What Do Lutherans Believe? ***Bow Tie Dialogues Ep.03***

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Get your hammer and nails ready and your bowtie on. It's the Lutheran episode of Bowtie Dialogues and it begins right now

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Welcome back to Bowtie Dialogues here on Conversations with a Calvinist My name is Keith Foskey and I am a

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Calvinist and today I am joined by a group of Lutheran ministers who are going to dialogue with me about their theology

00:39

I'm going to bring them up now I'm super excited to welcome all of them, particularly the genius behind Lutheran satire

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Hans Feeney, and it gives me a chance to finally do this for you

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All right, if you're unfamiliar with that that's from Boy Meets World I've been wanting to do that for Hans ever since we

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Became acquainted and he has assembled a crack squad of Lutheran ministers for us a ragtag outfit of rogues misfits and ne 'er -do -wells

01:13

Who he is now going to introduce to us Hans. Can you tell us who you brought with you today? Sure, so I'm pastor

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Hans Feeney. I'm pastor of Lutheran Church in Crestwood, Missouri just outside of st. Louis We've brought along with us today pastor

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Ben Meyer who is somewhere in Ohio, right? Is that correct Ben? That is correct Yeah, all right.

01:33

Ben is is a great guy. He's 67 how tall are you? 6 '5 6 '5.

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He has the voice of a 6 foot 7 guy though So then there's top of knee a semi Yogi who is a pastor of the evangelical are the evangelical

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Lutheran Church in England? So we are in fact He's not a part of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod because a different country and we generally don't go across national borders

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But we are in fellowship with them. So we we share a common confession of faith I've done an interview with with him with Reverend semi

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Yogi on my YouTube channel where he talks a bit about the Lutheran Church in England very small church body But the the folks across the ocean are very blessed to have men like top of knee fighting the good fight over there then we have two gentlemen two other

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LCMS pastors that I've known my entire life the Reverend Andrew Price who's a pastor here in Missouri as well who is my cousin and his brother

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Mark who is also my cousin mark as a pastor as well And I love them all.

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I love all of these folks very dearly. So it's a it's a good group that we have here and me Well, I'm very grateful

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Hans for you helping me to set this up We've been talking about this since the summer and I said that I wanted to do this in the month of October Every year our church celebrates

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Reformation Day on October 31st So this is this is going out this week as an homage to the beginning of the

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Protestant Reformation Which began on October 31st 1517 and today we're going to discuss

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Lutheran Distinctives and in case you didn't know I'm not a Lutheran. I am a

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Baptist. So I'm surprised they're even letting me talk Where do we agree? where do we disagree which

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Bible passages would we run to to prove our point and what do we really think about each other and While having a good time or we're going to answer these questions while having a good time in the spirit of brotherly affection

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I'm going to be asking them a series of questions and each of you will have the opportunity to answer

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But as I said in the pre show if someone answers a question really well You don't have to repeat what they say You can simply say

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I agree and we can move on if if that's how it goes because we have several questions We have a lot to get to in this hour

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Also, I do want to say this for you and for my audience that some of the questions I'm asking I already know the answer to I'm asking on behalf of my audience, but I'm also

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Wanting to make sure I'm right I just said I know the answer but I may be wrong because I'm not a

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Lutheran So I want to make sure that what I understand is actually what Lutherans believe So what we're gonna do to begin

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Hans already introduced everyone But what I want to ask and I think this is an important question is

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I'd like for each of you And we'll start with Ben Actually, we can start with Hans. We'll go around the circle.

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We'll start with Hans Hans Can you tell me if you were born into a Lutheran home or did you become a

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Lutheran out of another? Denomination, so we'll begin with you. Sure. Yeah, so I'm a lifelong

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Lutheran I would my guess would be amongst LCMS pastors a good chunk of guys that I went to seminary with were converts probably 30 to 40 percent of them

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I would imagine But I grew up in a Lutheran household I come from a really long line of Lutheran pastors on both sides of my family

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Both the side that I share with Mark and Andrew as well as on my father's side as well So basically

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Lutheran pastors all the way back until the days of the Reformation So I have I have been blessed to be

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Lutheran my entire life to have had a wonderful pastor and my father Throughout throughout my youth to have great

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Lutheran pastors at seminary and teachers at seminary, etc That's wonderful. Now. Is your father still with us?

05:27

He is. Yes. He's retired now Which means that he only preaches every Sunday now So he's filling in filling in a lot of congregations that need what we call what we typically call pulpit supply

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Do you guys use that term pulpit supply? Yep. Yep. Yep. All right Medical love fest going on here.

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So Still does a bit of that in out in California now Does he enjoy your your humor videos?

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Does he think they're great? He does. He's very supportive of all that I do. That's great

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That's great. Good good to have a supportive father. All right, Ben. I'll switch to you and ask you the same question

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Yeah, I'm a pastor's kid to actually my my dad was the first not not like Hans where it goes way back in time.

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He was you know, all of my Ancestors before that were farmers, I think so But I grew up as a as a pastor's kid out in Western, Colorado, Wyoming My older brother went to the seminary same time

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I did and a younger brother who went to the seminary a number of years after we did so We got a lot of a lot of Lutherans in the family

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That's great and I have to say you're the only one wearing the collar today and When you're from where I am if you see somebody in a collar

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They're automatically Catholic because there's only two types of people in the South Baptist and Catholic. So Do you get that ever people see you in the collar?

06:53

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's pretty typical But Conversations a

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Little pro tip for folks Catholic priests pretty much universally are clean -shaven

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So if you ever see someone wearing the collar and they don't have like the super super long beard

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But if they kind of do the goatee thing like Ben good chance, that's a Lutheran Nice, they also don't tend to have a wedding ring.

07:20

Yes That's that's also a helpful tool. Yeah, good point. Good point. Well, let's we'll jump down to Tapani and I'm trying

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I'm trying to say I'm sorry, sir again I'm Southern American, which puts me on the very low rung of the the ability to add inflection.

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So forgive me That's all right. Anything as long as it's not too rude. I'll answer to Like Hans.

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I'm I come from a long line of Lutheran pastors. I was brought up in a pastor's family My father was a pastor.

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His brother was a pastor grandpa their grandfather and all the way down Somewhere in the 17th century, I think was the first Lutheran pastor.

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So yes, I've been I'm a lifelong Lutheran and Yeah, I might

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I've one of my brothers is a pastor we're everywhere passes sideways and up and down in the family and I think the

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What I might add is maybe different because of my my background I'm in England, but I'm originally from Finland and my family's

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Finnish. I Emigrated to to the UK. It's a quarter of a century ago. And and so maybe so bring a slightly different flavor of Lutheran and then if maybe you'll get a chance or maybe not to talk about it, but There's a thing called

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Lutheran pietism, which is very very strong in this in Scandinavia, which is a part of my background as well

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That's interesting. Yeah, I'd love to love to hear about that. And I do thank you for wearing the bowtie Not everybody not everybody does but even on the other shows

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I've done this with Anglicans I've done this with Presbyterians even the Presbyterians wouldn't wear it and this is an homage to them You know, this is the joke that I took my clerical color off Especially I wear a clerical color every day and I took it off to put this on so I hope that I get extra extra

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Yes, yes extra credit for sure. All right, mr. Andrew, I'll let you go next Yeah, so I'm Andrew Price, I'm Hans's cousin his younger cousin

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So he actually had he hasn't known me his whole life. I've known him my whole life.

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Oh, okay, but But anyway, so yeah, basically the same story as Hans except on my mom's side

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My grandma and grandpa were Lutheran my mom's But my mom's cousins were all

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Calvinists So that I'm a quarter Dutch. My mom's half Dutch The only reason

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I think the only reason why my grandma was a Lutheran was because she was deaf went to a Lutheran death and and then

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So anyway, so I guess what I'll say also is I am number eight out of twelve children

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Mark is my older brother and I have seven older brothers and Six of my seven older brothers are

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Lutheran pastors One of my younger brothers is a Lutheran pastor

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And then I have two more younger brothers one who is in his last year of seminary at Fort Wayne And then another one who's planning on Going to seminary in a couple years.

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So I'll leave it at that. That is that's amazing That God had caught would call all of you guys into the ministry now very quickly

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And I'm just since you mentioned it Andrew seminary for Lutherans I know would like a lot a lot of like Presbyterians have to have an

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MDiv Is that similar to what you guys do? Is there specifically Lutheran seminaries and is there a degree that is required for ministry?

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Yeah. Yeah, typically you have to have an MDiv There are alternate routes that to to the ministry but those are

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We could talk about that more later But typically yeah, you'd go you get your bachelor's degree and then go

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I went to seminary in St. Catharines, Ontario Which is a

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Canadian one of the Canadian seminaries kind of a daughter seminary Fort Wayne, but I think

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That I also studied at Fort Wayne. So it yeah, so that I would have gotten my MDiv there then STM at Fort Wayne But yeah, that's typically how it goes

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Nice. Thank you. All right. Well, we'll we'll finish this out with Mark Mark, you are the brother of Andrew the cousin of Hans and one of several pastors in your family

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Tell us a little like so we know we know where you came from, but tell us a little bit more about yourself yeah,

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I've been a pastor for 13 years and I'm very grateful for that for that honor and privilege to preach the gospel and I also you know when

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I was growing up people Would in college and things like that would say the only reason you believe this is because you were raised that way and Initially I tried to defend against this and say

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I mean, it's true. I believe because the word was preached right and so that the what's kind of hidden in that in that accusation is that There's no control by God in calling us at all

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That it isn't a gracious work that God would call us out of darkness through the generations

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Because faith isn't hereditary that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit of Spirit but to have the

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Spirit that is the preaching of the gospel and the administration of the sacraments in your home and In the congregation you attend growing up It's the greatest privilege of my life to have to have the pure gospel comforting me and raising me up from dead works to serve

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The Living God I can't thank God enough and it often frightens me the saying to whom much is given much will be required so I treasure being

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Being a Lutheran and I don't really see much difference between Between being a

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Lutheran being a Christian. So insofar as you are a Christian You are also a

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Lutheran and insofar as you are not a Lutheran You are not a Christian in that sense, and I think we'll be able to talk about that in the future.

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So All right. Yeah, I'm curious to unpack that a little bit as we go When we think about the history of Lutheranism, obviously

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Lutheranism is attached to Luther himself It bears the name much like when I say

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I'm a Calvinist We're bearing the name of a historical figure But we know that that doesn't mean that necessarily we exalt everything the man did or everything the man ever said

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So there are some foundational teachings that come with being a Calvinist There's some foundational teachings that come with being a

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Lutheran and if someone were wanting to do a study and say, okay I want to know what

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Lutherans believe. What are the main confessional documents that a person would would go to and look at if they wanted to know what

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Lutherans believe and and teach Well, so there's a the book called often called the book of Concord also known as the

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Lutheran confessions Which is a series of documents written kind of over the course of two generations most of its written during the first generation

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Where you have documents like Martin Luther's small and large catechisms You have the

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Augsburg Confession, which is what the Lutherans presented to the Holy Roman Emperor Charles the fifth as basically it was their way of kind of clearing the air and saying there's been a lot of talk about what we're teaching and Some of its true some of its not here's the stuff that we believe the

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Roman Catholics responded to the Augsburg Confession with a document called Computation so the Lutherans then wrote in response to that The apology of the

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Augsburg Confession. So apology there meet the more ancient definition meaning explanation So then there's

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Luther has a book The small called articles there's the treatise on the power and primacy of the

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Pope Which is a document basically that kind of the two main issues of the Reformation are How man is justified before God and the authority of the

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Pope? There's a lot of other issues, but those are kind of the two main ones So those are addressed in though in those various documents and then in the second generation

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Where for historical reasons you had some Calvinist teachings that were coming into Lutheran circles And the

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Lutherans were having to clarify hold on a second Some of this stuff is what we teach some of this isn't

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So that you have the second generation of documents that document called the the formula of Concord Which has two parts to it and that was written as I said to basically clear written in I think 1577 1577 to to basically clarify

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Here's the Calvinist stuff that we're pushing out and rejecting and saying this has never actually been what it is that we taught

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Here's the so the first round of stuff is more is kind of aimed more at Roman Catholicism clarifying and and positioning themselves

16:14

Against the Roman Catholic Church second generation is against the Calvinist influences that's very interesting for me as I know that many of many

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Calvinist teachers will will Exalt the teachings of Luther and will often cite the teachings of Luther in support of Calvinist teachings

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But I have I have heard and you can correct me if I'm wrong that in the in the generations following Luther there were there were things that maybe

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Luther and believe Luther himself believed but that the that the later teachers Melanchthon and others didn't didn't believe and hold to regarding things like Predestination and and things like that.

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Is that is that accurate or we misrepresenting Luther? Do you think the reformers grab Luther too tightly when

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I say reformers? I mean Calvinists Can I come back at that Yeah, I'd love sorry. Good mark mark.

17:03

Go ahead mark. Oh, uh, there is in Luther's earlier Time because he was so Augustinian in his commentary on the

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Romans. He does Seem to adopt a double predestinarian view, but that's the only instance that you can really find it.

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I Was just going to say that I think I think there is a There is often a view even among some

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Lutherans, but certainly outside Lutheranism that Luther and Lutheranism are coterminous And first of all

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Luther didn't agree with himself He wrote a huge amount over decades and he was I think I heard

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I read somewhere that he published Between 50 70 and his death. He published roughly every two weeks and you know

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It's he published a huge huge amount And his his views changed like, you know, any any sensible person's views change

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So Lutherans though we bear the name and though Martin Luther is the chief teacher of our church We we we're not

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Luther ish. We're Lutheran and and so the Book of Concord is our doctrinal standard and I have to say this is where I have to bring in my

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My so Finnish Inquisition hat because Hans left Hans left out three writings of the

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Book of Concord Which are the three ecumenical creeds which are also included? Shame on you

18:16

Hans. Yeah And within the Book of Concord, there's a hierarchy also where the Augsburg Confession is the chief confession of the church and then the other other writings in it are if you like are included because they

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They agree with and they expand on and they kind of add detail to what is confessed in the

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Augsburg Confession And so what we would say rather that insofar as Luther agrees with the

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Book of Concord He's Lutheran and where he disagrees. He's not Okay, we're not because Luther is not the standard the

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Book of Concord is the standard and in fact Luther only Himself of the of the books in the Book of Concord only three come from the pen of Luther and In terms of pages, it's fake

18:57

Melanchthon wrote many more pages in the Book of Concord than did Martin Luther Good point.

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Good point. And that's and that sort of goes Makes sense that I like what you said

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Luther disagreed with himself and it's it's funny because I'll listen to a sermon I preached 20 years ago and I'll say boy, who's that?

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You know, who is that that guy? So, yeah, there's a reality there A lot of people think that because I make the funny videos on how many you guys have seen my videos

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I do a lot of videos where I play different parts I play different denominations and because I often make the

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Presbyterian the hero of the of the video People often think that I'm Presbyterian, but I'm actually not

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I'm a Calvinistic Baptist I don't even use the I normally don't even use the term Reformed Baptist because there's there's this whole argument about what makes someone truly

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Reformed and so I just say I'm Calvinistic and I'm Baptist and people can work that out

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However, they want but I would ask this question. Where would be the biggest difference between What you think

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I believe and what you all believe and do you think I'm a heretic? That's the the fun question and and be gentle.

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I I did invite you all So but be honest but be gentle yeah, so I could

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I could start with that Years ago. I wrote a series of articles in the local paper about what the

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Reformation was about and in one of them I I Repudiated the teaching of free will and synergism and conversion and Like a week later a man from the county called me up and Thanked me for For attacking this this horrible heresy the free will and and so I was excited

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He left a message. I called him back to talk to him and he was a Reformed Baptist and so then so then we started talking and You know started off with very brotherly

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You know a unity brotherly unity on you know against the

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Armenians but then Then we got on to talking about baptism and baptismal regeneration and the the end the bodily presence in the

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Lord's Supper and and so we started arguing and So I would say that you know, we have a thing called a full we call it a felicitous inconsistency so what it is is that you're inconsistent, which is very

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It's a very Pleasant and convenient thing that you're inconsistent Because we would we would say that if you consistently hold to the principles that lead you to reject baptismal regeneration and And the bodily presence in the

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Lord's Supper, then you would be an historian or an Aryan or something like that But thank

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God you are not consistent With with with your with your teaching on that and so that's very felicitous

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So we did not consider you a heretic insofar as you hold to the creeds Nicaea and and and and so forth, but we would we would certainly

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Be we would certainly warn you against, you know denying the

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Chalcedonian definition and And stuff like that which we could unpack that as we go go along but but that became

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That you know, if you go if you ask Luther Luther would say you're a heretic Yeah, I was gonna say sounds like you had your own little

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Marburg colloquy there with the guy in your town agreeing on everything and then

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Yep. Yep. We were there was a tablecloth and then I I Would say oh, sorry,

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I was just say thank you for that. I think mark has something to say. Yeah yeah, the often theologians will talk about the material principle the formal principle and the the material principle would be the chief the chief article of the faith that kind of determines things and for the

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Lutherans we consider it to be the article and justification including the atonement and and we would see the

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Calvinists as beginning from the sovereignty of God and so a huge difference and it's very much related to Christology is that we confess both grace alone as the

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Calvinists do and universal grace as the are as the Arminians do and The Calvinists consider it to be a contradiction as the

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Arminians do but we hold the paradox as the scriptures teach them And so that leads us to reject

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Different letters of tulip, for example, we would confess total depravity

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We would confess half of unconditional election and that God chooses us without any us fulfilling any condition to be saved

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But we reject election from eternity to hell We deny a very sternly limited atonement we deny irresistible grace because the grace of God has always offered through the word and Jesus said you were not willing and They believe for a while.

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Oh and then in perseverance of the Saints We kind of confess that as long as you are hearing the Word of God That is apart from the external word and apart from holding on to the

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Gospels promises. There is no assurance of salvation So so though that's those things kind of our emphasis on justification is

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It prevents us from taking some of the stances that the Calvinists historically have

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All right, I would also say to that the term I mean, I know you're using the term heretic kind of tongue -in -cheek here, but The term itself is kind of a difficult concept

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I mean historic it's more of a hit kind of a historical judgment than than often anything else

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But I think a lot of times to nowadays in Christian dialogue One of the things that Lutherans are pretty keen on avoiding is this trap that you oftentimes get into I think in a lot of the

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Reformed and evangelical world of am I the bad thing that makes me not a

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Christian and if you're Not willing to say that then my views are acceptable. So, you know, so am

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I a heretic? all right, well if I'm not a heretic then then this is a fair ball and and we all get to have kind of our

25:40

Own different views on that and and this is pretty contrary to the Lutheran spirit of things Which is so, you know, if we look at an issue like baptism or the

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Lord's Supper If someone says to me, why are you saying I'm not a Christian because of my views on this to me?

25:54

that's a that's a worthless question to ask the the important question is who's right and let's and let's resolve our issues and let's

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Let's find greater unity by discussing the issues, which I often think doesn't happen when we say all right, well

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You know It would be like it could have a bad marriage if you're white if you and your wife are having a fight and she says

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Well, are you gonna divorce me over this right and you go? No and she goes, okay Well, then stop arguing stop arguing with me about you go.

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No, this is this is not the way to build unity So so the question itself is kind of it's kind of From my perspective kind of a non -starter, even though I know you meant it tongue -in -cheek

26:36

It reminds me of when I was in high school Arguing with these girls about women pastors, but then they just say so you saying

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I'm going to hell Oh, well that that leads to a question real quick, what's the

26:52

Lutheran view on women pastors? What is your view and what is this

26:58

Lutheran groups view it's disgusting, okay The first transvestites, you know, it's gross.

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Yeah. Well, it's it's it's contrary to Scripture So what do we have in first Timothy? What do we have in Titus? That's what we go with and you know, the epistles are quite clear about it and we don't have the option of saying

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Well society has changed we need to change with society No, we're bound by Scripture and when

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Scripture is out of touch with society Then we go with Scripture and we also get to be out of touch with society and that's okay

27:38

And that Paul and both Timothy and Corinthians appeals to the law to the law of Moses and so Created order as well.

27:47

Yeah, it's contrary to Genesis 1 through 3. Yeah so Well, the next question

27:54

I'm gonna ask unless Toppani did you want to add and I know

28:00

I'm saying it right now. I'm nervous to say it No, no,

28:07

I think it's enough enough music. Okay, great. Thank you the next question again, this is this is in no way is meant to be a

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About me, but I'm curious if I personally as a Baptist pastor

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Came to a Lutheran Church Would I be welcome at the Lord's table and you're not gonna hurt my feelings if you tell me no

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I'm just curious what the what the view would be Would I be welcome at the Lord's table? And if and if so, why if not why that would be can

28:36

I ask by us asking you a question in return? Yes, sir, please If you come to the

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Lord's table, what is what are you looking for? What are you seeking to receive? Well, I believe that the

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Lord's table is representative of the body and blood of Christ I do not believe that it is the the actual body and blood of Christ So I take as wingly and perspective on the table

28:59

So if you if you come to the table, you are expecting a piece of bread and a sip of wine from from at the

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Lord's table, I Am expecting to have the opportunity to remember the body and blood of Christ, which was once for all shed for the sins

29:14

Yeah, yeah, I assume that but so but it is what you're looking right.

29:19

That is not what is an offer Okay, what is on offer is the true body and blood of Christ in with and under the bread and wine

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So what you're seeking at the Lutheran table is not what a Lutheran table is offering. Okay, that's fair So that which is and so that's the starting point.

29:34

So I say you shouldn't really want to commune with us If you really believe that you are right and we're wrong on this name since we disagree

29:42

Sure Yeah, we can't be right no, no, no

29:48

I agree and and I don't necessarily think that I would I'm asking if I would be able To yes, no and and there's a first layer

29:55

So what you're shopping for what we're selling are two different things. Are you? You know and the secondly there is a you know,

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I'm attached to this are very clear words of warning by the Apostle about you know about Eating and drinking without discerning the body which within the

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Lutheran view is not it's not just a metaphor for participation in the church but it is in fact a reference to the reality of what is being offered that is the true body of Christ to blood of Christ and We as pastors and every

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Lutheran pastor every pastor is a steward of these mysteries and that means that it is as you know

30:35

St. John Chrysostom I think he in one of his writings said in their priest times at the front and he advised some to come and some to Stay away

30:43

You know You know in a sense. I always say every church if it's

30:48

Christian practice is closed commute And it's just a question where you draw the line Sure, you don't you know, we don't very few churches commune the pets of their members, for example

30:58

You know some do Unfortunately, yeah That's very rare happen, but only mammals only mammals

31:09

Yeah, but there's the reason for that is that there are there are you know These are these are is like any powerful thing, you know, if you are on on heart on heart medication you know the the poison is in a dose and so if somebody comes to the

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Lord's table and Let's say like if I just put it really bluntly and in a person about just bluntly

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You are seeking to come to the Lord's table and when we give you the sacrament say this is not the body of Christ though And it is

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Then you are in fact engaging in in a in a practice that is spiritually dangerous to you

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So it's not just about us safeguarding our table so that no outsiders come in and break our fellowship but we also saying until you confess the reality it's better for you not to It'd be dangerous for you to receive this sacrament because by your you know by your

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Professed publicly professed denial of this reality you are in fact not deliberately but nevertheless for real

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You are actually denying the words of Christ and we don't want you to do that. We want to protect you from that Yeah, one thing

32:16

I would add to that is and top and he already kind of made this point But just to to make it pretty explicit because I this comes up all the time

32:24

There's a weird kind of postmodern hiccup in the way that a lot of people think about the sacrament so even if they believe that Christ is bodily present in the sacrament as we

32:36

Lutherans confess a lot of people still have this idea that you that it's Through the power of our faith that makes the body and blood of Christ present

32:44

So if you believe it, he's present and if you don't he's not This is not something that Lutherans believe

32:51

So we believe that 100 % of the people who kneel at the altar and receive the bread and wine are receiving the body and blood of Jesus Your faith doesn't make

33:01

Christ present But your faith does determine whether Christ being present is a blessing for you or whether it's judgment for you

33:10

So again, yeah the the medicine analogy I think is really quite helpful in that We want the medicine to help you and heal you and we don't want the medicine to harm you

33:20

And we believe that in 1st Corinthians when Paul talks about communing unrighteously that that that this is that that's that condemnation that you would receive from commuting unrighteously is one that we don't want to see happen so we

33:33

Do our best to ensure that everyone who communes has been in Shares our confession of the gospel and the sacraments

33:42

And has been instructed in what we believe and has publicly stated typically through what we call the right of confirmation

33:48

That they share that confession of faith yeah, and we wouldn't want to ask someone to lie and come forward as if they believe these things when they don't so We you know, we have enough respect for people to say hey, you don't believe the same thing that we believe so that's just another level of that, you know, the the other things that Tapani already talked about I think are our primary but that's another level to it that We we would not want you to Lie by coming forward because by coming forward you're professing you believe what we believe you

34:26

Believe what we believe teach and confess at this altar at this church

34:33

That's fair. I want to dig a little deeper into an important question and I am

34:42

Uncertain of the language, so if I say something that is incorrect

34:47

Linguistically, please correct me But I I know that the

34:53

Roman Catholic Communion teaches What is known as transubstantiation? Which means that the body and blood are physically present in the substance

35:03

But the accidents remain the same the the bread is still bread It tastes like bread feels like bread but the substance has changed and the same for the wine the wine still tastes like wine and and and is essentially wine is in its accidents, but in its substance there has been a change of the the the substance to the to the blood of Christ However within Lutheran teaching the the what is the distinction that you would make?

35:32

but between yourselves and the Roman Catholic teaching in insofar as Within Roman Catholicism the idea is the priest is bringing

35:40

Christ down to again be Laid a sacrifice on the altar and for the people to again receive the forgiveness of sins through this

35:50

Representation of the sacrifice of Christ is that Conducive to what you are teaching or are you teaching something else because I've heard the term con

35:59

Substantiate this was the word I was afraid to use because I've heard the term con Substantiation and I've also almost get got punched in the eye by Lutherans for saying it so I've stopped saying it

36:09

But but since we're doing this digitally, and I think that I could take maybe three of six three of y 'all

36:14

No, and I'm not gonna tell you which three it is but Well he was one of the ones

36:25

I couldn't no No, but but the reality is what if I was going to explain the

36:31

Lutheran position correctly, it certainly wouldn't be transubstantiation But con substantiation is also one that is repudiated.

36:37

So tell me in the in the in the terms that would be easiest to explain What is it that you believe is happening in the table?

36:45

And and what words do you use? Well, we use this more catechism definition

36:51

There you go The true body and blood of Christ under the bread of mine given of us Christians to eat and to drink

36:56

Instituted by Christ himself. So it's the substantiation language is the language of RCT limited physics

37:02

Which is brought in to try to explain how and we say we don't explain how we say we confess what?

37:09

So we say it is bread The bread is the body and Hans has talked about the bodily presence and things and as Hans knows

37:16

I actually kind of book even at the language of presence because Christ doesn't say

37:21

I am present He says this is my body So the bread is the body the wine is the blood and we don't mess around with substances and accidents and things like that We just confess the identity for like the identity or the the presentation or the given to us of the body

37:37

With the bread how that's God's business I don't have to worry about that any more than I have to worry about how my touchscreen works

37:43

I don't know how it works, but I know how to use it and I need it of that And I think sometimes the term real presence gets used but that's not really the language we use in our confessions.

37:54

We use sacramental Union And the idea being yeah, the the body and blood of Christ are

38:01

There in with and under the bread and the wine. So is the bread and wine still there? Yeah, is

38:06

Christ's body and blood there? Yes, according to Christ's Word and promise That's what we confess because that's what

38:13

Christ has said. I Promise I I could do this all day

38:19

I would love to just ask more questions and I want to move on but I but I have to ask just one more and This is in regard to the

38:27

Calvinistic view now again I've already admitted to being more swing lean in this and by the way Hans I love your video where Luther starts the

38:34

Reformation and Calvin. It's my reference. He on And Swingly I just love that because it's so true that you know, we call ourselves

38:44

Reformed but you know Luther was the well I guess all that term from us. Yeah This is the thing that drives us nuts, right?

38:53

Orthodox Catholic and Reformed are all better terms for us than Lutheran and we got stuck with Lutheran Evangelical we were called evangelicals first and then suddenly the evangelicals are evangelical

39:06

So like this is the real Baptist. Yes. I know you guys are called

39:11

Baptists and you don't know offense, but you don't believe in it Man I I knew the

39:21

Lutherans are gonna be so much fun You guys there's so much fun.

39:27

No, but in regard to the subject of Calvin's view and that was in regard to the hypostatic

39:34

Union that Christ remains both God and man even in his current position that he did not shed his humanity in the resurrection and ascension but remains

39:47

Both fully God and fully man very home of our day is now and forever And in his humanity his humanity is real humanity.

39:55

And therefore the Calvin's argument is that his humanity is not there for Omnipresent his spirit is omnipresent, but not his humanity and therefore the

40:04

Calvinistic view of spiritual presence in the Bread in the cup, which would be even different than my own view

40:11

But but I want to bring it up only because how would you respond to that if someone said, okay?

40:17

I believe Christ is here, but I don't believe it is physically as as top and he said, you know

40:22

You're not concerned with the word presence Okay, what if someone said he's spiritually here and I believe in the spiritual union of Christ with this bread and Christ in this cup

40:31

But I but I believe his physical presence is at the right hand of the father and it is not omnipresent But that his physical is it remains?

40:40

Humanity, but it's not omnipresent if it's in this bread in the bread. We're not saying Christ is omnipresent We're saying

40:45

Christ gives us his body in with and under the bread and that's not omnipresent That's very particular presence

40:53

So we have it but it's all over the Yeah, but that's Lutherans all over the oh, absolutely, but that's it.

40:59

We're still not talking about omnipresence. We're talking about something else Okay, so that's the first thing to say mark mark.

41:05

You want to come in at this point? but the No, I agree with you completely is that we'll defend the ubiquity or omnipresence of Christ's human nature when we need to But that's not what we're talking about with the sacrament.

41:18

Also, the term physical is very loaded Philosophically We reject what's called a copernic or capernaic eating of Christ's flesh and blood

41:30

Making John 6 the the main verse about the Lord's Supper. We would say John 6 refers to a spiritual the spiritual eating and drinking of Christ's flesh that all believers do by trusting in the satisfaction

41:43

Christ made on the cross and so The physical eating of Christ's body and blood if a layman understands it as the bodily as his actual body

41:53

Then yeah, we would say that but philosophically you have to be very careful with that What we do is we stick with the words

42:00

Is this his body or not? The Calvinist makes something up where in the Bible does it teach that you ascend into heaven and commune spiritually with Christ?

42:10

At the right hand of God. It doesn't say that So it's kind of like the Roman Catholic view where they're trying to figure out the how and the

42:18

Lutherans say How about we just stick with the words which are right in front of me? Am I supposed to not believe what Jesus says when he says this is my body?

42:25

I'm gonna say no not really it reminds me of when I was a kid and I was trying to you know, by nature everyone's a

42:31

Calvinist and Because it's reason and I said my dad was saying around the dinner table

42:38

That Jesus is here with us because wherever two or three are gathered there I am in the midst of them of you and I said so I'm like 12 and I'm like I had certain forays into Calvinism You understand?

42:50

And I said, but dad you mean he's he's he's present in spirit and he looked at me and like is that what

42:56

Jesus said? You know, is he with us or not? You know, are you gonna go divide the two natures of Christ because it doesn't make sense to your 12 year old mind

43:05

And I was like no and then all of a sudden I had to become a little child again and And be comforted by the fact that Jesus is with us.

43:14

So yeah Two points I would add real quick. One is We always put our reason under submission to Scripture, you know

43:23

We do not approach Scripture and it must make sense according to our reason But rather our reason is subject to the

43:30

Word of God. The other point would be we don't bring Christ down We don't go to up to him rather.

43:36

He comes to us as he is promised So we're just relying on Christ and his promise

43:43

Yeah, and to to kind of build on that you know that that brings to mind what what

43:50

Paul says in Deuteronomy and or Moses said in Romans 10

43:57

He says, you know Who will go it up to heaven as to bring Christ down or who will go down Into the earth as to bring

44:05

Christ up But what is the Scripture say the word is near you in your mouth and in your heart

44:10

That is the word of faith that we preach and Jesus says in John 6 I believe verse 63 and my words are spirits and their life

44:19

And I remember reading Michael Horton on this and his systematics and he insisted that Jesus is using metonymy

44:26

When he says that his his words are spirit and life But this really gets to the heart of it all that the

44:32

Holy Spirit is not just alongside the word But that he is in the word and that the word is is indistinguishable from the

44:41

Holy Spirit himself. And so Jesus is Is is wherever his word is so so that so again if we're going to approach things philosophically

44:54

You know, we would see we would see both Roman Catholics and the Calvinist making the same error

45:00

So take for it. Let's just go back to the Roman Catholics with the transubstantiation. They're gonna say therefore You can the priest can you know, he can take the the the body and the blood

45:11

But the the the laity they don't need to take the the blood They could just take they take the host because if it's the body of Jesus, then of course it includes blood in it, right?

45:23

but again, we're not we stick to the words of Jesus because his words are spirit and life and And so we don't we don't speculate on what a body is or what blood is

45:36

We hear his words and we follow what he says And we don't try to explain what only the

45:44

Divine Majesty can understand All right fair enough, and I do want to mention one thing just in response to or not response, but just Mark said that you do not consider

45:57

John 6 to be in reference to the participation in the supper is

46:03

Yeah, not the oral participation, but we do consider it to be the spiritual eating which includes more than just the sacrament

46:11

It would it's talking about faith So that's what well that's similar as to the way

46:16

I would explain it when Christ refers to eating and drinking of himself is that's Receiving him by faith alone

46:23

But maybe maybe there'd be more for us to talk about with that but that but I'm just I was interested to hear that because I would have assumed that your interpretation of John 6 would have been more in line with The sacramental eating of the bread in the cup so that that just very

46:39

There's there isn't a unanimous view amongst Lutherans. I think if we all went down to the pub together afterwards

46:45

You know, we could have you know Well, I I tell you if you ever come if if you ever come to Jacksonville Tapani I will take you to the pub and you can tell me all about it.

46:55

Loved it. We'd love to Yes, we'd love to if you want us if you want to see Lutherans argue then bring that up And ding ding fight begin

47:14

All right, I often joke in my videos that Presbyterians have superior theology and I assume that you don't agree.

47:25

So do you think that you deserve the title of superior theology? And if so, why?

47:33

Well, yeah, we're right But this is but this is why this is why we like having conversations

47:40

Like this because we're talking about here are the issues of disagreement the Bible can't Bible says this it can't mean this and this it has to mean one of these two things

47:50

Or perhaps another thing, but it can't mean two contradictory things And and that this is what what

47:56

Christian dialogue needs in the world today which is people actually wanting to Come to unity and find an answer on things as opposed to kind of what

48:05

I was saying before of just saying well as long As me being wrong about this doesn't make me not a

48:10

Christian then we we don't have to we I don't have to visit We don't have to resolve it. So Yeah, there's something kind of to me quite ugly about in a lot of the kind of non -denominational world the way that they set themselves up is

48:23

If you look at for example, look at their church websites and the way that the congregations talk about themselves and the way they'll talk about themselves is a church website is just a 20 -second sales pitch for why you should come to the congregation and so you'll oftentimes talk about themselves as we're the

48:39

Congregation that transforms lives. We're here. We are here to you're living at this level.

48:44

You want to be living at this level of holiness? We can get you there. We've got the programs for your kids We're a congregation of people who are truly authentically live like a lot of adverbs, you know all that type of stuff

48:54

So if you look at him and say all right, well, why should people come to your church? What they're ultimately saying is because we're better Christians Which is not at all what what

49:04

Lutherans would say we Lutherans have some really bad Christians in our in our churches We have some non -christians in our churches even so we would never boast that we're better at praying or better at living holy lives

49:17

Than then people of other confessions of faith, but what we would certainly confess is we're better Theologically we have insofar as people disagree with us

49:28

They're wrong, I wouldn't certainly not assert that I'm the best Orator from the pulpit in the history of the world

49:36

I would never say that I'm a better preacher in terms of delivery or Kind of ability to connect with an audience then, you know, then the guy at the

49:43

Evangelical Church down the road Or Spurgeon, right? Yeah But I bet

49:51

I talk about Jesus a lot more than than the guy from the Evangelical Church down the road because I've heard it

49:56

I've heard they're preaching and so in the competition of who talks about the the cross of Christ more who says more doctrinally true things

50:05

From the pulpit this isn't to say that I've never said anything wrong or anything of that nature But I I trust that I would win that competition against a lot of folks and I certainly trust that That in in the competition between which document has more theologically accurate statements

50:23

I will I will definitely say the Book of Concord wins against any reformed confession of faith

50:30

Against the Catechism of the Catholic Church, whatever it might be Can I just know my terminology again?

50:37

I Don't like the language of superiority inferiority. I I think it's much more helpful to talk about purity of Teaching right, but that's not fun.

50:46

That's why This conversation is to go and challenge challenge the premise is that you're asking the wrong question, sir

50:56

No, I think you might have superior. I mean it Calvin Calvin was a very able thinker I mean, he's a far cleverer man than I I would ever be but we're talking about purity of the gospel

51:07

And this is again, you know, we could we could spend the rest of the next two hours talking about this

51:12

But you know, for example when we talk by what about the Lord's Supper? What about the baptism? What about baptism what about all these things it's all to do with You know the gospel in its truth and his purity

51:26

Rather than we've got the best assembled system With all these different fancy parts, but it's actually, you know, they we got you know, where is

51:34

Jesus found with least clutter? Really to be perceived my wife has had multiple people in the last few years say, you know

51:44

I I'm kind of interested in the Lutheran thing, but it I think it's it's only really for really smart people

51:51

Because it's it seems really Elevated and and the truth is it's actually the opposite.

51:57

It's it's so simple. It's We believe scripture. It's not really very complicated.

52:04

What did Jesus say? We believe that and so At its base. It's actually quite straightforward quite simple, you know our

52:13

In times theology, it's not interesting like you get in the left -behind stuff

52:19

Because it's just so simply straightforward Jesus comes back the resurrection of the dead

52:25

The life of the world to come just as Jesus promised. Okay, that's it. We believe that so it's actually quite simple

52:34

Yeah, and one thing too that Part of the simplicity is that when we make distinctions we try to do it for the sake of of Simplifying and of course, we all know and you know, even

52:49

Lutherans can make too many distinctions But one distinction I find to be helpful is the distinction between theology and doctrine if you will

52:57

Sometimes theology is looked at as just what's been taught. But if you look at that like the Lutheran dogmaticians, they'll start off by saying

53:04

Okay. So what is theology theology of science? Okay. Well, what kind of science is it? Is it theoretical

53:09

No, it's not theoretical science. It's it's a practical. It's a practical aptitude, right?

53:15

It's a practical habit And doctrine is what's revealed doctrine is that which is which is which is made known?

53:23

Through the light of Scripture. So as far as our doctrine goes We have the right doctrine, right?

53:31

We subscribe to our confession because it is a right exposition of Scripture Your theology is your habit of applying that doctrine and growing and understanding that doctrine so Doctrine is to justification if you will as theology is to sanctification, right?

53:52

Your theology is not going to be, you know superior, right? You're always going to be as part of the new obedience as part of your sanctification

54:01

It's always going to be done in weakness, but your doctrine is what you rely on That's the revealed clear fountain of Israel with the material of the gospel of Christ the the the crucified

54:13

God man who made satisfaction for the sins of all people and proclaims his gospel in spirit

54:20

And in life for for our salvation Can I just ask

54:27

Ben real quick? Did your did your wife tell her friends was she like it's okay You can be a moron.

54:33

Yeah We have Have you met my husband

54:49

That's right I was gonna would been building on what Ben said about the simplicity of our faith and the first time that we call

54:57

Justification to central article is that calling faith to central article. So we're always guarding faith so for example we attack our minion is

55:07

Because it takes away from the glory of God and the comfort of the conscience if you have someone relying upon a work of his will in a pre regenerated state

55:20

Then he is when the devil attacks him with his sins and whether he has had a legitimate faith experience

55:27

Then he's going to be looking at his will the devil is going to turn him away from the objective

55:32

Promises of God's grace that it is his grace alone as my brother Andrew. I got to hear him preach on Sunday Fewer chosen.

55:41

Yeah, this is a terrifying thing for the old man But for the for the for the broken heart that hears the condemnation of the law

55:48

It's the most beautiful thing in the world that it is by grace alone And so also if we don't know that Jesus died for everyone

55:56

Then faith has lost its simplicity because you have to figure out whether Jesus died for you And then you're looking away from the simple pure gospel that Christ died for you.

56:06

And so that's where the simplicity of faith You know, it's like why didn't the church have to come up?

56:12

Why did the church have to come up with the term Trinity? we didn't have it before it's only because of the attacks on the Trinity that we actually have to use the word

56:19

Trinity and Same with with with a lot of other terms that we have in the church.

56:25

And so keeping it as simple as possible Is where we we need to? Where we as long as our doctrine is pure then

56:32

God will teach us to be good theologians to guard that faith and just to just to follow up and simply say

56:40

The the whole superior theology thing happened as a joke when I did my

56:45

Thanksgiving episode The denominations were were telling what they were thankful for and Big Eva was thankful for smoke machines and big bands

56:53

And and you know, I didn't have a Lutheran in that episode, but you guys would have been thankful for I don't know craft beer

56:58

I don't know But the the the the Presbyterian held up the

57:05

Westminster Standards and said we're thankful for superior theology And that's where the term came from. It became a hashtag and now it's sort of my thing, but Elders we get good laugh.

57:18

I laughed at that episode. It was good. Well, I appreciate that So we do have to work on your

57:24

German accent. Oh, I don't I don't I kind of gave up I kind of get The first one sounded

57:31

Yiddish It was not even close So I have a couple of questions

57:39

I want to go down But I'd like to do this since we're drawing to the end of the hour I do want to ask these questions

57:46

But if I could maybe just ask one of you and you can choose whoever I'm gonna ask the question one of you jump in Answer it.

57:51

We'll jump to the next question First question is this and this was we'll call this a speed round Is it correct to say that Lutherans believe in baptismal regeneration?

58:00

And if so, how do you make the connection between that and sola fide? Yes. Yes We believe in baptismal regeneration and it's so the fee day

58:10

Depends on it because to believe in Jesus who died for you say well, where is that Jesus for you?

58:15

He's not on the cross. You can't go to God Well gotha, you know, nothing in my hands are bringing me to the cross -cycling and you get splinters, but you don't find

58:22

Jesus So where is Jesus for you? The answer is he says whoever believes he's baptized will be safe So there's

58:28

Jesus for you You're baptized into his death and resurrection and so to believe in Jesus is to believe in the Jesus into whom you are baptized and therefore

58:35

To have faith in Jesus for you is to happen is to believe in Baptismal regeneration that you have a born of this water in the spirit and made one with Christ So you would say there's a distinction not just quick follow -up question

58:49

So there would be a distinction in time between regeneration and faith then That's it

58:58

I'm trying to be really brief because we're running out of time But that's basically a question that arises when we have a bad practice of baptism

59:05

You look at the New Testament and somebody says I want to be a Christian swoosh They're baptized there and then and that question doesn't arise.

59:11

So in the early church, there is no unbaptized believer It's when we start when we separate those two two events

59:21

Temporally, we then have a perhaps have to ask start have to start asking those sorts of questions

59:26

But from the point of view of baptizing, for example an infant We believe that word the word creates faith

59:32

Not the person and therefore the God is able through by the power of his word but you know the power of the

59:38

Holy Spirit to create faith in an infant and therefore the faith is baptized and Regenerate because they live by faith.

59:45

How how old can a child so that you believe the infant faith, right? Yes, so so how old before you receive a child to the table

59:56

That varies from congregation to congregation and and a Lutheran denomination to another where I grew up 15 where I serve 910 some judges are younger.

01:00:07

It varies. We don't we very cheap up practice infant communion This is a whole separate question.

01:00:13

It is and I knew that I didn't yeah, that's an important distinction. Okay. Yeah All right

01:00:19

Do infants hold to any version of what is called bad? By Baptists once saved always saved or eternal security

01:00:28

No, should I go with that? Okay We we only locate the security in as Mark said earlier in the gospel itself

01:00:42

Outside of the gospel. There is no certainty And so when Jesus says that he will not let anyone snatch his sheep out of his hands

01:00:51

That is not spoken to reason that's spoken to faith faith is the only thing and this gets to the faith alone question

01:00:59

Faith is the only thing that holds on to the word of promise Which is the same word that's in baptism and it's the same word that you keep hearing

01:01:06

In the gospel and and in the sacrament and so your certainty of salvation is full and and and and and certain in in the promise of the gospel

01:01:20

Outside of that There is no certainty at all So the problem that we have with with once saved always saved is twofold one

01:01:29

It can give a carnal security that if you imagine that you are elect Then it doesn't matter what you do

01:01:37

And how you live and you can you know, then fall away But to it also casting to doubt whether you ever had faith in the first place

01:01:45

So there was a guy a pastor who fell away. I Don't know a few years ago. I can't remember his name because I don't pay attention to these names

01:01:53

Makes no difference to me as Paul says, but he fell away and then you had a bunch of Calvinist saying Oh, he well, he was never a

01:01:59

Christian. He never really believed Well, then how can you know that you right now? What if you fall away later?

01:02:06

Can you have certainty right now that you have faith? How do you know that? Well faith comes from hearing the word of Christ it come faith is located in the promise.

01:02:17

That's how it's delivered That's what it abides in and so your certainty of salvation is not in some theory of sovereign grace

01:02:26

That's enthusiasm that that that that is separating the Spirit and the grace of God apart from from the word

01:02:32

Even if it's ever so slightly But it is grounded in the promise of Christ in his word and sacraments where you have full certainty that you will

01:02:42

Make it to the end that God will bring you to the end of st. Peter says First Peter one blessed be the

01:02:49

God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has who has begotten us to a to a living Hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ to an inheritance undefiled imperishable kept in heaven for us who by God's power

01:03:00

But by faith are being kept by God's power to the salvation ready to be revealed on the last time

01:03:07

That's our hope is only in the gospel. So yes, we do believe in the perseverance of the Saints if it's only in the gospel

01:03:13

But but apart from that I That's all just speculation Okay, and not to speculate further, but I do have to Poke the bear just a little can a person go from being regenerated to unregenerated and then regenerated again

01:03:30

Do you believe that a person can lose and regain and is it a process of regeneration on?

01:03:36

regeneration to regeneration Yes Distinction we make in the formula of Concord is

01:03:44

When we talk about regeneration If we're talking about regeneration as simply making you alive the life that God that God gives in Christ Then that's the same thing as justification and that's that's something that comes from outside of us is complete in Christ But sometimes we might speak of regeneration as the inward movements that happen like God creating the contrition and all that And we say well, that's not that's that's not the righteousness by which we stand.

01:04:11

So God's gonna work things within you And it's it's it's very difficult for for us

01:04:16

It's impossible for us for our reason to try to like pinpoint exactly where that is But again, this is why our regeneration must be grounded in the promise itself in the in the external word

01:04:28

And and so yeah, I mean my father -in -law was baptized as a baby fell away and then came back to the faith when he was in College, I've seen it happen several times.

01:04:37

Thanks be to God and so we're yeah, we're not we're not Donatus or whatever the

01:04:42

You know those who who said that you can't come back to the faith if you fall away No Innovations, yeah, so so so again this gets to the point then that your your faith

01:04:54

I know my faith is founded on Jesus Christ my God and Lord and this my faith confessing unmoved

01:05:00

I stand upon his word man's reason cannot fathom the truth of God profound which trusts her subtle wisdom relies on shifting ground

01:05:08

God's Word is all -sufficient. It makes divinely sure and trusting in its wisdom. My faith shall rest secure.

01:05:15

Take it away mark No, I just want to point out to everyone. That was a Lutheran hymn that Andrew it's already been written

01:05:21

Andrew does not have the charismatic gift I was not So in Titus we have the washing of Regeneration and renewal and so baptism also now saves us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ It's an appeal to God for a good conscience at all times and God's prop if we are unfaithful

01:05:49

God remains faithful for he cannot deny himself So we have the example of David Losing the

01:05:55

Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit cannot remain when you sit against your conscience and we have the we have the clear example of him rising up again and We have the we have the parable of the prodigal son where he is away from the home

01:06:09

Even though this father is longing for him He says he was dead and now he is alive and you could say well

01:06:16

He never was his son in the first place. Well, yes, he was he was in the house So we we we see examples of this

01:06:22

We also have they believe for a while and in time of testing fell away. Whoever believes is saved.

01:06:27

Whoever believes is regenerated so the scriptures are very clear on this and I think that the attempt to Talk about whether the person was saved or not

01:06:37

This wreaks havoc upon the conscience and makes the conscience look inside of itself for certainty

01:06:42

What again what makes you not able to be snatched from Jesus hand is that you are hearing his voice

01:06:48

But you are believing the gospel my sheep hear my voice and that's where the power of Certainty regeneration and salvation is is in the gospel

01:06:58

But you would agree though that there is such a thing as false faith that there are those who confess without genuinely having okay

01:07:05

So that's not a disagree. Okay, they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Sure. All right

01:07:12

Two more questions and then we're done. What about predestination? Yeah, that's gonna be short no,

01:07:18

I know there's a difference, huh No, no, but but but I know there's a difference between Lutheran for understanding of predestination and Calvinistic understanding and Obviously Arminianism because you guys have decried

01:07:38

Arminianism throughout today's discussion. So what would be and I don't know who wants to take this one

01:07:44

To simply give they you know, the two -minute synopsis of what's the difference between us in regard to predestination?

01:07:50

I'll do the ten seconds if somebody else can fill it in If you're saved it is by God's grace alone

01:07:56

By nothing that you have done. It is the work of God from the beginning to end if you're damned your fault

01:08:03

You brought it upon yourself. You are responsible for your damnation. Those two ends don't tie up They're not like my beautifully tight hand -tied bowtie that beautifully ties up.

01:08:13

No, it doesn't they don't meet Because we're not in that department is way above our pay grade the way about human understanding and error

01:08:20

So this is more than 10 seconds But the the errors we see of Arminians is to tie try to tie the ends and they end up tying it up The human free will the error of the

01:08:29

Calvinist is to tie the ends at the end of God's Secret Secret counsel they seek the the the clues in the word secret.

01:08:37

Okay, don't poke your nose in there It's God's secret counsel trying to make it try to make it all work.

01:08:44

We don't need to make it work We just need to believe and confess Okay, but you but but you would say if someone is a believer that it is because of God's that God has predestined them

01:08:56

Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah, so so we confess what's typically called single predestination that God Predestines the elect but that he does not choose from before the foundation of the world to glorify himself

01:09:08

By condemning people so and for us again, this is an instance of as top and he was saying the math doesn't really seem to work out for a lot of people here, but our interpretation of the scriptures is or rather the scriptures are

01:09:23

We Lord the scriptures over our reason so we simply say all right Well the Bible this is what the

01:09:28

Bible says about election and predestination The Bible also teaches us that God desires all people to be saved

01:09:34

That that Christ shed his blood for the world there are too many words that we have to explain away to argue that that that the mercy and salvation of Jesus Christ that that God doesn't want people to receive that and So we say you can complain about the math not working out and on us somehow saying two plus two equals five

01:09:55

But that's what that's simply what we believe the scriptures teach and if I could just say

01:10:00

God God created math But he never learned it because it was beneath him and whenever someone tries to like be like well

01:10:07

I should have used that in school According my calculations what God does is he really and shoves him in the locker

01:10:17

Don't get shoved in the locker by God Right Well guys

01:10:22

I And I have a lot to think I think there's there's actually maybe some closer in my thinking to what you guys have said then then maybe some of my

01:10:32

Calvinistic counterparts because I would hold to a very similar view of Predestination and that I believe that that those who are not predestined have been passed over But not actively that God has not actively created evil in their hearts

01:10:43

I think there's a conversation that could be had about that, but again I know you guys have other things to do today

01:10:48

So I'm not gonna ask you to argue that but I do want to do this Ben It's been a few minutes since we've heard your beautiful voice

01:10:55

I want to ask you to tell me if you were going to convince me to be a

01:11:01

Lutheran What would be your best argument Well, first of all, it's true.

01:11:07

So we'll just start with that, right? and really It's it's about Christ for you here are the sure and certain promises of God And we know where that is found for us because Christ tells us in his word

01:11:23

So through word and sacrament Christ comes to us. Our sins are forgiven we can have confidence that we are saved not because of anything we've done not even because we've made a decision but because Christ has

01:11:36

Accomplished it for us. So there's certainty there is grace and Christ is at the center of it all

01:11:44

Well, Ben, thank you so much. And and thank you all gentlemen for giving us this hour today

01:11:49

I do think I have learned Just by listening to you all and it's always good to go to the source rather than simply try to strawman each other

01:11:59

But rather to ask each other legitimate questions Talk about where we may differ but also glorify and where we share the our similarities and are the things that we do agree on So Hans, thank you for bringing this group together

01:12:12

I was just kidding when I said when I said you were a group of rogues and ne 'er -do -wells. No, I was certainly

01:12:20

But I want you to know that I'm very grateful for you Preaching the gospel and loving people and continuing to serve the

01:12:28

Lord and pray you will continue to do so all the days of your life and again, I want to thank you audience for being with us today as we close out this episode of Conversations with the

01:12:38

Calvinist this has been another bowtie dialogue and I'm looking to do another one in the future I want to do one of the group of Methodist.

01:12:44

I want to do one with a different a group of Pentecostals I'm looking forward to that So if you know someone in those groups who you might be able to put me in contact with Please do so would love to talk to them

01:12:55

And again, I want to remind you that you can follow me on Twitter at your Calvinist You can find all of our videos at Calvinist podcast calm

01:13:02

And if you have a question, you'd like for me to address in a future podcast You can send it to me at Calvinist podcast at gmail .com.

01:13:09

So thank you again for listening to conversations with a Calvinist My name is Keith Flosky and I've been your