If God Loves Everyone Then How Could He Allow Suffering?

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you can shine a spotlight on any individual in the midst of That situation where a particular area is under the massive judgment of god

00:10

You can shine a spotlight on them And if your basic assumption is that that's fundamentally a good person And they don't deserve anything that they're getting and they're owed god's father.

00:18

They care Then you can like you can look at them and you say hey, yeah, well god's doing them some kind of injustice

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Warning the following message may be offensive to some audiences These audiences may include but are not limited to professing christians who never read their bible sissies

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Be your discretion is advised People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio

00:46

In christ alone hope of salvation any hope of heaven

01:05

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty god is

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Hanging over our head They will hear his words They will not act upon him and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come

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They will be consumed and they will perish god wrapped himself in flesh

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Condescended and became a man died on the cross for sin was resurrected on the third day

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Has ascended to the right hand of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us

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Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words They will act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand

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Welcome to bible bash where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions

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You're not allowed to ask We're your host harrison kerrigan pastor tim mullett and today we'll answer the age -old question

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If god loves everyone, how could he allow suffering? And tim,

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I think this is one of those questions that pretty much every christian is going to get asked by believers and non -believers alike because Everyone Sees suffering in the world.

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We're not oblivious to the fact that there's suffering In the world, we might be oblivious to how much suffering there is in the world

02:30

But we know that this this can be a cruel place to live in And there's you know, there's famine all the time.

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There's people who go without water clothing shelter People who are taken advantage of all of these things and then they keep hearing from christians that god loves everyone

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God loves everyone god loves everyone which doesn't seem to Make sense when you look at all the suffering in the world

02:56

So so what is your response typically when when people ask you this if god loves everyone?

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How could he allow suffering? Yeah, well he doesn't He does he doesn't what

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He doesn't he doesn't allow suffering. He doesn't love everyone He doesn't love everyone.

03:18

Okay Well that that seems to be a uh, that seems to fly in the face of probably what most christians would believe

03:25

Uh, at least most most of the people that i've talked to so so why don't you flesh that out a little bit?

03:31

Why why do you why do you say? God doesn't love everyone Yeah, I mean sure romans 9 13 tells us as it is written jacob have

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I loved but he saw have I hated right? So what should we say then? Is there any injustice on god's part by no means where he says to moses?

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I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion, right so Like the idea that god just loves everyone universally in the same kind of way

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It's just is there's nothing biblical about that. I mean you could read through the bible and you see that god is righteous judge.

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He's Angry with the wicked every day. Um, if god like if he universally loves everyone in the same kind of sense

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Then you know, obviously There wouldn't be any doctrine of hell at that point Uh, so yeah god god certainly he he

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He he not only does he hate, you know the sin But he also hates the sinner and that hatred of the sinner is going to be expressed eternally in hell forever

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Where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched. So um, you know, I think we have a bit of a sentimental understanding of What theologians call common grace in general?

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So I mean god obviously causes a rain to Fall on the just and the unjust And he obviously is willing to save um human beings if they repent of their sins and believe the good news but they got but the bible definitely doesn't picture god as just Having an unconditional love for every human being that manifests itself in You know his like positive favorable circumstances for them for sure so What I mean there

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I think yeah, I just I think a lot of people where are people getting this idea that god loves everyone?

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because that's that is I mean, you know I know very few people who

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Seem to naturally come to the conclusion that god hates anyone Except maybe like the devil.

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Maybe they'd say god hates the devil or something Um, but they would never say that god hates people

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Uh, and I think that's why that that phrase is so common, you know, um

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Hate this hate the sin love the sinner, right? Uh, that's a very common

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Phrase that people say where we live at least and so why is it so common?

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Why do people have such a skewed view? of Who god loves and who he doesn't love?

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when the bible is pretty clear that God says he he loves certain people and he hates other people.

06:04

Yeah Well, let me give you some verses So I want to give you a few more verses that talk about this and then i'll give you

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Like the counter -argument that why people I think that god universally loves everyone in this way

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But I mean psalm 5 5 god hates all workers of iniquity Leviticus 20 23 and you shall not walk in the manners of the nations

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Which I cast out before you for they committed all these things and therefore I abhorred them Uh Deuteronomy 18 12 for all that do these things are an abomination to the lord

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And because of these abominations the lord your god will drive them out before thee So deuteronomy 25 16 all that do unrighteously or an abomination to the lord

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Deuteronomy 32 16 to 28 provoked him to jealousy with strange gods with abomination.

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They provoked him to anger and when the lord saw it He abhorred them um, so like this is i've given you like five or six verses like this, but there's a big long list of verses that are

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Just like this, right? So, um psalm 10 3 the wicked you know

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Whom the lord abhors like it just goes on and on and on there's just a big long list of verses along these lines, but I suppose you know it like right now the most

07:19

Probably the most well -known verse in the bible today is judged not lest you be judged

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So that's probably the number one bible verse but it used to be for many years that the You know the most famous well -known bible verse was john 3 16

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And if there's any bible verse that anyone knew it would be because it would be john 3 16 and a lot of that Due to you know guys like billy graham and everything else, but you know

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John 3 16 says for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him should not perish

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But have everlasting life. So, you know, you have john 3 john 3 16 Says god so loved the world and part of what's happening is that People have never really thought through what the word the world means in this context

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So they're basically making poor assumptions about the nature of what this word means

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So like the word is cosmos and they're basically assuming that the word cosmos means every

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Single human being who has ever existed, right? but then that's really it's it's um

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Like even in english like like the word cosmos like it It is being translated as world

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And the the most natural meaning of the word world is not people.

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Anyways, do you see what i'm saying? right Like meaning like like the word cosmos is a word that doesn't necessarily like it doesn't intuitively mean all people who have ever existed in the first instance, so this is a word that really is quite flexible in the bible and Just to give you an indication of how flexible it is

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Like think about what like this is a word that shows up in first john multiple times So just think about this verse in first john

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So do not love the world. What does that mean? Well, you got a few options right like so think like think about do not

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Do not love the world. Well under this view world can't mean every human being who's ever lived, right?

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Right because then like we've committed the impartable sin and basically said that we shouldn't that we shouldn't love everyone

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But like so but think about it like do not love the world or things in the world There's several options like one of those options is like the world as in the actual globe

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Like the earth, right? So yeah, the physical world we live on right, right

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Another option is just to say like the entire universe, right? Like the cause like the cosmos like the idea of the cosmos is the entire universe so everything right?

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So you can have like the globe like the earth as a globe you can have like the idea of the entire cosmos you can have the idea of um

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Like worldliness, right? So in in in um In first john says do not love the world.

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The most natural idea is not like the earth The most natural idea is not uh, the entire cosmos right there

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The most actual idea for that word in that context is The sinful human system this like set itself in opposition against god, right?

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So the sinful world system is held under the sway of the evil one. So do not love the world or the things in the world

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So notice same word there. So don't love the world of things in the world Well the things in the world that's the things in the earth, right

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So but you notice how the same word is used in two different Senses in the same verse, right?

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So yeah, do not like so first it's saying do not love the sinful human system and then it's saying Or the things in the world like the earth, right?

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For all this in the earth, right all this in the world. It's not it's not of god, but it's of the world

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So, you know, you're basically um, you're going back and forth between like the universe like the earth like the the earth

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Sinful humanity and rebellion against god So when you read first john when you read john 3 16

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The issue is that you're not supposed to like just assume that naturally this just means

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Every human being who's ever lived, right? So this is a word that can mean a bunch of different things. So if you look it up, um

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Cosmos can means can mean that which serves to beautify through decoration Adornment or adorning it can mean the condition of orderliness

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Orderly arrangement order it can mean the sum total of everything here and now like the world like the universe essentially, right?

11:36

It can mean that I mean, um It can mean um, it can mean like sinful humanity and rebellion against god

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It can mean the planet or the earth the inhabitant the place of inhabitants But yeah,

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I mean so it can mean like humanity in general like not necessarily every human being but human beings, right?

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like humanity in general Like so basically i'm just uh the system of human existence in as many aspects um

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So like it can be a collective aspect of an entity like the totality or the sum so like The issue here is just to say when you're when you're reading this verse for god

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So love the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life You're supposed to read that in context and in context what that means is it means all people without Distinction not necessarily all people without exception like meaning like god loved not just the jews.

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He loves humanity in general therefore because he loves humanity in general like people without um

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Without distinction meaning not just he doesn't just love the jews. He also loves the gentiles So he's sending a son right so that whoever would believe in him is going to not perish but have everlasting life

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So basically you just have this verse which is being read in a very like this word that's being read

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In a very unconventional way right in a very specific way that is making a very specific theological statement

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That is preventing you from like reading like these other 20 verses some of which i've quoted some which

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I haven't Or more, you know, so there's there's a lot of verses like this basically Well, yeah,

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I I think that I think that is um, you know, I was actually having a conversation about this the other day with someone where Where I was basically just asking him like hey, what do you do with these verses then?

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you know and this person wasn't necessarily in the Uh, god loves everyone camp, but he was probably more like a

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You know one foot in that but then also knowing in the back of his head that there's

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Probably a lot more to it Yeah, and and it seems like there's a lot of doctrines that sort of fall apart

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If you go full in the he loves everyone camp So I was just asking him, you know, hey, what do you do with these verses?

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Where god just says straight up? I mean, you know the ones you read it's just he's straight up saying he hates certain people

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Right like there with no with no. Um You know sometimes people argue with the jacob and the esau verse it's like well

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He's not saying he hates one and he loves the other he's saying He chose one and he denied the other right

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So what what is your response? First of all, what's your response to that just quickly? He chose one and not the other and that's why he said

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I love jacob. I love but he saw I hated Well, I mean, it's a very strange way It's a very strange way of just communicating a lack of choice in someone particularly when the implications of that lack of choice

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Are eternal conscious suffering forever and ever right? so like if that right if it if it's love that like the issue is if it's love that sends like people to hell then

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Like that's a very strange definition of love, right? Like the most loving thing

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I can do for you is to punish you forever and ever in hell Like so the issue is a lot of people they only think about god in terms of one attribute

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They don't think about him in terms of the other aspects of his character And so they're trying to read like the entirety of the way that god interacts

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Through the to the world like through the lens of you know, god is love. It's like yes. God is love

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He's also wrath. He's also holy like holy. Holy. Holy, right? So he's he's more than just this one attribute like that's the problem

15:22

And so I mean basically you just have all these verses that say the same Thing right?

15:28

So like you just have verse after verse after verse um If any man does not love the lord jesus christ, let him be anathema, right?

15:35

Which means accursed of the lord um Um, so these six things does the lord hate ea7 are abomination to him

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Like so notice the six things the lord hates The seventh is an abomination a false witness that speaks lies and he that sows discord among the brother brothers are listed

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So I mean, there's just verse after verse that says the same kind of thing. Um, you know

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Theologians used to know this we used to be able to say these kind of things. So here's a quote from uh, Augustine basically

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He says for may it be that god hates a person to the degree more mildly as to not destroy him

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But whom he destroys he hates the more exceedingly Uh by how much he punishes more severely now, he hateth all those who work iniquity

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But all those who speak lies he also destroys Here's edward's quote the lord

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Are god that holds you over the pit of hell much in the same way one holds a spider or some loathsome insect over the fire

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Abhors you and has dreadfully provoked his wrath towards you burns like a fire He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into that fire.

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He has a purer eyes than the bear To have you in his sight You are ten thousand thousand times more abominable in his sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours

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You know, that's a from sinners in the hands of the angry god But this these are just this is just like common knowledge to a church.

16:57

It's history basically just living in a unique time that's filled with A this somewhat irrational view of god's love in this instance right, yeah, and and it really is irrational if you think about the various bible verses like like the ones that you read where it's just I mean as black and white as black and white can be

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Right, you know like they're and and the problem is just once you accept this god loves everyone view

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Then you know, I I don't know what you do with those verses anymore Other than just try to pretend they don't exist or try to explain them away through some sort of Yep, you know mental gymnastics.

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I I don't know what you do with it But then the other problem it leads to is this problem right now that we're talking about, you know, if god loves everyone

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How could he allow suffering in the world? So so the question is based on a faulty presupposition meaning

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The person asking this question thinks god loves everyone But if he loves everyone that that can't make sense

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That he loves everyone because he allows suffering who loves someone by allowing them to suffer right and Uh now, you know

18:12

There is there is like a workaround to that, right? Sure to um, you know loving someone

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But also allowing them to suffer and that would be Letting them, you know Essentially, you're letting them suffer so that they learn knowing that they're going to ultimately be okay

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Right. So for the sake of learning some sort of lesson, right? basically like going through a trial and um

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You know coming out of the other end of that trial having been made a better person

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For facing the adversity, right? Um, and and that's certainly something that god does

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I mean god tells us that he does that, you know, we're told to rejoice when we face trials um because they're um

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Perfect god uses them to perfect our faith, right? So so there is that aspect of god's love but But then, you know, does that apply in every situation where there is suffering?

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What what is your response to that? Yeah, sure So I mean I think part of what you have to do when you're trying to answer a topic along these lines

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It's just to think about these things in terms of ultimate. Um priorities in that way meaning meaning, um

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So god god certainly, uh, like when you think about like the totality of a person's existence

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Like life is temporary right life is temporary and life God has plans for this life

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And so, you know part of what's happening in a question like this is that we've turned this We've turned these thoughts so in such a man -centered direction that We basically think first and foremost about all god's actions as if they're for like in the first instance directed towards us, right?

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so like that's Part of the problem here. So like everything got like the issue is that everything god does he does first and foremost for his glory

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So this is you know, this is what romans is telling us at that point that what if god

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Would like with much patience and long suffering Endured like vessels of wrath who are prepared for destruction in order that he may make known the riches of his glory to those who?

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Love him, right? So like the idea is that like god is A jealous god god's first like his first priority is to reveal his character

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To his creation. So he's a loving god. He's a wrathful god. He wants to reveal those things and mercy is is kind of a

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Like it's it's a meaningless concept if there's no contrast right so like meaning like if everyone got the same thing then

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We wouldn't be nearly as thankful for the mercy that he's shown us and unless there's some sort of contrast

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So god because he's not just a simple being um in the sense that like You know, all he is is just love like period the end

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That's all he is right like because he's because that's not the way that we under like he has different attributes

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And i'm not trying to say that they're like separate attributes as if they're conflicting right? So god's a simple god in that way. He's not composed of parts for sure uh, but then like he like he um

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He certainly like there's more to his nature than just love right in that way so like along those lines like basically my point is just to say that um

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Like when we're thinking about trying to even answer questions along these lines first and foremost god is seeking his own glory and then he has ultimate plans for us and that like those plans like ultimately are going to if if we are his like if he

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Has self if salvific love for us the plans that he has for us are ultimately going to be for our good and for his glory but that doesn't mean that every single thing that happens in like from start to finish

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Is going to be like happy or pleasant or you know suffering free or everything else, right?

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So like we're death row inmates. We deserve We we all deserve hell he's showing us mercy and he has an ultimate plan that's going to be for good

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So we know that all things work together for good to those who love god to those who are called according to his purpose

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Meaning like the destination of his people isn't ultimately just going to be suffering without end for all eternity

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As punishment for like that would be him being just towards us You see i'm saying like that would be him being just towards us

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But ultimately there's he has a good plan for his people now if you were to say like like His plan for his people is suffering without end as expressed throughout all eternity in hell

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Like there's no way you could say that would be a good plan. You see i'm saying Right. Yeah, that wouldn't that wouldn't fit

22:43

That wouldn't make any sense. It wouldn't be um, I mean it could be uh It could be a good plan in the sense that he has that plan for people for hell

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But what i'm trying to say is you couldn't say that like that would be his providence directed in a good way towards you

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Like towards your good Do you see i'm saying like it could be good in the sense that it reveals something about him

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But it wouldn't be for your good like that would be for your destruction in that way, right? So so when you're thinking about things along those lines, yes, god has a plan for his people

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He has a plan that's that's for their good right is for his glory and for their good And in the meantime, you know, that's going to that's going to involve a lot of purifying right so He puts us through these trials in order to make us more like him like that's his plan

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So he puts us through these trials to make us more like him and to glorify himself as like we are witnesses to The power that's at work and that's like him coming to live inside of us

23:38

So certainly, you know, all those things are true. But then on the other end of things. I mean you you know as you think about Just all the rest of the suffering in the world when most people are asking these kind of questions like the the flawed premise is the idea that People are getting something they don't deserve, right?

23:57

Right. So like how can a loving god allow, you know suffering or whatever? It's like well step one. He doesn't love everyone right and then step two like step two is just to say that um,

24:09

You know like what people are getting is just and and and god is revealing certain aspects of his character there so the issue is like how like the real question is more how could a holy god allow anyone to Live more than a few minutes, you know

24:23

If you think about that like how even a few seconds because we're born and conceived in iniquity and sin

24:29

So how could he even tolerate our existence knowing what he says about his character and you know these other places?

24:34

So yeah it's um It's a bad question that's basically yeah, definitely it definitely has a

24:41

Faulty premise, um to begin with but then it does lead to I think a follow -up question and you know, okay, so So if the you know, if the premise itself is faulty god doesn't love everyone

24:55

God creates some people to experience suffering untold suffering in this life

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And then even worse in the next right how could you know like What's the point of that?

25:10

Why why create that person to begin with if all they're made to do is suffer?

25:17

And die and then suffer forever Yeah, I mean this is obviously

25:22

I mean, this is a question that um, the bible actually answers fairly directly. Okay so, uh, see, um uh

25:32

Let's see Romans 9 22 What if god desiring to show his wrath and to make his power known has endured with much patient patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

25:42

In order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he's prepared beforehand for glory

25:49

So like the issue is like this is actually a question that god answers He basically said he basically gives you the answer to that question

25:55

Like so the idea is that yes god created certain individuals for destruction in order to make his power known, right?

26:02

So like that's what he did. So he created like these vessels of wrath prepared for destruction

26:07

He endured with much patience these vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, right? So it's to make his power known

26:15

And to demonstrate his patience Those are two reasons so far right? And then it says in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy

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Which he's prepared beforehand for glory. So like the idea there is just to say that yes, he's endured with much patience

26:30

These vessels of wrath prepared for destruction In order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy

26:37

Meaning like the fact that god would save me A scoundrel, you know, i'm scoundrel just like everyone else, but the fact that he would save me

26:46

Is breathtaking, right? And it's something that you appreciate you appreciate because you understand that god's holy and you don't deserve that right

26:54

And you see the consequences of sin that are expressed for all eternity and hell and then when you think about the fact that he

27:02

He chose to have mercy on you There's nothing you can do with that other than just you know

27:09

Give praise to the glory of his grace at that point Because you deserve just what they they deserve

27:15

So, you know part of so the issue is the answer to this question is that god ultimately he he's he's a holy god

27:23

He's a righteous god He's a just god. He's a loving god He's a merciful god and we see all these aspects of his character in the way that he created the world allowed it to fall

27:35

Chose, you know people, um To be his own treasure possession You know from from the midst of that before the foundation of world, right?

27:43

So like the issue is that like in like the way that he's made the world has uniquely revealed his glory in that way

27:50

Okay Now now the reason that we're doing this So so basically you're saying

27:58

Hey god, you know god shows mercy to some people to demonstrate his merciful kindness his graciousness and then

28:05

He uh, he shows his wrath towards others to demonstrate his power and patience, right?

28:12

um Now the reason that we are even doing this episode is because someone on twitter

28:19

Uh, I I don't know actually I can't remember now. I don't think they were responding to us but they were responding to someone else that that we follow and we interact with a fair amount and uh posted this picture

28:33

You know, I don't I I guess you could call it a me. I don't really think it's necessarily a meme But it's it's a picture of this starving

28:40

African child right and then at the top of it. It says tell him how god has a plan

28:46

Tell him how it's all part of god's design and he's just being tested um, so You know, obviously we talked we talked about the fact that there are times where god does test us and you know and and it even seems like Tests us uh, not every single christian obviously, but does test some people

29:07

Uh in extreme ways like what's being talked about? I mean you you think about paul for example where where he says that he's learned to do well with a lot and he's learned to do well with a little right and you know, he's he was um

29:21

Stranded at sea for several days. He was shipwrecked a few different times. Um in prison beaten

29:28

Uh went without food, you know all all of these things paul, you know paul faced a lot of that He was a christian.

29:34

I mean he wrote the majority of the new testament um and so so that is that is something that god does he does test people in that way, but Doesn't it seem you know a little ingenuous to just say well, you know

29:51

Hey that that african kid is just starving either because they're being tested or because god just doesn't love them like is that Is that the way that you know, we are

30:02

Knowing this information that's revealed to us from the scriptures. Is that the way that we're supposed to respond?

30:09

uh to these sorts of You know retorts or accusations Claiming that you know, our god is engine, you know ingenuous or he he's actually just an unloving god in every way um you know, what what should our response be to people making the making those kinds of claims and Should we even have you know should should our first knee -jerk response be when we're presented the you know the suffering um person in general

30:40

Should our first knee -jerk response be to just say well god's just testing them or to say well god just doesn't love them

30:46

That's that's the clear and obvious answer Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I mean when people will point out the starving african kids in that way as examples of um, so like the the assumption behind that kind of question is that Like everyone is morally neutral and everyone deserves god's fatherly care basically so when you think about something along those lines,

31:11

I mean africa is just a hotbed for demon worship and you know shamanism and like witchcraft and Paganism and everything else.

31:21

So I mean obviously christianity came to the west and god has uniquely Blessed the west on account of the christianity that Has been character

31:32

Characteristic of the west in that way And of all the technological advancements that you see that are miracles to like third world countries

31:39

I mean, those are the blessings that come from a christian worldview That's the blessings that come from god like in the in the in the first case

31:47

And so when you think about things along those lines, I mean god, um God severely like he

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Severely judges like the inhabitants of the land. He doesn't have a saving fatherly relationship with everyone so you know when you think about like The like the the examples of starving africans a lot of what's happening there is you have this um, um

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The the west basically is just taking On itself certain responsibilities for everything that happens in the world

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And we're basically at this point like, you know, whatever a nation prospers in certain ways They're blamed for basically every bad thing that's ever happened in the world.

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But then we're being blamed for everything Like as if it's our responsibility to fix every single problem that exists in the world if that makes sense

32:38

And you know, this is these are like responsibilities that we can't bear and then you know

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So the west is being like blamed for this. So you see the starving africans and you're supposed to think well That's my fault somehow, right?

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Like i'm i'm Living in my nice house And if I wasn't living in my nice house, then I I could you know

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Feed all the starving africans and fix all the fundamental problem. The issue is like the world is like like, um

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It's a god -centered world. This is the world that god's made. He he um, he hasn't just distributed his blessings evenly among everyone

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And he doesn't necessarily have a salvific love for everyone in that way So like the issue is you can look at a situation like that And if you assume that he has some salvific fatherly love for everyone

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Then it brings about certain questions that you may not even be asking, you know in in the same kind of way so meaning like you could read passages like psalm 37 25 i've i've been young and i've been

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And now i'm old yet. I've not seen the righteous forsaken or his children begging bread so,

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I mean certainly, um Christians can go through difficult times but As a generality the way the world works i've been young i've been old

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I've never not seen that the righteous forsaken or his children begging bread. I mean you think about the promises that god has in It in the gospels.

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Jesus basically says, you know, why what do you worry about your life? What you're going to eat what you're going to wear your body what the clothes you're going to put on?

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You know Is not your life more than food and clothing? Consider the lilies of field like they're more majestic than solomon raiden all of his glory

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Look at the birds of the air if god so close The grass of the field and feeds the birds of air so much more he'll clothe and feed you or you have little faith so the idea is that god has like a fatherly love and care for Us, you know as his people and he promises to take care of us in different ways

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And he promises to take care of the world in general And so like the fact that god feeds like god through his common grace.

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He feeds The birds and he feeds the world in general But like these blessings aren't equally distributed among everyone if that makes sense and so that you know

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A lot of people are reaping the bitter consequences of their rebellion against him, you know so,

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I mean you think about like some of the Horrific things that have happened in like these atheistic communistic countries

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I mean, there's certainly an aspect of that that it's just an evidence of god's judgment upon them that they're utterly destroying each other and Destroying themselves and you can't like just like isolate.

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I mean you can't you can you can shine a spotlight on any individual in the midst of That situation where a particular area is under the massive judgment of god

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You can shine a spotlight on them And then if your basic assumption is that that's fundamentally a good person And they don't deserve anything that they're getting and they're owed god's fatherly care

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Then you can like you can look at them and you say hey, yeah God is doing them some kind of injustice and you know, doesn't it ring hollow?

35:29

It's just some kind of trial and this doesn't look like love and everything else. It's like well Certainly like christians go through suffering

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Certainly christians go through trial trials and some of those trials can be even significant meaning like be faithful unto death and you'll receive

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The crown of life like we're not like individuals who hope in this life only we're hoping in eternity

35:49

Like certainly all those things are true But then I would just I would basically just challenge the assumption that god

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Like has the same kind of love for everyone in that way Um, and that he's determined determined to have fatherly care for everyone in the same way

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So, you know as christians like what we're what we need to do is we need to bring the good news to these kind of people because god certainly like like with the knowledge that like god

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Certainly wants like at the end of time there's going to be you know A multitude of believers from every tribe tribe and nation and responsible bring the good news to everyone

36:24

Uh, so you shouldn't just camp out in some kind of perspective that if they're not currently saved That means that god hates them or something along those lines and you shouldn't show any compassion for them

36:33

But it is to say that if they're not if they're not, um, if they're god haters, they don't deserve god's mercy

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They don't deserve god's fatherly care And the only way that they are going to receive that is if they repent of their sins and believe the good news uh, which will be you know

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Which is going to happen if he has chosen him before the foundation of the world Anyways, you know if that makes sense and so that and that's not like advocating some sort of fatalism

36:56

It's just basically saying the obvious so but I think you you look at these kind of situations and you have a lot of christians

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Who experience are experiencing a lot of guilt? over like the nature of um

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Living in a prosperous country and that that is basically under attack in every single conceivable way and So, you know,

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I I don't think we have to bear all that guilt and take all that responsibility and we have to remind people basic things that we all start out the world as objects of god's wrath and He doesn't owe us mercy.

37:26

He doesn't owe us grace. He doesn't owe us compassion I mean the fact that the rain falls on the just and unjust the elitist is called that common grace, right?

37:33

They don't call that entitlement God owes you You know that so like uh, if god wiped us all off the face of the earth like he did with the flood

37:41

We would deserve it for sure right Yeah, and and I think you bring up an important point

37:47

In the fact that you know, just because just because god tells us. Hey You know, he makes it very clear that he loves certain people and he hates other people

37:57

That doesn't necessarily mean we can always act as if we know Who the loved people are and who the hated people are right?

38:06

We're supposed to share the gospel to everyone man, right? And that's one of the you know, when you talk about like calvinism, for example, that's one of the critiques from people who you know who

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Don't share our view and in that, you know theological area. They'll always say well

38:22

What's even the point of sharing the gospel? Why even share it because the because the elect are going to get saved no matter what you do and it's like well

38:29

Yeah, god doesn't need me to do anything. He can he can do anything he wants without me

38:35

Being faithful ever like i'm not holding god back in any way However at the same time god's still given me as well as all christians a certain responsibility

38:46

And he's allowing us to you know partake in the ministry of reconciliation So yes, while every person will be saved that is elect

38:56

We still have to go share the gospel to remain faithful we god hasn't told us who the elect are

39:02

We don't have special glasses that help us see the elect and the non -elect And in this, you know in a similar vein god hasn't given us glasses that tell us, you know

39:11

God loves this person, but god hates that person Yeah, and so we can't necessarily act as if we know however at the same time

39:19

It seems like what you're saying is while we can't know individually Whether or not a person is

39:26

You know like in the moment, you know loved or unloved We we also can't act as if god.

39:34

Um Just loves everyone You know since we can't know we've we've just got to default to well, he loves everyone he must right that doesn't make any sense scripturally, so um, but okay,

39:45

I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the conversation on and Uh, so thank you tim for answering all my questions related to that.

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Um, i'm sure Hopefully this will be helpful for a lot of people because like I like I said at the beginning

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This is just a question you're going to be asked And you need to have a response and that response needs to be biblical.

40:05

It can't just be something that um that you're just getting because that's that's what everyone's always told you you have to go and you have to have a response that lines

40:13

Up with all of scripture not just you know, certain verses that that can be twisted to mean one thing uh, and you know simultaneously ignoring all the others that are very clear, um

40:25

And hard to explain away, you know, if you if you don't if you don't fall in line with them um, and so we we need to be prepared to answer these questions and and And just to understand god's nature like you

40:38

I appreciated that you said that tim that god isn't Only love he there's there's a ton

40:46

More characteristics to god than just love And we need to understand that otherwise a lot of things that happen in the bible just won't make sense at all

40:54

They they just won't so Uh, but with that all that being said, uh, we appreciate all you guys listening a weekend and week out supporting us

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42:40

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