March 14, 2018 Show with David Ould on “The Transgender Controversy: The Response From The Sydney, Australian Anglicans”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 14th day of March 2017.

I'm 2018. Sorry about that. And for those of you who are Expecting to hear my dear friend. Dr. Tony Costa on the program today. He is the professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary and we had originally planned to do a program where he was going to give an assessment of my Radio debate that I had with James Bogle who is a Roman Catholic Attorney as they call them barristers over there in the UK.

I was a guest along with mr. Bogle on the UK radio program unbelievable and the interview developed into a debate between myself being a former Roman Catholic and mr. Bogle being a former Protestant and Myself having converted to biblical Protestantism and mr. Bogle converting to Roman Catholicism.

It started as just a discussion and then and then evolved into a debate and We were going to assess that that has been moved to this Friday. So actually this Friday and This coming Monday because we're gonna break it over to parts.

So just write that down in your calendar for dr Tony Costa this Friday and This coming Monday as well. But today I'm so delighted to have returning to iron sharpens iron radio David old. He is senior associate minister at st. John's Anglican Cathedral in Parramatta, Australia, and I'm sure he's going to correct me on the pronunciation of that a biblically faithful theologically conservative historically reformed and confessionally Calvinistic body Who will address the very timely topic the transgender controversy the response from the Sydney Australian?

Anglicans and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back the iron sharpens iron radio David old.

Thank You Chris for that incredibly kind welcome. I didn't recognize myself.

Well.

The last time that we had you on the program you were a rector at another congregation and this is a fairly recent development in your ministry. Tell us something about st. John's Anglican Cathedral in.

Parramatta and am I pronouncing Parramatta correctly? Yes, parramatta parramatta. So yeah, we're out here in Sydney, Australia. We are part of that but that rest of humanity that somehow manages to exist outside the United States.

So parramatta is um, it's it's in the it's in the Sydney Basin. It's it's out to the west of the Sydney CBD and it was the original Seat of the colony. So when the British came and colonized on Australia over 200 years ago now they first landed near what is the Sydney CBD, but they soon moved inland where I think the Land was much much better and parramatta.

This the River of Eels literally in the local aboriginal language. And so I was asked last year by the senior minister of the cathedral here, which is a Regional Cathedral within the Diocese of Sydney.

I was asked if I would come and join the staff. And we considered that and then this year about two months ago. I came and joined the staff. So I've gone from being the rector So which is the senior minister of a small parish in the southwest of Sydney to being on the staff of this Busy bustling Cathedral Church, which is a lot of fun.

But I'm only just beginning to get my head above water, but it's great and we're in the middle of a hugely expanding Second CBD in Sydney and all the challenges and excitement that comes with that.

Well, praise God and for anybody wanting to explore further Information about st. John's Anglican Cathedral over there in Parramatta, Sydney, Australia You can go to st. John's Cathedral org dot a you.

That's right. That's st. John's Cathedral org dot e you a you. And these. Yes. Yeah, and the saint is abbreviated st and there's no period. Yeah. Let me just announce our email address if anybody wants to join us on the air with a question about the transgender controversy.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and I could obviously see this subject lending itself To the great possibility that people may have personal and private questions.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris arnzen at gmail .com. If it's not a personal and private question Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence before we go into the heart of the matter.

Sydney Anglicanism and the Cathedral at Parramatta

Can you? describe how the.

Sydney.

Area as far as Anglicans are concerned would be Set apart and different from places like Brisbane and other areas of Australia.

Sure, so I'm. Put most simply this is probably the most robustly thoroughly conservative diocese in In Australia, that's not to say that there aren't some other great conservative diocese in Australia as well.

But Sydney because of its size and history Has that has that status? Thoroughly evangelical. It's one of the few Diocese apart from a couple of others in Australia where I'd be confident to say to someone pretty much every local Church is going to be evangelical and not just evangelical but but Mostly reformed in one way or another there's obviously always going to be some exceptions.

But I'm compared to some other diocese and certainly compared to What is the Episcopal Church in the United States where most of your listeners will be it is a million worlds apart. I think what we are here is is far more faithful to the original Formation of the Church of England at the Reformation era.

That's that's that's the basic nutshell there's some history about why that happened mostly to do with the chaplains that came out on the first fleet and the constitution of the Anglican Church of Australia.

Just the geography of Australia where our major cities are so far apart from each other that you kind of get a little bit of Isolation and you get to preserve the culture in a place. But but that's where we're at.

It's a delightful place to do ministry. It has its challenges. We have a very very very secular Population around us. But um, it's great. I love being here. We've been here for 14 years.

Praise God. And how close are you to Perth? The reason why I ask is that my church or the church where I'm a member. I should never say it's my church. Yeah, I have. I am NOT an office bearer and I know that it's the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's not the church anybody in the congregation, but the church where I am a member. Since I moved from New York to Pennsylvania Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which is a confessionally reformed Baptist Church belonging to the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America.

We have a church plant that one of our Former members is involved in as the pastor there in Perth. So I was wondering how close to Sydney you are to Perth.

Well, it's a short walk To the train, which I'd have to take to the airport. To then get on a five-hour flight for a transcontinental flight from Sydney, which is on the east coast of Australia to To Perth which is on the west coast.

It's equivalent I think of traveling from New York to Los Angeles and in the same way quite. Why you'd want to do that is beyond me.

Well to go to the Reformed Baptist Church plant.

Of course! And can there be a more reformed church possible than a Reformed Baptist Church?

And.

Well, one of the things that we are specifically going to be discussing today along with the issue of Transgenderism in general we are really taking our information primarily from a report from the Social Issues Committee of.

The.

Sydney Australian Diocese of the Anglican Church and Who were specifically involved in developing? This document this report. I know that you are not an official spokesman for the Sydney Australian Diocese.

But I know that you will be providing some very helpful information. And with coming with great knowledge and first-hand experience with the document. So if you could tell us who exactly Developed this and why specifically they developed it other than perhaps Obviously just bringing this very difficult Issue to the attention of the Christian community there and what a Christian response to this very comparatively new issue in the history of mankind and how we are to Respond and interact with this issue.

Sure. So the Diocese of Sydney Diocese is how we how we did Translate it. But again, you choose your own way Chris the Diocese of Sydney has its own a whole bunch of different committees. That come out of what we call the synod the synod is our church parliament.

We meet once every year for about five days. I have a number of committees. So, you know a doctrine commission and that kind of thing and a social issues committee. Which we look to to write reports on social issues.

The social issues committee was asked to prepare a report on gender identity so looking at the whole Transgender issue which of course like in the United States has just become a big big thing and we can talk in a bit About how we've arrived at the situation where this it seems possible to think that a man might be a woman and then the social issue committee what it did is it set up a Subcommittee which is often the way that we'll do things and it drafted in a number of people to help Write that write that report.

So it was chaired by a wonderful lady called Claire Smith, who is a an outstanding theologian conservative well thought through on a number of issues not least on gender and Personhood has has done a whole bunch of work in that area already.

We were joined by two medical professionals. One was a lady called dr Megan best who is a practicing doctor and researcher and also professor. Dr. Patricia. We're a coon. Who is the most wonderful? Older Sri Lankan woman who is a sexologist.

There is nothing I tell you Chris There is nothing better than sitting in a room full of 200 clergy having a a old just just retired Sri Lankan woman in a sari talked to you about your sexual responses.

And how the brain works when you are aroused and I don't mean to offend you or your listeners but you go understand this is the this is like she lives and breathes this stuff and she she um, she's Incredibly helpful and has written a number of books For teenagers and for parents and so forth and it's a respected professor at the University of Sydney.

Is she coming from this. Is she coming from a more conservative if not biblical that so she's not a Sri Lankan.

Dr. Ruth Westheimer, I don't know. She um, she actually is a member of the church at st. St. John's Parramatta. She's a lovely lovely lady. Loves the Lord Jesus Christ loves his word and has ended up in this in this interesting field of sex.

Just talking about sex and how your brain works and all kind of stuff. So very very knowledgeable. Then they invited myself and another Licensed but clergyman, but actually he's not working in parish ministry at the moment called Nicholas mole.

And I think that's everybody. Yes, I think it is. And we got together and and divide worked out what the issues were did some research together started drafting a report and. The end result is on what you see before you it went through a number of revisions with us.

And then it went back to the wider Committee itself where we met with the original social issues committee and did a little bit more drafting and work. Just to tighten a few things up. And then it was received by our synod.

Last October in your fall along with has to be said a paper by the Doctrine Commission. Which just looked purely at the doctrine and got into some Some in-depth thought about the doctrine, but this is a wider the paper.

We're talking about today is a wider Paper. It deals with a whole bunch of different stuff that we'll be able to talk through together.

Well since I'm very interested in raising the ratings of my radio program tell this Sri Lankan sexologist that I would love to have her as a guest because I don't know it would be fantastic. Chris. You would love her.

I would know I can't even think of another sexologist let alone a Secular one other than the dr. Roost Westheimer, which I'm not even sure if she's with us anymore but a conservative Bible-believing.

Person.

I don't say that to ridicule her quite on the contrary and I'm not laughing in ridicule either. I'm just She's no we many of us just know her as auntie Pat. She's just a lovely lovely lady and has decided to spend her life serving the Lord in this area and doing it.

So well, well, I'm so proud to be her minister. It seems to be something that would be very Needed in our day and age when there are so many problems involving sex and to have a voice that is not only medically Knowledgeable but also One who is a Christian?

Yeah, a true Christian.

Well, I think the strength of this paper notwithstanding that we've gone into some of the biblical stuff quite Well is that you've got two absolute experts in the field Medically and academically and you'll see that in the paper later on when we talk through some of them stuff on medical Approaches and the a theology that's the origin and and the actual getting the medical view of what gender dysphoria actually is.

I think that's what makes this paper. So robust. It is really clear biblically, but also it is it has taken the very latest research on on this whole phenomenon and Distilled it in a really helpful accessible way that hopefully we can get through to your your listeners not least this morning.

Yeah this morning here in Sydney this afternoon for you. In fact.

We may have to do a couple of programs on on this subject to adequately address All the points that are in this report. But if obviously the best place to start for us is where your report starts, what is sure.

And gender?

Sure. Well transgender is Simply put when you have a man or a woman who presents In their physical self and obviously that Genetically underlying that as a male or female and yet perceives themselves to be the opposite or an indeterminate gender and and so we We call that now gender dysphoria.

That is to say that it used to be that the psychologists would say simply the the thought that you might be The opposite gender was sufficient for us to talk about something that's going wrong, but now we talk about the dysphoria that is to say the the experience of distress associated with having a Psychological or emotional gender identity that doesn't match your biological sex.

More technically transgender is is the umbrella term not just for those people but for those who then want to express The gender with which they identify that so that so a man may dress in women's clothes Or may actually then engage in cross hormone therapy or even sex reassignment Surgery, I think the important thing to stress at this point and I'm reading directly from the report is it's not about it's not about sexual orientation.

So there's some confusion here. I think it's important that our listeners distinguish those two things in their mind. So transgender people can be straight or lesbian or guy or gay or bisexual In relation to their subjective gender identity so, you know, you could get a man who is attracted to women who then Transitions who remains attracted to women and so in a sense you might argue that they're Their sexual orientation has changed from being heterosexual to homosexual.

So just set those things aside. It's not about that. It's about their identity of themselves in who they believe themselves to be.

Yes, the interesting thing about this sin. Which I'm sure you would agree that in spite of any psychological problem that is involved here that it is a sin. It's the first one that I'm aware of. Where at least in Contemporary society in the 21st century where those who are involved in this or experiencing this.

Are.

Also calling it By a medical term that reveals that there is a problem the gender dysphoria. I've heard even Bruce Jenner Say that he has gender dysphoria and and other folks as well. Whereas those that are Involved in the sin of homosexuality typically would be outraged in our day and age By the mere suggestion that they have something medically or psychologically wrong with them and I know that that yes.

I know that that was not always the case though. I know that that there. Yeah, I'm that's right. So like homosexual Attraction the definitions in in the DSM have have changed whether they've changed in alignment with research.

Not political maneuvering is probably something we can debate a long long time I know where I stand on that I might just go back a little bit to the language of sin that you've used before Chris and without wanting to in any way diminish The sense that for someone that's experienced gender nonconformity that something has gone wrong.

I think we want to be careful about the language of sin at this stage and maybe I'm gonna lose most of your listeners. Even at the start, but I think like any other activity that you and I might carry out I think we need to distinguish between the the attraction to something the temptation even internally to do something And the actual carrying out of it.

So I think there are questions around whether it's can we say it's sin for someone just to live in a male body, but Experience the sense that they think that they're female. Is that is that in itself?

Sinful or is it the decision to act upon it in the same way that you might say to a homosexual person? Someone that experiences same-sex attraction. Is it sin simply to to experience that attraction or is it sin to act upon it?

And I think in the same way we've got to make a careful distinction here. Now, don't get me wrong. And we'll talk about the theology in a while. This is this is another effect of the ravages of sin Across the world and in the entire creation is corrupted in many in various ways and here's just another expression of it.

But I think we have to be careful about Distinguishing between what people are feeling that they may not be able to help and Whether they're going to act upon that and our report tries to gently tease that apart.

As as we move forward well when it comes to Sexual issues whether they are heterosexual or homosexual or other. Even lust. I mean Jesus Said that even someone who thinks impurely of a woman in his heart has committed adultery already.

And it also. The scriptures also describe the fact that Men and women burning in their hearts for one another is a sign of judgment upon them. Yes, and that they are being turned over to their own lusts.

There's never from what I can see in the scriptures a neutral position on sexuality when it comes to somebody who is Outside of the bonds of marriage having any sexual activity whether in thought or deed other than their own spouse.

Sure, but if I might just push back gently. If we can work out what the what the underlying cause is of of of being gender non-conforming. Then we can work out Quite how it fits into that into and I agree with you.

But we can work out quite how it fits into into that pattern. So again going back to a homosexual person. Yes, they may to quote Romans one they may they may burn with passion one for another but there's a distinct difference isn't there between a Man who says and therefore I will give in to that Passion and another man who says no in Christ I will I will See my identity in the Lord Jesus Christ and I will not act upon that passion that I feel in the same way that you.

And I I mean the Lord Jesus Christ skewers as an adultery doesn't he Chris? He says if I look at another woman with lust in my heart that I've committed adultery in my heart now you and I both know that there is a Big difference between that that first and second look that we might give it a woman walking past us on the street.

With Joe by try and say, you know, I've made a vow with my eyes not to look twice as a lady. But um, we still do right and yet there's a difference between that that initial impulse. And then you and I going and booking a motel room and inviting her for a weekend away, right?

It's it's so so that distinction I think we just want to just very carefully tease out in this area because What we've got around us is it is a great number of men and women who through no decision of their own Find themselves their experiences that they find themselves.

Their perception is they're in a male body for example, but they think that they're a female now. That's just a situation that they're presented with. How they are that is the ravages of sin upon the world.

The general corruption of the creation how they then respond to that. That is then the question for us Chris, and I think it's just important We tease that out. Otherwise, we're gonna have a bunch of people walking around who for whom we we've got to be careful about our language.

You've got to be pastorally sensitive about this if we simply say ah, that's sin. Not in a nuanced way We're gonna do some damage because there'll be a bunch of people who are genuinely have dysphoria over this that is to say they are Distressed that they feel this way.

And they don't want to and so we want to help them move forward and move forward in the right direction.

Not not in the wrong direction. Yes, and I'd like you to go through some of the specifics like for instance the Biblical and contemporary lenses and so on. But one one one final thing. I just wanted to add.

Yeah.

From my own point of view here as we go back and forth on this issue when you say through no decision of their own we cannot really know that for certain because There are things that may have begun to be Cultivated and toyed with in the minds of people even when they're very young sexually that may evolve or devolve Into something much more harmful and much greater and much more of a damaging thing in their lives just as For instance, you know you to take to take an extreme example.

You have serial killers sometimes when they are giving their Testimonies from a jail cell of what happened to them. They will often say that well, I just began Looking at pornographic Magazines which escalated to films and then they got boring with the heterosexual stuff.

So it keeps going and going and going until it becomes not only homosexuality but brutality and and sadomasochism and and and. So when somebody is claiming to be Transgender, how can we know that they that they did not develop that way because of sinful choices to cultivate?

Through fantasy and other ways. Thing that became a snowball if you will.

Well.

The report and we can come to it in due course the report does have a whole section on on the Atheology that is to say the origins of it and we discuss in detail the evidence that we do have on whether it's Biological whether it's environmental and I think it's fair to say at this point the jury is out on it, although to read the report you can see a Great number great amount of work has been done, but we don't really have any idea yet in the in the academic field quite 100

What what what causes this what causes this to happen? And as I say that I'm not discounting the spiritual aspect to it But I'm just saying it is I want to just gently say it is a complex area. And we need to we probably all need to understand it better As we as we seek to to apply the biblical lens to it.

Why don't we talk about where it's come from Chris? That's probably the Culturally where it's come from because that's probably a fascinating. Yes.

We'll have you do that as soon as we come back from the first break. Is that I want to interrupt you in mid-sentence. Sure, so we're gonna go to our first break and then as soon as we come back we will have you.

Press forward in the in the best direction that you think we should so don't go away. We'll be right back with David old and more of our discussion on Transgenderism right after these messages from our sponsors.

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We are discussing transgenderism a Christian response to this and of course not all Christians are going to agree with exactly how we are to respond to this but we are specifically addressing the response from the Sydney Australian Anglicans and if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and David before I go to any of the listener questions week because we already have some. Can you please tell our listeners about where this? comes from.

Sure. So simply put this is an outworking of the querying of understanding of how society and institutions work. Which we've seen expressed in in other ways not least in in the homosexual movement. But now is working its way out to its natural conclusion across all aspects of gender.

Identity. Now when I say the word queering, I don't just mean the word queer that's used of Homosexual people sometimes derogatively sometimes not. I'm talking about that broader sense in which. People who are pursuing this agenda.

Sometimes called I think these days social Marxism and I think it's quite clear why that is from from the way that it's constructed. Want to deconstruct Institutions and structures that previously were taken for granted.

So, um, let me just read you a little a tiny paragraph from a paper that we that we looked at together I found really helpful for describing this. And it's referenced in our in our paper quote queer theorists see gender as an Institution by which they mean a social convention or arrangement sustained by a set of accepted Determinative ideas or norms.

It is for this reason that gender must be queered because it is a harmful institution that forcibly frames society's subjects. Queer theory seeks to undermine the view that the only Existence is that which falls within the boundaries set by the institution of gender that is ordered by nature or biology.

More simply put queer theory argues directly against natural law you and I might say well a man is a man. He has an X and a Y chromosome. He has certain sexual organs. His brain is different to a woman in certain ways.

He is a man and a woman conversely is a woman. And the queer theory says no, those are just social constructs. There actually is no there is no difference. Let me show you how it works out in another field.

We've just had the ninja warrior. Experience on TV happened here in Australia. We've had the Australian ninja warrior and they've done here. I wonder if they've done it in the States. They had men and women run the same course.

Did they do that in the States? I don't know if you've watched this show. But you end up with a whole bunch of men and women trying to run the same sort of outdoor Ninja warrior course and none of the women got through it.

So we went for equality and actually what happened was none of the women could compete. But it's this kind of queer theory that that's deconstructing everything. So it's it's the reason why we as a society have gone.

It doesn't matter whether you're a man or a woman for marriage marriage is just a social construct. We need to deconstruct it. It's it's just all the same, you know, just love wins. Whatever. It doesn't matter.

What's happened is this has been applied into so many different areas of life. That now it's going to just into this general idea of gender. And so what's been bubbling away in in the academia? For want of a better word, although how quite how academically rigorous this is.

Is.

Uncertain what's been bubbling like that has finally working its way out into into our culture. What's really interesting therefore is that it's a political movement. It's a political philosophical movement.

It's not grounded in in medical scientific research. So when people go on TV and they say are the latest research shows the latest this shows what they're actually talking about is papers written by political science.

Academics in their in their offices. With with second rate, I would say in sometimes research methods not actual proper scientific. Study of the phenomenon and and it's been working its way out and particularly seeing it in the schools, aren't we?

And in and in other places. But ultimately it's part of a wider movement. It works its way through the homosexual thing first of all and now it's getting down to to core gender identity. Which if you think about it is what's going on in the homosexual movement.

It's about that just lack of distinction between male and female. And it's all just the same. So if it's all just the same any two people can get married if it's all just the same. What's the problem of other men deciding that they're a woman?

So that's basically the philosophical thing that's that's underlying it now we go into more detail obviously in the paper itself.

One of the thing that one of the things that Has me troubled Is that the left They they will take a a fairly new concept of transgenderism, I'm not saying that nobody in History has has Battled with this phenomenon, but as far as it being a category of gender euphoria and transgenderism and so forth the left the left Seems to instantaneously Come across as if they are experts on things like this and they will rebuke and mock and Write off Anyone with a conservative or even more specifically a biblical worldview regarding sex and morality As just being out of touch As being ignorant and as being Neanderthal and it to me it's it's absurd that these people from the left who who defend and promote and celebrate things like transgenderism and homosexuality is That they act as I said as if they are experts thoroughly knowledgeable experts as if there are reams and Volumes of scientific data that prove what they are saying and that anybody who disagrees with them is either a hateful bigot or a moron.