Homosexuality, Rick Warren, and the Pope!

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Rick Warren, Proposition 8, and Media Bias

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on the 23rd of December. This has always been a weird calendar up here because it it starts with Monday and ends a Sunday. So it sort of throws you off but it is that week and we have a lot of things to talk about today on the program.

The only program this week because for some reason we're not going to do one on Thursday for whatever reason that might be. I Would like to start with well. More of what we face in our culture today. I have a segment here.

To play this is from MSNBC. Featuring Ann Curry and Rick Warren, as you know Rick Warren has been asked to deliver the opening Prayer at the inauguration. It's amazing. They even allow this type of thing anymore in our country but that has caused all sorts of hand-wringing from all sorts of people.

There have been conservatives that are going what in the world are you doing? This is an inauguration is a celebration of a political victory and this was a political victory of the radical left and So what are you doing?

And then of course those on the left? Especially those to whom Obama owes so much the gay and lesbian forces that give so much money and are so active in the promotion of their own lifestyle and The denigration of the Christian worldview that They are just all upset because Warren of course was for Proposition 8.

We need to recognize that in our society today. There is such a hatred of God's truth such a hatred of God's law God's holiness that there is a constant spin. That is irrational Illogical and must be challenged by everyone, but we hear it so much That it's sometimes difficult to know how to respond to it.

I'd like to play some of the segments here and just see how deeply biased prejudiced bigoted in fact. The news media is even in the way. They think clearly this is this is their Their worldview that they are espousing and and they may be so deeply influenced by it.

So prejudiced by they didn't see it. They even recognize how prejudiced they are for example the idea that by holding to Christian belief and by holding to the definition of marriage that mankind has Followed as far back as we can possibly trace historical records.

That we are hurting people yes instead of recognizing the reality and that is there is a Revolutionary movement to completely change thousands of years of human history to completely overthrow Human culture instead of recognizing it for that instead Proposition 8 is about banning gay marriage.

It's not about defining marriage the way. It's always been defined. No, no, no, no, it's about banning gay marriage. It's it's not about affirming anything. No, no, we have to put everything in the negative and if you were for proposition 8 or what was it here 201 102 okay one of whatever.

Whatever the number was here, you know after every other year they assign those numbers and after a while that all become blur. But anyway, we had the same thing here in in Arizona, and of course I voted for it was to define marriage as between one man and one woman and So You you weren't promoting anything positive there.

You had your position has to be defined in light of homosexuality in light of the deviancy in light of the tiny little Percentage of the population say that is that rational? No, of course. It's not rational.

Is that defensible? No, how does it get defended by people screaming at you? That's that's how the homosexual activists are defending their position by screaming at you. And have you noticed it's fascinating to me and I'm gonna get to it but it's fascinating to me that The homosexuals have taken to screaming at Christians shame on you.

Isn't that amazing? Isn't that a fulfillment of Romans chapter 1 those who are suppressing the knowledge of God those who have twisted and turned and reversed God's ordained mechanism of procreation the continuation of the human species, etc, etc.

That they who it who live in shame would be the first ones to scream shame at someone else when that other person dares to expose their own sin, isn't it the height of hypocrisy, but a fulfillment of Romans chapter 1 isn't it?

So let's listen to some of the comments here. I found them fascinating and.

Then we'll we'll go on from there. Barack Obama's facing criticism from many liberals over his choice of the Reverend Rick Warren. To deliver the invocation at his inauguration Reverend Warren has been a vocal supporter of California's Proposition 8.

That's the proposition that bans gay marriage.

Let's see that bans gay marriage. Not not that this is commensurate with what Christians have believed from the beginning. That this is exactly what the what the Bible has taught despite Newsweek's You know hackneyed piece of pseudo scholarship.

Nothing like that at all. It's got to be defined so that you are doing something negative. It's all spin. Somebody sat down and and wrote all this out and sent out the various outlets and it demonstrates to you just how Completely biased the media has become.

There's there's you know, if you get you if anyone gets their information from these sources. You're you're not to be able to walk a straight line let alone think straight in that state.

Dateline NBC's and curry sat down with Reverend Warren joins us now. I know that you asked him Why? About the backlash now to his support for this marriage ban and how that might affect the politics moving forward with Barack Obama.

What did he say to you about it? He's it's so interesting, you know, he actually has a reputation until November of being a reconciler somebody who brings people from different points of views together.

But in November when Proposition 8 was on the California ballot He stood up and took a position that he was against gay marriage now.

Notice you if you're gonna be a reconciler, then you can't be against gay marriage. You it's just just not possible for you to take a stand a Biblical stand in regards to what marriages you have to hold this position.

You must accept gay marriage or by definition you are divisive. You are backwards. You are hateful just just by definition.

That's just the way it is. And in doing so he outraged a community that he has been courting and has taken care of with AIDS. Attention, you know HIV funding he is. Why would you be courting a.

Population defined by its sin. I mean, do you court? The adulterer generate the adulterer group. Do you court the Theft group. Do you court the. I mean we can just go on down the line the murderer group or whatever, you know.

Is that is that what a Christian supposed to be doing in the first place is really a question that of course crosses my mind.

He's really reached out and created great relationships with people in the gay community. And so they were very hurt by his position when he came out against gay marriage.

Let's take a look at what he and notice they were very hurt. You mean they thought that he was for gay marriage or that if you if you minister to people who have AIDS, that means you somehow have to embrace this idea of Of Adulterating the concept of marriage turning into something it never was before Throwing Jesus's words under the bus.

Is that what you must do or you're going to hurt someone? Does does what Ann Curry believe that the Bible? When it says you shall not commit murder is hurting murderers. When it says you shall not steal that it's hurting thieves.

When it says you shall not commit adultery that it's hurting adulterers. Is this how is this how? Discussion is to take place in our society now. Based upon who you think you're gonna be hurting. Why doesn't anyone ever ask what hurts Christians?

Oh That doesn't really matter. Much does it had to say to me?

Have you reconciled yourself with that pain that you've caused because of that loss of faith in you?

Well, how do you reconcile yourself with that pain? You've caused you've betrayed them. Oh my goodness. The scary thing is she she thinks this way it is utterly irrational. It's utterly absurd, but she thinks this way and that's how people who who get their thinking from the mainstream media.

That's how they think too. It is amazing.

I. Because if that hadn't passed the pain that would have caused to Far million eight millions more I think would be more severe. And here's what I'd see in this in for five.

No, you can't see it. They cut back to her and she's doing this. And you know Channel 12 here in Phoenix is normally what I would have on the morning if I want to catch the news or something. So I see anchor all the time and.

So after a while, you know, who's who and you know what she's thinking and she's like what? How can that be? How silly is that? And they specifically cut away from him to show her doing that. Just to communicate.

I mean, let's face it. We know what editors are and and we know where the editors are coming. Thousand years.

Every single culture and Every single religion has defined marriage as a man and a woman not just Christianity Judaism Islam.

Hinduism Buddhism your position has well while all of that is true. Well, all of that is true. I'm sorry. That's not how I would have answered the question. I would have answered the question the way I was addressing it earlier.

And that is what do you mean causing pain to someone. And are you seriously suggesting to me as a Christian that if I? Present God's law God's rules as to how mankind is to live that the way that mankind is to experience life in its fullness that those who reject those rules who purposefully Flout those world rules and flaunt them and and says I will not I will not obey those things.

That I should be accused of hurting them. When we have laws in our land that say you are not to commit acts of pedophilia. Are you hurting pedophiles. And when you say you're supposed to have laws against bestiality?

Are you hurting those that engage in that and? Think and think go beyond the emotions. Turn on the mind. Let's think reasonably and logically for just a moment that is passing out of Western culture. You don't think logically.

You think emotionally. Who cares if the result is a mishmash of silliness people wonder Why do we see such massively? Incoherent rulings from judges in our land. That's why. You still have a few that judge on the basis of law and then you get the rest who throw law out and judge on the basis of motion and.

The result is horrible. Raise the specter that you are homophobic. That is why you laugh.

That is why yeah people are angry gay people are angry and gay people are angry. You're a homophobe evidently if you voted for eight you're a homophobe. That Is so irrational it is so absurd that it's it's difficult to even know how to respond to such things.

So if you Believe that the definition of marriage defined within the page of Scripture if you believe what Jesus said then you're a homophobe. Well, then logically by necessary Logical compulsion is not Ann Curry and most of Western society Christophobes.

Are they not heterophobes? I mean if we're gonna start using this kind of absolutely inane irrational illogic then How can there be any public discourse left? I don't understand it. How if you're just gonna throw this type of stuff around it's just how is it possible for them to be civil?

I could someone who would maybe deny who would say I don't like what you are. Yeah, you understand.

Donald don't don't sit there and say yeah. Yeah, Rick say no. No, and do you hear what you're saying? I mean the circularity of her of even her questions. Absolutely beyond the pale. I don't like what you are.

You are not defined by the decision that you've made to go against God's law. God's creative decree defines you not your sin first of all and. Then well you you you're just you're just a terrible mean horrible person.

This isn't rational. This isn't even rational journalism. It's it.

Well, I could give you a hundred gay. Of course not. I have always treated them with respect when they come and want to talk to me. I talked to him when the protesters came. We served him water and doughnuts.

Now remember this is a man.

I'm not sure that serving people water and doughnuts is.

A man who has a purpose driven life. This is a book that sold actually I know it's been reported 20 million actually more than 30 million copies in all languages worldwide and He has in this way try to cause people to understand that they have a purpose in his view God's purpose.

And he and he has given 90 of his income of all the millions He's made to helping people suffer less for humanitarian causes. So he is a guy who actually through his church has done a tremendous Tremendous amount of good and he has a reputation as a guy who despite his personal views on any issue one way or another Tries to stand up and reach across with us.

However, however in this case in standing up against gay marriage.

He has unleashed a firestorm. It's never standing up for the Christian view of marriage. No, no, no. No, it's always standing up against the radical position. Say. Hopefully it by pointing these things out.

You'll be able to point them out. Maybe you know Christmas Day. Maybe you've got some family members who think like Ann Curry. And hopefully I'm encouraging you to point out the irrationality Of this kind of worldview this kind of thinking That precludes any kind of meaningful conversation whatsoever.

And and but that firestorm was with liberals and so just as you just reported earlier liberals are upset about He is being. Some liberals are upset about his choice by Barack Obama to speak as inauguration.

He is also being embraced by conservatives by many conservatives who view that his position Means that Barack Obama is standing up and also reaching across to people on both sides of these issues.

Any difference though, I mean when when the pastor in a religious church gets up and stands up and says my religion Does not permit the marriage between two people of the same gender. That's what happens in that church and he's the head of that church and he has every right to say that.

But now here's here's.

The mindset folks. This is what's coming. You can say whatever you want inside your church, but don't you dare? Live in light of it outside your church. Your religion has no place this is this is the voice of secularism.

This is the voice of Europe today. You can have your belief inside your church. But don't let it impact the way you do anything outside your church. It cannot impact law it cannot impact society and This is because this constant drumbeat of well you have a religious worldview and we have the scientific worldview and We don't have to defend our worldview.

We don't even have we. There's not even a clash you see because the religious worldview has nothing to do with science or has nothing to do with history. It's just a myth. It's just what happens between your ears and this is what people think.

This is exactly where they are that you. It's it's you can see it in scholarship when when people say well, we can't. We can't allow God in history, you know, no historian could allow to say well God had anything to do with this, you know.

It's a dread cetera, etc. It's this kind of I have my worldview, but I am NOT gonna admit it. I'm not gonna recognize it. I'm not gonna compare it with a Christian worldview or anything like that. Given that the vast majority of those involved in media Have a a worldview that is thoroughly opposed to God.

It shouldn't be surprising what we're hearing coming out of these ladies.

Mouths when he comes out and supports proposition 8 banning gay marriage. He's talking banning gay marriage banning gay marriage banning gay marriage.

It's it's a mantra. They can't even see past it. They even see it themselves. They're slaves to this stuff about secular marriage.

He's talking about marriage that happens without the sanction necessarily of any church. That happens in a government setting. Does he see any difference between those two? I mean he was coming out against a government proposition not something that happens within the walls of his own.

Congregation. He see what happens in the walls. Your congregation is now completely separate. You Christians cannot have anything to do with governmental action or the society around you and. All you gotta do is just look at.

Look at San Francisco. Look at this wonderful secular city, and how's it turning out? Entire places. San Francisco you can't even go at night. You The the good citizens of San Francisco hide in their homes at night in many places.

And that's what they want for all of us. It's interesting. You know one of the answers he has to that is that the The pro that the idea of gay marriage was so well funded in terms of Groups come can't come forth and had basically said you know We're gonna fund the fight against this ban that he felt that it was his responsibility To come out and say wait a minute.

We need to also we need to create a balance here so people hear both sides. One of the issues He said is that you know he cannot. He was concerned that there would be an infringement on his freedom to speak about it because if in fact he came out he was Worried that this that this proposition a would prevent him from getting up on the pulpit and speaking speaking out against same-sex marriage.

So you know we go into all of that, but also we talked about you know him as a man.

I know I interview on dateline in yeah, and so on and so forth and blah and blah and blah. So there you have there you have that now before we take any phone calls. At the very same time today Fox News.

Pope accused of stoking homophobia after speech. Pope Benedict was accused of stoking homophobia today. After a speech in which he declared that saving humanity from homosexuality was just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction.

The pond have made the remarks yesterday in the end of year addressed to the Curia the Vatican central administration. He said that humanity needed to listen to the quote language of creation. And quote.

To understand the intended roles of man and woman and behavior beyond traditional heterosexual relations, I'm sorry. To understand in generals a minimum and behavior, okay? Would have been nice to have had a break there.

And Behavior beyond traditional heterosexual relations was a quote destruction of God's work. And quote. Quote the tropical forests do deserve our protection. But man is a creature does not deserve any less.

And quote. Benedict told story scores of Prelates gathered in the Vatican's Clementine Hall Quote. What's needed is something like a human ecology understood in the right sense. It's not simply an outdated metaphysics if the church speaks of the nature of the human person as man and woman.

And Asked that this order of creation be respected. And quote. It is not the first time the bandit has issued the curious speech to throw out a controversial idea two years ago. He complained that Islam had not yet learned had yet to learn the lessons of the Enlightenment.

But the comments were quickly denounced by gay and lesbian groups both inside and outside the church a very poorly constructed sentence which sounds like The case of lesbians were protesting what he said about Islam.

Well we all do that don't wait anyway. And then of course we have to let the gays be the reverend Sharon Ferguson chief executive of the lesbian and gay Christian movement Described Benedict's comments as totally irresponsible and unacceptable in any shape or form.

I'm not sure she said it that way, but I just have a She said it is more the case that we need to be not that we need to be saved from his comments. It is comments like that the justified homophobic bullying that goes on in schools.

And it is comments like that the justified gay bashing hear this this is their mantra. There's no I I have yet to encounter any of these folks That will get beyond this mantra of Thoughtlessness. Throw out the names get the emotions going let's not deal with the issues.

It's amazing absolutely Amazing there are still so many instances of people being killed around the world including in Western society purely and simply because their sexual orientation. Or their gender identity.

Therefore you can't talk about this. You can't talk about this to your fault. Would someone like to logically connect the dots there. Well there is no connection between the dots, but that's The situation we're facing.

In fact it seems like they gave her more quotation than they gave the Pope. In fact it goes on from there. Yeah, they gave much more space to the Homosexuals to respond to that then to what the Pope said and all the Pope was simply saying was basic fundamental.

Straight out of history. Why is it? That Christians and Jews and Muslims and so on so forth have stood against this kind of stuff because of what they believe about God being the creator of all things and defining for us what human life is and once you have now the second and third generation of people Who have been removed from the influence of believing that God is their creator now?

We see the irrationality that comes as a result now. We see the human animal The result of random mutation and chance over time you think these things are not connected you better believe they're connected.

Because the only way this kind of irrationality Can survive and can be promulgated is when people do not believe they're creating the image of God they have no transcendent value there is no transcendent truth and so you can reason like this you can think like this you can act like this and Who's to tell you differently and So you can turn everything upside down.

Because just as Romans chapter 1 describes it they've exchanged the truth of God for a lie. They've exchanged the creator for the creation. They have twisted things upside down and so I think back to that video of those protesters and the one little old lady and They knocked the cross out of her hands and when they're going after her then you can see you can also see if you watch Carefully, they're they're not they're not just accidentally stepping on the cross.

They're stomping on the cross. They hate Christianity. They hate it. Because it reminds them of their daily Struggle to suppress that conscience that tells them over and over again That what they're doing is sinful in the eyes of God and If you dare say that and if they get enough money and enough corrupt politicians in their pockets.

They will want to see you in jail for saying that you better believe it you better believe it. So in that amazing you it's. And again, I said this many times we're gonna take our break and then come back with the phone calls.

But I've said as many times I wish there was a way To put a barrier up at the door of the church that when you walk through it all this worldly Foolishness. See thinking like this is thinking with a reprobate mind.

These people are thinking with a reprobate mind. They cannot think with the mind of Christ spiritual things are foolishness to them. But there is a reprobate mind there is a way of thinking where you have been fully conformed the image of the world and you're thinking An exact opposite way that makes it next to impossible to for you outside the renewing work the Holy Spirit to even begin to understand the things the Spirit of God and Even then when our own people come through that door if we are not Constantly emphasizing to them the need to be in the word the need to be exposed to God's truth.

Then the world is going to conform their thinking to its way. And then they're gonna start perverting the faith to fit this new way of thought and That takes us back to something I've said many times before theology matters what you believe matters and As we live in a society that is not slowly becoming more and more anti-christian.

But at an in breakneck pace becoming more anti-christian. It's a little bit like the old frog in the pan idea, you know if you turn the heat up slowly, he'll sit there until he till he fries and that's what we've been doing and We've been going along with worldly ways of thinking and really because it's just a little bit.

It's just a little bit. It's just a little bit. But now it's going so fast. I don't know how anybody can't see The massive chasm that exists between a godly worldview a worldview that takes God as creator seriously and the worldview that the world is now demanding of us and one of our greatest jobs each and every day fellow believers is That we must put effort into thinking how we are going to talk to these people.

We must understand where they're coming from. But we must think ahead as to how to in the best way. Take the subjects of discussion that we would be encountering in our world today and express them in A Christian fashion because we still have the opportunity to do it without getting chucked in jail.

We still do we better take advantage of it. Because I don't know how long that up. That's that's gonna last really though. I don't know anyway 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 we've already got a couple phone numbers a couple phone callers after we clear the calls.

I'm gonna be looking at some other subjects. We'll talk to you a little bit.

Support for the Ministry and the Need for New Equipment

Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet. White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned.

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see. The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?

The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross-dressing ignoring God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town.

Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org. Alpha and Omega ministries is pleased to introduce the Christmas morning CD by Todd Lindstrom. Passion and peace are what sets Todd's music apart from others.

These 12 instrumental favorites will bless and inspire you as you entertain guests and spend a Christmas morning with your family. You can find this beautiful music that celebrates the birth of our Lord in the bookstore at a omen dot org.

When this is Rich Pierce in a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man-centered self-help program. The need for a no-nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater. I am convinced that a great many go to church every Sunday yet.

They have never been confronted with their sin. Alpha and Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses. Man is sinful and God is holy. That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well.

Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace. Thank you.

Afternoon, I wonder how long it's gonna be so we have to figure out how to do this. But I could some pirate way, you know, so that they can't find us. Because you know offshore. Sure. Yeah, that may be.

How does that work if we're doing it here? You have to bounce it off a server up the sea. You still have to go through some American server or something. So, I don't know. Well, we just may well hire it satellite.

Yeah. Hey anyways, I again want to thank everyone who has made it a Merry Christmas for us around here in the sense that my Amazon wish list. I've been very thankful for the folks who have helped there and then I posted.

What was that Friday or Saturday? I posted a notice that. It's one of the last. Isn't that one of the last machines we made because we used to make our own machines. We used to go out to fries and we grab all components.

I've been putting band-aids and bailing wire on that. Yeah, it's it's. Well, I think it's as old as.

The na 27 machine in there because that's the last one.

It may have been upgraded a couple of times since then but yeah, it's all it's old. Yeah, we put in a. Last year. I kept running into a problem where it was overheating. Yeah so I put in a liquid cooling system and that kind of kept it at bay for a while and.

Age is age man. It's just Gave up the go. So that's the unit that we use to render Video not the YouTube videos, but the big big big big big videos. There's a huge difference if you're not familiar with these things between the video File size and what you're working with to create a DVD a high-quality DVD and what I'm throwing up on YouTube.

Which is 320 by 240, you know, that's my files are. They're not small. I mean, I mean my first computer had a 20 megabyte hard drive on it. So that would that would be about three seconds of most of our modern video but It has to work hard, okay.

It really has to be dedicated and work hard do its thing and like I said on the blog it it rolled over twitched a few times and sort of like when you nail a cockroach with Raid it it gave up the ghost.

And so we have put up a Little I don't know what you call it item in the bookstore That you can donate toward that. We've got I think about a third of it I think has been covered so far and I'm very thankful for that, but we still need the other two-thirds so I want to let you know about that those of you who have benefited from our videos and DVDs and things like that and it's right as we're trying to take a lot of our older stuff and Get it digitized get it available some of the stuff that we had stuff on videotape that has still not been transferred over to DVD and Those are the ones that people like to buy those debates because I still have hair then.

There's not quite as much of a glow so we want to to get that stuff Out there so you can help us with that look in the bookstore. You can find the The unit there and people keep saying well, I don't you go to a Mac.

You've gone to a Mac. Well, hey, I've tried to I've tried to sell the Mac to to mr. Pierce, but he likes He likes the programs he's used to and we have them in Windows versions and they're not cheap programs either.

So That move is not an inexpensive move. Unfortunately to be able to do so We've still got did you not do we not have one machine that's still win 98.

Yeah, our shipping machine. It's when I need Windows 98. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, is that the one that makes the chorus? It's got a fan in it. That's got a bad bearing in it when it fires up. It needs to warm up.

It's got a little creaky but it you know, it still runs the the UPS and the postal software and It still helps me fill the orders and and someday it's gonna. We have for 20 some odd years lived by the credo that we make a penny scream.

Yes this day. It's a bloody murder. Before we let it go and we're trying to be the best stewards that we possibly can but things are starting to show their age. In these times we have to kind of reach out and ask for help.

Yeah, that's right. So well.

So anyways letting you know that's there and so if you've enjoyed those DVDs then keep that keep that in mind. Let's get our phone calls in. I'm not gonna go in the right order sorry, but I'm gonna go in the logical order in other words the topical order and Given that this is a question about homosexuality.

Homosexuality, the Church, and Biblical Arguments

Let's go with Justin. Hi Justin. Yes. Hello. Hi. Hi, I'm I'm a Calvinist. I'm a Christian. I appreciate your ministry and it would always be best to go with the Christian part before the So we got that covered.

Okay. Yeah, I I've noticed that there there's two camps basically here. There's gays outside and gays inside the church. And so my question is kind of twofold. Well, let's let's make sure let's let's let's clarify that one right now What we're when we're talking about the church.

So in other words, we're talking about those who don't make any Pretentions toward any kind of profession of those who do right? Yeah, I think I'm thinking more along the lines of some of your liberal Mainstream churches, right, right, which I which I would consider not to be a part of the Church of Christ, but Christendom.

Yes, right. Okay, kind of like the church visible the church and right exactly. Okay, so my questions twofold first is is our argument our defense against the gays and lesbians the same well in the sense that In Western culture today both camps are using the same arguments.

When encountering a Christian there is a huge body of literature that has been published over the past especially 10 years Virginia Mullencott and Skenzoni and and others have been cranking out Books most of which cite each other.

But cranking out all sorts of arguments on every single text that could possibly be raised. Almost every single text could possibly raised in reference to the subject homosexuality. So the unbelieving Homosexuals like to use that to bash Christians because most Christians let's face it.