A Remote Dividing Line that Did Not Look Remote

Greetings and welcome to the Dividing Line. My name is James White and Should look sort of normal, but not really normal today.

We're doing a little experimentation today. Hope you can Work along with us.

We have been working for a long time on getting a way of being able to do the program while traveling and We've ordered stuff and I guess the first time we ordered one thing it like ended up in Botswana or something.

Who knows? But we we eventually put together stuff and what's going on is tomorrow evening at Six o 'clock

Pacific Time nine o 'clock Eastern Time. I'm pretty sure about that we have a

Discussion roundtable slash debate going on on Apologetic methodology four different views.

I think there's only three different views, but there's four different people and so That's gonna be being done the same way.

We're doing this. I'm not actually in the studio I'm actually in my house and For example tomorrow night

This is what I will be Doing the roundtable like this.

Ta -da With my library and And then here is my prediction for the

October surprise I've said we're gonna have we're gonna have multiple October surprises 2020 We'll probably have a daily surprise all through October.

But this is this is my big pretty my big prediction for October will be an invasion by the

Borg I'll be Assimilated. So yeah, so that's what we're doing today.

And I sort of thought well the Dialogue tomorrow night is gonna be being done in the same way.

We're doing this so I'm zooming into the office and then we're using a program to put that out to YouTube and That's how you're able to see it without being connected up with zoom

That's the same thing for tomorrow night The four of us will be zoomed into one meeting and then that would be put out toward you on YouTube I've already posted the link to the they've already put up the

YouTube link for tomorrow evening So you can set a reminder and all the rest that kind of stuff, but my thinking was

Yeah, okay. So we had tested this briefly yesterday one person five minutes

But it's never the five minutes that goes wrong It's the 55 minutes that goes wrong or the two hours or however long the conversation is supposed to be

Tomorrow evening. So I thought let's give it a little bit more of a test See what else could happen

I mean My experience in running sound at a large Baptist Church years and years ago

Proved to me that everything can be working fine while you're testing it and then

Once it's game time Everything changes. So we decided let's give it a let's give it a shot and later we're gonna look at maybe having a phone caller or two because I Would help if I can make sure that the back and forth as far as being able to hear

Works really well, too. So There you go. That's why it looks a little a little bit different, but that's that's that's the right background anyways

But you'll notice the warp core is not moving so I can fix that I can actually

I could actually do I could actually make a video that would That would do that and I'm not sure even how to turn

I don't think I can turn all that stuff off if I mute it then I can't hear anything So you're probably gonna hear a few beeps and blaps and stuff

During the program, but no one's ever died of bleeps and blaps anyway

You probably saw it. I certainly saw it yesterday. It was posted a

Talking about race from the NMAHC which is the

National Museum of African American history and culture in Washington DC and What really struck me this graphic Look it up.

It's everywhere. It's it's all over Twitter. It's all over Facebook. It's everywhere But aspects and assumptions of whiteness white culture in the

United States And of course anything that's white is bad now

But what was really interesting was the stuff that was identified as being white culture

Bob Gagnon put a Facebook article up about this and he sort of put it all together

If a white supremacist group Said that whiteness was characterized by rugged individualism

Self -reliance emphasis on scientific method objective rational linear thinking preparedness planning for the future self -control delayed gratification a strong work ethic work before play

Optimism tomorrow will be better Monotheism focus on a single God concept punctuality follow rigid time schedules and politeness be polite therefore implying that blackness entailed dependency on handouts irrational thinking short -sightedness and absence of self -control laziness pessimism polytheism animism lateness and rudeness

They would be roundly denounced for their stereotyping racism. And of course, he's right

But that's exactly what is in this graphic from the

National Museum of African American history and culture it is Amazing and what needs to be recognized?

I think it's very very important to see here and what needs to be recognized is They specifically identify

The Protestant work ethic they specifically identify hard work work before you play

Delayed gratification like making maybe even having a savings account or basically being an adult as aspects of whiteness and The thing that we need to recognize

I think and the author of this did recognize it because they they mentioned

Christianity more than once what the scriptures identify as Evidence of the spirit self -control

Sanctification mortification of the flesh Discipline This identifies as whiteness

Well, what's what then if you get rid of whiteness if you you know, we have entire cities right now forcing their employees to go through Sensitivity training to rid themselves of their whiteness

So they don't show up for work on time now. Is that is that how that that's supposed to work?

How does that show respect for anybody else? I've never understood that I mean, we we all know people who can't get anywhere on time and We always wonder

You know once or twice I get it, you know, all of us have been late due to Unforeseen circumstances, but when you've got someone who is always late

Just always late That's a character flaw. That's a lack of preparation.

That's Really? Honestly not showing respect For anybody else

I mean if you're a teacher you need to be on time if you respect your students if you are an employer you need

To be on time to open the place up. You don't want your your employees standing outside Waiting for you to show up if you're the one that ends up opening things up, etc, etc.

This is just simple adulthood and It's interesting to me that the same time something like this comes out

You may have just seen and this one really caught my attention the video

From an airport, I don't know which airport it was. I know they were going to Philadelphia and There was a delay

Shocking that's never happened in an airport before and Here you have a group of black women young women, probably late teens early 20s, maybe mid 20s

Attacking The employees of the airline a spirit airline Punching them swinging throwing stuff just going nuts over a delayed flight

Now part of this is just simply the the the raising of the hand of God's restraint of evil.

I mean, it's just Have I say I think I've mentioned this before has anyone else noticed this Everybody is driving 10 miles per hour faster on the freeway now just over the past few weeks if you notice that I mean

I set my I've got a Subaru Forester. I love that's beautiful.

It's awesome vehicle and It's super geeky and it has the interactive cruise control

Stay in your lane all that kind of stuff And I love it But I set it for the same speed to get out to church on a

Sunday afternoon because we meet at 4 o 'clock You have church on a Sunday set for the same speed and now

I feel like I'm in Sun City Or I'm the Sun City driver and everyone's just going right past me and I've set it for the same speed that I've been setting it for for ever since we started going out there and now it's

Our slow and it just seems like everybody's like well, we're defunding the police the police aren't gonna bother me

So I'm just gonna go ahead and start throwing things and beating people up and and everything else in the process

But the in that video it was a group of black women Who were

I think attacking at least one black poor black woman who's working for the airline? And by the way, the poor person at the gate has nothing to do with anything

They can't they can't make planes land faster. They can't they can't get ground stoppages clear

They can't take care of gate issues as far as what gate the planes coming into if the gates

They're not available and they They can't do anything Blaming them and going after them is just dumb

Really is but anyway It did seem that what this

Graphic was saying had communicated to those young ladies because they weren't doing any of the things the self -control

Threats that stuff though. Interestingly enough. They were demanding that the airline

Be white Because they wanted to flight to be what on time.

Oh Wow This and again this stuff has been out there

We've actually been pointing to this stuff But it always seemed like it was just on the fringes someplace.

It's not on the fringes anymore It's on the fringes anymore. It's becoming Absolutely mainstream and that's rather frightening

So it's interesting What you're seeing then is an identification of the fruit of the spirit

With whiteness now, what do you think that's intended to do? What do you think that's intended to do?

This morning. Let me see if I can pull it up here. I thought

I had left that I'd left that up Well, the problem is having this is you've got

I've got stuff everywhere and it's right in front of me so I can't keep looking at the camera and I'm trying to pull stuff like this up, but This morning

Tom Buck, well, actually he sent it to me last night Tom Buck was is talking right now about a

Lecture on hermeneutics from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and He has posted some videos of a black woman professor

Who is talking about African Insights into biblical interpretation now

We live in a day where people are literally saying that everything needs to be

Decolonialized whatever in the world that means. I Suppose in the

United States that would mean you tear everything down We've built and everybody lives in log cabins or something.

I don't know But We've heard of people saying in Africa, for example people saying we need to get rid of Western science and mathematics because it's

Colonial and you're just going but that's where the hospitals come from and the medical advances and electricity and cell phones and You sure you want to get rid of that?

Because I'm without mathematics and that stuff works hate to tell you that but Sort of dependent upon that, you know doing math and again going back to the graphics, you know education based

That kind of stuff do you really want to get rid of that and So we've started seeing people

Teaching things in our various sundry seminaries and institutions of higher learning

Where what you need to do is you need you need to open yourself up to new perspectives

Don't just well remember Beth Moore going through her her library and trying to Get it to be less white

You know, all I've got are books by old white guys. And so what's in the book?

the depth of its learning the accuracy of its information, I Mean the vast majority of our

Greek lexicons are Done by what would be called white guys.

They're Europeans primarily and So you would have no mechanism left to do

Translation work if you decolonialized New Testament studies if you decolonialized

Textual critical studies. I mean Munster is in Germany of all places

It's really white there and so What how does all this?

How's all this end up working out when you say you want to get rid of? Whiteness and you need to start listening to other perspectives

The Bible was not written in Africa or in the United States or in South America or in Russia or in China We do pay close attention

To the historical context expect the Reformation really opened that up did it really did a really good job in opening that up and and Helping us to really emphasize the reality that we want to know what the original author was saying to the original audience

We want to know What how he wanted his words to be interpreted we want to know how they would have interpreted his words and Then and only then can we then make application to the many many different cultures?

That the scriptures have gone out to and so we recognize that different cultures will interpret the message in Different ways what we want to do is want to communicate in such a way that the message doesn't get lost in the translation

But the method of interpreting the original languages and scripture and Getting getting that core first that doesn't change doesn't matter what color you are

What ethnic group you're associated with what your background is and it has nothing to do?

With what your grandpappy did to my grandpappy or my grandpappy did to your great uncle None of that's relevant that that has no meaning at all

But we're being told today. Oh, it has its its primary. It's the primary focus. It's the primary lens.

Oh That's gonna lead to Further division, obviously, that's that's what all this stuff is about divide divide divide divide divide break down break down break down break down break it that's

That's all it can do. That's what it was designed to do. That's what it's accomplishing. So I'm gonna try to do something here

That I don't know I'm going to be able to do but I'll give it a shot

I guess that's not the way to do it. Oh, here we go share screen and Yeah, this here should work

So, let's see if this works, okay I'm watching the chat that's set up with rich so they can know and boom and Here's the real question will you be able to hear this?

Okay, you've got the screen Let's see if you can hear it I'm not sure if you'll be able to because of the sound input, but if I shut up and it's loud enough

Maybe it will let's find out Okay So, why isn't that playing

Okay, stop the share and All's because the entire photos program seems to have crashed

Yes, it did. Look at that It it has died a thousand deaths. It is just simply maybe it doesn't like zoom.

That's well This is why we got to find that find these things out It's a it's a

Mac thing he says Yeah, I can't even

I can't even well I'm able to minimize it but I'm not able to minimize it So, all right, so I can't play that.

That's a that's a shame. I thought I it worked beforehand But it's not working now for some reason.

I don't know why That's weird, there's obviously some type of a conflict there

Whoa didn't want to do that. Oh That's even making it worse Yeah There we go.

Make it smaller. There we go. Sorry about that folks, but I wanted to play you her statement wherein she was

Talking about okay. I got got to jump out of at least where it was

I'm just gonna have to my basically what she was saying is that there we need to allow for The uniqueness of the

African worldview in producing hermeneutics and that Africans have been interpreting the

Bible for 2 ,000 years and so we need to tap into that as if there is an

African interpretation and a European interpretation and a South American interpretation maybe there's a

Russian interpretation who knows what and Once again if all that's being said and that's not what was being said, but if that if all was being said is

That once you have done The serious work of exegesis and You have not defined words by an

African lexicon versus a European lexicon versus a South American lexicon versus a

Alaskan lexicon You Find out what the original author

Intended to communicate to the original audience You find out what analogies he was using how they would have understood those things

Once you have that core message Then it's perfectly appropriate to talk about How to communicate that with clarity

When certain cultural artifacts might Interrupt the communication of the meaning of the text

So some of this gets into something I'm not gonna get into today, but I'll just mention something called semantic domains the

Ranges of meanings of words and the fact that when you translate into the languages

You have to be very very careful that you're using words where the semantic domain in the target language and in the original language are

As similar as possible some big mistakes have been made and you've heard you've you've heard the stories about how to translate

Lamb of God into certain cultures where Lamb has a specific meaning that Does not map to what was originally intended

And so you've got a you got to see if you can come up with something else to communicate in a meaningful fashion

There that's fully understandable but critical theory Doesn't isn't talking about that last thing.

It wants to cause the division up here at the front. It wants to cause the division in The idea that there is a singular meaning

That is discernible and communicable down through time is

What critical theory is meant to destroy you? You can't you can't have that that's that would be way too unifying some of an issue and critical theory is anti Unifying just look around you look at what critical theory is doing to our culture and you will see that its fundamental effect and purpose and goal is

Disunification breaking apart anything that could cause any Unity and when that comes into the church

Wow, is it a problem? Is it a problem? And so with that in mind

I was directed I don't know why I don't see these things.

I really think that I Really think that Twitter is trying to get rid of me in many different ways but I Did not see this

Thread Maybe it's because it was too late at night or something. I don't know but the BD any ability put out a thread and What we're looking at here in this thread that started 5 or 6 a .m.

July 16th. It's actually was this morning What we're really seeing here is sort of an inter

TGC discussion going on and Kevin de Young and Greg Morris Had written posts

My assumption I didn't look them up, but my assumption is that they had something to do with some of the

Super massive Black racism that we saw

Expressed on the last program. I played the Nick Cannon stuff the

Farrakhan stuff, I mean if if anyone hesitates to identify

Louis Farrakhan as The worst level of racist you can be

No one argues. No one disputes that Farrakhan has taught literally for decades

That if you have if you are non melanated No one's not melanated except albinos, but if you are non melanated you are a demon

You're a demon. You you are you are not even a human being He is a racist has always been a racist and he leads a racist group an organization and yet He has full access to members of Congress.

The Democrats have been fawning over Farrakhan forever So not overly shocked

That Nick Cannon would be Involved with this kind of stuff But as I said, it's been there for a long time.

So you've got the black Hebrew Israelites and then you've got The Nation of Islam, which doesn't have almost anything to do with Islam, but it's called the

Nation of Islam and so my my gut feeling is people were had to comment on On How you should interpret seeing someone who is black

Expressing Plainly biblically defined racism

It's biblically defined. So in other words, it's hatred. It's Prejudice Against someone based upon the way

God made them and I've been saying for a long long time if racism is a sin then all of Adams sons and daughters are

Capable of committing it but critical theory says no Because racism you can't talk about sin not in a biblical sense.

You can talk about it from their perspective. There's there's definitely Sin now, it's just a violation of what the state says not a violation of what scripture says

But from their perspective racism requires power and Since it is claimed that they don't have the systemic structural power

Then therefore they can't be racist and of course the reality is Many of us grew up as poor as church mice and had no power either so the idea that we by the nature of our

Melanization have to be racist without power whereas other people with melanin

Grew up with a silver spoon But they can't be racist is of course absurd But that's the absurdity of our society right now, and I think there was a day when to be the onion

Really would have recognized that But I think what we're seeing in the thread that he posted

And I've noticed that a lot of people just given up on trying to deny the existence of race just talking about ethnicities a

Lot of Christians have just started going. Yeah. Well your race my race. There's only one race But basically what you're reading here is

His assertion He says in the last 24 hours And Greg Morris both lovely and faithful brothers and Lord both making good points about the ways we can wrongly judge at individual levels and both appearing to resolve an individual individualistic conclusions at group phenomena

We need the cautions they give all of us but in this season what we need most is careful understanding of racism itself and of the culture's tendency to overindividuate as A way of minimizing racism and absolving oneself notice culture not not not scripture

Not the early church not the applesauce example it's not just and it's not just culture as Culture that would have existed

Anywhere else in the world up until the 20th century in the United States. It's u .s

21st century culture and you can go back to the 20th for some of it This isn't there's there's nothing

Bible in here there really isn't it's it's all cultural so the culture's tendency to overindividuate as a we have way of minimizing racism and absolving oneself

Well, how does this work in regards to? Farrakhan Farrakhan and The the nation of Islam are racists

They are black Racists. I haven't seen a lot of people

Really just making a big deal out of that Maybe it's just because it's been so well known for so long or I don't know or it just doesn't fit the narrative

But he's a black racist so his group is A black racist group.

It's a black supremacy group as the black

Hebrew Israelites are too in their various ways and so How would this make how would this make application how that be relevant as a way of minimizing racism does

Pointing out the individual responsibility of the members of Farrakhan's group of the black Hebrew Israelites Does that somehow minimize their racism or does it call for them?

Personally to repent of their racism. That's that's a question That's a question.

I remember I've got a Got a microphone on here now and start swinging the hands around I can end up knocking it off He says another tool in that process all sides ism

Now here's here's where it gets a little scary Because what he says is a simple adieu to justice to the issues to acknowledge historical and theological abuses as Kevin does or contemporary instances as Greg does only to write applications and conclusions that risk ignoring the asymmetry of these sins abuses systems and instances

So the idea is okay Yeah, there are and and he specifically says that there are black racists

It says to be sure both groups have attitudinal racists among them and have lunatic fringes

But that's not to suggest they've committed the same sin in the main so now we have

Racism is a different kind of sin depending on what your race is

Now he's using the word sin, but he's not defining sin biblically. He's defining it culturally

That's what we've got to be watching here, this is what's been coming into TGC for a long time now is

Instead of Identifying instead of doing what we're supposed to do if you're gonna say something's sin get into the word and show me where it's sin

Instead we get the use of Christian language With the definitions of the world.

So we have different races Committing different sins but they're not the same sin in the main and notice

Above there was sins abuses systems and instances

So you've got to get systemic racism in there somehow because that's that's vitally important Got it.

Got to sneak it in there, even if you can't substantiate it from scripture It's simply it's not true not not to be left open to suggestion that if African Americans, I'm assuming that's what a a's

Have either thought the same way about or acted the same way toward white Americans in these matters

The miracle of black history is that we fought for everyone's humanity despite recognizing inhumane treatment that just wait a second notice the shift to the best of our group versus the worst of your group and It's back to dividing on the basis of race.

It's it's critical theory Functioning to divide things up and to allow distinctions to be made where there's no place the distinction within the

Christian faith. So You cannot suggest according to Thabiti that African Americans have either thought the same way or acted the same way toward white

Americans really I've seen a lot of videos recently of some

You know those young black guys with the skateboards and rocks

That just just about killed that one fellow early on in the rioting yeah,

I I Do you really think it could get any worse than that? I think the sin that was filling their heart is just as depraved as any

White man lynching a black man a hundred years ago was are you saying it isn't? Let's let's leave the

United States This is where this is where all of CRT collapses Of course is when you leave the narrow confines the

United States of America. Let's transport this to Africa and Reverse the roles.

Is it somehow less sinful? Is it sinful in a different way? this is what happens when you

Allow the external lenses to become The means by which you

You interpret these things and so What we're seeing in this thread is an internal conversation within TGC pretty much sort of leaking out into into the public

He says in the main the worst animus the most dehumanizing stereotypes and tropes the terrorist violence the abusive use of policies, etc

Has been largely one -directional in the history of the United States up until recently, but only

United States in Comparison to the Communist China the United States is a paradise for black people

I Would invite to be to go to China and try to do what it is here Won't happen

Won't happen The level of racism is that deep? the tropes the abusive use of policies

Things like that getting disappeared Yeah So there you go

Then there's a bunch of of course a bunch of bunch of bunch of book recommendations for various and sundry people

He he says The kind of moderation these posts seem to aim at does very little to actually deepen our understanding of our particular identities and challenges therein

Moderation should not always be the Christians goal Sometimes we need a more radical and incisive analysis and voice

This is not the Sabiti and you really that I spoke at a conference with back in 2008 He's changed.

She knows he's changed. He gets mad when you suggest it, but he has and he has radically And here we are at a time where radical

Marxism is marching through our streets and it sounds like the Beatty's going Yes might be what we need. Maybe what we need

Remember Marxism is the most anti -christian thing on the planet Just ask the millions who died at his hands in the last century.

Oh goodness So they're trying to be moderate and He says to be frank moderate evangelicalism has never been the prophetic and redemptive movement that God's people ought to represent in fallen societies

Moderation has often been the gentler hand that slows progress and numbs conscience

Well the Beatty I'm really wondering where your conscience is right now The people who are dying in this revolution right now are black people

They are being murdered right left and centered by other black people Because these systems that were at least somewhat well not in Chicago, but in other cities holding

That violence back have been removed in the name of the progress of Marxism You should know your history better than you do

You should know whose hand you're holding here You should know what promoting the side that is

Closest to the Chinese Communist Party is going to result in in the long run

You should know these things but you don't anymore and It's it's a shame to see it really is a shame to see

Speaking of China Why don't we by the way, why don't we

Take a phone call So we can test our our phone system eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three

Three three four one. We'll just take one one call one question Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number

I had to find some way of I Should have a graphic of that. I bet you I bet you

I bet you that's possible to do Well, we'll learn some more stuff, but I bet you I could Have it flashing on screen

But we'll just we'll take one phone call if you don't mind being a guinea pig and We can we can answer question or anything, but do you want to make sure that that kind of thing?

That kind of thing is gonna work But before we do that discern has an article that Again should not surprise us, but we need to be reminded of it

Do dated this morning. Well actually today this little afternoon Christians in China ordered to renounce faith

Worship communist government to receive welfare welfare payments impoverished

Christians living in China who are receiving aid from the state have been ordered to renounce their faith or Have their welfare benefits revoked according to reports from bitter winter a non -profit organization dedicated to religious and human rights in China During a government meeting in the city of Linfen near the northern province of Shanxi Officials from all villages under the city's jurisdiction were instructed instructed to remove crosses religious symbols and images from the homes of Christians who receive welfare payments and Replace them with images of Chairman Mao Zedong and president

Xi Jinping For those Christians who refuse to comply the officials are told to withdraw their welfare

Benefits a member of a three -self church located in one of the villages said that officials destroyed all religious symbols pertain to Christianity within his home and posted a picture of Mao Impoverished religious households can't receive money from the state for nothing

They must obey the Communist Party for the money. They receive the believer recalled the officials scolding The policy is also being implemented in other parts of the country the government and Xinyu City Withdrew a disabled

Christians minimum living subsidy and a monthly disability allowance of around $14 a church member in her 80s from Jiangji Poyang County Had her monthly subsidy of $28 removed for saying thank

God when her check arrived. You're supposed to say thanks.

Xi Jinping An official from a village administered by city in the eastern province of Shandong Invaded a home and posted portraits of Mao and Xi saying these are the greatest gods if you want to worship somebody they are the ones a

Christian from what why why Hui City Who refused to sign a statement renouncing her

Christian faith had her allowance cancelled She depended on state money to support her two sons after her husband died now

What We we know That Xi Jinping Wants to be worshipped

We know the Chinese Communist Party Wants to take the place of God for the

Chinese people We know that our brothers and sisters are suffering horribly under the

Chinese Communist system and we know that we have Marxists in our own streets trying to establish the same kind of insufferable inhumanity in our own land

I would consider them to be enemies of Freedom and Liberty But what you need to understand is the mindset here how many people

Have now been made Beholden to the United States government since February there had been the most drastic reduction in food stamp recipients and everything else

Over the past few years, but all that's been changed Thanks to the Great Panic of 2020 we look at the death totals and the numbers have almost zeroed out

But right now we're going back into lockdowns Christians in California can't meet to worship again and Everyone's running around wearing their face diapers.

So what has been happening is a forced a

Creation of a dependence upon government it's been going on for a long time, but it has

Accelerated amazingly over the past number of months as you well know the government made a loan

Available that included nonprofits, but it's primarily for small businesses It's funny money, it's a stimulus thing.

It's funny money, but you know, there's no there's nothing it backs it It's just there and many churches the the names came out

Over just so just last week. I only saw Arizona, but there's evidently a website that has all the states many many churches took

Tens of millions hundreds of millions probably billions of dollars For the

United States government as many other people are as well What you see here is the end result what our government our government right now is not run by someone who wants you to put their picture up in the house and Worship them rather than Jesus But what would stop that from happening?

The mindset here is that could never happen here. Why? If you're a Christian, I'm asking you why

Because if you dig dig down enough there the only reason the only answer you can come up with is well, it couldn't happen here because We don't think

God would do that to us. Why not? Our legal system

Defends infanticide them Defends parents who want to inject their eight -year -old boys

With hormone blockers to try to turn them into Girls, which of course can't happen.

So it's just simply destroys their bodies. They can ever reproduce There's no such thing as transitioning.

It can't happen No matter what so Why wouldn't why wouldn't

God allow that to happen here? What functionally?

Biblically would keep you but would cause you to come to conclusion that if God wanted to in 20 years

You could have Thugs breaking into every home in the United States and putting up pictures saying worship this worship this man.

Whoever it might be Bider hunting Bider hunting hunter

Biden Now we'll just call him Bider hunting because that way we don't have to worry about all that money

Including Chinese money. Oh, how'd I know anyway? It could happen it really could why why could it not happen?

Would it would it not be just It would be just that's problem

So here's here's Christians in China order to renounce faith worship communist government to receive welfare payments.

So once you get everybody Dependent on the state the state then gets to tell you how to do everything

What to eat what not to eat what to wear where to go? The bigger the state the smaller the citizen that is a truism that cannot be avoided

The bigger the state the smaller the citizen and the church should know that too

Every church that said yeah, well, we'll take some of that How can that church stand up prophetically and say anything to the state when it starts doing things like this?

When your hands are stained with the ink of the money that you took well

Some thoughts some thoughts. Okay so let's let's find out if our

If we're gonna be able to take phone calls this way we've done it in the past But we're doing it in a particular way right now.

So let's If you're ready rich, let's talk to Jordan. Okay. Hi Jordan Hey, how you doing?

Dr. White? I'm doing good. I'm actually have to turn you down here a little bit good. Oh Okay, so it's probably working just a little bit too good

Not as long as I can hear you. That's the important part Sometimes even with my earphone in I can't hear what people are saying

It's a little tough, but that just could be age. But anyways, what would you like to talk about about John Owen?

okay, so the The particular argument that John Owen made where he presented three different Options of the atonement you could either have

God saving no one God saving everyone or or God atoning for no one God atoning for Everyone I've got atoning for someone

Is and this is just like a preface to the question is it? Isn't it true in Reformed theology that it that you?

Have a particular understanding that that the wrath of God abides on The unbelieving elect person until they have faith

Which is the reason they're being regenerated. Yes So, okay

Yeah So once they're regenerated the wrath of God that was abiding on them is no longer abiding on them because now they have the right

That's the right to him Romans chapter 5 you are either in Adam or in Christ and Those who are only in Adam can only receive from Adam what they can receive of him, which is death

But the elect are in Adam when they're born but then they're in Christ and therefore they receive from him eternal life and there is a point in time where they

Experience that which has been made certain for them in eternity indeed at the cross itself

Unless we have the idea that when Christ dies There is no personal union between himself and the elect so in other words if if we have the idea that when

Christ died, he simply made a well a Treasury of Merit type thing available or a provided for a

Group of people that at that time Did not yet exist and could only be known to God By looking down the future and seeing what their free will actions would be something along those lines

I'm trying to think what a provisionist would say But the problem is that leads to an impersonal atonement

So but that's not really what Owen was talking about when he's and and I'm not sure that Not sure that that's

Owens only argument. I mean I had a non primarily non reformed professor in in Bible College who

Made the exact same argument he said when you think about logically God can either save no one or God can save everyone or God can save someone and In only one of those three scenarios.

Does God have any choice? Does God can God make any choices? and so That's more of an objection or an issue regarding election than it is specifically atonement.

I would think Okay, yeah, and that was just a preface to the

Real question that I wanted to call in about I just wanted to make sure I got my facts, correct

I didn't want to misrepresent anything But the question in regards to The wrath of God abiding on the elect and before they've come to faith

It's because and I'll just share what I personally believe about the atonement I do believe in an unlimited atonement, and I do believe that in that unlimited atonement

There is a truly fully accomplished substitutionary atonement having been made that Christ truly died and bearing the sins of all the world personally for each and every single individual and Then through faith whoever believes in Christ will receive

Christ's righteousness as their own and is credited to them But at the same time

I do believe some of those atoned for people will go to hell and the reason why is unbelief and I know that the objection is well if you have anyone who

Goes to if you have any one of those who were atoned for it go to hell Then you have this double jeopardy type thing going on but one of my

Responses to that would be enough and in my mind this seems to be a bit of an inconsistency,

I guess Be due to the fact that the that the reformed people believe that God's wrath that Christ fully atoned for already on the cross abides on the elect until they believe

So if the so if the argument of Double Jeopardy is valid If the argument saying that God cannot or will not cause someone who he died for To be then punished for their sins themselves if he's already atoned for him

If that's true, then why does the wrath of God abide on those he elected those who he died for?

Until they come to faith, I feel like we both Share the belief that faith in Christ and what he did for us in our place is what causes that wrath?

to No longer abide on us and to no longer Be imputed to us our sins were no longer be

Counted against us and that what causes that is faith. Do you understand what

I'm asking? I do it doesn't make any sense, but I do understand what you're saying. You're going backwards though You think you've got a parallel but you've actually put it backwards because when we talk about people being the children of wrath

That's because they're born in Adam. It's not that God's wrath breaks forth upon them and destroys them

It's not that God's wrath breaks forth upon them and punishes them in this life So you have you're trying to create a parallel which is actually backwards because what you're saying is

Christ bears in Him himself though. He knows That this will not accomplish the redemption of this individual

He bears in his body the punishment due to their sins, which includes unbelief

So all impediments are removed from them, but then When they die because they have not been regenerated all those sins will be punished in them a

Second time in eternity unless you're unless you are conditionalist or you reject that kind of a concept or whatever else it might be so What we're talking about is that we are born in Adam and there has to be a transfer in our experience

Into our union with Christ. That's not something that we bring about. That's something that God foreordains

That's what election is all about but he has also elected to do that in time you're turning that upside down and going

Outside of life and saying well if you could have someone who's atoned for Have wrath upon them before regeneration then

I can go ahead and have them atone for and That will be for all of eternity. So the the two are going different directions

But even more so the the more obvious Error that I see is is

Jesus interceding For the people in hell today

If he's not your system just collapsed Because Jesus intercedes for every person for whom he dies so is

Jesus interceding for the people in hell and what is the nature of that intercession and what's its purpose?

No, he's not he's not interceding for those in hell and I believe and you know I've been listening to you for years and just have a tight comment.

I'm very thankful for your ministry and everything I I really do appreciate all the work that you do and So having listened to you, you know,

I hear you talk about Hebrews all the time And so I think I understand your argument when it comes to you know

Those who Christ died for is the same as that group as those who he currently intercedes for and I understand the argument it's but from no from what

I was From where I stand when I read Hebrews. I from what

I gather from Hebrews specifically the verse that You quote all the time in many of your debates on this topic.

You say the verse that goes on He is able to say to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him

But I think that verse is talking about him interceding for Those who draw near to God through him those who've been gifted the gift of faith

I think that that's who I think that's the group that Christ intercedes for From the book of Hebrews Yeah, okay, so Okay aside from the fact that once again

You take a passing descriptive and make it the central verb of the of the text Which it just simply isn't doing and no one who read it in its original context would have come to that conclusion

But that issue aside you still have to say That Christ's work as high priest because you

I think you said he's not interceding for them So what you're saying is not for those in hell.

No Why not? Because because if he died for them, right he died for them and as long as they exist

He's a high priest. He presents his finished work in their behalf That's what the high priest does

See that's why I'm sorry You you have to you have to break apart hebrews its own presentation

Of the perfection of the work of the high priest The reason that Jesus is able to save to the uttermost in hebrews 7

Is not our drawing near it's because he ever lives to make intercession for them

So jesus is going to live forever There's no reason for him to stop making intercession And so he does and therefore he is able to save completely that's

That's the power of Of the high priest that we have that's what makes the new covenant the beautiful thing that it is um, so That was the first thing that I thought of is okay.

I I hear what you're saying I just don't see how you can exegetically look at hebrews 7 and say well, yeah

That that you know the proser come menus is is the primary thing. That's It's not it's jesus lives forever.

That's the point of hebrews 7. He holds his priesthood permanently And so they knew what the high priest did

They knew that the offering the sacrifice wasn't it there was the presentation in the holy of holies

And that's the whole basis of our salvation that's the whole basis of the certainty of it Is we have one who intercedes before us and that's what he that's what romans 8 is about too

We have that intercessor and that's why we have peace with god It all stands together uh, brother, it really does but hopefully you understood my response and uh, hopefully that's something for everybody to think about and I appreciated jordan because I was able to hear you clearly and I was able to have a good conversation with you.

So I appreciate that. I very much appreciate the conversation as well Thank you very much for taking my call and talking to me and I hope you have a good rest of your day

Okay. Thank you very much jordan. God bless All righty. Well that worked. Um, and the big thing is

My cat didn't come into the room I am so afraid that tomorrow night that's going to happen.

I I And here's my fear if I close the the door to the kitchen there's a pocket door there

Are are you going to hear the caterwalling on the other side of the door once they figure out that i've locked them in the Other part of the house and what they could do to the rest of the house

And if he comes in this guy, he's a sweet cat. He really is But he is as loud as the day is long and Once he decides he wants your attention

He doesn't care what you're doing online, uh, you just you just need to give him attention or he's just gonna

Mess everything up. So that's the that is the big challenge tomorrow night because my wife's out of town She doesn't get back till saturday.

And uh, so we'll see The first world problems, you know, what will we do with the cat?

Uh, there's there's there's the real issue. So Anyways, I think this has uh worked out real well, uh rich, what do you you think there was uh,

Now can we talk very well, yeah, I can I can barely You can barely hear me barely hear you

I mean just barely we weren't getting that beforehand that's weird Yeah, that's strange because you're about now

I have to lean over to the thing like this to hear you I'm working. Well, at least it worked.

Um, but it worked. Well, okay, I can hear you better now. Okay All right So went well on that end.

It did very much so Okay, good. Well, then this has promise uh, we'll we'll see how it all works, but um

We don't want I I mean it's a lot cooler there than it is here so I'm, i'm sitting here.

Whoo Uh sweating, uh gonna be gonna be changing this shirt and we're done with this one so Yes, it is.

It is very comfortable here. It's it's i'm sure it is. I'm sure it is But tomorrow night, um six o 'clock my time so I think it's six pacific nine eastern uh, the uh dialogue will take place i'm not really sure exactly how long it's supposed to be it looks like it's supposed to be

Like an hour and a half something like that Uh, but I hope you all will find that to be useful and hopefully this is all going to work for us too and um