AD and Joshua Sommer Discuss Rosaria Butterfield Controversy

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All right, I wanted to just record this video, what you're watching right this moment, I recorded on the morning of December 17.

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The video you're about to watch I recorded last week with Josh summer, regarding the, at least in part the the

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Rosario Butterfield controversy. I wanted to add this to the beginning because I just I've been thinking about this topic in a lot of other contexts.

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And I wanted to bring it to to this context as well, because I think it applies very much.

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Yesterday, I did a video regarding sort of like, there's, there's got to be a third category for people like it can't, like our only two choices can't be, you know, strong teacher solid in every way, on the one hand, and on the other hand, dangerous wolf who's intentionally trying to hurt people.

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There's got to be something in the middle there. And, and, you know, I don't think that, that I've ever had a had a video on YouTube, you know, myself, where I wasn't intentionally attempting to, to, to commit to really doing everything

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I can to not falling into that trap where it's either, you know, you're a heretic, or you're, you know, a

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Christian kind of thing. And and that's kind of where I land here with this with this video, as well.

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I think that that people that are saying that there is no legitimate criticism of Rosario Butterfield's positions on homosexuality and same sex attraction and hospitality and these things.

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Someone who says there are no legitimate criticisms is clearly incorrect. There are some things that are said that you know, at least at the very least, can we can we admit that they make you go?

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Hmm? You know what I mean? Even if you even if you think you have the context better than I do, or Josh or someone else does, you can you can see maybe she's not really saying what it sounds like she's saying, you can at least be honest enough to say, well,

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I can see why someone might be confused. And that's, you know, for for an author for a writer. Ideally, you wouldn't confuse your audience.

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Now this this this criticism can be levied on almost anybody, obviously. So, you know,

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I'm not saying that this is necessarily all her fault. But there is, you know, people that have criticisms of what she's written and said in video.

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I think that there's definitely points to be made. Let's put it that way. There's points to be made.

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There are some concerning statements. There's just no question about it. On the flip side, though, and this is this is what

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I'm really I've been committed to this on my YouTube channel for forever. You know what

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I mean? On the flip side, though, you know, I don't know that that that I want to go down that road where it's like, well, if I'm concerned with what she says about, you know, pronoun hospitality, well, then that must mean that she's, you know, a secret, you know, heretic and is intentionally trying to drive people away from the truth and to her and all of these things.

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I mean, that's just the reality. I don't I don't see that as a necessity. And if you do, I've said this on my

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YouTube channel forever as well. You don't draw the same lines that I draw you don't you don't draw the same the same battle lines that I draw.

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I have no beef with you. I have no beef with you at all. I you know, I there are people that I think are believers.

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I trust their professing of faith that a lot of other people don't. And I get that. I get that.

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And there are people that I likely there are people that I think are unbelievers that other people don't and I get that as well.

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I mean, I'm not, you know, listen, not everyone has to draw the same battle lines as me. Not everyone has to do things the same way

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I do. The point is, though, and I hope you see this in this video, Josh and I talked about some of the issues regarding the controversy.

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The point is, though, that look, there's no sacred cows here. I've said this in the last couple weeks, a lot of this is all very providential.

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There's no sacred cows here. But also, we can have some charity with people with which we disagree.

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Anyway, I hope this is helpful. Enjoy. Alright, so I wanted to bring in Josh Sommer.

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If you if you don't know his YouTube channel, you should definitely subscribe to it. He has a lot of content about social justice, a lot of content about just theology in general, and he made a video about Rosario Butterfield that I thought was really helpful.

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I'll link to it in the description of my video on my YouTube channel, but you should definitely check it out and that made me want to bring him on because talking about Rosario Butterfield, which is what we're going to do today, this whole area of gay

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Christianity and same sex attraction. I mention it often, but it's really not my area. So I wanted to bring in a real expert.

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Just kidding. I don't think this is your primary area either, but as a pastor, you don't get to necessarily pick and choose topics like I do.

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You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to do that and so, you know, just Josh, if you want to introduce yourself, you know who you are and where that people can find you, that'd probably be good.

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Yeah, for sure. I have a website. It's joshsommer .org, a real original and a

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YouTube channel associated with that. That's that's kind of my personal side of things.

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I try not to act like I'm representing my congregation in any of that, of course, with matters of orthodoxy and things, we'd all be on the same page, but I don't want to associate my personal blog and things like that with being representational of the whole church.

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The church has a website and I write on there as well. That is victorybaptistkc .org

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and then, yeah, I have been pastor over there for,

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I don't know, since April this year and so relatively new there and started preaching for them, however, in January and so it's been a blessing for my wife and I to be with that congregation.

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It's been a great experience so far and yeah, so what

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I do kind of on my personal side of things and even at the church, you know, when these things come up and, you know, they arise in the text or it's related.

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I'll speak on these things as well to the congregation, you know, just talking about, you know, what does

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Scripture say? Taking it back to Scripture, one of my main axioms and conversely, one of my main complaints is

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Scripture is sufficient. The complaint side of that is that we're not doing theology or talking about a lot of issues that's swirling around today as if Scripture is sufficient and so what

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I wanted to do with the website and the YouTube channel is really just come at some of these issues from a biblical perspective and not try to nuance things to death, you know.

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The Bible's very clear on things. In fact, I was just telling my dad this morning, you know, he had just read 1

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Corinthians 7 and he said, wow, that's a little lax for the Bible because that's where Paul talks about not depriving one another for too long and to come together as a married, you know, for a married couple to come together, not deprive one another from intimacy for too long and I said,

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Dad, what you're going to find out is that the Bible's real. The Bible's real and it's not, you know, we try to sugarcoat a lot of things and anyways, what

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I want to do writing and making videos is to respond to some of these issues, hopefully clearly just as God has already responded to them in his words.

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So let me ask you this, Josh. Have you read the Pulpit and Pen article called Rosaria Butterfield Promotes Sam Albury's Theology?

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Catholic priest who says God is gay and a cultic scholar. Have you read it? I think I read some of it.

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I didn't read the entire thing. You do, of course, understand you're not supposed to be reading this website.

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Right, right. They have been officially put on the list of anathematized organizations, online organizations.

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They've been taken to what was it called? Facebook Purgatory or Facebook, whatever it is.

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Yeah. Okay, cool. So you've read part of it and you're familiar with this controversy regarding Rosaria Butterfield's opinions and ideas about homosexuality and same -sex attraction and things like that.

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Okay, cool. So anyway, I read the article because I do from time to time read Pulpit and Pen despite many warnings against it.

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Actually, you know, I've I have a theory that the more people warn against it, the more people will want to read it. But anyway,

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I was interested in this because I, you know, I knew about Rosaria Butterfield and all that kind of stuff and the title is, you know, very clickbaity.

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That's the whole point of that. Right, right. And so I'm reading this article and you know,

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I get to a paragraph two and this is where the kind of the pushback on this article really starts right.

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So it says this, it says, the organizations and leaders that have pushed this paradigm changing movement for the past five years are the

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Gospel Coalition, ERLC, Russell Moore, Living Out, Sam Albury, and SBC's JD Greer, all of which

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Rosaria Butterfield has partnered up with consistently as an integral spokesperson and writer from the movement's beginning up until today.

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Alright, so where I first started catching wind of the controversy here is

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I saw a post from James White about this and how he was going to respond to this article and one of his first sort of criticisms about it was that it was an example of associationalism where what you do essentially is that you say that a certain person is constantly, you know, doing conferences or working with or partnering up with all of these people or organizations that are suspect.

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Yeah. Therefore, the person is suspect. That's kind of the presentation of how it goes.

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Alright. Anyway, so that's sort of the idea and you know, on the one hand,

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I can sort of see that criticism being like, well, that's not really fair. You can't really do that to people and say, well, if they're suspect, then you're suspect for teaming up with them.

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But is there anything to that? I mean, you know, if a person is being platformed by all these organizations that are kind of compromised, is there anything to be said about some suspicion?

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What do you think? Well, let's, I think what we should do is we should take that kind of rubric, that standard, and put it on them.

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So like, for example, if Apologia Church, Apologia Church, I know for a fact, there are some organizations that Apologia would not partner with and even if they're organizations that, you know, shared the same goals and maybe some of the same missions or whatever, they would not partner with them.

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And the reason being is, you know, you don't want to make the organization you're partnering with, you don't want to give the impression that you're endorsing everything that they stand for.

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You don't even want to give the appearance of that. And you also don't want to give your audience the idea that you are compromising in one area or another.

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And so I think that every church or parachurch organization or any ministry out there thinks along those lines when that issue arises, you know, should we do work with these people or those people, precisely because they are concerned about how that might look to other people.

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So I think they would even recognize the reality that if they were to partner with certain organizations, the perception might come off as it might be negative.

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There may be some blowback. And so then to let's zoom out a little bit and have someone like Dr.

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James White accuse other people, accuse that audience that they're concerned about in the first place, right?

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We don't want to come off to these people like we are doing XYZ. He's accusing them now of doing the very thing that every church or every organization would want to avoid in the first place.

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So they're just all the people are doing, all people like J .D. Hall and others are doing, even perhaps you and I in different capacities are connecting dots.

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Sure. And and also, you know, you have the idea in scripture of, you know, you don't link arms with sin and with entities or organizations that are doing sin.

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And I think I heard, I don't know if it was on a, I think it might have been a dividing line, a recent dividing line in the last two, one of the last two maybe, where James White kind of like said, well, you know, you're disagreeing with someone else and you're casting them as someone who's a compromiser because they're partnering with people that do things a little bit different than you.

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And I don't have the direct quotation, but I think that was one of his concerns is, yeah, these people are approaching some of these issues differently.

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That doesn't mean they're bad news. And, you know,

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I don't think we have to say that someone's bad news to say that someone something that they're doing is seriously problematic.

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Right. And kind of talk them off the cliff, so to speak. And on that note, just if I could add, you know,

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I was listening to Matt Marino. He's a Reformed Presbyterian pastor who does a lot of good stuff on theology proper and talks a lot about apologetics.

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He's on Sermon Audio. And he's talking about the idea of orthodoxy and how orthodoxy and, you know, to say that you are orthodox and to point out someone else's error, that is something that is looked down upon today.

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It's something that's looked at as divisive, as uncharitable. And he's like, but from the perspective of church history and the reason there is this concept of orthodoxy is precisely because when you when you call out someone's error, it's not as if you're trying to push them out the window to their death.

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You're trying to pull them back into the room. Right. So the whole idea behind polemics, behind, you know, responding to, you know, someone like Rosaria Butterfield or Sam Albury or whoever is the idea that's like, okay,

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I don't know your heart. Let's just take that conversation. Let's just and throw it away. I know you're professing

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Christian. And so therefore, what I'm going to do is because you're professing Christian, I'm going to assume you're a

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Christian and I'm going to want to talk you off that ledge and bring you back into the room with me. Sure. Instead of push you out the window or let you walk out the window on your own.

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Yeah. Right. In the case of doctrinal suicide. So yeah, you know, that's one of the things I really appreciate about your video as well as, you know, you said, look, you know,

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I wouldn't recommend her writings or speakings on this issue and it's that's there's nothing wrong with saying that like it's like you.

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I think you use the example of you wouldn't recommend wing systematic theology like there's going to be some good stuff in there.

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If you read it, there's no like you're not saying that it's just all garbage, right? There's just better. There's better stuff.

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You know what I mean? Yeah. And if there's better stuff, you know, thinking along pastoral lines like yeah,

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I don't want to waste my congregation's time by giving them something subpar what

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I see to be subpar when I could give him the creme de la creme. You know what I mean? Like I mean from a pastoral perspective, that's just that should just be obvious.

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I think here's something that I'll say and I think based on what you said, you might agree, but you can if you don't, you can certainly contradict me.

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But so the fact that that let's just assume for a second that the gospel coalition, the

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ERLC living out, you know, JD Greer, all the people that are listed in this article, they really are pushing something regarding same sex attraction.

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That's that's dangerous. They're pushing an idea ideology and and some opinions that are very dangerous and unchristian.

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Let's just assume for a second that's the case. The fact that they do platform

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Mrs. Butterfield doesn't necessarily mean that what she's saying is wrong, but I would say that it would be something that would potentially warrant extra scrutiny or or or or more careful critiques and I don't think that there's anything wrong with that and it's like there's no sacred cows here and would you agree like do those associations maybe maybe warrant a little extra care and and and that kind of thing?

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Yeah, I I think so well and I think it's a case by case basis because I just had a buddy, for example, write an academic article for which is the gospel coalition's academic kind of wing of things and and so but he's by no means a

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TGC, right? Sure. So it was a place. It was a place to publish the article so you know that that doesn't concern me at all but but the level at which

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Butterfield is is being exalted to in terms of her promotion and and and her you know speaking at all these events and not only that not only that let's say she was invited to the gospel coalition to speak on the doctrine of God or the doctrine of repentance and she was solid and she went there and just sure and just and just blasted everybody with the truth of God's word.

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Okay. That's one thing but but the fact that she's not only partnered with the gospel coalition, but that she's speaking on this issue of same sex attraction, which

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I don't think should even be an issue. I I my mind is blown over the last 3 years.

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I think this is totally changed and and and the fact that you know she's what what really put me over the over the edge with with with Butterfield was you know she's encouraging encouraging

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Christians to go and learn from this community. Let me let me go ahead.

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Go right into it because that was that was an interesting part of your video as well. Yeah this community.

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Okay. So I understand she came out of it. She she she was given the gospel

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God opened her eyes. She repented and came out of her of her lifestyle of her previous lifestyle right and began going to war with her sin.

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I mean I I have no reason to to doubt that of Butterfield and I've never questioned her her faith or anything like that.

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Okay, but I have experience too with that community, not in the sense that I was ever part of it.

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Sure, but we we are really good friends with or or have been really good friends with AA lobbyist who lives in California.

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He used to make trips every 2 weeks to DC to walk the halls as they say and he was the president of I don't believe it's around anymore.

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It's the traditional values coalition. So he would go lobby for he was a Christian. He was an a conservative

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Anglican Christian who would go and lobby for conservative values at the

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Capitol. And he used to do

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TV spots. This guy lives right across the street from my wife's parents. Okay. He used to do TV spots on Fox News.

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He was on the Phil Donahue show back in the 80s when the first gay television program was about to hit the airwaves and was debating the stars of that program on the

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Phil Donahue show. It's kind of a spectacle, but he he he's had his house.

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Vandalized you know and keep in mind he's only said things right. He's he's he's saying things he's aggressive right, but but all he's he's not you know he's not taking a pitchfork to anybody right right and maybe proverbial proverbially, but but he's one of these guys who just uses words and make it a little more aggressive than you like, but yeah right right and and and he's had his house spray painted with obscene sure symbols.

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Cars vandalized property vandalized sure. Of course, this was in Southern California.

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Yep and that's how that community plays sure that it's not it's not this.

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It's not this like it's not this like innocent exiled community. That's a bunch of victims and that's

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I don't think people understand that and and so to take it down on a more on a more personal level.

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Let's say I have a couple of gay neighbors here in my neighborhood, which I don't

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I don't think I do, but let's say I did and and they wanted to invite my wife and kids and myself over for dinner or the opportunity was provided to have them over for dinner number one them being together.

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They are just just by virtue of them being together as a couple. They are affirming something that is they're affirming and proclaiming

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Something that is totally contrary to the created order and what

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Butterfield is wanting to say she's she's looking at all this through the lens of hospitality, right?

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That's her. That's her big. That's her shtick is hospitality and what we can learn from the LGBTQ community is that they are very hospitable people.

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They're always they're always getting together in each other's homes and they're they're they're cooks.

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You know they're providing food and they're this is we can learn this as a church. Well.

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First of all, why why are you referring a bunch of Christians to this community that it's very genome sequence is coded around a distortion of this created order of of of the

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DNA of this creation. I mean the very bedrock fundamentally it's twisting of of creation.

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Let me stop you right there because this is something that I I heard Doctor White one time say or not maybe not one time, but multiple times and and at first I didn't understand it, but but I think

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I do now. How how can you even have a community around a perversion around like like what does that even mean like you have a community that's built the the whole foundation of it is is is a rebellion against God is is a perversion of reality like that doesn't even make any sense as a category right right.

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Is that is that basically what you're driving at here? Yeah. Yeah for sure. I mean the community is is a false one right.

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It's a pseudo community if you if you will and you know the idea is is you know we can learn so much from these people.

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It's like well. I'm not going to I would never refer

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Christians to something that might cause them to be led into error right to to learn right right right to learn to learn and that's that's specifically what

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Butterfield is is saying. What can the church learn from this community? The video the video is right here.

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I I have it that the the it's a of course it's a gospel coalition video and it's titled.

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Rosaria Butterfield on the biggest thing that Christians can learn from the

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LGBT community and it turns out that it's hospitality now. You know I'm young.

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I don't have as much life experience as some people, but you know I was

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I'm a veteran. I I know what it's like to be away from family to to to long for that kind of hospitality right to Be estranged from from family and and that kind of you know you're not you're not home on Christmases and Thanksgiving and all that right.

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Yep and I've never received the amount of hospitality. I have in the church anywhere else anywhere else bar none now that that is that's just a personal experience.

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That's not universally statistics on that, But yeah, but III would never never encourage

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Christians at my church or or at any of the other churches. I've been to to go learn from anywhere else because I've received the best hospitality in the church.

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I mean my experience is that we and we have the tools for the best hospitality in the church right.

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The the LGBT community does not they don't have those tools. They don't have the tools for the hospitality.

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Yeah. I and like again, I don't wanna be too much of a fundy here, but which we might talk about in a little bit, but yeah, we should we should but I guess you know it's it's very.

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It's very it's hard for me to understand like let's just say like you like your example, the neighbors that that your imaginary, you know neighbors that invite you for dinner or whatever it is right like.

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If you break down objectively, you take out sort of the subjective feelings of the of the situation and you and you really kind of pull everything back and you and you take the reality of what is happening in that home and I'm not talking about the actual physical sex, but but the whole relationship, you know it's it's not love it.

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So so it's it's it can't be you can't be loving someone while at the same time encouraging them to continue in a perversion in in in a in a in a denial of reality in a rebellion against God like that's not what love is so if they don't even have love for each other in a in a in a in a in a in a fake marriage.

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Yeah. How how are how are we supposed to learn about what love is in terms of hospitality outside of that like you would think that if they can't even demonstrate it with each other, how would they demonstrate it with others?

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You see what I'm going with that? Yeah. Yeah. you can't you're you're telling people you're telling people to look at to look at that to you're referring people to the statue or the painting when they could be referred to the real thing right.

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Sure. Yeah. you're you're you there's there's an outward display of affection in almost every homosexual relationship.

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There's always an outward display of affection. There's outward displays of affection and and two 16 year old kids that think they love each other when they don't sure there's always going to be outward displays of affection or or or or gang members that you know they they they rob banks and stuff and they sell drugs or whatever it is like right.

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There's a brotherhood sort of there in a certain degree right, but it's like a brotherhood of of thieves like you know what

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I mean like right right. Yeah and II would rather be wanting to as a pastor be the example of hospitality for my church.

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Sure. So I I think it would be pastorally disastrous for a pastor to say go go and learn from those those that homosexual couple down the road.

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It's as if he's he would be saying there's nothing in my home to learn from go and learn it and how to do it better there.

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It's like what kind of you know what kind of pastor listens to this and says I'm going to go ahead and encourage my people to go check out the

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LGBTQ community for hospitality like right if it does seem preposterous on the face of it well and and it just makes you wonder where it's going because like you said you're

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I like what you said cuz you're pulling on the on the string to the ball of yarn a little bit when when you're talking about you know it's it's it's inconsistent because you're really telling them to go and look at a community or or or a couple.

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Let's say at a more personal level at a couple who doesn't really who don't really love each other. It's a pseudo love now, but they could come back somebody like Butterfield could come back and they haven't yet to my knowledge, but they could come back and say in order to advance their position, they could say well.

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Yeah, they do love each other. Yeah. Okay. But but now you see we've just taken another step down the road.

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Sure because not only are you saying that same sex attraction, you know there's nothing wrong with SSA as long as it's not acted out and not only are you saying that if you're going to evangelize to a homosexual couple, you need to open your doors to them, but now you're validating their relationship.

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It's it's it's legitimate in the sense that there's true love that exists there right and and people always accuse the fundies people like you and me of of of put that voodoo on me.

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Of See where this is going and and over the last 2 years, you can see the progress just over the last 2 years.

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Yeah. Think about was it 2018 when you first started making videos. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that.

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how how far since you first started making videos in the convention. Well, there were little there were little tips of the tips of the iceberg above the surface.

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Yeah. The and people like that kind of putting out provocative articles every once in a while, but now it's like you know that but then you have the convention in nineteen this year and now it's floodgates open.

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Yeah and and within all that came the women preachers controversy, you know and they always use something true right.

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There's abuse of women and then they use that as a springboard to say therefore we need to Dwight. Therefore we need to let people women preach on Sundays and and and So it's gone from social justice.

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economic inequality injustice in society. It's gone from that to abuse of women to women preachers now affirming in some circles, women preachers now now we're here at LGBT.

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Now we're here at LGBT. Yeah. That's the that's been the that's been the progress that's been at least how

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I see it. Of course I was on Facebook for a while and that kind of put me in the dark, but as far as how I see it, that's really been the progress and it's all happened within a year and a half.

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So I was just thinking to myself as you're speaking because I just made the comparison like you know there's sort of like a pseudo community and gang members, but nobody would would would say to go learn from them, but that's actually not accurate.

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I've actually heard and I was trying to rack my brain to think of who it is and I I'm gonna say who I think it is.

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I'm pretty I'm like 95 % sure this is who said this, but I think Francis Chan said that that they do gangs like the

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Bloods and the Crips do community really well and that he's had gang members that have come to his church and then they leave because they had more brotherhood at the gang and and I just remember thinking to myself like that is the one of the most preposterous things and it's just so denigrating to the church as well because it's it's it's it's it's just absurd.

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It's just absurd. Well, let's let's push it even further and sometimes sometimes to to to get a point across or to figure out what's true.

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You take you take the most the most heinous example sure and you apply it so. A pedo attracted 60 year old man.

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Yeah right. Let's say it becomes legal and this man is living with a 15 year old like real.

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I mean would you ever number one would you ever say it's okay for him to be attracted to that person like to that kid and I and I've never gotten a straight answer for anyone when

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I've pushed it to this of course extreme right and and because because they know what the answer is they and they they just can't they can't go there because they would have to they would have to in order to be consistent.

33:14

They would have to say yes, they were they would have to say they would actually have to say no. It's not it's not a sin for him to be attracted to that child right and and they can't say that because they know they can't right, but they have to say that if they're going to be consistent and so often they'll just run, but the other thing is if I want to reach out to that person with the gospel do

33:40

I need to invite that person into my home as well. That's right and if not, it's a good point. Why not right because both you take the the the

33:50

I guess we can nowadays. It's the normal homosexual couple take the normal homosexual couple.

33:56

Sure. You're playing Jane every day walking down the street, San Diego homosexual couple and you know you say that's a sexual perversion.

34:04

That's a that's a perversion of creation. I don't want my one and a half year old to see that it's going to confuse.

34:11

It's confusing for children to see these things and they don't have the faculties to deal with them rightly and they don't have you know, it's not.

34:19

Now they'd say no, you need to have a man as a as a way to to reach out to them and love provide them with hospitality, but but and I'm saying that's a sexual perversion and they say well, that's not a good enough reason right.

34:36

Yeah. Well, what about the pedo attracted person like do I need to provide them with hospitality to like where where's the where's the line drawn?

34:45

It's the same. It's the same problem that that you know they're running into in in politics right now with the whole legalizing gay legalization of gay marriage.

34:57

You know that the what they're running into now is that in order to be consistent, you have to keep going with that like it's not fair to say well, there is no objective standard of marriage.

35:08

Anyone can you know anybody who any couple that loves each other can get married. It would be inconsistent or or or arbitrary to say no, you know pedophilia is wrong.

35:20

We can't do that. You know they they have to keep going and that's the push in American politics and and just actually in Western politics in general.

35:33

And and I think what you're going to see is you're going to see the same fight happening within evangelical circles right is you have the butterfields coming out and kind of normalizing this homosexual thing and then and then but you can't be consistent with that.

35:51

You know when when you say she's normalized and let me just let me just push back a little bit there. Yeah. What exactly do you mean by that because because I would

35:59

I know that the argument that I've seen is that that she's not doing that. In fact, she was the one who said that gay

36:05

Christianity was a different religion and stuff like that. So so what what would you say is is the actual normalization that's going on like by normalizing.

36:14

I mean she's she's taking something like a homosexual couple or homosexuality in general and she's padding.

36:24

she's putting bubble tape bubble wrap around it and and and and it's not as bad as it really is sure.

36:32

It seems like sure and so it's no Big deal to have to to to positively associate yourself with that community right and when

36:43

I hear her talk about the community, I take her to mean the community that is unrepentant of their homosexuality.

36:50

They're living together. They are okay. so that's the only she definitely is talking about that.

36:56

Oh for sure. Yeah. so so she couldn't mean anything else. Now when you take that and and and and make it seem not so bad.

37:08

It's not so bad. You know you can have them in your home. You can you can you can link arms with them as as it were.

37:17

That's that's what I mean by normalizing it. so it's kind of like a desensitization like when you like when you desensitize yourself to something, you know you play a lot of video games where you kill people or whatever and and it's not so bad to to off somebody in real life or whatever you know you think of the school shooters who probably played a lot of those games or what

37:34

I'm not saying video games are are are bad or anything like that. So save yourself a bunch of comments there. Good job.

37:39

Yeah. Yeah, but but you know what I mean when you're desensitized the military does it they they were showing us videos of people being shot and killed and all that and it's like it's like you know to be desensitized to think that something's really not so bad.

37:55

It's not as bad as it really is and I think that I don't want to impose that as an intention on Butterfield.

38:02

I don't I don't know if that's her intention right and I would rather abstain from commenting on that, but effectively that is what she is doing with her language right.

38:13

Yeah. So that that's a very interesting point because I think that was one of the primary criticisms in this in this pulpit and pen article and and the way that they the way that they approached it or rather the woman who wrote the article

38:25

Diane Gaskins one of the ways she approached it was talking about how she talks about Sodom.

38:32

Have you read that that stuff about her comments about Sodom and Gomorrah? No. Okay. So so this is something that I I you know,

38:41

I kind of have mixed feelings about because one of the meme that was put out there was that I had her face on it and I said, well, the sin of Sodom was you know, inhospitable inhospitability to poor and they weren't merciful and stuff like that and it's a partial quotation right right a partial quotation.

38:58

She does talk about homosexuality as well in the actual quotation, but I think what so I have mixed feelings about this because let me just read to you from the the secret thoughts of an unlikely convert.

39:11

Okay. Okay. He said that she said as I as I read more deeply in the Bible, I ran across a passage that made me stop and think this passage in the book of Ezekiel revealed to me that Sodom was indicted for materialism and neglect of the poor and the needy and that homosexuality was a symptom and an extension of these other sins in this passage.

39:30

God is speaking to his chosen people in Jerusalem and warning them about their hidden sin using Sodom as an example. Importantly, God does not say that the sin of Sodom is the worst of all sins.

39:39

Instead, God uses the sin of Sodom to reveal the greater sin committed by his own people as I live says the

39:45

Lord God neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. Look, this was the iniquity of your sister

39:51

Sodom. She and her daughters had pride fullness of food, the abundance of idleness and neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and the needy.

39:59

They were haughty and committed an abomination before me. Therefore, I took them away as I saw fit. I found this passage to reveal some surprising things in it.

40:07

God compare is comparing Jerusalem to Sodom and saying that Sodom's sin is less offensive to God's than Jerusalem's.

40:14

She goes on to talk a little bit more about about the homosexuality part to it, but the idea is that that the root sins were you know pride haughtiness things like that and that homosexuality was a symptom of that um and so I was wondering if if that you would think if you would say that that was an example of maybe desensitizing or do you think that that's appropriate because II saw

40:37

James White, you know use this quotation to sort of refute the idea that she's that she's um you know soft on this and II see his point.

40:45

I think there's a point there to be made because it's not like she ignores it and she's not like she's saying that that wasn't the problem that she does mention that it was the abomination.

40:51

That was a further more aspect of their problems for sure. The Bible says so what do you know and and she's right.

40:59

Uh I think she's correct to say that that's not that that's not the the deeper problem and um and she's even

41:08

I would even say she's right to say that the that the worst sin is unbelief. You know she says that all the time right um true in terms of a person's uh salvation in terms of a person's uh condemnation before the lord what condemns them ultimately is their sin of unbelief.

41:29

Sure right um they are not they are not placing their faith in the lord Jesus Christ.

41:34

Faith is the instrument of justification. You're not going to you know so yes, of course that's the worst sin um if you're looking at it like what's worse for them, you know um but a lot of Christians and this is what

41:47

I think the sad part and this is probably where there's there's some talking past each other going on is a lot of Christians are not saying that homosexuality like god hates homosexuality more than any other sin even more than unbelief and so and so you know that's not the argument right and and the argument.

42:06

I think uh at least and and this is from my perspective is is is is very practical in nature and so um yes the sin of unbelief is worse in terms of the fact that uh you know they are going to be condemned for that unbelief precisely you know, but if they were to repent and believe in the lord

42:25

Jesus Christ, even if they had these twisted affections still and we're still wrestling with them and putting them to death and they'd be forgiven right because they have

42:34

Christ as their mediator. However, if you're if you're thinking in terms of you could say that about murder.

42:42

Okay. So like right so like murder is not the worst sin right right.

42:48

The worst sin is unbelief and then a murderous heart flows from that unbelief and the hardness of heart and then a person goes and carries out murder right and so murder is not the worst sin in the sense that Rosario Butterfield's talking about the worst sin right.

43:06

Okay. But if you're talking about who I want to be around my my flock like as a pastor,

43:13

I don't want a murderer to be in my congregation right um and and I don't want a a pedo attracted person to be in my congregation.

43:23

Okay. So uh like I'm going to go and and I would love to give them the gospel, but I don't want them to be around children right when

43:32

I do right so we'll go meet for coffee or something right. You're talking about an unrepentant, you know, an unrepentant person who is who is right so so of course the worst sin is unbelief, but from a practical standpoint like I don't there's there's there's certain there's certain things outward displays of sin that I don't that I don't want to invite into my congregation because if we're to love our brothers and sisters in Christ and not compromise on that love and and and and not show partiality right then

44:08

I'm not going to bring someone in who could potentially hurt my congregation at a spiritual or physical level right.

44:15

So um I think we can all agree that that unbelief or or the the rejection of the spirit of God or you know something like that is is the is the is the crux of the matter.

44:26

It's a hard heart. It's it's uh it's uh that's the crux of the matter. That's and in that sense, that's the worst sin, but from a practical standpoint, how am

44:35

I thinking about protecting my children and my wife and teaching them rightly and teaching my congregation and and and and all of that and that's a confusing conversation at times.

44:46

I think I think that we again we have to just sort of recognize a point that you were kind of driving at earlier when you talked about sort of the you look like when

44:56

I imagine Rosario Butterfield um in her in her life before Christ right. I imagine she was probably a really nice lady.

45:03

I don't imagine her as being like sort of like like an evil woman, you know like and you know and when

45:09

I say evil, we all understand that obviously everyone is evil without Christ. We get that but right, but I imagine her to be someone that you could probably talk to you know that kind of thing, but we have to understand that like there are there are people in the homosexual community that are like her and then there are and but there are lots of people that are that are dangerous.

45:31

Yeah that are perverted like all you gotta do is look at those pictures from the storybook. You know uh transsexual story hours and all that kind of stuff to know that that like like maybe that's not 100 % of the community, but it's a big portion of the community and I think you can talk to ex homosexuals uh people that have come to Christ and and and many of them will be very honest about what they were up to before before and it's it ain't pretty.

45:58

No, it ain't pretty. It's actually really sad. It's really really really sad. It's it's it's not only soul destroying to yourself but to others.

46:06

It's a very destructive lifestyle and and one of the problems I have with what Butterfield is saying is that she is in a sense downplaying that right right um and so that's not loving to that community either right and so that's why that that was actually my point.

46:23

Sorry to interrupt you. Let me just say this. No no no like there's a way for for someone to not be technically incorrect, which

46:28

I would say that she wasn't technically incorrect, but to still give the wrong impression. Yeah.

46:33

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. No uh you can't what you don't wanna do and and this is this is difficult, but what you what you don't wanna do is you don't want to you have to think about everybody that's affected by this.

46:50

So even thinking about the homosexual community right is it good for them to to say that you guys do hospitality so well we could really learn from you as a church.

47:02

Is that good for them right to tell them because because as if I were to put myself in their shoes and and and receive and you know receiving that kind of commendation.

47:16

I would say well, I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing then because I'm doing it well and and and this hospitality is made possible because of the community that I'm in well, what's interesting about this and I'm not saying that she's trying to send you a secret message or anything like that's that's not where I'm at, but like what's so interesting about that particular suggestion to go to them to see what hospitality is all about.

47:41

She seems to credit hospitality as sort of the reason she ended up eventually coming to Christ like that was the first thing that got her interested.

47:50

You know this pastor, this reformed Presbyterian pastor, you know seem like a real down to earth kind of guy invited her into the home and and stuff like that and and all of that and like so it's interesting.

48:02

So it's like okay. This is actually the way to make converts and you should go learn it from from from this community.

48:09

It's like that you came from what because of the hospitality you found in the church, right?

48:14

That's my whole point. That's a good point. That's a really good point. I don't think I don't think that she's intending to send that signal like okay.

48:21

This is like a secret. You know I'm gonna tell you what but it's it's kind of a weird thing right.

48:27

Yeah. Well, when when people come out and say you know the church has a deficiency here or the church has a deficiency there.

48:37

You know, I think there are people that say that and they have dishonest intentions sure wicked intentions, but I think there are people like like Butterfield who they're just making a hasty generalization.

48:51

Yeah. And you know assuming that they hear about it here or there, you know where a church a particular church here or there lacks perhaps hospitality or or lacks responsiveness to abuse or something like that.

49:04

Therefore, this is a massive problem among all the churches, especially within the reform community, but I'll tell you what

49:10

I have never. I've been across the country to different reform churches. I've been to reform churches in Pennsylvania.

49:16

I've been to reform churches in California and reform churches here in the smack dab in the middle of the United States and I've never received better hospitality than in those

49:29

Areas whether they were reformed Presbyterian churches or reform Baptist churches, right, you know, and of course every church is going to have their there's problems that they're going to need to work on and sure the pastor is going to have issues that he's going to need to to to work on and the congregation as well and and and so to have these figureheads come out on these parachurch, you know mediums.

49:52

Yeah, and just say the whole church needs to go and learn From the LGBT community because they do hospitality.

49:59

Well, implying that we all blow at hospitality right like and that they're all great blows of hospitality and so you need to go find it from somewhere else from a pagan community.

50:11

In fact, yeah, that's right now. There's an argument there. Some people would would bring up and say well, and I think

50:20

I actually I I may have run into this Mark Jones and I went back and forth over this a little bit and and it's not like we totally disagreed or anything, but but you know, we were kind of he was kind of pushing back a little bit on my criticism of Butterfield and and he said, you know,

50:39

I can understand why she would encourage the you know Christians to go learn from the LGBTQ community and and and and I you know why and he said well, we learn from pagan philosophers

50:50

Aristotle Plato, You know Socrates, you know

50:56

Cicero, you name it with the church has taken his mind much truth from from pagan philosophers.

51:02

The difference is the difference is yes. They were pagans. Yes. They were pagans, but by the common grace of God, they were living and they were living actually moral lives.

51:15

That was one of the big areas of study in pagan philosophy in the in the classics was ethics.

51:21

It was ethics. Sure. It was it was what is the what is the chief end of man? They were asking that question before you know before the

51:28

Puritans did in the 17th century, you know, they were asking that question before Christ was was was here on this earth during his earthly ministry.

51:37

They're asking the question. What is the chief chief end of man and and you know, they give wrong answers of course, and you know some would say desire, you know meeting your desires your pleasure.

51:47

Sure Epicureans and then some would say but then you have the Stoics right like the

51:53

Stoics would say moral virtue moral virtue live according to natural law and and live a virtuous life.

52:01

Goodness, you know beauty truth. All these things are to be desired by the moral man and so.

52:08

So the difference is is they were actually talking about things that are very consistent with Christianity right and and the homosexual community is not right is is most certainly not and so I can learn about universals and particulars from someone like Plato or Aristotle because all of those things are in accordance with with natural law and and and are positive examples of representing

52:35

God's creation, but I can't turn to the homosexual community and Look at them and and get that right.

52:43

I can't get that same again. I have to I have to think of something that I've heard James White say dozens of times talking about this whole idea of this kind of like mirror.

52:53

They love a mirror image of themselves. They don't love someone that's complimentary to them.

52:58

You know what I mean like it's so like that kind of a love it has to bleed into their hospitality because this is what we're talking about right.

53:06

I mean yeah, so really what like it is like you're right so you can learn from a pagan source so much so as it's consistent with with God's world, you know

53:16

God's natural law like you said, but this whole idea of hospitality from the homosexual community.

53:22

I can't see how that would be right consistent right and and that's a good point.

53:27

II didn't know I I've heard someone else actually. I don't think it was James White who I heard say that maybe it was my previous pastor who actually brought that up and maybe he got it from James White.

53:40

I'm not sure. I don't know if someone you never know where people get this stuff, but the idea is is there right like like it's a very self.

53:47

It's a very self loved self loving community. so sure and if you ever have the opportunity to know someone who is a part of that community,

53:57

I've worked with them. You know I've you know I've I've I've been around this community. In fact, one of my jobs a couple of jobs ago was in the lighting industry.

54:09

So we worked a lot with architects. We worked a lot with engineers and here in the

54:15

Kansas City area, architecture is like one of the things it's like a big deal here and consequently also that that that that community is also very flamboyant one.

54:27

Yeah, I I've I've gone to dinner parties with you know this community if you wanna put it that way like I've been

54:38

I've been around. I've heard the talk. I've heard what goes on. I've heard the drama like it's constant like breakup get to get back together with somebody else breakup with that person get back together with somebody else.

54:50

It's like this permanent dating like permanent cycle of dating that's going on and it's and it's always filled with like all this.

55:00

All this drama and like and and that happens with straight couples too, but but I'm saying that if it happens with straight couples because of sin, it's most certainly going to happen in the homosexual community.

55:11

Oh yes, where where you're not even you're you're now you're dealing with you know two people of the same sex getting together and and and trying to hash out some of the same problems that straight couples can't even hash out like it's just it's just a train wreck and and and this and this and it is a very selfish kind of mindset because again the premise of the agenda is let us be with who we wanna be with right and and it doesn't matter who we are who we're around.

55:43

It doesn't matter who we're influencing that none of that matters just let us be with who we say we love right. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's this push for meeting you know sensual desires and all that and and the idea that they they just really want a replica of themselves.

55:59

I think it's totally valid. It's totally valid. They don't wanna deal with the the the difference between man and woman.

56:07

Yeah. They'd rather just have a replica of of themselves. So we've gone on pretty long.

56:13

We could probably triple this time and still not have enough time to cover it. So why don't why don't

56:18

I let I've got a couple things that we could talk about, but since it was your video that kind of spawned the interest in this.

56:25

Do you have something that you really wanna cover in this and maybe we can do a second part? Well, the biggest thing that I wanted to cover and we haven't even gotten there yet, but II think

56:35

I we can say we can talk about it now. Maybe just briefly is this confusion and and the way the way to this has been paved

56:46

Over the last several years, so I don't think that this is a new thing by any means, but the confusion between same sex attraction and temptation,

56:58

I think is a very, very, very troubling thing. Yeah, I agree and what

57:04

I'm hearing on social media is is something along the lines of Jesus was tempted in every way we are okay, and so you know scriptures tell us that tempted in every way we were yet without sin.

57:22

And same sex attraction is a temptation. It's also a temptation that arises from the heart right like it's not when

57:33

Jesus is taken out and he and he's driven out into the desert by the spirit to to be tempted for 40 days.

57:40

What you have is you have Satan presenting him with something that a sinful person would see as desirable right the kingdoms of the earth.

57:49

For example, sure like that is something that you and I would be tempted by like we would we would we would and and and we'd be tempted, but we wouldn't only be tempted by it, but we would we would make the next step to actually desire it.

58:03

Sure right and be and you could say and be attracted to it and My contention is

58:10

Jesus never made that step like Jesus never reached out with his heart and desired all of the kingdoms of the world right.

58:20

It was a temptation put before him and he he didn't desire it. He desired his father and his father's will more right than any of those things.

58:29

He didn't desire the kingdoms of the world to desire something that's wicked is sin right and to to relegate a wicked attraction or a wicked desire to own to temptation and then to then to follow that up with Jesus was tempted in every way we were implying that he was quote unquote tempted in these ways as well.

58:55

Sure is grievous to me. Yeah and so when you're talking about attraction, you're talking about something that is theologians in the past.

59:05

I think have made a distinction between external temptation and internal temptation and I think it's a

59:12

I think it's warranted in the scriptures, but I think the language is a little bit confusing. So internal temptation is like something that's wicked that's coming from your heart and you and and and it's it's coming from you right.

59:26

It's not coming from the outside. It's coming from you and then say well Jesus is tempted in every way we were so therefore he had those kinds of temptations too.

59:33

It's like in order to have those kinds of temptations, you have to have a sin nature right.

59:38

They can't arise from something that's pure that which is principle of proportionate causality that which is totally pure cannot produce that which is not totally pure.

59:49

So you can't you can't and I think a lot of this is people aren't thinking about the implications of their words.

59:58

Yeah so and instead of internal temptation, perhaps the better terminology would be desire because we know scripture explicitly condemns wicked desires and the idea that you can be attracted to a distortion of creation right.

01:00:14

You can be attracted to and and and and if we agree if everybody agrees that a distortion of creation is sin the idea that you can be attracted to sin and and and desire sin, but not being sin is to totally negate chapter five of Matthew.

01:00:32

Yeah to me like even starting back in the Beatitudes. Yeah verse six blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they shall be filled.

01:00:42

These are internal things. This is a an inward hungering a spiritual hungering and thirst for the righteousness of the

01:00:50

Lord Jesus Christ and where you hunger and thirst for anything else is not hungering and thirsting for righteousness.

01:01:00

Now we all fall short in that area. There's there's no no ifs ands and buts about it, but but to take to take to basically say you can hunger and thirst towards something to a toward a toward a distortion of creation and not be in sin.

01:01:17

That's the problem you know and and and then he goes on you know and he talks about murder beginning in the heart and adultery in the heart all of this in Matthew five and you start to get the idea that the heart of man's wicked.

01:01:35

What what what I'm attracted to is not necessarily a right attraction and if it's not a right attraction, then as a

01:01:44

Christian in accordance with Romans 813 put to death the deeds of the flesh by the power of the spirit or die like it's my duty now as a

01:01:53

Christian to to wrestle with this and and call it sin and wrestle with it and kill it by the spirit.

01:02:02

Now let me ask you this. So are you that's a very important point and I think that we need to be so careful with that distinction when we're talking, especially when we're talking about Christ, you know and Christ's nature and Christ's desires and things like that now because we're talking about Butterfield.

01:02:21

Are you saying that there's something that she said that's kind of blurred that line or are you talking more in general with the movie? No, I I know

01:02:27

I'm not. I am because I agree with the movement in general. I just never heard her say anything like that, but I could I don't right.

01:02:33

No, I I don't. I don't think she's ever come out to my knowledge. She's never come out and explicitly, but this conversation I agree is happening within the context of this

01:02:41

Sam Albury for sure. Absolutely believes that absolutely. There's an article on desiring

01:02:47

God that that that that sets that forth.

01:02:53

Yeah. This is this is a common thing in in this movement. so II. Yeah, I'm right on with you there.

01:02:58

Alright. so here's what I'm going to say. look do you have anything that you want to say finally because otherwise I'll just wrap up.

01:03:04

No, I think I think that's it brother. So we've got I've got a list here and as you can see,

01:03:10

I've only got check marks next to a few of these things. so here's the deal. so we've got a lot more to cover.

01:03:17

There's this whole idea about about reparative therapy. There's this whole idea about homophobia being a sin lots of other things that I wanted to potentially cover.

01:03:27

So here's what I want you to do if you've enjoyed this conversation. I'm going to link to Josh. It's Joshua Summer Summer S O M M E R on YouTube.

01:03:36

Go ahead and subscribe to his channel. He's got a lot of really good content there. What I appreciate about Joshua is that he's not a wacko like me.

01:03:45

He's very level headed, but still good stuff. so III definitely want you to go ahead and subscribe to his channel.

01:03:52

If you want to see us cover more of this, leave us some comments about that and if you have any specific issues you'd like us to cover, leave us some comments about that.

01:04:00

I can't promise that we'll do everything, but I want to do a part two of this. I don't know Joshua. I'm not going to put you on the spot, but I think we should cover.

01:04:07

Oh yeah. I'd love to have a lot more to cover also. so let me just end with this.

01:04:13

Let's just keep in mind some of the responses I saw to this. I'm not trying to I'm not going to I'm not going to put any motives on people either, but we have to avoid this idea of there being these sacred cows that that you know can't be criticized and I know that nobody's saying that, but sometimes we act that way and I act this way sometimes and so let's just try to take a step back.

01:04:37

I think that there are definitely some legitimate criticisms about some of the words of Rosario Butterfield.

01:04:45

I think there's a legitimate criticism there. I am not saying and I think Joshua what I loved about your video is you said the same thing.

01:04:50

I am not saying she's an unbeliever. I am not saying that she's intending to lead people astray. I'm not saying that she's a secret wolf coming in to spy out our liberty and and and put us back under the yoke of of sin.

01:05:01

I'm not saying any of those things and I think that if if you believe that I'm not saying that you're wrong.

01:05:07

Look everyone's got to draw their own lines, but at the very least there's some there's some thinking about that needs to be done here.

01:05:15

There's some criticism that we need to do. There's some critical thinking that we need to do and so I know we

01:05:20

I know we know with our minds that there are no sacred cows. I'm not a sacred cow. Joshua's not a sacred cow.

01:05:26

We can criticize all of us can be criticized, but we don't think that, but a lot of times we act like that.

01:05:33

so let's just try to not. Yeah. Would you agree with that? Joshua? Yeah. No totally.

01:05:39

I I think it's even sad that we have to qualify that we that we yes.

01:05:44

Don't think Rosario Butterfield is an unbeliever. Yeah. I mean just because you criticize someone doesn't mean you're you're you're anathemizing them or or doesn't mean you know and I go back to the old dead guys, the

01:05:56

Puritans and the and and the reformers. It's like they criticize each other all the time and and nobody was coming out and saying you think

01:06:02

Luther is an unbeliever because you don't agree with consubstantiation. It's like sure come on.

01:06:08

No. I mean right if somebody's an unbeliever, you're going to know it like like. Yeah.

01:06:13

I think so. Hopefully if if there's anything you know if there's any verifiable proof that someone's an unbeliever, you know you would say something about it.

01:06:22

You know yes, yes and let's let's not also make the mistake though that just because we don't think she's doesn't mean that what it doesn't mean that there's no danger in what she's teaching right.

01:06:31

I mean right. These are these are serious issues and it's serious for this

01:06:37

LGBT community. If that's what you want to call the the repercussions are very serious and so here's something else

01:06:43

I'll say too. I appreciate at this point in our kind of culture. I appreciate any level of resistance to the agenda, the way of the world, the the zeitgeist.

01:06:54

If you want to call it that, yeah, I appreciate any level of resistance and so if she's not completely pure on this as Joshua said, hey, maybe

01:07:01

I won't recommend her stuff, but at the same time we can we can appreciate the fact that she recognizes the obvious fact that there is no such thing as gay

01:07:11

Christianity like we can appreciate that. Yes, very much so very much and so you know just because you know we wouldn't recommend

01:07:19

Wayne Grudem systematic doesn't mean that we don't appreciate his words in in some areas. Yeah.

01:07:25

Yeah. Anyway, thanks so much for watching. I hope this is helpful Joshua. Thanks for joining me and listen if you want us to do more, please comment so on my channel and also on on Josh's channel.

01:07:35

This video will be up there as well. God bless. Well, I hope you enjoyed that if you do want us to cover more aspects of the controversy,

01:07:51

I know a big one right now is reparative therapy. That's a big question that people have about about Mrs.

01:08:00

Butterfield's positions because she says it's the prosperity gospel stuff like that. Please leave a comment below like this video, you know subscribe over to Josh Summers YouTube channel and let us know that you want us to do it and we will.

01:08:16

There's just no question about it. The only reason we didn't cover it really today is just because of time. Anyway, I hope that you found this helpful.