Cultish: Answering The Claims to WitchTok

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Alright, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the Colts. My name is Jeremiah Roberts I am one of the co -hosts here as Always I am here joined by Andrew the super sleuth of the show up in Harriman, Utah, how are you doing, man?

00:18

I'm doing well. It's Harriman Harriman Harriman Yeah, I'm getting better than I thought. Well last thing you pronounce you told me about hairy, man

00:25

Harriman, Utah, yes, and you're up there with your little cultish office little cultist setup and now we're even

00:31

I feel like we're now We're more serious because people can't see it. I can actually see you There's this giant plasma screen

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TV or I can see I can see your full mug. So yeah, it's it just praise God for technology So it's always always awesome to have you sleuth around and co -hosting with me

00:47

Super excited for this episode. We are back with Marsh Montenegro We are gonna be doing a follow -up today from our previous episode

00:55

Talking about Wicca and witchcraft and we're gonna be kind of going through Really some tick -tock or I recall like encountering witch talk tick -tock

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We talked about in our last episode that just the prominence of just the occult of witchcraft

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Wicca people who are psychics mediums The whole celebrity micro celebrity culture that's kind of been given to us via social media

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It can be used technology is a great thing. I mean, we're here together Andrew. We're utilizing technology

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We're gonna broadcast out this episode It's gonna get thousands of downloads people are gonna view it thousands of times on YouTube, which is great

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But also it can be utilized for things not so good, which we're gonna talk about And so we are joined once again by Marsha Montenegro.

01:41

It's good to join you. It's good for you to join us again How are you? Hey, hi there. Oh, it's great to be back with you guys.

01:48

It's always It's always fun and interesting. Oh, yeah, always always

01:54

Well, yeah, I mean like I said you've you if you guys haven't if you're brand new to the podcast

02:00

We've done episodes on the Enneagram We've done ones in astrology We just wrapped up just the recent most recent episode kind of going in really in -depth

02:09

Over kind of the history and a level -headed way to viewing the world of witchcraft and Wicca and all of that What we're gonna be doing today is we're gonna be just kind of doing rapid -fire as fast as we can because we were talking about How again the occult has really influenced the new generation?

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And so all these clips you're gonna hear from the social media platform tik -tok And so we're gonna be respond have you respond to these and kind of even and we also so we want to give you all

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Just when we play these clips just understand. This is just the pulse of the marketplace of the upcoming generation

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You might call it Gen Z. I think these Young people would fall under that category. I know that I'm Gen X.

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I would fall into that category, too But as always since you're with us, we have to play our honorary clip to enter to bring you in So let's go ahead and let's go ahead and introduce you by this release the dragon

03:05

Yes, I love it every time I ever get to a bro I've gotten I've gotten very feeling very affectionate towards that Yes, definitely and just before we jump and in case this is the first cultist episode that someone's listened to or they haven't heard even the

03:22

Previous episode even though you're on with us this a couple days ago Just tell them just real quickly about who you are

03:28

And what makes you somewhat of an authority to kind of talk on the subject of witchcraft Wicca New Age and all that Okay, sure.

03:36

Yes, I was involved and what's called the New Age for many years at least 20 years my interest really started before that and I was involved also in Eastern religions, but I was a professional astrologer and I took classes in or dabbled in other areas such as to row cards numerology

04:04

Psychic development past life regression. I You know,

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I just I was I was into a lot of different areas not every single area of the

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New Age That would be impossible. There's so many but a lot of them and I had friends of course who were psychics mediums.

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Oh Yeah, contacting the dead was another area. I delved into psychics mediums astrologers

04:30

It's and witches and Wiccans so a lot of my clients as an astrologer were witches and Wiccans and I actually spent time with them on a few retreats and so I was familiar with Not and it wasn't just one community of Wiccans and witches.

04:52

There were five different groups. I knew of Personally at the time when

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I was in Atlanta, Georgia, which is where I was during this whole New Age life.

05:03

Hmm Okay. Well good. That's a that's a great summary. I appreciate you giving us that so let's just go ahead and jump right into it

05:11

I believe we play this for you last time. So this is a clip of a young lady who is trying to make

05:19

Interesting equivalent because a lot of them what's interesting is that she is aware that the

05:25

Bible is not friendly Towards witchcraft and Deuteronomy 18 is very specific in regards to these particular practices that are an abomination towards God But look in this one.

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This is a young lady and she is trying to make a very interesting equivalent so I'm just gonna go and play this clip and We'll go ahead and just maybe spend 10 to 15 minutes or so packing this apart and and we'll go from there

05:47

So here's the first clip So people want to say that it's impossible for me to be a Christian and a witch

05:52

I just have a couple things to say about that immaculate conception witchcraft rising from the dead witchcraft stars leading to a baby witchcraft gifts of frankincense myrrh and gold witchcraft walking on water witchcraft turning water into wine witchcraft

06:16

Healing people instantaneously Witchcraft. Okay. So there is that there's a very conclusive 32 seconds argument

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And this is what you'll see, you know, tick tocks are usually 30 to 60 seconds long Where he would just kind of throw in their points.

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So is there any that is this a valid argument? So we just pack our pack up our bags and go home and say well, we had a good run

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We don't have any way to answer that or is there a better way to answer that? I'd love to hear Oh, yes, absolutely

06:44

First of all several of the things she mentions there are miracles From god and she's equating miracles with witchcraft uh because they're both

06:56

Put into the category of the supernatural Now, of course miracles are the real supernatural a miracle um from a christian viewpoint is a power that god

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Exercises god does something Miraculously that goes beyond the natural it's not contrary to the natural

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But it is beyond the natural It's something that Man can't do on his own so when for example, jesus raised

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Lazarus who had been dead for three days This was a miracle, but of course jesus as god has power over life and death

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Just as when god brought samuel back In first samuel 28 and then there's another story.

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I think it was elijah who raises the Widow's son, uh the dead the widow's dead son.

07:58

It's either elijah or elijah. I think it's elijah That power was given to him by by god

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So god has power over life and death God also has power over creation

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So jesus walking on water is not witchcraft. That is his power over creation

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Just as when he rebuked the sea and the wind And there when there was a very bad storm

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On the lake and he was in the boat with the disciples and they thought they were going to drown and jesus just rebukes the sea

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And the wind and they obey him they obey him because he's god Now another point to make here is that witchcraft can't do any of these things

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They cannot really they can't walk on water They can't heal instantaneously and they can't raise the dead

08:49

Uh witchcraft has absolutely no power to do any of those things so this is probably a good place for me to Have a little footnote on On what

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I think about Whether there is power in witchcraft or not and here's what I think I do not think the people doing witchcraft actually

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Have power. I think that in some cases not all depending on what they're doing

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There is a demonic supernatural power But it is very minimal compared to what god does.

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It's very minimal They can't no witch can go out in the middle of a storm and make the sea and wind

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Obey her or him no witch can do that and has ever done it and never will do it

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They can't do any of those things. Jesus did So what what she's doing in that little?

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30 second clip there is trying to equate miracles

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With what she believes are supernatural powers and witchcraft um, and I this is not uncommon because It's it's not unusual that you find among new agers and and occultists

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The idea that many things in the bible were done with magic for example um, it's often um said that moses

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And the rod that he had or the aaron's rod Uh was really a wand and really was used for magical powers.

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So all the miraculous things they did were magic um So this idea is not is not a new idea

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But the but the problem is they can't support this with any real life

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Verified examples because there's nothing there's no way they can replicate any numericals of the bible uh, so You know, that's really the main point i'm trying to remember all it was everything she listed a miracle

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I can't remember everything. Well, one of the well once she even listed the the immaculate conception or really

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Again, she gave a couple examples in that 30 seconds But I think she was really appealing. She just really it seemed to be just really anything remotely coming across is supernatural

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I think that was the gist of her argument, which is right flawed just real quick. I think it's obviously flawed because What deuteronomy 18 is saying is saying this is a certain particular category of the supernatural that's off limits

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This is a no -fly zone, but that's not but that's not indicative of that and so even like the immaculate conception or even really just which is a byproduct of the

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The incarnation is a byproduct that the bible versus the new age would even would look at some dualism

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Where the suit, you know, the physical is bad, but there's an emphasis on the supernatural Or something of that nature whereas biblical christianity makes perfect sense of both the supernatural

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And the flesh it's not this misbalance, uh of categories And so, you know, she's just she's making just a very bad categorical error but it's very indicative of the type of reasoning that is that we have in this very

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Uh post -modern tiktok culture that we're observing just in that 30 second clip. Yeah, can I and actually oh, i'm, sorry

12:04

Did you want to say something? I just want to kind of piggyback off what you're saying to you marcia. I want to read galatians 5 19 through 20

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It says this it says now the works of the flesh are evident sexual immorality impurity sensuality idolatry

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Sorcery and i'll just stop there You can continue on the point that i'm going to make right now is exactly what marcia was saying is these people who are witches wiccans they need some type of ritual or medium or some way to try to Uh transcend this material reality into a supernatural existence in order to recreate something that Where god he doesn't need mediums.

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He doesn't need any of these things the miracles flow from his nature He is god and he is transcendent yet imminent over all

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Things so he doesn't need an object like a staff. He doesn't need Uh a pentagram drawn with a circle with candles on each point.

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It's just not that's just not uh, The same things like you were saying as well jerry it's a false equivalence to miracles and the creature needing some type of ritual or medium to To go past the material and into the supernatural essentially

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That's a those are very good points. There is there has to be some kind of tool and or ritual

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And or calling on a spirit a god a force an elemental spirit of nature or something like that um to supposedly make the supernatural power work

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So you're right. It is it it you're they're dependent on something else and of course and even then

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They can't replicate what god does but you're right. There's a very big difference whereas with god.

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It's not any kind of effort or special You know thing god has to do in order to get in order to you know for jesus to Calm the storm.

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He just simply commanded the sea and the wind to stop He just said stop and that was that was all that was needed.

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There was no ritual at all Um, I wanted to I think I I could be wrong, but I I want to clear this up She said immaculate conception.

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I think that refers to mary I think that refers to the conception of mary, doesn't it?

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Not. Oh, yeah the virgin virgin birth. Yeah Yeah, I think I she may have said it thinking it means the virgin birth

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But um, I don't think they're the same thing. I need to double check that I think immaculate conception is a roman catholic thing about mary.

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Yeah, but Let's take the virgin birth. Okay, that was Definitely a you know, it's usually not called a miracle, but it was definitely a supernatural thing that Theologians still discuss and debate because we still don't totally understand understand

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You know, we know the holy spirit overshadowed mary. There was some kind of supernatural thing going on jesus was still fully human

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And conceived and was in mary's womb just like Any baby today is in the womb but the conception was a supernatural conception and that was

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Certainly, there's nothing like that in the world of witchcraft um, so Yeah, the the thing is this can be confusing

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You know the people who watch tiktok being probably mostly I imagine

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Probably largely under maybe 25 years old. Yeah You know very young maybe, you know, 13 14 15

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Are going to hear something like this and think she has a point because Uh that age group is in an un part of an unchurched generation

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And they aren't exposed to any kind in most cases any kind of biblical knowledge or understanding

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And they may hear things here and there from the bible, but they don't really understand it so in their minds when they hear this

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And I hope some of them are listening or get this podcast somehow um, I hope they understand that Everything she said is is false because there's a difference between the miracles of god

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And what witches claim are their supernatural powers? so That's and since god does condemn witchcraft another point is since god condemns it he certainly wouldn't use it

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So he does god's not going to use something He condemns uh

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You know casting spells or call, you know Calling on spirits, etc.

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Now god can do things That we can't do but he's always in Harmony with his nature and who he is

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That's right. That's right. The the gate the angel gabriel didn't come to mary and tell mary Hey, you need to perform x y and z

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In order for the holy spirit to come and put a baby inside of you No, god put the baby the incarnation of jesus christ inside of mary mary didn't do some ritual

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She didn't do a seance. She didn't contact the dead. No god came to her right Okay, uh, so second one

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We'll just jump into the really great points and I think this is good to kind of just break down A very thorough, uh, you know thoroughly a 30 second tiktok clip

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But again, this is just indicative of this upcoming generation and how they how they're thinking through these things

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Uh, so the next category is uh, this is someone making the argument the title is called christian witches worship creation

17:40

So, uh, we'll just go ahead and hit play. I don't even know what they're going to say. We've got 30 to 60 seconds we'll see what comes out the other end and uh

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We'll see what happens here. Here we go Yes, of course you can Witchcraft is not a religion.

17:54

It's just a practice many christian witches actually see it as Worshipping god through witchcraft.

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This is because they're working with and worshiping the thing that he created which is the earth and nature

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To christians god created everything god created the universe the world so he created energy and nature

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So a really great way that a lot of christian witches Practice christianity is by working with what god gifted them and i'm not a christian

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Which I just know many christian witches and that's what they've told me Witchcraft itself is not a religion

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It's just a practice with nature and your journey with it is your own and it can be however you want it to be

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And don't let anybody tell you different I hope this helped Mwah Yeah, so there you go.

18:43

Uh, that is, uh, some very some interesting argumentation Uh, you can see a lot of post -modern relativism, especially at the end kind of what is truth

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Everyone's on their own unique journey and path and she's making sort of an equivalence with you know

18:57

God creating all things and so there's always an element Where some of the things she's saying is true, right, but there's a slight deviation.

19:04

I think about the interaction I believe when some of the apostles in the book of acts, you know, there's someone so the lady who's under different spirit

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It says look they are proclaiming a way Right, so they are they were kind of proclaiming she was affirming what they were saying

19:19

But there was a slight distortion in it. So she's making an equivalence. Yeah, god did create these things.

19:25

He did create Energy, I guess you could call it or all those all the ins and outs of physics and all that But it's again she's using as a means to and that's that's what

19:34

I caught on But what are your thoughts off of that clip? Okay. Yeah, i've several. Um, First of all, yeah, you're right that there's often a little bit of truth and in falsehoods

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So, you know when she acknowledges god created everything He created the universe.

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Yes, that's true christians believe that The problem is is that because god created everything it doesn't make everything sacred

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Um god is the only one who should be worshiped and god was is very clear about this

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In fact, it's one of the most, you know, one of the clearest Themes of the bible is that you are to worship only the true god

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And of course as christians, we believe in the trinity the trinitarian god God is one three distinct

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Persons at we say persons. We don't mean human persons, although jesus is also fully human

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But so god the father god the son the holy spirit all co -equal and co -eternal

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Distinct but not separate from each other and they are not each other

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So god is not the holy spirit. Jesus is not god the father god. The father is not jesus, etc

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So we have one god and jesus affirmed this and you worship only god in fact when jesus was tempted in the wilderness satan tried to get jesus to worship him said

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I will give you all this if you bow down and worship me and jesus said but It's written you only you are to worship only god.

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So creation is not Sacred creation is from god But god and god is everywhere this is an important point to make god is everywhere

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But he is distinct from creation. He's not in creation He's not a part of creation creation is not a part of god

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And this is a confusion that you find in lots of places even in christianity but that that's a principle that Probably in witchcraft in the new age.

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They don't believe or understand Another thing about what she said I I want to mention this because she said it twice

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She said witchcraft is Not a religion. It's a practice And I want to address that because actually it's both

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It is a practice and when the bible was written Um, actually there's I covered this in the other program on on wick and witchcraft

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There is no hebrew word for witchcraft. So we probably ought to say that in this program as well

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Um, there's no hebrew word for witchcraft. So when you see that word in the english bibles

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Uh, the english language bibles, you may think well if there's no hebrew word for it, why is it there?

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It's because It is the equivalent for the practice of certain occult arts such as divination

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And contacting the dead Those practices were considered part of witchcraft

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When bibles were translated and witchcraft can be a it can be defined

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As practicing certain occult practices if you look at it as a generic term

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And not a not a a religious term. Okay, so witchcraft as a religion

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Came about in the 20th century actually, even though there's people who claim it was

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Witchcraft was a religion before that's not true It came about in the 20th century as a what we would call a religion

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With certain practices and beliefs and people following certain set guidelines um

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And actually, I think the supreme court I could be wrong. I think the supreme court declared wicca

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Um or witchcraft a religion a number of years ago because I know that people in the military

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Who are witches and die as witches I think are allowed to have a witchcraft symbol on their gravestone

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Like if they want the pentagram i'm pretty sure i'm right. I could be wrong. That's also true for satanism

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So I may be thinking of satanism and not witchcraft But i'm pretty sure wiccan witchcraft has been recognized as a religion if not by the supreme court at least by the culture

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And a lot of wiccans and witches will say it's a religion so it's kind of funny that she's saying it's not a religion because a lot of Wiccans and witches have worked very hard to promote the idea

24:17

Of it being a religion Yeah, so, you know whether it's just it's definitely a practice and I think it's a recognized religion

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I have no problem calling it a religion. I I don't have a problem with that But to me it's kind of beside the point whether it's a

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Practice or a religion what we have to look at is the content What does it teach?

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What kind of beliefs does it have and how do those compare to the bible? And really nothing in wicca witchcraft

24:49

Is compatible? With the bible beyond the idea of if they want to say god created everything

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Um, okay, that's compatible There's one other point I want to make and that is she used the word energy and I want to say that there's often a false equivalence with this word because usually when

25:10

Someone in the occult or the new age uses the word energy. They don't mean physical energies like electrical energy

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Okay, they that's usually not what they're talking about. They're talking about supernatural energy now sometimes

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What happens is especially in the new age? They try to promote the idea of energy vibrations and frequencies, especially in healing they try to promote it as scientific and so what they'll do is they'll refer to scientific things like electromagnetic frequencies or radio frequencies or some kind of Actual physical vibration that can be measured

25:53

And they'll say we'll say look at all these things. These are all scientific and all we're doing is talking about applying

25:59

The science to healing but that's not true at all because the energy in the new age is not physical.

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It's supernatural and um So there's a lot of confusion around that word.

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This is one thing I have been battling In my ministry and believe me, it's a battle uh, because people are falling for a lot of quackery

26:24

In the healing arts area because of this confusion, um on energy So I I don't know what she meant when she said energy um, she may have meant physical types of energy we can

26:40

Measure, but it's likely that she did not mean that or she was also including supernatural energy

26:46

So I needed to make a point about that. No, that's good. And of course, uh, you know, just given the world view the typical world view of uh new age practices does tend to be pantheistic all is divine all is self

26:58

And so it would make sense that there would just be an assumption that could be what you know What she was sort of indicating in that so, uh, the next one is kind of interesting

27:08

Wait, wait, wait before you go on. I want to say something about that one as well So what's the first commandment right? I think the way jesus would respond to these people is the same way he would respond to the pharisees.

27:17

Have you not read? Have you not read the first commandment thou shalt not have any other gods before me?

27:25

right beginning of the bible Why is man created to worship god glorify him forever and to take dominion over creation?

27:34

right to take dominion over creation to understand that there's a separation between What is sacred like marcia was saying which is god what he defines as holy himself thrice holy and what he has created

27:45

And our dominion and power that we exercise over it as image of god bearers, right?

27:50

But when you exchange the glory of the immortal god for the creation worship the creation instead of the creator

27:57

That's actually a judgment from god because you're actually lowing the position of yourself and the dominion mandate that we're supposed to exercise as christians and now

28:06

You serve and worship the creation and it's absolutely a religion I would say the bible defines that as a religion because you're worshiping something other than the true and living god, right?

28:17

Have you not read religion? Yep. Yes and romans one. I'm glad you mentioned that you didn't say romans one

28:22

But you were referring to it. Exactly. Um, I would urge anybody listening to this who is wondering what he was referring to to read

28:31

The first chapter of romans starting around verse 18 or so 18 19

28:37

It goes into the fact that god has revealed himself His attributes can be seen in creation

28:44

So in other words, and then he says man has no excuse in other words, we can all see there is a creator

28:51

Just by no just by looking at creation We realize there has to be a creator and that and then the woman on that tiktok thing was acknowledging that If she believes it she she's acknowledging.

29:04

Yes. God made everything and that is evident That's something god says everybody can see for themselves.

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They don't even have to be told that but then god goes on and talks about What happens is man?

29:18

suppresses this truth And he exchanges it for a lie and he starts to worship creation

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Rather than the creator and then it goes downhill from there And that's what happens in the next several verses of that passage in romans is where god describes that and like Andrew said

29:39

You man's worshiping creation when god actually says he made man in his image nothing in creation

29:48

Is made in god's image except man He didn't make trees in his image.

29:54

He didn't make the rivers in his image You know, he didn't make the flowers in his image.

29:59

He only made in the animals He didn't make the animals in his image only man is made in his image

30:06

And so man even though man has fallen and naturally sinful um man is still a creation of a level above The animals and nature although god loves his creation and we are not to abuse it

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We have we can't worship it because not only then are we not worshiping god the creator of those things

30:31

But we're worshiping something god put us above So, um, that's that's a good point.

30:38

That's a good point andrew and it's good. I think to to bring up romans one there Amen. Thank you marcia

30:44

All right, so the next one it's going to be interesting this is someone who is uh, Wearing some interesting makeup.

30:50

Uh, you won't be able to see it We'll play it we'll play this clip when this goes live on the youtube channel This has to do with uh christians and spiritual warfare apparently a witch giving uh their assessment of it

31:01

So let's go ahead and play this clip and see what happens here. We'll unpack it. Here we go Spiritual warfare is a normal part of the christian walk.

31:10

The enemy is always so Someone pointed this christian out to me

31:18

And this spiritual warfare video is exactly what

31:23

I was talking about before Part of their indoctrination into christianity

31:30

Is that if you don't constantly Berate people with your beliefs.

31:37

You're not a good christian So when I tell you that they want to end us and our faith

31:48

That's what they preach in their churches That's what they preach on tik tok

31:54

They don't want peace They want warfare Just read the video

32:01

Okay. So just what that is. Uh I believe it's called a stitch is where One ticker talker will respond to another one.

32:10

So the very beginning of it is actually a christian talking about ephesians uh spiritual warfare and now she's uh, this is a witch then responding to that so Just off the get -go.

32:22

I mean what give what's the mindset of like that lady? Who's making that assumption? About the christian referring to this as spiritual warfare like just give me your immediate thoughts and just impact that however you can for us

32:33

Okay, of course, I don't know what the christian is actually saying because I do want to acknowledge the fact

32:40

That most spiritual warfare teachings I hear about in the church are bad. They are not biblical

32:46

Yes, in fact a lot of the spiritual warf so -called spiritual warfare teachings in the church and it may be on that video um that that Which uh referenced

32:57

I don't know Are actually more like the occult it's actually where they imitate things in the occult

33:04

And do things like, you know, it's almost like they're they're doing a counterspell

33:11

Or they think they have to say certain words or do certain things um you know, they have to repeat something three times or they have to go to each corner of the house and And bless it or something.

33:22

They have some kind of ritual these are all actually from an occult mindset and one of my big issues with spiritual warfare in the church is that It is more occultic than biblical now if the woman was was talking about ephesians 6 in a sound way and And giving a sound interpretation of it.

33:42

That's another matter. I and we don't know if she was or not So there's comments on it from the switch she could have been reacting to something that was actually not biblical, but It is wrong for her to say that christians, um on the whole are trying to eliminate witches

34:02

Or you know trying to do it's like like we're in warfare against them She made it sound like we think we're kind of battling we think that we're in a war against witches and maybe other people

34:14

And of course that is not a biblical view if any christian thinks that they're not thinking biblically

34:20

Because ephesians 6 spiritual warfare says specifically Our weapons are not flesh

34:26

We're not fighting flesh and blood. It says that right there. I mean, it's that's almost an exact quote

34:33

You know, we're not we're not and we're not using Material things in warfare and we're not fighting against people.

34:40

We're fighting against spiritual forces and actually

34:47

You know the way I see it and I know there's different views on this but the way that I see it

34:53

Is that god tells us the way that we do this and he gives us the armor, right?

34:59

He talks about the breastplate and the helmet And you know the belt and so you've got truth

35:07

In there and the helmet of salvation And what is it the shield of faith? Maybe you have these different pieces of Of equipment that apparently was worn by Roman soldiers,

35:19

I think And that's used as metaphors For standing your ground in the faith

35:28

On the strength and truth of jesus christ. We are nothing without jesus christ.

35:34

We can't We can't deal with anything evil in the world on our own in our own strength

35:40

I mean it would just flatten us in two seconds, you know, if god if god didn't watch over us so um

35:47

The spiritual warfare for a christian is not to be against witches but to expose

35:54

For example the false beliefs of witchcraft in order to keep people from being deceived

36:03

Because those beliefs are contrary to what christ taught and what god teaches

36:08

So our desire is for those caught up in witchcraft to see the truth

36:15

And to see the truth of christ and see who the real jesus really is And and christians who really love christ

36:23

Have a passion for that they care about people Who are in things like witchcraft we care about you.

36:30

We're not against you We don't want to eliminate you for heaven's sakes. That's the last thing we want to do

36:36

We want you to hear about the true jesus and to know about him we can't make you

36:42

Believe in him. We wouldn't try to force you to do it Um, that's contrary to christianity too.

36:48

That's anybody who's done that in the name of christ has done it falsely because You know, there's nothing in the new testament that endorses forcing people to believe things

36:58

So, you know the way of following christ is to present the truth and then let god

37:05

Work in that person's mind and heart And god is the one who reaches people with the truth

37:12

But we are to present it and we are to expose teachings that are against god so that is

37:19

One level of spiritual warfare, you know the other levels dealing with evil or dealing with Um, you know evil things.

37:27

How do you respond to that? How do you deal with somebody going against you maybe? Um when you're trying to maybe preach the gospel or something and but but again, you don't go against that person

37:39

You recognize That satan opposes christ and satan will use people to go against The gospel and and he does

37:49

Uh, but we don't we don't go after people as our people are not our enemy

37:55

People are not our enemy. Our enemy is satan, but not people and so That's very important for people in witchcraft and the new age and anybody who is not a christian to understand any idea that That of spiritual warfare that is against people or wants to do away with people that is not coming from god

38:16

Any christian preaching that is not preaching the bible. Okay, they're preaching a warped idea

38:22

They may have so whatever this woman said on the video. I don't know but I want to present the biblical view

38:30

And acknowledge there are people who teach things that are not biblical. There are christians who teach unbiblical things

38:36

So oh, absolutely and given and given that again, it was on tick tock This is a good chance that sometimes that that might have been like a really bad example

38:45

This was just a response to it But again, it shows you and I think one of the things just very interesting is that you know

38:51

We're doing around a 15 minute response to a 60 second clip that shows you that you know, really biblical christianity and apologetics

38:58

This is a real this is a work. This is a Working of the intellect. This is a religion of the intellect where we actually have to use our minds to think through What are all these answers?

39:08

How do we give real answers that we can really think through? Versus you know a very 30, uh set 30 to 60 second a mostly charged argument so this is another one here we go and this is

39:21

Really interesting too because you know, one of the things that waltz martin would say Many of times when you talk to a cultist or a new age or he would you know, they would say well

39:29

I believe in jesus and walter martin would always say well, which one in regards to the fact that every single person every cultist every

39:38

Everyone always they have to do something with jesus. Everyone wants someone everyone wants jesus on their team

39:45

And in fact russell brand who is a very popular outspoken person and now is sort of becoming his own

39:51

Uh guru of sorts he's been doing this now this world tour Where he's kind of giving this talk giving his insights and all the different religions of the world why

39:59

I haven't heard it You know He has a whole segment where he talks about jesus And that's just a point to say that every single person they have to do something with him

40:07

So this is someone on tiktok. They're going to make uh, 30 to 60 30 to 60 second argument that jesus was a witch

40:15

So, uh, this should be a very interesting argumentation and we'll we'll have someone unpacking

40:21

So let's go ahead and let hear what this. Uh tiktoker has to say then we will uh, we'll release the kraken

40:27

Are there examples of christians practicing witchcraft in the bible? This is a great conversation and shout out to lucille for inviting me into it

40:34

I'll tag her below if you're not already following or you should be before I answer this let me tell you what my definition of witchcraft actually is because I feel like those in the

40:43

Dictionaries are poorly defined and heavily influenced by negative western Ideas about what witches actually are to me witchcraft is a physical act or ritual that is representative of spiritual power

40:55

Either your own or that of your deities that results in your intention becoming manifest Based on that definition you find witchcraft in literally every religion

41:03

And it also means in my opinion that one of the most badass witches that ever existed was jesus christ himself

41:09

First you've got the laying of hands to heal Modern medicine has pretty much already proved that this is possible through the placebo effect what you believe happens

41:18

He walks on water to me That's the bending of elements He casts demons out witches would call that a banishing and that part where he breaks bread and says eat this this is my body

41:27

Well, that's taking an ingredient giving that ingredient an intention that will manifest in the user

41:32

That's not any different from how we use crystals herbs oils and spells He creates massive amounts of food out of nothing to feed everybody and i'd love to master that whole turning water into wine thing

41:43

Baptism is a cleansing ritual Holy oils are used for multiple purposes in the bible I have to mention that because i'm a huge fan of oils in my craft

41:52

And most christians completely skip past that whole frankincense and myrrh thing. It's almost like the magi already knew what he was

41:58

So yeah, maybe highly controversial, but in my opinion jesus was witch i'm a big fan

42:05

Wow, that's uh So, how do we unpack that should we uh, just pack up our bag and say we're done, you know irrefutable argument

42:13

We just you know, that's it throw in the towel or do we have a response to that?

42:19

Oh, definitely. There's a response. Um And she brought up something that was mentioned by in the very first video that I forgot about and I want to address that So she she refers to it about the frankincense and myrrh being given to jesus

42:34

She said it's almost like the magi recognized who he was. So I do want to say something about that real quickly the they gave that to jesus, uh

42:43

Because those were very expensive items And they were honoring christ

42:50

Um, it's also sometimes some believe, uh that those represented things like one represented the sweet aroma

42:58

Uh that later it's the new testament talks about those who believe in christ carry a sweet aroma of christ

43:05

And that jesus's sacrifice on the cross was a sweet aroma to god and one of the other

43:12

Items, I think it was myrrh which is bitter is used I think in for burial Or maybe it represented the bitterness of his death

43:20

Anyway, sometimes people see those three gifts as symbolic of jesus's life his sacrifice and his

43:27

What's going to eventually be his death? and it's also um, actually presents

43:35

That were very expensive that honored christ because the magi who were pagans recognized jesus as divine

43:46

This is they it says they bowed down and worshiped him the first Recorded worshipers of jesus in the bible are the pagan magi

43:55

Um and magi were probably were probably, uh, you know Magi, I did a whole project on this in seminary

44:02

So I mean a whole paper on the match I saw I looked up the word and the old testament derivation of it and everything

44:08

Um, and that's where magic comes from the word magic But the magi were wise men who counseled

44:16

Uh kings and rulers and at that time a wise man was somebody who was considered learned

44:22

He was educated in the healing arts. He was educated in mathematics and he was educated

44:29

And at that time what was a combination of astronomy and astrology? Naturally, they they didn't have either of those words astronomy or astrology did not exist at that time.

44:39

Those words came much later But they followed what they thought were the patterns in the sky and they believed there was a meaning in them

44:48

That that part of it is astrology And of course god condemns astrology so the fact god used magi doesn't mean god endorses astrology

44:58

It means that god can use pagans to recognize christ and he can use pagans, uh

45:07

For any purpose he has and the gospel is going to go out to the gentiles

45:13

This is a theme in the gospel of matthew and the account of the magi in matthew

45:19

Is only found in matthew the account of the magi is not in any of the other gospels

45:24

It is only in the very very jewish gospel of matthew And that's very significant because there is a theme throughout matthew that the gospel is going to go to the gentiles

45:35

They're like little previews of it and it comes right at the beginning there in matthew chapter 2 with the magi

45:41

So I have talked a lot about the magi on some broadcasts and stuff So I I you know,

45:46

I don't want to keep on going on that because I could I could talk even more about it But I do want to make those points.

45:53

So the gifts Weren't given to jesus because they represented some kind of Like special supernatural power

46:01

And the other thing that she said that she's wrong about and unfortunately a lot of christians have this wrong

46:06

A lot of christians are into essential oils Essential oils are not in the bible and people keep telling me but they're in the bible.

46:15

No, they're not The process for making essential oils did not exist until at least 800 years after the bible was written

46:24

They didn't know how to make essential oils. The oils in the bible are diffused oils

46:30

They're not essential oils. There's a difference essential oils are supposedly

46:37

Oils that are coming from the essence of the plant and they're very very they're highly concentrated which actually makes them dangerous

46:45

So essentially the use of essential oils can be very dangerous and uh

46:51

It the oils in the bible are diffused oils and they were mostly used for practical purposes

46:57

Like like lamps like lighting lamps Um when they're used, uh, when they say to put oil on somebody and pray for them in james if they're used symbolically

47:09

Some think that That sometimes it represents the holy spirit It was not that the oil is the holy spirit, but it represents the anointing of the holy spirit.

47:19

So there are different Biblical ways you can go with those oils, but they weren't essential oils.

47:25

So That it has nothing to do with the essential oils used today because I heard she said she liked oils and i'm sure she's talking

47:32

About essential oils. Well, that's okay. She likes them, but they have nothing to do with the bible right

47:39

And then some of the other examples she brought We addressed in the first video some of the like the walking on water

47:47

Um, and her definition of witchcraft was she kind of redefined it so it would suit what she wanted to say

47:55

That it's some kind of power that you get from your deities I think she said your gods that you believe in and then you use it to manifest something

48:03

Well, that is which that is witchcraft I mean in a sense that's a Generic sense.

48:09

That's what witchcraft is, but jesus didn't have to get any power from anywhere jesus has

48:16

Natural power as part of who he is Yeah, he wasn't tapped into he wasn't tapped into something

48:23

Uh outside of himself and he's all things were created by him and for him and him are all things

48:28

And then all things hold together So again, it's a it's a it's basically another category error where they're looking at this this young lady is looking at these particular

48:40

Supernatural events which is really reality pointing to the fact that jesus christ was the messiah even a lot of all the miracles

48:47

That he did were used to you know, show that he indeed was the son of god He was god come in the flesh.

48:53

And so again, she's making some definitive category errors and it is And it is Interesting too, you know, we mentioned that here we are

49:00

We finally got to mention, you know people have asked us about we finally talked about essential oils the one and only time on cultish so The only and actually just jokingly

49:09

We uh, we have a new sponsor of the show a good friend of ours at our church. Uh, jeremy rule He has a company, uh forged beer forged beard company forged beard co .com

49:18

Shout out to shout out to his little shout out there, but he's got a different beard balms beard oil stuff like that You know just for like hair beard care products.

49:27

So we jokely said on social media This is the only this is as close to an essential oil that we'll ever sponsor or endorse

49:34

Yeah, I don't know is he actually selling essential oils or are they just no just like just like just like uh,

49:40

Beard oil just like oil for like a beers that doesn't get dry because outside of putting anything in there You know, it gets all it gets all like dry and being irritable and stuff like that.

49:48

So Um, but yeah, that's definitely the case Andrew do you have any thoughts on some of the claims that she made before we jump into the next clip?

49:56

Yeah, and I want to I want to address the baptism one real quick because I think yeah, that was a good Baptism, let's let's try to think about it as a witcher wiccan.

50:03

Whatever. Um, whatever they want to call themselves they would they would assume I essentially the water is a method or An object in form of a ritual for cleansing is what

50:12

I heard Well, that's not what the bible says about baptism It says it's not a removal from the dirt of a body of your body

50:19

But an appeal of a clean clean conscience to god in first peters 321, but also in colossians

50:24

It states that baptism signifies being buried and resurrected with christ.

50:30

That's it It doesn't literally cleanse us from anything It's only the blood of christ and the holy spirit taking our heart of stone and replacing it with the heart of flesh

50:40

That cleanses us. There's no object No water no food

50:45

None of that no ritual other than the act of god himself taking our heart of stone and replacing with the heart of flesh again

50:51

The medium's gone. There's only one mediator between man and god and that is jesus christ. God himself

50:57

No ritual. Yeah, god does it it's a good point. Yes That's i'm glad you mentioned that because I forgot about the baptism part and baptism as you is seen by most christians as symbolic

51:09

Of the fact that you have died with christ and been resurrected to new life and so you're acting it out in a symbolic way if you do the

51:20

Well, especially the baptism by immersion, although not all christians use that method

51:25

But whatever method it is it is symbolic of the death burial and resurrection of christ and I want to quickly mention that Jesus actually had to deal with people

51:37

Like she was saying jesus was a witch he actually had to deal with people They were the pharisees who said they he was doing his power by the power of satan and He strongly rebuked the people who said that and told them that was a that actually was an unforgivable sin because they were saying that From unbelief because they did not recognize him as the messiah and as andrew pointed out

52:02

The miracles jesus did were a fulfillment of prophecies in the old testament and jesus was fulfilling uh that those prophecies and doing miracles was one of the one of the things he did that Showed he was the messiah.

52:17

They refused to recognize him that way and said he was doing his miracles by the power of satan and actually

52:25

Jesus we know the holy spirit when jesus Does baptism is baptized the holy spirit descends on him?

52:34

Jesus does miracles by the power of the holy spirit and um, he is but he's god

52:42

And he is able to do what? He well he all and he also said when he was on earth.

52:47

He only did what the father told him to do So he lived in complete obedience to the father But the father the son and the holy spirit are always in unity and harmony.

52:57

There's never any distension or You know one going one way and one going the other they're always in harmony and unity because they are in one godhead so, um

53:10

The fact that she said jesus which made me think of the pharisees accusing g although she's saying it as a compliment

53:17

Uh, she you know to her that's that's a compliment But of course when the pharisees said this they were accusing jesus, but jesus

53:25

Fulfilled all these prophecies. Oh, I want to mention real quickly before I forget In the old testament, there's not a single case not a single one of any miraculous healing of a blind person

53:38

That is one thing that doesn't happen. You have dead people being raised You have sick people being made.

53:45

Well, you have lepers being healed You don't have a single blind person in the old testament being made to see that happens when that happens only when jesus comes

53:56

And he there's several accounts of jesus healing blind people. There's a long one in john chapter 9 incredible chapter

54:05

But in in all the gospels, there are various accounts of jesus healing blind people

54:12

And this was never even done in the old testament This was one of the most significant miracles because it's predicted in isaiah 35

54:21

And I think there's one other passage that i'd forgotten, but i'm pretty sure it's in isaiah 35 There is a prophecy um a messianic prophecy and it includes

54:32

Making the blind see so I want to mention that since we're talking about miracles Oh No, that's really good and that's one of the things too while You know, and again, this is just something that when we look at these equivalents being made we shouldn't fear these people

54:48

These are people that are they're desperately, you know, seeking out for help desperately seeking out for for answers, but not from But not from the you know, the king of king and the lord of lords jesus christ

54:59

But they're looking at they're looking through it from the forces of evil But the thing that does alarm me and it is concerning honestly breaks my heart

55:06

Is that they in order to justify? their Practices they're trying to equate

55:14

What is it is a miraculous act of god with witchcraft which god causing calls an abomination?

55:21

So in other words, they're in order to justify what god calls abominable They're now having to describe what god does and elsewhere with good supernatural acts

55:30

They're having to call that abominable too So they're putting themselves in dangerous category not saying it's the unforgivable sin or anything of that nature

55:37

I mean there's plenty of people that we've interacted with who are former witches people who were

55:42

Involved in all aspects of the new age the occult and the supernatural that god says is off limits and now have freedom in christ but it is indicative of the fact that uh, this is just this is just the zeitgeist the spirit of the age and how

55:57

They're trying to reason in order to justify what they're doing. But at the end of the day You know

56:02

Biblically, we can kind of look into their mindset that these p that the all these uh, young ladies these tiktokers

56:09

They know god they're without excuse. They're suppressing that truth and unrighteousness and and sin is one of those things.

56:16

It's not just witchcraft We have the ability to get really creative in ways that you know

56:22

In order to justify our behavior in ways that we're in rebellion against god You think of one of the very first sins? Well god the woman who you gave me

56:29

She made me do this. Yeah, right. So you're kind of seeing that lived out. So, uh that right away and I want to In case anyone's confused.

56:38

I am not saying anybody's doing it. I do not think My view is the unforgivable sin.

56:44

Jesus spoke of cannot be done today. I think it could only have been committed while he was there and people actually witnessed him doing these miracles and rejected him as the messiah because they saw it

56:57

Right in front of them and god was saying, you know, you've got everything right here showing you

57:03

This is the messiah and you are saying no he's doing it by the power of satan

57:08

In other words, you are rejecting the messiah and that was to me I think that when jesus said that it was very specifically to those people

57:17

Um, there's an account count of it in two different gospels And i've read both of them and this question comes up a lot just within the church about what is the unforgivable sin

57:27

There's so much confusion on it. So I personally think along with others that it could only have been committed at that time

57:34

Um, and it was probably only committed by those people that jesus spoke to so that's my position

57:40

You can always come to christ. It doesn't matter and I want to say one more thing because in witchcraft sometimes they will hear

57:47

Once they've dedicated themselves to witchcraft they can never undo it And they could never for example if they think they were raised christian or were at one time a christian and they become a witch

57:58

They're they're told that they can't ever go back. They could never become a right. They're beyond christ

58:04

That is just not true And i've actually talked to witches who believe that so I want to say very clearly to anybody listening who's in witchcraft

58:13

It's never too late. You can always go to christ his forgiveness

58:19

Covers anything that you have done or think you have done Because the power of christ forgiveness is in his atoning death on the cross

58:29

Which is way more powerful than any sin you could commit. You can't commit a sin that is more powerful

58:36

Than what jesus did on the cross. Yeah, so, you know that goes to christians too who sometimes think they've sinned and can't be forgiven

58:43

What jesus did on the cross? Is enough it's sufficient for forgiveness of any sin, so I want to make that clear nobody needs to think that they can't

58:54

Come to christ or that they can't be forgiven. Amen I want to want to piggyback off that real quick because it's such a powerful thing like The bible presents humanity is this we are spiritually dead

59:06

There's only one way to go right from there is up. You can't go further down into your sin

59:11

You're already a slave to sin Right gospel is the answer that's the warfare that's talked about in ephesians 6 remembering who christ is putting on the full armor of god

59:22

Using the sword right the word of god, which does what points to the messiah? We do want to see witchcraft and wicca end but not as bloody bodies in the streets by no means

59:33

It's not a flesh and blood It's by you coming from spirit being spiritually dead and brought to life in jesus christ through the power

59:40

Of the gospel, that's it god is the conqueror of nations But he's also the conqueror of hearts and he's the only one that can do it

59:48

You can't you can't go any further down. We want you to go. We want you to go up and be with you jesus Well, that's what my whole ministry is christian answers for the new age is part of it is to reach

59:59

Those in the new age and the occult people like in wicca and witchcraft my ministry

01:00:04

You know the two goals of it Educating christians on the new age in the occult and reaching those in the new age in the occult

01:00:11

That's why I I have conversations with wiccans and witches in my ministry And so it's the opposite of being against anybody.

01:00:20

It's totally opposite of that It's just wanting to share the truth of christ with people that that is exactly

01:00:26

I am i'm actually I actually Am supported as a missionary. I have a mission agency

01:00:32

So I am a missionary to people in the new age so so, you know

01:00:38

Just we're good. We're making it clear. We are not against people We're not we're not looking on you as an enemy exactly and I just say that's before we jump on to the next clip

01:00:48

Which is one thing I want to comment on quickly As long as we've been in cultish and been doing this ministry

01:00:54

We've seen a lot of sort of the interaction, uh with different people, but i've seen different even New age groups even former new agers people who've become christians, but they still have this mindset almost this

01:01:05

They're still got that new age mindset still being a christian And some of that has to do with the fact that maybe

01:01:12

They are in a spot where they had such certainty that they had all this knowledge that they were in the truth that they were

01:01:19

In the know Then they realized it was all deception, which is all It was done and that's via satanic power

01:01:26

But then all of a sudden there still becomes this over emphasis on it even being a christian Well, they'll look at you know areas in the world

01:01:32

They'll look at certain people who are still in the new age And will say oh they've sold their soul to satan or there's no way they can be saved and like well

01:01:40

Right. Look at you. Look at look at who you previously were and all these things. Oh, yeah For a long time for a very very long time.

01:01:48

I mean, yeah, I was over 40 when I was saved. Yeah I mean, you know God can reach anybody.

01:01:56

There's not my father was saved when he Shortly before his 80th birthday literally on his deathbed.

01:02:04

He had been a lifelong agnostic raised by an atheist father so, you know

01:02:10

God there's nobody beyond god's reach Oh, yeah, definitely and just just to give a very general example before you jump on is that people i've seen certain people talk about The pop artist katie perry and suppose, you know

01:02:24

I guess her story is that she kind of grew up in the christian church And she was going to be a gospel singer and then she from what

01:02:31

I understand the story is that she sold her soul To satan and to the to hollywood or whatever And now she's just now she's sort of this agent of satan and marketing this stuff

01:02:42

And now what's interesting too is that if you go to some of her music videos there are certain ones that have a lot of Hinduistic symbolism and and there's and there's that category there but Biblically, we should not that shouldn't scare us

01:02:55

We should be aware that you know greater is he that is in you than he that's in the world But you realize that god is perfect.

01:03:03

He's all powerful. He's perfectly able to save katie perry from any from any aspect of whatever she's under the influence of and that's honestly we should hope and pray for someone like katie perry or russell brand or jp sears or Aubrey marcus or any of these influencers or really anyone no matter how given over they are

01:03:21

There's no one who's outside of the grace and mercy of god And so when it comes to dealing with even those people or these people on tiktok, we have to realize first and foremost

01:03:30

These people are image bearers of god and they were created for worship and fellowship and relationship with god

01:03:36

And they're trying to pursue that through a spiritual narcotic. That is witchcraft and wicko

01:03:41

So honestly when we look at this, we don't we shouldn't use these as examples to make fun of them We're not mocking them.

01:03:47

We're critiquing their worldview their mindset and how we're viewing these things and our hope Isn't that we can say ha we well, we're right.

01:03:55

You're wrong. We won the argument. We walk away No, that's not our goal. Our goal is that each one of these, uh

01:04:02

People on tiktok these young ladies would come to know the true and living god Uh, and so on that note, let me go ahead

01:04:09

The next one is uh, reverend rosie. This is a reverend rosie on tiktok

01:04:15

And she is going to be defending Giving her 30 to 60 second case to defend witchcraft.

01:04:21

So let's see what reverend rosie has to say Hello beloveds. I'm reverend rosie and this is about to stir the pot

01:04:30

Have you ever lit a candle in an old cathedral as a prayer? Have you ever prayed to the holy spirit to make something manifest in your life

01:04:40

Have you participated in a baptism? Do you have old ancient words written on things and posted around your house?

01:04:50

Have you blessed something with holy oil? Do you ever taken a walk in nature and found a deeper connection with god?

01:04:59

Have you ever been? Invited to come to the altar of grace and receive a blessing

01:05:06

Dear ones all of these things and more could be considered witchcraft And so my question for you is does it make you uncomfortable that other people have a spiritual practice and use their language differently?

01:05:18

Or does it make you uncomfortable that you do it? Again, a lot of the same similar arguments and comparisons from previous videos, but we are seeing a pattern here

01:05:30

Um, is there anything that she says that's different from the other other videos that kind of sticks out to you that we haven't responded to yet She mentioned the holy spirit.

01:05:39

I don't think any of the others mentioned the holy spirit Um, there may have been a couple other things she said

01:05:46

Did she what did she say? Do you pray to the holy spirit pray to the holy spirit? Yeah to manifest interesting that she said that because actually, um

01:05:55

I haven't ever found a belief in the holy spirit among wick wiccans or witches or even new agers

01:06:02

Um, if if there is a reference uh Actually, I don't even know that i've ever heard a reference if there were to be one

01:06:11

They would probably redefine the holy spirit or they would probably say it's same as spirit

01:06:17

Because the term spirit is very common in the new age and the occult Um, for example, and i've i've come across a lot of confusion on this and I actually finally put it in one of my articles on my website um,

01:06:31

I have an article on um It's on spirit guides and part of that article is who is spirit or what is spirit because You will hear mediums and psychics for example talk about spirit.

01:06:45

They'll say well Spirit told me that or even wiccans or witches and they'll say

01:06:51

Spirit told me that or that was from spirit. That was a gift from spirit And some christians actually think they're talking about the holy spirit, but they're not of course talking about the holy spirit

01:07:02

But they may be and maybe she's equating the holy spirit with spirit So when she says have you ever prayed to the holy spirit?

01:07:09

She's thinking well, that's the same as what we call spirit So if you pray to the holy spirit, then you're just doing christians you as a christian are just doing what

01:07:18

I as a witch do You know, I talk to spirit or I appeal to spirit and spirit is this very nebulous thing

01:07:24

It's never never defined but it's kind of this Force or energy or maybe it's kind of as a substitute for god and you know everything comes from spirit or it could refer to What mediums think of as the spiritual world, which is the world of the dead

01:07:43

Um, so there's a lot of different possible meanings for it depending on who's using it But that term spirit gets confused with the holy spirit

01:07:52

So the fact she said that caught my attention and I thought immediately thought it's the word spirit

01:07:57

Which I think may be what she? Is talking about and of course none of the things she said um

01:08:06

Are are something that you actually have to do in christianity do you light a candle do you bless somebody well

01:08:13

In in biblical terms blessing someone is very different from what it is in witchcraft. There's not

01:08:19

A supernatural element to it. We're not blessing something um

01:08:24

To bring some kind of power to it if that's what she means, which is what I think she means

01:08:29

We don't do things and we don't pray another thing that I I heard even when

01:08:34

I was in the new age I heard this from witches I heard prayers are the same as casting spells

01:08:42

Because you know, they'll say and i've i've heard it from a lot of wiccans or witches who have who have contacted me

01:08:49

And they'll say well, you know when you pray you're just doing what we do when we cast a spell. It's the same thing and no, it's not no because A prayer in christianity is not some kind of ritual or procedure

01:09:05

To make something happen a casting a spell is going through some certain steps

01:09:11

In order to achieve an outcome usually to make something manifest To bring something into reality that is not yet in reality

01:09:21

A prayer is not we're not doing some kind of ritual to get something to manifest

01:09:26

Yes, sometimes people pray for actual things Maybe they'll pray that god will enable them to buy a new car because they're falling apart

01:09:36

But they don't think that by the prayer they're going and if they do think this they're not being biblical because unfortunately you have

01:09:43

Like the word of faith movement and some other cultic Movements within the church where they think if you say a certain thing you can make it happen

01:09:53

They say you have the power Of of life and death in your tongue and you have the if you're a christian

01:09:59

Then you have the power like god has and you can speak things into existence If anybody hearing that who's not a christian hears that I want you to know that is not biblical and that is not christianity

01:10:12

That is actually closer to the occult And unfortunately, it's a deception in the church and it's not biblical and it's not what jesus taught when we petition god for anything

01:10:23

It were the the way to do it biblically is to put it under his will

01:10:30

If it is your will lord Then I pray for xyz if it is your will

01:10:36

I pray for a raise for my boss I pray for the money to buy a new car

01:10:42

Or I pray for the money to you know, pay my bills or whatever it is. You're petitioning god for You're doing it according to his will and how he works it out

01:10:52

And he may provide what you need in another way a way that you haven't thought of Because he has a better way of doing things, you know, we think we can tell god, you know

01:11:02

This is going to solve my problem lord. So Here's what i'd like to see happen. Yeah God may have a completely different plan.

01:11:11

Well, yeah We are to yield to that we are to yield to his will so prayer Is actually a way of submitting to god.

01:11:19

It's not a way of getting what we want Yeah, and again, it just shows you sometimes it's very important to define terms

01:11:26

Uh, both when you're when you're talking to someone who's who's a cultist or in the new age but also sometimes you have to let's say if you're in conversation with them,

01:11:35

I would just Try and really get to like what do you think you? What do you mean by that because a lot of times they'll have a perception

01:11:42

Of christianity based off of their own confirmation biases or presuppositions or even kind of viewing it

01:11:47

Through the lens of her own worldview and even if she's unintentional in doing so she's giving some really gross misrepresentations and but You would want to think though with tact not to say.

01:11:58

Oh, I got you I'm going to show you in 10 different ways that you're wrong. Yeah, but Show them in such a way to get them to think

01:12:05

To actually get them to understand because sometimes just in the process of getting them to understand What we actually believe

01:12:12

You actually get to give them the gospel, which is the power of god into salvation So it's kind of like sometimes it can be like a no -look pass, you know

01:12:19

You could it just it happens that way So, um the next thing I want to just jump into and this is a going to be a very interesting

01:12:26

I think Yeah, so like the thing is is the answer to most of these questions.

01:12:33

It's it's have you Not read. Yes, like the woman who calls herself The reverend and then goes into these things what she's doing is she's forsaking the law of god for the sake of her tradition

01:12:44

This is the same exact error That the pharisees had concluded if she would only read her bible to go to how jesus prayed

01:12:52

Right our father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name thy kingdom come Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven and then jesus in the garden

01:13:00

He's praying he said lord Let this cup pass from me, but not my will but your will be done, right?

01:13:05

If a prayer gets answered from a christian, it's not because your will manifested anything into this reality

01:13:12

No, it's your will aligned with god's will in that moment in prayer is for us to be in communion with god

01:13:17

But it's only mediated by the blood of christ and it's god who makes those things happen. The prayer isn't the medium

01:13:24

Right. It's god's will in him making it happen Very true

01:13:31

Yeah, could have been a better way to say that andrew Appreciate that. All right. Go back to what you're doing. No, you're good.

01:13:36

You're good, man Uh, and just so you know too even though we're on zoom here. We got amazing technology There is a little bit sometimes a little bit of a time delay.

01:13:42

So just be wary of that Um, but so the next video this is going to be a very interesting one -to -one pack um

01:13:50

And so i'm going to just give you the title i'm going to give you my thoughts before I even play the clip And you'll give we you can also give us your commentary as well to marcia

01:13:58

The category the title for this tech talk video says christianity says I can be a witch and a queer

01:14:04

Um, so before I even play that That's it's interesting um the one thing that came to mind

01:14:10

In our research as we were kind of going through a lot of the footage and kind of the marketplace of ideas there seemed to be this really interesting appeal both to Uh people who identify themselves.

01:14:21

We talked a little bit about this in the last episode. Um as a feminist witches Where you know, which witchcraft and feminism there seem to be they seem to kind of go hand in hand with the power of the masculine and feminine and in the whole process of Witchcraft and wicca it's a huge aspect of it is identity

01:14:39

But and it's sort of almost redefining the roles of male and female in their world view

01:14:44

And as we know when you right now when you look at the whole discussion of gender It's really a role of identity and also dealing with this strictly from a christian worldview

01:14:54

That you know god's this is male and female He created them that were made uniquely in the image of god.

01:15:00

We're both male and female are equal before god I believe we have unique and distinct roles where we're different from each other yet equal

01:15:05

So a lot of this is a unique aspect of identity and you're and it seems to me seems to be that there's a distortion in the world of in in wicca, but now with the implosion of the people really kind of dealing with and struggling with Gender identity and now this is just a huge part of politics.

01:15:26

What have you? There there seems to be a huge appeal Uh to people having these types of conversations now and and this is just to say this is the zeitgeist

01:15:37

This is the spirit of the age and as we look at people having these conversations one Are we need to have love and compassion for these people?

01:15:44

Our hearts need a break for them, but we need to give that we need to have answers for this just like anything else

01:15:50

So, okay. So marcia the next one, uh, we'll just look at this is another uh, tiktok tiktoker influencer

01:15:56

Uh, and this is someone uh, the cow this cat the topic is called christian witch and and a mystic so I believe

01:16:04

This is another person trying to it's about a 60 second clip Doing their best to justify

01:16:10

I believe their practices of witchcraft. So let's see if there's anything distinct from uh, other

01:16:15

Uh, the other clips that we've heard and let's let's let's hear what this person says. We'll unpack it So I identify as a christian witch and a christian mystic

01:16:23

Those are two different things and I practice both a lot of christians are like you can't be a christian witch that's like That's legitimately two opposites

01:16:31

And in a way you have a point because I do not identify as a christian in the sense of what the church preaches from You know the roman catholic church to protestants to what we have today

01:16:44

I still identify as a christian because I feel like I cannot negate the responsibility That I have as someone who is raised evangelical and now is an exvangelical

01:16:53

To just like not have anything to do with the church I believe with my

01:16:59

Privilege, it's now my job and responsibility to be part of the reformation in the church

01:17:05

And the reason why I still identify as a christian as a christian witch a mystic is because I follow the teachings of yeshua

01:17:11

Who's a buddhist by the way? If you follow jesus, you definitely are familiar with witchcraft

01:17:18

Okay, all right, okay we got buddha in there. Yes. Yeah that she had that was the cherry on top for sure.

01:17:26

Um, What what's that what sticks out to you in in contrast to the other clips that we played

01:17:32

Yeah, she's um, yeah, it's a little different She's not talking about any of the miracles or the powers of witchcraft like like in the other videos um, she's more along the lines of seeing jesus in a particular way

01:17:49

Um, she says actually he was a buddhist Okay, there is out there separate from the whole witchcraft realm

01:17:58

This idea that jesus and buddha taught the same things This is a very common idea in the new age and you even have books out there people have written

01:18:06

You know jesus and buddha and I actually addressed it on facebook a few times and I have an article

01:18:14

Um on buddhism on my website because I was responding partly to this idea that jesus and buddha taught the same things

01:18:23

So I do want to address that Uh, she's saying I think what she's saying is okay.

01:18:28

She says she's not following christianity the way that it's normally Taught by the church, you know, so she's putting herself outside of the church with her own brand of christianity

01:18:40

Well, you can't do that because the church is the body of believers the universal church

01:18:47

In the in the in the you know, the generic sense of the word Uh, or what's sometimes called the invisible church

01:18:54

Is the body of believers? Uh, jesus established the church He's the head of the church

01:19:02

And so once you have trusted in the true jesus christ You are part of the church whether you like it or not

01:19:07

Whether you're going to a building or not or whether you're going to a baptist church or a lutheran church or a methodist church

01:19:14

Or whatever You're still part of that invisible church the body of christ. I think she's making a distinction between being a christian in her ideas of what it is and being a christian in the church in terms of like Denominations or what she probably sees as organized religion, although she didn't use that term um

01:19:38

But that then you're not in christ because if you're not part of the church, you're not part of the body of christ um, so she's kind of formed her own brand of christianity basically

01:19:52

And she's not following yeshua. She's not following him because he said he he started the church in matthew 16

01:20:01

He makes a statement about that to peter Um, and actually he's making that statement in front of a cave where the pagan gods were worshipped

01:20:13

Uh, it was a very pagan place where he made that statement. It's very interesting that jesus chose that spot

01:20:20

And said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. In other words satan cannot destroy the church.

01:20:26

It's impossible Because jesus is the head of the church and satan can't destroy jesus so, um

01:20:34

She's put herself outside of yeshua's church So at the same time she says she's following yeshua, but she actually isn't uh, and in terms of buddha and jesus

01:20:47

Although some of the things buddha supposedly said may sound similar to some of the things jesus said

01:20:55

The top context is completely different the context of buddhism and christianity are so so different in buddhism you have

01:21:05

The idea that all that exists is buddha nature or buddha mind nothing else actually exists

01:21:12

Even the self the individual self actually does not exist in buddhism And you actually are supposed to come to that realization in order to achieve liberation

01:21:23

You will keep having rebirth in this world and keep having suffering until you realize yourself actually does not exist and so then there's

01:21:35

Teachings and processes you go through supposedly to come to that realization such as mindfulness

01:21:41

Which I have articles on on my website just fyi. Yeah, so So that's the worldview of buddhism.

01:21:49

Whereas in in the worldview of christianity and what jesus taught every individual

01:21:55

Is is a a unique person made in the image of god God created man

01:22:02

Um, we are not we each have a true self. We really have a self and a self that is permanent

01:22:10

It's going to go on forever even after death And the question is where which eternity is the self going to be in?

01:22:18

After death is it going to be with god or without god that's that's the two choices so It's very different because we exist

01:22:30

In buddhism, we don't really exist God exists, but he's distinct from the universe in buddhism.

01:22:37

There is no god Buddha never talked about a god. He didn't deny god, but he never spoke of it

01:22:44

According to what buddha supposedly said and I want to point out The teachings of buddha were not written down until at least 500 years after his death versus the bible where we have

01:22:57

Some of the bible written like I think within 30 years of the death and resurrection of jesus christ

01:23:04

You know very short a very short time period there were people who still remembered jesus when the bible was being written um

01:23:12

In buddhism, it was like 500 years So nobody really knows for sure when you see all these things buddha said this buddha said that nobody really knows for sure

01:23:21

Did buddha really say that but there was a body of teachings supposedly from buddha that have that came about in around 29 ad

01:23:32

And then developed from there And you have many branches of buddhism now see

01:23:37

I was into buddhism I was into Zen buddhism. So that's why i'm i'm saying so much on it because that's good because I have this kind of inside view of having

01:23:48

I wasn't a buddhist in the terms of the way that a buddhist over in japan or china or Um somewhere like that would have called me a buddhist, but I took on a lot of the buddhist

01:24:00

Ideas as I understood them as a new ager and I read a lot of buddhist literature so What you basically have are two opposing world views and jesus

01:24:10

There's nothing jesus taught that is buddhist Jesus actually taught more from the jewish teachings of the old testament than anything else

01:24:20

Jesus was constantly referring to old testament Writings to old testament prophets like isaiah

01:24:29

He was pointing to the prophecies. He was pointing to what was written in the old testament

01:24:35

The jesus was just you know Once I understood the old testament better as a christian and I was reading the new testament.

01:24:42

I was sort of blown away By how much of the old testament? Is in the before gospels?

01:24:49

Through the mouth of jesus through the teachings of jesus because jesus was jewish Jesus was raised with old testament teachings

01:24:59

That is where he he was coming from And he fulfilled the prophecies of the old testament over 300 prophecies were fulfilled by jesus

01:25:09

So jesus and the old testament have a very strong tie and and with judaism

01:25:15

Um, I mean, it's incredible. There's nothing buddhist and there's nothing buddhist about judaism

01:25:20

Although a lot of jewish people are into buddhism There is an appeal in buddhism and I understand it which

01:25:26

I won't go into because this show isn't about buddhism But there is an appeal that I totally understand from buddhism and to see to equate jesus with buddha sounds kind of It sounds profound to a lot of people there and because they're thinking wow yeah, you know if jesus was just teaching like what buddha taught then

01:25:46

You know, we have these teachings that we can go into buddhism if we want and we'll still be

01:25:53

You know, we'll still be believing things that jesus taught so it kind of gives a stamp of credibility to buddhism

01:25:59

To try to equate the two, but they cannot be equated The world views are two.

01:26:06

It's really two world views in contrast Very importantly as well what we see happening today is a resurgence of pseudo historical claims

01:26:14

There was a claim made I believe in the late 19th century by nicholas nuttavich

01:26:19

Who said this I probably butchered his last name But he claimed that during the unknown years of jesus from his ages of 12 to 30

01:26:26

He went to india and he learned the buddhist philosophy However, that was shown by scholars as a hoax

01:26:33

But most people today don't actually go back and actually do these claims But what I find interesting is someone who claims themselves to be a mystic and a christian quote -unquote mystic

01:26:41

Believes pseudo historical sources. I mean we saw that with the enneagram Right all of these christian quote -unquote mystics who believe pseudo historical sources that aren't actually backed up in history

01:26:52

It's just made up history in order to support A view that is antithetical to the actual bible and the actual teachings of jesus, right?

01:27:02

right Right, that's true. There is that false idea that jesus went to the east and he learned from hindus and Buddhist teachers and other people like that, but at that time since the writings of buddha weren't even um, actually around till 29 ad that was more or less the time jesus was crucified, so Jesus could not have gone and learned buddhism

01:27:30

And of course if he had gone anywhere In the east and come back with any teachings

01:27:37

Uh that were non -jewish The pharisees would have been all over that like quite on rice

01:27:43

I mean they would have been like hey, you are teaching something completely foreign to judaism um, and nobody claimed jesus was teaching another religion they

01:27:55

Rejected him as a messiah, but they didn't claim he was trying to teach another religion And that would have been great for the pharisees to throw at him because they were trying to find something to pin on him

01:28:07

Um, and there's no evidence that jesus went anywhere like that And certainly not in his teachings, but that idea is very common in the new age.

01:28:17

It's i've even done a facebook post on it Um, there was a woman who actually this is right up your alley guys

01:28:24

Who led the cult the church universal and triumphant? I can't think of her name.

01:28:29

She died several years ago. She wrote a book about jesus going to the east It became very popular in the new age um

01:28:38

And her name's not coming to me But she had a she actually was the head of a cult a new age cult

01:28:44

And I actually had a housemate who was in that cult And he and his girlfriend um had a baby and I Stood in as a proxy god parent at the baptism of this baby, which was done by a universal church and triumphant minister wow interesting

01:29:02

Yeah Yes yeah, so I had my own little encounter with that a brief but um

01:29:10

I know why her name isn't coming to me I'll have to i'll have to try to find it give it to you later But this was a cult she went up.

01:29:17

She took her followers up to like montana or something like that And they later found all these weapons

01:29:23

They had amassed all these weapons there because they were in preparation of some kind of you know apocalyptic end time scenario or something

01:29:33

Um, she had quite a few followers. I mean her and her book Uh was read by new agers, you know, it was read by people who were not associated with a cult

01:29:43

So her influence went beyond her cult as far as that book goes No, that's really good and that's

01:29:51

I think we might have gotten messages that that rings the bell I feel like someone has messaged us about them.

01:29:57

But yeah, you've probably heard you've probably heard of her if her name ever comes to me Yeah, all all these names and calls they all they all enter they all

01:30:07

Interconnect they all they all intersect one way or another but um, I think at the end of the day

01:30:13

I think both with uh This series the one we covered last time that was just kind of a lot more in -depth and historical analysis than this one

01:30:20

We're just giving some uh specific examples of you know, how do we actually you know answer?

01:30:26

Uh, you know the different claims being out there that are being made and again The examples that were used are people of the younger generation kind of utilizing the social media platforms of of what they have and and even

01:30:37

Back when you were into this stuff marcia that you you had different ways in which you would uh, try and propagate this stuff

01:30:44

Whether I don't know if it was audio cassettes or just flyers or whatnot. Now someone can take up their phone

01:30:49

Record themselves and and reach out to who knows a minute how many hundreds of thousands of people?

01:30:55

I think though at the end of the day my takeaway from this from the last episode and especially this one is that when we're looking at You know the supernatural or people who are into different things

01:31:06

Categorically that would be labeled the new age or the occult or even witchcraft or wicca Especially in in light of you know, people look at what's going on with you know everything surrounding halloween and and all that I think when it comes down to it a lot of times we're sort of through the lens of hollywood and a lot of Even the cessationalism are kind of led to kind of like really fear that stuff in the sense of really fearing the people

01:31:30

That are involved in that but as we mentioned, you know, our our battle is not against flesh and blood

01:31:35

Uh, you know, we these are people that are image bearers of god and if you notice this whole time we're not trying to You know bring up some sort of supernatural way to like hit them back, you know in some sort of socialistic way

01:31:48

This is no different than if we're on the street talking with anyone Regardless of what the worldview is we're answering the questions that they have we're answering their objections it would in with graciousness and we're trying to Uh give them the gospel and that's what we should do

01:32:03

And like I said, we're not a neutral podcast and we have this point of view, but that that's my takeaway Uh, andrew, do you have any last thoughts and marshall?

01:32:09

I'll let you wrap up with any other thoughts that you have I I think you uh beautifully summarized it brother like we're here making this podcast because we want people to know that Uh witchcraft isn't the answer wick is not the answer the tools of the occult aren't the answer the bible condemns it

01:32:25

Why because it it enslaves you and it doesn't bring you hope and when you die You're not going to be with god in eternity worshiping him through the blood of jesus

01:32:34

No, you're going to be in a different position you're going to be facing the wrath of god for all eternity and we don't want that for you and that is the truth because That's what god's revealed

01:32:44

Word says right like that's that's our heart. That's our burden. We don't want that for people

01:32:49

We want you to know who you truly are in jesus because you'll never actually know who you are when you deny your maker

01:32:55

You'll be lost and you'll be suppressing the truth and unrighteousness and worshiping the creation instead of the creator

01:33:01

And that's that's that's where we're at, you know, and we don't want that Definitely definitely margie any other any last thoughts you've had on this conversation or any any last thoughts as we wrap up here

01:33:12

Um, I think just you know, I agree with what andrew just said and what you said um,

01:33:18

I want people to understand that You know the true christ the true jesus christ is somebody who died because of sin he died so that Sin would not be an enslavement if you trust in christ

01:33:38

It says, you know, you know the truth the truth makes you free It's the truth of jesus christ and that's the only real freedom that exists is coming to trust the true jesus christ and unfortunately, there's a lot of Fake and false jesuses out there even in the church

01:33:57

So, um, I would urge anybody who has in any least interest in what we've said and who does not know christ

01:34:06

Or doesn't think they know christ to pick up the bible And read one of the gospels, you know,

01:34:12

I I would suggest either matthew or luke But if you want to read mark or john, that's fine And just see what jesus has to say see what jesus really teaches

01:34:23

Notice if you have a reference bible how often he refers to the old testament Because he was referring to the teachings in the old testament or what god laid out

01:34:34

For his people the jews and it was a revelation of who he is You know, the people had gone into worshiping pagan gods.

01:34:43

They didn't they'd forgotten who god is god reveals himself so that People could see who he is and how different he was

01:34:54

From the pagan gods. This was what exodus was about when um

01:35:00

Moses kept going to pharaoh and saying, you know, god is telling you you need to let his people go and pharaoh would

01:35:08

Say, okay, and then he changes mind and then god would send a plague This was all and god even says this over and over there in that in that account

01:35:19

I am going to show pharaoh Who I am he is going to know

01:35:26

He's going to recognize that I am a god who is over the other gods

01:35:33

And this is because the other gods are are not real They're demonic powers and so The demonic world is very real, but but the thing i'm not trying to make you afraid

01:35:46

I although I think that you should care about Not knowing christ because in the end

01:35:54

Like andrew said it is an eternity without god and without jesus christ and so God loves you.

01:36:03

He wants you to know his son. Jesus christ. Jesus wants you to know what he What he did and who he is so it's all about to me.

01:36:11

It's about who god is and who jesus is I don't think there's a lot of clarity on that today um

01:36:17

So, please investigate or come to my website to christiananswersforthenewage .org

01:36:23

You can contact me through my website and i'm on facebook. I have a facebook page there christian answers for the new age um page that you can find so You can contact me there

01:36:37

I just want people to know that we care And we're open to hearing from you

01:36:42

Or if you're christians and you have questions on this area, so i'll stop there because otherwise Oh, we know we know

01:36:50

You can you can continue you can you can carry on if you go to christian answers for the new age

01:36:55

Uh and and check out that your site definitely a lot of great resources and as always marcia It's a privilege and pleasure to have you on as always and we look forward to having you on again sometime soon um, so Absolutely, so if you all enjoyed this episode go ahead and comment on our social media

01:37:12

Let us know what you thought leave us a review on itunes whether it's Uh, five stars one star or whatever wherever you fall in between.

01:37:18

We always appreciate the feedback And as always a program like this cannot continue without your support So if you feel led to go to the cultistshow .com

01:37:26

You can donate one time or monthly and all that being said we'll talk to you all next time