November 27, 2017 Show with David J. Engelsma on “The Gospel Truth of Justification: Proclaimed, Defended, Developed (Part 3)”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 27th day of November 2017 and I am delighted to have back on the program as promised

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Professor David J. Engelsma for part three of our discussion on his massive 523 page hardcover book

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Gospel Truth of Justification Proclaimed, Defended, Developed.

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Professor J. Engelsma is author, professor of dogmatics and Old Testament studies for 20 years at Protestant Reformed Seminary in Granville, Michigan and emeritus professor since the

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Synod of 2008. He's the editor of this or has been the editor of the

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Standard Bearer Magazine from 1988 to 2002. He's a lecturer and preacher touring in North America and throughout the

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British Isles on behalf of the British Reformed Fellowship which is developed to spread and defend the

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Reformed faith in the United Kingdom and he is as I said today addressing part three of a discussion that we have already begun over two segments, the gospel or should

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I say Gospel Truth of Justification Proclaimed, Defended, Developed and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Professor David J.

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Engelsma. Thank you for having me Chris. And this is a massive work

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I would think that you might consider it a magnum opus of yours or one of the highlights in your collection of writings and I think that it would be wise just because of the fact that there are people listening to part three before they're listening to part one and two for you to give an abbreviated summary of, maybe that's a redundant phrase, an abbreviated summary, but if you could give a brief summary as possible of what the biblical doctrine of justification truly means.

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Let me say something about the book first of all that you referred to I had intended to write a much briefer defense of the

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Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone and I had intended to do that in light of a wholesale attack upon and departure from the historic biblical creedal doctrine of justification by faith alone not only in America today but also throughout the world.

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There is a concentrated effort to corrupt the doctrine of justification by faith alone by attacking it at the point of the word alone and to intrude into the

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Protestant conception of justification that in fact God's work of justification is by faith and by the good works of the sinner which is exactly the error against which the

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Reformation, the 500th anniversary of which we are celebrating this year, was directed and which the

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Protestant Reformation condemned as the false gospel of the book of Galatians, the error that the apostle was exposing in the book of Galatians.

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But as I took up my pen and word processor to write this work it came to me that there was good reason to write a complete explanation of the doctrine of justification.

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I was not aware of any such thorough explanation of the truth of justification including its relation to other fundamental doctrines of the gospel and so I took it upon myself to produce the work that you have just referred to.

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Running through the work is a refutation of the errors that are plaguing Protestantism today but it is in the main a positive explanation of the truth of justification with ample biblical explanation as the ground and source of the

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Protestant doctrine of justification. That leads me to answer your question specifically.

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The truth of justification is a truth that is at the very heart of the gospel of grace that underscores the importance of the truth for which we are contending and concerning which we are conversing on this program.

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Justification is the act of God in Jesus Christ of declaring the guilty sinner righteous before him.

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That righteousness includes both the forgiveness of his sins and the imputation to him of the perfect righteousness and obedience of Jesus Christ.

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It is a declaration by God as judge concerning and to the sinner who stands in the bar before him as guilty for Adam's sin for his corrupt nature and for all his own actual misdeeds and disobedience to the law of God.

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God declares the sinner to be righteous by imputing and that's a key word in regard to the truth of justification a word that appears in the

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King James Version of the Bible as reckons or accounts. God imputes to the sinner the obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ in his own consciousness so that the sinner in his own consciousness is unburdened of the great and heavy burden of the guilt of his sin and receives to his account the obedience of Jesus Christ.

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This act of God of declaring the sinner to be righteous by imputing to him the obedience of Jesus Christ takes place by means of the sinner's faith in Jesus Christ.

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Faith is the instrument or means by which the sinner hears from God the declaration of righteousness and receives from God by imputation the righteousness of Christ.

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This act of God which is the fundamental act of the salvation of the sinner is by means of faith alone.

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This implies that this act of God does not take into account the sinner's own works and is not based upon the sinner's own works and does not take place by means of the sinner's own works of obedience to the law of God.

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The sinner's own works are excluded entirely from this act of God in justifying him and therefore this act of God of justification fundamental to salvation is a gracious act of God.

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It is not due to or based upon or earned by the sinner in any way whatsoever.

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Jesus Christ is the righteousness of the guilty sinner and Jesus Christ becomes the sinner's own through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

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Probably that's not as brief as you asked for or I anticipated but it's difficult to get into the doctrine of justification without enlarging upon it in all its aspects.

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Right, I completely understand and it's better to go a little bit longer than you need to than to be inadequately short and because this is a vital doctrine.

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This is justification by faith alone is a doctrine on which true saving faith stands or falls and there are evangelical ministries and parachurch organizations that have approached this issue as if it's a minor detail.

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I know throughout my life as a Christian since the 1980s having been saved out from Roman Catholicism that there have been organizations that once had an orthodox or should

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I say biblically sound because I don't want anybody to think we're talking about eastern orthodoxy when I use the term orthodox or when you use the term but biblically sound theology organizations that seemed at least on the surface like they were echoing the gospel of the reformation which we would believe obviously is the gospel of the bible but then they in order to be more appealing to a wider audience changed their statement of faith and I've noticed this had occurred with a very major parachurch organizations that were going under the guise of being evangelical where they removed the words alone.

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Now if a church organization or individual says that they are saved by grace through faith by Christ according to the bible to the glory of God that would be true in part but not enough truth are in those statements because there never would have been a reformation nor need for one if the

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Roman Catholic Church had or should

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I say if the Roman Catholic Church was correct in believing in simply that explanation because the

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Roman Catholic Church does believe that we are saved by grace through faith because of Christ according to the scriptures but the removal of alone creates a chasm of difference doesn't it?

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One may say with truth that the fundamental issue of the great and glorious protestant reformation centered around the word alone or the word only as you indicated the reformation insisted that salvation is by faith alone through grace alone by Christ alone to the glory of God alone alone the

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Roman Catholic Church at the time of the reformation and still to this very day will confess and quite strongly when protestantism criticizes the gospel of the

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Roman Catholic Church that we are saved by grace through faith by Christ and to the glory of God but they deny that we are saved through faith by grace through Christ and to the glory of God alone.

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Added to each of those key elements is the phrase and by the good works of the sinner we're not justified by faith alone according to Rome but by faith and by the good works of the sinner and its salvation is not by grace alone but it's also by meritorious good works that the sinner performs and must perform and the inescapable implication is that the savior is

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Jesus in part and they will say mainly by Jesus by Jesus Christ but also by the sinner himself and that would include

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Mary to whom they ascribe a saving work also and the effect of all of that is that the salvation of the sinner is to the glory of God but also to the glory of the sinner himself who earned his salvation in part by his own good works.

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So the whole issue of the reformation hinged on the word only and when today as you suggested protestant organizations especially under the umbrella of some kind of ecumenicity with the

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Roman Catholic Church when protestant organizations may make a very loud confession of teaching the gospel of justification by faith but deliberately leave off the word only it is a telltale sign and a certain telltale sign that that organization has compromised the gospel of grace and then as much as the only gospel the bible knows of is the gospel of grace they have compromised the gospel itself.

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Today especially after all these years of the history of protestantism and especially when we celebrate the 500th anniversary of the protestant reformation the omission of the word only is an indication of a fatal compromise of the gospel of God's grace in Jesus Christ.

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And before we go into one of the attacks that has taken place over the last several decades before we go into one of the attacks against the gospel of justification by grace alone through faith alone which namely would be the

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ECT or Evangelicals and Catholics Together document I did want to return to a question that one of our listeners sent in last time you were on because it was the way it was written you could not answer it because it wasn't sufficiently stated he didn't he didn't give enough information to the question and the specific question he was asking about was

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Mark Jones's view of justification but he has he has written a very lengthy email that I don't have time to read and I will forward that to you so that you can correspond with this individual his name is

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Aaron from Grand Rapids Michigan you can you can correspond with him in more detail about this but he has summarized his question in a much briefer way of phrasing it at the end he says perhaps a better question to ask a professor

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Engelsma would be can the doctrine of a conditional covenant and justification by faith alone be harmonized or does a belief in a conditional covenant exclude the possibility of justification by faith alone thank you for interviewing professor

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David Engelsma Chris once again I request that you only use my first name which

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I did yes perhaps obviously now we would need a definition of a conditional covenant and I believe that was something that came up during our discussion of the federal vision the last time where a belief is stated not only by federal visionists but by some others who are pato baptists and I recognize that you professor

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Engelsma are a pato baptist but do not believe in a conditional covenant in a new in a new testament sense or a new covenant sense where someone can truly be an actual member of Christ's covenant but then be removed from it from what

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I understand the last time you would agree with reform baptists on that issue that if you are truly in the covenant you will be in heaven because Christ is mediating between the father and yourself if you are indeed truly a part of that covenant to your description just given

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I say yes with regard to the question to which we come back the question is pointed and pertinent to our concern over justification by faith alone and it's pertinent in view of the fact that the movement that has called itself the federal vision and I remind everyone myself included that federal means covenant so this is a certain vision of the covenant a certain theology of the covenant the movement that calls itself the federal vision denies justification by faith alone and is pushing quite effectively also within presbyterian and reformed churches with a name for orthodoxy the teaching that justification at least in the final judgment but also today when the gospel is preached is by faith and by the good works that faith performs now that that view denying justification by faith alone which has got the attention of many today and rightly so grounds itself in a certain doctrine of the covenant that's why this denial of justification by faith alone is called the federal vision the covenant vision it arises out of a certain doctrine of the covenant and the doctrine of the covenant out of which this denial of justification by faith alone rises is the doctrine that God makes his covenant and in a living sense with every baptized child of believing parents now they emphasize the children of believing parents because this is a characteristic of the reformed churches in which these theologians move but what they teach would apply also to every one who is baptized even though he would be baptized as an adult and i need not remind us that there are some adults who are baptized to prove to be hypocrites and who eventually grow go lost amen that's right so the teaching of this movement is that every baptized person is privileged by God with the establishment with him of the covenant of grace not in some formal sense merely in that they're in the sphere of the covenant but in the sense that God actually establishes his covenant with this person and incorporates him into Jesus Christ and begins to bestow upon this baptized person every baptized child of believing parents especially the the blessings of salvation of Jesus Christ including justification paid careful attention to that God bestows the gift of justification upon every baptized child at least in its beginning stages but from there on salvation and the covenant is conditional it depends upon the child's continuing to believe and the child's performing the good works that should emanate from faith so the covenant is conditional and salvation likewise is conditional and justification which is part of salvation is also conditional justification then you see the result of this theology justification is not only by faith alone but it's also by faith and the good works that the baptized person performs and if that child when he grows up turns his back on God and is an unbeliever and doesn't perform good works the child loses his relationship to God loses the salvation that God began to work in him and perishes everlastingly so this doctrine of the federal vision is fundamentally conditional and that jeopardizes justification by faith alone salvation by grace alone and the perseverance of the saints all of it all of the heresy of the denial of justification by faith alone and the denial of salvation by grace alone arises out of the teaching of a conditional covenant if the covenant is conditional it depends upon the works of the sinner and that jeopardizes and loses justification by faith alone now how would this be different from arminianism and even worse pelagianism because they the adherence to federal vision all claim unanimously to my knowledge to be reformed they they do not say that they have become arminian and of course many would deny that uh they deny justification by faith alone or at least i shouldn't say many because i don't know many but the one every person that i have spoken with who adheres or professes to adhere to federal vision with the exception of one said that they do believe in justification by faith alone so therefore a full -blown pelagianism may or may not be applicable to them that depends on whether they're being accurate and honest about that claim that they don't deny justification by faith alone but if you could explain from what you understand about federal vision and then we'll move on to our our main topic which is the evangelicals and catholics together uh what is the difference between the federal vision and arminianism and pelagianism federal vision theology is arminianism especially introduced into the sphere of the covenant having to do with mainly the baptized children of believing parents i repeat it is arminianism now in the sphere of the covenant and it is arminianism because it makes faith a condition that the child must perform in order to retain the salvation that god has begun in him in order to obtain the final salvation that god is going to give to certain persons in the great day of jesus christ my understanding of the federal vision as sheer arminianism in the sphere of the covenant is not a doubtful implication that i have drawn but it is my repeating of what the theologians of the federal vision have themselves stated boldly and bluntly in their own writings i have read i think every book that the federal vision theologians have written and they do not imply the evils that i have charged them with they have stated them in so many words and my book on justification as well as a couple of other books that i have written concerning the federal vision including a volume entitled federal vision heresy at the root quotes them in context stating the beliefs that i have just described and attributed to them so it's not a matter of doubtful implication it's a matter of bold bold frank declaration of justification by faith alone of the beginning of the saving work of christ in some children which later can be lost and in the case of norman shepherd who comes to my mind uh right now i'm sure others have said the same thing norman shepherd has written for example written in so many words that in on the basis of john 3 verse 16 god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and so on we may say to every human being whom we meet god loves you with a saving love in jesus christ and christ died for you now that's not an implication of the false doctrine of universal atonement that's a bald frank statement of universal atonement and of course when you say universal atonement you're not speaking of universalism that would say hell will be empty of any inhabitants you mean that the death of christ was intended for the redemption of every single human being that has ever lived or ever will live that's correct and so it's the armenian doctrine of the atonement of christ he died with the purpose of god and of himself of saving every human being but he doesn't accomplish that and why doesn't he accomplish that what's the inefficacy of the cross of christ why if god loves everyone and christ died for everyone is not everyone saved it's because the cross was impotent in itself dependent for its efficacy upon the sinner's decision or act or whatever they may call it that brings the atonement into its efficacy in his own case if that is armenianism that's the armenianism exposed and condemned by the canons of dort reformed creed in the second head of doctrine yes it is charles spurgeon i think very appropriately appropriately put it that the armenians truly have a limited atonement because it is more than just limited in its scope as calvinists believe it is limited in its power it does not save everyone for whom it is intended to say that's correct and with regard to the charge now that uh the federal visionists might back away from when the heat gets too hot for them in the kitchen in the book on justification which is the springboard for our conversation i quote them at large and in context so that no one should have can have or ought to have the slightest doubt that the gospel of grace as recovered at the reformation and as defended by countless of god's servants down through the ages until now is in the most conservative presbyterian reformed and evangel evangelical churches under the sorest attack that it has been under since the time of reformation itself of that i am convinced and of that i am convinced also everyone must be certain who takes the trouble to examine the teachings themselves of the federal vision men these are serious times and every christian and especially every christian who has a heart for the gospel of salvation by grace alone and all its implications has to be alarmed and concerned and for the arminian listening who says now wait a minute why are you calling them in the federal vision arminians when we do believe in justification by faith alone as far as i know john wesley for instance believed in justification by faith alone although we who are reformed do not think arminians are logically consistent uh in their theology in fact i would believe that if you are consistent in your theology as an arminian you would be a an adherence to open theism where god doesn't even know the future or doesn't know the future of all things uh and even the uh open theists themselves very often call themselves uh consistent arminians but just for the sake of a word about that yeah sure go ahead about the armenian doctrine of justification yes the armenian the classic authoritative armenian doctrine of justification is that the act itself of the sinner of believing in christ is his righteousness with god and with that the good works that he performs out of the faith that he has for the armenian justification by faith doesn't mean that faith is the instrument by which we lay hold of christ but the act of believing itself is the righteousness of the sinner i have a quotation in the early part of the book on justification of arminius talking boldly to his cohort lighten bogart in fact could you could you read the quote of arminius when we return from our break because we were already past our i'd love to okay great we will have you do that as soon as we come back if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com chris arnzen at gmail .com

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please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter over which you are asking and aaron in grand rapids michigan we still i don't believe ever received your full mailing address because not only have you won a copy of gospel truth of justification proclaimed defended developed by professor david j engelsma but you've also won a free new american standard bible since you are a first -time questioner so uh we look forward to getting that from you as soon as you can send it to us but we'll be right back uh god willing right after these uh messages from our sponsors so please do not go away charles headins purge once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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that's batterydepot .com hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

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eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com

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we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor welcome back this is chris sorensen if you just tuned us in our guest today is david engelsma and he is an author professor of dogmatics and old testament studies for 20 years at protestant reform seminary in granville michigan an emeritus professor since the synod of 2008 editor of the standard bed standard bearer magazine from 1988 to 2002 a lecturer and preacher touring in north america and throughout the british isles on behalf of the british reformed fellowship which is devoted to the spread and defense of the reformed faith in the united kingdom and he's addressing part three of a discussion on his book gospel truth of justification proclaim defended develop this is a massive 523 page hard cover that has been published by reformed free publishing association and uh this is a must -have for anyone's library in my opinion whether you are reformed or not so you can refer to at least documentation on what the reformed faith actually teaches and believes rather than going on speculation or coming up with slanderous theories against the reformed faith an excellent volume and a must -have for all who profess to love christ and his word our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the usa and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter for instance if you disagree with your own pastor on this issue perhaps you are a roman catholic or a member of the eastern orthodox church and you just don't want to identify yourself when you ask a question we can understand that and so if you wish to remain anonymous for a personal and private matter that's fine but please otherwise give us your first name city and state and country of residence before the break uh professor engelsman you were going to quote jacob arminius and it reminded me that many if not most evangelicals today who would have a more modern day version of arminianism and evangelical arminianism are not quite as heretical or have not quite departed as far from the truth as jacob arminius did and i don't know if you agree with that distinction but i think that uh that perhaps arminius was much more clear in his heresy regarding the involvement of men's works than the modern day a typical modern day evangelical arminian would be i'm not passing judgment upon various groups of evangelical christians i am concerned with establishing sound doctrine the sound doctrine of the gospel and in that connection i remarked just before the break that arminianism that is faithful to the man whose name it bears does not teach justification by faith alone even though they may say those words arminius the father of arminian theology and arminian churches arminius himself taught that the act of faith the act of believing is the righteousness of the sinner he denied that faith is the instrument that takes hold of jesus christ so that jesus christ is the righteousness of the sinner which is the orthodox biblical doctrine and explain justification by faith alone as meaning that the act of believing is the sinner's righteousness now i'm going to quote james arminius and i'm quoting from the works of james arminius volume 2 pages 49 through 51 a work that's published by baker in grand rapids i'm quoting arminius himself quote faith not as it is an instrument but as it is an act is imputed for righteousness end of quote that's clear that's clear to everybody faith is not the instrument or means of righteousness but faith is itself as an act the sinner's righteousness and then this this is something he wrote to his colleague eiten bogart i quote this is arminius talking now if i understand it at all i think this is the meaning of the phrase god accounts faith for righteousness and thus justification is ascribed to faith not because it accepts but because it is accepted not the object which he the believer apprehends by faith but his believing is said to be imputed to him for righteousness end of quote that is as much now i'm speaking not arminius that is as much a denial of the gospel truth of justification by faith alone as is the roman catholic doctrine of justification by the works of the sinner and if i may because i have a heart for those who are misled i plead with everyone who may be uh subject to this understanding of the biblical doctrine of justification to take heed to this the only difference between arminius and rome is that rome makes the good works of the sinner his righteousness with god at least in part and arminius made the sinner's act of believing the sinner's righteousness with god but in both cases it's the act of the sinner the work of the sinner that constitutes his righteousness with god and just consider how serious an error that is if god is a holy god and a righteous god who demands perfect obedience to his law how can my act of believing itself be my righteousness with him my act of believing is not my perfect obedience to the law my act of believing is not my suffering of the just punishment of my disobedience to the law it's it's an act of mine of believing but it's not payment for sin and it's not obedience to the law of god jesus the one who died for sinners and jesus the one who perfectly obeyed the law of god in the place of sinners is the only righteousness that will meet the requirement of god that will satisfy with god faith in is an instrument by which christ becomes our righteousness it's not the act of believing itself that god accepts as righteousness well uh we do have uh a listener uh in hawaii i am so delighted to hear from hawaii because hawaii was the only state that i had not heard from uh in all the years of broadcasting radio going back to 2005 until very recently about i don't know how many months ago it was we started hearing for the first time from hawaii and now we hear another person from hawaii gary in south point hawaii says how would i explain the errors in john piper's final salvation which must contain good works performed after justification by faith alone at the beginning of a believer's profession of faith now that would assume that you knew what john piper has written on this and whether or not gary has accurately interpreted what john piper wrote on that so i'm i've heard bits and pieces of this but i don't even really know the full -blown context so perhaps you do professor engelsman i'm going to apologize to gary i have not read this book by john piper and i'm not therefore acquainted thoroughly with what piper may be teaching in the book and i'm always hesitant to strike out in unknown territory of which i am ignorant but i i may say this i think in the light of the question the question indicates something or may indicate something and so i'm going to talk generally about a popular error and i'm not going to accuse piper of it but gary ought to examine piper's teaching in the light of what i'm going to say there is a popular teaching in conservative circles today popular of late that although we are justified by faith alone without any works of our of our own in time and history in the final judgment where there will also be an act of justification our good works enter into the matter of our justification by god and regardless of piper's teaching that is the teaching of the federal vision and of other groups that are corrupting the truth of justification the truth of the matter is that also in the final judgment which is the decisive judgment and about which every living human being ought to be concerned more than he's concerned about his physical health or his job or his family or anything else in the final judgment when god pronounces the verdict upon the believing sinner that justifying verdict of god will be by faith alone and on the basis of christ alone and it will be a verdict that is not based upon and that is not due to and that does not consist of any work that the sinner himself has performed in his lifetime if you could explain what makes your understanding they're different from jesus separating the sheep from the goats what makes my explanation different because when you see jesus you know setting apart the sheep from the goats he's explaining all the things that the goats did not do and he's explaining all the things that the sheep did do the sheep didn't even know that they did them and he basically was saying that when you have done it to the least of these my brethren you've done it unto me and uh so how would that be different are not being judged or should i say i guess there's a big difference that i should say there is a big difference between being saved and being judged according to our works but if you could uh explain the difference that calls to mind the fact that those who teach a justification in the final judgment by faith and by works appeal to that passage and all of the other many passages in the new testament that teach that in the final judgment we shall be judged according to our works and the preposition there is of great importance we will not be judged on the basis of our works but according to our works our good works will come up in the final judgment the same way they come up now and that is demonstrating that we have a true faith in jesus christ but they do not come up as part of the righteousness with which we are justified either now or in the final judgment the new testament does not say that we are going to be justified or judged in the final judgment on the basis of our works god will bring up the good works we will not bring them up in the judgment and say god because i did this or that i ought to be declared righteous and worthy of eternal life but god will bring them up to demonstrate that our faith by which we were justified alone is a true and genuine faith and as far as the ungodly are concerned they will certainly be judged on the basis of their evil works it's significant that in the passage you refer to and i don't have that passage in front of me but i i recall the teaching that's matthew 25 at the end he separates the sheep from the goats already before he talks about the good works that the sheep performed and brings up their good works as demonstration of their faith in him and also brings up their good works even though those good works were not perfect they were all defiled by sin as the bible teaches elsewhere and that all by itself disqualifies even the best of our good works to constitute our righteousness with god in the final judgment people who bring in good works and are insistent on bringing in good works as in part the basis of our justification either now or in the final judgment don't know themselves as sinners and don't know god in his justice his awesome justice only perfection will satisfy god when it comes to the righteousness that deserves eternal life that's the work of jesus christ in its fullness so our good works god will bring up and he will reward them and that demonstrates how gracious he is because we did those good works only by his grace in us we defiled them when we did them we didn't love him in any of them with the perfection that he requires and still he graciously rewards us for them the place good works will have in that great assizes simply impresses upon me what a gracious god he is even to bring them up to reward them graciously and here it comes to mind that the heidelberg catechism addresses that issue of good works in the final judgment and i think that's worth quoting it's a very brief question and answer at the end of its treatment of justification in lord's day 24 after it has denied that our good works can be the whole or part of our righteousness before god the catechism asks do not our good works merit which yet god will reward in this and in a future life and the answer is this reward is not of merit but of grace rome appealed to all the passages that teach that god rewards our good works in the final judgment as proof of their contention that our good works merit with him today the federal vision and others are appealing to those same passages in proof that our justification in the final judgment will be partly by our own good works which really is an implication that they earn eternal life and the answer to all those terrorists is the reward of our good works will be a reward of grace not of our earning so what you're saying if you boiled it down to is that there is an enormous difference between being judged by our works and according to our works yes according to has the idea of demonstrating our good works demonstrate the reality of our faith that by the way is what james 2 is all about as well in the language of james 2 our good works show the reality of our faith and of our justification but they are not the basis it's not on account of our good works that we are justified and we have to go to our midway break right now uh if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com and uh that is also the email address to send in questions for professor david j engelsma for our discussion that we are continuing this is part three of a discussion that we began several months ago gospel truth of justification proclaimed defended developed and today we are eventually hopefully going to get around to address the issue of the evangelicals and catholics together document which was one of the modern day assaults on the doctrine of justification by faith alone but before we get to that we do have uh another first time listener and i'm looking for that first time listener right now and uh while i'm looking for that listener that listeners question i should say send in your email with a question to chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com and please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa uh before we go to any listener question by the way professor angles i wanted to make sure that you completed any thought that you began right before the break i don't recall anything left unsaid that i intended had intended to say okay great well uh let's see here i am still looking for this uh well i'm going to move on because i can't find it and i'm sure i'll eventually find it but i will move on to our topic the main topic that we had under the umbrella of gospel truth of justification it's actually a chapter in your book that deals with the evangelicals and catholics together uh controversy that developed i believe it was in the 1980s or was it the early 19 the 1980s or the early 1990s i can't remember uh when exactly that came about they publish their document evangelicals and catholics together in the early 1990s and tell our listeners exactly what that was because i remember chuck colson who uh prior to that was writing things that a lot of theologically reformed and biblically sound people were applauding they seemed to think that chuck was right on the money and was accurate and much of what he said theologically and then he drafted this document much to the dismay of people who would be on the correct side of protestant reformation meaning the reformers but uh tell us about this and how it was developed in the early 1990s appeared the statement evangelicals and catholics together the christian mission in the third millennium and that featured a combination of two evangelicals j .i

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packer and charles colson whom you mentioned and a couple of roman catholic heavyweights including cardinal avery dulles and the convert to rome from the lutheran church richard john newhouse and that statement was intended to uh show and accomplish an ecumenical cooperation of these roman catholic worthies and the evangelical dignitaries and this organization was intended to uh do several things one of them was to engage in a war against the present depraving of western culture fighting the culture war especially with regard to the western uh adoption of homosexual unions and other depravities and uh this cooperation or ecumenical organization was intended to cooperate in evangelism which is a striking thing that rome and evangelicals could cooperate in evangelism and also a purpose of that organization was the uniting of the church so it aimed at the eventual union of the roman catholic church with at least the evangelical churches that these people the evangelicals in this organization belong to so it was an evangelical it was an ecumenical organization with this threefold purpose and in order to do that in order to cooperate in these things this ecumenical organization that called itself evangelicals and catholics together recognized that they had to have uh something in common they had to have a solid basis a solid theological and gospel basis and they expressed that in among other ways by saying that they were agreed that jesus christ is savior and lord that was the first of their agreements according to their own testimony and the second the thing that united them let me say something about that first affirmation that they agreed that jesus is savior and lord that did not reckon with the fact or attempted to hide the fact that rome uh teaches a lordship of the pope that compromises the lordship of jesus christ and with regard to jesus as the savior it ignored the fact that rome teaches that mary is a savior too of sorts so that's a dubious statement but the second one made everything plain the second statement of their agreement that made their ecumenical venture possible was this i quote we affirm together that we are justified by grace through faith because of christ end quote that was the second agreement of the evangelicals and the roman catholics uh the second uh affirmation of their oneness we affirm together that we are justified by grace through faith because of christ and couldn't a mormon even sign that what's that a mormon could even sign that one i agree but what is obvious and strikes every protestant immediately is the absence of the word only that we had talked about and the importance of which we discussed earlier on this program it does not say we are justified by grace alone through faith alone because of christ alone so that is a total concession by these evangelicals to the catholic doctrine of salvation and because those evangelical theologians were men of such stature as j .i

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packer and charles colson they knew what they were doing they did that deliberately left off the word only and in fact later when this came under some criticism they attempted to justify a leaving off the word only and the roman catholics were their typical deceptive selves avery dulles argued in favor of that because he said rome has never taught salvation by works apart from grace and faith nobody ever thought or charged that rome ever taught such a thing the charge of protestantism against rome is that it teaches salvation by grace plus works and justification by faith and works but j .i

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packer's defense of leaving off the word only was the most disheartening to me who had had respect for him by virtue of his earlier writings packer argued in defense of omitting the word only in this statement of salvation by saying that people are not saved by doctrinal statements were saved by jesus alone and that was a discouraging statement by packer because not only does that statement ignore the significance of justification by faith alone but it's indicative of complete doctrinal indifference it's also indicates uh it militates against a theology that he has been writing about for decades very beautifully and very accurately and very faithful to the scriptures it's just mind -boggling that he would uh that he would betray not only of course more importantly the bible in his endorsement of this but even betray his own writings i agree wholeheartedly with that i was i used the word discouraging deliberately i would not have expected such a defense of this uh bad doctrine by j .i

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packer let me let me quote when he was defending leaving off the word only with regard to faith grace and jesus christ his defense was this i quote him evangelism seeks to lead people into salvation and what brings them salvation is not any theory about faith and justification but trusting jesus himself as lord master and divine savior end of quote now i propose that that defense of that statement of agreement with rome is uh indicative of complete doctrinal indifference it doesn't matter what doctrine you confess all that matters is trusting jesus and what it ignores that believers trust jesus according to doctrinal precision in the gospel what if at the time of the conflict over the deity of jesus athanasius had said let's give in to arias and deny that jesus is god and man because what matters for salvation is not what doctrinal assertion we make about jesus but only that we trust in him the fact of the matter is that if jesus is not god there's no value in trusting in him and men and women will not trust in him and similarly with regard to packer's statement about leaving off the word only if we do not know jesus as the only savior we're not going to trust in him and trust in him alone for salvation which is the only way of salvation amen in fact uh i seriously doubt the apostle paul under divine inspiration of the holy spirit ever would have penned what he wrote especially in the letter to the church of galatia uh the harsh language that he used against the judaizers probably never would have been written if such a matter as merely adding circumcision to an otherwise orthodox faith was not very serious that's an apt reference what did he write in galatians if you be circumcised along with trusting in christ christ shall profit you nothing that's how serious the matter is it's either trusting in christ alone or losing them all together and my my little comment about mormonism or mormons being able to sign a document like that of course i meant before anybody gets in an uproar uh i meant that according to that language because obviously mormons use a different dictionary than protestants or even catholics use when it comes to words like faith and grace and and even christ um they uh very often will try to mimic our language but they have an entirely different dictionary and so that's uh what i meant by that statement uh i found our listener our our second uh first time listener of the day scott in colorado springs colorado he says i am a regular reader of professor engelsma's books and own his book on justification but not have not read it yet in light of the understanding that the covenant of grace between god and man is unconditional how do we understand the biblical passages that speak of covenantal stipulations with obligations placed on man and blessings based on or conditioned on obedience in my thinking about how to better understand this apparent difficulty i have wondered if we might think of the covenant of grace as having visible and invisible aspects corresponding to the distinction between the visible and invisible church in this language the covenant is unconditional in its invisible aspect that is in how it defines the invisible church of the elect and is conditional in its visible aspect which is how it defines the visible church does this sound valid this way of thinking about the covenant seems to eliminate some confusion and eliminates the need for phrases like sphere of the covenant i guess what he's like referring to is what i had mentioned i believe in our last discussion uh we as reformed baptists if somebody makes a believable profession of faith and repentance we baptize them they are admitted to membership of our church and they might even excel to not only the diaconate but might become an elder might even become a pastor but then if they if they later prove to be a false convert and they are unrepentant they will be excommunicated we may have given them comfort before that that they were members of christ's covenant but we realized later according to their own actions and apostasy that they were never really truly a part of that covenant but i'm assuming that's what he means but maybe you can interpret it more accurately there's a whole host of questions and issues involved in his question and i don't want to get lost so that i fail to answer his first and basic question remind me of that if i don't come back to that his first and basic question was if the covenant is unconditional how do we view the the admonitions of scripture to covenant children and others that they walk in obedience to the law of god and perform good works but with regard to the question he raises in connection with his basic question about the sphere of the covenant i refer to romans chapter 9 which is all about the covenant of god with believers and their children you will remember that jacob and esau are mentioned specifically in that chapter there is a distinction that paul makes not that i make but that paul makes between being israel and merely being of israel they are not all israel that's the number of those who are in covenant communion with god in christ and share in justification and all the blessings of salvation there are persons baptized persons even who are israel god's israel the same people of god and there are others who are not israel but they are of israel now that is a distinction that i believe can accurately and correctly be described as a distinction between being in the covenant and being in the sphere of the covenant jacob was in the covenant with god by divine election as paul goes on to say in romans 9 esau was not similar to some pagan mole bite he was of israel he was in the sphere of israel he was circumcised with the sign of the covenant he was raised by his parents in the truth of the word of god and enjoyed outwardly anyway many of the privileges that belong to the covenant but he never shared in them and he was never the object of god's covenant love he was never the object of god's promise the promise was to abraham isaac and jacob so that with regard to the question or comment that the man in colorado springs raised about sphere of the covenant and then he also raised this matter that i think i talked about before but which bears uh repeating in according to galatians the promise to the seed of abraham was a promise to jesus christ personally and individually christ is the seed of abraham to whom the promise of the covenant was made so primarily and fundamentally when god said to abraham i will be the god of you and of your children after you god had in mind jesus christ he was the seed of abraham that's to whom the promise of the covenant of grace was made and then as verse 29 of the chapter that i'm referring to i recall uh teaches the promise is extended to all those who belong to christ by a true and living faith so that the promise of the covenant the promise that god would be the covenant saving god of abraham and his children was directed by god to christ and to those who are in christ or who belong to christ and that's according to god's election so that's the settling of the great issue whether god's covenant promise is to all the physical children of believers or to all baptized persons just because they've had the sign of baptism or whether election controls the covenant and the covenant promise and i maintain as do the protestant reformed churches that the covenant of god is made with abraham with christ and with the elect children of god who are in jesus christ others come into the sphere of the covenant and share the signs of the covenant circumcision then and baptism today but they are not in the covenant they are not the objects of the covenant promise of god and they never share in the saving benefits of the covenant now that original question what was that again that i said i wanted to come back to have lost my train of thought what was it what were the opening words of the man from colorado springs remind me of that if you can he says in light of the understanding that the covenant of grace between god and man is unconditional how do we understand the biblical passages that speak of covenantal stipulations with obligations placed on man and blessings conditioned on obedience yes the obligations that the gospel brings to believers and their children are not conditions that is acts that believers and their children perform upon which the covenant grace of god depends but they are obligations that believers and their elect children are called to perform because they are in the covenant as a life of holiness and gratitude to god for his gracious salvation and in fact those obligations in the covenant are realized by god himself who works in his covenant people to work and to do after his good pleasure to quote roughly philippians chapter 2 there's a difference between a condition and an obligation god's salvation of me as a believer does not depend upon any work that i've performed or perform now or shall perform in the future god's saving covenant of grace is a covenant of grace it depends solely upon his grace and upon the meritorious work of jesus christ on my behalf that does not however rule out obligations to me i have a calling in the covenant that calling is important here i may emphasize that my denial that justification and salvation depend upon my good works is in no way a minimizing of the worth and importance of a life of good works i may say in fact that my life of holiness and performance of good works is a purpose of god with his justifying of me and his saving of me he justifies and saves me in order that i may be to his praise by a life of good works in the world thus i glorify him but what i deny is that my good works are a condition that is an act of mine upon which the saving work of god depends and that's what a condition is a condition is not a mere obligation a condition is an act upon which something else depends and without which that something else cannot be realized i deny that the covenant is unconditional but i recognize that the covenant carries the salvation of god carries with it obligations that i have now would you say that the differences that we are talking about in regard to obedience involve the difference between god being a judge sentencing someone to a eternal damnation and a parent god as a parent chastising his true child that's a valuable distinction for the ungodly their punishment is because of their unbelief and all their disobedience god's dealings with us when we stray and disobey as with david for example in the case of pat sheba and uriah was chastisement that is the infliction of hurts and pains upon david to bring home to him the seriousness of his sin and also to convince the rest of the nation of israel that even a king of israel does not get away with such egregious offenses but it wasn't punishment of david punishment of david would have been damnation god chastises his people for their sins christ bore the punishment for god's people in their place for their sins yeah just as a a child uh who refuses to mow the lawn after his father insists that he mows the lawn the the the true parent will chastise his child may say that he can't have dessert may say that he can't go to the basketball game or whatever the case may be but a true loving parent is not going to say you are no longer my child because you have not mowed the lawn no and besides that in the case of god not only does he justify us for our salvation he also sanctifies us for our salvation that is he forgives our sins and he also makes us holy so that we're able to do good works and we do perform good works amen that's his salvation it's not as though he forgives our sins takes us into some kind of saving relationship with himself and then says now it's up to you and your own power to fulfill these conditions whether you're going to go to heaven or not he does the whole work of salvation and i want to add to that astute questioner in colorado springs this salvation according to the christian gospel is by grace how can it be by grace if in the end that salvation depends upon works that we do which is the same as to say conditions that we perform the idea of conditionality is clean contrary to the gospel truth of grace now obligations are not obligations are harmonious with grace god admonishes us to live in obedience to his law that's the way in which he saves us by sanctifying us and jesus said that if we love him we will keep his commandments just as the child mowing the lawn does it because he loves his parent not to earn childhood not to earn the the fact that he is a child of his parent that's a fine example and we have to go to our final break right now this will be much briefer than the last and this is now your time to send in a question if you haven't already because we're running out of time rapidly we already have several of you waiting in line to have questions asked and answered by professor engelsma so if you want to join them do so now at chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio paul wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man if i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ hi i'm mark lucans pastor of providence baptist church we are a reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 we are in nofolk massachusetts we strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and love if you live near norfolk massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma .org

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hcbible .org call 609 -494 -5689 609 -494 -5689 harvey cedars where christ finds people and changes lives hi i'm buzz taylor frequent co -host with chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio i would like to introduce you to my good friends todd and patty jennings at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley bible book service todd and patty specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone since 1987 the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available christian books and bibles at the best possible prices unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly much of what is being printed is not worth your time that means you can get to the good stuff faster it also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors their website is cvbbs .com

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that's cvbbs .com let todd and patty know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio and once again that phone number that toll -free number number is 800 -656 -0231 800 -656 -0231 and the book that they are giving away is theology of the reformers by dr timothy george while supplies last there is a limited supply of this book which is $29 .99

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or call the toll -free number tomorrow which every way you prefer ordering and by the way i just want to also give a shout out to our friends at the reformed free publishing association for being so generous in providing the books that we have been giving away the free copies of gospel truth of justification this is quite a substantial work by our guest professor david j engelsma and it actually retails for $42 .95

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as i said before this book is over 520 pages it is a beautifully bound hardback so it is quite the gift that uh you are receiving today and uh we have uh let's see john and bangor main uh says that one of the things that i seem to remember about the evangelicals and catholics together document is that it was also a pledge that both sides would not proselytize each other correct me if i'm wrong on that it seems very absurd to me that roman catholics who believe that a truly born again or regenerate person can lose his or her salvation would say that no one should continue evangelizing them that's a good point and i think he's right on that isn't it wasn't that some kind of a agreement that they proselytize each other that was an agreement and i think it specified especially in south america rome must have been alarmed that evangelicals were concentrating on south america so they specified that but the man is right they would not steal each other's sheep so they put it yeah i have i have told uh individuals who make that kind of a claim oh we shouldn't be evangelizing or proselytizing each other uh i have told them look i will even evangelize people that on paper may agree with me theologically but who are demonstrating from their lives that they're that they are not truly born again or there there is at least uh no outward evidence of it uh i mean we should we should not cease to evangelize really anyone i'm not saying that we should assume automatically that people in our own congregation are lost but even people in our own congregation are not off limits when it comes to evangelism let alone somebody from the church of rome it's really a incredible concession by the evangelicals involved in ect it's the it's the concession really that the reformation was unnecessary luther wasn't engaging in theological pastimes and the reformation with all its suffering and labor was not engaged in something that was unnecessary if one could be saved believing roman catholic doctrines and if roman catholics by virtue of their roman catholic beliefs are christ's sheep destined for eternal life what was the point of the reformation and of the recovery of the gospel it's really the admission that the entire reformation was vanity but that's what we've come to and packer and colson and others signed off on that there were by the way more evangelical notables who expressed their agreement with the project of evangelicals and catholics together i won't name them all but some very popular men agreed with that project yeah i'm baffled by it especially because as i said and as you agreed that some of those men are very very sound in most if not all of what they write in regard to their own published works but it seems it's as if they are making a public statement that what they have written previous to that document are things that are not really that important how to explain that we can't know i guess until eternity reveals it and maybe it would help to talk to these men but going by their published statement they were motivated first of all by uh ecumenicity and that's a warning to us there's a false ecumenicity that brings churches together at the expense of the gospel that's a powerful movement today and the second factor that entered into their project was their effort to fight the culture wars they see the west going down in depravity and corruption and they claim that they're going to turn things around culturally so that raises the question is that a calling of the church rome of course has always thought that it is because rome harks back to the days when it governed civilized culture but should protestantism be fighting the culture wars that a duty of the christian church does christ call us to reform the culture now even if someone uh chooses as a as an individual christian or citizen to be involved in fighting the sins culturally that are are permeating society uh that does not mean that they should forfeit or compromise things that are even more eternally significant certainly every christian and particularly every reformed christian is to live wholly in every area of society to which god calls him and for which he is fitted according to the word of god so that the light of the gospel shines in that darkness whether it's entertainment or work or wherever it may be but even he does not have the calling that by that he's going to christianize the culture if god uses his life and work to affect society that's another thing but i don't know anywhere in scripture where the christian is called to christianize society the world about us is totally depraved and the only salvation for the world and its members is the sovereign work of god of regenerating the hearts of the men and women but jesus christ does not work upon depraved godless culture somehow to give it a veneer of christianity although speaking of christians we have christian in cumberland county pennsylvania and christian uh says do you think a part of the problem that was a motivation behind evangelicals signing the evangelicals and together and catholics together document is that they wrongly perceive the roman catholic church as a true church with some flaws rather than a false church with some truths yes we we've even brought this up on this program not long ago that that is the opinion of people like norman geisler and hank hanegraaff who actually not long ago converted to eastern orthodoxy but there is a i think a very seriously dangerous view of rome being a true church that just happens to have some erroneous teachings rather than false church with some true teachings because even even most of the cults if not all of them have some true teachings that doesn't mean that they are true churches it was the stand of the protestant reformation that the roman catholic church had become a false church and it is the confession of the reform faith both in the catechism and in the westminster confession that the roman catholic church is a false church and the pope according to the westminster confession is the man of sin so serious is the condemnation of rome and its papacy and the man that raised the question is correct that underlying evangelicals and catholics together is the contention by the roman catholic participants and the admission by the evangelical participants that rome is a true church of jesus christ otherwise they couldn't have the kind of fellowship with the roman catholic theologians that they have and that is a serious error rome has not changed its doctrine rome has not changed its practices from the time of the protestant reformation it has no intention of doing so and it still carries the marks of a false church as i might add belgic confession article 29 one of my creeds makes plain when it gives the marks of the true church and of the false church rome does not preach the gospel of grace it doesn't administer the sacraments correctly rightly according to scripture and it doesn't exercise christian discipline and those are the of a true church and in fact i know i've repeated this uh in past programs but from what we know of the biblical description in the uh letter to the church of galatia and other places uh the judaizers likely had more in common with the new testament christians or the first century christians than the church of rome has with with the protestants and yet that did not prevent paul from anathematizing them nope and we have uh time for one more uh question uh let's see we have christopher in suffolk county new york and christopher wants to know uh do you believe that roman catholic baptism is acceptable even if you disagree with the roman catholic church and view it as a false church i do regard roman catholic baptism as a valid administration of the sacrament of baptism so that if roman catholics are converted to the reformed faith and join the protestant reformed churches they are not required to be rebaptized we regard the qualifications for a genuine baptism as that the sacrament is administered by an ordained officer or official in the church and especially that it's the administration of water in the name of the triune god in rome rome's administration of the sacrament qualifies so in that respect we would regard i would regard roman catholic baptism as valid now i have presbyterian brothers and sisters with whom i i am in close fellowship in spite of our disagreement there who quite vehemently uh deny that roman catholic baptism is a valid administration of the baptism and they have their reasons for that so i have debated this with them but they have not changed my mind or have they hung me from the nearest tree so yes in fact i've done uh at least one program on this issue because that that has divided presbyterians for quite a long time because of the other things going on in the roman catholic baptism other than just the use of water and uh doing the the right in the name of the trinity but we're actually out of time now and i know that the website for reformed free publishing association is rfpa .org

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rfpa .org uh if anybody has won a book today well actually everybody who's written in a question today uh other than anybody that already won a book uh if anybody has written in a question today and has never won the book before please give me your full mailing address if you haven't done it already and you'll receive a free copy of justification truth i'm sorry gospel truth of justification by our guest professor david j engelsma compliments of our friends at reform free publishing association and that's rfpa .org