Let's Talk Calvinism with Leighton Flowers

It's the fact of I'm sharing you with you. What I would see is good news You wouldn't

I get it But the thing is there's a difference between saying this is the freedom of speech to say this is what the

Bible says I'm not telling you you have to believe it. I'm not forcing you to be a Christian I'm not and there's no no

Christians are trying to legislate to force you to be a Christian or go to go to church

Have you seen project 2025? Did you see black blue 2025? No, I have not.

Where does that does that legislate that people have to be in church? I don't know if it does that We are live apologetics live here to answer your most

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Come in ask me your most challenging question as their godless. Grandma did in that opening

I sometimes have an answer like I did for her. But just remember one thing. I don't know is a perfectly good

Answer never said to be a satisfying one. I just said I can always give you an answer Sometimes I'm just gonna say

I don't know. This is a ministry of striving for eternity org Let me bring in my long -lost co -host

You Found me Company you you you know, you go off the mark the office of the scene

Yeah, I leave I come back and I've got this big beard kind of like you, you know Yeah, actually right now we'll bring everyone if at some point

We'll probably bring everyone in this backstage and at least right now everyone who's backstage has a nice beard

Yeah, I'm just gonna say we have latent flowers I'm gonna put a poll out there now so people can get ready to answer

I'm gonna ask who looks to be older Layton flowers or myself when we bring him in with with his glorious beard

Because he said He's saying I'm looking like Santa Claus and I can see it but you know

Cuz I've never seen Layton with a beard usually every video I've seen he's clean -shaven He's got a really nice beard, yeah, yeah,

I think he had it when we were out at the Open air theology conference last year.

I can't remember that was on why Calvinism Layton was there. We had a great time of discussion Let me just say for the record.

I had a couple people ask. Why are you having Layton on? Anyone asking that is clearly not a regular viewer here at apologetics live

We always bring in people we disagree with because we like good discussions and we like to show well

We're here for apologetics Not only are we gonna have the discussions, but we want to also display how to have discussions without losing your mind losing your patience

Okay, maybe last episode was kind of hard with the guy that wanted to argue that Jesus was the

Son of God and not God, but He was God but had the spirit of God yeah, if any of you did not watch the last episode

You try to figure out what that guy was actually saying because after two hours, I'm still trying to figure out what minister

Andrew was Talking about it was not clear and he kept saying he was saying so clearly alright, so before we bring

Layton in is some things not really maybe in the news section, but I Just I post this because I thought this was really funny drew

I don't know if you saw I've been doing more trying to do some more short videos, you know I mean,

I haven't had a chance to listen to him though. Yeah, they're short. They're short So I'm just doing them like what I'm driving trying to do like two to five minute videos.

So that's dangerous, right? Well, technically my hands are oh wait, no, technically my hands don't have to be on the wheel the car was driving

I I had nothing to do with it. I just have to keep my eyes I mean, I just you know, cuz you're getting older right the beard you're getting older That yeah, well dangerous.

I want to make sure everyone around you is protected yeah, so I Was I happen to be in the car when

I thought about it and so I you know But I did one on transgender is in the hypocrisy of transgenderism because the issue is with transgenderism

They they will say when you see a boy playing with dolls and they go. Oh, that's really a girl

What they're actually doing is proving that they don't believe there's multiple genders because well If there were multiple genders, then a boy playing with dolls wouldn't be a problem

But right they take the stereotypical opposite and go. Oh, that's what it that must be right and so I Did a video on that and so someone contacted me saying that she was a news magazine

Reporter or whatever all that comment. I did see that comment Yeah, and so she basically was asking me

By what authority do I have to speak on transgenderism since I'm not a biologist

Was the same as you do I mean like I don't think she's realized that just because she reports on things doesn't make her an expert

Like she's not a biologist either Yeah Crazy right?

Yeah, I mean we see all these reporters that think they're experts and everything because they Invent stuff, right?

They misrepresent what other people say they invent a narrative and all of a sudden they're an expert on it

Yeah, so I see you start a couple things before we bring Leighton in really quickly Ed Romine, it looks like you know

Romaine which is a lettuce. So if you call him Romaine, he's gonna set I You start this and I'm curious why you start this so I started because cuz

Ed doesn't typically come into the chat and so he showed up he's here and Though when he was on the show he was on the show like a while ago

It was a fantastic show and I think we need to bring him back on I think we should but there's a different reason why

I wanted to highlight that when I saw you started the reason Ed said hi and Leighton can attest to this

Because like five or ten minutes before the show started when Ed knows I got a show that starts Thursday nights at 8 o 'clock

It calls me to say hi So I said, why don't you join the show and say hi then so he went into the chat said hi

I don't have Ed's number. So, you know, yeah,

Ed's a great brother anyone who doesn't know Ed Romaine You know, you should get to know him so not only that great preacher great expositor

I see the videos he posts on Facebook Very in a very edifying and and if you're gonna think that for anyone who doesn't know

Ed I still think this is the funniest thing was, you know, Ed used to call Matt slicks program and He'd call in and at one point

Matt finally was like, you know, listen if you're gonna keep calling Can you they sound like can you not be drunk when you're doing it?

And had it had say well, I got cerebral palsy It's not that I'm drunk.

It's just my my speech is slurred for the reason like yeah, Matt felt real bad Which is always fun.

I if Ed can make Matt feel bad. I am all for that That that's hard to do one plus ministry says

Andrew Rapport is a great brother. He's lying right there Even amongst disagreements. That's why

I started this one. Yeah. Yeah I'm glad you're having this discussion. Also, we have the same birthday.

So there you go At least one thing that I did. Well, I was born on the same day as him So so maybe that that's why we're getting along So, let me bring mr.

Flowers in and here's the poll now everyone you can decide which one of us looks older between Leighton and I I Think drew does he got a little bit more white in his beard than me

You know, he does. He's also got better lighting too, though I mean, yeah, because but if you look at the complexion of his skin,

I mean it doesn't quite Look as wrinkle Hey, well if you compare the picture that's on your logo

Andrew you definitely would win. Oh, yeah. Yeah Well, what were you 30 then?

From 1992 wait this one here That logo is on your logo on the screen earlier before you brought me on.

Yes The one with here with me in the tux. Oh die Yeah, that one's only yeah, that one's only like four or five years ago.

So there you go. Oh, I have a Age me a lot of shades anybody who shaves which by the way,

I've had this beard for several years I'm not sure when you saw me clean -shaven. It must have been a video from a long time ago, but But anybody who's clean -shaven

Typically, especially if that gray in their beard will look younger my even my son who doesn't have any gray had a beard

Yeah, that that that logo right there is when I was talking about That that when he shaved his beard he lost at least five years on him pretty quick Yeah, so Layton we uh, you know, you and I have known each other.

I don't know how many years now it's been We've always gotten along I know that that I mean

I When you came out to the white Calvinist conference I remember taking a picture and and sharing it and saying

I'm with my friend Layton and I had people Tell me how you know friend.

How dare you call him that he is like So you have the river

I get the reverse sometimes whenever you know, Matt slick or somebody that ours It well -known

Calvinist that I'll refer to as friend being friends with him. I'll get people from my side like well, he's a heretic

Why would you be a friend with him? It's like all those kinds of things. I get more comments. I Get more negative comments from people who are from my side on The the fact that I'm too nice to Calvinist That I do from Calvinist getting on to me now

I get a lot of hate mail from Calvinist to as you can imagine But I get even more from people who don't think

Calvinist are Christians or shouldn't be considered brothers And and from people who question my views on eternal security and those kinds of things

So I actually get more Mail of those who from my side in the sense of those who disagree with me than from the

Calvinistic side believe it or not So let's give for folks who may not know who you are

Maybe they don't study Calvinism or Minionism other things and along those arguments

How about you introduce folks to yourself give a little bit of your background so that folks know that you're not just some guy we picked up off the street to argue over Calvinism with Absolutely, well,

I appreciate that opportunity One I wasn't born Talking about this topic.

I started this topic back close to 2015 and it was because I was going through a doctoral program where I was writing on the subject because I was a

Calvinist for about a decade and I ended up leaving Calvinism and I ended up writing on the topic because it was a pretty passionate topic for me because our home church had split

Over the issue. I was actually a part of the group that split off as a Calvinist at the time

And so it was a very deep issue for me And so when I began to come out of Calvinism It was a huge impact on me my family and the people around us and so I ended up doing my dissertation on this topic and was teaching a course and In the course the students really begin to engage with this particular topic and one of them even suggested

Hey, you should do a podcast on this and that kind of started That's why it's called sociology 101 by the way, it's because that was the name of the section of the course

I wasn't expecting it to be a I wouldn't even a YouTube page at the time it was just recordings that we were putting on the webinar for the class and then we just moved it over into a recording place and Then eventually it we started broadcasting on YouTube after people started suggesting that we do that so it just kind of developed into what it is now for those that don't know and I kept it separate from my ministry pages for evangelism and apologetics in Texas Baptist and all

I was doing there because Because it's such a hot topic and it's inner varsity among Christians I didn't want it to overrun or to be interfering with my other ministry, which was much bigger at the time and Now everybody gets the impression.

This is all I talk about and this is all I do people accuse me all the time One string banjo matter of fact, they've even got my little one string banjo that you know from James White's accusation

And I've got one or I've kind of just adopted that that label because I understand if that's all you know of me

But I was a director of evangelism for for 20 years for with Texas Baptist I recently left that ministry and began full -time at Trinity College of the

Bible and Theological Seminary as the professor of theology and I also do this broadcast and working on some other projects on the side as well

Which hopefully will come to fruition here in the near future so are you

I Heard I don't know if this is true from what you just said I heard that you are now just full -time with soteriology 101.

Are you still know? Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary is where I'm still there. And this is more of a side.

Yes, I think yeah Okay. Yes someone back in February's told me that I was like really? Okay, I I Didn't know attacking

Calvinism could make it a full -time career, but you know, maybe you could So so yeah your background and and there is a question that I did get you know

And you saw I tagged you You know looking for questions So hopefully you saw them everywhere and got ready for them but but I grabbed some questions and one person did ask about you being an evangelist and you know that but the only thing they know you for is is your criticism on Calvinism and My response was basically if and you may not even remember this many years ago when we started this program and it was

Matt slick and I You came in you used to come in and every once in a while and there was a guy you and Matt were tag -teaming evangelizing to an atheist that came in and I remember when that show was over you had dropped off and at the at the kind of was

I don't know if it was the after show or just when Matt and I were talking and Matt was just like Man, Leighton is such a good job sharing the gospel.

Why doesn't he do that more versus this attacking Calvinism? You know, I've asked that I don't have any lost people in my studio

I mean, I you know, I I do have training videos and Articles and things

I've written on the subject but you know Twelve people will watch those whereas 1 ,200 people will watch a controversial topic like Calvinism.

I can't help that And even the provisionist perspective they cover all sorts of topics, but they'll even mark remark

You know, we'll get 10 % of the normal listeners when we talk about this topic or this topic of this topic

But we talk about Calvinism and the conflict there and we get you know, our normal amount of views

And again, I that's not what motivates me to do what I do That's why I created the page separately because it is such a popular topic and a controversial one among Christians I kept it secret as separate so as to keep it from Interfering with what

I consider the more important things, but the fact that it's popular I can't help that So the fact that that's the only reason you know me,

I I can't help that I mean if you want to listen to my sermons on other topics, they're out there

Caleb has posted them on videos and on you know Our social media pages and they get a fraction of the views as the other stuff does

But that's just the nature of the beast, I guess You know, I have to admit that and I had asked this of Andrew a while ago and then

I said of him the other night You know, why is it that Calvinism is the only thing

I ever he and that's by the way that's how how I've learned about you was talking about Calvinism and Andrews Andrew told me the story about with Matt slick and he said no no

No, he said I've heard him evangelize and I've heard him give the gospel and it's it's great

But in fact unless somebody knows me from the podcast and invites me to come speak on this particular topic

I Rarely mentioned Calvinism or anything associated with Calvinism when I'm speaking or when

I'm in my normal life with friends and other people The only time this comes up is if somebody brings it up because I know me from the sociology 101 podcast

I just don't talk about this near as often as people think I do That it just happens to be a popular niche broadcast that I started, you know

What eight years ago and it's just grown more in popularity because it is a controversial topic well, that answers kind of the the other question

I did have is You know, the the title of the show is soteriology 101 and every time

I listen I'd go Well, how come why is it so much on Calvinism? Rather than other aspects of soteriology, right?

Like why not four or five hours on Justification by faith or the imputed righteousness of Christ, you know things like that But I mean that you kind of answered that, you know, and that kind of makes well and I have

I have Just in my defense on that even that particular point It was with the byline created to because of my journey in and out of Calvinism and it was it's specifically

Addressing that niche topic, but I've had many Armenians on who disagree with me on several points I've had just recently replied to How to be a

Christian the Catholic Youtuber and I told him this is not my normal thing That's not what I normally do and I gave big caveats on all that but I did confront his view at his request on John chapter 6 with regard to transubstantiation and all those kinds of things that Calvinist understand

John 6 to be Ultimately addressing and so I did a video recently on that. So I do occasionally venture into other

Minor topics back in the kovat days I remember talking about some of those things and we usually tie in God's sovereignty somewhere in there when we're talking about world events and questions regarding that But yeah, that that's really it and and I get that I get that comment all the time

It's in my show notes on every video does Layton talk about anything else? I click here and and I don't know how else to tell people

That this is a very small slice of my my pie I wish sometimes it was only one string it'd be easier

But you know I've got quite a few strings that people just don't know about or watch and they're not interested in for whatever reason and I'm gonna say this and I'm gonna preface it because Layton and I know each other well, and we don't mind joking around But I don't want anyone taking what

I'm just what I'm about to say and take it out of context So you're being warned if you clip this part

You should be ashamed of yourself. You're just asking for it now Did he almost have like a

Freudian slip there when he said he was said he was doing this Secretly is I mean almost sounded like a

Freudian slip there. Yeah Separately and secretly Actually, actually there was some secrecy to it at first Because honestly,

I I didn't want to tell people I'd left Calvinism. I like being a part Y 'all know what it's like you're at the

Calvinist, you know conference all the close friendships and you know You got all the heroes of the faith that you really admire

Spurgeon and all these kind of guys that you would you know lift up as kind of heroes of the faith I was a part of that brotherhood and my best friend is

Calvinistic. My brother is Semi Calvinistic my nephew is Calvinist. I have a bunch of really good friends that are

Calvinist That was my camp. That was those were my my friends and and so yeah There was a part of me that even after I came out of Calvinism I didn't really want to just come out with it because I didn't want to face what

I knew was going to be the backlash And so yeah, there was a time where it was a little bit of a secret for me

Even though I'd left the the world view but the thing is is that you you could go to a wide

Calvinism conference as a guy known for being Anti -Calvinistic and everyone got along with you great you people wanted more pictures with you.

I think then anyone else there I mean, you know, well, they were just creating fun memes for themselves. I'm sure

Yeah, and so so I'm gonna continue with the caveat don't clip this either out of context but Did you say you you split a church over Calvinism?

That's how that's how I heard of it. Yeah Yes, I was a part of the split yes but I was on the

Calvinist side of it and so we were at a Traditional church in the sense that it was more of a whosoever will slash, you know

Whatever provisionist whatever you want to call it label, and I don't want to debate over labels. It's just labels yeah, but but I was a part of a church that was that way and the pastor was very much a provisionist type of pastor and there had been a leader in one of the large

Sunday school groups that had become a Calvinist and started teaching Calvinistic theology in the class and The pastor got wind of it and eventually the church started splitting by the time

I came back from college I was a five -pointer and I joined in with that split along with my brother and his family and we ended up Long story short, but we ended up taking that group of about 12 families or whatever

It was 50 to 70 people or whatever it was and and starting a new church there in Wiley Which is still there cornerstone still there so with that Let's you know,

I want to get into talking about provisionism its son that well What do I talk about, you know, but drew you you mentioned about Ed being edifying and you know

This is what Ed had said. I'm Ed. I'm always Ed Defying.

Yeah, very good You know what? I'm gonna let him speak for himself because there he is.

Mr. Ed remind himself Thank you for pronouncing my name right? Thank you so much

Only because you really got upset with me when I'd call you Romaine and you know, that's lettuce brother.

Oh, yeah Well, I wish you don't call me. Dr. Sal like Matt does Well, Matt slick has problems

Can we all agree on that? Yep. Hey, this is the first time that I'm not the only one without a beard on the show.

Hey, what do you know? So, um So Leighton for folks who don't know you

Let me ask when when when is the term provisionalism started like where did that get its history from I Don't remember the exact time or date it was more of people really pushing back on the label traditionalism and because that was kind of the label of that we were known for in the in the text in the

Southern Baptist world because that's what the that connects 360 group 316 group was calling themselves traditionalist and Calvinist rightly so we're pushing back on that because actually the

Southern Baptist originally were Calvinistic now You could argue that just because you call something traditional doesn't mean it's the way it started like you could say

I'm going to the traditional Worship service that doesn't mean it was the same as it was back in 1845 but but when when the

Southern Baptist Convention grew into its huge becoming the largest Protestant nomination in the world It was under more of a provisionist type of theology in in the 30s 40s 50s

And they'd left well left the Calvinism of the earlier years and so I don't really fault the guys for calling it traditional because they're just referring to the way

Southern Baptists have been for the Most part your grandparents theology would have been more in line with mine

If you're a Southern Baptist than then probably a reformed type Calvinist or a reformed Southern Baptist Anyway, I just didn't like the labels

I got tired of explaining that over and over and over again, and I just started saying well You know what? My view is

God provides Nobody nobody perishes because God didn't provide for them. Nobody goes to hell because God didn't want them

Because God picked them for that in eternity past because Jesus didn't die for them God provides for everyone if they perish they perish as Paul said because they refuse to love the truth so as to be saved and so My view is

God provides for every soul not just the elect that were chosen unconditionally in eternity past That's that's what separates in my view myself from the the mainline

Calvinist and So saying God provides is just a I guess it became an ism after kind of referring to that word

But it's just kind of developed that way so For folks who may not be as familiar

Let's let's do this. Let's start off with you explaining your view. Would you refer to as provisionism?

and then And and you know, I'm gonna argue you I know you say you you grew up as a

Calvinist and you were a Calvinist I Didn't grow up as one. I When I was 19,

I went off to college and was introduced to Calvinism. I held on to it for about 10 years Yeah, and I will argue that you didn't because you have the wrong definition of Calvinism, but And and for folks to realize like you and I you and I will privately

Joke with one another and pick on each other with with our differing views. We can have fun with it, but we do

Respect one another even though I I think that you don't have a proper view of Calvinism.

You disagree with me. I know that right, but Could you why don't you first?

Actually, maybe before talking provisionism. Let's let's let's get into what is your view of of Calvinism?

What do you believe? Yeah, Alvin ism is Of course, then then let's talk about what what provisionism is.

Yeah. No, I'm glad to do that Of course, there's different kinds of Calvinist all different heights and some people call three -point

Calvinist for five -point Calvinist and there's different nuances of Calvinism even among Calvinist there's a lot of different disagreements, but if I were to give the baseline like What's the what's the main points that really?

just That associate us with a particular group that would be considered in the Calvinistic camp or not there's even a broadcast by Piper where he's kind of spilling this out and I actually agreed with his his

Nuances for the most part, but I'm gonna try to do the kind of the same thing What is the baseline thing that would make you a

Calvinist and it's really three basic things one You're born with a moral inability.

That means you're corrupt under the corruption in the fall of Adam You're born in a condition where you cannot want to receive the gospel message because of your moral condition from birth.

You're Dead in your sins and trespasses You're separated from God and therefore even if God comes to you with the gospel

You will always reject it and say no because of the corruption of your heart unless You were chosen unconditionally before the foundation of the world not based upon anything that he sees that you do even faith

He doesn't know in advance that you're gonna do something and choose you on basis of that. He chooses you unconditionally and He irresistibly or effectually means it can't be resisted.

It will happen. He will call those people He chose to himself. He will bring them to new life.

He will give them a new nature Changing their very being their very nature to want to come to Jesus and to want to come to him

That's the baseline now you can get into some of the other nuances unlimited atonement all those kinds of things But I don't think that that's the major issues

Or even perseverance all those kinds of things I think that's the baseline of what a Calvinist is if you believe you're born without the ability to believe unless God picked you before You were born and causes you through irresistible means to believe in him

Through a gracious, you know changing of the nature changing in the heart regeneration Then then

I would put you in a count the Calvinistic camp generally speaking Okay, and then

You know, I'd disagree with that definition I've already said that and for folks who may be new here

Who may go you keep you say disagree? Why not point it out? Well, one of the things I do when

I have a guest on is I want to let the guests explain their views Well, I'm really curious as to why you how how and why you would disagree with what

I just said I thought really really yeah, we're yeah We can get to it Because I want to make sure you get a chance to at least in the first hour get a chance to explain your views

By the way for we I am also quite aware of Leighton's tricks. I'll give you an example of a tree

He's he's nervous with what I might say but so just picture the scene you you have like a dozen and a half

Calvinists in a room and Leighton flowers and There's at least two or three cameras running and he knows that and he knows he's the guy that's the anti Calvinist at a

Y Calvinist conference. So what does he do? He goes let's talk dispensationalism Andrew and gets everybody to attack me and the two other dispensationalists in the room for like 75 % of the time and then goes, okay.

So you guys have any questions about me? I know it's about time to go now. See I would have loved to have been there to see that There is video of that.

Yes More from dead man walking has the video if you go on his his

Channel you could probably find that video So, yeah, so I know

I know I know his tricks But explain now, I mean, what do you believe?

I mean when you say, you know prisoners What is your view that you would hold to? Well, even basing off those same three points.

I I believe that everyone by God's design Created everyone with a conscience everyone with the ability to make decisions and choices and Though yes, the fall has a horrible impact on humanity.

We're separated from God. And so deadness is more like the prodigal son He was said to be lost, but now he's found he's dead now.

He's alive I would say yes, we're dead in our sins and trespasses But that's that we are separated from our

Creator due to our rebellion not that we can't respond To his life -giving truth so as to be saved

So I reject the concept and idea that everyone's born in a condition where they can't respond positively to the gospel appeal

So that would be first second I don't believe God chooses to save people unilaterally before he even creates them

And so I believe his choice to save is based upon them putting their trust and faith in him

And so I don't believe in unconditional election in that sense. I believe that the election is like the the story of the

Wedding banquet where he sends the invitation to all people but few are elect and who are the elect those who come in response to the

Invitation clothed in the righteousness of Christ the wedding garments. So the condition is not their morality or their nationality

It's not about based upon their goodness or their badness It like he says go to the good in the battle like and it's not based upon whether they're

Israelite or not as was commonly Misunderstood, but it is based on something. Hey, what do you have against us

Israelites? Well, since he was talking to them, I think that that was the only

No offense, no offense. I'm gonna be an anti -semite now Yeah, people are jumping on that bandwagon pretty quick.

Yeah, so so there is a condition It's not your morality and it's not your nationality, but it is faith in Christ That is the condition for your election and there's other aspects of election

It's not just one choice God makes many choices in his plan of redemption the choice of the nation of Israel to bring his

Messiah in the plan of The plan of redemption through them So there are other elections of God in redemptive history besides the choice of an individual to be saved

But the individuals he does choose to save is is conditional not unconditional on provisionism

And then finally, I don't believe the grace that calls us to salvation is irresistible or effectual

I would say that it that you can suppress the truth and unrighteousness or you can accept the truth and humble yourself and receive it

And I don't think that marriage or salvation I don't think a gift has to be irresistibly given in order for the giver to get all the credit for giving the gift and so just because I don't believe it's irresistible doesn't mean

I don't give God all the glory for our salvation as Sometimes we're accused of believing because again a gift doesn't have to be

Effectually given for God to get all the credit for giving his gifts In fact, he should get the credit for all the gifts.

He Made the appeal and tried to give to people but they refused. I think he should get credit for those gifts as well

So, let me ask you some questions and we got a pile of questions piling up here um both both, uh in the stream and then ones that uh, i'm i'm getting on the side so um

With the way you describe some of that let me ask this some just foundation questions

I don't think you you disagree with some of these at all, but You believe God would be eternal, correct?

Sure And then how would you define? Eternality Uh, I guess there's always shortage of words and describing this timeless, you know, um, not

Uh, you know outside you can even say God can be both as cs lewis talks about this and I quote him in my book about being both inside and outside of time and There's mysterious aspects of that but there is no beginning to god.

There is no end to god. He is not material He is not

Aging like we are obviously he does not have a beginning like we do obviously And so, um those those kinds of concepts are usually what i'm referring to when

I say that god's eternal And and I expected that I didn't think you were going to disagree there, um, you would agree that god is omniscient

Right. Yes Meaning that he's all known right? He he knows he knows what is going to actually happen even though It may be future to us

Right because he's eternal and omniscient. It's something like he knows what's going to happen tomorrow. We don't correct

And and you'd agree he he knows that with an absolute knowledge, right? It's not like he's Well, I know some people one of the questions

I think that came in was you know If you are why are you not an open theist? So we'll probably get to that.

I know that's been more more of a uh in more recent years a an a

Uh assessment of of you leaning that way. So maybe we we will get to that next on that at the next hour um, but I mean

You agree that god knows absolutely what's going to happen tomorrow even though we don't know right correct okay, and and so When you speak about god

You know saving us Before the foundation of time things like this, right?

We have that, you know, the ephesians one passage, right? God god elected us before the foundation of the world

Do you believe there that he's speaking says he chose us actually says he chose us in him

In him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless, correct? Yeah, do you believe that's a chronological thing that there's like that he is bound by time because the way you described it

It sounds like you're saying god's You know is is in calvinism that god is choosing people before they're born chronologically but And so the question

I guess i'm getting to is if god if we both agree god's eternal That there was no Before anything with with you know with him.

It's all I explain in eternal now Um, well the bible says before so I say before like the bible says it

So do you think that god is is Bound by time in that sense that he's doing something chronologically

Well, I mean obviously since creation there is a chronological order in creation and within time and so to To say that he chose people in uh chose people before creation or before matter exists

Is is a chronological thing because it is before he created And do you think that he could be like is because you're you're saying that because there's the before you're saying it's chronological

Could in this text this is and so we're looking for folks who want to go look up the passage, right? This is ephesians one um

If you look at three to six, i'll just i'll read it it says Blessed be the god and father of our lord.

Jesus christ who has blessed us With every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in christ

Just as he chose us In him before the foundation of the world

That we would be holy and blameless before him in love

He predestined us To adoption as sons through jesus christ to himself according to The kind intention of his will to the praise and the glory of grace

Which he freely bestowed upon us the beloved so that's that's the full Text that we're referring to there um

And and so when I when I look at this i'm seeing that what he's

Tying this to is the fact that We we received every spiritual blessing, right?

And that this is something we have Just as he chose us so we get this blessing from him just as he chose us

The emphasis I think is more on not a chronological ordering As much as it is to say we had nothing to do with it

I mean what what better way to say you had nothing to do with your own salvation You had nothing to do with the spiritual blessing that you'll receive

That you had nothing to do with being holy and blameless before him than to say you're as he says in verse five predestined or in verse, uh four to say

This happened before the foundation of the world I mean You see my point with it? Yeah, I understand the the sentiment and I understand the idea of wanting to give god all the credit for your salvation

But unfortunately, I think that Necessity that necessitates the idea that you also give god all the blame for those who don't accept him because On calvinism god didn't really bring a provision to them or a way of salvation

They were chosen for reprobation before they were born And and therefore they're ultimately perishing and they're ultimately being punished for something they have no meaningful control over Again, that that's why one of the reasons

I don't accept that that flow But the other reason is because I think you really miss sometimes calvinists will miss

The who is being chosen And for what? You see this as the who is being those unilaterally picked before creation

Somewhat seemingly arbitrary even though I know that that word's not liked even though jonathan edwards used that word calvin used that word

But it comes across as very arbitrary meaning we have no Knowledge as to why he picks one person another he just it's a mystery hidden within the council of his will for his glory

But we don't know why he picks bob and not bill in a given situation We it's it's a mystery and I just don't find that that's taught in scripture

I think the who In ephesians 1 is what he says back up in verse 1 the faithful who are in christ that in him in christ is repeated 10 times throughout this

First chapter and so in him is really important. Where are you located when you're chosen? You're in him unless you believe you're in him for all of eternity, which

I Ephesians 2 debunks that concept because we all used to walk according to the flesh and and and as people of wrath and Following satan and our own lust and those kinds of things because of where we were before we came to be in christ and verse 13 tells us

It's when you hear the word of truth and you believe you're marked in him So you're not marked in him in eternity past you're marked in him when you believe

Now to get back to the verse And it says he chose us in him. What I believe that means is he chose us.

Who's us the faithful in christ So us in him is referring to the faithful in christ and he chose us for what for salvation

No, it says he chose us the faithful in christ believers to be made holy and blameless

That means he's chosen He's predestined for those who are in christ to be made like his son

Which is the other time the word predestination is used by paul over in romans 8 So he's predestining believers

To be made holy and blameless whether they're jew or gentile And this is why he says it's before the foundation of the world Just like he says in ephesians chapter 3 where he talks about this has been god's plan from the beginning

This is not a new plan And that's what I think he's combating when he says he chose the faithful in christ before the foundation of the world

To be made like christ to be made holy and blameless to be adopted and that's something we are waiting for a future

Hope that we have for adoption in the future And that's why we know we are predestined for adoption because if you put your faith in christ

You know god is destined beforehand that you will be Made holy and blameless and you will be taking up residence with him as an adopted son or daughter

So so are you you're moving adoption to a future state, correct?

Well, i'm not paul does okay um because that was going to be one of my questions is

Uh, how in what you said regarding verse 4, how do you square being predestined unto?

Adoption because adoption is a specific aspect of salvation Right.

Yeah where well romans 8 23 Paul says we eagerly await for our adoption the redemption of our bodies

And so there isn't already not yet like when you go and fill out the paperwork to adopt a child Sure legally you've adopted them

But they're not fully adopted until they come home with you and take up residence in the place you prepared in advance for them

And so our adoption is not completed until glorification But i'm predestined to glorification because i'm in christ not because he picked me unilaterally before I was born

So it doesn't say you're predestined to be a believer It says believers are predestined to be made holy and blameless And this is the choice that god made from the beginning.

This has always been his plan It's not a new plan jew gentile, whoever you are if you're in christ god is destined beforehand.

This is what's going to happen to you so I mean it's just Did god know

I mean if god is all -knowing did he know? You know given what we've just went over Before he created the world who would be saved and who wouldn't be saved

Yeah, I don't think the bible addresses that specifically so that gets into the philosophical This is where the debate between molinists, uh, the boethian view of the eternal now view of god um, the the

The determinist usually calvinist fall into the theistic determinist camp philosophically Um, they're all philis and open theist or dynamic perspectives because open theist aren't monolithic either there are differing perspectives among them as well

And and i'm friends with all of those in all of those different camps and and I disagree with obviously the determinist

I disagree with the open theist Um, I land usually where c .s lewis lands, which is more of the concept and idea that god being outside of time um

Can can fathom these mysteries of his knowledge? Uh, I like uh, john lennox's answer to this question

I don't know how he created something from nothing, but I believe that he created something from nothing So it's a difference between how and that and the same thing

I I don't know how he knows what i'm going to eat tomorrow because I don't even know for sure what i'm going to eat Tomorrow, but I believe that he does how does god know the future free choices of his creation?

I don't know But I believe that he does I don't believe he has to determine it in order to know it

And I think that's where the mistake of the determinist is is that ultimately they've got god Knowing that which he causes or he determines in eternity past and I don't think that the knowledge is causal

I think he knows what we will freely do and that's beyond full comprehension And I believe he has the ability to bring about his plans and purposes

Through his knowledge and his sovereign working to bring about circumstances and things

In order to bring about his his purpose and his plan ultimately and yes There's still mystery there just like calvinists have certain appeals to mystery.

So do provisionist or Open theist or molinist or any of the other groups? I don't self -proclaim as a molinist because i'm not a philosopher by trade and if I did that I would have to defend the system

And i'm not smart enough to do it to be honest, but I do uh resonate a lot with um, what um,

Men like braxton hunter, uh, eric hernandez has been on the show Wayland craig obviously is is kind of the big name of the molinist group.

That's that's philosophical primarily and so I know, um,

Philosophically you can get into those kinds of discussions about the knowledge of god And I and I understand there are a lot of different ways in which to answer that question

So I know where the question's coming from is if you know God knows something prior to creating it isn't that the same as determinism and I just don't believe that it is

I don't think it's necessary and even most philosophers who are christians Uh agree with me on that particular point

But you'll you'll have to let eric know There is no way to defend molinism, you know when you see him,

I know you work with him And and the joke i'll make sure i'll make sure he knows make sure he knows that and tell him

That's the reason he's he's tell him he's avoiding to debate me But it's it's not we are we're trying to set up a debate eric and I i'll prod him along.

Oh, yeah Yeah, we you know every date we've given it it hasn't worked out we we have tried but we'll get we'll get that You can save your philosophical questions for eric.

He'll he'll be able to handle those a lot better than I can so I don't want to do a whole show on ephesians one because we had more to be viewed more than you want to go on Because folks if you don't realize and this is a joke

Layton will not be offended by this because i've made this to him often but I could say something in five minutes and layton will do a three -hour response.

So I I haven't done a three -hour one in a long time. Just so you know That's because you haven't responded to me in a long time

The but the reality is layton is a little bit more verbose than Than most i'm long -winded i'm long -winded.

I know I know So I I expect well established lots of questions, uh, and that that's fine

Uh, we can always have you come back on And we could do a two -hour response show to everything that you've said or you know, or do two shows in response, but um

I did find it interesting though, just to to to see that you tied the um

Idea of before the foundation of the world to the holy and blameless which is

You know the language here is that's the result of This and you didn't tie it to the every spiritual blessing, which

I think is no, I would agree. Yeah. No before the foundation of the world God chose for all who are in christ by faith.

He's the chosen one. He's the he's the eternal one We didn't exist before the foundation of the world christ did he's the chosen one

We're only chosen insofar as we're in christ And this is a choice he made before the foundation of the world for all who are in christ whether jew or gentile

To be made holy and blameless and to have all these other spiritual blessings that that are listed there That's what god has chosen for those who are in christ so Okay, i'm gonna i'm gonna pass on the next question because I want to get on to other things but drew it looked like you had one more question uh,

I mean, I think it I think it's going to fall under what uh, Dr. Flowers, uh was talking about the philosophical area, um and how

I was how i'm kind of viewing or setting up my initial question was it looks like when god is

Uh knowing his his knowledge of understanding, uh before the foundation of the world

Um, who would be saved who wouldn't it or you know what he knows That it would fall really in two categories either he has decreed it or he is taking in knowledge and learning about about what's going to happen because I mean if we

If god is omniscient then he is omniscient from beginning to end Yeah, but what is he knowing?

all things I know but is he knowing what you will freely choose to do or is he knowing what he's decreed for you to do?

I mean, so so he he knows I can only do what god has decreed Right in my life, right?

So but there's things we differ See, we think he knows what you're going to freely do and you you think he knows what he's determined for you to do

So there's ways so especially when we start talking about the idea of calvinism and predestination and election um

I would view it more as dealing with salvation, right? Whereas I hear others say oh, well, you know god determined I was going to wear this shirt

Well, the shirt is irrelevant because the shirt doesn't have any eternal effect on my soul

Whereas me being a depraved sinner Having my heart changed by god and drawn by god

Um in order to believe and he brings me to repentance and faith, right that has an eternal effect on my soul

That's something that in my dead heart. I cannot choose on my own I have to have a new heart right because if I can believe with my old heart,

I have no need for a new heart so No, I disagree. Yeah. No, you you can admit that you're sick and have a corrupt heart so as to Get the surgeon to give you a new heart

Um, so you don't have to get a new heart to confess That your heart's already been made Alive, that's just backwards

Uh, ezekiel 18 even says rid yourself of the sins and get yourselves a new heart Why do you die?

Oh house of is or repent and live So the repentance is the belief faith repentance and faith is what gives you new life

It's what john said i've written these things that you may believe and that by believing you may have life It's by believing that you have life.

It's by believing that your heart is renewed It's by by confessing your your heart is corrupt that you're given a new heart you don't

God doesn't slip in give you a new heart so that you can confess that well your heart's actually new now And it's not corrupt anymore.

And we all know that we still struggle with sin as christians And so if you if you're still struggling with sins, especially early as a baby in christ

You're struggling a lot more with sin at that time because you're still your heart is still dealing with its its corrupt

Self and the addictions and habits that you formed over that time and so we're not given a new heart in order to confess

Um, we confess in order to get a new heart So one more question andrew and then i'll

I promise i'll turn it over back to you. Um He's so kind Back over to me on my show

Hey, i'm a co -host and you brought me on this show, okay um, so how does

Provisionism Differentiate itself from pelagianism or semi -pelagianism

Well, if anybody has watched the show you'll you'll learn what we really think the concept of pelagianism is uh,

Is a myth that was invented by augustine and his accusations all of which one fifth of one of the points of the 24 points that that play just even

Acknowledges something he he agreed with um, and so even Even plagius wasn't a pelagian now

I've heard people like James white say that doesn't really matter What matters is that this is the view that's known for this these these things and i've had many broadcasts explaining

The things that plagianism are known for today are all things that provisionists deny Now there may be some things that are similar to some of the things that pelagian or some of the followers of pelagius taught

Just like there's some similar things between what you may believe and what a hyper calvinist like the westboro baptists believe

Um doesn't mean that you're one of them um, it just means that you might interpret romans 9 for example, similarly to one of their leaders or something like that and so Um, it's just we've got to be careful with the the guilt by association name calling, you know

It's the boogeyman fallacy stuff that guy's look sounds like hitler, you know He said something hitler said once and we see that in the political world.

We see it in the theological world And it's just I think it's a lazy man's approach to having good discussions because calling somebody something that never really existed

Uh in at least in my estimation and I have proof why of why I think that in those broadcasting and articles that we've produced

Um, and that would take a long time and i'm already verbose enough. So i'll stop with that Would that be would that almost be like calling all calvinist determinists when we don't believe in determinism?

Correct. Yeah, that's why I don't say all calvinist or determinists You just use the word determinism to refer to calvinism

Well i'm talking to it when i'm talking to a john piper kind of calvinist who is by his own admission a theistic determinist or bing yong or chris date or James white james white is a superlapsarian theistic determinist now.

He's changed that to decretalist He doesn't like the the title anymore of determinist even though he touted bing young's book who is a self -proclaimed theistic determinist so Calvin was a theistic determinist um philosophically now doesn't mean everybody has to follow calvin's philosophy, but When i'm attacking calvinism qua calvinism as the namesake promoted it and the leading probably leading voice of calvinist today and john piper i'm attacking a philosophical view of theistic determinism

Or attacking it, you know i'm challenging it I don't agree with it and i'm either doing that freely or i'm doing it because god determined me to Which is not just to be a joke.

It is actually just a truism of the deterministic world view so um

Let me ask this and i'm going to tie it into a different question, you know, one of the issues that i've

Talked over with eric hernandez when we talk malinism, right? We've he's been on the show. We've discussed that He is arguing against calvinism against what he thinks is determinism

Uh, but he Malinism has the I think a similar problem to one.

I think you run into With the ideas in malinism for folks who don't know it's the idea that god had all these possible worlds that he knew could could be

Based on human free will everyone's making their own free choices and he's looking at all the possible worlds

Then he selects one And once he selects one the question I had asked eric is and this was a question that uh,

Saitam brunke had uh on on x for you it's it's a similar question

I had for eric is Once we're in this world that god has selected in there, right?

I asked him if we can do anything other Than what

What we had the will to do in that world and he ended up saying no Which actually makes him the more determinist than I would be.

So the question that sai asked is Are you free? To do other than what god knows for certain you will do so it's the same

The same thinking so you believe god knows what you're going to do tomorrow, right? Again, we're getting back into the philosophy of things and I think eric is more equipped to to handle those things, but I have no problem

The way william lang craig has answered that is there's sometimes a conflation between certainty and necessity

I have no problem saying that we can't do other than what he knows for certain But that doesn't mean we're necessitated by the one who knows it.

In other words He knows what we're going to libertarianly freely choose to do How he does that is

I don't know that any more so than how I know how he created something from nothing I appeal to mystery as to how god where god bases his ability to know

What I will freely choose to do but I still maintain it is my libertarianly free choice and so it is certain

That I will do what he knows I will do But it's not because it's determined for me to do it i .e

Decretalism i .e the sovereign decree is ultimately what determined what I will do is that he knows what

I will choose to do And so that that's again. That's what all the philosophers get into there's been tomes written on the subject

And i'll recommend people to go to the philosophers to read through the tomes I'm a theologian by trade and I don't think the bible specifically answers that question.

I do think that the bible prevents or or Discludes some of the the claims of the calvinist reading of the verses in question

And that's where I usually contend with calvinist is on the reading of the text not on the philosophical objections

Okay, I want to go a different angle and come back to this Because I think this might be an easier way to answer this um

So so let's talk let's talk inspiration of scripture So we're going to jettison soteriology go to somewhere else and i'm doing this because I want to first build some common ground sure um

We have the book of ephesians If I was to ask you who wrote ephesians, what would your answer be?

Um paul by the inspiration of the spirit Okay, most people say paul and then I say are you sure and then they say what the god i've heard the video of i've heard

The video of macarthur. Yeah saying that so, okay when we say

You know by inspiration Uh, you know a term that we'd often use is superintending.

Are you familiar with that that term in right? Yes do you So let me ask you make sure instead of me giving a definition

Let me see if your definition what it will be your definition of when you say You know through the inspiration.

What's your definite inspiration? What's your definition of um? Oh Did someone oh

Drew dropped that I saw someone pop out. Sorry. Um unexpectedly dropped And it comes back in.

So what's your definition of inspiration? What's your definition of superintending? Um I would have to study up on what you're talking about with superintending um, but with inspiration

You know god breathed. I mean, I think god is bringing uh to bringing about the testimony of the men who wrote in scripture um,

I do think and I could get in trouble for this by some camps I know but I think that just like peter is flawed

There can be flaws in the manuscripts that we have there's obviously flaws in the manuscripts that we have

Usually the inerrancy question is about the autographs that we don't have But nobody debates is even the most conservative of folks

Tries to say that we don't have any scribal errors or anything of that sort But I do I have no problem calling scripture.

God breathed. It's from god and it's to point us to him It's not to be worshipped itself That's probably one of the reasons that he chose men that have flaws like peter and paul and others

And he chose uh the means by which to communicate with himself through flawed means

Like the non -autographed versions of an inspired text because otherwise bibliology which still happens

Um people venerate the pages of the scrolls instead of pointing to the one that they are to testify to But um,

I do that believe they're from god now the superintending I I'm assuming you would tell me what you're thinking about this but superintending meaning more of a governance of god over all things and uh working

Together that which he desires to come to pass with regard to the communication of his truth

Yeah, and and i'm going to clarify just I don't want anyone to misunderstand and then misrepresent what you you said there

But so we all We acknowledge that we we don't know that we have any autographs original writings from say ephesians paul's original letter of ephesians

We don't know that we have that I say we don't know because it could be cataloged somewhere There's certain things if it has verses we know it's not original because the originals didn't have verses right?

Same with punctuation things like that but The those that were copies of copies of copies of copies that's when

Layton is saying that they can have Scribal mistakes and and and errors in them.

That is what he is referring to not the original writings, so I just I just Want to be uh clear with that so that no one

Thinks he said that the bible He has got errors in it So But i'll say this and again may get me in trouble but we don't have the autographs we can't know for certain

Even if we found an autograph of paul's letter and we found An error in it somehow and again,

I don't know how you define what an error is But we found something he misspelled or something Like that, even if it's a minor error like that or he gave a wrong date or reference to something

It would not shock my faith. It would not hurt my faith whatsoever because my faith is not in the scripture

Just like it's not in peter or mary. Okay. It's in the one in which that scripture testifies and so the

Being god breathed or from god doesn't require in my estimation this concept of some inerrant

Text that exists out there or not or it's been destroyed and it's not really there I think there's a lot of time wasted and a lot of effort spent

On something that makes no difference to the faith of those who believe and trust in christ and have the indwelling spirit

That's just my opinion on it again. Some ultra conservatives may write me over the coals for that But that's just where I stand on it.

See we're talking about something else besides calvinism here get me in trouble Yeah, well um so the idea of the superintending is the the point of it being that we both agree paul wrote ephesians and yet we both agree that God wrote him who who who gets the credit?

I mean could could paul have written ephesians on his own Well, I don't think we can breathe on our own you know, he's he sustains our life and every breath and everything about who we are so It depends on what you mean by doing something on their own um but no,

I I don't think that paul could have done what he did on his own and and I certainly don't think he Would have been able to have the knowledge and wisdom and understanding that he's that's reflected in his letters apart from the indwelling the spirit ephesians 3 gets into this he even says

The the jesus revealed these things to me so that I could write about them and that by reading it you can understand it too

So that's how we understand what the spirit is revealing by reading the words He's inspired through the prophets and the apostles and so it's obviously something he got as a gift of grace by god to give him those words okay, so But he would not you agree.

He would not be able to write god's word Without god working through him to do that, right?

Of course. Yeah. Yeah And that's really the doctrine of superintending right that god works through the human author

So that even though they they selected their words, right? I mean you can anyone reading and studying the scriptures can see that paul's style is very different than say john's style

I mean, it's a clear difference. Paul is point upon point upon point. John has a style where he's kind of like circular

He just keeps circling around a couple of ideas and comes back to him and back to him, you know

So their styles are different. They write things that are personal paul's gonna say hey bring my cloak

It's going to be cold this winter, right? There's personal things of personal choices of the words and yet we see that it's god's word that god that every dot and till you know every letter and and Dot of the eye is exactly as god intended it to be that's what we mean by inspired right god spoken

And so The idea of superintending would be that god works through the human author that even though paul writes and chooses his words

It's exactly as god intended it to be Would would you agree with that?

I don't think that I mean no not necessarily Um, and that's that I mean everything that happens in the world

According to the theistic determinist whether that's you or not. I'm not saying Everything is as god intended it and and I think that our world has errors and has problems

But yet god's message is made abundantly clear to be sufficient to do what it's meant to do

And so I don't need every jot and tittle to be perfect in order to believe that the bible is doing what it's meant to do

And accomplishing the purpose for which god sent it. That's just again my perspective on that. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean just Let's limit it to right now for inspiration just for for this argument because I want to build on this but with the writing of scripture

Could you agree that? what paul wrote was god working through him to write that so that Though he chose words

We call it god's word because it's It may be paul choosing the words But god is working through him in that choice so that every word is exactly as god wants it to be

Yes Yeah, the concepts and ideas that he's communicating through his servants are true accurate profitable for Rebuke correcting and training and righteousness and so all the things that the bible says about itself.

I would confirm um, and I prefer to use the biblical terms than the ones that are been made up since then because oftentimes those words that man

Makes up like inherent inerrant get used as battle axes to beat each christians over the head and form new groups

And I think that's so unnecessary. No, no, I know you're not i'm not saying that to you I'm, just saying generally speaking that that has become a a battle that In my estimation never needed to happen among believers.

Yeah, I mean look you know before we went on we were joking about you know, my message at the

Why calvinism conference when I did part of my message was the calvinism of arminius and we talked about Arminius's history and how you have people because they're fighting

They're and I don't want maybe fighting's not a good word because they're contending over a view they tend to though where You know, you could have you know arminius and um

I just forgot his name again calvin Beza sorry, you know arminius and beza may not have been too far off at the beginning of their battles

But as they kept battling they kept pulling further and further apart And you know,

I think that they were far closer in the early years of arminius's ministry

And for folks who don't I mean you can go on. Um, if you go on Just search for history of calvinism andrew rapport you could probably find the video or you'll find my podcast where I played that and and you can hear the whole thing, but the reality is that both of those men

There was never a debate really between calvin and arminius because arminius was four years old when calvin died.

Yeah Yeah, I mean there there was no, you know, arminius would be pretty good to be debating as a four -year -old.

I'm just saying but The the issue is that I and I think layton

And and I think you know, I I don't mean this in disrespect, but it's it's my evaluation

You've been fighting against calvinism so long that you're you're always Attacking that and and what you you what you see is the terminism, which

I don't think is what calvinism is um, and and because of that whenever we get in discussions, it's like you're always

Going against that instead of what we're we're discussing, right? So I want i'm trying to find middle ground here

To see to help you To to see where I think most calvinists are at So that it's when because This so this is a kind of a rabbit trail now but you know,

I my and I think i've shared this with you privately, but you know, my my I guess greatest concern with soteriology 101 you know, really it's it's because what it does is there's so many people that are

Going after calvinism when they don't understand it Right that it becomes

It becomes crossing the division where everyone's just separating so much that we can't realize wait there

Where do we end up agreeing because I often find that people that hate calvinism actually would agree with calvinism

They just disagree with their definitions of it. That's why i'm going to this because You know respond to that charge

Yeah, yeah because if I don't let you do it now you're going to do it for four hours on a show Touche touche that's possible.

Um One you you keep using superlatives like always these kinds of things.

Oh, okay one i'm I have acknowledged there are some Libertarian people who affirm libertarian freedom like greg cokel

Um crisp there's um, I I think the other one I had j .i. Packer There's several other non -theistic determinists calvinists out there that i've confronted on the show that we've talked through on the show

I cannot tell you how many times i've said calvinism is not a monolithic group Um, i'm responding to different types of calvinists in different programs

And if you've only seen one or two here or there and you've only seen me interact with james white Especially who happens to be a super lapsarian theistic determinist decretalist, whatever he wants to be called

Um john piper, which is the most popular form of the calvinism that we know today Um, then then you're hearing me contend with that particular type of calvinist

Um, and so I I can't be responsible for which programs you've seen and haven't seen I can send you the links to the ones

Where i've confronted and talked with people if you and that guy on live had the same critique He kept you keep treating us like we're all determinists and i'm just like well

Actually, I have this show in the show in this show where I differentiate that that just happens to be the most popular form of calvinism

Um, and so that's that's what i'm seeking to confront now as far as moving my position

I can't think of a single Doctrine or theology that I hold to differently than when

I started this in 2015 um now maybe those things have become more uh in tune or more

Prolific in certain points of it or whatever, but I I don't think i've drifted Any further to one side or another

I still don't I don't you know, I white keeps saying it It's just a matter of time before he becomes an open theist

I i've not ever affirmed open theism and yet people call me open theist all the time because You know,

I have friends on that are open theist. And so they just assume I must be one or become me one Um, or other, you know, there's others that all all the armenians become liberals and all these kinds of things

Oh, well, there's a lot of calvinistic groups that become liberal too that That's just those kinds of arguments don't just don't hold any water with me and Um, and so i'm just pushing back and and on the definition thing you you've

I would love for you to tell me that that opening segment there when I gave those three major points of what a base

Level calvinist would hold to you. I don't think you've told us Which one of those you disagreed with and why yeah, well sure and and I think like when i'm saying this

Right. I'm talking about the superintending inspiration and you're responding to determinism when that when the topic

Was Well, you asked me if it was as as god intended it and I was just pointing out that on your view

Or at least on the the swath or the normal calvinistic Calvinistic perspective of calvin everything is as god intended to be and that's just a fact of the matter

And so I was pointing out the difference between what you're holding to And what i'm holding to with regard to that question

And so someone who has a different worldview about how god works in a fallen world Who prays let your will be done here on earth as it is in heaven because we don't believe it's always being done here

On earth as in heaven on our view Calvinists do typically and so when you ask about if if the original language or the original autographs were as god intended

I don't have any problem with saying there could have been A spelling error or this out of the other or jot or tittle that wasn't crossed or whatever

I have no problems saying that that could have happened. It wouldn't shake my faith whatsoever because god It's not always as god intended on my view where it is on Your view typically and so that that's i'm not trying to make it about calvinism

I'm trying to make it more about the our our view of god and how he works within time and space yeah, see and I I would disagree that the majority of of Uh calvinists are determinists.

Let me let me find there was someone that asked the question we got more questions popping up on this than So it's harder to find.

Okay. Here we go. Jordan had asked can can they explain how calvinism differs from determinism?

and so this this may be uh to answer this question, um Is a way for me explain where I differ from what how you define calvinism?

Uh, so Determinism would be that god determines everything in other words

He forces us we have no choice. We don't have a free will So if I was to smack layton across the face,

I I wouldn't But if I did it's because god made me do it That would be determinism that god is

Not just orchestrating intending but actually

Determining everything Let me defend the determinists like jing yong and date. They would not affirm what you just said that that is what determinism is

Um, they they would be more in the compatibilistic camp that god which by the way compatibilism is just as deterministic is

Hard determinism what compatibilism is saying is that determinism theistic determinism is compatible with Man's responsibility so men are culpable even though god is ultimately determining what they do

And they appeal to mystery as to how that is at least calvin does and many leading philosophical calvinists do have to appeal to mystery on Why we're held accountable or how it is that we are justly held culpable for what god ultimately determines to do

But he does this through secondary causes and contingencies and all those kinds of things I think there's some inconsistencies with compatibilism for reasons.

I explain more broadly on my show but I don't think any determinants theistic determinants out there would say god's forcing you to Stab somebody or kill, you know kill them or something like that in in that manner

In fact, it would be uh in the compatibilistic side is you would be doing you're free to do what you want to do

So you would be wanting to slap me um, but the reason you want to slap me ultimately is because god has

Determined decreed the circumstances and your nature such that you would never choose to do otherwise

And so that that that is classical theistic determinism. Otherwise known as compatibilism for the most part.

Now, there are hard determinists um, who Typically, you know in like in the atheistic world, especially naturalistic determinist

And so if that's what you have in mind, then obviously Chris day bing yong other theistic determinist would wholly reject that because they believe in a personal god who has

Decreed the things that come to pass Um, but nevertheless, I don't know that we need to get again.

We're going down the philosophical train well, we are we are but I mean and this is why I I go to the idea superintending with inspiration because I think it's usually where I could find common ground with folks because There what you have is you have paul

Choosing his words He is not God isn't I don't You know, we don't believe that in dictation that god is forcing.

It's not god Determining like he's saying, you know, this is the you'll write this this this this

You can see they have different styles. They have different word choices. You could see you can see the education from a a paul

Okay, I get the point you're making i'm following which it's the same point that macarthur was making in that video when he asked

Who wrote the the book of ephesians? um, and I have a video out on that book, but i'm not sure

I I don't think i've seen the video you're referring to just so if you're there's a Todd friel does the same thing where you ask who wrote this who wrote this and they and they're using the inspiration of scripture as kind of their model for how god brings about Salvation or brings about things but yet men are still ultimately doing those things

And my point is we do believe god determines some things the the inspiration of scripture would be an example of that So if you make it to where god's bringing about all things like the confessions of calvinists say then that undermines things like the scripture or the crucifixion because we do believe god is

Intervening within time and space to bring about the crucifixion for the redemption of men And we do believe he he's intervening to bring about the inspiration of scripture

But what about my book was it inspired by god was it brought about by inspiration? Everyone would say no obviously not but yet on theistic determinism not necessarily your view but on theistic determinism

God determined decreed whatsoever comes to pass which includes my book and every jot and tittle that I wrote in here

It's exactly written as god intended it to be written. So I think that undermines the inspiration of the scripture if one holds to a truly theistic deterministic perspective of god determining whatsoever comes to pass

And I would and that's where I didn't say that. I don't I think the where you say That's the majority of calvinists.

I I don't think that is And I think that's a majority if it's calvin's view and piper's view then even if i'm just confronting those two men and them alone following edwards

Then it you can you the best you can do is accuse me of attacking the wrong kind of calvinist But even then

I have the j .i. packer video I've got the greg cokel video and and even guests that have come on that are That are affirming of libertarian free will while still holding to a calvinistic sociology.

So Even though they're in my opinion based upon the statistics that I see They're a lot less popular at least in the mainstream than the theistic determinists like that follow edwards as does piper but I mean that that's the best accusation you could bring is just that you're not confronting my kind of calvinist and I am right now

We're having a discussion right now. So yeah confronting a non theistic determinist calvinist yeah, so so, um

I just I just looked at time this this is the thing you and I get into discussions get into rabbit trails and time goes quickly

You know So much so little time notice folks. I didn't use matt's line so much heresy so little time

But um Let me do this really quickly because if I don't time's gonna Run out on us

Let me just say look folks. I know this is lively. I know some of it's getting late for some folks and maybe

May I think what what layton probably needs because you know, he's looks like an old man.

He's getting tired He probably needs a good cup of coffee to continue this conversation and what he should get is a good cup of squirrelly joe's coffee, which

I I think he might have had if he had coffee at the conference there and in february I'm a coffee snob too and I liked his coffee.

So he's got some good coffee So what you should do is you should go to striving for training .org slash coffee

And get yourself a good cup of coffee Actually, my my daughter was in town and one of the things she she was staying over and one thing she said is

Do you have that squirrelly joe's coffee? I said, of course I do and so she was very happy to be

Well, we went through an entire bag of coffee. I think something happened I went through coffee a lot faster than I usually do in the house

So, uh, they are a sponsor here. If you want to get yourself a great cup of coffee. Remember if it is your first order

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I should have done that um, but uh Get get yourself a good order of coffee if you want for your church.

Hey get some squirrelly joe's coffee for the church Um there it's great cups great coffee from he gets the beans from different places

So there's a lot of different flavors to it that you can have so if you are a coffee snob like Layton is you can figure out which one do you like do you like the brazilian beans or the

Ones I think he's got from ecuador, you know, you figure out which which flavor you like There's a lot of different ones and you can determine whether you know, he's got cool names for his his

Coffee like a bag of kindness or honesty you can decide whether when you're drinking honesty, it's because you already

Have honesty or need honesty. I'm just gonna say um You could decide whether it's you need it or you already have these different characteristics, but uh

If you want to get yourself some coffee go to get to from squirrelly joe's go to striving for attorney .org

coffee and do us a favor When you reorder go to that same link so that he knows

That you heard about him from us so that he will continue to sponsor us here on the show Now for others when hearing layton

I I understand that you may want to go to sleep. And so for that we have a solution as well

You can get yourself a good my pillow and that will put you so at least listening to layton's

Nice tone of voice as you as he continues to speak and you go into la la land and you're getting ready to Sleep a good night's sleep at least do it with a good my pillow and the way to do that is go to mypillow .com

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Not just with layton's voice, but a good pillow to put you to sleep for the night I I mean I like to listen to layton's voice to fall asleep, but no, um, glad to help you

Yeah Um I I do have there is a listener and if she's listening she'll get a good kick

But there there's a listener. She she tells she had called the ministry and let me know that uh

She has to listen uh all night long To either matt slick or myself

And she's got our podcast going in a loop And I said, oh that's so sweet like but I mean, you're not really listening because you're sleeping.

She goes. Oh, it's not for me My dog won't stay quiet unless she's listening to one of your two voices

She's like my dog will bark all night unless she's listening. That's hilarious. I'm like, gee, I don't know if that's a good thing

I'm not sure if that was a compliment or not It depends on how you take it.

It's I guess Yeah, absolutely So, yeah, so I mean as we were discussing before The idea that I have is that god can work through the the writers of scripture

In such a way that they do have a a choice When we talk free will

I I don't See, well, let me ask it this way. Um We when we talk about the will um

Drew is backstage calling saying andrew is the dog whisperer. He doesn't he's He's saying that in the private chat uh, so um

When when I talk about free will I I would argue that Until we know christ, we don't have a free will we have a will

We have a will that's enslaved to sin Right. So I agree. I agree with that.

Okay so when we talk about We we talk about the the curse of sin.

I mean So do you believe that our intellect was affected by the fall? Sure Okay our emotions as well sure

And then so our will our volition was that affected as well? Would would you? Yeah, don't have any problem with any of that.

Okay, so so when When I talk I I and i'm just trying to be a little bit more precise with it

Because a free will means we are free to choose You know apart from any like when we have a sin nature we are going to be that that Choice is affected by the curse of sin uh as You know romans would say, uh chapter five chapter six.

I'm forgetting which one right now Um that we're slaves to sin Prior to christ holy spirit indwelling us now.

I would say we have a free will so So if I I I would say we have a will um, and I think that that will

Uh, you know paul can write something and You're seeing his will in action you're seeing his choice of words

But god can work through that that's not forcing it And so Again, I I understand that that calvatists don't like the term like putting a gun to the head

Or taking you physically forcing you to do something But the what what the compatibles will usually argue is that you're free as long as you're doing what you want to do

You're acting in accordance with your own desires But what's behind the scenes of that At least the things that calvinists don't often talk about Is the reason why you want those things and you either want to reject god because that's the way you were born in your corrupt nature

Or because god rebirthed you through a unilateral work of divine grace causing you to want to so he changes your desires

So he's in control of the desire you're born with and he's also in control of the desire you have at new birth

So the desire you have after your first birth is just as much under the control of the sovereign decree of god as the

Desire you have under the second birth and so god is determining the circumstances and the desires

Of your heart thus determining which choice you make freely in the sense that you're making it according to your desires

That is the heart of compatibilism as I understand it and as we've played it from videos of compatibilist teaching that view so it's not

Physical force it is a concept of changing one's Desires and the circumstances so as to ensure what god has decreed to happen will come to pass that is what's behind theistic determinism i .e

calvinistic compatibilism now and again, I I don't think that the bible teaches that I think that the bible teaches that we're born with a conscience and ability to choose right

And wrong we can grow hardened we can trade the truth of god in for lies He won't contend with men forever.

So eventually our consciences can become seared We can be cut off and even in judgment god can harden our hearts in order to accomplish purpose through our rebellion and our

Horrible behaviors god can bring about a purpose through our evil choices And so I don't believe this concept that you're born

In a condition where you can't respond positively to the things of god One of the reasons that most people who can become christians do so before their 18th birthday

Why because children are humble and moldable whereas adults don't tend to be that way They tend to be stuck in the mud and uh old wine skins that can't take the new wine so to speak because they already have their system of thought and their way of thinking

And and young people tend to be more moldable and willing to listen and willing to learn And so sin corrupts you the more you live in it.

The more you ignore the voice of god The more you become hardened so you're not born already hardened. You can become that way and so the warnings in scripture are often to people who've already become the old wine skins a lot of the verses that are used

As proof texts by calvinists for the nature of man are actually about the nature of hardened men About those who've become cut off in their rebellion because they've refused to listen to the father for generations

And so that's where we part ways I have no problem saying that we're inclined towards sin that we are wills are affected all the things you just said slaves to sin

Can still recognize they're enslaved And so even like an addict a drug addict or an alcoholic can recognize they can't stop

Drinking on their own But that doesn't mean they can't recognize that fact Humble themselves and check into a rehab facility when it's offered to them and that's exactly the same situation.

I'm saying we're in yes We're sinaholics. We are addicted to sin But we can see that Given the gospel given the light of the truth of the commandments of god the law of god

Which is a schoolmaster a teacher telling us where we're we're fallen And we can respond to it.

That's why we're held responsible to The revelation of god even as fallen men because we can actually respond to it

Whereas in the calvinistic view because of the nature you were born in you can't positively respond to it And I just don't think that's established in the bible.

I think that's a systematic being read into the text Okay, let me let me i'm gonna assume. This is someone who is following with your ministry, uh, peter fox just from the

And if not, it's just he's disagreeing. He's a follower. Yeah. Yeah, I recognize peter

My my definition of free will he said no that's not a free will no one uses that definition except calvinists who want to misrepresent the non -calvinistic view

So peter the reason I I say I define free will the way I do is actually referring to how we were

We refer to god being free and the fact that We cannot

Do anything outside of our nature so our nature prior to christ is sin

And and therefore it's it's not free in the sense that we can freely choose anything

When the holy spirit indwells us now we can choose between Glorifying god or or not we can we can make that choice.

I would say before that we're enslaved to sin And so that's the the difference that i'm making with the idea of free

Will because we agree we everyone agrees we have a will Right, so let me let me push on you a little bit andrew

Yeah, you know you talk about the regenerate man having a free will now So when you're tempted or when i'm tempted any any let's just say regenerate man is tempted

Okay, we'll use peter since peter was on peter's a regenerate man And he's tempted and he falls into temptation

Could he have freely done otherwise Could he not have lied when he lied?

Because he's he has a free will because he could have stood up under the temptation. So Did but did god decree for him to lie?

Did god know in eternity past that he would lie? Okay, all those same philosophical questions come for the believer.

Yeah, and this is the last person this is where when I hear you speak with calvinism about calvinism,

I I struggle with it is because when when people say decree They don't they're not saying god forced peter to lie

I didn't say forced Okay, I said decreed for a reason. Yeah, so the idea of decree means god knew it would happen if he's omniscient

I believe that which we already your provision is so far so far. That's provisionism. No, that's calvinism.

That's the whole point That's why I say Calvinism calvin did not teach that and I can prove it to you if you would like for me to bring up the quotes

The the reason peter did that on calvinism is because god decreed it

Not because god knew he would do it and allowed it to happen. That's molinism. That's that's our philosophical answer

God knew it would happen and allowed it. He did not intervene to stop it. That is arminianism and that is provisionism

That is philosophically that is not calvinism. Well, at least not according to the leading proponents of calvinism

I would disagree with what you just said as far as molinism molinism is absolute determinism

That that's it doesn't deny libertarian. It doesn't deny libertarian free will in other words peter could have peter could have resisted

That temptation the reason he didn't is because he chose to go. Otherwise not because god chose that world he

Peter made that choice freely because god chose that world once god chose that world He peter would not be able to do anything other than what he freely chose to do in that world

Right and again, you can talk to you can talk to eric about this who's an actual molinus But what i'm saying to you is that the reason peter did it

Is because of those things that peter is in control over not because of something god decreed for him to do

Yeah, so the the thing is that's the difference in in time Right peter is is making well, let's not pick on peter because I don't like picking on so in time me

I I do something To me, it's a chronological issue The fact that god knew it would happen

It is it's he's outside of time all this is happening he knows it

It's the the way And you're saying that what is but what is he knowing andrew?

Is he knowing what he did he decreed for peter to do or is he knowing what peter freely libertarianly freely chose to do?

What's he and i'm going to argue that the issue is It's sort of a

A mischaracterization or a fallacy of of categories because When you say well, let me ask it this way, let me better ask you what do you believe calvinist mean by decree

I think the decree or what's referred to as theistic determinism is is the sovereign unchangeable decree even on one

Episode when he was confronting some white was confronting some higher calvinists. They were even talking about a script

That this is what god has ultimately determined will come to pass And he has decreed it happens because he decreed it to come to pass.

He he wrote it in a sense He's he's declared it to be and all things that he's declared to be decreed to be will come to pass as he's

Declared it as he's decreed it and so The the concept of god knowing somebody will freely choose to do something and not preventing it

Is an armenian Molinistic libertarian concept not one of calvin or jonathan edwards or piper or the leading proponents of Compatibilistic calvinism

I'll pull i'll have to pull up my quotes from calvin from that conference. Uh, because John calvin would disagree with that but because I mean if you listen to this is why

I keep saying the word forced because What you just described is You described that god

God has a plan And then man has to follow that versus god knowing what man is going to do

In his omniscience That's my view That's why

I always say you don't understand calvinism But that has nothing to do with the three points

I mentioned earlier this gets in the philosophical side Not the theological side the three points that I brought up earlier that you said was a mischaracterization of calvinism

Have to do with total inability unconditional election and irresistible grace, which I think I was very fair in describing

This is a philosophical side of things and and I can prove that you're mistaken with regard to the the philosophies of jonathan edwards

Um, and not everybody believes every calvinist believes greg cokel does not like what edward says about determinism

I'm telling you there are calvinists who claim theological calvinism, but deny the compatibilism that underpins it

But piper is a is an edwardian calvinist. He follows edwards by his own admission a

White falls more in that same line of thought. Um, and so I I don't know what else to tell you but yeah, if you think that god's knowing in the future and just permitting it to happen and not intervening is

Determinism or are not determinism is calvinism then i'm sorry. You don't understand calvinism.

I actually understand it better than you do Well, I know I know you always say that I I know you say that and yet but but I have the receipts

I have the receipt as you're gonna know everyone you say Has like you mentioned james white and yet he tells he can't has

Continuously said I don't want to say always So I don't want to use those but he continuously tells says on his show that you're misrepresenting his position

So who knows his position better you or him? Well, he claims to be one who believes like edwards and piper.

He doesn't he doesn't deny that Um, and so i'm not sure why he he's a decretalist and so which is just a synonym for determinist, uh,

Seistic determinist let's let's talk irresistible grace because we're gonna run out of time So i'll do deal with just that one and I I may have to have you back on we got

You know drew is backstage. He's got 25 things starred here I got a dozen and a half questions that people gave me.

So maybe what we do is I have you come in and we just I was gonna say rapid fire.

I don't know if you're capable of that. Okay, but Hey, I did 30. I did Watch me and braxton

We go through 30 proof texts and I keep each one of them under three minutes because he asked me to so I can do it So you're saying

I should have said your your answers have been less than five minutes, okay Probably yes, maybe we could do it

Maybe we can have you back and try to get through a lot of the questions there's there's one I definitely want to make sure I get to before we end but um

You know with irresistible grace the reason I went to the doctrine of inspiration I would follow that up with the doctrine of sanctification

Uh, if you end up this february coming to the open air theology conference, that'll be the topic but I would argue the same thing

As we have a a free will as believers to do good works And yet scripture says it's god who does those good works, right?

So that's the doctrine of superintending again. We choose to do good And that's exactly as god intended it to be

Well, of course when we do good it's as god intended because he intends us to do good But when we choose not to do good, it's not because god intended it.

So that's the difference Yeah, he intends and wants us to do good, but we have the freedom to resist or suppress the truth

And when we do say we're not doing as god intended we're doing against what god intended And that is what is the doctrine that you?

disagree with as far as Um, oh you're bringing that up. Okay. I was like why is latent flowers in here twice?

Okay, look look look here's just three quotes from calvin. Okay from the institutes

We maintain that by his providence god's providence not heaven and earth and in eminent creatures only

But only but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course, which he has destined

He also wrote the hand of god rules the interior Affections no less than it supersedes super intends the word you were using super intends external actions

Nor would god have affected by the hand of man what he decreed unless he worked in their hearts to make them will

Before they acted so he's not making them do it physically He's making them will to do what they do freely in other in other words doing as they as under the compatibilistic framework freely

Is according to their will to according to their desire and god is ultimately making them will what they will

Men do nothing save the secret and the instigation of god to do Not discuss they do not discuss or deliberate or anything

But what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction

I don't know how calvin could be any more clear than this Edwards is even more clear because he debates and goes over this with so many people and piper is also very clear in well, he has some contradictory stuff as well, but Um, my point is is that he is teaching

Theistic determinism compatibilistic determinism and And what you're saying is that that's not calvinistic

Yet the namesake and the leading proponents of calvinism are promoting this perspective It sounds like you need to stand with me to reject what the calvinists are teaching out there well, no what what i'm saying is that you're you're arguing as if With the doctrine superintending we only take one side of that coin and not both

As if we're saying well, it's only god's word and paul had nothing to do with it and that's not what we would argue

Right, i'm not well And that's why I go to the superintending because that's what irresistible grace would be it is god working through someone

So so I would argue that do they choose? Yes, they're they're going to call out to god, but they're not doing that on their own

They cannot doing it on their own. We we say they're doing it in response to god You John, calvin would say they're doing it in response to the effectual grace of god, which always accomplishes what god intends it to meaning

That if god intends you to believe then you will certainly believe because he's not forcing you physically

But he's changing your nature and your desire such that you will certainly do what he's willed you to do

So you're but it's not really your will under our in my estimation. It's his will for you to will

But is he he's not forcing you Well, if you define force in the broader sense, you could say force, but he's not forcing you physically.

It's a moral issue Because of your moral condition from birth according to the calvinistic perspective

You will always say no to the gospel unless you were picked before you were born And irresistibly given a new nature causing your desires to change where you certainly will believe in him

That's the first three points I brought up in the first of the thing which you said wasn't a good representation of calvinism And and still have not told me why

I just did because I keep I keep telling you why right because what you're saying and late

I love you, but You know so many people have told you you're misrepresenting calvinism You're misrepresenting what they believe and then you you're saying no, that's wrong

I'm telling you that this is you know, you're taking some Some quotes from calvin and yet there's other quotes from calvin that give the other side of it.

You're just not using those Right. No, we actually we have shows where we play things that seem contradictory

Because calvin will often say things as does piper. We'll have a videos coming up shortly matter of fact Mike winger just sent me a video of john piper talking about One becoming hardened and macarthur has the same kind of video where people becoming hardened

And they grow into a place where now they can't repent. They've they've become so uh Hardened in their in their sin that they now they can't repent as if they could have at some point where on calvinism

Unless you're elect and regenerated There was never a time in your life You could have repented and so to say that before they became hardened and closed their eyes and became in this in this hardened state that they could have repented is

Contradictory to the to the t of the entire tulip systematic, which is you're born with that incapacity by nature

And and this is why we keep pushing back on calvinists because yes, we understand they're saying both things They often preach like quote unquote armenians, but it's not consistent with the claims of their system

But yet during the show you agreed with the t of tulip with total depravity No, I said those were the three points that no define what calvinism is and where I disagreed with them

But do you just do you disagree with total depravity? As calvinists teach it.

Yes. Okay, so you you disagree with what you said earlier that the the Intellect the emotion and the will were affected by the fall

Because that's how they are affected. No how they're affected andrew You're are you calvinist assume they're affected by making them totally unable to respond positively to the gospel

I think they're affected by making them have the inclinations and desires to go away from god and they're under temptation

But they still have the capacity to respond to the appeal of the gospel calling them to repentance So just because somebody's an alcoholic doesn't mean they can't confess that fact to get help

Just somebody just because somebody's addicted to sin doesn't mean they can't confess that fact When they're offered help through the gospel calling them to repentance so we both that we both believe there's an effect

The calvinists just take it beyond that to say the effect is total inability Whereas we say that the effect is an inclination towards sin and selfishness and the fallen nature

But that's what the gospel has come for it's come to call us from our sinful Natural ways fleshly ways to repent of that humble ourselves so as to receive his grace

So um You know peter peter's saying and I got someone backstage that wants to come in i'm going to try to make that short

But peter's saying wow, that's that's disingenuous to say layton Is saying that we are affected means?

He accepts t the reason I say that peter is because that's what total depravity means when you look at the arguments when you when you look at the arguments in You know because remember calvinism didn't start with calvin

Calvin was okay. Calvinism is is if we both walk out in the sun if we both walk out in the sun

And we look up at it and you're immediately blinded by the sun And when I look up at it, it blurs my vision we can both say it

It hurt us it affected us. How did it affect you? It blinded you. How did it affect me?

It made my vision blurred affected both of us. So the question is not whether it affects us. It's how does it affect us?

And I think the bible teaches that people who are lost Are still responsible. Okay, they're still able to respond to the life -giving truth calling them from their lostness

But that was not the arguments that came about which developed that the doctrine known as total depravity

The argument being argued was that the will was not affected by the curse

That was the argument being made at the time that total depravity Was developed so we we can't rip it out.

Arminius certainly didn't believe that No, arminius didn't well remember arminius was arguing for calvinism in the early years

Well arminius even in his later years never never taught and believed that we weren't affected by the fall

No, even pelagius didn't teach that we weren't affected by the fall There's no scholar in history that i'm aware of that teaches or ever taught that we weren't affected by the fall

There's different degrees in which we believe they're affected even within the reform camp zwingli disagreed with luther luther

Accused wingley of being a pelagian And that's because they had a different view of inherited guilt

And so these kinds of accusation have gone back and forth since the beginning of history with these things saying that we're affected

It's not proof of inability the reason they have is because I I think so much of it is

People are and this is what we're having right here is You know the

You having a definition that you're applying to calvinists that so many calvinists say that's not our position

And you're saying well, you don't understand calvinism that you understand calvinism better than people that hold to the position

I'm going to we have 10 minutes How many times how many times on my broadcast peter can attest to this or any listener can attest to this have

I said? There are different forms and heights and it's not monolithic. There are all different kinds of calvins

That's why i've had cocoa. I mean address cocoa. I've addressed j .i. Packer I've addressed all these different people because they're different forms of calvinism.

I don't think that the edward and John from jonathan edwards and piper views are necessarily consistent nor Are are the views that are held by the lower or moderate types of calvinists that we've confronted

But I am I am very much more fair to the calvinist brothers in representing them than they are in representing us

I can assure you of that and i've got proof of that um If calvinists would do the leading calvinists at least the ones that people know of and hear out there

Would do a tenth of the job I have done and letting us speak with our own words and not strawmanning and characterizing mischaracterizing us

I'm accused of that maybe because they hear one clip where i'm confronting a high calvinist And they just assume that i'm thinking i'm just addressing all calvinists as just one monolithic group

Even though over and over I should get caleb to go Look for them all and just put them in a line of just a four hour sequence of me saying well

This particular calvinist holds this not all calvinists believe this but of course every time I give that caveat I just wish it was in a line so that I could send it to folks like you

Who keep saying I am not representing calvinism correctly when I always give the caveat over and over and over again

I I know you give the caveat but then what you What you describe is often not what

Okay, so just because of time I know you want to go right at the top of the hour so Uh, I mean,

I have to yeah, sorry about that So and and i'm gonna i'm gonna do something that's gonna be hard for him as well

I'm, i'm gonna bring side tim bruncate and he he he was here. So hi si Five minutes

I'm, sorry, but no that's because that's probably One final question for late That's probably good because i'm here against my better judgment.

Can you hear me? Okay. Yep Okay, great. Um, i'm just curious that layton. Hello, by the way, we have engaged each other

He went through my website the tulip test on his uh podcast a number of years ago But just off the bat, i'm just wondering how much percentage wise how much credit does jesus christ get for your salvation?

100 absolutely. Okay 100 okay now to so those who are lost

Um, why are they lost then if christ gets 100 of the credit? Like are they damned because of themselves or because christ has not saved them?

For the sake of time I do have an article At sociology 101 that actually gets into that very question. I'm not trying to dismiss your question

I'm, just saying if people want to go deeper there is a An article that gets deep into this question about the percentages

I think we're responsible for our choices Meaning I think that we could have chosen to reject or accept the gospel

And I don't believe that in order for him to get 100 credit for the gift He gives that it has to be given effectually

In other words, I think he should get 100 credit for the gift He gives even if i'm responsible to be the one who receives it or rejects it

And in any other situation if you give a gift to your kid and he squandered it or threw it in the trash Do you get any less percentage credit for the gift that you gave?

Of course not but does he get all the blame for rejecting it? Sure, he does so in your well -intended effort to give god all the glory for your salvation

You've also given him all the blame for everyone else's damnation And I don't think that that's founded in the pages Well, i'm just i'm just glad that you admit that christ gets 100 percent of the credit for your salvation

If we have time then I could explore that further But my other question is you believe that god knows the future exhaustively you believe that he's omniscient

I was happy to hear you admit that to andrew so We are in time. God is not in time

God will know then who ends up in hell before he creates them. Is that not fair? Yes, but the reason he knows that is because he knows their choices

Not because he's determined their choices. No, no, that's fine So god knows for certain where a person will spend eternity.

We have both agree on that Yes Okay, and we've got we're addressing that earlier.

Hang on a second if god knows for certain that a person will end up in hell Can they end up in heaven?

They they could have ended up in heaven That's not that's not my question god knows for sure the difference between the two you're saying could could

Could it happen other than what god knows and i'm saying no to that Okay, could it happen other than what they freely chose?

Yes Okay, so we agree that's what william lane craig talks about with the difference of necessity and uncertainty

Something can be certainly known by god without being him being the one who necessitates it or causes Well, we're not even talking about that.

We we believe that god knows for certain a person is going to hell They will certainly go to hell now if you're standing in front of that person

Can they end up in heaven if you share the gospel with them and accept christ? Yes, because they have they have not freely made the choice yet.

Well, that's god knows God may know what they're freely going to choose to do But that does not change the fact that they still have a free decision in the moment

Well, i'm sure people that's a different philosophical perspective I'm sure people watching can see the inconsistency god knows for certain that i'm sure they can see the inconsistency with you as well

Let me just finish god god knows for certain that person will end up in hell You've agreed to that god knows for certain that person will end up in hell

And now you're saying it's possible that they won't I say that's a big problem and thanks for your time Thanks, thanks

I I think I think I mean what he tried to do quickly there is is kind of the point that I I took a lot longer to try to to talk about with you because I I actually don't think there's a lot of difference

Between what you and I believe I think that I I really don't

I think the big issue is You know, can I address can I address that though? I mean, yeah

Yeah, I think there's a huge difference. The reason the reason that size particular view Is a problem is that that's not calvinism

Calvinism is not about god knowing what we're freely going to do and therefore it's going to be that way.

Certainly that's not Calvinism view is the no Calvinism's view is that he knows it because he has decreed it and I have quotes from spruill

And piper sitting in a table and a round table talking about that The reason he knows it is that is because he's decreed it to be that way

Not because he knows what people freely will choose to do That's the difference between the certainty and the necessity that I did not want to go there

Because he knows full well that he's defending the necessity not the certainty of god's knowledge

The whole thing that what he was trying to point out is the necessity is because of the certainty he knows because He already knows what will happen in his omniscience.

We're not omniscient It's it's the difference between god's knowledge and our knowledge. That's where the struggle is um

You know, I I think That's the reason why god knows it if it's the reason why he knows it is because he's determined it through sovereign decree

Or he knows it because you freely independently made that choice and you could have done otherwise

It doesn't matter about all the rest of the philosophical speculations. It will come to pass Because he knows it it's not that it's that he's and this is why

I keep using the word force It's not that he is decreeing it and therefore it's forced to happen It's decreed because he knows what will be

That is what And yet like this is what's like I'm just i'm telling you

That as I read to you three quotes proving in other words, I brought receipts you need to bring receipts you need to show

Calvin and others did not teach necessity because they have Yeah, but they have talked about both sides of this and you're you have the quotes of one side.

So yeah, right Well, i'll again compatibilists believe both sides. We're claiming that they're that they're contradictory

They're not compatible and they're claiming they are compatible and appeals to mystery as to how they're compatible So we're not saying they don't teach both sides.

We're saying that teaching both sides is Not compatible. They're they're contradictory. That's our argument against that view.

So yeah, they don't teach both sides. They're doing what they want to do I would say they're not contradictory any more than Ephesians is written by paul and god.

It's it's the same but let me I want to give you time written by paul under the inspiration of the whole

Exactly that so so I the superintending is is important. I I encourage you to go if you go to rap report .org

um rap report .org rap with two p's Uh, my my rap report podcast.

You'll see the uh, just do a search on superintending Um, it's a bonus episode.

I did where I explain what that doctrine is and show how that works through in In with calvinism, but let me ask this question.

I may I want to make sure I get to this This is from brian nine Of uh, he's with hearts for the lost an evangelistic uh ministry, it's a group that goes to any church anyone that wants to Uh, have them come out to your church learn how to share the gospel

They will come into your church for free so you could go check out hearts for the lost but his question is

Referring to you heard his claim to be an evangelist. However, i've never heard him discuss anything but the anti -calvinism and pro evangelism takes

So Here's what he says. We'd love to hear him His take on evangelism in general and how he transitions normal conversations to share the gospel

So what i'd like you to do is talk about your view on evangelism in the few minutes we have left Uh, and if you wouldn't mind presenting the gospel to anyone that's listening

Yeah, I think this is one thing that one of the reasons that I always defend the fact that I believe

Calvinist are my brothers um I don't think being a calvinist disqualifies you from the kingdom

Some people argue or that you're a heretic and not and therefore can't be saved But thanks to god's grace.

We're not saved by doctrinal fidelity, but by his grace and so I say that to say that You know, andrew's a friend

And and other calvinists that are on this program and others that you know teach calvinism. I believe are brothers

And and that's because god's grace is about Uh our relationship with christ that jesus came

To pay the price for our sins now I believe he loves everyone in the world. We may differ on that and some calvinistic camps may differ on that I believe he's provided a way of salvation for every person through the atoning work of jesus christ um, and so our distinctions that we've been talking about today can unite on that that we believe in jesus christ, we believe that he he

Has died for the sins of the world and we believe that anyone who puts their trust in him who puts their faith in him will be saved and We believe also obviously when we're especially when you talk about evangelism or in methods of evangelism

I have courses on methods of evangelism and Uh the whole statement of which which method is best and we talk about the one you're willing to use

Uh, and we talk about different options and ways of doing evangelism, uh within our courses

Um, you know the way of the master even though some of the guys there may disagree with me my my theology on some things

I think has some awesome Evangelistic resources for those that are looking for some good resources and so hopefully the the heart of uh, the heart of our love for one another and the heart of our common belief in jesus christ as the the one who

Is the only way the truth in life and the door for salvation And so if if I were talking to you person to person um, and this was a big issue for you the whole fatalism and predestination and and uh,

Arminianism and molinism and all those kinds of things, but you weren't a believer Then I would immediately shift the discussion to talk about jesus

I would immediately want to talk about the things that matter the most to keep the main thing the main thing

And and so please hear my heart when I say that that that the desire here is not to uh

Focus so much on the secondary matters that we lose the weightier matters Um, and though I do believe this doctrine these doctrines that we've talked about are important The most important thing is the gospel of jesus christ the love of jesus christ and the provision of jesus christ for the world so, um

And you know, I I appreciate you coming in I think that I hope that folks got a lot of I I You know,

I want to you know I don't know if Drew would be able to do this or I could figure out how to do this But I want to get all the questions.

He started there's at least like almost 30 questions back there um, and maybe what we do is have you come in and just Kind of do a rapid fire.

We we try to get through Because I probably have literally 50 questions between what he starred and what

I have in notes, um It'd probably be kind of neat to just maybe have you come back and just just answer questions

Yeah, would you be that would be fun? Yeah. Um Yeah, I I hope if one thing we have maybe we have eric on the philosophical side and i'll take the theological side and we'll

Run through them real fast, then i'll bring cy in for the philosophical side because he's more than But but um,

I know I mean it'd be good just to to go through some more questions, I think look I one thing and Layton you you'll know my heart on this.

The one thing I want folks to see is You can see layton. I disagree with one another we disagree with our the views

We have we disagree we each think that both sides are kind of misrepresenting each other, right

We can recognize that Um, if i'm calling nate layton any names it was clearly in jest.

I mean he's clearly looks at least four times older than me um I'm, actually

Hey, you debate don't you andrew? Why don't we debate the the topic? Is calvinism?

Deterministic Theistically deterministic, you know theistic determinist is not naturalistic determinist is is calvinism historically is calvinism historically

Theistically deterministic deterministic in other words We can learn how to we can figure out how to phrase it But you you take the side that says no calvinists are not theistic determinists and i'll take the side that calvinists historically are theistic determinists

And we'll debate it Okay, I mean i'd be open for that. I mean we have to we have to define the terms and we have to we're going to have to Limit it to say how we're going to define what calvinism is because that's where we get the issue

It's you know, the the turn this is the whole thing the term calvinism It's like the term church that if you get my book

What do we believe where I talk about the church the word ecclesia church has changed over time

What it means it's become more and more precise over time Sure the calvinism and I would still use that word even though it clearly wasn't the the label but the calvinism of augustine has changed in the calvinism that you'd have of of calvin, uh, the calvinism of um, you know that you end up seeing with a john owen

Yeah, and difference, you know different especially with limited atonement. Yeah, exactly That's where the the the idea of limited atonement changes

That's you know, that's why I would I would say i'm what's referred to as a classical calvinist I'm i'm

I hold to the calvinism prior to john owens what many of the puritans held to that's cool

I didn't I realized that so you would disagree with piper over that. Yeah. Yeah, so Um, you know, so so we have to recognize that so we'd have to figure out

Okay, if we're going to define if we're going to do that, we have to figure out what is what what calvinism we're speaking of Well calvinism and determinism would both be uh

Terms that would be the debate would be really over those terms Because in some sense like you said you you can argue that molinas are determinists

And even and even some molinists claim to be Determinists that are still holding to libertarian freedom of the will and so that I think that's the bigger separation

Is if you affirm it do do calvinist affirm? Libertarianly free will and I think people like chris date and bing yong would argue no and you might argue.

Yes No, I wouldn't I wouldn't want to be quoting chris date Or oh,

I was talking also bing yong. I mean he's written the book on yeah Yeah Yeah, so so yeah,

I mean i'd be up for that and we'd have to we'd have to talk through Uh and work through definitions, but I yeah

That could be fun but I mean I just feel bad because I got a lot of people that asked questions and we and We never got to them.

So I want to at least try and get you back on We'll just schedule another time and maybe maybe we can simulcast onto my program too or something like that.

Yeah, that'd be good. Um So, let me let me just ask for folks watching next week for for anyone who?

remembers some time ago, uh, we Because this show is we didn't have too many people.

We had we have a number of people backstage Uh, not everyone wanted to come in uh and and so, um but this is show where Generally the second hour anyone can come in ask anything

Okay. Um We had a guy sebastian who came in Wanted to argue that mary is the arc of the covenant and um

Well next week sebastian should be coming back and we will be

Discussing slash debating um Really with a canon of scripture.

He argues that the the church We didn't have a canon without the church And if you go back

We we uh, I think I think uh, i'm going to bring chuck in and ask chuck whether chuck

Was sebastian the episode when you and I were talking about your appearance on? Uh godless grandma

Okay, I didn't remember if it was the show that when you were on okay So I I thought so but chuck's been it was backstage this whole time quietly

He had some questions that we didn't get to yeah, that's fine. That's fine but uh

Uh sebastian will argue from he actually it is kind of fun. He will argue that the current pope is not catholic um

It will be a interesting, uh discussion um let's see, uh

This is so Theology stuff guy says mary is the arc of the covenant question mark

Yeah, he it was interesting his argumentation um, he was saying that You know, the arc of the covenant held the word of god.

Mary held the word of god. Yeah, so it Yeah, okay Um, so you can see how his logic is it will be fun.

It will be interesting You may want to bang your head against the wall But you won't want to miss it.

So that'll be next week. Um, and the week after that on the 19th Uh for folks who are regular here many years ago we dealt with some dangerous doctrines a church that Uh, well, one of the people said was a cult and I was like, oh that's going a little bit too far

Be very careful with that and we've done a a series on a church out in iowa um

People have asked whether we would revisit that whether we have any updates for that And so kevin kevin yontz will come back on and he and I will be discussing, uh some of that uh

Go back to to that and give a little bit more because there was some things that did happen even though it happened a while ago

We decided to remain silent uh based on some things recently Um, we decided you know what?

it's time to Uh, just to to point some things out some people who are just misrepresenting the truth uh yet again, and so I I said back then we don't want to make a this show is not about attacking others or You know constantly just reiterating you know just because It's easy to do

Uh, that's not what this show is about We're here to do apologetics to show apologetics also show how to conduct ourselves like we did tonight in apologetics so with that, uh

We're going to revisit it just because we feel a lot of people have asked for an update And there's some things that happen that cause us to think we should so with that we will be back next week

Hope you will join us and remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of god