A Daily Devotional with DEEP THEOLOGY? Yes! (Interview with Author Will Dobbie)

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Today I'm going to be interviewing the author of From Everlasting to Everlasting, Every Believer's Biography.

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Stay tuned.

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Conversations with a Calvinist begins right now.

00:30

Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist, my name is Keith Foskey and I am a Calvinist.

00:37

And today on the program I am welcoming two friends and we're going to be talking about the book From Everlasting to Everlasting, Every Believer's Biography.

00:47

And I have with me today Will Dobby, who is the author of this book, and David Martin who did the audio of the book.

00:56

If you get this book on audio, which is the way that the current format that I'm going through it on, you'll be able to hear David's wonderful voice.

01:03

That smooth talker, David, will be the one leading you through your daily devotions.

01:09

Gentlemen, I want to thank you both for being with me today.

01:12

Great to be here.

01:13

Thanks for having me.

01:14

Thank you.

01:15

Thank you, Will.

01:15

Didn't mean to talk over you there.

01:16

Sorry.

01:17

Yeah.

01:18

A three-man podcast is sometimes a little bit difficult.

01:20

We'll try to make sure we know what we're doing as we go.

01:25

But again, I want to just say right away that I have been incredibly blessed by this book, even though I will admit right away that I haven't completed it all the way.

01:35

I started it as I wanted to try to get through it as quick as I could to do the podcast, but then it was so much meat that it was more than I really wanted to do every day.

01:46

So I have slowed down to doing what it was designed for, which is a daily devotional.

01:53

Like I said, I did the first several days all at once, and then I had to stop.

01:58

I was like, boy, this is like drinking out of a fire hydrant.

02:01

It's more than I was able to do.

02:03

So now I'm taking it day by day, and I have come to find that I'm so encouraged by it that I'm actually looking forward to getting copies of this to give to people in our church.

02:14

We were talking in our pre-show conversation about the fact that I want to be able to use this with our deacons as a way for them to minister to their wives.

02:24

One of the things that my wife and I talk about sometimes is how men's Bible studies tend to talk about things like superlapsarianism, and women's Bible studies talk about things not so deep, and that's not always fair.

02:40

Sometimes the ladies' Bible studies don't do the things that the men do, and I don't think that's fair.

02:45

I think the women deserve to be just as fed and just as deeply encouraged by the Word of God.

02:52

So Will, I want to say right away, one of the things that I'm hoping to use your book for is a way for men in the church who are studying these things to be able to use this tool to bless their wives.

03:06

So right away, I wanted to say thank you for that.

03:08

I think you've given the church a good tool to do that.

03:12

I appreciate that, and thanks for the encouragement, Brooke.

03:15

Yeah, that's my passion and heart, is for it to strengthen the church.

03:22

I think some writers out there have this gift that I would love to have, and I'm trying to gain, which is making deep, rich, substantive theology very accessible without dumbing it down.

03:35

And secular writers, I think of people like George Orwell, a hero of mine, Eric Blair, as he was really called, and I think it was he who said, a good sentence is like a pane of glass.

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In other words, you're not distracted by the words themselves, you see straight through it to what it is the words are talking about.

03:57

You almost don't notice the writing, it makes things so clear.

04:02

And I think Christian authors with that same gift would include guys like Wayne Grudem.

04:06

And not to say I necessarily agree with everything he believes, but just the way he writes in, for example, his systematic theology, he just communicates deep, rich theology in a way that even I can understand it.

04:19

So I just think that's a good gift for writers to have.

04:22

And it's one I want to try and develop.

04:25

And yeah, I just want it to help strengthen all and any believers, because I believe God's truths are within reach of all of us, you know, why he gave them to us.

04:37

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

04:39

And I know you would probably agree with this, but one of the men that was so valuable in my life, and I know he's been in this for so many people.

04:47

But Dr.

04:48

R.C.

04:48

Sproul had that gift of being able to take the most difficult and deep theological truths and explain them like he was your grandfather, and you were just sort of sitting in his house, and the way he talked was such a blessing.

05:02

And like I said, I'm getting that from your book as well.

05:05

It takes these deep theological truths.

05:07

Today was on the subject of justification, and I get up in the morning, I do my devotionals first thing, and I'm listening, like I said, I'm listening to David's voice.

05:19

That's my morning routine now, is he's in my head.

05:23

You poor guy.

05:25

Yeah, hey, I love it.

05:27

In fact, later I have a question for you about audiobooks, but I'm going to save that in my back pocket, because I do have a specific audiobook question, sort of an ethical question for you on that.

05:38

So remind me if I don't get back to it.

05:41

But I get up in the morning, I'm preparing myself for the day, and I always have my Bible scripture that I'm going through, and typically that's my devotional time, is also related to my sermons.

05:54

Some pastors don't like to do that, but I like to be in the devotion of whatever it is I'm preaching, and that's sort of where I do my daily stuff, is in that text.

06:02

Right now I'm in Genesis, I'm fixing to be in Colossians, but then I go immediately to your book, and I'm fed something that's out of the realm of whatever it is I'm studying.

06:09

Because I'm not studying justification right now, but that's what I'm able to do.

06:15

And it's great.

06:16

Like I said, I just find it to be a genuine blessing.

06:19

But I do want to step back, and for the audience member who may not even realize what it is we're talking about, your book, and again, the title, From Everlasting to Everlasting, Every Believer's Biography, it's obviously a wonderful title, but I think it might be that some people don't understand what that means, and what it is, and I don't want to talk for you, but I do want to see if I get this right.

06:44

You're saying that every believer who is genuine has had this one experience, and that is, you've gone through the order of salvation, which is, in Latin, we call the ordo salutis.

06:55

What made you come up with that title, though, Every Believer's Biography? I think it's smart, I think it's interesting, but was that your idea? Was that something you and the publishers worked on, Will? How'd that come about? I remember sitting in my car outside my uncle's house, I was going to visit him and his family just before moving here to the US.

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We've just been here a year, my wife's American, that's what we're doing here.

07:20

And just kind of mulling over the book, and it just came out of nowhere.

07:26

But apart from the alliteration, I like it because, you know, we're a very story-oriented culture.

07:33

I think the Bible is a very story-oriented book, all about narrative.

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And salvation is a story, and it's a story we're living.

07:43

God is walking us down, and it's every believer's story, the story of every believer's existence from eternity past to eternity future.

07:52

So I guess, yeah, the title is just meant to try and sum up succinctly what the book's about.

08:02

It is every believer's biography.

08:04

Absolutely.

08:05

And can you, for just briefly, and obviously I know that this is what the book is about, but can you briefly give the audience just an idea of when we talk about order of salvation, let's say somebody is not steeped in theological language, they hear something like the term ordo salutis, and that, oh, I don't know what that is.

08:27

What do we mean? Are we, because I think about people who, maybe there are a lot of people out there who've not even thought about things like, well, which comes first? So when we talk about ordo salutis, how would you explain that to somebody who's never heard that idea before? I would tell that person, do not be scared off by the weird foreign term ordo salutis.

08:50

Like you said, it's Latin.

08:50

It just means order of salvation.

08:52

I think it was first termed by Lutheran theologians in about the 1720s.

08:57

But it's always been on display in the Bible from when Moses started writing the Pentateuch.

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And it really just describes the fact that our God is a God of order.

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He is sovereign.

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Things don't happen randomly or without his prior, perfect, loving, wise design.

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And that includes the process of our salvation.

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And the order of his salvation is his ordained sequential steps by which he saves us.

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And, you know, different theologians frame them in different ways.

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And some theologians would say there are six stages or seven stages or nine stages.

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And so the book is 30 stages.

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That's just kind of it on steroids.

09:40

And I've inserted a few others to bridge some of the gaps.

09:44

But I think in the introduction, I say that the mainstream way that many reformed orthodox theologians would frame the order of salutis is election.

09:58

God choosing us.

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Calling God, drawing us to himself.

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Regeneration, God making us alive so that we can then repent and believe.

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Conversion, which is us repenting and believing by his grace.

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Justification.

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That would be number five.

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God declaring us righteous.

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Reconciliation.

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God then having declared us righteous, being able to draw us into his family.

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Reconciliation, sometimes known as adoption.

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Sanctification.

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God then cleaning us up from the inside out.

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Perseverance.

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God enabling us to keep going.

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And then glorification.

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We'll be sinless.

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We'll have glorified bodies.

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We'll enjoy heaven.

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And then ultimately the new creation.

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So it's just this beautiful sequence that the Lord has laid out for us.

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It's a pathway along which he's leading us.

10:52

Yeah, absolutely.

10:53

And David, I'm going to pull you in here, because I want to ask you this question in regard to this, because we're all believers, we're all Christians, and I imagine the three of us probably have a very similar view on the steps.

11:06

But have you found, David, as you talk to people or maybe people have read the book or do you find anybody arguing about what goes before the other thing, or is that just something that maybe I deal with? Because obviously I have people on the program all the time of different theological stripes.

11:23

I have people who are Arminians.

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I have people who are charismatic.

11:25

I have people of different views.

11:27

And when it comes to the order of salvation, I think Reformed theology has a very, I don't want to say strict, but a very specific thing.

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This happens before this.

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Regeneration comes before faith.

11:39

These are some of the things that we are confirmed in.

11:42

But David, do you find people arguing against that and saying, well, I think this is that? Sure, sure.

11:48

And that's something that I think is sometimes easy to be drawn into somewhat fruitless arguments into online.

11:56

Not that the discussion is fruitless, or I should say not the topic of discussion is fruitless, but sometimes we get a little involved in arguing pedantic points in ways that are not particularly helpful.

12:08

Now, I am in agreement with what Will wrote in the book in terms of the order of salvation, and I know people, people whom I care about and wouldn't want to pick a fight with who might disagree on one point or another.

12:25

But I think the way Will put it is really helpful and really something that I'm in agreement with.

12:32

One thing that I did find interesting and that I think Will brought out in a way that I don't remember having explained so well before was the idea that one or more steps might happen simultaneously, and yet logically one precedes the other.

12:49

Will used the example of a car crash, and maybe you might remember that analogy better than I do, but talking about how when the crash occurs, there are multiple things happening, and they're happening at the same time, but one is happening because of the other.

13:05

The vehicle is getting crunched, and there is a potential, you know, there are other outcomes that flow from that, but they're all happening, they're sort of, in one way, sort of all the several things are happening at once at the same time at the moment of the accident.

13:21

Yeah, it wasn't so much a crash, it was more of a dink, and I haven't quite swept it out of my mind for like therapeutic self-protection.

13:29

What word did you use there, dink? Dink.

13:32

Dink, okay.

13:33

I just made up that word.

13:35

No, that's fine.

13:37

Is that a British word, or where are you from, actually, you said? England, yeah.

13:43

England, okay, all right.

13:45

It was one of those super annoying, embarrassing things where you just crunch the neighbor's car, you're traveling at about five to 10 miles an hour, no one's hurt, it was parked in his driveway, and I smashed his headlights or something.

14:02

Yeah, the impact and the dent in his car happened simultaneously, but the impact had to happen first for the dent then to happen.

14:12

In other words, although they were chronologically simultaneous, they were logically sequential, and I think that's the case with some of the aspects of the autosalutists.

14:22

But I'm like you, David, I've got, you know, great friends who are godly, wise, love the Bible, who disagree with some of this stuff.

14:31

You know, they're wrong.

14:32

I still love them.

14:32

But I write with a pastor's heart, not an academic, and I don't want to win argument for the sake of argument's sake.

14:39

I guess another burden of mine in the book is some of the pastoral applications of these truths.

14:46

I write with a preacher's heart.

14:47

I want people to cash these things out in terms of their own peace and joy and love and fruitfulness and so on.

14:57

Yeah, absolutely.

14:58

Absolutely.

14:59

And I find that too when I'm teaching, because, you know, we talk about the questions of, like I said, regeneration and faith and which one comes first.

15:07

And I find one that often comes up in conversation is the question of faith and repentance, you know, which is logically preceding the other.

15:16

And I have my own little idea about that, and I don't want to create a theological firestorm in this chat room.

15:24

But yeah, these are all questions that I know can divide people.

15:28

But the book is not divisive, and I want to make sure to be clear to say that you're explaining it, and I think you are taking the classical position that many of us who are Reformed would hold, that position, and logically working out why one thing creates or produces the other.

15:48

You know, the heart change that God wrought within us at regeneration is necessary for us to come to saving faith, for us to repent of our sin and to trust in Him.

16:00

Yeah, and one of the big pastoral applications of stuff like insisting regeneration comes first is to say that we have a big God.

16:11

From everlasting to everlasting is an extract from a verse that says, from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

16:16

And I just want to make God seem as big as He is and not diminish that, you know, for our sakes.

16:27

So like I say, these aren't just vain academic how many angels can dance on a pinhead.

16:34

These are, they do have implications that impact our lives.

16:38

Absolutely.

16:39

Just this past week, I've been putting together little short videos on YouTube to go along with our YouTube channel, and one of the things that I responded to, it's just a one minute video, but I responded to a quote from Kenneth Copeland, who is obviously a health and wealth Word of Faith guy, who said that, you know, basically God is, God can't do anything we don't allow Him to do.

17:02

And that kind of thinking, right away— That makes him kind of a pathetic little God, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

17:09

And why would you worship a God? Why would you serve a God who has to answer to you? Yeah, yeah.

17:14

Yeah, absolutely.

17:16

So I do like, as you were just saying, I like that the book puts God on display.

17:21

It puts His majesty on display and shows that He is the one.

17:25

He's the one doing this.

17:26

He's the one who not only came up with the idea for the Order of Solution—not that God's ever had an idea—but the fact that He established through covenant His way of salvation and then put it forth and didn't ask our opinion.

17:41

He didn't ask for us to tell Him how to do it.

17:45

He didn't—He wasn't a politician seeking our vote.

17:48

He didn't need our permission.

17:50

That's right.

17:51

That's right.

17:51

That's right.

17:52

Absolutely.

17:53

All right.

17:53

At this point in the show, I do want to stop and speak to the audience real quick, and I want to say this.

17:58

These two men have been very, very generous, and we want to speak to you as to something they're offering.

18:04

And before we get to the next part of the program, I just want to say, if you are listening to this, whether it's on a podcast or YouTube or Facebook, we have the opportunity for you to get a free copy of the audiobook.

18:18

David has been very gracious to give us a few free copies.

18:23

And so what we are saying right now, if you would leave a comment on our YouTube page and leave a way for—as you comment, I'll contact you back, and we'll have a way to contact you.

18:34

With that, we will give you a free—is it a coupon code, David? It's a promo code for audible.com.

18:42

You have to have an account with audible.com or audible.co.uk, but if you have an account with either of those two, then it can be a promo code for a free copy downloadable through that service.

18:55

Awesome.

18:56

Awesome.

18:56

So we have—I think he said we have five, right, that we're going to do? So the first five people who come in, leave a comment.

19:04

I will contact you back.

19:06

We'll make a way for us to get that coupon code to you, and you'll be able to get a free audio version.

19:11

As I said, that's the way I'm going through the book right now is through the audiobook, and it's wonderful.

19:17

The voice is great.

19:18

Thumbs up to David.

19:20

And it's wonderful content, and we'll make that available to you for free for the first five people who will leave a comment on the YouTube page.

19:29

Now I want to do something also for our Facebook channel.

19:33

I'm going to do this.

19:34

Will also said—you said it was a 50% off of the actual hard copy of the book? Yeah, free.

19:41

Free for people who do whatever they have to—do whatever you say they have to do.

19:47

Okay, all right.

19:48

Five free copies.

19:49

Okay, so we'll do this on the Facebook channel then.

19:53

The first five people to leave a comment on the—and this is only in the Conversations with a Calvinist group, so if you're not part of the group, you can become a part.

20:04

It's a public group, so you can become a part of the group.

20:07

Leave a comment.

20:07

The first five people, I will contact you and make sure you get those copies from Will.

20:12

And again, Will, David, thank you very much for that generosity.

20:15

I'm sure we're going to be able to bless some people, and I'm just looking forward.

20:19

I think I'm going to create five accounts and go in—and I'm just going to go get five free copies so I can give them away.

20:26

I'm really looking forward to ordering the hard copies.

20:30

I don't have one in my hand.

20:31

That's the only thing I'm missing from this.

20:33

I know you offered to send me one, Will, and I just didn't know if I was going to get it in time, but I am so thankful to have the audiobook.

20:40

And that's the—let me go ahead and ask that question, because it is on my mind, David, and I've never talked to an audiobook narrator before.

20:48

So I have like—and this doesn't really go along with Will's book.

20:52

I hope you don't mind me asking this question, Will.

20:54

I just—this is a genuine question.

20:56

I want—and Will, you can feel free to give me your opinion, because I know differences of opinions on this are vast.

21:04

But I am an audiobook junkie.

21:06

I have listened to hours and hours.

21:09

I used to have a t-shirt business.

21:11

It was a side thing I did to make extra money for our home, because my wife is a mother, and I wanted to make extra money.

21:20

So I would stay up late at night, print t-shirts, and I would listen to hours and hours and hours of audiobooks.

21:25

And some of my favorite—you mentioned George Orwell.

21:27

George Orwell's 1984 and things like that.

21:29

So it wasn't just Christian books.

21:30

It was other books as well.

21:34

David, do you believe that if someone listens to an audiobook, that it is—that they should say, I read the book or I heard the book? Is that a—have you heard this question before? This is a raging debate in audiobook circles, although I will say it seems like most audiobook junkies, audiobook aficionados fall down on the side of, yes, you say you read the book if you listened to it.

22:03

I'm not actually convinced that that's the best application of that word, but it gets kind of pedantic.

22:08

To me, reading is observing, is part of the process.

22:13

But I can totally get that you want to say you read the book by listening to it.

22:19

It's pedantic.

22:20

I could argue it both ways.

22:22

I tend to say I listened to the book when I listened to an audiobook, and I say I read the book when I looked at text on paper or a screen.

22:29

But, you know, does it really matter? No, no.

22:33

But it matters to me, I guess, only in the sense that I usually say I've gone through the book.

22:39

That's what I say.

22:40

And that's become my— It's very diplomatic.

22:43

That's my sneaky way of saying—because I don't want to lie.

22:47

I don't want to say I've read something if I didn't actually look at it.

22:50

But in my heart, it's like I—sometimes the audiobook for me is better when it comes to retention and things like that.

22:58

And I tend to retain a lot of what I hear, especially if my hands are busy doing something else, but I'm listening.

23:05

Like if I'm mowing my lawn, it's the best, because I'm not thinking about mowing the tractor, you know, but I'm listening and I'm engaging.

23:13

What do you think, Will? Do you think it's wrong if somebody says I've read it? What are your thoughts? Well, I'm the same as you.

23:18

I'm a massive audiobook junkie.

23:21

I get through books.

23:23

That's one language I—better language I would use.

23:26

I get through books when I'm—when I was mowing the lawn yesterday, when I'm in the shower, when I'm running, when I'm driving.

23:33

Like it's good to redeem the time, right? But, you know, we haven't got long.

23:36

It's good to live urgently, and that's one way of doing it.

23:39

I sometimes say that I read a book through my ears as opposed to through my eyes.

23:46

I'm a musician by training and background, and I've got a very strong auditory memory.

23:52

I retain stuff better sometimes by hearing it than by seeing it.

23:57

Yeah, and I—me too, and that's why for me, sometimes I can read the same page three times, and I don't—but if I listen—and I've even done this, and David, this may be an anathema to you—I've had the computer read it to me.

24:13

I can't tell you how many times when I was preparing an audiobook, I wished I could have it read to me, and then I realized, oh wait, that's why I'm recording it, so somebody can have it read to them.

24:23

And sometimes, depending on the speed of the narrator or the density of the material, you can slow it down or speed it up.

24:32

You know, you can make it flex for whatever works, but that really works for me, reading through the years often.

24:39

Yeah, my wife's— Go ahead, Keith.

24:42

I was going to say, my wife is a podcast junkie, and she listens to them on three, like three speed.

24:48

She's doing the dishes, and then she's listening to Allie Bestucky or to Doug Wilson's wife or somebody, and it's—and it's—it's just—I'm like, how are you getting anything? She goes, oh, I can do three podcasts over making dinner.

25:01

I'm like, okay, that's it, whatever.

25:04

Yeah, I can tell you that some narrators get a little professionally offended when the speed is changed to, I recorded it at this pace for a particular reason, and I don't care.

25:16

You know, especially— I find your pace perfect.

25:18

I genuinely do.

25:18

Thank you.

25:19

But, you know, if I—if I slowed down because I thought that it would be better understood if I spoke in a more controlled, deliberate way, but that's not working for you, and you want me to talk faster, and you can hear it like this much better than that, it's fine with me, I don't care.

25:33

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

25:36

Well, I'm going to get back to talking about the book, obviously, because that's what I'm hoping to get people interested, getting people ready to get their copy of the book, and I've—the—the—the way that the book is broke down, it's broken down into four acts.

25:50

It is—act one is life plans, act two is life begins, and the—and what's interesting is in the—the life plans is you do deal with the covenant of redemption, which is what is often understood as a, you know, covenant theology view, which is reformed in that perspective.

26:11

So you're looking at God's inter-Trinitarian work there, which is—which is something that I think a lot of people miss.

26:21

When people start talking about salvation, well, I believed, or—and that's when they think salvation began, but salvation, like you say, from everlasting to everlasting.

26:30

So you're looking from God in eternity past, which I actually have trouble with the word eternity past, because in eternity there is no— Yeah, language—language kind of starts to creak under the weight of these amazing concepts, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

26:45

But we have life plans is act one, we have act two is life begins, and that's when you talk about providence, you talk about physical life, conception, and the general call, the inward call, regeneration, repentance, and faith.

26:58

And then we get to life from the cross.

27:01

We talk about Christ, the God who died, the God who satisfied wrath, and I'm—and by the way, the chapter on propitiation, very helpful, very useful.

27:10

I think that is a concept that so many people have not only misunderstood, I find more and more people are rejecting propitiation.

27:23

Did you guys happen to see the monster God debate with Michael Brown and Brian Zahn? I did not.

27:32

Brian Zahn is a charismatic teacher—not charismatic in that he's gifted, I mean, like literally in the charismatic movement.

27:41

And you guys familiar with who Michael Brown is? Michael Brown is a charismatic teacher, but he is—I would say he's one of the more theologically sound guys.

27:53

He's still Arminian.

27:54

Obviously, he's got some issues that I would—personally, I would take great issue with.

28:00

But on things like penal substitutionary atonement, he's a Jewish man who became a Christian, and so he has a strong background in Hebrew.

28:09

And they did a debate, and the title of the debate was the monster God debate, because Brian Zahn, who rejects penal substitutionary atonement, he rejects the concept of propitiation as satisfying the wrath of God.

28:28

He says that makes God into a moral monster, that God has to have his pound of flesh, he has to have his justice placated or satisfied or propitiated.

28:41

And I think Michael Brown did a great job of defending penal substitutionary for anybody who's interested and wants to go listen to that debate.

28:47

As soon as it got into cross-examination, Brian Zahn, the wheels fell off the cart at that point.

28:52

But have you heard that, Will? I mean, have you noticed people who are pushing back against the concept of propitiation and trying to find another view of the atonement? Not really in my immediate circles.

29:05

I was conscious, I grew up in the Anglican Church, Church of England, and still to this day very much, and I was conscious of this growing up in the past, the more liberal elements of that denomination, which probably in, you know, the significant majority, I would think would have problems with propitiation, often because they have problems with a God who is wrathful, and they want just a nice fluffy God who's going to always pat them on the back and say, well done, don't worry about it.

29:40

I think that is the monster God, the one whose character would push us towards a morally anarchic universe.

29:48

That is terrifying.

29:49

I'd much rather have a God with whom right is right, wrong is wrong.

29:53

There is such a thing as justice.

29:55

And then alongside that is also merciful and satisfies that necessary justice himself, self-sacrificially by setting his son.

30:04

That is a much more attractive God for me.

30:08

But to answer your question, yeah, not in my immediate circles, but I was very aware growing up of liberal Anglicans who did not like the idea.

30:17

Yeah, and it saddens me.

30:19

Are you seeing this, David? Are you seeing more people online, I guess, pushing back? Online, not in my church, the church of which I am a member, but certainly I see it in discussion groups for Christians who like the Lord of the Rings, things like that, where you'll get a broad swath of people who identify themselves as Christians but come from a wide range of backgrounds.

30:42

You'll sometimes get into theological discussions like that.

30:45

I couldn't worship a God who does that sort of thing.

30:51

Yeah, there's always a danger of getting into disputes that just aren't going to go anywhere.

30:57

But I think it's helpful to try and talk about or remind people that God, the potter, can make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor.

31:08

Paul makes that very clear.

31:12

And who are you, oh man, to tell God what he can do? There's that.

31:19

You know, to me, there's an extraordinary, unrealized egotism in saying that we can dictate to God who or how he is holy.

31:36

Yeah, yeah.

31:37

And Keith, that's a great point, David.

31:39

I would also say that while I don't encounter people actively against propitiation in my circles, what I do encounter a lot of is people who have maybe been Christians for many years, are quite mature in some ways, know their Bibles, and yet wouldn't be able to define it, wouldn't be comfortable discussing it.

31:58

You know, this book wants to make accessible some of these doctrines.

32:02

We don't need to be intellectually intimidated by them.

32:05

God didn't give them to us just for the ivory tower theologians to have fun with.

32:09

And I guess I'm passionate about things like propitiation, not because they're being opposed, although in some cases they are being opposed, but also just to say to everyone, hey, relax, enjoy, celebrate, be confident and comfortable talking about this.

32:26

It's not rocket science.

32:28

And it is true.

32:28

And God didn't give it to us idly.

32:31

So almost an anti-intellectualism and a phobia of deep, rich theology in the popular church, I guess, is one push for me to say, hey, let's just get into the weeds with this good stuff like propitiation.

32:48

Yeah, and right there, I mean, you're absolutely talking my language.

32:51

Our church, the unofficial motto of our church, and of course, Dr.

32:57

James White uses this all the time, and that's the motto of Theology Matters.

33:01

And so we want our people to not be afraid to hear and use theological words.

33:09

And the word propitiation, I mean, it's a biblical word, but it's also a theological word.

33:14

It's rich, it's deep, it's powerful.

33:16

And when people are sometimes visiting our church from other churches and they have that wide-eyed sort of deer-in-a-headlight look, because it's like, okay, you guys are talking about stuff that is, you know, this is heavy.

33:34

And I think what you just said, the anti-intellectualism of the modern church, and I actually, several years ago, it was a self-published booklet on the subject of the Trinity, just to give the history of the doctrine of the Trinity and what we mean when we say the doctrine of the Trinity.

33:55

And the very first thing I said in the book was, it surprises me that I don't even hear people talking about the Trinity anymore, because they've determined, we can't know what it is, therefore we don't need to try to have the conversation.

34:10

And that's what people just, you know, and that's where you end up with modalism and Sabellianism and all of these other views, because people have just given up the idea that we can even have that conversation.

34:21

And just as good theology really does cash out into people's lives, their everyday lives in very real, practical ways, so bad theology does that too.

34:32

And you might think Sabellianism, modalism, you know, how could that possibly hurt me? It's so random and abstract.

34:39

And well, you know, heresy does hurt people, just as truth helps people.

34:45

So yeah, amen.

34:47

Absolutely.

34:47

I think we always have to be careful when we want to start softening uncomfortable doctrines without necessarily rejecting them.

34:57

If we're softening them, why do we feel the need to soften them? I saw recently somebody had requested to change the lyrics of In Christ Alone, which is a hymn we sing in our church, where on that cross where Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied.

35:12

And somebody didn't like that and apparently had formally requested to record a different version of that song.

35:17

And I understand that the hymn writer said no, which I think they're right to do that, in my opinion.

35:24

If you feel the need to get rid of that, why? And I was discussing this with somebody who was saying, well, you know, what they wanted to replace it with something that just emphasized God's love more.

35:33

And it means the same thing.

35:35

Does it? That's an awesome definition of propitiation.

35:42

The wrath of God is satisfied.

35:44

Right.

35:45

Why do you need to change it then if it means the same thing? Yeah, yeah.

35:50

I think in all of these things, it's possible to have less tension than the Bible has and try and screw things up too tightly and make implications that aren't explicit in Scripture.

36:06

But it's also possible to have more tension than the Bible has.

36:10

And I really, for everything we've just said, I also do not want to put off people who maybe don't have college education, never read books, maybe are very dyslexic.

36:24

I've got kids who have special needs, including dyslexia, other things as well.

36:29

ADHD.

36:30

We're about to plant a church and I would love so much for people with disabilities and the homeless people just to fill up this church.

36:38

We're gearing it to try and be extra specially accessible to those people as well as other profiles of people.

36:46

And so, yeah.

36:48

And this whole conversation, I also don't want to think, oh, well, that guy's church or that guy's writing.

36:54

That's not for me.

36:55

Like, who was it who said the Bible really is accessible for a toddler to paddle in and yet deep enough for an elephant to swim in? Yeah, absolutely.

37:07

I am just reminded of several years ago, there was a man in our church and his daughter was dating a boy and the boy had, I don't know if it was Eastern Orthodox or what, but he had had a different upbringing as far as his Christian faith.

37:31

And the boy had said to the father, you know, because he's dating the daughter, so they were having conversations.

37:38

And the boy said to the father, I don't believe in penal substitutionary atonement.

37:44

That's a 12th century heresy and it's not something the church believed for a thousand years and they never believed in penal substitution.

37:53

They didn't believe in this idea of propitiation and it's just wrong.

37:56

And I remember having dinner with just me and the father and we were having dinner and he brought up that conversation.

38:03

And I said, so what are you going to do about this? Are you going to try to talk to this young man? Are you going to try to help him? How are you going to handle this? And he said, it's not a big deal.

38:17

And I was floored.

38:18

I said, what do you mean it's not a big deal? This is the gospel.

38:20

This is God's wrath being satisfied for our sin.

38:24

This is a big deal.

38:26

This is not just like, oh, he's got a different view of speaking in tongues, which is still important, but at least that is truly secondary to the gospel.

38:36

This is a big deal.

38:39

And like you said, some people don't understand it.

38:41

Some people don't like the intellectualism or the big words, but there are people, and again, I keep going back to this, who are just flat out denying it.

38:49

God did not have to be satisfied in his wrath.

38:53

And I'm like, oh, so disgusting.

38:56

Penal substitutionary atonement, PSA, I think is the heart of the heart.

39:01

If the atonement and the cross is the heart of the gospel, PSA is the heart of the heart.

39:06

And like you also said, though, it may be that people don't always have the words.

39:13

I want my church to fill up with people who are amazing theologians who don't even know it because they're not bandying about terms like infralapsarianism.

39:22

But although they don't know it and wouldn't use certain words, it's still possible for anyone to gradually over time, you know, with the help of the Spirit, by God's grace, develop really strong, deep, wonderful theology that's going to give them joy and peace and help them have good lives.

39:39

Yeah, absolutely.

39:41

Absolutely.

39:42

So act four of the book is the Christian life, and it talks about the God who grows the progressive progressive sanctification and goes into the God who keeps, which is perseverance.

39:56

And these are all, I think, it's all practical.

40:00

I don't want to say that anything is not practical, but these are the things beginning in day 19, which again, I haven't gone there yet, but just looking over the book, it looks like these are the areas where it's really going to get into what it means to live out the Christian life and to live out this thing that God has done in us.

40:18

God is the one who's building the biography, but we are living it out day by day, going through this process of sanctification.

40:28

And it says that, you know, it talks about ministry, talks about suffering, which totally, we've recently seen some suffering in our own church.

40:39

We had one of our elders, his son passed away tragically.

40:43

This has just been a terrible time.

40:44

So these are real things that people are going through, people are dealing with.

40:50

And so again, anyone who thinks that this is just ivory tower theological, you know, how many angels can dance on head of a pin, that's not what this is.

41:00

This is real life stuff, and this is stuff that is hopefully going to be a blessing.

41:07

I'm sure it will be a blessing to those who read it and applying it to the practical life.

41:15

So, and then we have act five, which is the life to come.

41:19

So there's act one is life plans.

41:21

Act two is life begins.

41:22

Act three is life from the cross.

41:24

Act four is the Christian life.

41:26

And then the life to come, which is, you know, looking forward to the eschaton, looking forward to the end and God bringing judgment.

41:37

I'm going to put you on the spot.

41:38

Are you a pre-post or a mill? Are you? Yeah, yeah.

41:45

Almost all British conservative evangelicals are a male.

41:50

And that's why I grew up.

41:53

That's awesome.

41:54

I heard in a recent podcast episode, I've been enjoying a podcast that you are as like, an American reformed Baptist is a male.

42:05

I need a t-shirt.

42:07

I'm thankful that.

42:08

Okay.

42:09

So all my British brethren who are evangelical and conservative are a mill.

42:14

All right, David, it's two out of three.

42:17

Where are you at brother? I'm going to politely decline to answer.

42:23

Okay.

42:24

That's okay.

42:25

That's okay.

42:26

It's a, you know, that's, that's one of those topics when we talk about primary issues, secondary issues, and then Adi offer those things, which are truly tertiary.

42:34

And that's one of those things that we, obviously, even people within my own church, I've served with elders in our church who were dispensational pre-millennial, and yet we were still able to serve together.

42:48

There were a few times where that came up, but as far as the proclamation of the gospel, we were still able to proclaim the same gospel together.

42:58

Before we open the can of worms and go down this rabbit hole too far.

43:03

I think there aren't massive differences in implications for like ministry and the Christian life now between pre-mill and AML.

43:12

I think post-mill does start to cause quite significant differences in well, what are our priorities going to be as a church, you know, for the budget with our lives, our expectations.

43:23

Bro, I'm just super impressed.

43:25

You haven't yet made the pan mill joke.

43:28

Oh, yeah.

43:31

Well, it's out there.

43:32

Trust me.

43:33

It's all going to pan out in the end.

43:36

Now, because I haven't gotten this far in the book, and I do apologize to the audience for having not gone through it.

43:41

Like I said, we only started talking about this, what, 10 days ago, and I was sick for a little while.

43:48

But do you get into that at all in this? I don't see it on the outline here.

43:53

It's a book to strengthen and encourage believers.

43:56

And I write with a preacher's heart.

44:00

So yeah, no, no, we're driving down just the main roads and applying the main basic truths that the vast majority of, you know, biblical Christians would agree on.

44:12

Absolutely.

44:13

Absolutely.

44:14

Now, you said you wrote this about a year ago.

44:16

Am I hearing that correctly? Yeah.

44:19

How long of amount of time did it take you to actually put all of this, because this is a massive work as far as you're dealing with a ton of different subjects.

44:28

It's not like you just did one book on sanctification, or one book on justification.

44:31

You've got, you know, a hefty chapter on each of these subjects, 30 chapters.

44:36

How long did it take you to put everything together? And does this, you know, take? The answer is a really long time, but not because of what you've just said.

44:45

Most of the contents was already swilling around in my head and my heart.

44:50

And the reason I wrote the book is that I have found the storyline from eternity past to eternity future, incredibly pastorally powerful as a pastor to help my people.

45:01

So I was just writing with about something I'm already passionate about.

45:06

And I'm naturally a big picture guy anyway.

45:08

The reason it took so long is that I wrote it in basically like three minute increments.

45:14

Our house is crazy.

45:15

We've got two crazy boys who I love to bits.

45:17

But, you know, one of them has multiple diagnosed special needs.

45:23

And the other is just a plain handful, full gas and no rudder.

45:29

They're awesome.

45:30

But I want to be hands on as a dad and a husband and support my wife and trying to pastor a church.

45:38

And so I just I try to snuck in the writing where I could in the crevices and margins of the day.

45:47

So it took a long time.

45:49

Trenton Larkin Absolutely.

45:50

And that's that's that's awesome to hear that you're a dad of you said two boys, right? Dr.

45:56

Richard Wilson Yeah, it feels like about seven, but it's not.

45:58

Trenton Larkin Well, we have our we were we have our sixth is on the way.

46:02

Our sixth baby and my wife is pregnant right now.

46:05

And Lord willing, he'll be here in a month.

46:08

And I have a daughter, my nine year old daughter has autism.

46:10

So I can empathize with the struggles there and thankful for her every day.

46:17

She's a blessing.

46:18

Dr.

46:19

Richard Wilson My oldest son has autism too.

46:21

Trenton Larkin Yeah.

46:21

And I get the idea that the all gas and no rudder.

46:25

I that's that's going to be my new favorite phrase for my kids because I love I get exactly what you're talking about.

46:31

Dr.

46:31

Richard Wilson I was having to and also it was written throughout lockdown.

46:35

And that's another main reason why it had to be in three minute increments.

46:38

I was working from home.

46:39

So I had to stop and break up fights every few minutes or help my wife or do something else or supervise a kid reading homeschool, you know.

46:49

But throughout, I was really comforted by the truth that some of the great theological works in church history of which I'm not for a second claiming this is one you would think, you know, Calvin's Institutes and Luther's commentaries and those things were written in air conditioned libraries with unlimited resources, complete physical safety, you know, great provision of different needs, good, you know, spiritual encouragement.

47:16

All of the greatest works were written with the exact opposite while people on the run with lack of references, you know, reference resources.

47:25

They were stressed and ill and exhausted and, you know, and God's strength is often at its is always at its greatest in human weakness.

47:36

So I remember I would like to have written it just sitting in a seminary library without having to worry about anything else.

47:43

I was super distracted.

47:45

But if God did good stuff despite that, then I'm happy.

47:51

John Bunyan was writing from a prison cell.

47:54

Yeah, yeah.

47:56

And many stories like that.

47:59

Well, David, I want to ask you to about the on the audio side of it, because this is again, audio books are of great interest to me, not only because I consume them, but because I think there's value in many ways.

48:13

I have, like I said, I did my little booklet on the Trinity.

48:15

It's only, you know, 90, 100 pages or something.

48:17

But I did I recorded it as audio myself just because I wanted to make it accessible to people who are driving their cars or whatever people in our church.

48:26

And we just put it up for free and MP3 on the on the website.

48:31

I notice your is that your studio behind you? Your sound? Yes.

48:34

Baffles.

48:35

So you just do it right at home? Yes.

48:38

Okay.

48:38

Yeah.

48:39

My two kids are downstairs right now being unusually quiet because I asked them to and they're being very good about it.

48:46

Yeah.

48:47

Well, how long does it take to record? I mean, the book itself, I think it's what, four, four hours and some change.

48:54

So how long does that take? I did it over the course of several weeks, and I don't recall exactly how many.

49:00

It's summer vacation.

49:02

The kids are home when they're at school.

49:03

I have a little more flexibility.

49:06

This is a, I can't say soundproof, a sound reducing booth.

49:13

So, you know, if the neighbor right next door is mowing the lawn, I have to stop.

49:19

It's not quite that good, but it will attenuate most sounds well enough that for this purpose, I can do it here at home, which is great.

49:27

So, yeah, I think it was over the course of maybe like three weeks this summer when I recorded a bit here and a bit there as, as I could for one finished hour, I might spend three or four hours in the booth because every time I realized I mispronounced a word wrong, I stumbled over a line.

49:47

I have to go back and pick up where I was and start over again.

49:52

And then, you know, there's an editing process to check it and clean it up and all that afterwards as well.

49:57

Now, do you, do you self edit as you go and then you give it to them to edit it again, or do you just record whatever? Yeah, I do.

50:05

It's called punch and roll recording, which means when you notice an error, you stop, move the record head back to the point where it's convenient, like the start of the last sentence, and then punch in that terminology comes from back when it was physical tape being used, but you punch in there and start recording from there.

50:22

So I'm mostly self editing as I go.

50:25

And then it's just in terms of any mistakes that I made that are caught later, then I have to go back and rerecord pickups inserts to, to go over top of where I made the mistake.

50:37

Nice, nice, nice.

50:39

And when it comes to your, when you're thinking about the recording of this book or whatever, did the publisher contact you? Did you, did you say, Hey, I see this book.

50:48

I like it.

50:49

I want to be a part of this.

50:50

How do you, how do you get involved in that? I mean, is this, is this your full-time job? It is my full-time job.

50:56

I've been developing it as a full-time job.

50:58

I've had a few other jobs over the years, but I've been gradually trying to build this.

51:03

Sometimes I reach out to an author, a number of the authors that I've recorded books for they're self-published, independently published, or a very small publisher, and I can work with them directly.

51:14

And so I have, in some cases reached out to them.

51:17

It's, you know, there's a certain amount of, you have to go out, go out there and get out there and do a certain degree of self-promotion, which I'm not always comfortable with, but talk about how awesome I am in order to record their book.

51:30

In this particular case, though, Will had, I think, listened to another book I recorded.

51:36

And I think he knew one of the authors I'd worked with.

51:40

So when he was interested in having an audio book of his book, Will actually reached out to me, and then together we contacted his publisher and arranged with the publisher for me to record the book.

51:52

Nice.

51:52

Nice.

51:52

That was going to be my next question is, did Will reach out to you? Did you reach out to him? But it seems like it's a pretty good match.

51:58

And you guys came together and were able to produce a fine product to benefit the church.

52:03

So that's great.

52:05

Well, Will, I want to begin, as we begin to draw to a close, we're getting close to the hour now, and I want to begin to draw us up.

52:11

I want to ask you this question.

52:13

As I'm thinking about the book, I'm thinking about the Ordo Salutis, I'm thinking about the Every Believer's biography.

52:22

I know that this is an unfair question in the sense that it's 30 days and 30 individual ideas, but if there was one big takeaway that when someone's finished, when someone has finished this 30-day journey, that you hope that they take away and apply in the future as they walk with Christ, what's the one thing that you would say, yeah, this is what I hope they take away from all of this? That is such an unfair question.

52:53

I think if you visualize the chapters of the book as a timeline with 30 notches, and there was an arrow somewhere saying you are here, like on a map, I think it would probably be around the sort of perseverance slash suffering slash, yeah, probably perseverance.

53:14

So I'd want people to finish the book, realize that, okay, I'm in the perseverance number, whatever it is, 25 or something.

53:22

Look back and, okay, God is faithful.

53:24

All the way from eternity past, I can see he's led me this far.

53:28

Look forward and think, okay, it's going to be worth it.

53:31

He is sovereign.

53:31

He's going to get me there.

53:32

All the suffering and sacrifices, and it's going to be worth it.

53:36

New creation.

53:38

So I think the take-home is just keep going.

53:40

Keep going.

53:42

Persevere.

53:43

Amen.

53:44

Amen.

53:44

I think that's a thing that people often miss about Calvinism and Reformed theology is they will say, oh, if you believe in that, then you just believe that God chooses, picks and chooses who he wants and no matter what.

53:58

But no, if we believe that God is sovereign in the calling and the regeneration, then God's also sovereign in bringing us to the end.

54:08

He's sovereign in bringing us through this life of faith and walking us through our times of where we have to persevere through doubt, where we have to persevere through depression, where we have to persevere through loss and times of grief.

54:25

And that's a wonderful thought just to think this is where we are and God is still working.

54:31

It's from everlasting to everlasting.

54:34

You are here.

54:35

I like that.

54:36

Maybe make it like a map.

54:37

Say, you are here.

54:38

That was nearly one of the titles.

54:40

That was one of the potential titles for the book or sub-taglines or something.

54:46

But yeah, you are here.

54:48

Look back, be encouraged.

54:50

Look forward, be encouraged.

54:51

Therefore, keep going.

54:53

Yeah.

54:53

Amen.

54:54

Well, David, as you were audio recording the book, was there something that you took away that you would say to somebody now and say, hey, this is why I would encourage you to read this book or to listen to it? I think it just did a great job of laying out a really deep theology in an accessible way.

55:15

And, you know, I can say that about other authors as well.

55:17

I wouldn't say it's exclusive to Wills.

55:19

It's Benjamin Vrbicek, who, if I remember correctly, Wills, he's the one who referred to me, right? Okay.

55:27

Has written some great devotional material that I found also was very helpful in that way.

55:33

But I really appreciate authors who will take something deep and rich and express it in a more easy to read way.

55:42

I just recorded a book by Gerhardus Voss, a 20th century theologian, wonderful theologian a little more work to get into what he's saying and understand where he's going with it.

55:54

And partially because he's writing more for like a seminary audience.

55:58

You know, Wills' book is written for more of the layman audience, even though it's talking about some very deep, rich topics.

56:05

And I think it just does a great job of making them very accessible, very understandable.

56:10

He uses analogies that are very simple and clear, easy to understand, standing in a stream, you know, things that anyone can understand and relate to.

56:20

And I thought it was just written in a way that's really easy to understand.

56:24

And I would just chip in on that.

56:27

Dear reader, please do not be put off if you find days one and two a little hard going.

56:33

I think I sort of found my stride.

56:35

I was more the kind of seminary geek for the first couple of days and then sort of, you know, got into it more, making it more accessible.

56:43

So don't be put off at the very start.

56:46

So you're saying skip to chapter three? Well, I think it was all wonderful.

56:52

And I will say this, Will, the mark of a good teacher is someone who can take something that is incredibly difficult and make it accessible to a larger audience.

57:04

So I think that you're a wonderful teacher.

57:06

I'm sure your church is blessed to have you as a pastor.

57:10

And I want to thank you for the book.

57:12

I want to thank you for being on the show today and being a blessing to the church and to me.

57:18

Thank you.

57:19

Thanks for the encouragement, brother.

57:21

Yes, absolutely.

57:22

And David, thank you for setting this up and being the voice of From Everlasting to Everlasting.

57:27

I appreciate you and being on the program as well.

57:30

Thank you.

57:33

And again, to the audience, I want to thank you all for being with us today and listening to this conversation between me and Will and David about the book From Everlasting to Everlasting, Every Believer's Biography.

57:44

And I want to remind you that if you would like to get a copy of the book, we have two ways that you can be blessed with a free copy.

57:52

If you go to our YouTube page and you go onto this video and leave a comment, then the first five people who leave a comment are going to receive a coupon code for a free audio book of From Everlasting to Everlasting.

58:11

And if you are part of Conversations with a Calvinist Facebook page and you go onto our Facebook page and leave a comment there, the first five people there are going to receive a hard copy from Will.

58:24

And so I want to encourage you to do that.

58:27

I encourage you to leave a comment that is something that you've learned today or maybe something that a question that you have.

58:35

And if you'd like to have either of these gentlemen on again, please tell me that.

58:38

Tell me something you'd like for us to talk about.

58:40

I'd love to dig deeper, would love to invite them back on the program, and hopefully they'd be willing to do that.

58:46

And again, I want to encourage you if you do have questions for an upcoming program, please send them to me at calvinistpodcast at gmail.com.

58:54

You can find older episodes of our show at calvinistpodcast.com.

58:59

And as always, we have special things that are going on on our YouTube channel right now because we're trying to grow our audience there and to reach more people.

59:07

So if you could go there, like and subscribe, that would be a huge help to me and to what we're doing here at the Ministry of Conversations with a Calvinist.

59:15

Thank you for listening to Conversations with a Calvinist.

59:18

My name is Keith Foskey, and I've been your Calvinist.

59:21

May God bless you.