April 24, 2024 Show with Josh Buice on “Why Modern Prophecy is False & the Word of God is Inerrant & Sufficient”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 24th day of April, 2024.

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Praise Mill Baptist Church and the Cessationist Conference

But I am so delighted to announce the return of a dear friend to Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, a man who I love interviewing. His name is Pastor Josh Bice. He is the pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

He is an author. He is a highly sought-after conference speaker and founder and president of G3 Ministries. And today, we're going to be addressing a vital topic, which is also the theme of an upcoming conference, Why Modern Prophecy is False and the Word of God is Inerrant and Sufficient.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, Pastor Josh Bice.

Chris, it's great to be with you, as always. Thanks for the invitation.

Well, why don't you tell our listeners, first and foremost, about Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

Yeah, thank you. So Praise Mill Baptist Church is a Reformed Baptist church on the west side of Atlanta in Douglasville. It's a 182-year-old congregation. And I've had the privilege of serving as pastor of Praise Mill for these last 14 years.

Before that, I pastored out of state in Kentucky and Tennessee through the years of seminary. But interestingly enough, my wife and I grew up as children in Praise Mill. And so just a privilege in God's good providence to be able to come full circle and to serve the very congregation where my wife and I grew up as children.

And this is a confessional Reformed Baptist church?

That is correct. But now growing up, it wasn't. It was a Southern Baptist church. And so, you know, after my arrival here as pastor over these last 14 years, we determined that there was not a good path forward for us within the Southern Baptist Convention.

So we made the decision to separate from the SBC. But during those years, providentially, we had seen the rise of G3 ministries from this very campus, a ministry that I started as just a conference. And so in these recent years, there's been the development of the G3 church network.

So it just worked out well for us to be able to exit the SBC because of convictional matters and compromise in the SBC. And then to be able to partner with a healthy church network where we can encourage other pastors and be encouraged by other pastors and serve alongside other churches for ministry purposes.

So, yeah, that's a little bit about the history of our church.

If anybody wants more details about Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, go to PraiseMill .com. And that's spelled P-R-A-Y-S-Mill .com. And I'm assuming you would agree with me that even though Praise Mill Baptist Church has made the exodus out of the Southern Baptist Convention, that there are still a remnant of biblically faithful churches within that denomination.

Oh, yeah, most definitely, Chris. We have churches within the G3 church network that are still very much a part of the SBC. They're seeking to work for the health and the strength of that convention. So, yeah, I would totally agree with that.

Yeah, our mutual friend, Dr. Tom Askell, who runs the Founders Ministries, which is called that for a reason because all of the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention in the 19th century were thoroughgoing five-point Calvinists.

So there are still men taking a stand for truth there.

That's correct.

And I'm going to play right now a commercial for an upcoming event that you are heading and where you are speaking. And we'll have you discuss that as soon as the commercial has ended.

Why Modern Prophecy Is False and the Sufficiency of Scripture

The church today is infected with the influences of the charismatic movement.

God told me who I would marry. When God spoke to me, I, like, heard it so clear. As clear as I'm talking to you now, the Lord spoke to my heart.

God spoke to us audibly.

I hear the audible voice from God.

The word that the Lord gave me.

He told me that everything I was feeling in my spirit was correct.

I know that this is what the Holy Spirit has spoken to me.

That's the word God spoke to me. Charismatic theology has affected so much of our theology in ways that we don't often recognize.

Man, I tried for years to speak in tongues.

Don't speak in English. Don't think English. Yes, the man says it's weird, but the spirit says, hello. This is awesome.

Fake miracles, false tongues, and non-authoritative prophecy.

A prophet is one who has God's words put in his mouth.

If you are not earnestly desiring spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, you are sinning.

They don't have a single prophet who has been 100 accurate.

What does the New Testament say prophecy is? What does the New Testament say tongues are? What does the New Testament say the gifts of healing are? Let's compare them to the contemporary charismatic Pentecostal movement, and what you find out is the two don't match.

It teaches people to look away from the Bible to some experience.

Deep down, charismatics are riddled with doubts about what they believe.

Is God's word sufficient? Is God's word enough?

Dreams, visions, those sort of things inspired me to love Jesus, to obey him.

Join us in October of 2024 for the Cessationist Conference. The church must once again stand with a renewed confidence in God's sufficient word. We hope to see you there.

Powerful commercial. It's going to be held October 3rd through the 5th. And if you could tell us more details about exactly where that will be held.

Sure, Chris. So this is the Cessationist Conference, and it's going to be held in Mustang, Oklahoma at the First Baptist Church. And that is where Michael Staton is the pastor. And so we're looking forward to being with that congregation on that campus.

And really, in many ways, if you just look at the location, you can see much of the charismatic movement is very much, you know, located and has been historically connected to Oklahoma.

Or Roberts University.

Yeah, absolutely. And so this is a wonderful opportunity for us to go into that region and to be able to have a conference on this very subject with, you know, different speakers who are going to be there with me as well.

So you have Phil Johnson, Mike Riccardi, Justin Peters. We have Conrad Mbewe coming from Africa, as well as Tom Bennington. And so, you know, Scott Daniel and Virgil Walker will also be there as well.

And so when you think about the goal of this conference, it's going to be really, in many ways, to unpack what you and I will be talking about over the next, you know, hour and a half, two hours.

Amen. And you mentioned my dear friend, Dr. Conrad Mbewe, who has been a friend of mine since 1996, the church where I was a member on Long Island, New York, before moving to Pennsylvania, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York was the very first church in the United States where Conrad preached.

But he has some startling information about what is going on under the umbrella of Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement in Africa, because, you know, it's interesting. Very often when you ask a Pentecostal or a charismatic, you know, why aren't people being raised from the dead and why aren't limbs, non-existent limbs being restored to people in your movement like they were in the New Testament?

If you think that, if you believe that your movement is an exact replica and a continuation of the New Testament sign gifts, why aren't those things happening? Very often you'll hear, well, they're happening in Africa.

Well, what is happening in Africa is something that makes the Pentecostal and charismatic movement here in the United States look like kindergarten, because there is such a satanic mixture of the witch doctors and pagan religion with the Pentecostal and charismatic movement there that it is really frightening when you hear Conrad explain it.

Yeah, it certainly is. It's a massive problem and sadly is the case is that it was exported from the soil of America to the various different countries on the continent of Africa. And so, again, we need to speak clearly on this subject.

And unfortunately, the charismatic movement is not going away. It is very much here to stay, it seems. And sadly so, Chris, as you well know, in many ways it's been sort of coddled by modern day evangelicalism.

And so if you just sort of look at evangelicalism from the outside, from like a big tent sort of view, what you see is you see the fingerprints of the Pentecostal and the charismatic movement all over the windows, if you will, all over the various different functions within evangelicalism.

And it's really sad.

Yes, it is. And I'm sure you would agree that the focus of our discussion today on prophecy, modern day prophecy being false, that is above all of the other differences that you and I and our theological kinfolk, that is by far the most serious problem that we would have as far as a belief and practice within Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement is the claimed gift for prophecy.

Would I be correct in that? You would agree with me on that?

Yes, I would, actually. And if you think about it, you have these what you call apostolic gifts or miraculous gifts. And some of those gifts are what we call revelatory gifts, which means that they are communicating what God has spoken directly to people.

And this certainly did happen. And we see this with the gift of prophecy, but we also see it with the gift of tongues in the New Testament setting. But those gifts are no longer given to the church because they were signed gifts.

And so we have a complete, sufficient and authoritative word. So any of these revelatory gifts, if they are said to continue in our present hour, they are undermining the doctrine of biblical sufficiency.

Yes, because if you need new revelation, a fresh new wind, as some of them are known to say, you're saying, you're admitting, even if you're unconscious of this fact, that the Bible doesn't contain enough for us.

Correct? Yeah, absolutely. You're in many ways confessing the fact that, you know, God hasn't said all that he needed to say. And so he needs another addition. And that addition is not necessarily in print form.

It's more in, you know, audible voice or impressions upon the spirit of a person who would then speak forth the word of God today. And that's massively dangerous.

Now, I also assume that you would agree with me as serious, as seriously as we take this issue and as vehemently opposed as we are to continuationism or continuism or charismatic phenomena, we still believe that there are many genuine, regenerate, born again brothers and sisters in Christ in the midst of this movement.

Now, obviously, we also believe that there are many wolves in sheep's clothing and false converts and false professors. But we would not immediately discount and withhold the hand of fellowship to those professing to be charismatic and Pentecostal necessarily.

Am I right on that? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously, you know, you're going to have a spectrum, if you will, if you want to use that language to talk about, you know, people on the spectrum of the charismatic or the Pentecostal movement.

But as you well stated earlier, it is problematic because, you know, if you have one person that's saying, well, I'm hearing from God and then what they say doesn't come to pass. But their doctrine of the church and their doctrine of, you know, you know, ecclesiology or the doctrine of, say, the sovereignty of God may seem to be pristine.

Their soteriology may be in proper form, but yet they're off base here. There is still an overlap with those others on the far other side of the spectrum who are actually wolves that are saying that they are, too, hearing from God.

And yet what they say doesn't come to pass as well. And so we must be clear that, yes, there is a there is a spectrum and there are genuine brothers that are, you know, claiming to, you know, hear from God or claiming to possess these apostolic gifts.

And we would still be able to call them brothers in Christ and sisters in Christ. However, there is and it must be stated, there is an overlap between what they're saying and the false teachers as well.

And therein lies the problem.

Yes, and I think this would be I usually don't take listener questions this quickly, but I think this will help set the stage for what we are discussing. Let's see here, I'm looking I'm looking for a question that I received.

Let's see. Well, I can't find it right now, so I'm going to go back to it when I when I locate it. But as far as the the gift of prophecy, that commercial that I played that you produced, there was some chilling things included in that, including a pastor warning his congregants that if they don't actively pursue the gift of prophecy, that they're in sin.

What kind of pressure is that to put on people to either consciously or unconsciously fake such things to perhaps identify any thoughts that pop into their head as coming directly from God? And yet they're they're it's a delusion just because they're trying to be in a right relationship with their pastor, with their fellow congregants and with God himself.

I mean, this is really ridiculous and wicked peer pressure, isn't it?

Oh, it's it certainly is. And and the problem with that is that that the individual that made that statement was not just some, you know, fringe false prophet that should be discounted as some, you know, media.

This is a well-respected man that has very much been received in, you know, conservative evangelical circles and conference, you know, circles. And that individual is none other than Sam Storms. And so, you know, he he has been, you know, in an open reform.

He calls himself a reformed continuationist or a reformed charismatic. And he's not just saying that he's open, but cautious. He has actually written an entire series of articles in response to our publication of the cessationist documentary last year in which he actually criticizes what we said about him in the documentary.

We put him in the same sort of classification as you've you've heard of others like Wayne Grudem and others who would call themselves open, but cautious or others within evangelical circles calling themselves open, but cautious.

And he actually went as far as to say he's not open, but cautious. He's actually very much open and he's not cautious because he says he's not going to be cautious about any gifts that come from the spirit.

And this is massively confusing to a lot of people. And we need to deal with what the Bible says about the subject of prophecy. The sad reality is Wayne Grudem and Sam Storms and these individuals like those voices continue to drive the idea that there's one sort of prophecy that happened in the Bible times, specifically in the Old Testament or even maybe through apostles in the New Testament.

But today's prophecy is is what they might call potentially fallible or even non-authoritative prophecy. And that is massively distorting the definition of biblical prophecy.

There's no example of that anywhere in the Old or New Testament, is there?

There is no example of it. The only that the only criteria that we have, according to God's word, is to evaluate the legitimacy of the prophet's words by whether or not what he said comes to pass, right?

It doesn't come to pass. And obviously there was the death penalty, according to the law. And so this is massively troubling to to purport this this new strange definition of prophecy. It simply doesn't align itself with the word of God.

And the extra fear that must be instilled in the hearts and minds of congregants who are members of churches professing to actually practice modern day revelation and prophecy and instill within the congregants that they should be seeking the ability to do that themselves.

The fear of disagreeing or critiquing your pastor especially when he's not just saying this is my understanding of scripture. This is not just my understanding of theology and doctrine. This is from God.

So if you put yourself in a position where you are questioning the validity of these things that are being said, you're disagreeing with God. I mean, yeah, this is really scary stuff.

Well, it is because it opens the church that it really opens the front door of the local church to manipulation. And so, again, it's like lying down the ace of spades on the table. And there is no other there is no greater card that could be played than the ace of spades.

And so to say God told me and then and now we're to respond to this. I mean, we can't just say no to God. I mean, if God said it, we have to listen to it. Right. So it just opens up the door of the church to false prophets who manipulate the people and ask for money and seed offerings and all sorts of things on the basis of God told me that language is not only problematic, I would argue that it uses the Lord's name.

In vain. Amen. And by the way, we are going to our first commercial break. And Joe in Shippensburg, I found your question, so I will read it to Pastor Bice when we return from the first break. And if anybody would like to join Joe in Shippensburg, Pennsylvania, with your own question, our email address is Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at Gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are a member of a Pentecostal or charismatic church. You're starting to wonder if you should be still a member of such a church. You're starting to think that what you are witnessing around you may be fake, may be the activities of charlatans or just misguided Christians.

And you don't want to identify yourself publicly at this point. We would understand that would be a reason to remain anonymous. And you might even be the pastor who is going through a journey of your own questioning the validity of this.

And by the way, Pastor Bice, you might find this fascinating. Years ago, when I conducted Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on Long Island, New York, out of WNYG Radio in Babylon, Long Island, a listener in the audience when I was discussing the very topic that we are addressing today was a charismatic pastor who became convicted that he was teaching falsely.

And he not only removed himself from member of the church where he was pastoring, he stepped down from the pastorate and left that congregation with a loving reason that he was providing for the elders and congregation.

But he eventually joined a theologically reformed cessationist church. So you never you never know who's listening.

But yeah, well, I welcome yeah, I welcome questions from anyone who might be listening, including pastors.

Yeah. So please, if it's a general question, however, not a personal and private one, please give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence. We'll be right back. Don't go away.

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So please go to RoyalDiadem .com today and mention Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. We are now back with Pastor Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia, who is also the founder and president of G3 Ministries.

We are discussing how all prophecy today is false and why the Bible is in there insufficient. If you have a question, send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And we have a question from Joe in Shippensburg, Pennsylvania.

I work with a Pentecostal colleague who very frequently is trying to convince me of his beliefs. The biblical verse he quoted to me recently has stumped me, not in that it proves that prophecy and tongues exist today, but it seems to challenge the idea that most cessationists have that tongues in the New Testament era were always real languages spoken to others that were not already known by the evangelist, that it was a miraculous gift from God to the evangelist that was a real known language, not to himself, but to others.

The text that I'm speaking of is in First Corinthians chapter 14, starting with verse one, Pursue love, yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people, he has that emphasized, but to God.

For no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries, but the one who prophesies speaks to people for edification, exhortation, and consolation. So please explain this. Do you believe that this is referring to a known language in the New Testament era?

That's an excellent question, because on a surface level, it does seem like this is one of those angelic languages that people were, at least in that day, speaking to directly to God that had no clear benefit to those surrounding them.

So if you could explain that, Pastor Josh.

Yes, so I'll definitely be happy to answer the question. Obviously, the topic of our conversation, Chris, is centered primarily upon prophecy itself. But tongues, in this specific time period, would have been in the category of what we call a revelatory gift.

So tongues would have been used for the purpose of doing what? Of explaining or delivering information from God to people. So he gives a very specific, you know, understanding of how this was to be practiced.

And so, you know, obviously there's there's the idea of, you know, not being disorganized, being orderly in worship. If you go on down in First Corinthians 14, you will see that, obviously, he talks about the fact that there was to, you know, all things were to be done for the purpose of what?

Building up. And if anyone's speaking a tongue, let there be only two or three at the most. And in each turn, in other words, one at a time, not just speaking over the top of one another, and then let someone interpret.

So just to be clear, there is not one specific Bible verse that can be supplied that actually reveals the fact that tongues are what we see in this modern practice of gibberish. OK, there's just not. The word itself that's being employed in the in the Greek language is actually a word that means a known dialect.

That's why it is very clear later in First Corinthians 14 that talks about let someone interpret. Everything is to be done for the purpose of what? For building up. Now, if you go back in the context, you'll see that it's clear that what was happening here is that Paul is giving a rebuke to the church at Corinth for their disordered worship, for their competition with one another to try to have power and authority by having these supreme gifts.

And so there's some use of hyperbole that's being employed by the apostle Paul, where he talks about, you know, obviously, you know, someone speaking in the tongues of of angels or or whatever it might be, that language is considered to be hyperbole.

And it's for the purpose of of an intended effect to show the people that, you know what, even if you could speak this way, it's not for the purpose of building up the body. What you should be doing is building up the body.

And so there is an ongoing repetition of this idea of edification and building up that is all throughout this chapter and all the way back through to chapter 12. And so it's a corrective letter because of the the practices that were being employed there in the church at Corinth.

So, yeah, this is not some sort of proof text of heavenly language or speaking in the spirit or speaking in the tongues of angels and all of those sorts of things that you will oftentimes hear charismatics refer to.

It's always a known language and it would it would always be employed in such a way that someone could actually understand that language in the congregation and then speak forth the word of God to the church that would have been gathered there.

So it's not just some gibberish, as we often hear in our present day.

Yes, and it's interesting that very often Pentecostals and charismatics go to first Corinthians 14 to prove the validity of what they do. And yet it's a rebuke of the misuse of this activity. And I have never I mean, especially when I was a young Christian searching for truth or should I say a young person searching for truth and being drawn by God before I was a member of a biblically solid church, I had visited many Pentecostal and charismatic churches and still do from time to time if a friend invites me or if there's some kind of an event that would be appealing or important for a person of any theological persuasion to be to be present there.

But I have never experienced and I'm sure this probably exists somewhere, but I've never experienced a Pentecostal or charismatic worship service where every instance of tongue speaking is interpreted.

And most of the time you will hear dozens to hundreds of people babbling at the same time. And you don't see people from the pulpit correcting them as Paul was correcting people. So it is right. It is a strange phenomenon.

Yeah. And then again, even if it even if someone could stand up and claim to be able to interpret the gibberish that's being spoken in these in these charismatic circles, the actual gibberish doesn't align itself with the actual word for tongue in the New Testament, which is a word that means a known language, not not an unknown language, not some jibber jabber or gibberish.