able to come full circle and to serve the very congregation where my wife and I grew up as children.
And this is a confessional Reformed Baptist Church? That is correct. Now, growing up, it wasn't.
It was a Southern Baptist Church. And so after my arrival here as pastor over these last 14 years, we determined that there was not a good path forward for us within the
Southern Baptist Convention. So we made the decision to separate from the
SBC. But during those years, providentially, we had seen the rise of G3 Ministries from this very campus, a ministry that I started as just a conference.
And so in these recent years, there's been the development of the G3 Church Network. So it just worked out well for us to be able to exit the
SBC because of convictional matters and compromise in the
SBC, and then to be able to partner with a healthy church network where we can encourage other pastors and be encouraged by other pastors and serve alongside other churches for ministry purposes.
So yeah, that's a little bit about the history of our church. If anybody wants more details about Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, go to PraiseMill .com,
and that's spelled P -R -A -Y -S Mill dot com. And I'm assuming you would agree with me that even though Praise Mill Baptist Church has made the exodus out of the
Southern Baptist Convention, that there are still a remnant of biblically faithful churches within that denomination.
Oh yeah, most definitely, Chris. We have churches within the G3 Church Network that are still very much a part of the
SBC. They're seeking to work for the health and the strength of that convention.
So yeah, I would totally agree with that. Yeah, our mutual friend Dr. Tom Askell, who runs the
Founders Ministries, which is called that for a reason because all of the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention in the 19th century were thoroughgoing five -point
Calvinists. So there are still men taking a stand for truth there.
That's correct. And I'm going to play right now a commercial for an upcoming event that you are heading and where you are speaking, and we'll have you discuss that as soon as the commercial is ended.
The church today is infected with the influences of the charismatic movement. God told me who
I would marry. When God spoke to me, I, like, heard it so clear. As clear as I'm talking to you now, the
Lord spoke to my heart. God spoke to us audibly. I hear the audible voice from God. The word that the
Lord gave me. He told me that everything I was feeling in my spirit was correct. I know that this is what the
Holy Spirit has spoken to me. That's the word God spoke to me. Charismatic theology has affected so much of our theology in ways that we don't often recognize.
Man, I tried for years to speak in tongues. Don't speak in English, don't think English. Mom, briastica, yes, the brianda, yes, the man says it's weird, but the spirit says, hello.
This is awesome. Fake miracles, false tongues, and non -authoritative prophecy. A prophet is one who has
God's words put in his mouth. If you are not earnestly desiring spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, you are sinning.
They don't have a single prophet who has been 100 % accurate. What does the New Testament say prophecy is?
What does the New Testament say tongues are? What does the New Testament say the gifts of healing are? Let's compare them to the contemporary charismatic
Pentecostal movement. And what you find out is the two don't match. It teaches people to look away from the
Bible to some experience. Deep down, charismatics are riddled with doubts about what they believe.
Is God's word sufficient? Is God's word enough? Dreams, visions, those sort of things inspired me to love
Jesus, to obey him. Join us in October of 2024 for the Cessationist Conference.
The church must once again stand with a renewed confidence in God's sufficient word.
We hope to see you there. Powerful commercial. It's going to be held
October 3rd through the 5th. And if you could tell us more details about exactly where that will be held.
Sure, Chris. So this is the Cessationist Conference. And it's going to be held in Mustang, Oklahoma at the
First Baptist Church. And that is where Michael Staton is the pastor.
And so we're looking forward to being with that congregation on that campus. And really in many ways, if you just look at the location, you can see much of the charismatic movement is very much located and has been historically connected to Oklahoma.
Yeah, Oral Roberts University. Yeah, absolutely. And so this is a wonderful opportunity for us to go into that region and to be able to have a conference on this very subject with different speakers who are going to be there with me as well.
So you have Phil Johnson, Mike Riccardi, Justin Peters. We have Conrad Mbewe coming from Africa as well as Tom Hennington.
And so Scott Anuel and Virgil Walker will also be there as well. And so when you think about the goal of this conference, it's going to be really in many ways to unpack what you and I will be talking about over the next hour and a half, two hours.
Amen. And you mentioned my dear friend, Dr. Conrad Mbewe, who has been a friend of mine since 1996.
The church where I was a member on Long Island, New York, before moving to Pennsylvania, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island.
In Merrick, New York was the very first church in the United States where Conrad preached. But he has some startling information about what is going on under the umbrella of Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement in Africa.
Because, you know, it's interesting. Very often when you ask a
Pentecostal or a charismatic, you know, why aren't people being raised from the dead and why aren't limbs, non -existent limbs being restored to people in your movement like they were in the
New Testament? If you think that, if you believe that your movement is an exact replica and a continuation of the
New Testament sign gifts, why aren't those things happening? Very often you'll hear, well, they're happening in Africa.
Well, what is happening in Africa is something that makes the Pentecostal and charismatic movement here in the
United States look like kindergarten because there is such a satanic mixture of the witch doctors and pagan religion with the
Pentecostal and charismatic movement there that it is really frightening when you hear
Conrad explain it. Yeah, it certainly is. It's a massive problem. And sadly is the case is that it was exported from the soil of America to the various different countries on the continent of Africa.
And so, again, we need to speak clearly on this subject. And unfortunately, the charismatic movement is not going away.
It is very much here to stay, it seems. And sadly so,
Chris, as you well know, in many ways it's been sort of coddled by modern day evangelicalism.
And so if you just sort of look at evangelicalism from the outside, from like a big tent sort of view, what you see is you see the fingerprints of the
Pentecostal and the charismatic movement all over the windows, if you will, all over the various different functions within evangelicalism.
And it's really sad. Yes, it is. And I'm sure you would agree that the focus of our discussion today on prophecy, modern day prophecy being false, that is above all of the other differences that you and I and our theological kinfolk, that is by far the most serious problem that we would have as far as a belief and practice within Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement is the claimed gift for prophecy.
Would I be correct in that? You would agree with me on that? Yes, I would actually.
And if you think about it, you have these what you call apostolic gifts or miraculous gifts.
And some of those gifts are what we call revelatory gifts, which means that they are communicating what
God has spoken directly to people. And this certainly did happen. We see this with the gift of prophecy, but we also see it with the gift of tongues in the
New Testament setting. But those gifts are no longer given to the church because they were signed gifts.
And so we have a complete, sufficient, and authoritative word. So any of these revelatory gifts, if they are said to continue in our present hour, they are undermining the doctrine of biblical sufficiency.
Yes, because if you need new revelation, a fresh new wind, as some of them are known to say, you're saying, you're admitting, even if you're unconscious of this fact, that the
Bible doesn't contain enough for us. Correct? Yeah, absolutely. You're in many ways confessing the fact that, you know,
God hasn't said all that he needed to say. And so he needs another addition. And that addition is not necessarily in print form.
It's more in, you know, audible voice, or impressions upon the spirit of a person who would then speak forth the word of God today.
And that's massively dangerous. Now, I also assume that you would agree with me, as seriously as we take this issue, and as vehemently opposed as we are to continuationism or continuism or charismatic phenomenon, we still believe that there are many genuine, regenerate, born -again brothers and sisters in Christ in the midst of this movement.
Now, obviously, we also believe that there are many wolves in sheep's clothing and false converts and false professors.
But we would not immediately discount and withhold the hand of fellowship to those professing to be charismatic and Pentecostal necessarily.
Am I right on that? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously, you're going to have a spectrum, if you will, if you want to use that language to talk about people on the spectrum of the charismatic or the
Pentecostal movement. But, as you well stated earlier, it is problematic because, you know, if you have one person that's saying, well,
I'm hearing from God, and then what they say doesn't come to pass, but their doctrine of the church and their doctrine of ecclesiology or the doctrine of, say, the sovereignty of God may seem to be pristine, their soteriology may be in proper form, but yet they're off base here.
There is still an overlap with those others on the far other side of the spectrum who are actually wolves that are saying that they are too hearing from God, and yet what they say doesn't come to pass as well.
And so we must be clear that, yes, there is a spectrum, and there are genuine brothers that are claiming to hear from God or claiming to possess these apostolic gifts and we would still be able to call them brothers in Christ and sisters in Christ.
However, there is, and it must be stated, there is an overlap between what they're saying and the false teachers as well, and therein lies the problem.
Yes, and I think this would be, I usually don't take listener questions this quickly, but I think this will help set the stage for what we are discussing.
Let's see here. I'm looking for a question that I received. Let's see.
Well, I can't find it right now, so I'm going to go back to it when I locate it. But as far as the gift of prophecy, that commercial that I played that you produced, there were some chilling things included in that, including a pastor warning his congregants that if they don't actively pursue the gift of prophecy, that they're in sin.
What kind of pressure is that to put on people to either consciously or unconsciously fake such things, to perhaps identify any thoughts that pop into their head as coming directly from God, and yet it's a delusion just because they're trying to be in a right relationship with their pastor, with their fellow congregants, and with God himself.
I mean, this is really ridiculous and wicked peer pressure, isn't it?
Oh, it certainly is, and the problem with that is that the individual that made that statement was not just some fringe false prophet that should be discounted as some loony tune that just pops up on social media.
This is a well -respected man that has very much been received in conservative evangelical circles and conference circles, and that individual is none other than Sam Storms.
And so, you know, he has been, you know, in open reform.
He calls himself a reformed continuationist or a reformed charismatic, and he's not just saying that he's open but cautious.
He has actually written an entire series of articles in response to our publication of the cessationist documentary last year, in which he actually criticizes what we said about him in the documentary when we put him in the same sort of classification as you've heard of others like Wayne Grudem and others who would call themselves open but cautious or others within evangelical circles calling themselves open but cautious.
And he actually went as far as to say he's not open but cautious. He's actually very much open and he's not cautious because he says he's not going to be cautious about any gifts that come from the
Spirit. And this is massively confusing to a lot of people, and we need to deal with what the
Bible says about the subject of prophecy. The sad reality is
Wayne Grudem and Sam Storms and these individuals like those voices continue to drive the idea that there's one sort of prophecy that happened in the
Bible times, specifically in the Old Testament or even maybe through Apostles in the
New Testament, but today's prophecy is what they might call potentially fallible or even non -authoritative prophecy.
And that is massively distorting the definition of biblical prophecy. There's no example of that anywhere in the
Old or New Testament, is there? There is no example of it. The only criteria that we have, according to God's Word, is to evaluate the legitimacy of the prophet's words by whether or not what he said comes to pass.
It doesn't come to pass, and obviously there was the death penalty according to the law, and so this is massively troubling to purport this new, strange definition of prophecy.
It simply doesn't align itself with the Word of God. And the extra fear that must be instilled in the hearts and minds of congregants who are members of churches professing to actually practice modern -day revelation and prophecy and instill within the congregants that they should be seeking the ability to do that themselves.
The fear of disagreeing or critiquing your pastor especially, when he's not just saying this is my understanding of Scripture, this is not just my understanding of theology and doctrine, this is from God.
So if you put yourself in a position where you are questioning the validity of these things that are being said, you're disagreeing with God.
I mean, this is really scary stuff. Well, it is, because it opens the church, it really opens the front door of the local church to manipulation.
And so, again, it's like lying down the ace of spades on the table and there is no other, there is no greater card that can be played than the ace of spades.
And so to say, God told me, and now we're to respond to this.
I mean, we can't just say no to God. I mean, if God said it, we have to listen to it, right? So it just opens up the door of the church to false prophets who manipulate the people and ask for money and seed offerings and all sorts of things on the basis of God told me.
That language is not only problematic, I would argue that it uses the
Lord's name in vain. Amen. And by the way, we are going to our first commercial break, and Joe in Shippensburg, I found your question, so I will read it to Pastor Bice when we return from the first break.
And if anybody would like to join Joe in Shippensburg, Pennsylvania with your own question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com
c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the
U .S .A. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you are a member of a
Pentecostal or charismatic church. You're starting to wonder if you should be still a member of such a church.
You're starting to think that what you are witnessing around you may be fake, may be the activities of charlatans or just misguided
Christians. And you don't want to identify yourself publicly at this point. We would understand that would be a reason to remain anonymous.
And you might even be the pastor who is going through a journey of your own, questioning the validity of this.
And by the way, Pastor Bice, you might find this fascinating. Years ago, when I conducted Iron Sharpens Iron radio on Long Island, New York out of WNYG radio in Babylon, Long Island, a listener in the audience when
I was discussing the very topic that we are addressing today was a charismatic pastor who became convicted that he was teaching falsely.
And he not only removed himself from member of the church where he was pastoring, he stepped down from the pastorate and left that congregation with a loving reason that he was providing for the elders and congregation.
But he eventually joined a theologically reformed cessationist church. So you never know who's listening.
Yeah, well I welcome questions from anyone who might be listening, including pastors. So please, if it's a general question however, not a personal and private one, please give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.
We'll be right back. Don't go away. Hello, I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur.
I've been a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron radio and I highly recommend this show. But today
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So please, go to RoyalDiadem .com today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with Pastor Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia, who is also the founder and president of G3 Ministries.
We are discussing how all prophecy today is false and why the
Bible is in there insufficient. If you have a question, send it to ChrisArnson at gmail .com and we have a question from Joe in Shippensburg, Pennsylvania.
I work with a Pentecostal colleague who very frequently is trying to convince me of his beliefs.
The Biblical verse he quoted to me recently has stumped me, not in that it proves that prophecy and tongues exist today, but it seems to challenge the idea that most cessationists have that tongues in the
New Testament era were always real languages spoken to others that were not already known by the evangelist, that it was a miraculous gift from God to the evangelist that was a real known language not to himself, but to others.
The text that I'm speaking of is in 1 Corinthians chapter 14 starting with verse 1.
Pursue love yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts but especially that you may prophesy.
For the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people he has that emphasized but to God.
For no one understands but in his spirit he speaks mysteries but the one who prophesies speaks to people for edification, exhortation and consolation.
So please explain this. Do you believe that this is referring to a known language in the
New Testament era? That's an excellent question because on a surface level it does seem like this is one of those angelic languages that people were, at least in that day, speaking directly to God that had no clear benefit to those surrounding them.
So if you could explain that Pastor Josh. Yes, so I'll definitely be happy to answer the question.
Obviously the topic of our conversation Chris is centered primarily upon prophecy itself.
But tongues in this specific time period would have been in the category of what we call a revelatory gift.
So tongues would have been used for the purpose of doing what? Of explaining or delivering information from God to people.
So he gives a very specific understanding of how this was to be practiced.
And so obviously there's the idea of not being disorganized, being orderly in worship.
If you go on down in 1 Corinthians 14 you will see that. Obviously he talks about the fact that all things were to be done for the purpose of what?
Building up. And if anyone speak in a tongue, let there be only two or three at the most and in each turn, in other words, one at a time, not just speaking over the top of one another, and then let someone interpret.
So just to be clear, there is not one specific Bible verse that can be supplied that actually reveals the fact that tongues are what we see in this modern practice of gibberish.
There's just not. The word itself that's being employed in the Greek language is actually a word that means unknown dialect.
That's why it is very clear later in 1 Corinthians 14 that talks about let someone interpret.
Everything is to be done for the purpose of what? For building up. Now, if you go back in the context, you'll see that it's clear that what was happening here is that Paul is giving a rebuke to the church at Corinth for their disordered worship for their competition with one another to try to have power and authority by having these supreme gifts.
And so there's some use of hyperbole that's being employed by the Apostle Paul, where he talks about obviously someone speaking in the tongues of angels or whatever it might be.
That language is considered to be hyperbole and it's for the purpose of an intended effect to show the people that you know what?
Even if you could speak this way, it's not for the purpose of building up the body.
What you should be doing is building up the body. And so there is an ongoing repetition of this idea of edification and building up that is all throughout this chapter and all the way back through to chapter 12.
And so it's a corrective letter because of the practices that were being employed there in the church at Corinth.
So yeah, this is not some sort of proof text of heavenly language or speaking in the spirit or speaking in the tongues of angels and all of those sorts of things that you will oftentimes hear
Charismatics refer to. It's always a known language and it would always be employed in such a way that someone could actually understand that language in the congregation and then speak forth the word of God to the church that would have been gathered there.
So it's not just some gibberish as we often hear in our present day. Yes, and it's interesting that very often
Pentecostals and Charismatics go to 1 Corinthians 14 to prove the validity of what they do and yet it's a rebuke of the misuse of this activity.
And I have never, I mean especially when I was a young Christian searching for truth, or should
I say a young person searching for truth and being drawn by God before I was a member of a
Biblically solid church. I had visited many Pentecostal and Charismatic churches and still do from time to time if a friend invites me or if there's some kind of an event that would be appealing or important for a person of any theological persuasion to be present there.
But I have never experienced, and I'm sure this probably exists somewhere, but I've never experienced a
Pentecostal or Charismatic worship service where every instance of tongue speaking is interpreted.
And most of the time you will hear dozens to hundreds of people babbling at the same time and you don't see people from the pulpit correcting them, as Paul was correcting people.
So it is a strange phenomenon. Yeah, and then again, even if someone could stand up and claim to be able to interpret the gibberish that's being spoken in these
Charismatic circles, the actual gibberish doesn't align itself with the actual word for tongues in the
New Testament, which is a word that means unknown language. Not an unknown language, not some jibber jabber or gibberish.
It's a known dialect. It's an actual language. And that was, by the way, the miracle at Pentecost when you have these tongues of fire coming upon the people in the upper room and then the apostles go out into the streets that were swelling with all of these people that were coming from these far away districts and outside of the borders of Jerusalem for the purpose of celebrating
Pentecost, the feast of Pentecost. And so, you know, obviously God was bringing in foreigners and bringing in all these different people that were coming in, and so it would have been a miracle of the spirit for the purpose of what?
For the people to actually hear the word of God in their own language, in their own dialect.
So the misuse at Corinth doesn't align itself with the actual miracle at Pentecost, and the same thing could be said about our present hour.
Okay, we do have a question that is off -topic, but I think it's important to at least briefly address it, since so many of our listeners may be very much involved in or supporting
Nine Marks, but we have Seth in Hummelstown, Pennsylvania. Greetings, Pastor Josh.
Being aware of some of the controversies surrounding the Nine Marks organization, and he has, in parentheses, claims of going woke, criticizing
John MacArthur's decision to keep their church open during the pandemic, etc.,
how would you advise a church that periodically uses Nine Marks materials and is considering affiliating itself with the
Nine Marks organization? Should they proceed with caution, or would it be best to avoid the organization altogether?
Well, that's a good question, Chris. I mean, obviously, again, I received the question,
I think, in the spirit that it was given and asked, but again, at the end of the day, what
I would just urge is, whether it's Nine Marks, or whether it's G3 Ministries, or whether it's
John MacArthur's ministry, or any other ministry, there needs to be the exercise of discernment and the proper evaluation of that ministry before a church would then open up the front door of the church and allow that ministry into the church and into the sheep.
Those sheep actually belong to God, and the goal of a pastor is to be a faithful shepherd who leads the sheep and leads the sheep to good food, feeds the sheep, but also protects the sheep.
So, my job in the context of our local church is to say, if there's something that's off -base here in this ministry, then
I don't really need to allow those specific materials to be used in the life of our local church.
So, again, for that very reason, we have ceased to use the materials associated with Nine Marks, or even others within the
Southern Baptist Convention because of some of those compromising positions. But I will say that if a church uses some materials from Nine Marks, it doesn't necessarily mean that that church is woke.
So, I think that we need to be very careful to not broadbrush every church and every pastor, just as well as we're having this conversation about quote -unquote reformed charismatics.
I mean, I have a problem with that title. I mean, I'll just be honest with you. But at the end of the day, do we have individuals that we can call brothers and sisters in Christ that are claiming to be a part of the continuation of the apostolic gifts?
And the answer is yes. So, although I'm going to stand in complete disagreement on these issues, the same thing can be said about those associated with Nine Marks and my brother
Mark Dever and others who I would disagree with on matters related to the social justice divide.
Yes, and I'm assuming there would be a similar circumstance with the Gospel Coalition where it's a mixture of people associated with these organizations where you have some that might be full -blown woke and others that are just silent in protesting it.
Am I somewhere in the orbit of truth there? Yeah, I think so. But again,
I mean, I'm at a place where personally, I will not promote the materials of the
Gospel Coalition because of the massive and troubling positions of Tim Keller and some of the others.
So, you know, if I were to run across an article that speaks truth on the
TGC platform, I'm just convictionally so, to be cautious of subjecting people to false teaching that might be there and that actually is there, then
I'm Yes, and my friend Rosaria Butterfield has even publicly said that she will not promote the
Gospel Coalition at all because of her disappointments over some of the positions that they've come to embrace.
But, well, thank you very much, Seth, and keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Well, could you perhaps correct the thinking of some of our listeners who may be charismatic or Pentecostal because just like many were in the infancy of this movement, they were reacting to liberals, like in the higher criticism movement coming out of Germany, who were seeking to remove the miraculous as being authentic history and experience from the
Scriptures, and there was a lot of dead formalism that had come to dominate many churches and denominations, and these, some,
I'm not saying that these were all well -meaning people, they were no doubt charlatans, but there were some well -meaning people who said, if the
Bible says it, I want to do it, and I want to perpetuate it, you know, and they were misguided because they weren't rightly dividing the word of truth.
So perhaps if you could give a word of loving correction to people who have all the right motives, but have wound up in serious error.
Yeah, it's a great point that you raised there, Chris. I think that that is true. I think that a lot of people are just reacting to some of the deadness that they've seen in some of the churches that they've been a part of.
Maybe they were raised in a hyper -Calvinistic setting, or maybe they were raised in a church that was sort of like the frozen chosen, and we've all seen that, right?
And it's problematic when you see churches that are just dead, and it's like there's zero life there.
But we always have to remember that when we correct a mistake on one side of the road, that we don't wind up in the ditch on the other side of the road as well.
And so we need to be very cautious there. I think that the confessions really help us.
I mean, if you look at the Westminster Confession, if you look at the 1689 London Baptist Confession, I'm a
Reformed Baptist, you can just read those confessional statements right there in paragraph one of article one of the
Holy Scriptures in the 1689. It talks about the fact, and it uses the language intentionally so, that the
Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience.
And it goes down in that first paragraph, and it concludes in similar ways to the
Westminster, but the Westminster uses different language. It says this. It talks about the fact that the
Holy Scriptures are to be necessary, talking about those former ways of God's revealing
His will to His people being now completed. Now it's almost an identical statement in the
Westminster Confession of Faith. It says those former ways of God's revealing His will unto
His people being now ceased. And so I do like that language of the
Westminster Confession when it talks about the former ways of God revealing Himself, speaking about divine revelation,
God talking specifically to individuals who would then in turn talk to God's people being ceased.
I like the word ceased there because it drives home the point that these once wonderful, miraculous gifts that God gave to His people, that era has now passed, and so those gifts have now ceased to be given.
And so I just think that the confession would help these people that are reacting in a way to cold, dead orthodoxy and even some fundamentalism on certain sides of the road there, a ditch maybe on the right side, and so they end up overcorrecting and they end up in another ditch.
And so we need to be cautious of that. And one of the problems, obviously, is that there are many people in the
Pentecostal and Charismatic Movement who would view you and I as hyper -Calvinists and would view us as being dry and dead because there is a greater formality and order in our worship.
There's nobody dancing around, there's nobody standing on pews speaking in tongues.
They would equate that with dead, and they've got a really unbalanced and unbiblical understanding of what spirit -filled means, don't they?
Well, of course, because again, the thing that you just now described, this idea of people running aisles or standing on tables or chairs and speaking in tongues, that's considered to be disorderly.
Right. And the Apostle Paul, he scolds the church at Corinth for disorderly worship.
So the idea of becoming disordered in our own gathering as a church so that we can then show forth the power of the
Spirit, the Spirit of God is not leading us to confusion and to disorderly worship.
He's actually moving us in the opposite direction of that. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now, and please use this time wisely.
Write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers, keeping in mind that the finances that come through their advertising is what keeps us in existence.
And also, send in your questions to Josh Bice on the gift of prophecy and how it is false and dangerous.
We also invite questions from those who disagree with Pastor Josh on this. We'll be right back.
Don't go away. I'm Dr.
Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.
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For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit
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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.
Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry at John MacArthur.
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That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.
God bless you. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,
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Before I return to Pastor Josh Bice and our conversation about modern -day prophecy and also the sufficiency and inerrancy of the
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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Pastor Josh Peiss, chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Pastor Josh, to make sure that we're not just preaching to the choir today,
I know some of the emphasis of your conference coming up has to do with how non -Pentecostal and non -Charismatic churches are being influenced by these movements, perhaps unconsciously, in the way we think, act, and worship.
If you could explain a little further about that. Sure, Chris, yeah, so, you know, it would not be profitable for us just to get together and just be an echo chamber at the conference, so we want to really talk about some of the ways in which the
Charismatic movement has influenced Evangelicalism in a more broad sense.
If you just look at the way that the church is worshiping, if you just look at the almost the individualistic sort of approach to worship, so you have people that are swaying back and forth and they're closing their eyes,
I mean, just ask yourself an honest question, why is it that someone would want to just stand and sing and close their eyes as they're singing?
Or turn off the lights and sort of create this feel within the church building that it's really just about you and how you feel and you have to listen to how the
Spirit of God is speaking to you. It takes the corporate aspect of worship away, and so there's so much of that that has been directly influenced by the
Charismatic movement. Not to mention, least of all, is this idea, you know, oftentimes you just hear just spun around in conversations in the lobby of the church or in small groups, but also in sermons where this idea of, well,
I just felt that God was telling me, or God told me to do this, and I obeyed
God, and that language flows right out of the Charismatic movement.
We just need to be honest about that to be able to trace it back and then to be able to put our finger on it and then say, well, this is actually how this is problematic and this is how this practice actually undermines the authority and the sufficiency of God's Word.
Now, that is an interesting phenomenon, and I've witnessed it many times where someone who may even be a strict, ardent cessationist will say something like, you know,
I was planning to preach on a text in Mark today, but God really impressed it upon my heart to give you another message from the book of Revelation.
Now, is that always a wrong thing? One thing that is hard to wrap my head around in regard to this controversy is that on one hand, we who are believers in God's sovereignty, we believe everything that happens by His divine orchestration and His predestinating power and His providence and so on.
So is it wrong to say things like, I believe God has led me to do this or say this, even if we are known to be a strict cessationist?
I don't think that it is a contradiction of a cessationist position to say that you believe that God was leading you to do something, but I do think it's something that we need to watch closely and we need to really put our finger on in terms of the nerve ending of that statement and ask honest questions.
Do we mean by that that God is leading us as we're reading the Bible and we're exercising biblical wisdom based on the decisions that are set before us in ways that we can honor
God with our gifts and with our lives and all of this for the glory of God?
Or are we looking for these inner promptings, these inner nudges, these secret whispers of the
Spirit? And I think that we need to press against that sort of idea and say, look, you shouldn't just be sitting around in a room in sort of like a spirit or a posture of meditation just looking to hear the
Spirit of God speak to you. He's not going to speak to you. But what He does do is
He actually illuminates His Word and He blesses the faithful reading and study of Scripture.
It is through the ministry of the Holy Spirit that we have the completed canon of God's Word. And it is through the
Scriptures that God is revealing Himself to us. Our triune God is revealing Himself to us. So it's the ministry of the
Spirit to lead us to the Bible, not away from the Bible. And sadly is the case,
Chris, and I know you know that this is true, but when you look at the works of experiencing
God, when you start looking at that type of workbook and all of the
Henry Blackaby literature that was so popular years ago, what that sort of book would teach is that you need to be listening for God to speak to you.
And then when you hear God speak to you, immediately write it down. Well, the problem with that is that that type of thought process is leading people to go away from the
Bible to hear God speak instead of to the pages of Scripture. And we as faithful Christians need to be like majoring in what
God has actually spoken to us in clear revelation that's recorded for us in His Word.
But then you go into these conference settings, Chris, and you hear these influential conference speakers and these authors and they stand on a platform and they say, you know,
I was out on my back porch yesterday and God spoke to me and was really just leading me to do this thing.
And I did this thing and it resulted in this outcome and everybody's so happy and it glorifies
God. And that sounds powerful when people talk like that.
And so as a result, you have people sitting there saying, man, I really wish God would speak to me that way.
I wish God would talk to me on my back porch. And so then you disciple people to be looking for these like voices, these whispers out of the clouds instead of like reading the
Word of God, exegeting the Bible and saying this is what God has said. Now this is what
I must do in light of God's revelation. Excellent. Let's see here.
We have Timothy in Riverhead, Long Island, New York.
Timothy says, there are many people who speak of the execution of John Hus as if they are describing a prophecy that he declared when it came to Martin Luther.
And I've heard this said even from Reformed pulpits. It is reported that John Hus prophesied, they will roast a goose now, but after 100 years, they will hear a swan sing and him they will have to endure.
Could this have been a prophecy about Martin Luther? It seems odd that he would be so specific about after 100 years.
Yeah, it's a great question. Obviously, I mean, there's what we call providence and then there's what we call prophecy.
I would classify, you know, Hus' statement within the realm of providence, not necessarily a true prophecy that was spoken.
So God did arrange for that sort of thing to take place, that you have
Martin Luther who's being, you know, he's in many ways coming to the very place where Hus was and made that statement.
And then, of course, he's seen as this swan who would sing, who would tell forth the word of God and who would be this wonderful reformer who would lead the people to God's word and God's word to the people in their own language, in the
German language. But again, I don't look to that sort of thing as a specific modern day prophecy.
I just see it as this is what the man said. And in God's good providence, look at what God did.
And he did this for what reason? Well, he did it not for the purpose of glorifying
Hus. He did it for the purpose of glorifying himself as well as all prophecies, by the way.
I mean, you can look at, you know, the definition of a prophet who's called a man of God or a servant or messenger or a seer, a man of the spirit, a watchman of the people of God.
And you can see all of these different occurrences of God speaking to the men of God, these prophets of old.
Just because God is speaking to a prophet of old doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to continue to speak in the same way to us in our present age.
We have the completed word of God. It is sufficient. It is authoritative. And so there is no longer this this seer, this man of the spirit, according to Hosea 9 -7.
There is no longer this this actual prophet who is raised up by God in our present hour because he has given us his word.
And so I would just classify that. And it's a great question. I would simply classify that as God's good providence, ordering the steps of men for his glory.
And we have an anonymous listener who asks, should we raise our hands in worship?
Sometimes I'm in Calvinistic churches that seem to replicate charismatic and Pentecostal churches without the tongues and other things like prophecy.
But they are still nonetheless looking like they are charismatic churches because nearly everyone has their hands raised.
Yeah, it's a great question. So for me personally, I don't have a problem with anyone that's going to raise their hands if they're in a time of worship.
My question would simply be a couple of things. Number one, what's causing the person to raise their hands?
Right. Is it the arrangement of the song? Is it a certain type of emotional feeling that they had when they were singing or is it based upon truth?
And then there needs to be another question asked. And of course, I've been in plenty of conference settings.
I see it at G3 Conference. It's in local churches where I preach on a regular basis across the country.
Right. I see people raise their hands during the worship service, and I'm not immediately offended by that.
But now my next question would be this. I see people typically raising their hands during certain songs, but I don't ever really see large groups of people raising their hands during the preaching or during the
Lord's table. That's interesting. So then the question would be, why is it that it's only relegated to the sphere of singing?
And so you would just have to ask yourself that honest question. So for me personally, I would not say
I'm going to bind someone's conscience and say you're not allowed to raise your hands in church. I think that that would be overstepping my role as a pastor.
But I do think it's very much a good practice for a pastor to say, ask yourself the question, why is it that you're raising your hands and why is it that you're raising your hands when you're raising your hands?
Yes. And don't Christians need to be very careful that they don't equate that physical motion and activity with being more spiritual in some sense?
Yeah, that's also true. So again, you have to ask yourself, do you do you believe that you're more spiritual because you're raising your hand when the person next to you is not raising his or her hand?
And then back to this other question, is this, when we're in corporate worship settings, are we doing things that are seen to be individualistic rather than corporate?
So again, it's like the idea of having a soloist singing in a church service, in a
Protestant church service. Would I say that that's necessarily sinful?
Well, I would not. But again, we have to sort of move away from this idea of performance driven worship services that are encouraging an individualistic approach to worship.
Like someone is up there individually worshiping on a platform with a microphone and I'm just merely a spectator.
The corporate worship service is designed for the people to be corporately gathering together to worship
God, not encouraging individualistic motions and forms of worship in the gathering of God's people.
So again, raising your hands and doing closing your eyes and turning off of the light so that you're just like it's just you and the stage person that's up there on the stage.
Again, I would I would just sort of push against that idea, turn the lights on, encourage everyone to be engaged corporately.
That's why we have what's called responsive reading at times, because it's not like well, it's just going to be an individual is going to stand up and do this spoken word thing.
No, like if the pastor's reading the Bible, you engage in reading the Bible with him.
Maybe not out loud, but there are times when we have, you know, responsive reading where the pastor may lead and then the congregation responds.
And then when we're singing the hymns, we're singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.
We're doing so how corporately, not individually. So again, to the to the question,
I would never say someone can't raise their hand and in worship of God in a worship service,
I would just simply ask, why is it that you're only doing it during the singing and not the preaching? Right. Why is it that you're doing it when you're doing it and how you're doing it?
So you just need to ask honest questions about your motives. And certainly people should rule out as a reason for doing that some kind of superstitious idea that and I know that I'm maybe insulting, insulting people, and that is not my intention, but I can't help but think that there are many people doing it, even though they would never use this terminology.
But it appears that they are thinking that by raising their hands, they have lifted up a
Holy Spirit antenna, that they are somehow connecting with the Holy Spirit in a more powerful and tangible way by doing that.
And in fact, I've been in charismatic churches where and I don't think
I've ever seen a man doing it, but you'll see at times women even waving the air into their faces as if they're somehow fanning the
Holy Spirit into their lungs. And it's treating the
Holy Spirit as if it's a an element of force rather than a person of the Godhead.
Yeah, perfect statement there, Chris. I mean, the Holy Spirit is God. He is actually
God and the way we speak of him matters. And so, again, if you just were to go on YouTube, it's not really hard to do this.
If you're just to go on to YouTube and you were just to watch some charismatic Bethel Hillsong sort of worship services, you're going to see all these practices.
It's going to be commonplace in those gatherings. And so when people watch those types of things and they go to those types of conferences, by the way, conferences, you are modeling something for local churches who are gathered.
That's critically important to remember. And you learn it's a learned behavior and then you take it back to your church and then you start doing it.
Well, where's where's the source of this? In many ways, it is flowing out of the
Pentecostal and the charismatic practices. And so, again, sometimes we will have a specific time of reading of a text of scripture and then the congregation will collectively and corporately respond with praise the
Lord or amen or something of that nature just to acknowledge the truth of the word that's spoken.
What if in some in some reform circles, you'll have the entire congregation that will hold their hands up as they recite a confession or as they recite the creed or as they recite, you know, a statement of praise to God.
There's nothing wrong with raising your hands. It's just ask yourself, what is the motive behind it?
That's really the question. In fact, nearly every if not every reformed pastor
I've ever witnessed concluding a sermon raises his hands during a benediction.
What would be the reason for that? Yeah, it's a it's a it's a practice that flows out of the scriptures whereby you have this idea of the raised hands of, you know,
God's people in forms of worship. But it's a statement of extending a blessing upon the people who are there.
And it's just just as well as oftentimes, you know, the pastor may hold up the
Bible as he reads it just so that there's a line of sight that people can see that I am speaking forth from God's word and the raising of a hand at this at the statement of a benediction, which is a statement of blessing upon the people.
That's really all that's happening there. But if you choose to not raise your hand when you do it, it doesn't mean that the blessing wasn't effective as well.
Now, one of the things going back to our main theme that opens up churches and individuals to such dangerous ideology and practice when it comes to modern day prophecy is that you really don't have a concrete reason for rejecting somebody's claim.
Of a revelation from God. Unless you are a cessationist and unless, of course, there are many
Pentecostals and Charismatics who will say, oh, but if it contradicts God's word, then we can reject it.
Well, sometimes prophecies are more ambiguous than that, where it might not necessarily be something that directly contradicts a teaching in Scripture.
And in fact, on a recent conversation
I heard where you had some cessationists having dialogue with Charismatics, they were bringing up some of the outlandish examples of prophecy, like Jesus appeared at the foot of my bed playing the saxophone, and both of the
Charismatics say, well, how do you really know that that didn't happen? Right.
So that's a real danger behind this, is that if you believe that God still divinely reveals new revelation to Christians, how are you going to put yourself in the position of authority to claim this person's revelation is false and this one's true?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it opens the door, as I said earlier in the conversation this afternoon, is it opens the door to the church to be manipulated.
And we just have to refuse to be manipulated by these schemes of man.
I'll tell you a little story about what happened recently. I was sitting in my office and one of our fellow staff members came back to my office and said, there's a man out here in the lobby that wants to talk to you.
And of course, he didn't have an appointment to speak to me. And I was really busy. But I said, yeah, of course,
I'll go out and speak to him. So I went out and there was an older gentleman standing there and he had a book in his hand.
And he introduced himself and said that he wanted to bring me this book.
And then he asked me if I knew the author. I did not. And he said, well, let me tell you a little bit about this book.
This man basically was awakened in the middle of the night by God and God told him to write this book.
And it outlines all of the problems that is in many ways facing
American culture with all of these crazy political schemes and and, you know, critical theories and ideologies.
And we need to be warned. And so I'm standing there looking at this older gentleman as he's explaining all of this to me.
And I said, sir, I said, listen to me. I said, I don't want to offend you.
You're my older brother. But here's what I would have you to know. I absolutely reject everything you just said.
I do not believe it's true. And he was stunned. He was floored. And I said, here's what
I do believe. I do believe that this man that wrote this book is passionate and he's burdened by a lot of the things that he sees in American culture today.
And he wants to warn the church about these things. Yes, I can. I can agree with that.
But I do not believe that God woke him up in the middle of the night and told him to write this book.
I just simply don't believe it. And then he again, he was just shocked. And I said, sir,
I said, I believe that if that's true, it undermines and it denies the key doctrine of biblical sufficiency.
And again, he's still stunned. And I said, just let me illustrate this for you. I said, sir, if I were to listen to you and I were to receive this book that you've given to me and then
I were to turn and say, I, I believe that God has told me to tell you that you're to take out your checkbook and write me a thousand dollar check today.
How would you respond to that? And he said, well, I would have to I would have to think long and hard before I wrote you a thousand dollar check.
And I said, but you don't have to think long and hard before driving across town to come meet with me and hand me a book.
By a man who claims to have heard direct revelation from God in the middle of the night. And he it was like it just the light bulbs were coming on, he could see the inconsistency of his position.
And to your point, Chris, if we if we believe in these these secret whispers of God, then we can easily manipulate people into doing all sorts of things.
That's simply not the word of God. Amen. And one thing that has come to greatly irritate me.
Is the false humility of some continuationists.
When they whether it is a sermon or maybe even more common, it is a song they have written or a poem they've written or whatever the case may be, this false humility of when someone.
Compliments them, wow, that was such a beautiful song, you are such a gifted person,
I mean, wow, you should do this for a living. That was an incredible the lyrics to that song are incredible.
Oh, no, don't say praise about me in regard to this song.
This is from God. That was the Holy Spirit gave me it gave me that song. I had nothing to do with it.
What they're really doing is they're elevating this piece of artwork to the level of it being directly from the mouth of God.
And they're claiming to be humble over it. If you follow what I'm saying, that really gets my craw as our parents or grandparents used to say.
Absolutely, it does. I mean, again, it is a false humility. We need to be clear that if we wrote a song or if we wrote a sermon for that matter to say, well, you know, dear brother, thank you for the compliment.
But really, it was all from God. Well, yes and no. I mean, it was
God led you to do it. Undoubtedly, he gave you the gifts to do it.
He gave you the ability, the intellect, the command of language to write a song or to write a sermon.
And hopefully you would sing the song or you would preach the sermon in the power of the Holy Spirit.
But it's not direct revelation from God. And we need to be clear about the distinction between direct revelation, because oftentimes this is such a confusing thing for people.
They think, well, if God spoke to Moses in a burning bush or if he spoke to Samuel in the dark of night or Elijah in a cave or John the
Baptist or whoever, then maybe God's speaking to me, too. And that's simply not the way it works.
God was always speaking to individuals, whether it's prophets or apostles, for the purpose of giving us his word that is transcending time and geographic location.
It's been preserved. And now it's still being used as the word of God in our present hour.
We just need to always remember that God had a purpose in his direct revelations. It wasn't a normative thing.
OK, we have to go to our final break. Don't go away. We'll be right back. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
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Chris Arnzen here, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
I strongly recommend a church I've been recommending as far back as the 1980s. Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.
They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
God in spirit and truth. They endeavor to maintain a God centered focus and to protect worship from the intrusion of carnal entertainments and distractions.
Reading, preaching and hearing the word of God, singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith, joy and sobriety.
Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at GCBC -NJ .org.
That's GCBC -NJ .org or call them at 908 -996 -7654.
That's 908 -996 -7654.
Tell Pastor Dunn you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.
Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,
Dr. Joe Morecraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.
Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is
Dr. Joe Morecraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Morecraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.
Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.
Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards. And Dr.
Joe Morecraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the
Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great
Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers.
Scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the
Triune God that continues in eternity. For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit
HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com
or call 678 -954 -7831. That's 678 -954 -7831.
If you visit, tell them Joe Roiligan, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener, from Attoy, in County Kildare, Ireland, sends you.
Hello, my name is Anthony Eugenio, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the
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Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.
Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.
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And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed Church that holds to the 1689
London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.
Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Iovineo and thanks for listening. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.
I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the
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Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew
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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.
I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak, and have grown to love,
Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the Dear Saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim
Christ Jesus the King, and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.
I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation, and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.
For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.
That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters, of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.
Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.
In the film Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt
That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners, and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.
God bless you. Chris Arnzen here.
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Always mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when you contact Buttafuoco & Associates. We're now back and we do have a listener in East Hope, Idaho, Winthrop.
And Winthrop says, I'm sorry, but I'm tuning in late and I may have missed something you said earlier.
Why is it that some cessationists do not believe that 1
Corinthians chapter 13 verses 8, 9, and 10 are a text to go to to refute continuationism?
Yeah, it's a good question there, Chris. I mean, you have, obviously, there are some issues there in those specific verses.
Love never ends, prophecies, they will pass away as for tongues, they will cease as for knowledge, it will pass away.
You have some differences of opinions on what it means there in this text related to prophecies and tongues ceasing.
But I do believe that the words that are being used there, specifically the language of cease, means to cease and it doesn't mean to cease for a season and then start back up.
And that's why it is that when you look at the Apostle Paul and all of the letters that he wrote in the
New Testament, you have all of the massive amounts of Paul's work after Corinthians, and you just don't see him talking about tongues and prophecy in the same way that he did there.
So you see the passing away of that gift even before the close of the canon.
And the reality is, Chris, as we survey church history, we don't really see the reoccurrence of tongues except among heretical groups from the close of the canon all the way to modern -day church history.
So you see the only reoccurrence is within the sphere of heretical groups, and it's a misuse of the actual meaning of the word tongue itself.
So, yeah, you'll have some variations of opinions, and what does it mean that the perfect comes, and you'll have various different positions on these verses.
But at the end of the day, I think it's very clear that not only has the gift of prophets ceased, and the gift of apostles ceased, but also these gifts that are associated with the prophets and the apostles, they have likewise ceased in our present hour.
Well, I'd like you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today. Well, I want most etched in the hearts and minds of your listeners,
Chris, the gospel of Jesus Christ, that it is only through Jesus Christ that someone can be saved.
We all deserve the wrath of God. We deserve the just penalty of sin, which is the wrath of God poured out upon us.
And the only means by which someone can be saved is not by becoming a Calvinist or a cessationist, but it's by coming to Christ and Christ alone, trusting in His finished work for us on the cross, whereby
He, as the great high priest, pleased God by offering up Himself as the sufficient sacrifice.
And Jesus said it best in John 14, 6, So if you're an unconverted church member, or if you're a pagan riding down the road today, listening to this episode on Iron Sharpens Iron, if you would repent of your sins and cast yourself upon the mercy of God, the
Bible says you will be saved. Hallelujah. And I want to remind our listeners of the websites that they need to have in order to get in contact with you and also to have more information on all of the events you're having, including the
Cessationist Conference, October 3rd through the 5th in Oklahoma. First of all, the
G3 Ministries website is g3men .org, g3men .org,
and the Praise Middle Baptist Church website for that fine congregation in Douglasville, Georgia, is praisemill .com,
and that is p -r -a -y -s -mill .com. And I really want to thank you so much,
Pastor Josh, for never failing to be an exquisite, a superb guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
I really look forward to frequent future returns by you as a guest here on this program.
My privilege, as always, Chris. I hope to see you and other listeners with us this coming up October for the
Cessationist Conference. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater