What Do Lutherans Believe? ***Bow Tie Dialogues Ep.03***

Get your hammer and nails ready and your bowtie on. It's the Lutheran episode of bowtie dialogues and it begins right now. Welcome back to bowtie dialogues here on conversations with a Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist and today I am joined by a group of Lutheran ministers who are going to dialogue with me about their theology.

Introductions to the Lutheran Guests

I'm going to bring them up now. I'm super excited to welcome all of them, particularly the genius behind Lutheran satire Hans Feeney and it gives me a chance to finally do this for you.

All right.

If you're unfamiliar with that that's from Boy Meets World and I've been wanting to do that for Hans ever since we Became acquainted and he has assembled a crack squad of Lutheran ministers for us a ragtag outfit of rogues misfits and ne 'er-do-wells Who he is now going to introduce to us Hans.

Can you tell us who you brought with you today?

Sure, so I'm pastor Hans Feeney, I'm pastor of Lutheran Church in Crestwood, Missouri just outside of st. Louis. We've brought along with us today pastor Ben Meyer who is somewhere in Ohio, right? Is that correct Ben?

That is correct. Yeah, all right. Ben is is a great guy. He's 6 '7". How tall are you? 6 '5". 6 '5". He has the voice of a 6 foot 7 guy though. So then there's Tapani Sumiyoki who is a pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in England.

So we are in fact that he's not a part of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod because a different country and we generally don't go Across national borders, but we are in fellowship with them. So we we share a common confession of faith.

I've done an interview with with him with Reverend Sumiyoki on my YouTube channel where he talks a bit about the Lutheran Church in England very small church body. But the the folks across the ocean are very blessed to have men like Tapani fighting the good fight over there then we have two gentlemen two other LCMS pastors that I've known my entire life the Reverend Andrew Price who's a pastor here in Missouri as well who is my cousin and his brother Mark who is also my cousin Mark is a pastor as well.

And I love them all. I love all of these folks very dearly. So it's a it's a good group that we have here and me.

Lutheran Identity, Family Background, and Reformation Sunday

Well, I'm very grateful Hans for you helping me to set this up. We've been talking about this since the summer and I said that I wanted to do this in the month of October. Every year our church celebrates Reformation Day on October 31st.

So this is this is going out this week as an homage to the beginning of the Protestant Reformation which began on October 31st 1517 and today we're going to discuss Lutheran Distinctives and in case you didn't know I'm not a Lutheran.

I am a Baptist. So I'm surprised they're even letting me talk. Where do we agree? Where do we disagree which Bible passages would we run to to prove our point? And what do we really think about each other and while having a good time or we're going to answer these questions while having a Good time in the spirit of brotherly affection I'm going to be asking them a series of questions and each of you will have the opportunity to answer.

But as I said in the pre-show if someone answers a question really well You don't have to repeat what they say. You can simply say I agree and we can move on if if that's how it goes. Because we have several questions.

We have a lot to get to in this hour. Also, I do want to say this for you and for my audience that some of the questions I'm asking I already know the answer to. I'm asking on behalf of my audience, but I'm also Wanting to make sure I'm right.

I just said I know the answer but I may be wrong because I'm not a Lutheran. So I want to make sure that what I understand is actually what Lutherans believe. So what we're going to do to begin. Hans already introduced everyone.

But what I want to ask and I think this is an important question is I'd like for each of you. And we'll start with Ben. Actually, we can start with Hans. We'll go around the circle. We'll start with Hans.

Hans. Can you tell me if you were born into a Lutheran home? Or did you become a Lutheran out of another denomination? So I'll begin with you. Sure.

Yeah, so I'm a lifelong Lutheran. I would my guess would be amongst LCMS pastors I a good chunk of guys that I went to seminary with were converts probably 30 to 40 percent of them I would imagine. But I grew up in a Lutheran household.

I come from a really long line of Lutheran pastors on both sides of my family. Both the side that I share with Mark and Andrew as well as on my father's side as well. So basically Lutheran pastors all the way back until the days of the Reformation.

So I have I have been blessed to be Lutheran my entire life to have had a wonderful pastor and my father Throughout throughout my youth to have great Lutheran pastors at seminary and teachers at seminary, etc.

That's wonderful. Now is your father still with us? He is. Yes. He's retired now, which means that he only preaches every Sunday now. So he's filling in filling in a lot of congregations that need what we call what we typically call pulpit supply.

Do you guys use that term pulpit supply? Yep. Yep. Yep. All right. Medical love fest going on here. So Still does a bit of that in out in California now.

Does he enjoy your your humor videos. Does he think they're great. He does. He's very supportive of all that I do. That's great. That's great. Good good to have a supportive father. All right, Ben. I'll switch to you and ask you the same question.

Yeah, I'm a pastor's kid to actually my my dad was the first. Not not like Hans where it goes way back in time. He was you know, all of my ancestors before that were farmers I think so. But I grew up as a as a pastor's kid out in Western, Colorado, Wyoming.

My older brother went to the seminary same time I did and a younger brother who went to the seminary a number of years after we did so. We got a lot of a lot of Lutherans in the family.

That's great and I have to say you're the only one wearing the collar today and When you're from where I am if you see somebody in a collar. They're automatically Catholic because there's only two types of people in the South Baptist Catholic.

So. Do you get that ever people see you in the collar? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's pretty typical. But.

Conversations. A Pro. Just a little pro tip for folks. Catholic priests pretty much universally are clean-shaven. So if you ever see someone wearing the collar and they don't have like the super super long beard.

But if they kind of do the goatee thing like Ben good chance, that's a Lutheran.

Nice, they also don't tend to have a wedding ring. Yes.

That's that's also a helpful tool. Yeah, good point. Good point. Well, let's we'll jump down to Tapani and I'm trying. I'm trying to say I'm sorry sir again. I'm Southern American, which puts me on the very low rung of the the ability to add inflection.

So forgive me.

That's all right. Anything as long as it's not too rude. I'll answer to Like Hans. I'm I come from a long line of Lutheran pastors. I was brought up in a pastor's family. My father was a pastor. His brother was a pastor grandpa their grandfather and all the way down.

So somewhere in the 17th century, I think was the first Lutheran pastor. So yes, I've been I'm a lifelong Lutheran and Yeah, I might I've one of my brothers is a pastor. We're everywhere passes sideways and up and down in the family and I think the What I might add is maybe different because of my my background.

I'm in England, but I'm originally from Finland and my family's Finnish. I Emigrated to to the UK. It's a quarter of a century ago. And and so maybe so bring a slightly different flavor Of Lutheran and then if maybe you get a chance or maybe not to talk about it, but There's a thing called Lutheran pietism, which is very very strong in this in Scandinavia, which is part of my background as well.

That's interesting. Yeah, I'd love to love to hear about that. And I do thank you for wearing the bowtie. Not everybody not everybody does but even on the other shows I've done this with Anglicans. I've done this with Presbyterians.

Even the Presbyterians wouldn't wear it and this is an homage to them. You know, this is the joke that I took my clerical color off.

Especially I wear a clerical color every day and I took it off to put this on so I hope that I get extra extra.

Yes, yes extra credit for sure. All right, mr. Andrew, I'll let you go next.

Yeah, so I'm Andrew Price. I'm Hans's cousin his younger cousin. So he actually had he hasn't known me his whole life. I've known him my whole life. Okay, but. But anyway, so yeah, basically the same stories Hans except on my mom's side my grandma and Grandpa were Lutheran my mom's.

But my mom's cousins were all Calvinists. So that I'm a quarter Dutch. My mom's half Dutch. The only reason I think the only reason why my grandma was a Lutheran was because she was deaf went to a Lutheran death and and So anyway.

So I guess what I'll say also is I am number eight out of twelve children. Mark is my older brother and I have seven older brothers and six of my seven older brothers are Lutheran pastors. One of my younger brothers is a Lutheran pastor.

And then I have two more younger brothers one who is in his last year seminary at Fort Wayne. And then another one who's planning on Going to seminary in a couple years. So.

That is that's amazing. That God had caught would call all of you guys into the ministry now very quickly and I'm just since you mentioned it Andrew. Seminary for Lutherans I know would like a lot a lot of like Presbyterians have to have an MDiv.

Is that similar to what you guys do? Specifically Lutheran seminaries and is there a degree that is required for ministry? Yeah. Yeah, typically you have to have an MDiv. There are alternate routes.

That to to the ministry but those are. We could talk about that more later. But typically yeah, you'd go you get your bachelor's degree and go. I went to seminary in St. Catharines, Ontario. Which is a Canadian.

One of the Canadian seminary is kind of a daughter seminary. Fort Wayne, but I think. That I also studied at Fort Wayne. So it yeah, so that I would have gotten my MDiv there at an STM at Fort Wayne. But yeah, that's typically how it goes.

Nice. Thank you. All right. Well, we'll we'll finish this out with Mark. Mark you are the brother of Andrew the cousin of Hans and one of several pastors in your family. Tell us a little like so we know we know where you came from, but tell us a little bit more about yourself.

Yeah, I've been a pastor for 13 years and I'm very grateful for that for that honor and privilege to preach the gospel and I also you know when I was growing up people would in college and things like that would say the only reason you believe this is because you were raised that way and Initially I tried to defend against this and say I mean, it's true.

I believe because the word was preached right and so that the what's kind of hidden in that in that accusation is that There's no control by God in calling us at all. That it isn't a gracious work that God would call us out of darkness through the generations.

Because faith isn't hereditary that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit of Spirit. But to have the Spirit that is the preaching of the gospel and the administration of the sacraments in your home.

And in the congregation you attend growing up. It's the greatest privilege of my life to have to have the pure gospel. Comforting me and raising me up from dead works to serve the living God. I can't thank God enough and it often frightens me the saying to whom much is given much will be required so I treasure being Being a Lutheran and I don't really see much difference between Between being a Lutheran being a Christian.

So insofar as you are a Christian You are also a Lutheran and insofar as you are not a Lutheran You are not a Christian in that sense. And I think we'll be able to talk about that in the future. So.

The Book of Concord and Lutheran Confessional Standards

All right. Yeah, I'm curious to unpack that a little bit as we go. When we think about the history of Lutheranism, obviously Lutheranism is attached to Luther himself. It bears the name much like when I say I'm a Calvinist.

We're burying the name of a historical figure. But we know that that doesn't mean that necessarily we exalt everything the man did or everything the man ever said. So there are some foundational teachings that come with being a Calvinist.

There's some foundational teachings that come with being a Lutheran. And if someone were wanting to do a Study and say okay. I want to know what Lutherans believe. What are the main confessional documents that a person would would go to and look at if they wanted to know what Lutherans believe and and teach.

Well, so there's a book Called often called the book of Concord also known as the Lutheran confessions. Which is a series of documents written kind of over the course of two generations. Most of its written during the first generation.

Where you have documents like Martin Luther's small and large catechisms. You have the Augsburg confession. Which is what the Lutherans presented to the Holy Roman Emperor Charles the fifth as basically it was their way of kind of clearing the air and saying there's been a lot of talk about what we're teaching and.

Some of it's true. Some of it's not. Here's the stuff that we believe the Roman Catholics responded to the Augsburg confession with a document called Computation so the Lutherans then wrote in response to that The apology of the Augsburg confession.

So apology there meet the more ancient definition meaning explanation. So then there's Luther has a book. The small called articles there's the treatise on the power and primacy of the Pope. Which is a document basically that kind of the two main issues of the Reformation are How man is justified before God and the authority of the Pope?

There's a lot of other issues, but those are kind of the two main ones. So those are addressed in though in those various documents and then in the second generation. Where for historical reasons you had some Calvinist teachings that were coming into Lutheran circles.

And the Lutherans were having to clarify. Hold on a second. Some of this stuff is what we teach some of this isn't. So that you have the second generation of documents that document called the the formula of Concord.

Which has two parts to it and that was written as I said to basically clear written in I think 1577 1577 to to basically clarify. Here's the Calvinist stuff that we're pushing out and rejecting and saying this has never actually been what it is that we taught.

Here's the so the first round of stuff is more is kind of aimed more at Roman Catholicism Clarifying and and positioning themselves against the Roman Catholic Church second generation is against the Calvinist influences.

That's very interesting for me as I know that many of many Calvinist teachers will will Exalt the teachings of Luther and will often cite the teachings of Luther in support of Calvinist teachings. But I have I have heard and you can correct me if I'm wrong that in the in the generations following Luther there were there were things that maybe Luther and believe Luther himself believed but that the that the later teachers Melanchthon and others didn't didn't believe and hold to regarding things like Predestination and and things like that.

Is that is that accurate or we misrepresenting Luther? Do you think the reformers grabbed Luther too tightly. When I say reformers? I mean Calvinists.

Luther, Melanchthon, and the Question of Predestination

Yeah, I'd love to go ahead. Mark oh.

There is in Luther's earlier Time because he was so Augustinian in his commentary on the Romans he does Seem to adopt a double predestinarian view, but that's the only instance that you can really find it.

I.

Was just going to say that I think I think there is a There is often a view even among some Lutherans, but certainly outside Lutheranism that Luther and Lutheranism are coterminous and First of all, Luther didn't agree with himself.

He wrote a huge amount over decades and he was I think I heard I read somewhere that he published Between 50 17 and his death. He published roughly every two weeks and you know, it's he published a huge huge amount.

And his his views changed like, you know, any any sensible persons views change? So Lutherans though we bear the name and though Martin Luther is the chief teacher of our church We we we're not Luther ish.

We're Lutheran and and so the Book of Concord is Is our doctrinal standard and I have to say this is where I have to bring in my my Finnish Inquisition hat because Hans left Hans left out three writings of the Book of Concord which are the three ecumenical creeds Which are also included Shame on you Hans.

Yeah, and within the Book of Concord There's a hierarchy also where the Augsburg Confession is the chief confession of the church and then the other other writings in it are if you like Are included because they They agree with and they expand on and they kind of add detail to what is confessed in the Augsburg Confession.

And so what we would say rather that insofar as Luther agrees with the Book of Concord He's Lutheran the way he disagrees. He's not Okay, we're not because Luther is not the standard The Book of Concord is the standard and in fact Luther only himself of the of the books in the Book of Concord only three come from the pen of Luther and In terms of pages as Philip Melanchthon wrote many more pages in the Book of Concord than did Martin Luther.

Good point good point and that's and that sort of goes makes sense that I like what you said Luther disagreed with himself and. It's funny because I'll listen to a sermon. I preached 20 years ago, and I'll say boy, who's that?

Yeah, who is that that guy, you know, so yeah, there's a reality there. A lot of people think that because I make the funny videos on how many you guys have seen my videos. I do a lot of videos where I play different parts I play different denominations and because I often make the Presbyterian the hero of the of the video.

People often think that I'm Presbyterian, but I'm actually not I'm a Calvinistic Baptist. I don't even use which I normally don't even use the term reformed Baptist because there's there's this whole argument about what makes someone truly Reformed and so I just say I'm Calvinistic and I'm Baptist and people can work that out.

However, they want but I would ask this question Where would be the biggest difference between? What you think I believe and what you all believe and do you think I'm a heretic? That's the the fun question and and be gentle.

I I did invite you all. So but be honest but be gentle yeah.

Calvinist-Baptist Differences, Heresy, and the Lutheran View of Women Pastors

So I could I could start with that Years ago. I wrote a series of articles in the local paper about what the Reformation was about and in one of them I I Repudiated the teaching of free will and synergism and conversion and Like a week later a man from the county called me up and Thanked me for For attacking this this horrible heresy the free will and and so I was excited.

He left a message. I called him back to talk to him and he was a reformed Baptist and so then so then we started talking and You know started off with very brotherly You know a unity brotherly unity on you know against the Armenians but then Then we got on to talking about baptism and baptismal regeneration and the the end the bodily presence in the Lord's Supper and and so we started arguing and So I would say that you know we have a thing called a full we call it a felicitous inconsistency so what it is is that you're inconsistent which is very It's a very Pleasant and convenient thing that you're inconsistent.

Because we would we would say that if you consistently hold to the principles that lead you to reject baptismal regeneration and And the bodily presence in the Lord's Supper, then you would be an historian or an area or something like that.

But thank God you are not consistent With with with your with your teaching on that and so that's very felicitous. So we did not consider you a heretic insofar as you hold to the creeds Nicaea and and and and so forth, but we would we would certainly Be we would certainly warn you against you know denying the Chalcedonian definition and And stuff like that, which we could unpack that as we go go along.

But but that became that you know, if you go if you ask Luther Luther would say you're a heretic.

Yeah, I was gonna say sounds like you had your own little Marburg. Colloquy there with the guy in your town.

Agreeing on everything and then. Yep. Yep. We were there was a tablecloth and then I I.

Would say oh sorry, I'll just say thank you for that. I think mark has something to say. Yeah.

Yeah, the often theologians will talk about the material principle the formal principle and the material principle would be the chief the chief article of the faith that kind of determines things and for the Lutherans we consider it to be the article and justification including the atonement and.

And we would see the Calvinists as beginning from the sovereignty of God and so a huge difference and it's very much related to Christology is that we confess both grace alone as the Calvinists do and universal grace as the art as the Arminians do and.

The Calvinists consider it to be a contradiction as the Arminians do but we hold the paradox as the scriptures teach them. And so that leads us to reject Different letters of tulip, for example, we would confess total depravity.

We would confess half of unconditional election and that God chooses us without any us fulfilling any condition to be saved. But we reject election from eternity to hell. We deny a very sternly limited atonement we deny irresistible grace because the grace of God has always offered through the word.

And Jesus said you were not willing and They believe for a while. Oh and then in perseverance of the Saints. We kind of confess that as long as you are hearing the Word of God. That is apart from the external word and apart from holding on to the Gospels promises.

There is no assurance of salvation. So so though that's those things kind of our emphasis on justification is. It prevents us from taking some of the stances that the Calvinists historically have.

All right, I would also say to that the term I mean, I know you're using the term heretic kind of tongue-in-cheek here, but The term itself is kind of a difficult concept. I mean historic it's more of a hit kind of a historical judgment than than often anything else.

But I think a lot of times too nowadays in Christian dialogue. One of the things that Lutherans are pretty keen on avoiding is this trap that you oftentimes get into. I think in a lot of the Reformed and evangelical world of Am I the bad thing that makes me not a Christian and if you're not willing to say that then my views are acceptable.

So, you know, so am I a heretic? All right well if I'm not a heretic then then this is a fair ball and and we all get to have kind of our own different views on That and and this is pretty contrary to the Lutheran spirit of things.

Which is so, you know, if we look at an issue like baptism or the Lord's Supper. If someone says to me, why are you saying I'm not a Christian because of my views on this to me? That's a that's a worthless question to ask.

The important question is who's right and let's and let's resolve our issues and let's Let's find greater unity by discussing the issues, which I often think doesn't happen. When we say all right. Well, you know.

It would be like it could have a bad marriage if you're white if you and your wife are having a fight and she says Well, are you gonna divorce me over this right and you go? No and she goes, okay. Well, then stop arguing and stop arguing with me about you go.

No, this is this is not the way to build unity so so the question itself is kind of it's kind of It leap from my perspective kind of a non-starter even though I know you meant it tongue-in-cheek.

It reminds me of when I was in high school Arguing with these girls about women pastors, but then they just say so you're saying I'm going to hell. Like right. Yeah, I don't. Maybe oh.

Well that that leads to a question real quick, what's the Lutheran view on women pastors. What is your view and what is this Lutheran groups view. It's discussed. Okay.

The first transvestites, you know, it's gross. Yeah. Oh, it's it's it's contrary to scripture. So what do we have in first Timothy? What do we have in Titus? That's what we go with and you know, the Epistles are quite clear about it and we don't have the option of saying Well society's changed.

We need to change with society. No, we're bound by scripture and When scripture is out of touch with society, then we go with scripture and we also get to be out of touch with society. And that's okay.

In that Paul and both Timothy and Corinthians appeals to the law to the law of Moses and so Created order as well. Yeah, it's contrary to Genesis 1 through 3. Yeah so.

Well, the next question I'm gonna ask unless Toppani did you want to add and I know I'm saying it right now. I'm nervous to say it.

No, no, I think it's enough enough music. Okay, great. Thank you.

The Lord's Supper, Closed Communion, and Sacramental Union

The next question again, this is this is in no way is meant to be a About me, but I'm curious if I personally as a Baptist pastor Came to a Lutheran Church Would I be welcome at the Lord's table. And you're not gonna hurt my feelings if you tell me no.

I'm just curious what the what the view would be. Would I be welcome at the Lord's table? And if and if so, why. If not, why that would be. Can I ask by us asking you a question in return? Yes, sir, please.

If you come to the Lord's table, what is what are you looking for? What are you seeking to receive?

Well, I believe that the Lord's table is representative of the body and blood of Christ. I do not believe that it is the the actual body and blood of Christ. So I take as wingly and perspective on the table.

So if you if you come to the table, you are expecting a piece of bread and a sip of wine. From the prompt at the Lord's table.

I am expecting to have the opportunity to remember the body and blood of Christ Which was once for all shed for the sins of all who believe. Yeah. Yeah.

I I assume that but so but it is what you're looking right. That is not what is an offer. Okay, what is on offer is the true body and blood of Christ in with and under the bread and wine. So what you're seeking at the Lutheran table is not what a Lutheran table is offering.

Okay, that's fair. So that which is and so that's the starting point. So I'd say you shouldn't really want to commune with us If you really believe that you are right and we're wrong on this name since we disagree sure.

We can't be right. No, no, I agree and and I don't necessarily think that I would. I'm asking if I would be able to yes.

No, and and there's a first layer. So what you're shopping for what we're selling are two different things. You know and the secondly there is a you know, I'm attached to this are very clear words of warning by the Apostle about you know about Eating and drinking without discerning the body which within the Lutheran view is not it's not just a metaphor for participation in the church but it is in fact a reference to the reality of what is being offered that is the true body of Christ to part of Christ and We as pastors and every Lutheran pastor every pastor is a steward of these mysteries and that means that it is as you know St. John Chrysostom I think he in one of his writing said in their priest times at the front and he advised some to come and some to Stay away you know.

You know in a sense. I always say every church if it's Christian practice is closed commute. And it's just a question where you draw the line. Sure, you don't you know, we don't very few churches commune the pets of their members, for example.

You know. Some do. Yeah, but there's the reason for that is that there are there are you know. These are these are it's like any powerful thing, you know, if you are on on heart on heart medication you know the the poison is in a dose and so if somebody comes to the Lord's table and Let's say like if I just put it really bluntly and no personally but just bluntly.

You are seeking to come to the Lord's table. And when we give you the sacraments say this is not the body of Christ though. And it is. Then you are in fact engaging in in a practice that is spiritually dangerous to you.

So it's not just about us safeguarding our table so that no outsiders come in and break our fellowship. But we also saying until you confess the reality it's better for you not to. It'd be dangerous for you to consider to receive this sacrament because by your you know.

By your professed publicly professed denial of this reality. You are in fact not deliberately but nevertheless for real. You are actually denying the words of Christ and we don't want you to do that. We want to protect you from that.

Yeah, one thing I would add to that is and Tapani already kind of made this point. But just to to make it pretty explicit because I this comes up all the time. There's a weird kind of postmodern hiccup in the way that a lot of people think about the sacrament so even if they believe that Christ is bodily present in the sacrament as we Lutherans confess a lot of people still have this idea that you that it's Through the power of our faith that makes the body and blood of Christ present.

So if you believe it, he's present and if you don't he's not. This is not something that that Lutherans believe. So we believe that 100 of the people who Kneel at the altar and receive the bread and wine are receiving the body and blood of Jesus.

Your faith doesn't make Christ present. But your faith does determine whether Christ being present is a blessing for you or whether it's judgment for you. So again, yeah the the medicine analogy I think is really quite helpful in that we want the medicine to help you and heal you and we don't want the medicine to harm you.

And we believe that in 1st Corinthians when Paul talks about communing unrighteously that. That that this is that that's that condemnation that you would receive from commuting unrighteously is one that we don't want to see happen so we Do our best to ensure that everyone who communes has been in Shares our confession of the gospel and the sacraments.

And has been instructed in what we believe and has publicly stated typically through what we call the right of confirmation. That they share that confession of faith.

Yeah, and we wouldn't want to ask someone to lie and come forward as if they believe these things when they don't so. We you know, we have enough respect for people to say hey you don't believe the same thing that we believe.

So that's just another level of that, you know, the the other things that Tapani already talked about I think are our primary. But that's another level to it that We we would not want you to lie by coming forward because by coming forward you're professing you believe What we believe you.

Believe what we believe. Teach and confess at this altar at this church.

That's fair. I want to dig a little deeper into an important question and I am Uncertain of the language. So if I say something that is incorrect Linguistically, please correct me, but I I know that the Roman Catholic Communion teaches What is known as transubstantiation?

Which means that the body and blood are physically present in the substance. But the accidents remain the same the the bread is still bread. It tastes like bread feels like bread but the substance has changed and the same for the wine the wine still tastes like wine and and and and is essentially wine is in its accidents, but in its substance there has been a change of The the the substance to the to the blood of Christ however within Lutheran teaching The the what is the distinction that you would make?

But between yourselves and the Roman Catholic teaching in insofar as Within Roman Catholicism. The idea is the priest is bringing Christ down to again be Laid a sacrifice on the altar and for the people to again receive the forgiveness of sins through this Representation of the sacrifice of Christ is that Conducive to what you are teaching or are you teaching something else because I've heard the term con Substantiate this was the word I was afraid to use because I've heard the term con Substantiation and I've also almost get got punched in the eye by Lutherans for saying it.

So I've stopped saying it. But but since we're doing this digitally and I think that I could take maybe three of six of three of y 'all. But no no. No, no, and I'm not gonna tell you which three it is, but Well, he was one of the ones I couldn't.

No, but but the reality is what if I was going to explain the Lutheran position correctly, it certainly wouldn't be transubstantiation. But con substantiation is also one that is repudiated. So tell me in the in the in the terms that would be easiest to explain What is it that you believe is happening in the table and and what words do you use?

Well, we use the small catechism definition. There you go. It is the true body and blood of Christ under the bread and wine given of us Christians to eat and to drink. Instituted by Christ himself. So it's the substantiation language is the language of RCT limited physics.

Which is brought in to try to explain how and we say we don't explain how we say we confess what? So we say it is bread. The bread is the body. Hans has talked about the bodily presence and things and as Hans knows I actually kind of bought even at the language of presence because Christ doesn't say I am present.

He says this is my body. So the bread is the body the wine is the blood and we don't mess around with substances and accidents and things like that. We just confess the identity for like the identity or the the presentation or the given to us of the body.