A Defense of Cessationism part 10

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So so his last question is was scripture less available in some countries as it is in ours can we make this statement that the holy spirit need not provide these gifts in areas where no scripture is widely available so they don't have scripture in in where where christianity is outlawed or they just don't have resources to have the bible in those countries um does god need the holy spirit to have to be active with signs and dreams and wonders and miracles because the scripture is not present and available need to no okay does he i mean god can do what he wants um and this this is one of those things where where we say it's not normative but that's not normative situation in the world we live in today i mean there are lots of people groups who don't have don't have the word of god a lot of people who the language is unknown they can't they can't get uh the gospel even in their in their tongue but that that's still not a large percentage of the world it's a relatively small percentage it's not normative so could god work in those situations to to bring the gospel to a people who don't have the scripture in their language absolutely would he use the gift of tongues to do it perhaps um i i really don't don't know that would be up to god to to do that but i do know that god is is uh is good and he will make sure that that the the word of god goes to the ears it's supposed to go to and he will make sure that um his word doesn't return void yeah so i don't know if he if he needs to use the gifts but i'm sure he could well you think about the timeline of history i mean we're we're in a unique time where scripture is like you're like you were saying scripture is more prevalent today than it has ever been and so you you think about the the our history uh the medieval period um the the dark ages and it didn't and even beyond post and and pre those those time periods the the word of there was a time when we didn't have the printing press um and so scripture was not readily available to the majority of people that lived on this planet and it was confined to a a certain church that held on to it and held on held on to it in such a fashion that they would only speak it in a certain language a language that the common person didn't even understand and so with no interpreter with no interpreter talking about the latin mass for those who haven't caught on yet yeah so it's it's god's prerogative it's god's prerogative it's his sovereignty how he decides to operate in this world where there would be a and it may be a time of judgment where the the scripture was not as prevalent but then he worked he worked in men who desired for other people to know the word of god to to create the printing press to to translate into english you know and we could go through all that history but he's he's worked through men so the word of god could be more prevalent where it is today um i was thinking about this question and and answer this dan so if if you believe that jesus um is the is the brother of lucifer do you have the biblical jesus if if you have a jesus who did not raise from was not crucified did not rise from the dead do you have the biblical jesus no if you have a jesus who is one of many gods he's a god but he's one of many gods uh do you have the biblical jesus no so the continuationists want to use jesus appearing in dreams in the on the mission field as an argumentation for the spirit working through miraculous signs and wonders and gifts because people are having dreams about jesus but if you don't have the scripture to teach you who that jesus is then what good is the dream if if you don't have the scriptures to objectively teach you who jesus is you're gonna you're gonna fall into a trap where you have a jesus of your own making yeah well i mean you definitely need the teaching of the apostles but the uh the the the early church didn't have all of that either they were still being saved now they did have the apostles right they had people to tell them about it but say say the the uh the gospel goes to a a people group who doesn't they don't know the language say god does reach someone through through a dream um i believe that he will he will provide a means of discipling those people why because he because jesus prayed in in the high priestly prayer that we would be sanctified and sanctified by the word that's right that word doesn't necessarily have to be a written word it could be spoken it can be spoken for for a time until another language is figured out or or whatever so i don't know i don't i don't know i don't it's going to trace back to the scripture it may be verbal but it's going to trace back to the scripture well sure i mean in the time where the scriptures were being written um knows i guess future scripture but it was it was the word of god there what was the truth of god being spoken by god to man either through the apostles and then later written down right so it could be that they are taught these things and they never have written scriptures um at least not in their lifetime but they're still able to learn because the word of god has been brought to them you know by the power of the holy spirit through through a person or through you hear about it in in muslim contexts of people coming to christ through dreams they'll say oh christ was was revealed to me in a dream i mean glory to god that's the way that he wants to to bring people to himself that's that's fantastic um he's uh is still the spirit testifying to the truth of christ and it's um i don't see where it's it's necessary but if that's the way that god wants to do things and that's the way god wants to do things and i really think that's the that's the whole um debate between continuations and cessationists um is not can god do these things or is god doing these things but what is the normative practice of these gifts and we believe that the normative practice of of these gifts was for the the time of transition between the old and new covenant that now god can still use these things for his own glory but that he generally doesn't because he's a god who delights in the ordinary means of grace of the basic preaching of the word of baptism the lord's supper where we get to see the the cleansing of sins and the feeding upon christ body and blood as uh as a means of him drawing the people to himself and sanctifying us by his word though that's really what we're god delights in um because that's where we've seen him delight in in those things throughout history right so well that's where scripture leads us it leads us to his word being the sanctifier through the holy spirit it it's all scripture being inspired by the holy spirit profitable um for every good work um for proof correction and instruction and righteousness so that's where scripture leads us that's where the holy spirit leads us points us to christ points us to scripture and points us to god using his word um we i don't i don't see in the opposite where god is going to use as a normative practice dreams to sanctify um you know signs and wonders to proclaim truth it's just the opposite it's his word right well the the time where there was uh tongues and prophecy and and um those things it was to show with jewish people that their messiah had come and they crucified him yeah yeah peter that's right that's right and we'll hit on that in just a second so uh i know that we're not together it looks like yeah uh this is going to be a longer one uh i just i wanted to get to these last questions um i know that wasn't satisfactory but it was we we gave it our best shot um so here's some and these are based on my observation and like i said i don't want to paint with a broad brush because it's not everybody it's just um observation um but here's the first observation uh concerning the gifts being normative um there seems to be a difference between the preaching of the gifts in scripture and the preacher preaching on the gifts today so in in first corinthians 12 13 14 that's where you have mainly the gifts being discussed concerning the the average christian apart from jesus apart from the apostles here here's your average christian churchgoer church member and their relationship with the gifts it seems like um in a broad sense um not making everyone guilty of this um from my observation paul here is teaching how to use the gifts their their usage their their proper um part of the church order but then the preaching on the gifts today is not how how they should be used and using them properly in the church but teaching teaching people um that they're that they're not present that they should be present and then how how to almost conjure them up like you don't speak in tongues well here's a class on how to speak in tongues or here's a class on how to prophesy um not how they're used in their church order because paul was preaching their their proper usage because they were normative they exist um it seems like the preaching today is we need them um and so here's how here's how to do it um and and i didn't explain that as well as i did before we started the show um maybe you can tighten up those bolts that i left loose hey what you're saying is it seems like um the emphasis on the gifts in scripture is on the proper use of them it seems like so and you're not saying everybody but it seems like a uh a large number of of folks are preaching on the the necessity and the manifestation of the gifts more than a proper use whereas it seemed like nobody had to teach the corinthians how to speak in tongues or how to prophesy they had to be taught how to do those things well decently and in order because they were happening because the spirit was giving them um the ability to to do it um whereas it seems like today there's uh there's an emphasis on oh you'd like to speak in tongues or you'd like to prophesy so here's how you go about doing it right um no to actually make it make it uh appear uh no i've seen video i'm sure people have seen videos and and i'm sure people are gonna be like hey yo that's not me but it's still out there right who would say uh you know you know uh they'll lay their hands on somebody just say put your tongue loose and just let it flow and then you hear somebody do what whatever it is that they do i'm trying to teach them how to speak in tongues when i mean if the spirit gives you utterance you're going to you're going to do it it seems like it seems like there there would be no if if the spirit was actually giving these gifts there would be no need for some man to teach you you know to do those things maybe to teach you the proper use of those gifts which is what we see in scripture but not not that here's how you make it happen right and and this kind of leads back and bleeds over from john's question because you're you were raised or brought up in a cessationist environment and it wasn't normative does it make it not normative does your experience determine truth and the answer to that question of course we already talked about that it is no but it seems that if if the gifts were normative because we we've both got to agree based on first corinthians and hebrews that corinthians says that they are they're given by the the will of the spirit hebrew says it's given by the will of the father so the the gifts and how they're given and whom they're given to are determined by the will of god we both agree on that and if they are normative it doesn't matter what denominational background you come from whether it's normative or it's not normative if if the holy spirit and his gift giving were as normative and prevalent as they were in the first century church it doesn't matter what denominator not denominational background you come from it would seem like they would be more prevalent they would be you you would see them often right you wouldn't have to try to drum them up right right it seems like that i mean there must be a reason why um you don't see you you don't see that you don't see the the manifestation of those manifestation of those gifts in certain denominations right i mean you why is that you know are we in such error that we're no longer no real parts of christ church that we wouldn't be given the same gifts or uh that kind of feels like the accusation yeah and i mean you know the the spirit will give out the gifts as he wills may be the thing but then why are we being pushed to see those manifestations among us that's right you one side you have a argument that well you you guys and your denomination you suppress the gifts you ignore them suppress them reject them or whatever that's why they're not normative but then on the other side um you try to drum them up because they're not normative is the observation is the experience um yeah so you you've got the you've got the harsh um claims on on both sides toward toward one another um and and we're we're trying to avoid both you know we reject the harsh claim against us um because we we won't think we we want to believe that we are biblical and and following biblical truth and the other side wants to believe the same thing and so we don't want to be harsh towards them it's when we say it seems it's just we're saying that based on just observation not trying to um be mean about it right it's it's really important that for anybody who's going to engage on on this topic to do so from a place of balance yeah uh because if if you come out no guns a blazing you're going to be imbalanced in your approach and you're going to you know be like a lunatic with a sword you're going to just lop off stuff that you shouldn't be lopping off right so it's it's important for for all of us in any theological disagreement or any disagreement of the sort um that we we come at these things with a with a bit of humility um examine ourselves that we are are balanced in our approach so we don't start kicking people out of the kingdom because they they you know do things a different way or or look a different way or or understand things a different way and as long as they're not primary issues of the gospel and know the doctrine of god um but if if we if we have some disagreements we we shouldn't be quick to to kick others out or to say well you must just be a horrible rotten sinner that's why god's not using you this way or i can't believe that you would just make up stuff about the holy spirit you know that's that's not what these people believe that they're doing that's not what they're trying to do when they write in tongues um or or prophesy the way they do um they really believe that because of scripture um these are practices they're they're gifts from the holy spirit and we we should we should come at it with a a sense of balance and humility that's right that's right if god wants to do things and he wants to do things in other people that he's not doing in us you know maybe we're just wrong yeah i don't think so because of scripture but we should be humble enough to take a step back take some deep breaths not kick people out of the kingdom that god has called to himself and just breathe a little bit we could all be a little bit more charitable so that way you know we're not we're not being harsh to someone when we shouldn't be and they're not being harsh to us when they shouldn't be that's right and and we do have to admit that we do observe things um that as part of our experience um is is observe observing things and observing how the holy spirit is working um and of course we we measure it by the objective standard of god's word but you think about the fruits of the holy spirit love joy peace how do we know that somebody is is of christ because they we observe them being of us or with us or or that they left us or that they're exhibiting the fruits of the spirit love joy peace patience kindness goodness faithfulness gentleness and self -control we observe that so therefore we can see that the holy spirit is is working and the same thing i think is true in this circumstance i'm i'm observing the holy spirit's not working as a normative practice where he's giving these gifts across the board does that make sense you had me until that last sentence so so my observation is that if i'm what i'm observing in the holy spirit and his work in us is that it's it's not normative because if it were normative then he would he would be giving these gifts it doesn't matter what denomination you're in he would be given these gifts um even those denominations that we would say quote suppress the gifts or reject the gifts that are cessationist you would still be seeing them in those denominations you couldn't help but exercise what the holy spirit is doing within you he'll be given those gifts and they would be more prevalent in all the denominations across the board right it would be a little bit more widespread even if it was lesser you know lesser in one than than in another um you you would at least see it that's right and that and that bleeds over to my second observation is is those who claim a high view of scripture even though they may believe in the gifts of the holy spirit they seem to have a practice of um what we saw as an example or or what we observed in scripture as the purpose and role of the holy spirit which was to point to scripture for or christ first and point to his word um that's the role and and duty of the holy spirit that we learn from scripture he points to christ he points to his word he sanctifies us through the truth and the truth is is god's word and so that's the main role duty objective of the holy spirit and so those whom we see with a high view of scripture that is evident in their their style and their content in their preaching they will have a sermon or give a sermon um that is that is rich in in truth and rich in the word um and even though they believe in the the gifts and working of the holy spirit through the signed gifts or the the spiritual gifts they may believe in that they have a they emphasize less those gifts in in their ministry and emphasize more the the work of the holy spirit through the through his word and their sermons come across as more rich and more right meaningful that that's that balance that i'm talking about because instead of sort of uh emphasizing a a manifestation of the spirit in yourself you're glorifying god you're magnifying the gospel you're you're recognizing christ and his supremacy and all things right and really i mean that's that's what it's all about is recognizing christ and all that he is and all that he does and making that your focus instead of you know anything else or any pet doctrine right making much like the old uh saying you're gonna make much of jesus that's right and i don't want to be unnecessarily offensive when i say this um because it's not true of everybody um but just the opposite of that is true from observation those who emphasize the gifts more it seems like their their sermons are more shallow and have are more filled with application they're they're not deep um it's more experimental experiential type services and messages it's easier for for heresy to creep into those situations too right right and so we see it just seems like and from observation observing the work of the holy spirit that those who have a high view of scripture give us more deep rich content just like we would expect as we learn about the holy spirit scripture who points to jesus and points to his word sanctifies through his word you're going to have preachers who are filled with the holy spirit who emphasize have a high view of scripture give us deep rich content and have a less and less emphasize i'm not even saying that correctly um they emphasize less the the gifts of the holy spirit even though they might believe in them they emphasize them less yeah so what you're saying is that we've kind of got a two -lane road here where cessationists and continuationists who have a high view of scripture who keep christ as their central focus are running side by side on on the pathway uh towards towards christ towards godliness but you've got ditches on either side of the road that's right so you can fall off on this on the cessationist side where you you start believing that the holy spirit's not working at all you don't know live in the power of the holy spirit you don't trust in him to do the things that he is said to do and you end up being a dull dead lifeless church because you don't have the life of the spirit in you because you don't believe in the spirit you don't trust the gospel go on the other side of the road into the continuationist ditch and you're emphasizing a manifestation of a gift so highly that you're ignoring christ and you're running after experience instead of christ himself so what both sides need to do is to remember to stay on the road recognizing christ as being supreme and looking to him in all things and we can we can link arm and arm with somebody who keeps christ as a central focus of their ministry even if we have some disagreements on on uh you know of this nature of you know which spiritual gifts are what now it may be that we need to uh you know at least we'll call each other brothers first before we decide how you know how we how that relationship looks but that's right yeah we need to uh need to make sure that we avoid ditches on either side of either side of the road that's right i'm glad you said that what we observe in scripture is holy spirit points to christ points to his word and so we we all agree on that now if if you want to believe that if you want to be a continuationist and believe that the gifts continue and and we are cessationist and we don't you know we can lock arms because we believe the main role the holy spirit is pointing jesus and his word that that is secondary to us we we find our unity in that other and i'm glad you talked about the the ditches on the cessationist side because i was thinking about that as well i mean and that's one of my biggest critiques um and and i would say that a cessationist more traditional cessationist denomination as has pastors in it that that are not expository that may verbally with their mouth also say that they have a high view of scripture but they they'll read the text and then just tell stories you know or sometimes they don't want to even read a text and um it's it's just stories there there's no depth there's no richness to their sermons there's no power to their sermons um and so in my opinion like that but they they they won't pray they won't go out and evangelize they won't expect god to actually do anything they're just there to keep the building open and and make sure that their church looks like a church that's right instead of their church actually being a place where people can encounter the true god of scripture that's right so a spirit field um where the using their terminology where the spirit is flowing in that pastor in that cessationist denominational church where the spirit is flowing and where they're relying on the holy spirit is a church where they are relying on god's word and they were they are giving us rich content and they are leading us like you said to evangelize to share the gospel to point to jesus and and to serve others um and so we need to avoid falling in that that ditch and and be critical on both sides where it's due so i appreciate that and here's the last one we'll finish with this one um sorry for the the longer episode but this kind of points back to where dan took us and i think it was the last episode um and it does play a little bit into eschatology um being a partial preterist but it it is undeniable that jerusalem and the temple was destroyed in 70 a .d