If God Loves Everyone Then How Could He Allow Suffering?

You can shine a spotlight on any individual in the midst of That situation where a particular area is under the massive judgment of god. You can shine a spotlight on them. And then if your basic assumption is that that's fundamentally a good person And they don't deserve anything that they're getting and they're owed god's father.

They care. Then you can like you can look at them and you say hey, yeah. Well god is doing them some kind of injustice.

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People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio. Message of christianity is that salvation is found in christ alone. And any who reject christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation any hope of heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty god is Hanging over our head. They will hear his words They will not act upon him and when the floods of divine judgment when the fires of wrath come They will be consumed and they will perish.

God wrapped himself in flesh Condescended and became a man died on the cross for sin was resurrected on the third day Has ascended to the right hand of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us.

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words They will act upon them and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day their house will stand.

The Question of Whether God Loves Everyone

Welcome to bible bash where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions You're not allowed to ask. We're your host harrison kerrigan pastor tim mullet and today we'll answer the age-old question If god loves everyone, how could he allow suffering?

And tim, I think this is one of those questions that pretty much every christian is going to get asked by believers and non-believers alike because Everyone sees suffering in the world. We're not oblivious to the fact that there's suffering In the world, we might be oblivious to how much suffering there is in the world.

But we know that this this can be a cruel place to live in. And there's you know, there's famine all the time. There's people who go without water clothing shelter. People who are taken advantage of all of these things and then they keep hearing from christians that god loves everyone.

God loves everyone. God loves everyone which doesn't seem to Uh. Make sense when you look at all the suffering in the world. So so what is your response typically? When when people ask you this if god loves everyone, how could he allow suffering?

Yeah, well, he doesn't. He does he doesn't what? He doesn't he doesn't allow suffering. He doesn't love everyone. He doesn't love everyone. Okay. Well that that seems to be a that seems to fly in the face of probably what most christians would believe.

Uh, at least most most of the people that i've talked to so so why don't you flesh that out a little bit? Why why do you why do you say? God doesn't love everyone. Yeah.

God Hates the Wicked and Shows Common Grace

I mean sure romans 9 13 tells us as it is written jacob have I loved but he saw have I hated. Right. So what should we say then? Is there any injustice on god's part by no means where he says moses? I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion, right so Like the idea that god just loves everyone universally in the same kind of way.

It's just is there's nothing biblical about that. I mean you could read through the bible and you see that god is righteous judge. He's Angry with the wicked every day. Um, if god like if he universally loves everyone in the same kind of sense then you know, obviously There wouldn't be any doctrine of hell at that point.

Uh, so yeah god god certainly he he. He he not only does he hate, you know the sin But he also hates the sinner and that hatred of the sinner is going to be expressed eternally in hell forever Where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched.

So um, you know, I think we have a bit of a sentimental understanding of What theologians call common grace in general? So I mean god obviously causes a brain to Fall in the just and the unjust. And he obviously is willing to save um human beings if they repent of their sins and believe the good news but they got but the bible definitely doesn't picture god as just Having an unconditional love for every human being that manifests itself in You know his like positive favorable circumstances for them for sure.

So So What I mean there I think yeah, I just I think a lot of people. Where are people getting this idea that god loves everyone? Because that's that is. I mean, you know I know very few people who Seem to naturally come to the conclusion that god hates anyone.

Except maybe like the devil. Maybe they'd say god hates the devil or something. Um, but they would never say that god hates people. Uh, and I think that's why that that phrase is so common, you know, um.

Hate this hate the sin love the sinner, right? Uh, that's a very common Phrase that people say where we live at least. And so why is it so common? Why do people have such a skewed view? Of Who god loves and who he doesn't love?

When the bible is pretty clear that God says he he loves certain people and he hates other people. Yeah. Well, let me give you some verses.

Scripture on Divine Hatred and Human Rebellion

So I want to give you a few more verses to talk about this and then i'll give you. Like the counter argument that why people have think that god universally loves everyone in this way. But I mean psalm 5 5 god hates all workers of iniquity.

Leviticus 20 23 and you shall not walk in the manners of the nations. Which I cast out before you for they committed all these things and therefore I abhorred them. Uh Deuteronomy 18 12 for all that do these things are an abomination to the lord.

And because of these abominations the lord your god will drive them out before thee. So deuteronomy 25 16 all that do unrighteously or an abomination to the lord. Deuteronomy 32 16 to 28 provoked him to jealousy with strange gods with abomination.

They provoked him to anger and when the lord saw it He abhorred them. Um, so like this is i've given you like five or six verses like this, but there's a big long list of verses that are Just like this, right?

So, um psalm 10 3 the wicked you know Whom the lord abhors like it just goes on and on and on there's just a big long list of verses along these lines, but I suppose you know it like right now the most Probably the most well-known verse in the bible today is judged not lest you be judged.

So that's probably the sure number one bible verse but it used to be for many years that the You know the most famous well-known bible verse was john 3 16 and if there's any bible verse that anyone knew it would be because it would be john 3 16 and a lot of that's Due to you know guys like billy graham and everything else.

But you know john 3 16 says for god so loved the world. That he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. So, you know you have john 3 john 3 16 says god so loved the world and part of what's happening is that People have never really thought through what the word the world means in this context.

So they're basically making poor assumptions about the nature of what this word means. So like the word is cosmos and they're basically assuming that the word cosmos means every Single human being who has ever existed, right?

Mm-hmm, but then that's really it's it's um. Like even in english like like the word cosmos like it. It it's being translated as world and the the most natural meaning of the word world is not people.

Anyways, do you see what i'm saying? Right. Like meaning like like the word cosmos is a word that doesn't necessarily like it doesn't intuitively Mean all people who have ever existed in the first instance so this is a word that really is quite flexible in the bible and Just to give you an indication of how flexible it is.

Like think about what like this is a word that shows up in first john multiple times. So just think about this verse in first john. Uh, so do not love the world. What does that mean? Well, you got a few options right like so think like think about do not.

Do not love the world. Well under this view world can't mean every human being who's ever lived, right? Right because then like we've committed the impartable sin and basically said that we shouldn't that we shouldn't love everyone.

Uh, but like so but think about it like do not love the world or things in the world. There's several options like one of those options is like the world as in the actual globe. Like the earth, right?

So yeah, the physical world we live on right, right.

Another option is just to say like the entire universe, right? Like the cause like the cosmos like the idea of the cosmos is the entire universe. So everything right so you can have like the globe like the earth as a globe.

You can have like the idea of the entire cosmos. You can have the idea of um. Like worldliness, right? So in in in um. In first john that says do not love the world. The most natural idea is not like the earth the most natural idea is not uh, the entire cosmos right there the most actual idea for that word in that context is The sinful human system that's like set itself in opposition against god, right?

So the sinful world system is held under the sway of the evil one. So do not love the world. Or the things in the world. So notice same word there. So don't love the world of things in the world. Well the things in the world that's the things in the earth, right.

So but you notice how the same word is used in two different Senses in the same verse, right? So yeah, do not like so first it's saying do not love the sinful human system and then it's saying Or the things in the world like the earth, right?

For all this in the earth, right all this in the world. It's not it's not of god, but it's of the world. So, you know, you're basically, um. You're going back and forth between like the universe like the earth like the the earth.

Sinful humanity and rebellion against god so when you read first john when you read john 3 16 the issue is that you're not supposed to Like just assume that naturally this just means Every human being who's ever lived.

Right. So this is a word that can mean a bunch of different things. So if you look it up, um Cosmos can means can mean that which serves to beautify through decoration. Adornment or adorning it can mean the condition of orderliness.

Orderly arrangement order it can mean the sum total of everything here and now like the world like the universe essentially, right? It can mean that I mean, um. It can mean um, it can mean like sinful humanity and rebellion against god.

It can mean the planet or the earth the inhabitant the place of inhabitants. Uh, but yeah, I mean so it can mean like humanity in general like not necessarily every human being but human beings, right?

Like humanity in general. Like so basically i'm just uh the system of human existence in as many aspects um. So like it can be a collective aspect of an entity like the totality or the sum so like. The issue here is just to say when you're when you're reading this verse for god.

So love the world that he gave his only son that whoever blazes him should not perish but have everlasting life. You're supposed to read that in context and in context what that means is it means all people without Distinction not necessarily all people without exception like meaning like god loved not just the jews.

He loves humanity in general therefore because he loves humanity in general like people without um. Without distinction meaning not just he doesn't just love the jews. He also loves the gentiles. So he's sending us a right so that whoever would believe in him is going to not perish but have everlasting life.

So basically you just have this verse which is being read in a very like this word that's being read. In a very unconventional way, right? In a very specific way that is Making a very specific theological statement that is preventing you from like reading like these other 20 verses.

Some of which i've quoted some which I haven't or more, you know, so there's a lot of verses like this basically.

God’s Glory, Providence, and the Meaning of Suffering

Well, yeah, I I think that I think that is um, you know, I was actually having a conversation about this the other day with someone where. Where I was basically just asking him like hey, what do you do with these verses then?

You know and this person wasn't necessarily in the Uh, god loves everyone camp, but he was probably more like a You know one foot in that but then also knowing in the back of his head that there's Probably a lot more to it.

Yeah, and and it seems like there's a lot of doctrines that sort of fall apart. If you go full in the he loves everyone camp. So I was just asking him, you know, hey, what do you do with these verses?

Where god just says straight up? I mean, you know the ones you read it's just he's straight up saying he hates certain people. Right like there with no with no. Um. You know, sometimes people argue with the jacob and the esau verse it's like well.

He's not saying he hates one and he loves the other he's saying He chose one and he denied the other right. So what what is your response? First of all, what's your response to that just quickly? He chose one and not the other and that's why he said I love jacob.

I love but he saw I hated. Well, I mean, it's a very strange way.

It's a very strange way of just communicating a lack of choice in someone particularly when the implications of that lack of choice Are eternal conscious suffering forever and ever right? So like if that right if it if it's love that like the issue is if it's love that sends like people to hell then.

Like that's a very strange definition of love, right? Like the most loving thing I can do for you is to punish you forever and ever in hell. Like so the issue is a lot of people they only think about god in terms of one attribute.

They don't think about him in terms of the other aspects of his character. And so they're trying to read like the entirety of the way that god interacts. Through the to the world like through the lens of you know, god is love.

It's like yes. God is love. He's also wrath. He's also holy like holy. Holy. Holy, right? So he's he's more than just this one attribute like that's the problem. And so I mean basically you just have all these verses that say the same Thing right?

So like you just have verse after verse after verse. If any man does not love the lord jesus christ, let him be anathema right which means accursed of the lord um. Um, so these six things does the lord hate the a7 are abomination to him.

Like so notice the six things the lord hates. The seventh is an abomination a false witness that speaks lies and he that sows discord among the brother brothers are listed. So I mean, there's just verse after verse that says the same kind of thing.

Um, you know Theologians used to know this we used to be able to say these kind of things. So here's a quote from uh, Augustine basically he says for may it be that god hates a person to the degree more mildly as to not destroy him.

But whom he destroys he hates the more exceedingly. Uh by how much he punishes more severely now, he hateth all those who work iniquity. But all those who speak lies he also destroys. Here's edward's quote the lord.

Are god that holds you over the pit of hell much in the same way one holds a spider or some loathsome insect over the fire. Abhors you and is dreadfully provoked his wrath towards you burns like a fire.

He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into that fire. He has a purer eyes than the bear. To have you in his sight. You are ten thousand thousand times more abominable in his sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours.

You know, that's a from sinners in the hands of the angry god. But this these are just this is just like common knowledge to a church. It's history basically just living in a unique time that's filled with.

This somewhat irrational view of god's love in this instance.

Trials, Mercy, and God’s Ultimate Purpose

Right. Yeah, and and it really is irrational if you think about the various bible verses like like the ones that you read where it's just. I mean as black and white as black and white can be. Right, you know like they're and and the problem is just once you accept this god loves everyone view.

Then you know, I I don't know what you do with those verses anymore. Other than just try to pretend they don't exist or try to explain them away through some sort of. Yep, you know mental gymnastics. I I don't know what you do with it.

But then the other problem it leads to is this problem right now that we're talking about, you know, if god loves everyone How could he allow suffering in the world? So so the question is based on a faulty presupposition meaning.

The person asking this question thinks god loves everyone. But if he loves everyone that that can't make sense. That he loves everyone because he allows suffering who loves someone by allowing them to suffer right and.

Uh now, you know. There is there is like a workaround to that, right? Sure to um, you know loving someone. But also allowing them to suffer and that would be. Letting them, you know. Essentially you're letting them suffer so that they learn knowing that they're going to ultimately be okay.

Right. So for the sake of learning some sort of lesson, right? Basically like going through a trial and um, you know coming out of the other end of that trial having been made a better person. For facing the adversity, right?

Um, and and that's certainly something that god does. I mean god tells us that he does that, you know, we're told to rejoice when we face trials um because they're um. Perfect god uses them to perfect our faith, right?

So so there is that aspect of god's love but. But then, you know, does that apply in every situation where there is suffering? What what is your response to that?

Yeah, sure. So I mean I think part of what you have to do when you're trying to answer a topic along these lines It's just to think about these things in terms of ultimate. Um, priorities in that way meaning meaning, um.

So god god certainly, uh, like when you think about like the totality of a person's existence. Like life is temporary right life is temporary and life God has plans for this life. And so, you know part of what's happening in a question like this is that we've turned this.

We've turned these thoughts so in such a man-centered direction that We basically think first and foremost about all god's actions as if they're for like in the first instance directed towards us, right?

So like that's Part of the problem here. So like everything got like the issue is that everything god does he does first and foremost for his glory. So this is you know, this is what romans is telling us at that point that what if god Would like with much patience and long suffering Endured like vessels of wrath who are prepared for destruction in order that he may make known the riches of his glory to those who?

Love him, right? So like the idea is that like god is A jealous god god's first like his first priority is to reveal his character To his creation. So he's a loving god. He's a wrathful god. He wants to reveal those things and mercy is is kind of a Like it's it's a meaningless concept if there's no contrast, right?

So like meaning like if everyone got the same thing. Then we wouldn't be nearly as thankful for the mercy that he's shown us and unless there's some sort of contrast. So god because he's not just a simple being in the sense that like You know, all he is is just love like period the end.

That's all he is right like because he's because that's not the way that we under like he has different attributes. And i'm not trying to say that they're like separate attributes as if they're conflicting, right?

So god's a simple god in that way. He's not composed of parts for sure uh, but then like he like he um. He certainly like there's more to his nature than just love right in that way so like along those lines like basically my point is just to say that um, Like when we're thinking about trying to even answer questions along these lines first and foremost god is seeking his own glory and then he has ultimate plans for us and that like those plans like ultimately are going to if if we are his like if he Has self if salvific love for us the plans that he has for us are ultimately going to be for our good and for his glory but that doesn't mean that every single thing that happens in like from start to finish Is going to be like happy or pleasant or you know suffering free or everything else, right?

So like we're death row inmates we deserve We we all deserve hell. He's showing us mercy and he has an ultimate plan that's going to be for our good. So we know that all things work together for good to those who love god to those who are called according to his purpose.

Meaning like the destination of his people isn't ultimately just going to be suffering without end for all eternity. As punishment for like that would be him being just towards us. You see i'm saying like that would be him being just towards us but ultimately there's he has a good plan for his people now if you were to say like like His plan for his people is suffering without end as expressed throughout all eternity in hell.

Like there's no way you could say that would be a good plan. You see i'm saying.

Right. Yeah, that wouldn't that wouldn't fit.

That wouldn't make any sense. It wouldn't be um, I mean it could be uh, It could be a good plan in the sense that he has that plan for people for hell. But what i'm trying to say is you couldn't say that like that would be his providence directed in a good way towards you.

Like towards your good do you see i'm saying like it could be good in the sense that it reveals something about him. But it wouldn't be for your good like that would be for your destruction in that way, right?

So so when you're thinking about things along those lines, yes, god has a plan for his people. He has a plan that's that's for their good right is for his glory and for their good. And in the meantime, you know, that's going to be that's going to involve a lot of purifying right?

So he puts us through these trials in order to make us more like him like that's his plan. So he puts us through these trials to make us more like him and to glorify himself as like we are witnesses to The power that's at work in us like him coming to live inside of us.

So certainly, you know, all those things are true. But then on the other end of things. I mean you you know as you think about Just all the rest of the suffering in the world when most people are asking these kind of questions like the the flawed premise is the idea that People are getting something they don't deserve, right?

Right. So like how can a loving god allow, you know suffering or whatever? It's like well step one. He doesn't love everyone right and then step two like step two is just to say that um, You know like what people are getting is just and and and god is revealing certain aspects of his character there so the issue is like how like the real question is more how could a holy god allow anyone to Live more than a few minutes, you know.

If you think about that like how even a few seconds because we're born and conceived in iniquity and sin. So how could he even tolerate our existence knowing what he says about his character and you know these other places?

So yeah it's um.

It's a bad question. That's basically yeah, definitely it definitely has a faulty premise um to begin with but then it does lead to I think a follow-up question and You know, okay, so so if the you know, if the premise itself is faulty god doesn't love everyone.

God creates some people to experience suffering untold suffering in this life. And then even worse in the next right? How could you know? Like What's the point of that? Why why create that person to begin with if all they're made to do is suffer?

And die and then suffer forever.

Vessels of Wrath and Vessels of Mercy

Yeah, I mean this is obvious. I mean this is a question that um. The bible actually answers fairly directly. Okay so see. Uh, let's see Romans 9 22 What if god desiring to show his wrath and to make his power known has endured with much patient patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

In order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he's prepared beforehand for glory. So like the issue is like this is actually a question that god answers. He basically said he basically gives you the answer to that question.

Like so the idea is that yes god created certain individuals for destruction in order to make his power known, right? So like that's what he says he did so he created like these vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

He endured with much patience these vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, right? So it's to make his power known. And to demonstrate his patience. Those are two reasons so far right? And then it says in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy.

Which he's prepared beforehand for glory. So like the idea there is just to say that yes, he's endured with much patience. These vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. In order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy.

Meaning like the fact that god would save me. A scoundrel, you know, i'm scoundrel just like everyone else. But the fact that he would save me Is breathtaking, right? And it's something that you appreciate you appreciate because you understand that god's holy and you don't deserve that right?

And you see the consequences of sin that are expressed for all eternity in hell and then when you think about the fact that he He chose to have mercy on you there's nothing you can do with that other than just you know.

Give praise to the glory of his grace at that point. Because you deserve just what they they deserve so, you know part of so the issue is the answer to this question is that god ultimately he He's he's a holy god.

He's a righteous god. He's a just god. He's a loving god. He's a merciful god and we see all these aspects of his character in the way that he created the world allowed it to fall. Chose, you know people, um.

To be his own treasured possession. You know from from the midst of that before the foundation of world, right? So like the issue is that like in like the way that he's made the world has uniquely revealed his glory in that way.

Suffering, Africa, and the Justice of God

Okay, now now the reason that we're doing this. So so basically you're saying Hey god, you know God shows mercy to some people to demonstrate his Merciful kindness his graciousness and then he uh, he shows his wrath towards others to demonstrate his power and patience right um.

Now the reason that we are even doing this episode is because someone on twitter. Uh, I I don't know actually I can't remember now. I don't think they were responding to us but they were responding to someone else that that we follow and we interact with a fair amount and uh posted this picture.

You know, I don't I I guess you could call it a meme. I don't really think it's necessarily a meme. But it's it's a picture of this starving African child right and then at the top of it. It says tell him how god has a plan.

Tell him how it's all part of god's design and he's just being tested um, so You know, obviously we talked we talked about the fact that there are times where god does test us and you know and and it even seems like Tests us, uh, not every single christian obviously, but does test some people.

Uh in extreme ways like what's being talked about? I mean you you think about paul for example where where he says that he's learned to do well with a lot and he's learned to do well with a little right and you know, he's he was um Stranded at sea for several days.

He was shipwrecked a few different times. Um in prison beaten Uh went without food, you know all all of these things paul, you know paul faced a lot of that. He was a christian. I mean he wrote the majority of the new testament um and so so that is that is something that god does he does test people in that way, but Doesn't it seem you know a little ingenuous to just say well, you know.

Hey that that african kid is just starving either because they're being tested or because god just doesn't love them like is that. Is that the way that you know, we are Knowing this information that's revealed to us from the scriptures.

Is that the way that we're supposed to respond? Uh to these sorts of you know retorts. Or accusations. Claiming that you know, our god is engine, you know ingenuous or he he's actually just an unloving god in every way um you know, what what should our response be to people making the making those kinds of claims and should we even have you know, should should our first knee-jerk response be when we're presented the You know the suffering Um person in general.

Should our first knee-jerk response be to just say well god's just testing them or to say well god just doesn't love them. That's that's the clear and obvious answer.

Providence, Common Grace, and the Prosperity of the West

Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I mean when people will point out the starving african kids in that way as examples of so like the the assumption behind that kind of question is that Like everyone is morally neutral and everyone deserves god's fatherly care basically so when you think about something along those lines, I mean africa is just a hotbed for demon worship and you know shamanism and like witchcraft and Paganism and everything else.

So I mean obviously christianity came to the west and god has uniquely blessed the west on account of the christianity that Has been character Characteristic of the west in that way. And all the technological advancements that you see that are miracles to like third world countries.

I mean, those are the blessings that come from a christian worldview. Those are the blessings that come from god like in the in the in the first case. And so when you think about things along those lines, I mean god God severely like he Severely judges like the inhabitants of the land.

He doesn't have a saving fatherly relationship with everyone so, you know when you think about like the like the the examples of starving africans a lot of what's happening there is you have this um, um.

The the west basically is just taking On itself certain responsibilities for everything that happens in the world. And we're basically at this point like, you know, whatever a nation prospers in certain ways.

They're blamed for basically every bad thing that's ever happened in the world. But then we're being blamed for everything. Like as if it's our responsibility to fix every single problem that exists in the world if that makes sense and You know, this is these are like responsibilities that we can't bear and then you know.

So the west is being like blamed for this. So you see the starving africans and you're supposed to think well, that's my fault somehow, right? Like i'm i'm Living in my nice house. And if I wasn't living in my nice house, then I I could you know Feed all the starving africans and fix all the fundamental problem.

The issue is like the world is like like, um. It's the god-centered world. This is the world that god's made. He he um, he hasn't just distributed his blessings evenly among everyone. And he doesn't necessarily have a salvific love for everyone in that way.

So like the issue is you can look at a situation like that. And if you assume that he has some salvific fatherly love for everyone. Then it brings about certain questions that you may not even be asking, you know in in the same kind of way so meaning like you could read passages like psalm 37 25 i've i've been young and i've been.

And now i'm old yet. I've not seen the righteous forsaken or his children begging bread so, I mean certainly, um Christians can go through difficult times but As a generality of the way the world works i've been young i've been old I've never not seen the righteous forsaken or his children begging bread.

I mean you think about the promises that god has in It in the gospels. Jesus basically says, you know, why what do you worry about your life? Are you going to eat what you're going to wear your body the clothes you're going to put on?

You know is not your life more than food and clothing. Consider the lowlies have filled like they're more majestic than solomon raid and all of his glory. Look at the birds of the air if god's so close The grass of the field and feeds the birds of air so much more he'll clothe and feed you or you have little faith.

So the idea is that god has like a fatherly love and care for Us and you know as his people and he promises to take care of us in different ways. And he promises to take care of the world in general. And so like the fact that god feeds like god through his common grace.