Let's Talk Calvinism with Leighton Flowers

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Show Banter and the Guest's Arrival

You you you know you go off the mark off of the scene.

Yeah, I leave I come back and I've got this big beard kind of like you, you know.

Yeah, actually right now we'll bring everyone if at some point. We'll probably bring everyone in this backstage and at least right now everyone who's backstage has a nice beard. Yeah, I'm just gonna say we have Layton flowers.

I'm gonna put a poll out there now so people can get ready to answer. I'm gonna ask who looks to be older Layton flowers or myself when we bring him in with with his Glorious beard. Because he said He's saying I'm looking like Santa Claus and I can see it.

But you know because I've never seen Layton with a beard usually every video I've seen he's clean-shaven.

He's got a really nice beard. Yeah. Yeah, I think he had it when we were out at the Open-air theology conference last year. I can't remember that was on why Calvinism Layton was there. We had a great time of discussion.

Let me just say for the record I had a couple people ask why are you having Layton on? Anyone asking that is clearly not a regular viewer here at apologetics live. We always bring in people we disagree with because we like good discussions and we like to show.

Well, we're here for apologetics. Not only are we gonna have the discussions But we want to also display how to have discussions without losing your mind losing your patience. Okay, maybe last episode was kind of hard with the guy that wanted to argue that Jesus was the Son of God and not God, but He was God, but had the Spirit of God.

Yeah, if any of you did not watch the last episode You try to figure out what that guy was actually saying because after two hours, I'm still trying to figure out what minister Andrew Was talking about it was not clear and he kept saying he was saying so clearly.

Criticism of Transgender Ideology

Alright, so before you bring Layton in is some things not really maybe in the news section, but I Just I post this because I thought this was really funny drew. I don't know if you saw I've been doing more.

Trying to do some more short videos, you know.

I mean, I haven't had a chance to listen to him though. Yeah, they're short. They're short.

So I'm just doing them like when I'm driving trying to do like two to five minute videos. So that's dangerous, right?

Well technically.

My hands are oh wait. No, technically my hands don't have to be on the wheel. The car was driving. I had nothing to do with it. I just have to keep my eyes.

I mean, I just you know, cuz you're getting older right the beard you're getting older. That yeah, well dangerous. I want to make sure everyone around you is protected.

Yeah, so I Was I happen to be in the car when I thought about it and so I you know. But I did one on transgender is in the hypocrisy of transgenderism because the issue is with transgenderism. They they will say when you see a boy playing with dolls and they go.

Oh, that's really a girl. What they're actually doing is proving that they don't believe there's multiple genders because well. If there were multiple genders, then a boy playing with dolls wouldn't be a problem.

But right they take the stereotypical opposite and go. Oh, that's what it that must be. Right. And so I Did a video on that and so someone contacted me saying that she was a news magazine.

Reporter or whatever all that comment. I did see that comment. Yeah, and so she basically was asking me.

By what authority do I have to speak on transgenderism since I'm not a biologist. Was the same as you do. I mean like I don't think she's realized that just because she reports on things. Doesn't make her an expert.

Like she's not a biologist either.

Yeah, the crazy right, yeah, I mean we see all these reporters that think they're experts and everything because they Invent stuff, right? They misrepresent what other people say they invent a narrative and all of a sudden they're an expert on it.

Introducing Leighton Flowers and His Ministry

Yeah, so I see you start a couple things before we bring Leighton in really quickly. Ed. Romine, it looks like, you know Romaine which is a lettuce. So if you call him Romaine, he's gonna say I.

You start this and I'm curious why you start this. So I started because because Ed doesn't typically come into the chat and so he showed up he's here and. Though when he was on the show he was on the show like a while ago.

It was a fantastic show and I think we need to bring him back on.

I think we should but there's a different reason why I wanted to highlight that when I saw you started. The reason Ed said hi and Leighton can attest to this. Because like five or ten minutes before the show started when Ed knows I got a show that starts Thursday nights at 8 o 'clock.

It calls me to say hi. So I said, why don't you join the show and say hi then. So he went into the chat said hi.

I gotcha. I don't have Ed's number. So, you know, yeah, Ed's a great brother. Anyone who doesn't know Ed Romaine. You know, you should get to know him. So not only that. Great preacher great expositor.

I see the videos he posts on Facebook.

Very in a very edifying and and if you're gonna think that for anyone who doesn't know Ed I still think this is the funniest thing was, you know, Ed used to call Matt slicks program and. And he'd call in and at one point Matt finally was like, you know, listen if you're gonna keep calling.

Can you they sound like can you not be drunk when you're doing it? And had it had say I got cerebral palsy.

It's not that I'm drunk. It's.

My speech is slurred for the reason like yeah, Matt felt real bad, which is always fun. I if Ed can make Matt feel bad. I am all for that. That that's hard to do once lost ministry says Andrew Rephort is a great brother.

He's lying right there.

Even amongst disagreements. That's why I started this one. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm glad you're having this discussion. Also, we have the same birthday. So there you go. At least one thing that I did. Well, I was born on the same day as him. So so maybe that. That's why we're getting along.

So, let me bring mr. Flowers in and here's the poll now. Everyone you can decide which one of us looks older between Leighton and I. I think Drew does. He got a little bit more white in his beard than me?

You know, he does. He's also got better lighting too, though. I mean, yeah, because but if you look at the complexion of his skin, I mean, it doesn't quite. Look as wrinkle.

Hey.

Well, if you compare the picture that's on your logo Andrew you definitely would win. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, what were you 30 then?

1992 wait this one here.

That logo is on your logo on the screen earlier before you brought me on. Yes.

The one with here with me in the tux. Oh die. Yeah, that one's only. Yeah that one's only like four or five years ago, so there you go.

Oh, I have a code age me a lot of shaves anybody who shaves which by the way I've had this beard for several years so I'm not sure when you saw me clean-shaven it must been a video from a long time ago, but.

But anybody who's clean-shaven typically especially if they have gray in their beard will look younger. Even my son who doesn't have any gray had a beard. Yeah that that logo right there is when I was talking about.

That that when he shaved his beard he lost at least five years on him pretty quick.

Yeah, so Leighton we uh, you know, you and I have known each other. I don't know how many years now it's been. We've always gotten along. I know that that I mean I. When you came out to the white Calvinist conference I remember taking a picture and and sharing it and saying I'm with my friend Leighton and I had people.

Tell me how you know friend, how dare you call him that he is like.

So you have the river. I get the reverse. Sometimes whenever you know Matt slick or somebody that is a well-known Calvinist that I'll refer to as friend being friends with him I'll get people from my side like well, he's a heretic. Why would you be a friend with?

All those kinds of things. I get more comments. I get more negative comments from people who are from my side on The the fact that I'm too nice to Calvinist. That I do from Calvinist getting on to me now.

I get a lot of hate mail from Calvinist to as you can imagine. But I get even more from people who don't think Calvinist are Christians or shouldn't be considered brothers. And and from people who question my views on eternal security and those kinds of things.

So I actually get more Mail of those who from my side in the sense of those who disagree with me than from the Calvinistic side believe it or not.

So let's give for folks who may not know who you are. Maybe they don't study Calvinism or Minionism other things and along those arguments. How about you introduce folks to yourself. Give a little bit of your background so that folks know that you're not just some guy we picked up off the street to argue over Calvinism with.

Absolutely. Well, I appreciate that opportunity. One I wasn't born Talking about this topic. I started this topic back close to 2015 and it was because I was going through a doctoral program where I was writing on the subject because I was a Calvinist for about a decade and I ended up leaving Calvinism and I ended up writing on the topic because it was a pretty passionate topic for me because our home church had split Over the issue.

I was actually a part of the group that split off As a Calvinist at the time and so it was a very deep issue for me. And so when I began to come out of Calvinism It was a huge impact on me my family and the people around us and so I ended up doing my dissertation on this topic and I was teaching a course and In the course the students really begin to engage with this particular topic and one of them even suggested Hey, you should do a podcast on this and that kind of started.

That's why it's called sociology 101 by the way, it's because that was the name of the section of the course. I wasn't expecting it to be a I wouldn't even a YouTube page at the time. It was just recordings that we were putting on the webinar for the class.

And then we just moved it over into a recording place. And then eventually it we started broadcasting on YouTube after people started suggesting that we do that so it just kind of developed into what it is now for those that don't know and I kept it separate from my ministry pages for evangelism and apologetics and Texas Baptist and all I was doing there because.

Because it's such a hot topic and it's intervarsity among Christians. I didn't want it to overrun or to be interfering with my other ministry, which was much bigger at the time and Now everybody gets the impression.

This is all I talk about and this is all I do. People accuse me all the time. One string banjo matter of fact, they've even got my little one string banjo that you know from James White's accusation. And I've got one or I've kind of just adopted that that label because I understand if that's all you know of me.

But I was a director of evangelism for for 20 years for with Texas Baptist. I recently left that ministry and began full-time at Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary as the professor of theology and I also do this broadcast and working on some other projects on the side as well.

Which hopefully will come to fruition here in the near future.

So are you I? Heard. I don't know if this is true from what you just said. Are you. I heard that you are now just full-time with soteriology 101 or you still know?

Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary is where I'm so you're still there and this is more of a side.

Yes, I think yeah. Okay. Yes someone back in February's told me that I was like really, okay I I didn't know attacking Calvinism could make it a full-time career, but. So so yeah your background and and there is a question that I did get you know, I put in you saw I tagged you.

You know looking for questions. So hopefully you saw them everywhere and got ready for them but but I grabbed some questions and one person did ask about you being an evangelist and you know that but the only thing they know you for is is your criticism on Calvinism and My response was basically if and you may not even remember this many years ago when we started this program and it was Matt slick and I.

You came in you used to come in and every once in a while and there was a guy you and Matt were tag-teaming evangelizing to an atheist that came in and I remember when that show was over you had dropped off and at the at the kind of was I don't know if it was the after show or just when Matt and I were talking and Matt was just like Man, Leighton is such a good job sharing the gospel.

Why doesn't he do that more versus this attacking Calvinism?

I you know, I've asked that I don't have any lost people in my studio. I mean, I you know, I I do have training videos and Articles and things I've written on the subject. But you know 12 people will watch those whereas 1200 people will watch a controversial topic like Calvinism.

I can't help that. And even the provisionist perspective they cover all sorts of topics, but they'll even mark remark. You know. We'll get a 10 of the normal listeners when we talk about this topic or this topic of this topic.

But we talk about Calvinism and the conflict there and we get you know our normal amount of views. And again, I that's not what motivates me to do what I do. That's why I created the page separately because it is such a popular topic and a controversial one among Christians.

I kept it secret as separate so as to keep it from Interfering with what I consider the more important things, but the fact that it's popular I can't help that so the fact that that's the only reason you know me.

I I can't help that. I mean if if you want to listen to my sermons on other topics, they're out there. Caleb has posted them on videos and on you know Our social media pages and they get a fraction of the views as the other stuff does.

But that's just the nature of the beast, I guess.

You know, I have to admit that and I had asked this of Andrew a while ago. And then I said of him the other night. You know, why is it that Calvinism is the only thing I ever hear and that's by the way.

That's how how I learned about you was talking about Calvinism and Andrew. Andrew told me the story about with Matt slick. And he said no. No. No, he said. I've heard him evangelize and I've heard him give the gospel and it's it's great.

But in fact unless somebody knows me from the podcast and invites me to come speak on this particular topic I rarely mentioned Calvinism or anything associated with Calvinism when I'm speaking or when I'm in my Normal life with friends and other people.

The only time this comes up is if somebody brings it up because I know me from the sociology 101 podcast. I just don't talk about this near as often as people think I do. That it just happens to be a popular niche broadcast that I started, you know What eight years ago and it's just grown more in popularity because it is a controversial topic.

Well, that answers kind of the the other question I did have is You know the the title of the show is Soteriology 101 and every time I listen I'd go. Well, how come why is it so much on Calvinism? Rather than other aspects of soteriology, right?

Like why not four or five hours on Justification by faith or the imputed righteousness of Christ, you know things like that. But I mean that you kind of answered that, you know, and that kind of makes well and I have I have.

Just in my defense on that even that particular point. It was with the byline created to because of my journey in and out of Calvinism. And it was it's specifically addressing that niche topic. But I've had many Armenians on who disagree with me on several points.

I've had just recently replied to How to be a Christian the Catholic youtuber and I told him this is not my normal thing. That's not what I normally do and I gave big caveats on all that but I did confront his view at his request on John chapter 6 with regard to transubstantiation and all those kinds of things that Calvinist understand John 6 to be Ultimately addressing and so I did a video recently on that.

So I do occasionally venture into other Minor topics. Back in the kovat days I remember talking about some of those things and we usually tie in God's sovereignty somewhere in there when we're talking about world events and questions regarding that.

But yeah, that that's really it and and I get that I get that comment all the time. It's in my show notes on every video. Does Layton talk about anything else? I click here and and I don't know how else to tell people.

That this is a very small slice of my my pie. I wish sometimes it was only one string it'd be easier. But you know I've got quite a few strings that people just don't know about or watch and they're not interested in for whatever reason.

And I'm gonna say this and I'm gonna preface it because Layton and I know each other well, and we don't mind joking around. But I don't want anyone taking what I'm just what I'm about to say and take it out of context.

So you're being warned if you clip this part.

You should be ashamed of yourself. You're just asking for it now.

Did he almost have like a Freudian slip there when he said he was said he he was doing this secretly is I mean. Almost sounded like a Freudian slip there. Yeah.

Separately and secretly. Actually actually there was some secrecy to it at first. Because honestly, I I didn't want to tell people I'd left Calvinism. I like being a part. Y 'all know what it's like. You were at the Calvinist, you know conference.

Why can't all the close friendships and you know. You got all the heroes of the faith that you really admire Spurgeon and all these kind of guys that you would you know lift up as kind of heroes of the faith.

I was a part of that brotherhood and my best friend is Calvinistic. My brother is Semi Calvinistic. My nephew is Calvinist. I have a bunch of really good friends that are Calvinist. That was my camp. That was what those were my my friends and and so yeah.

There was a part of me that even after I came out of Calvinism I didn't really want to just come out with it because I didn't want to face what I knew was going to be the backlash. And so yeah, there was a time where it was a little bit of a secret for me.

Even though I'd left the the world view.

But the thing is is that you you could go to a why Calvinism conference as a guy known for being Anti-calvinistic and everyone got along with you. Great. You people wanted more pictures with you. I think then anyone else there.

I mean, you know, well, they were just creating fun memes for themselves. I'm sure.

Yeah, and so so I'm gonna continue with the caveat. Don't clip this either out of context, but. Did you say you you split a church over Calvinism. That's how that's how I was a part of it.

Yeah, I was a part. That's what I was a part of the split. Yes. I was a part of the split. Yes but I was on the Calvinist side of it and so we were at a Traditional church in the sense that it was more of a whosoever will slash, you know, whatever provisionist.

Whatever you want to call it label and I don't want to debate over labels. But but I was a part of a church that was that way and the pastor was very much a provisionist type of pastor and There had been a leader in one of the large Sunday school groups that had become a Calvinist and started teaching Calvinistic theology in the class and the pastor got wind of it and eventually the church started splitting.

By the time I came back from college I was a five-pointer and I joined in with that split along with my brother and his family and we ended up. Long story short, but we ended up taking that group of about 12 families or whatever.

It was 50 to 70 people or whatever it was and and starting a new church there in Wiley, which is still there Cornerstone still there.

So.

Defining Provisionism and Its Origins

With that. Let's you know, I want to get into talking about provisionism as son that well I would do. I talk about it, you know, but Drew you you mentioned about Ed being edifying. You know, this is what Ed had said I'm ed I'm always ed defying.

Very good.

You know what? I'm gonna let him speak for himself because there he is. Mr. Ed remind himself and.

Thank you for pronouncing my name, right? Thank you so much.

Oh only because you really got upset with me when I'd call you Romaine and you know, that's lettuce brother. Oh, yeah.

Well, you don't call me dr. Salad like Matt does.

Well, Matt slick has problems. Can we all agree on that? Yep. Hey, this is the first time that I'm not the only one without a beard on the show. Hey, what do you know?

So, um.

So Leighton for folks who don't know you Let me ask when when when is the term? Provisionalism started like where did that's get its history from?

I don't remember the exact time or date. It was more of people really pushing back on the label Traditionalism because that was kind of the label that we were known for in the in the text in the Southern Baptist world.

Because that's what the that connects 360 group 316 group was calling themselves traditionalist and Calvinist rightly so we're pushing back on that because actually the Southern Baptist originally were Calvinistic.

Now you could argue that just because you call something traditional doesn't mean it's the way it started like you could say I'm going to. The traditional worship service that doesn't mean it was the same as it was back in 1845 but but when when the Southern Baptist Convention grew into its huge becoming the largest Protestant domination in the world.

Was under more of a provisionist type of theology in in the 30s 40s 50s. And they had left well left the Calvinism of the earlier years and so I don't really fault the guys for calling it traditional because they're just referring to the way Southern Baptists have been for the.

Most part your grandparents theology would have been more in line with mine. If you're a Southern Baptist then then probably a reformed type Calvinist or a reformed Southern Baptist. Anyway, I just didn't like the labels.

I got tired of explaining that over and over and over again, and I just started saying well You know what my view is God provides. Nobody nobody perishes because God didn't provide for them. Nobody goes to hell because God didn't want them.

Because God picked them for that in eternity past because Jesus didn't die for them. God provides for everyone if they perish they perish as Paul said because they refuse to love the truth so as to be saved and so.

My view is God provides for every soul not just the elect that were chosen unconditionally in eternity past. That's that's what separates in my view Myself from the the mainline Calvinist and so saying God provides is just a I guess it became an ism after.

Kind of referring to that word, but it's just kind of developed that way.

So.

For folks who may not be as familiar. Let's let's do this. Let's start off with you explaining your view. Would you refer to as provisionism?

And then.

And and you know, I'm gonna argue you I know you say you you grew up as a Calvinist and you were a Calvinist. I.

Didn't grow up as one. I. When I was 19, I went off to college and was introduced to Calvinism. I held on to it for about 10 years.

Yeah, and I will argue that you didn't because you have the wrong definition of Calvinism, but And and for folks to realize like you and I you and I will privately Joke with one another and pick on each other with with our differing views.

We can have fun with it, but we do Respect one another even though I I think that you don't have a proper view of Calvinism. You disagree with me. I know that right, but Could you why don't you first?

Actually, maybe before talking provisionism. Let's let's let's get into what is your view of of Calvinism? What do you believe? Yeah, Alvin ism is. Of course, then let's talk about what it what provisionism is.

Yeah. No, I'm glad to do that.

Of course, there's different kinds of Calvinist all different heights and some people call three-point Calvinist for five-point Calvinist and there's different nuances of Calvinism even among Calvinist there's a lot of different disagreements, but if I were to give the baseline like What's the what's the main points that really this?

That associate us with a particular group that would be considered in the Calvinistic camp or not there's even a broadcast by Piper where he's kind of spilling spelling this out and I actually agreed with his his Nuances for the most part, but I'm gonna try to do the kind of the same thing.

What is the baseline thing that would make you a Calvinist and it's really three basic things one. You're born with a moral inability. That means you're corrupt under the corruption in the fall of Adam.

You're born in a condition where you cannot want to receive the gospel message because of your moral condition from birth you're you're Dead in your sins and trespasses. You're separated from God and therefore even if God comes to you with the gospel you will always reject it and say no because of the corruption of your heart unless You were chosen Unconditionally before the foundation of the world not based upon anything that he sees that you do even faith.

He doesn't know in advance that you're gonna do something and choose you on basis of that. He chooses you unconditionally and He irresistibly or effectually means it can't be resisted. It will happen.

He will call those people He chose to himself. He will bring them to new life. He will give them a new nature. Changing their very being their very nature to want to come to Jesus and to want to come to him.

That's the baseline now you can get into some of the other nuances unlimited atonement all those kinds of things. But I don't think that that's the major issues. Or even perseverance all those kinds of things.

I think that's the baseline of what a Calvinist is if you believe you're born without the ability to believe unless God picked you before You were born and causes you through irresistible means to believe in him.

Through a gracious, you know changing of the nature changing in the heart regeneration Then then I would put you in a cow the Calvinistic camp generally speaking.

Okay, and then. You know, I'd disagree with that definition. I've already said that. And for folks who may be new here. Who may go you keep you say you disagree? Why not point it out? Well, one of the things I do when I have a guest on is I want to let the guest explain their views.

Well, I'm really curious as to why you how how and why you would disagree with what I just said. I thought. Really really yeah, we're yeah.

We can get to it. Because I want to make sure you get a chance to at least in the first hour get a chance to explain your views. By the way for we I am also quite aware of Layton's tricks. I'll give you an example of a tree.

He's he's nervous with what I might say but so just picture the scene you you have like a dozen and a half Calvinists in a room and Layton flowers and. There's at least two or three cameras running and he knows that and he knows he's the guy that's the anti Calvinist at a Y Calvinist conference.

So what does he do? He goes let's talk dispensationalism Andrew and gets everybody to attack me and the two other dispensationalists in the room for like 75 of the time and then goes, okay. So you guys have any questions about me?

I know it's about time to go now. See. I would have loved to have been there to see that.

There is video of that. Yes. More from dead man walking has the video. If you go on his his Channel you could probably find that video. So yeah, so I know I know I know his tricks. But explain now, I mean, what do you believe?

I mean when you say, you know provision is what is your view that you would hold to?

Well, even basing off those same three points. I I believe that everyone by God's design Created everyone with a conscience everyone with the ability to make decisions and choices and Though yes, the fall has a horrible impact on humanity.

We're separated from God. And so deadness is more like the prodigal son. He was said to be lost, but now he's found he's dead now He's alive. I would say yes, we're dead in our sins and trespasses. But that's that we are separated from our Creator due to our rebellion not that we can't respond To his life-giving truth so as to be saved.

So I reject the concept and idea that everyone's born in a condition where they can't respond positively to the gospel appeal. So that would be first. Second I don't believe God chooses to save people unilaterally before he even creates them.

And so I believe his choice to save is based upon them putting their trust and faith in him. And so I don't believe in unconditional election in that sense. I believe that the election is like the the story of the Wedding banquet where he sends the invitation to all people but few are elect and who are the elect those who come in response to the invitation Clothed in the righteousness of Christ the wedding garments.

So the condition is not their morality or their nationality. It's not about based upon their goodness or their badness like he says go to the good in the battle like and it's not based upon whether they're Israelite or not as Was commonly misunderstood but it is based on something.

Hey, what do you have against us Israelites? Well, since he was talking to them, I think that that was the only. No offense, no offense. I'm gonna be an anti-semite now. So, you know.

Yeah, people are jumping on that bandwagon pretty quick. Yeah, so so there is a condition.

It's not your morality and it's not your nationality, but it is faith in Christ. That is the condition for your election and there's other aspects of election. It's not just one choice. God makes many choices in his plan of redemption.

The choice of the nation of Israel to bring his Messiah in the plan of The plan of redemption through them. So there are other elections of God in redemptive history besides the choice of an individual to be saved.

But the individuals he does choose to save is is conditional not unconditional on provisionism. And then finally, I don't believe the grace that calls us to salvation is irresistible or effectual. I would say that it that you can suppress the truth and unrighteousness or you can accept the truth and humble yourself and receive it.