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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.
Here is James white.
And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on the 23rd of December. This has always been a weird calendar up here because it it starts with Monday and ends a Sunday. So it sort of throws you off but it is that week and we have a lot of things to talk about today on the program.
The only program this week because for some reason we're not going to do one on Thursday for whatever reason that might be. I Would like to start with well. More of what we face in our culture today. I have a segment here.
To play this is from MSNBC. Featuring Ann Curry and Rick Warren, as you know Rick Warren has been asked to deliver the opening Prayer at the inauguration. It's amazing. They even allow this type of thing anymore in our country but that has caused all sorts of hand-wringing from all sorts of people.
There have been conservatives that are going what in the world are you doing? This is an inauguration is a celebration of a political victory and this was a political victory of the radical left and So what are you doing?
And then of course those on the left? Especially those to whom Obama owes so much the gay and lesbian forces that give so much money and are so active in the promotion of their own lifestyle and The denigration of the Christian worldview that They are just all upset because Warren of course was for Proposition 8.
We need to recognize that in our society today. There is such a hatred of God's truth such a hatred of God's law God's holiness that there is a constant spin. That is irrational. Illogical and must be challenged by everyone, but we hear it so much That it's sometimes difficult to know how to respond to it.
I'd like to play some of the segments here and just see how deeply biased prejudiced bigoted in fact. The news media is even in the way. They think clearly this is this is their Their worldview that they are espousing and and they may be so deeply influenced by it.
So prejudiced by they didn't see it. They even recognize how prejudiced they are for example the idea that by holding to Christian belief and by holding to the definition of marriage that mankind has Followed as far back as we can possibly trace historical records.
That we are hurting people yes instead of recognizing the reality and that is there is a Revolutionary movement to completely change thousands of years of human history to completely overthrow Human culture instead of recognizing it for that instead Proposition 8 is about banning gay marriage.
It's not about defining marriage the way. It's always been defined. No, no, no, no, it's about banning gay marriage. It's it's not about affirming anything. No, no, we have to put everything in the negative and if you were for proposition 8 or what was it here 201 102 okay one of whatever.
Whatever the number was here, you know after every other year they assign those numbers and after a while that all become blur. But anyway, we had the same thing here in in Arizona, and of course I voted for it was to define marriage as between one man and one woman and.
So.
You you weren't promoting anything positive there. You had. Your position has to be defined in light of homosexuality in light of the deviancy in light of the tiny little Percentage of the population say that is that rational?
No, of course. It's not rational. Is that defensible? No, how does it get defended by people screaming at you? That's that's how the homosexual activists are defending their position by screaming at you.
And have you noticed it's fascinating to me and I'm gonna get to it but it's fascinating to me that The homosexuals have taken to screaming at Christians shame on you. Isn't that amazing? Isn't that a fulfillment of Romans chapter 1 those who are suppressing the knowledge of God those who have twisted and turned and reversed God's ordained mechanism of procreation the continuation of the human species, etc, etc.
That they who it who live in shame would be the first ones to scream shame at someone else when that other person dares to expose their own sin, isn't it the height of hypocrisy, but a fulfillment of Romans chapter 1 isn't it?
So let's listen to some of the comments here. I found them fascinating and.
Then we'll we'll go on from there. Barack Obama's facing criticism from many liberals over his choice of the Reverend Rick Warren. To deliver the invocation at his inauguration Reverend Warren has been a vocal supporter of California's Proposition 8.
That's the proposition that bans gay marriage.
Let's see that bans gay marriage. Not not that this is commensurate with what Christians have believed from the beginning. That this is exactly what the what the Bible has taught despite Newsweek's You know hackneyed piece of pseudo scholarship.
Nothing like that at all. It's got to be defined so that you are doing something negative. It's all spin. Somebody sat down and and wrote all this out and sent out the various outlets and it demonstrates to you just how Completely biased the media has become.
There's there's you know, if you get you if anyone gets their information from these sources. You're you're not to be able to walk a straight line let alone think straight in that state.
Dateline NBC's and curry sat down with Reverend Warren joins us now. I know that you asked him.
Why?
About the backlash now to his support for this marriage ban and how that might affect the politics moving forward with Barack Obama.
What did he say to you about it? He's it's so interesting, you know, he actually has a reputation until November of being a reconciler somebody who brings people from different points of views together.
But in November when Proposition 8 was on the California ballot He stood up and took a position that he was against gay marriage now.
Notice you if you're gonna be a reconciler, then you can't be against gay marriage. You it's just just not possible for you to take a stand a Biblical stand in regards to what marriages you have to hold this position.
You must accept gay marriage or by definition you are divisive. You are backwards. You are hateful just just by definition.
That's just the way it is. And in doing so he outraged a community that he has been courting and has taken care of with AIDS. Attention, you know HIV funding he is. Why would you be courting a.
Population defined by its sin. I mean, do you court? The adulterer generate the adulterer group. Do you court the Theft group. Do you court the. I mean we can just go on down the line the murderer group or whatever, you know.
Is that is that what a Christian supposed to be doing in the first place is really a question that of course crosses my mind.
He's really reached out and created great relationships with people in the gay community. And so they were very hurt by his position when he came out against gay marriage.
Let's take a look at what he and notice they were very hurt. You mean they thought that he was for gay marriage. Or that if you if you minister to people who have AIDS, that means you somehow have to embrace this idea of.
Of.
Adulterating the concept of marriage turning into something it never was before. Throwing Jesus's words under the bus. Is that what you must do or you're going to hurt someone? Does does what Ann Curry believe that the Bible?
When it says you shall not commit murder is hurting murderers. When it says you shall not steal that it's hurting thieves. When it says you shall not commit adultery that it's hurting adulterers. Is this how is this how?
Discussion is to take place in our society now. Based upon who you think you're gonna be hurting. Why doesn't anyone ever ask what hurts Christians? Oh That doesn't really matter. Much does it had to say to me?
Have you reconciled yourself with that pain that you've caused because of that loss of faith in you?
Well, how do you reconcile yourself with that pain? You've caused you've betrayed them. Oh my goodness. The scary thing is she she thinks this way it is utterly irrational. It's utterly absurd, but she thinks this way and that's how people who who get their thinking from the mainstream media.
That's how they think too. It is.
Amazing.
I.
Because if that hadn't passed the pain that would have caused to Far million eight millions more I think would be more severe. And here's what I'd see in this in for five.
No, you can't see it. They cut back to her and she's doing this. And you know Channel 12 here in Phoenix is normally what I would have on the morning if I want to catch the news or something. So I see anchor all the time and.
So after a while, you know, who's who and you know what she's thinking and she's like what? How can that be? How silly is that? And they specifically cut away from him to show her doing that. Just to communicate.
I mean, let's face it. We know what editors are and and we know where the editors are coming. Thousand years.
Every single culture and Every single religion has defined marriage as a man and a woman not just Christianity Judaism Islam Hinduism.
Buddhism your position has well while all of that is true. Well, all of that is true. I'm sorry. That's not how I would have answered the question. I would have answered the question the way I was addressing it earlier.
And that is what do you mean causing pain to someone. And are you seriously suggesting to me as a Christian that if I? Present God's law God's rules as to how mankind is to live that the way that mankind is to experience life in its fullness.
That those who reject those rules who purposefully Flout those world rules and flaunt them and and says I will not I will not obey those things. That I should be accused of hurting them. When we have laws in our land that say you are not to commit acts of pedophilia.
Are you hurting pedophiles. And when you say you're supposed to have laws against bestiality? Are you hurting those that engage in that and? Think and think. Go beyond the emotions. Turn on the mind. Let's think reasonably and logically for just a moment that is passing out of Western culture.
You don't think logically. You think emotionally. Who cares if the result is a mishmash of silliness people wonder Why do we see such massively? Incoherent rulings from judges in our land. That's why.
You still have a few that judge on the basis of law and then you get the rest who throw law out and judge on the basis of motion and the result is horrible. Raise the specter that you are homophobic that.
Is why you laugh?
That is why yeah people are angry gay people are angry and gay people are angry. You're a homophobe. Evidently if you voted for eight you're a homophobe. That Is so irrational it is so absurd that it's it's difficult to even know how to respond to such things.
So if you believe that the definition of marriage Defined within the page of Scripture if you believe what Jesus said then you're a homophobe. Well, then logically by.
Necessary.
Logical compulsion is not Ann Curry and most of Western society Christophobes. Are they not heterophobes? I mean if we're gonna start using this kind of absolutely inane irrational illogic then How can there be any public discourse left?
I don't understand it. How if you're just gonna throw this type of stuff around it's just how is it possible for them to be civil?
I could someone who would maybe deny who would say I don't like what you are. Yeah, you understand.
Donald don't don't sit there and say yeah. Yeah, Rick say no. No, and do you hear what you're saying? I mean the circularity of her of even her questions. Absolutely beyond the pale. I don't like what you are.
You are not defined by the decision that you've made to go against God's law. God's creative decree defines you not your sin first of all and. Then well you you you're just you're just a terrible mean horrible person.
This isn't rational. This isn't even rational journalism. It's it.
Well, I could give you a hundred gay. Of course not. I have always treated them with respect when they come and want to talk to me. I talked to him when the protesters came. We served him water and doughnuts.
Now remember this is a man.
I'm not sure that serving people water and doughnuts is.
A tremendous Tremendous amount of good and he has a reputation as a guy who? Despite his personal views on any issue one way or another tries to stand up and reach across with us. However, however in this case in standing up against gay marriage.
He has unleashed a firestorm.
It's never standing up for the Christian view of marriage. No, no, no. No, it's always standing up against the radical position see. Hopefully it by pointing these things out you'll be able to point them out.
Maybe you know Christmas Day. Maybe you've got some family members who think like Ann Curry. And hopefully I'm encouraging you to point out the irrationality Of this kind of worldview this kind of thinking That precludes any kind of meaningful conversation whatsoever.
And and but that firestorm is with liberals and so just as you just reported earlier liberals are upset about He is being. Some liberals are upset about his choice by Barack Obama to speak as inauguration.
He is also being embraced by conservatives by many conservatives who view that his position Means that Barack Obama is standing up and also reaching across to people on both sides of these issues.
See any difference though. I mean when when the pastor in a religious church gets up and stands up and says my religion Does not permit the marriage between two people of the same gender. That's what happens in that church, and he's the head of that church, and he has every right to say that.
But now.
Here's here's the mindset folks. This is what's coming. You can say whatever you want inside your church, but don't you dare? Live in light of it outside your church. Your religion has no place. This is this is the voice of secularism.
This is the voice of Europe today. You can have your belief inside your church. But don't let it impact the way you do anything outside your church. It cannot impact law it cannot impact society and this is because this constant drumbeat of well you have a religious worldview, and we have the scientific worldview and We don't have to defend our worldview.
We don't even have we. There's not even a clash you see because the religious worldview has nothing to do with science or has nothing to do with history. It's just a myth. It's just what's happens between your ears, and this is what people think.
This is exactly where they are that you it's it's you can see it in scholarship when when people say well We can't tell we can't allow God in history. You know no historian could allow to say well God had anything to do with this.
You know cetera etcetera etcetera. It's this kind of I have my worldview, but I am NOT gonna admit it. I'm not gonna recognize it. I'm not gonna compare it with a Christian worldview or anything like that.
Given that the vast majority of those involved in media Have a a worldview that is thoroughly opposed to God it shouldn't be surprising what we're hearing coming out of these ladies.
Mouths when he comes out and supports proposition 8 banning gay marriage.
He's talking banning gay marriage banning gay marriage banning gay marriage. It's a mantra. They can't even see past it. They even see it themselves. They're slaves to this stuff about secular marriage.
He's talking about marriage that happens without the sanction necessarily of any church. That happens in a government setting. Does he see any difference? Between those two I mean he was coming out against a government proposition not something that happens within the walls of his own.
Congregation he see what happens in the walls. Your congregation is now completely separate. You Christians cannot have anything to do with governmental action or the society around you. And all you gotta do is just look at look at San Francisco.
Look at this wonderful secular city, and how's it turning out? Entire places San Francisco you can't even go at night. You The the good citizens of San Francisco hide in their homes at night in many places.
And that's what they want for all of us. It's interesting. You know one of the answers. He has to that is that the.
The pro that the idea of gay marriage was so well funded in terms of Groups come can't come forth and had basically said you know We're gonna fund the fight against this ban that he felt that it was his responsibility To come out and say wait a minute.
We need to also we need to create a balance here so people hear both sides. One of the issues He said is that you know he cannot. He was concerned that there would be an infringement on his freedom to speak about it because if in fact he came out He was worried that this that this Proposition 8 would prevent him from getting up on the pulpit and speak speaking out against same-sex marriage.
So you know we go into all of that, but also we talked about you know.
Him as a man in our interview on dateline in. Yeah, and so on and so forth. And blah and blah and blah. So there you have there you have that now before we take any phone calls. At the very same time today Fox News.
Pope accused of stoking homophobia after speech. Pope Benedict was accused of stoking homophobia today. After a speech in which he declared that saving humanity from homosexuality was just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction.
The pot have made the remarks yesterday in the end of year addressed to the Curia the Vatican Central Administration. He said that humanity needed to listen to the quote language of creation. End quote.
To understand the intended roles of man and woman and behavior beyond traditional heterosexual relations. I'm sorry. To understand in generals a minimum and behavior, okay. Would have been nice to have had a break there.
And Behavior beyond traditional heterosexual relations was a quote destruction of God's work. End quote. Quote. The tropical forests do deserve our protection. But man is a creature does not deserve any less end quote.
Benedict told store scores of prelates gathered in the Vatican's Clementine Hall Quote. What's needed is something like a human ecology understood in the right sense. It's not simply an outdated metaphysics if the church speaks of the nature of the human person as man and woman.
And Asked if this order of creation be respected. End quote. It is not the first time the Benedict has issued the curious speech to throw out a controversial idea two years ago. He complained that Islam had not yet learned had yet to learn the lessons of the Enlightenment.
But the comments were quickly denounced by gay and lesbian groups both inside and outside the church a Very poorly constructed sentence which sounds like the case of lesbians were protesting what he said about Islam.
Well, we all do that don't wait anyway. And then of course we have to let the gays be the reverend Sharon Ferguson chief executive of the lesbian and gay Christian movement Described Benedict's comments as totally irresponsible and unacceptable in any shape or form.
I'm not sure she said it that way, but I just have a She said it is more the case that we need to be not that we need to be saved from his comments. It is comments like that that justify homophobic bullying that goes on in schools.
And it is comments like that that justify gay bashing hear this this is their mantra. There's no I I have yet to encounter any of these folks that will get beyond this mantra of Thoughtlessness. Throw out the names get the emotions going let's not deal with the issues.
It's amazing absolutely Amazing there are still so many instances of people being killed around the world including in Western society purely and simply because their sexual Orientation of their gender identity therefore you can't talk about this.
You can't talk about this to your fault. Would someone like to logically connect the dots there well there is no connection between the dots, but that's The situation we're facing. In fact it seems like they gave her more quotation than they gave the Pope.
In fact it goes on from there. Yeah, they gave much more space to the Homosexuals to respond to that then to what the Pope said and all the Pope was simply saying was basic fundamental. Straight out of history.
Why is it? That Christians and Jews and Muslims and so on so forth have stood against this kind of stuff because of what they believe about God being the creator of all things and defining for us. What human life is and once you have now the second and third generation of people Who have been removed from the influence of believing that God is their creator now?
We see the irrationality that comes as a result now. We see the human animal The result of random mutation and chance over time you think these things are not connected you better believe they're connected.
Because the only way this kind of irrationality Can survive and can be promulgated is when people do not believe they're created in the image of God they have no transcendent value there is no transcendent truth and.
So you can reason like this you can think like this you can act like this.
And.
Who's to tell you differently and? So you can turn everything upside down. Because just as Romans chapter 1 describes it they've exchanged the truth of God for a lie. They've exchanged the creator for the creation.
They have twisted things upside down and so I think back to that video of those protesters and the one little old lady and. They knocked the cross out of her hands and when they're going after her then you can see you can also see if you watch.
Carefully, they're they're not. They're not just accidentally stepping on the cross. They're stomping on the cross they hate.
Christianity.
They hate it Because it reminds them of their Daily struggle to suppress that conscience that tells them over and over again that what they're doing is sinful in the eyes of God. And If you dare say that and if they get enough money and enough corrupt politicians in their pockets They will want to see you in jail for saying that you better believe it you better believe it.
So in that amazing You it's. And Again, I've said as many times we're gonna take our break and then come back with the phone calls. But I've said as many times I wish there was a way To put a barrier up at the door of the church that when you walk through it all this worldly.
Foolishness.
See thinking like this is thinking with a reprobate mind. These people are thinking with a reprobate mind they cannot think with the mind of Christ spiritual things are foolishness to them. But there is a reprobate mind.
There is a way of thinking where you have been fully conformed the image of the world and you're thinking an exact opposite way that makes it next to impossible to for you outside the renewing work the Holy Spirit to even begin to understand the things The Spirit of God.
And even then when our own people come through that door if we are not Constantly emphasizing to them the need to be in the word the need to be exposed to God's truth. Then the world is going to conform their thinking to its way and then they're gonna start perverting the faith to fit this new way of thought and That takes us back to something I've said many times before theology matters what you believe matters.
And As we live in a society that is not slowly becoming more and more anti-christian. But at an in breakneck pace becoming more anti-christian. It's a little bit like the old frog in the pan idea, you know if you turn the heat up slowly, he'll sit there until he till he fries and that's what we've been doing and We've been going along with worldly ways of thinking and really because it's just a little bit.
It's just a little bit. But now it's going so fast. I don't know how anybody can't see The massive chasm that exists between a godly worldview a worldview that takes God as creator seriously. And the worldview that the world is now demanding of us.
And One of our greatest jobs each and every day fellow believers Is that we must put effort into thinking how we are going to talk to God? To these people. We must understand where they're coming from.
But we must think ahead as to how to in the best way take the subjects of discussion that we would be encountering in our world today and express them in A Christian fashion because we still have the opportunity to do it without getting chucked in jail.
We still do we better take advantage of it. Because I don't know how long that up that's that's gonna last really don't I don't know anyway Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We've already got a couple phone numbers a couple of phone callers after we clear the calls.
I'm gonna be looking at some other subjects. We'll talk to you a little bit a little.
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When this is Rich Pierce.
In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man-centered self-help program The need for a no-nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater. I am convinced that a great many go to church every Sunday yet.
They have never been confronted with their sin. Alpha to make a ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses. Man is sinful and God is holy. That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?
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Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace. Thank you.
And I wonder how long it's gonna be till we have to figure out how to do this. But I could some pirate way, you know, so that they can't find us. Because you know. Off shore. Yeah, that may be. How does that work if we're doing it here?
You have to bounce it off a server up the sea. You still have to go through some American server or something. So, I don't know. Well, we just may well hire it satellite.
Yeah.
Hey. Anyways, I again want to thank everyone who has made it a Merry Christmas for us around here in the sense that my Amazon wish list I've been very thankful for the folks who have helped there. And then I posted what was that Friday or Saturday?
I posted a notice that. It's one of the last. Isn't that one of the last machines we made. Because we used to make our own machines. We used to go up to Fry's and we grab all the components.
I've been putting band-aids and bailing wire on that. Yeah, it's it's. Well, I think it's as old as The na -27 machine in there because that's the last one. It may have been upgraded a couple of times since then.
But yeah, it's all it's old. Yeah, we put in a. Last year, I kept running into a problem where it was overheating. Yeah, so I put in a liquid cooling system and that kind of kept it at bay for a while and now it's ages-age, man.
It's just yeah, I gave up the go. So that's the unit that we use to render Video not the YouTube videos, but the big big big big big videos. There's a huge difference if you're not familiar with these things between the video File size and what you're working with to create a DVD a high quality DVD and what I'm throwing up on YouTube.
Which is 320 by 240, you know, that's my files are there. They're not small. I mean My first computer had a 20 megabyte hard drive on it. So that would that would be about three seconds of most of our modern video but It has to work hard.
Okay, it really has to be dedicated and work hard do its thing. And like I said on the blog it rolled over twitched a few times and sort of like when you nail a cockroach with raid. It gave up the ghost and so we have put up a Little I don't know what you call it item in the bookstore.
That you can donate toward that we've got I think about a third of it I think has been covered so far and I'm very thankful for that but we still need the other two-thirds so I want to let you know about that those of you who have benefited from our videos and DVDs and things like that and it's right as we're trying to take a lot of our older stuff and Get it digitized get it available some of the stuff that we had stuff on videotape that is still not been transferred over to DVD and Those are the ones that people like to buy those debates because I still have hair then.
There's not quite as much of a glow so we want to to get that stuff Out there so you can help us with that look in the bookstore. You can find the The unit there and people keep saying well, why don't you go to a Mac?
You've gone to a Mac. Hey, I've tried to I've tried to sell the Mac to to mr. Pierce, but he likes he likes the programs he's used to and we have them in Windows versions, and they're not cheap programs either so That move is not an inexpensive move unfortunately to be able to do so.
We still got did you not do we not have one machine? That's still win 98.
Yeah, our shipping machine, it's when I need Windows 98. Yeah, yeah, I mean you know is that the one that makes the chorus. It's got a fan in it. That's got a bad bearing in it when it fires up. It needs to warm up.
It's got a little creaky but it you know it still runs the the UPS and the Postal software and it still helps me fill the orders and and someday. It's gonna. We have for 20 some-odd years lived by the credo that we make a penny scream.
Yeah this day. It's bloody murder. Before we let it go and we're trying to be the best stewards that we possibly can but things are starting to age other age. In these times we have to kind of reach out and ask for help.
Yeah, that's right, so well.
So anyways letting you know that's there and so if you've enjoyed those DVDs then keep that keep that in mind. Let's get our phone calls, and I'm not going to go in the right order sorry, but I'm gonna go in the logical order in other words the topical order and Given that this is a question about homosexuality.
Let's go with Justin. Hi Justin. Yes, hello. Hi.
Hi, I'm I'm a Calvinist. I'm a Christian. I appreciate your ministry, and it would always be best to go with the Christian part before the. So we got that. Okay, yeah, I I've noticed that there's two camps basically here.
There's gays outside and gays inside the church, and so my questions kind of twofold. Well.
Let's let's make sure let's let's let's clarify that one right now. What we're talking about the church so in other words. We're talking about those who don't make any.
Pretensions toward any kind of profession of those who do right? Yeah, I think I'm thinking more along the lines of some of your liberal.
Mainstream churches. Right right. Which I which I would consider not to be a part of the Church of Christ, but Christendom.
Yes, right. Okay. I like the church. Visible the church and right exactly there you go, okay? So my question is twofold. First is is our argument our defense against the gays and lesbians the same.
Well in the sense that In Western culture today both camps Are using the same arguments when encountering a Christian? There is a huge body of literature that has been published over the past especially ten years Virginia Mullen Cotton's Kenzoni and and others have been cranking out books most of which cite each other But cranking out all sorts of arguments on every single text that could possibly be raised.
Almost every single text could possibly raised in reference to the subject homosexuality so the unbelieving Homosexuals like to use that to bash Christians because most Christians. Let's face it most evangelicals don't have a clue about the law And how ceremonial and moral laws relate to one another anything like that so they love doing that just for the enjoyment of it.
And then the quote-unquote religious gays Utilize the same type of argumentation to to try to present their their perspectives and from my perspective It's I think I More than a lot of people have a right to say that they don't have a leg to stand on because all you got to do Is go watch my debate with John Shelby Spong?
My debate with Barry Lynn and my debate with Dee Bradshaw and Find out for yourself if religious Homosexuals or defenders of religious homosexuality can even begin to Substantiate their position and meaningful debate and the answer is they cannot there there isn't any question I think in anybody's mind then all three of those debates.
It wasn't even close. It wasn't even a contest that they just could not even begin to defend their position, so.
Think that at least There might be a slight difference in dealing with the religious homosexual in that you're not necessarily Dealing with some of the baggage of overt atheism, but in my experience even the Metropolitan Church Has obviously cannot produce a coherent theology.
Because how could you even begin to define such things as the Trinity or the deity of Christ when you have such a low view? of scripture that is required To come up with the the homosexual interpretation of Romans 1 and things like that, so It does end up being very very similar in in my experience in dealing with both groups.
Okay, and my second part of that question is this kind of a low view. Have you have you seen the book?
I co-authored the same-sex controversy. No, I haven't not getting that one. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's where I would start obviously simply because We we attempted to address all of the key texts that that do come up in this and And answered question after question after question because as you go through this huge body of literature That has been produced and I can guarantee you that was one of the least enjoyable projects I've ever worked on but As you go through them you'll find Three four five six different ways of trying to get around each text and they're all they're all contradictory and sometimes the same author will use multiple contradictory The same text so so we attempted to address all of those things and so, you know It's not difficult to to list these specific texts that have to do with homosexuality.
Obviously you're dealing with Sodom and Gomorrah you're dealing with Leviticus 18 and 20. You're dealing with probably the temple some of the print temple prostitutes in the Asherah in in Kings and other places like that.
You're dealing especially with with the Romans chapter 1 you're dealing first Corinthians chapter 6 and all of them. You know have various ways that homosexual advocates have tried to get around them.
There are scholarly ways that are incoherent and inconsistent, but you have to know what they are. There are all sorts of lexical ways. They try to say arson a coy taste does not mean homosexual and yet these are two terms that come directly out of The Greek Septuagint and Leviticus 18 and 20 that Paul utilizes anyone who read his writings would know exactly what he was referring to it's not even it's not even questionable, but since there are all these quote-unquote scholars and the vast majority of people you're talking to can't read the languages themselves and They're they're they're prejudiced one way or the other already they accept what the quote-unquote scholars have to say without a whole lot of You know fight shall we say on that issue?
But on the other end we also tried in our book to point out that if you limit yourself only to dealing with those texts all you're dealing with are the negative prohibition texts and There's there's a just as in the deity of Christ there.
There's a whole realm of evidence that Christians frequently ignore. It's the same thing here. We need to recognize the vast majority of the evidence we have here is in Jesus own positive teaching about the nature of marriage look at Ephesians chapter 5 and the Description there of the relationship of Christ in his church, and that cannot possibly be made into anything relevant to homosexuality.
Roma. Obviously in Matthew chapter 19 Jesus Takes it as as a given that man is created male and female and that the family is is defined in these ways. That's that's the foundation. And I just wish the people who have the opportunity of being on these programs Would go on the offensive, and I would say what you're saying to us.
Is that we need to abandon what Jesus himself taught Jesus himself taught man and woman? This is the way it's been from the beginning and you are telling Christians We are to be ashamed of what Jesus Christ himself lived and taught that's what they need to be saying instead of the oh yes.
Yes, yes, but but you know I have lots of gay friends. That's not how you respond to this stuff. You need to go on the offensive and Demonstrate what these people are really telling us to do and that is stop believing what you have believed for 2 ,000 years, you know.
All right, I appreciate it. Okay. Thanks, Justin. All right. All right. God bless them. Bye eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's talk with Russ. Hi Russ. Hello, Russ.
Hello, yes, sir. Okay there. All right. Well. Oh well. I don't know what what do you. What? So what's your. I was gonna back you up and.
Yeah, in fact I had the gay invention and I'm not familiar with that one. I had a touchstone article up on my other system this morning, but it was on a different subject.
But if you I'll just you know email on your life.
Well, I understand that there are some who don't even feel that we should use the term homosexual and things like that. I think we know what the issues are. My concern obviously is that Christians especially bring a Christian worldview to this discussion.
So many religious people try to reason on this subject without a specific Christian worldview and people people in the church today are having so much pressure put on them to think like the world and to be ashamed when they think.
As Christ would have us to think we need to Recognize that pressure and fight against it and speak as Christians and not be ashamed of it. And I think that'll that'll help a whole lot. But actually your question on inerrancy will work fine because that's actually gonna transition right into what I wanted to close the program with so Go ahead with it.
It's not gonna be a problem. Well.
Real quick. He that all it also test like using even using sexes. We didn't weren't allowed. If you use sex as a verb you'd have your mouth washed out with soap excuse me. Okay.
Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Inerrancy council, what are you referring to you mean? Chicago state, okay. I just need to know what you're referring. I apologize. That's right. But anyway.
Well, you know it actually it's it's an interesting term.
And and I could see a level of Usefulness to it on on a number of areas. I don't know that we can avoid the discussion of allegations of error. Obviously, but there does I have I have begun to emphasize in some of my sermons of late.
The fact that there I think there has has been a degradation in Christian scholarship and in Christian thinking. Where we it's certainly reflected within seminaries where you have Biblical theology and then you have systematic theology you have Pauline theology you have Johan in theology you have Petrine theology and There is a sense in which many of those coming out of seminaries have this idea.
That you can view the Bible in in an atomized fashion where you can put Paul over here and John over here and Pete over here and you can contrast them and You can in essence set them at at each other's throats.
And in fact, you can even do that within authors as well. And the idea of a holistic view of scripture is is very rare in most theological education today. And yet I have been struck by the fact that these scriptures themselves frequently speak of themselves in that kind of holistic fashion and When Jesus rises from the dead in the longest Narration we have of what Jesus does after the resurrection in the gospel of Luke.
Every his entire focus is To direct and drive his followers to the scriptures and in fact there's this beautiful line Luke 24 where when Jesus meets with the disciples after after the The two on the road to Emmaus now they've come back and when Jesus meets with all of them that that night It says he opened their minds to understand the scriptures now.
The scriptures there are are all of the Old Testament. It's it's Moses and it's David and it's it's it's a holistic perspective. And I think we've lost a lot of that I think that's that that was the foundation of the great heights of theology that that we were able to To explore but don't seem to be exploring any longer because we don't have a foundation to get there.
We're so Muddled in you know trying to Put Paul against James and so on and so forth that the idea of seeing scripture as a whole and that the harmony of Scripture that clearly is part of its own claims for itself.
Just is is not there for a lot of people anymore. And so I would think that The Supra idea would would maybe point toward that that there is a an entire witness of scripture that exists above and beyond just the the You know individual texts there is a harmonious message and to say that I realized I was talking to someone I won't mention Briefly last week and to even mention that kind of high view of scripture.
They they cannot help but laugh they find it to be so ridiculous and so outdated and And I certainly put myself outside the realm of a lot of of quote-unquote acceptable scholarship today to actually believe that there is such a thing but That certainly is what those who came before us believed and I think they were definitely on to something that maybe we in our Technologically laden age have missed so.
Well, obviously obviously many of those in in amongst the founders did believe in the fact.
Today. Well, I know but today. Obviously, they are embarrassed by the backwardsness of many of those founders who expressed with great clarity their belief that Jesus was the Lord of the nations and that that God had revealed his law and That that would be the foundation of this nation and so on so they're embarrassed by those things.
Do you think this is supernatural power in his word to it?
Well, there's there's no question that that we are experiencing God's wrath for for many many reasons. And I think the reprobate, you know. The question is is the reprobate mind that we see in our society the result of God's wrath or what's bringing God's wrath?
Yeah, they think there's there's a lot of a lot of truth that. Hey Ross, I got one more point I get to the on the program today. Thanks for your call. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. Quite true very quickly.
I wanted to touch on another issue. Just in the last four minutes here and that is I was reading a thread on the Puritan board that will sort of guess back into our subject next week on the issue of the text of Scripture and the discussion was about the Westminster Confession of Faith 1 8 and the 1689 is the same thing and it says the Old Testament Hebrew which was the native language the people of God of old and the New Testament in Greek which at the time of the writing of It was most generally known to the nation's being immediately inspired by God and by his singular care and providence.
Kept pure in all ages are therefore Authentical so as in all controversies of religion the church is finally to appeal unto them. The question came up in regards to what this means and there were about half the people who voted in the.
Well half the people who voted one way or the other I think is 2324 and in seven abstentions or something in this poll that was taken about half of those Believed that a person who would use a critical text that is the Nessie Allen text in a Bible Society text other than the quote-unquote received text remember received text is the English version of saying Texas receptus and the received that very language is from an Advertising blurb in 1633 the Elsevier brothers were selling this and they called it the received text.
There has never been a church council. There was never any counselor got together and gathered manuscripts and examined variants and so on and so forth. But it's called the quote-unquote received text and it was the text that was used by default.
For a large period of time and so about half the people who took a position on this said that a Presbyterian elder who holds the Westminster Confession of Faith would be violating his ordination vows to utilize anything other than the TR.
Now the problem I have with this and I would need a lot more time to really develop this and maybe we can do so. Beginning next week with the next program the problem I have with this first of all what TR I mean, I know.
Whenever I talk with folks that have these. You know and I appreciate the high view of Scripture that many of these people have. I have a very high view of Scripture myself obviously. But one of the things I've experienced over the years is when I talk with these folks remember the debate.
It's online the debate I had with Doug Wilson on this when he got into the text rule when he got into the received text ecclesiastical text stuff for a while. When did the wheels fall off for Doug was when I started asking specific questions.
What about this specific verse? What about this specific verse? And that's where you know, they sort of don't even want to go there. Well, I don't know. We don't want to get involved in those things. We want to talk overarching here.
Well, the text doesn't exist outside of those. That's the problem. I Mean, what is the received text? Is it the is it the blue case bound? version from the Trinitarian Bible Society. That that no Greek manuscripts ever read exactly like that.
Well, it's just the general Byzantine. Okay, when did that become the quote-unquote received text? I want to know these things. I think it's important if you could talk about well, it's the text that the church has received when who?
I'm a little uncomfortable with that because that was of course the Roman argument in defense the Vulgate. Against the use of the Greek New Testament was well, the received text is a lot and Vulgate Of course has been used for 1100 years.
I want specifics. So I have a little bit of concern when I hear people defending a text that that contains blatant errors at Revelation 16 5 and other places and doing that on the basis of the authority of The lessons of confession of faith or the London maps confession of faith for that matter so that'll give us a good start I think in the next program as we continue on with our discussion of that and then listening to the Radio program that we were listening to and continuing on here on the dividing line.
Thanks for listening. We'll see you next Tuesday. God bless.
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