March 14, 2018 Show with David Ould on “The Transgender Controversy: The Response From The Sydney, Australian Anglicans”

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

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This is Chris Arnz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 14th

day of March 2017.

I'm 2018.

Sorry about that.

And for those of you who are Expecting to hear my dear friend. Dr. Tony

Costa on the program today.

He is the professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary and we had

originally planned to do a program where he was going to give an assessment of my

Radio debate that I had with James Bogle who is a Roman Catholic Attorney

as they call them barristers over there in the UK.

I was a guest along with mr. Bogle on the UK radio program unbelievable and the

interview developed into a debate between myself being a

former Roman Catholic and mr. Bogle being a former Protestant and Myself

having converted to biblical Protestantism and mr. Bogle converting to Roman

Catholicism.

It started as just a discussion and then and then evolved into a debate and We were going

to assess that that has been moved to this Friday.

So actually this Friday and This coming Monday because we're gonna break it over

to parts.

So just write that down in your calendar for dr Tony Costa this Friday and This coming Monday

as well.

But today I'm so delighted to have returning to iron sharpens iron radio David old.

He is senior associate minister at st. John's Anglican Cathedral in Parramatta, Australia,

and I'm sure he's going to correct me on the pronunciation of that a biblically faithful theologically conservative

historically reformed and confessionally Calvinistic body Who will address the very timely topic the

transgender controversy the response from the Sydney Australian?

Anglicans and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back the iron sharpens iron radio David old.

Thank You Chris for that incredibly kind welcome.

I didn't recognize myself.

Well.

The last time that we had you on the program you were a rector at another congregation

and this is a fairly recent development in your ministry.

Tell us something about st. John's Anglican Cathedral in.

Parramatta and am I pronouncing Parramatta correctly?

Yes, parramatta parramatta.

So yeah, we're out here in Sydney, Australia.

We are part of that but that rest of humanity that somehow manages to exist outside the United States.

So parramatta is um, it's it's in the it's in the Sydney Basin.

It's it's out to the west of the Sydney CBD and it was the original Seat of the

colony.

So when the British came and colonized on Australia over 200 years ago now they first

landed near what is the Sydney CBD, but they soon moved inland where I think the

Land was much much better and parramatta.

This the River of Eels literally in the local aboriginal language.

And so I was asked last year by the senior minister of the cathedral here,

which is a Regional Cathedral within the Diocese of Sydney.

I was asked if I would come and join the staff.

And we considered that and then this year about two months ago.

I came and joined the staff.

So I've gone from being the rector So which is the senior minister of a small parish in the

southwest of Sydney to being on the staff of this Busy bustling Cathedral Church,

which is a lot of fun.

But I'm only just beginning to get my head above water, but it's great and we're in the middle of a hugely expanding

Second CBD in Sydney and all the challenges and excitement that comes with that.

Well, praise God and for anybody wanting to explore further

Information about st. John's Anglican Cathedral over there in Parramatta, Sydney, Australia

You can go to st. John's Cathedral org dot a you.

That's right.

That's st. John's Cathedral org dot e you a you.

And these.

Yes.

Yeah, and the saint is abbreviated st and there's no period.

Yeah.

Let me just announce our email address if anybody wants to join us on the air with a question about the transgender

controversy.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and I could obviously see this

subject lending itself To the great possibility that people may have personal and private

questions.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris arnzen at gmail .com.

If it's not a personal and private question Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence

before we go into the heart of the matter.

Can you? describe how the.

Sydney.

Area as far as Anglicans are concerned would be

Set apart and different from places like Brisbane and other areas of Australia.

Sure, so I'm.

Put most simply this is probably the most robustly thoroughly conservative diocese

in In Australia, that's not to say that there aren't some other great conservative diocese in Australia as well.

But Sydney because of its size and history Has that has that status?

Thoroughly evangelical.

It's one of the few Diocese apart from a couple of others in Australia where I'd be confident to say to someone

pretty much every local Church is going to be evangelical and not just

evangelical but but Mostly reformed in one way or another there's obviously always going to be some

exceptions.

But I'm compared to some other diocese and certainly compared to What is the Episcopal Church in the United

States where most of your listeners will be it is a million worlds apart.

I think what we are here is is far more faithful to the original Formation

of the Church of England at the Reformation era.

That's that's that's the basic nutshell there's some history about why that happened mostly to do with the chaplains that came out on the first fleet and the

constitution of the Anglican Church of Australia.

Just the geography of Australia where our major cities are so far apart from each other that you kind of get a little bit of

Isolation and you get to preserve the culture in a place.

But but that's where we're at.

It's a delightful place to do ministry.

It has its challenges.

We have a very very very secular Population around us.

But um, it's great.

I love being here.

We've been here for 14 years.

Praise God.

And how close are you to Perth?

The reason why I ask is that my church or the church where I'm a member.

I should never say it's my church.

Yeah, I have.

I am NOT an office bearer and I know that it's the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's not the church anybody in the congregation, but the church where I am a member.

Since I moved from New York to Pennsylvania Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which is a

confessionally reformed Baptist Church belonging to the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of

America.

We have a church plant that one of our Former members is

involved in as the pastor there in Perth.

So I was wondering how close to Sydney you are to Perth.

Well, it's a short walk To the train, which I'd have to take to the airport.

To then get on a five -hour flight for a transcontinental flight from Sydney, which is on the

east coast of Australia to To Perth which is on the west coast.

It's equivalent I think of traveling from New York to Los Angeles and in the same way quite.

Why you'd want to do that is beyond me.

Well to go to the Reformed Baptist Church plant.

Of course!

And can there be a more reformed church possible than a Reformed Baptist Church?

And.

Well, one of the things that we are specifically going to be discussing today along with the

issue of Transgenderism in general we are really taking our information primarily

from a report from the Social Issues Committee of.

The.

Sydney Australian Diocese of the Anglican Church and

Who were specifically involved in developing? This document this report.

I know that you are not an official spokesman for the Sydney Australian Diocese.

But I know that you will be providing some very helpful information.

And with coming with great knowledge and first -hand experience with the document.

So if you could tell us who exactly Developed this and why specifically they developed it other than

perhaps Obviously just bringing this very difficult

Issue to the attention of the Christian community there and what a Christian

response to this very comparatively new issue in

the history of mankind and how we are to Respond and

interact with this issue.

Sure.

So the Diocese of Sydney Diocese is how we how we did Translate it.

But again, you choose your own way Chris the Diocese of Sydney has its own a whole bunch of

different committees.

That come out of what we call the synod the synod is our church parliament.

We meet once every year for about five days.

I have a number of committees.

So, you know a doctrine commission and that kind of thing and a social issues committee.

Which we look to to write reports on social issues.

The social issues committee was asked to prepare a report on gender identity so

looking at the whole Transgender issue which of course like in the United States has just become a big big thing and we can talk in a bit

About how we've arrived at the situation where this it seems possible to think that a man might be a woman

and then the social issue committee what it did is it set up a Subcommittee which is often the way that

we'll do things and it drafted in a number of people to help Write that write that report.

So it was chaired by a wonderful lady called Claire Smith, who is a an outstanding theologian

conservative well thought through on a number of issues not least on gender and

Personhood has has done a whole bunch of work in that area already.

We were joined by two medical professionals.

One was a lady called dr Megan best who is a practicing doctor and researcher and also

professor.

Dr. Patricia.

We're a coon.

Who is the most wonderful?

Older Sri Lankan woman who is a sexologist.

There is nothing I tell you Chris There is nothing better than sitting in a room full of 200 clergy having

a a old just just retired Sri Lankan woman in a sari talked to you about your sexual

responses.

And how the brain works when you are aroused and I don't mean to offend you or your listeners but you go understand this is the

this is like she lives and breathes this stuff and she she um, she's Incredibly helpful and has

written a number of books For teenagers and for parents and so forth and it's a respected professor

at the University of Sydney.

Is she coming from this.

Is she coming from a more conservative if not biblical that so she's not a Sri Lankan.

Dr. Ruth Westheimer, I don't know.

She um, she actually is a member of the church at st. St. John's Parramatta.

She's a lovely lovely lady.

Loves the Lord Jesus Christ loves his word and has ended up in this in this interesting field of sex.

Just talking about sex and how your brain works and all kind of stuff.

So very very knowledgeable.

Then they invited myself and another Licensed but clergyman, but actually he's not working

in parish ministry at the moment called Nicholas mole.

And I think that's everybody.

Yes, I think it is.

And we got together and and divide worked out what the issues were did some research together

started drafting a report and.

The end result is on what you see before you it went through a number of revisions with us.

And then it went back to the wider Committee itself where we met with the original social issues committee and

did a little bit more drafting and work.

Just to tighten a few things up.

And then it was received by our synod.

Last October in your fall along with has to be said a paper by the Doctrine Commission.

Which just looked purely at the doctrine and got into some Some in -depth thought about the doctrine, but this

is a wider the paper.

We're talking about today is a wider Paper.

It deals with a whole bunch of different stuff that we'll be able to talk through together.

Well since I'm very interested in raising the ratings of my radio

program tell this Sri Lankan sexologist that I would love to have her as a guest because I don't know it would

be fantastic.

Chris.

You would love her.

I would know I can't even think of another sexologist let alone

a Secular one other than the dr. Roost Westheimer, which I'm not even

sure if she's with us anymore but a conservative Bible -believing.

Person.

I don't say that to ridicule her quite on the contrary and I'm not laughing in ridicule either.

I'm just She's no we many of us just know her as auntie Pat.

She's just a lovely lovely lady and has decided to spend her life serving the Lord in this area and doing

it.

So well, well, I'm so proud to be her minister.

It seems to be something that would be very Needed in our day and age when there are so

many problems involving sex and to have a voice that is not only medically

Knowledgeable but also One who is a Christian?

Yeah, a true Christian.

Well, I think the strength of this paper notwithstanding that we've gone into some of the biblical stuff quite

Well is that you've got two absolute experts in the field Medically and

academically and you'll see that in the paper later on when we talk through some of them stuff on medical

Approaches and the a theology that's the origin and and the actual getting the medical view of what gender dysphoria

actually is.

I think that's what makes this paper.

So robust.

It is really clear biblically, but also it is it has taken the very latest research

on on this whole phenomenon and Distilled it in a really helpful accessible way that hopefully we can get through to

your your listeners not least this morning.

Yeah this morning here in Sydney this afternoon for you.

In fact.

We may have to do a couple of programs on on this subject to adequately address All the

points that are in this report.

But if obviously the best place to start for us is where your report starts, what is sure.

And gender?

Sure.

Well transgender is Simply put when you have a man or a woman

who presents In their physical self and obviously that Genetically underlying that

as a male or female and yet perceives themselves to be the opposite or an indeterminate

gender and and so we We call that now gender

dysphoria.

That is to say that it used to be that the psychologists would say simply the the

thought that you might be The opposite gender was sufficient for us to talk about something that's going wrong,

but now we talk about the dysphoria that is to say the the experience of distress

associated with having a Psychological or emotional gender identity that doesn't

match your biological sex.

More technically transgender is is the umbrella term not just for those people but for those who

then want to express The gender with which they identify that so that so a man

may dress in women's clothes Or may actually then engage in cross hormone therapy or

even sex reassignment Surgery, I think the important thing to stress at this point and I'm reading directly from the report

is it's not about it's not about sexual orientation.

So there's some confusion here.

I think it's important that our listeners distinguish those two things in their mind.

So transgender people can be straight or lesbian or guy or gay or bisexual

In relation to their subjective gender identity so, you know, you could get a man who is attracted to women

who then Transitions who remains attracted to women and

so in a sense you might argue that they're Their sexual orientation has changed

from being heterosexual to homosexual.

So just set those things aside.

It's not about that.

It's about their identity of themselves in who they believe themselves to be.

Yes, the interesting thing about this sin.

Which I'm sure you would agree that in spite of any psychological problem that is involved here that it is a sin.

It's the first one that I'm aware of.

Where at least in Contemporary society in the 21st century where those who are

involved in this or experiencing this.

Are.

Also calling it By a medical term that reveals that there is a

problem the gender dysphoria.

I've heard even Bruce Jenner Say that he has gender

dysphoria and and other folks as well.

Whereas those that are Involved in the sin of homosexuality typically would be

outraged in our day and age By the mere suggestion that they have something

medically or psychologically wrong with them and I know that that yes.

I know that that was not always the case though.

I know that that there.

Yeah, I'm that's right.

So like homosexual Attraction the definitions in in the

DSM have have changed whether they've changed in alignment with research.

Not political maneuvering is probably something we can debate a long long time I know where I stand on that

I might just go back a little bit to the language of sin that you've used before Chris and without wanting to in any way

diminish The sense that for someone that's experienced gender nonconformity that

something has gone wrong.

I think we want to be careful about the language of sin at this stage and maybe I'm gonna lose most of your listeners.

Even at the start, but I think like any other activity that you and I might carry out I think we need to

distinguish between the the attraction to something the temptation even internally

to do something And the actual carrying out of it.

So I think there are questions around whether it's can we say it's sin for someone just to live in a

male body, but Experience the sense that they think that they're female.

Is that is that in itself?

Sinful or is it the decision to act upon it in the same way that you might say to a homosexual person?

Someone that experiences same -sex attraction.

Is it sin simply to to experience that attraction or is it sin to act upon it?

And I think in the same way we've got to make a careful distinction here.

Now, don't get me wrong.

And we'll talk about the theology in a while.

This is this is another effect of the ravages of sin Across the world and in the entire creation is

corrupted in many in various ways and here's just another expression of it.

But I think we have to be careful about Distinguishing between what people are feeling that they may not be

able to help and Whether they're going to act upon that and our report tries to gently tease that

apart.

As as we move forward well when it comes to Sexual issues whether they are heterosexual

or homosexual or other.

Even lust.

I mean Jesus Said that even someone who thinks impurely of a woman in his heart has committed adultery

already.

And it also.

The scriptures also describe the fact that Men and women

burning in their hearts for one another is a sign of judgment upon them.

Yes, and that they are being turned over to their own lusts.

There's never from what I can see in the scriptures a neutral position on

sexuality when it comes to somebody who is Outside of the bonds of marriage having any

sexual activity whether in thought or deed other than their own spouse.

Sure, but if I might just push back gently.

If we can work out what the what the underlying cause is of of of

being gender non -conforming.

Then we can work out Quite how it fits into that into and I agree with you.

But we can work out quite how it fits into into that pattern.

So again going back to a homosexual person.

Yes, they may to quote Romans one they may they may burn with passion one for another but there's a distinct

difference isn't there between a Man who says and therefore I will give in to that

Passion and another man who says no in Christ I will I will See my

identity in the Lord Jesus Christ and I will not act upon that passion that I feel in the same way that you.

And I I mean the Lord Jesus Christ skewers as an adultery doesn't he Chris?

He says if I look at another woman with lust in my heart that I've committed adultery in my heart now you

and I both know that there is a Big difference between that that first and second look that we might give it a woman walking

past us on the street.

With Joe by try and say, you know, I've made a vow with my eyes not to look twice as a lady.

But um, we still do right and yet there's a difference between that that initial impulse.

And then you and I going and booking a motel room and inviting her for a weekend away, right?

It's it's so so that distinction I think we just want to just very carefully tease out in this area because What we've got around

us is it is a great number of men and women who through no decision of their own

Find themselves their experiences that they find themselves.

Their perception is they're in a male body for example, but they think that they're a female now.

That's just a situation that they're presented with.

How they are that is the ravages of sin upon the world.

The general corruption of the creation how they then respond to that.

That is then the question for us Chris, and I think it's just important We tease that out.

Otherwise, we're gonna have a bunch of people walking around who for whom we we've got to be careful about our language.

You've got to be pastorally sensitive about this if we simply say ah, that's sin.

Not in a nuanced way We're gonna do some damage because there'll be a bunch of people who are genuinely have

dysphoria over this that is to say they are Distressed that they feel this way.

And they don't want to and so we want to help them move forward and move forward in the right

direction.

Not not in the wrong direction.

Yes, and I'd like you to go through some of the specifics like for instance the Biblical and

contemporary lenses and so on.

But one one one final thing.

I just wanted to add.

Yeah.

From my own point of view here as we go back and forth on this issue when you say through no decision of

their own we cannot really know that for certain because There are

things that may have begun to be Cultivated and toyed with in the minds of

people even when they're very young sexually that may evolve or devolve Into something

much more harmful and much greater and much more of a damaging thing in their

lives just as For instance, you know you to take to take an extreme example.

You have serial killers sometimes when they are giving their Testimonies

from a jail cell of what happened to them.

They will often say that well, I just began Looking at pornographic Magazines which

escalated to films and then they got boring with the heterosexual stuff.

So it keeps going and going and going until it becomes not only homosexuality but

brutality and and sadomasochism and and and.

So when somebody is claiming to be Transgender, how can we know that they that

they did not develop that way because of sinful choices to cultivate?

Through fantasy and other ways.

Thing that became a snowball if you will.

Well.

The report and we can come to it in due course the report does have a whole section on on the Atheology that is to say the origins of it and we

discuss in detail the evidence that we do have on whether it's Biological whether it's environmental

and I think it's fair to say at this point the jury is out on it, although to read the report you can see

a Great number great amount of work has been done, but we don't really have any idea yet in the

in the academic field quite 100

What what what causes this what causes this to happen?

And as I say that I'm not discounting the spiritual aspect to it But I'm just saying it is I want to just gently say it

is a complex area.

And we need to we probably all need to understand it better As we as we seek to to

apply the biblical lens to it.

Why don't we talk about where it's come from Chris?

That's probably the Culturally where it's come from because that's probably a fascinating.

Yes.

We'll have you do that as soon as we come back from the first break.

Is that I want to interrupt you in mid -sentence.

Sure, so we're gonna go to our first break and then as soon as we come back we will have you.

Press forward in the in the best direction that you think we should so don't go away.

We'll be right back with David old and more of our discussion on Transgenderism

right after these messages from our sponsors.

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many more to come and we are now back with our guest David old.

We are discussing transgenderism a Christian response to this and of course

not all Christians are going to agree with exactly how we are to respond to this but

we are specifically addressing the response from the Sydney Australian Anglicans and

if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and David before I go to

any of the listener questions week because we already have some.

Can you please tell our listeners about where this? comes from.

Sure.

So simply put this is an outworking of the querying of

understanding of how society and institutions work.

Which we've seen expressed in in other ways not least in in the homosexual movement.

But now is working its way out to its natural conclusion across all aspects of gender.

Identity.

Now when I say the word queering, I don't just mean the word queer that's used of

Homosexual people sometimes derogatively sometimes not.

I'm talking about that broader sense in which.

People who are pursuing this agenda.

Sometimes called I think these days social Marxism and I think it's quite clear why that is from from the

way that it's constructed.

Want to deconstruct Institutions and structures that previously were taken

for granted.

So, um, let me just read you a little a tiny paragraph from a paper that we that we

looked at together I found really helpful for describing this.

And it's referenced in our in our paper quote queer theorists see gender as an

Institution by which they mean a social convention or arrangement sustained by a set of accepted

Determinative ideas or norms.

It is for this reason that gender must be queered because it is a harmful institution that forcibly

frames society's subjects.

Queer theory seeks to undermine the view that the only Existence is that which falls within the boundaries set

by the institution of gender that is ordered by nature or biology.

More simply put queer theory argues directly against natural law you and I might say well a man is a man.

He has an X and a Y chromosome.

He has certain sexual organs.

His brain is different to a woman in certain ways.

He is a man and a woman conversely is a woman.

And the queer theory says no, those are just social constructs.

There actually is no there is no difference.

Let me show you how it works out in another field.

We've just had the ninja warrior.

Experience on TV happened here in Australia.

We've had the Australian ninja warrior and they've done here.

I wonder if they've done it in the States.

They had men and women run the same course.

Did they do that in the States?

I don't know if you've watched this show.

But you end up with a whole bunch of men and women trying to run the same sort of outdoor Ninja warrior course

and none of the women got through it.

So we went for equality and actually what happened was none of the women could compete.

But it's this kind of queer theory that that's deconstructing everything.

So it's it's the reason why we as a society have gone.

It doesn't matter whether you're a man or a woman for marriage marriage is just a social construct.

We need to deconstruct it.

It's it's just all the same, you know, just love wins.

Whatever.

It doesn't matter.

What's happened is this has been applied into so many different areas of life.

That now it's going to just into this general idea of gender.

And so what's been bubbling away in in the academia?

For want of a better word, although how quite how academically rigorous this is.

Is.

Uncertain what's been bubbling like that has finally working its way out into into our culture.

What's really interesting therefore is that it's a political movement.

It's a political philosophical movement.

It's not grounded in in medical scientific research.

So when people go on TV and they say are the latest research shows the latest this shows what they're actually talking about is

papers written by political science.

Academics in their in their offices.

With with second rate, I would say in sometimes research methods not actual proper

scientific.

Study of the phenomenon and and it's been working its way out and particularly seeing it in the

schools, aren't we?

And in and in other places.

But ultimately it's part of a wider movement.

It works its way through the homosexual thing first of all and now it's getting down to to core gender identity.

Which if you think about it is what's going on in the homosexual movement.

It's about that just lack of distinction between male and female.

And it's all just the same.

So if it's all just the same any two people can get married if it's all just the same.

What's the problem of other men deciding that they're a woman?

So that's basically the philosophical thing that's that's underlying it now we go into more detail obviously in the paper itself.

One of the thing that one of the things that Has me troubled

Is that the left They they will take a a fairly new

concept of transgenderism, I'm not saying that nobody in

History has has Battled with this phenomenon, but as far

as it being a category of gender euphoria and transgenderism

and so forth the left the left Seems to instantaneously

Come across as if they are experts on things like this and they will

rebuke and mock and Write off Anyone

with a conservative or even more specifically a biblical worldview

regarding sex and morality As just being out of touch As being

ignorant and as being Neanderthal and it to me it's it's absurd that these

people from the left who who defend and promote and celebrate things like

transgenderism and homosexuality is That they act as I said as if they are experts

thoroughly knowledgeable experts as if there are reams and

Volumes of scientific data that prove what they are saying and that anybody who

disagrees with them is either a hateful bigot or a moron.

And It's really troubling to me that a lot of people Either

naively or just because they want to prevent themselves from being condemned by the majority of

Secular society they seem to go along with this snowball that is rolling down the hill and growing larger and

larger.

How do you react to what I just said?

Yeah, I think you're right.

Not just the left.

So I was on a TV show here in Australia last year talking about same -sex marriage with a

commentator who I presented himself as being conservative and when I Just laid out a

pretty uniform conservative view of marriage.

His first response was well, I'm offended.

He actually had been raised by two men Together and he was offended and I didn't have the the

wherewithal immediately in that context to say well.

But that makes no difference does it because the offense that you feel has nothing to say about the actual truth of

the matter.

It just means you're upset by it but so it's spread it's spread everywhere and I'm

intrigued by you obviously all aware as we are of professor Jordan Peterson and his interaction with this

movement.

I think he's one of the best analysts of this kind of stuff going on today.

He's a young man himself.

He's a young man.

So again, I'm not here presenting him as a man perfect in all his ways.

That's just you and me and there's no one else there Chris, but he um, he he um.

He is a fine analyst, isn't he of this movement and to watch his interactions with it

and to watch his analysis of the underlying stuff that's going on as a very Authoritarian streak

to this apparently liberal way of Going about things but you're right.

It does it's it's democracy by by shouting It's it's it's establishing facts by being insistent

upon them rather than demonstrating them and it has captured our legislature in in

various Ways our media obviously is very sympathetic to it in general and so forth.

And so what you actually get is is a and we talked about this in the report as well is as language changes.

So so they've they've done very well.

There's something to learn isn't there Chris in the way that these people repeatedly managed to get on language to change.

So even the change from talking about gender incongruence to gender dysphoria.

That is to say just the idea that you might be a man who wants to be a woman was itself considered to be something

Abnormal previously.

Now, it's just if you're unsettled with that that it's abnormal.

So just the change of language has been interesting this all stuff about the pronouns as a whole fascinating

Conversation we could we could we could get into but it's important that we just see what's going on underlying it

there is this deconstruction of structures of institutions, which is politically

philosophically driven which whole segments of our of our culture and particularly some of the key

players in our culture have played into.

And bought hook line and sinker swallowed the Kool -Aid.

However, you might you might might want to put it and and we're starting to see the great damage I mean probably we'll move to talk after the

biblical view.

We'll talk about some of the medical stuff.

It's obviously the great damage lives that have been wrecked by this.

Well, if you want to Finalize anything in that particular area that you began

speaking on before we go to any listener questions.

That's up to you if or if you want me to go to a question.

Which would you know?

I I think I think the only thing to say about languages and again We do this in the report is to be be really clear about

how we're using our language understand What words because language is a powerful thing?

There's a sense in which Wittgenstein was right that that you can frame reality by the words That you use and the

cultural Marxists have certainly demonstrated that for us in the last 30 or 40 years.

But I think it's it's important for us as well to be really clear on on how language is used In this

debate so that we can be careful about our own language as well.

We can use the terms in the right way.

We can then start to respond and reply to people more intelligently and more articulately.

And I think it goes back to what you said before The left and um, and that's a broad term, isn't it?

But those advocating for this sort of change use words very deliberately and seek

to redefine things and part of pushing back is is Implicitly educating our

listeners in any conversation that we're having about reality by the language that we use as well.

Let's not seed the ground in it.

Let's be careful about our terms use them.

Well.

Define them if necessary and then just gently try to reclaim this ground for for some sensible debate.

And I agree with you, but perhaps I you will disagree with me and on certain points here.

Be like for instance, I completely I'm abhorred.

I abhor the folks from the Westboro Baptist Church and the the way that

they taunt not only people involved in homosexuality, but a host of

other different types of people even United States soldiers and so on.

But.

Is although that although I do think that these people are demonstrating that they

are not born again.

They do delight in the death of the wicked as the scriptures say God does not even delight in the death of the wicked.

They have no they have no gospel.

For the people involved in homosexuality that they are taunting and harassing.

They delight in the fact that these people are going to hell.

They seem to enjoy telling them that they're going to hell.

Yes, it is.

It's rather painful, isn't it?

There's no grace there.

You can imagine them sitting with Jonah under their big sweeping vine.

Utterly miserable, but God would be gracious, right?

But on the other hand, I think that the Evangelical Church and and Christendom

in general I Think is going too far to appease those

involved in sin.

By.

Sugar coating things with language that are not offensive when the scriptures.

Have this.

The God -breathed language of Scripture very often is specifically

intended to offend so that someone realizes the danger that they're in and the

Evil that they are participating in and that they need to repent and flee to Christ.

And I'll give you a personal example.

Sure, I.

Was enslaved to drunkenness.

Not only before I became a born -again believer, but after 18 years of sobriety.

I Tragically returned to that and I went under church discipline.

I went to a Christian ministry For several months

that specializes that or their focus is to Bring

to repentance.

People such as myself who had yeah fallen into this sin.

Hebron colony ministries and in Boone, North Carolina.

I cannot stop singing the praises about that place.

So.

From the standpoint of that sin, I Am unnerved.

I'm I cringe and I just feel Horrible, and I get angry

when I hear this Spoken of with overly clinical terms as

I'm speaking of drunkenness right now.

Sure, where the where people are having their guilt alleviated if not entirely removed from them.

Where it's dealt with as just a sickness and so on.

And it is not it is not viewed as by many in the field of

Drug and alcohol Rehabilitation in the field of counseling in those areas.

That is is not viewed as something that is a voluntary sinful and

Wicked and damning and deadly act.

Well, of course, they would recognize it's deadly But they would do it more as a clinical issue in a disease.

I.

Despise that as someone says that yes, it's not a binary.

Is it Chris?

It's not it's not an either -or thing.

So I'm sure when you were there It sounds to me that they were very clear with you that ultimately you are you are an agent with

free in one sense.

Choice over what you're going to do.

And so you actually ultimately the decision rests with you to choose to stop drinking.

At the same time I'm sure you were loved and shown a great deal of compassion.

And we're able to work through some of the underlying issues that cause that caused you to drink.

Yes, but of course it was not.

It was not without sternness appropriate sure sternness and sure and.

And seriousness that was as serious as a heart attack as they say.

It's a mixture.

Yeah.

Yeah, so it's a mixture of all those different things.

So I'm intrigued by Jesus who as we see here in the Gospels is unfailingly

clear on sin but his His great wrath is

is displayed in his in his earthly ministry.

It's displayed against leaders who lead people into sin As

opposed to sinners themselves who quite often while he's abundantly clear about their sin with them.

And who knows what the detailed conversations were like?

I mean the Gospels give us some indication don't they have of the tenor of those conversations?

But.

He is gentle and compassionate where it's needed and and Sees all these

sheep without a shepherd.

And so his heart his heart goes out to them and I don't I don't doubt that within those conversations There were stern

conversations.

There was clarity and the rest of it.

And yes, so it's about trying to find that that right balance and I fear

it's on a spectrum.

Not a binary.

There's always going to be Disagreements about where on that spectrum we fall.

What we must do of course and I think I hear this from you what we must do is is look to the people that we're Analyzing

here in their response and look to their fundamental convictions and say am I in agreement on their fundamental convictions?

You and I probably will end up disagreeing to some extent quite how we approach this.

But I know that the same time you're going.

Well, I trust David's fundamental convictions.

I've seen the work that's gone that's gone through here.

So I have to let him work this one out as you will as well

and The right intention and a desire to serve the Lord Jesus Christ Faithfully

goes a long way here.

Perhaps maybe we can move on to to think about what the Bible's actually got to say on this.

Yes, in fact.

I'd be a transition that's worth doing sure and we are going to our midway break right now.

So we will do that as soon as I return.

This is our longer than normal break.

It's 12 minutes because grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Requires of us a 12 -minute

break between our two segments.

So, please be patient with us.

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chirping is iron radio and I had just have a couple of announcements before I return to our discussion on

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That's also the email address to send in a question for our guest David old.

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Oh you LD and he is senior associate minister at st. John's Anglican Cathedral in

Parramatta, Australia and we are discussing the transgender controversy the response from the

Sydney Australian Anglicans and We'd love to get more questions from our listeners

and we will take as many as time or permit at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And if you would like to Enter into the realm of the the biblical

data on the subject before we take listener questions.

That's up to you or I could go right to a biblical.

Yeah.

Maybe we'll do that Chris.

I think that's probably a way to go just to simply state.

And it might give some of your listeners some relief to know where I stand on this.

We think the Bible is pretty clear.

The first chapter of the Bible tells us that God made humanity male and female it describes that As part of

being made in his image and it receives the affirmation at the end, doesn't it?

This is part of God's very good creation.

I find it interesting that the creation is labeled as good by God on the end of each of the five

days.

But at the end when humanity is made and everything is set in its place.

It's very good.

The binary of male female obviously is the last of the binaries of

Genesis one you've got all those different sort of light and dark sky and sea all those

Distinctions that have been teased out and then the last one is this great binary between male and female what's

fascinating is that that Affirmation of the goodness of that is is repeated

after the fall.

So Genesis 5 1 2 2 is interesting to read just because repeats the language in Genesis 2 we see

the distinction developed as we see the Intrinsic roles beginning of the roles and the one flesh union between

between the man And the woman and we start to see the language of husband and wife and

father and mother so we start to see roles and understandings of how

those two are meant to relate to one another.

And of course Jesus himself when he's asked the questions about marriage in Mark 10 Matthew 19

instinctively goes back to Genesis 1 and actually says doesn't he at the beginning of creation God made the

male and female which is a Conflation of that statement from Genesis 1.

He also affirms the models and roles in Genesis 2 as well, so there is no doubt in Scripture

That men and women are created equally human equally blessed.

But sexually distinct with with with different roles.

And so the question then goes well, what do those roles look like and it's interesting I think then to work through What the

rest of the Bible says and in particular a lot of stuff in the New Testament Where the focus is on on marriage and the

gathered Christian community we see whatever you make of those distinctions.

We see clear distinctions between men and women in there in there in

their roles.

In distinct gender roles and relationships, and we set all that out in the in the in the

report.

One observation We do make which I think is helpful is that at the same time the Bible recognizes that gender is expressed

Culturally and so in different cultures there may be different expressions of what that

looks like.

I think that's part of what's going on in the first Corinthians head covering Passage, but this is me speaking there personally

Chris but this seems to Paul seems to draw a distinction doesn't he between some universal principles of the difference between men and women and

then Perhaps a way that that might be expressed in the culture of The day.

Having asserted in the in the report Are actually not asserted demonstrated in the report the

difference between men and women.

We then go on to talk about the nature of the fall.

That every human relationship is broken.

That the whole as we put it the well -being of creation is affected and therefore our bodies I know

exception to this that we're subject to frustration death and decay and so on.

And also we note that actually the scriptures do show us on several occasions Where there are people whose bodies do

not display all the usual characteristics of their biological Sex.

Interestingly enough the Bible doesn't speak about a third sex or that God has intended it in that in

that way.

And it's interesting to note that when Jesus even mentions those who are born eunuchs or made eunuchs by other He

others he does it in the context in Matthew 19 of having already restated God's original

creation Design.

And then we go on to talk about the fact that we are as humans.

We are embodied being so we do some discussion on the fact that our bodies are not are not

unimportant.

But actually a lot of who we are is expressed in our bodies that while we lose our bodies at death We inherit an imperishable

body at the resurrection of the dead.

There's some discussion about what the resurrection is like that Jesus obviously is the model for our resurrection.

And so we will go back into into distinctly human bodies.

We have a brief discussion about whether a Biological differentiation between male and female continues

into the new creation.

We want to gently suggest that it does and provide the evidence for that.

And so we come to the conclusion that Christians are to be thankful and content with their bodies known that they are a gift From a heavenly

father with which we are are to serve him and that part of our Christian life is faithful stewardship of our bodies

glorified here in them and Recognizing the therefore that gender incongruence the experience of

that presents a particular challenge as it might do with other disorders of self and body so for

example anorexia or other body integrity disorders.

That that kind of thing and we start to talk to therefore to some pastoral applications.

That we've got to be sensitive to the depth of the challenge that's going on here.

But acknowledge the groaning and pain of life in a in a in a fallen world but that any

response that we make in this area ultimately needs to seek to restore and preserve the

Integrity of body and self and honor and protect the biologically sexed body that God

has given us.

So I'll significantly our goal must be the wholeness and welfare of the whole person In the way that

God intended it to be and I think there's no doubt in the report what we think That should be if you and I have an X &Y

chromosome.

Chris.

Then we were intended by God to be men and we're only going to find The amount of

health and well -being that we can in this life.

By being conformed to that and asking for God's help to to live that out As best as we can

not to escape from it or to flee from it.

We then go on a little bit to talk about our identity in Christ.

And I'm sure these are these are arguments that are familiar to many of your listeners and also we talk a little bit about what it means to be in a

body of believers and How this ought to work out in a body that we share one another's burdens.

We ought to love one another to be clear with one another all those all those kinds of things.

So it's quite a comprehensive biblical overview.

I think it's helpful.

I think it's robust.

I think it provides a great framework for understanding that Gender non -conformity

is a is it's clearly clearly clearly clearly and move away from God's good.

Intention for us as created men and women and now we have a listener in

Slovenia.

Joe in Slovenia says.

Dear brothers Chris and David.

Thank you both for increasing the international aspect of iron sharpens iron.

I've noticed that some professedly reformed ministries in the USA are actively promoting

the concept of accepting homosexuals as members in good standing in the

church who profess to be Only same -sex attracted and committed to chastity.

What is the germane biblical teaching on this topic?

How should we respond to this concept?

May God bless you both.

Very very interesting question because I think that Homosexuality

is an activity and it's all too often referred to as a people group as if it's

to be equivalent to somebody's Ethnicity or the color of their skin or something, but if you could respond David.

Sure, so it is related to our to our topic today in the terms of we're talking about

People not being as they were intentionally created to be by God And experiencing

something that's contrary to that I I'm of the opinion that it

actually comes down to the self identity.

So the debate that's going on within the Christian homosexual Grouping at the

moment by which I mean Genuinely converted Christians who long to be faithful to the Lord Jesus

Christ.

That is to say recognize that same -sex attraction Activity is is wrong

Within that segment.

There is a debate about whether they ought to identify as as gay or not.

So I I veer towards the view that they ought not to that I don't think it's helpful for me for example to identify as an

adulterous Christian.

I've got it under control Chris I do you know, I I like women who are not my wife.

That's just who I am but I've got it under control and I don't think it's a helpful way of

talking.

So, I I don't think in a similar way and I realize it's not quite a straight analogy.

It's helpful to speak of myself if I were as a as a gay Christian so I think I

think rather we want to say be clear that this aspect of my humanity is um

is It is fallen and and my identity is in Christ.

And I think those people who have Found healing from the actual attraction.

Which I don't think is a guarantee at all Chris for for men and women who experience same -sex attraction who are Christians.

But those who have found healing from it Have I think I've seen lots of people speaking of

concentrating on they're just they're simply their identity in Christ.

I will say however that The movement comes from good motives that I've seen even yesterday.

I was reading an article by a guy I've got a lot of time for who speaks about the one wanting

to affirm that desire for good same -sex Friendships and there's

something good about that.

So you and I I think Chris if we lived in the same town We'll probably become very very good friends and there's something good about that and they want to

affirm that I just don't think that.

That's helpful to be affirming within any form of the language of homosexual.

So that's the way that I'm gonna be.

I'm trying to be nuanced in the way that I say it because again I recognize it's it's a complicated area and I just want to Have a

great word for any of our brothers and sisters who are seeking to be chased.

No matter how they're going about doing it.

We owe them great support in that in a culture all around them.

Which tells them the exact opposite to give in to their sexual desires whether they're right or wrong and of course.

Then there are people walking around call themselves Christians who are also saying that their their sexual desire for someone of

the same sex.

There's nothing wrong with that and so in the face of all of that they're trying to be faithful and I think we need to be a be

supportive of them in that and encouraging of them.

Yeah, the the attitude that one should view

themselves or others as Homosexual Christians or gay

Christians to me.

Yeah is it is as if They are denying the transforming power

of Christ now as you just said that there is no guarantee That somebody who comes

to Christ will ever cease having same -sex attraction.

There is a difference between having a view Like that than having a view that we a person is waving

the white flag and saying this is what I am.

I am NOT going to even pray to be transformed or delivered or

Given a new Biblical

view of the opposite sex in regard to a sexual attraction

people are being basically said, you know, this is the way you are and You know

just be chased but this is this is a category of humanity.

You are a gay person.

I radically oppose that that concept and I think that once again, I believe it is.

A.

Denial of the transforming power of Christ even if you say to

reiterate that Someone may spend the rest of their lives battling with the sin of same -sex

attraction.

I'm doing so faithfully and with great courage, right?

Right, but at the same time, I don't think that a Christian should Or will

ever wave the white flag and say this is just the way I am.

Yes, and that that disturbs me or even that this is somehow a gift from God for me.

They're never affirming that.

They're never affirming the same -sex activity.

We've got to be really clear on that.

But they are saying and somehow this is a gift of God.

I think at that point I part company with them.

Although I do want to continue to try to understand why they're coming to that conclusion and and seek

to say I Think the danger is that we take these guys and we just cast them all into the same bucket with

the out -and -out, you know Metropolitan Community Church guys and all that kind of stuff.

I think again, we just gonna be really careful.

We're listening carefully to to our brothers and sisters and and we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Let's go to one more listener question for now before we have you continue on a different thread.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York who says do you think that a lot of the problem that

we have in the church in the world regarding sins such as this is That people are

far too Preoccupied with feelings and emotions whether the feelings of others or their own.

There are certain things that we are going to feel in a negative sense.

That does not give us a license to Commit a sin or to dabble

in some ungodly behavior or thought pattern in order to appease

our own emotions and Sav our consciences.

I think that's a very good question because it does seem as if a person's feelings

are trumping The commands of Scripture in many cases even amongst

evangelicals in the way that they discuss and treat issues like this.

People are saying oh we cannot allow this person to have an unfulfilled sex

life Because that would be so cruel.

They would be so sad and depressed.

Well, there are a lot of heterosexuals Who for one reason or another know that they are never going to be married and therefore

never having sex and they shouldn't be lusting or even fantasizing in a sexual matter and Just

because they're going to be depressed over it Doesn't mean that we should give them some kind of an out where they can

Express themselves sexually if they're not married.

Do I am I making sense here?

And also respond to the listeners question.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Indeed and actually Again, every question about humanity. I need to take to Jesus don't I and I need to say and again

without being crude But let's be real Jesus was fully human if we believe that our

sex drive is part of our created humanity, which surely we must.

Chris.

Then I don't think it's wrong to say and I don't want I'm not trying to be rude or blasphemous and saying this that Jesus had A

healthy if I probably only man ever to have a truly healthy male sex drive and yet

he was and he is.

Celibate.

Yes, and he never lusted after a woman because that would.

That's right.

Exactly exactly, right?

So I don't think it's crude for us to say it in that way.

Therefore you it's and this is important for our single friends and I have a friend at the moment a lady doing a PhD in This because

she's actually so appalled by some of the poor stuff going on in the evangelical field on on on

singleness.

And it's and it's discussion.

So yes more broadly the question I think is it's spot -on that the church as

it does in so many areas has succumbed to the culture and the culture has made the

Individual the definer of what is true.

So so we live in this in this post -modern world.

Don't we where we don't go for absolutes and again, this is part of the deconstruction.

So remember again, we the queering stuff from before the social Marxist and feeding into a broader

philosophical climate I'm saying you just can't be sure about anything.

So these structures that we used to take for granted in the past you just can't be sure about anymore.

There are no absolutes there are no there is no just a way of knowing things for sure

particularly in what they might say are that the Non -scientific areas the sort of these philosophical areas and so forth.

And so therefore what do I have to fall back on if I can't go to an external frame of reference?

The only frame of reference I have is is myself and What I feel and what I think and therefore

I define for myself.

What is true?

And of course?

What will set the agenda for me?

Well follow your hearts and Jeremiah goes no no, no, no, no, no, because that's deceitful above all things who can understand it.

But we do it, you know, we follow our heart just be true to yourself.

Am I and the devil laughs because because we just you know, the heart is a cesspool of wickedness, isn't it?

Jesus mark 7 Shows us that so that's what's going on.

And and there are many of us in the church today who just bought into that be true to yourself

the the experiential Notion as as a frame of reference as an authoritative frame of

reference that is this is a side issue I think why we're seeing a resurgence as well in some of the charismatic stuff going on around us Chris

because it's buying into that same kind of personal experience.

As.

As authority so the answer for the Christian is therefore to say no.

I do have an external frame of reference by which I measure my own Experiences and of course it

is the Bible and so we just work through a bunch of stuff in the Bible about how God made us And what that's what that's meant to

look like.

And so that becomes then my frame of reference and that also becomes The means by which I can read the

scientific data around me as well.

So, um, I think we're going to move on in a moment to to the medical Stuff in this area and

when I do so I'm not saying this is the trump card that does everything.

But what I am saying is interesting, isn't it?

As we delve into the scientific the medical research and the work that we've got we find that it

it's begins to affirm The biblical created view that we've already seen from the Bible.

Funny that who'd have thought so but but but but there it is.

And we have to go to our final break right now.

And if anybody would like to join us while there's still time.

Do so now or forever.

Hold your your peace.

We still have a couple of you waiting for your questions to be asked and answered.

So, please be patient with us.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing.

We'll be right back after these messages.

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And Let's go right into the the medical

aspect of this before we take any more listener questions.

Sure thing.

So it's a complex area.

So I'm wary of oversimplifying but let me have a crack at just laying out laying out the basics.

The first thing to note is that the playing field for a lot of this is children and adolescents.

So that's where a lot of the debate is.

What do we do with children and adolescents when they experience gender dysphoria?

And we've got some good research.

So we do know for example that there's a lot of cross -gender behavior.

Amongst children are we cite reports of somewhere between 20 and 30 percent for for young boys and girls who

who behave in what?

We're at called cross -gender ways.

So for example, my young boy might put on a dress and flounce around for the afternoon pretending to be a girl.

That doesn't make him transgender.

It doesn't mean he wants to be a girl.

He just that's what he's doing.

He's messing around he's playing.

What's really interesting is that the?

Activists in this area for some of that research take that kind of behavior and say oh obviously

Transgender whereas when you get down to the best research when it comes to actually wanting to be a different

gender.

We're looking at figures of about nought point six and nought point two percent for for boys and girls

risk respectively.

What's really interesting I think is that so you've got this really really low rate of actual

Boys and girls and adolescents saying actually I really do think I'm a girl not a boy

it gets inflated because It's kind of the rage at the moment.

It's trendy to do and oh, yeah.

If everybody around me is saying oh, you know You actually might be a girl then actually I'm more tempted on time that sort of supportive environment for that

way of thinking to go.

Actually, yeah, maybe I'm a girl.

What's really interesting.

However, is that the persistence rate of dysphoria is Fascinating so we talk

about persisters and desisters that is to say take a child who has gender dysphoria.

At the age of maybe eight nine ten and look at them again when they've gone fully the way through

puberty 2021 are they persisting in their gender dysphoria and the best research we have

says 2 .3 percent of those who presented Child or

adolescence as being gender dysphoric only 2 .3 percent of them persist in that through through

to adulthood.

There is an incredibly high Likelihood of growing out of it and that's declared

even in the DSM and is supported by a number of independent Studies now that is

fascinating.

I think because there's big pushes in there at the moment for increasing intervention with children and adolescents.

But the actual data we have tells us for most of these boys and girls They will grow into

adulthood with a totally normal sense of of their of their gender identity matching up

with their physical biological sex in

in adults.

It's interesting as well.

So Our recent studies suggested that fewer than one in ten thousand adult biological males and one in thirty

thousand adult biological females Experienced gender dysphoria, but there are wide estimates and they

vary they vary widely.

Do we know where it comes from?

Well, we outlined in the report this the growing research in this area.

There's a whole bunch of different theories.

Developing entrance brains.

Maybe there's something going on prenatally maybe even within their own inner sex.

Hormones or some stuff about genetic factors.

And that's been largely unidentified.

Identified.

There's something about brain structure stuff.

There's been some work done in that area.

There's some work on the environmental mental aspects that is to say The nurturing so is it

nature on or nurture and again?

We say no single factor has been linked to the development of gender nonconformity.

But we have some twin studies that suggest that a number of social family situations may lead to gender

Nonconformity in biologically vulnerable children that is to say that there might be a biological Precursor

and then there'll be environmental factors that then trigger that much in the same way you talked about your alcoholism

Previously, so I think there's good scientific evidence now to say that some people are more disposed than others to alcoholism.

But there will also have been some environmental factors around you Chris that then drove you into that behavior.

So again those kinds of things and we talked through social reinforcement of gender roles.

We talked about psycho pathology.

We talked about the family dynamics.

And of course, we touched briefly on the influence of social media.

There's there's a social contagion element to this as well in in in recent

years how do you set out the the the wide background medically we then talk about a medical approach

and Talk about referral to gender clinics and all this kind of stuff.

We begin first of all with the management of children and we set out the three approaches one is called the living in your

skin approach, which is trying to Convert or get into reparative therapy to get a

child back into thinking the right way.

The other example the other extreme would be affirmative therapy where we affirm the child's new identity and we

even perhaps start to work on giving them hormones and things but the the middle

ground and.

And the one that matches the evidence we saw before is a policy just called waiting and watching.

Where if your child and this is important for parents that are listening if your child actually genuinely says I

Believe that I am the opposite gender don't panic because

97 .5 of those children by the time they finish puberty will not be saying that and so

what you actually just need to do.

And this is backed up by the research is just wait and watch and love and care and set some

boundaries.

And work through it and we set out the evidence against social transition and

we talk a lot about the puberty blockers that adolescents are given and the great The great danger

and the damage that they can they can cause there are many obviously irreversible Things that can be done

even some of the reversible treatments.

Leave their scars behind we go through that and of course, there are some surgical interventions that are that are ultimately

Irreversible, we then go on to talk about management in adults and we talk about hormone therapy and counseling and and the

experience and sex reassignment surgery.

What's really interesting, of course, is that the suicide rates are amongst people who identify as transgender are probably

some of the highest in our In the Western world.

I think it's Ben Shapiro The conservative commentator in America who notes that there's only one group in

Western Cultural history who have a higher suicide rate and it is Jews in concentration camps in

Nazi Germany.

So there's something going on here.

Wow.

Interesting is I know it's amazing, isn't it?

What's interesting is.

That.

Adults who have gone through medical transition have no statistically

significant change in their suicide rates.

So let's be really clear about this.

Medical transition does not help with suicide rates.

Amongst transgender people it just doesn't help.

So the suicide rates are statistically No statistical significance between them at all.

So what we've got at the moment is this crazy world view where we're saying

because we're saying your Experience is the is the determinative factor of who you are and therefore if you

are a man Who thinks that they're a woman we need to affirm that and do everything that needs to be done to affirm

that We're there for putting people into all sorts of brutal stuff that's being done to them.

Oh, you know.

Pumping them full of hormones and stuff like that But actually ultimately doesn't help

them.

It might give them a short -term fix.

It is to go back to your alcoholism.

Example Chris and again, I'm not making exact parallels and there are obviously differences in it.

But it's like saying if I had said to you when you were in the depths of Falling off the wagon if I said to you what

will help you most right now.

You would have said to me a drink.

Yeah, that's right.

Right, right.

So it's we're giving alcoholics a drink Essence because that's what they

really really want and of course in the short term.

That half a bottle of whiskey or whatever your your pickle of choice was would have made you feel much better.

Wouldn't it Chris?

Yeah, sure, that's right in the short term.

Yeah, and so we go see look it's working.

But actually what we're doing is leading people to such irreparable damage what's fascinating to me is I was just reading a thing the other day about Alan

Turing the famous British scientist who was a Homosexual and and was given a forcible

chemical castration treatment To cure him of his homosexuality

a pretty barbaric stuff that was done in the 1950s 40s and 50s to it's to these men, but actually we're doing the

same thing with men today who said that they're transgender.

But just because they choose to do it where we're saying we should we shall we shall do it for you.

When actually the scientific evidence is completely out and again this this this

progressive quote -unquote Worldview has ripped large

segments of our medical Community it's gripped their administrations.

It's made it impossible for people to stand up and say no famous Famous

leaders in this in this field.

There's a gentleman who's um, who's the leader in the field at Johns Hopkins?

University Hospital in the States who just basically was was was barracked out of his job

for simply saying look the evidence doesn't back.

What people are doing and here at Johns Hopkins, we're going to go for watch and wait.

Because it's the most sensible thing to do given the scientific data We have in front of us and of course the activists

jumped and pilloried him all over and and I think he ended up resigning.

His position it was that untenable For him.

So we've got this terrible terrible terrible situation at the moment where the medical the Administrations of the medical

bodies all over the Western world are succumbing to this political.

Tsunami.

And they're doing so under social pressure to impose an ideology.

And they're doing it actually almost against professional integrity.

So, you know, it's difficult stuff.

Yeah, you said something interesting.

Earlier in this most recent segment that is to me interesting as far as

propaganda.

Yeah, I don't know if you recall this in Australia.

But in America, I can clearly recall while growing up watching American

sitcoms on television.

And other and even talk shows that there was a prevalent attitude

that the left would demonstrate.

Where if somebody had a more conservative or traditional or even biblical view

of sexuality whether they were a Christian or not if they were to say

Let's say you're you're at a Thanksgiving Day celebration and a little kid walks

into the room wearing his mother's shoes.

Or if the kid says When I grew up, I want to be a fashion designer or if the kid says

I love to cook and this is a male child I'm talking about.

Yes, the the it would be the conservatives Tendency to say you better watch out for your kid.

I think your kid might be gay.

Yeah, and the liberal would say how dare you.

Those things can be explored and enjoyed by people of both gender.

We should never even draw that conclusion now.

It seems like it's a hundred and eighty degrees reversed.

It's the liberal saying I'll bet you your kid is gay.

Jumping on it saying well, obviously there must be gay or there must be transgender.

Right now what seems about that Chris is is is that shows us doesn't it?

How foolish our previously overly conservative position was one of the things we make clear.

I think I talked about it earlier is that there's a difference between Gender roles assigned to us

by God in our created nature to be worked out in certain relationships and then all these cultural

Accretions that come on top of it.

So, you know a Little boy that likes cooking is just a boy that likes cooking and we've

got to beware In our little conservative ghettos evangelical Christian ghettos that we're not

mistaking biblical norms for cultural norms and even

succumbing to some equally unhelpful Cultural ways of

Looking at things having said that again.

It does show it does show you again There's this queering notion that there's this deconstruction of any norm.

So so what the what the queering people are doing is they're saying all these norms are artificial

Constructions and and they all need to be destroyed.

They all need to be brought down and there's a point where we've got to we just got to work this out really carefully Chris.

We've we've overstated our case in some areas, but that doesn't mean we ought not to still be very very clear.

Where we need to be clear.

Okay, we have a listener who is going by the initials LP like little P in

Newville, Pennsylvania and the listener may not be little or green like a P but I'm just using that so we

know what the letters are and LP says.

What is your opinion about parents raising children who say they are gay and also parents who have

children?

Who are an adult who say they are gay, how do parents react to them in different aspects

of life?

Hi LP a great question.

I assume you mean a Christian parents.

I'll speak as a Christian parent.

Number one.

I'm not being cheesy about this or belittling it.

You've still got to love them.

They are they are your children.

And they are a man or a woman made in the in the image of God with a child

I would say Watch and wait.

Especially in the transgender area.

It seems to me very very clear the biblical the biblical.

So the medical scientific data is really clear.

The best outcomes come just from watching and waiting loving.

Set some clear boundaries.

Just say look, you know, it's okay for you.

If you want to to wear these clothes in certain context however, there's other contexts where you can't wear these

clothes.

And so we're going to work that out.

We're going to work that out together and I need you to respect me In this and we'll work it out together.

And if you're not panicking if you're recognizing that again 97 plus percent of these

children grow out of this transgender stuff, then you won't panic and you'll just wait and.

And you'll work it through you may need to do some work with Christians around you to help them to understand the issue.

But you need to be sensitive and loving and caring with the gay issue again.

Just very very hard.

It depends upon your relationship with your child.

I mean we want to be talking through What the Bible has to say and I think as your kids hit teenage

years.

You've you've got to be wise about how you talk to them.

So I'm saying to our to your child look.

You understand where I'm coming from.

And and if you don't let's sit down and talk about it together.

But we're not gonna be able to force our children to think certain ways.

They need to make up their mind for themselves.

Persuasion within a loving context is is is the best way of course in your house set your own

rules.

You may decide that you will not let an adult child Share a room with their same

-sex partner.

Of course you hopefully as a Christian parent you'll make a decision that in your house your adult child.

Even if they're not Christian won't share a room with their with their heterosexual partner until they're married.

So feel free to set those to set those rules and set them With with in a gracious manner,

but clearly your children will know why you take the view that you view that you do and why you do it and

they may either accept that with good grace and at a level of Maturity or they will rail and rage against

you because the world has told them unless you affirm them in every single way.

You're not loving them and I want to say at that point.

You're not responsible for their reaction.

But you are responsible for loving them for being clear for setting boundaries.

But also as they become adults for understanding that you are increasingly not responsible for their behavior.

And so, you know, they are they are these are agents before God.

They will answer for themselves.

And we need to trust God with it.

Don't wait in a lot of these things as parents.

We need to say God knows what he's doing.

I'm gonna do my best and and let God deal with the rest.

Well, how about if the Christian parent sat down with the child and said with an open

Bible you see here The the Bible which is God's Word.

It's Inerrant and it comes from his very breath.

Yes, that if you participate in that activity You will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Absolutely, and of course listing the other sins that are in that text as well.

But yeah, but being dead Serious about this as again again as serious as a heart attack

if you choose to make what I believe is a Deadly and damning mistake in the in

the the lifestyle that you choose to pursue.

I want you to know that Without the the shed blood of Christ and and without you repenting of this you will

not be in heaven.

And also crystal just say equally almost I want to say more importantly and again, I'm not downplaying this

the the importance of those clear warnings almost more importantly are Praising and upholding the

goodness of God's good created order because what I'm ultimately calling everybody to is not a change of

sexual behavior.

But to the Lord Jesus Christ as their great and good master creator Savior

Redeemer Dare I say it friend in the right sense Lord brother, and I'm

ultimately saying Jesus is so very very good.

We must trust him that he knows the best way for us and this is for our good.

So it's not just that I'm laying out a list of prohibitions or be it I need to and say you are in some serious danger here, but also to

say This is a good.

This is a very good creation that God has made He's intended things for your good and you will

find that life ultimately is is going to be better live this way.

This is a general sort of wisdom.

To living life that way as well and a goodness in knowing the Lord Jesus Christ.

Through whom I was made as all things were made and in whom my life and identity ought to be.

So I'm not just saying No to something I'm actually even more importantly pointing to the great Yes

of who Jesus is and I'm holding him up because ultimately what I want to be saying to to to this to this

child.

Who are we all in a way our culture is made as all adult children.

We are so trapped in our feelings and the culture around us that it seems impossible for us.

Sometimes humanly speaking to imagine that I can be happy outside of this construct that I've made for

myself.

Well, what does Jesus do.

He comes along and says here is a better way of thinking about yourself.

Here is actually a greater good here is here is the the true satisfaction of being human

here is here.

Is the wonder of of life lived as it's meant to be meant to be lived which not least of course means

the knowledge of my?

Justification of my right standing before God.

And that I will make it through Judgment Day and I will live in his good and perfect new creation.

But also that right now I can know what it means to live to live with him.

So I want to emphasize the good as well as setting out the proscriptions.

Well, thank you.

LP in Newville, Pennsylvania.

Keep listening to iron trip and Zion radio and spreading the word in Newville, Pennsylvania and beyond.

We have Ted and Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

Who says David mentioned the backing of scientific research on the psychological effects of

transgenderism.

Just as we can reliably predict that whenever there is a natural disaster

Certain Christians will be citing the Tower of Siloam story.

We also know that the solid scientific research on transgenderism is Referred.

That is referred to will come from psych psychiatrist Paul

McHugh.

Of Johns Hopkins University, I believe you just mentioned him if I'm not mistaken yet.

Also, yes yet also predictively.

Those in the left will decry McHugh as a kook or perhaps a quack.

Is this the is this the research David is referring to if so.

Can if so can be speak to.

I don't know if that's a typo there.

Can we speak to perhaps to dr McHugh's qualifications.

If not, can he tell us whose research he is referring to?

Sure, so McHugh is one of the pieces of reach one of the many pieces of research that we referred to

so he has a um.

He has a well, we actually refer to an article.

He wrote in the Wall Street Journal.

But um, there's also a wide body of research that he's done.

He was seen to be an expert at Johns Hopkins on this on this issue.

We we do however cite an incredibly large range of research in in the piece.

So it's not just no one guy that we're relying upon.

DeVries is work Hughes I'm just reading from from the footnotes

of our of the medical section Lawrence Zucker Coleman rubble DeVries Costa.

And so on we there's a whole we did a large Range of reading when I say we mostly the scientists who were on the

panel.

I tried to read some of the stuff myself.

So so we're not just relying on one person.

We're going to the trying to get the broadest Section of research in this area that we

can find and find good qualitative data.

So so there are some there's some so good quantitative data.

There's some good qualitative work with interviews and so forth and we did some we're doing some research ourself in the area

as well.

We've we've done some stuff in the diocese and wider a field, but it's the quantitative stats that are really interesting, isn't it?

It's the it's the actual the raw figures measurement and for that

Dare I say you need to have a little bit of knowledge in statistics.

You need to be able to understand how how that research is done and be able to critique it accordingly but we

had two members of our writing panel as I said were our academics for whom this is their bread and butter and.

And we've worked through that all that that wide range if you want to see the wide range of Research

than that.

Can I suggest read the report and I'm sure Chris you'll link to it on the page of this podcast by the

time that we're done, but there's a huge amount of resources that we've gone to.

And also we try to set it out in an orderly fashion so that a lay reader Like you or me Chris can

make sense of it and understand the argument that's being made.

And.

I would like to know what is the difference between a kook and a quack?

But.

Well, I want you to give whatever contact information because we have run out of time now.

Whatever contact information that you can give where people can read

this report I know once again that the st. John's Anglican Cathedral.

There in the Sydney area of Australia is st. John's Cathedral org

.au.

That's st. John's Cathedral org .au.

That's for the st. John's Anglican Cathedral in Parramatta, Australia.

What other contact information would you.

Well probably the first instance of people want to start reading this material then my website David old Old

.net.

I'm in the middle of writing a series where I'm trying to summarize this report and And the header of each of those blog

posts contains a link to to the original gender identity report of the diocese Which is a public

document, so it's publicly available on the Sydney diocese website.

But if you if readers go to David old net They will see a bunch of work by me at the moment

in this field where I'm trying to set out The the summary of this of this long

Necessarily long Paper trying to summarize it in chunks and also a couple of articles on some contemporary

issues in the Australian Anglican Church.

Where this is being applied and it's David.

Oh you LD net and that's right.

Thank you so much for being on the program today.

If you could hold on when we go off the air I'd like to say a proper goodbye to you.

I want to thank everybody I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your Lives that Jesus

Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.