Covenant Theology part 4

Cling to the cross then put both arms around it. Hold to the crucified and never let him go. Come afresh to the cross at this moment and rest there now and forever. Then with the power of God resting upon you go forth and preach the cross.

Welcome to the laborers podcast tonight. We're gonna be discussing and be back in the discussion of covenant Theology. Covenant theology part 4 for us reform covenant theology Presbyterian Baptist New Covenant theology.

Hopefully we can touch on all aspects of that. Stick around with us as we continue the conversation.

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Now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast.

Welcome back. The comment line is open. We would love to know that you are watching or listening. You have a question or critique. We're open to that too. If you're listening live watching live or later.

Let us know. We'd love to hear from you Tyler from bread of the word Troy from the humble Baptist podcast. How are you guys doing? Doing good doing good doing good. Happy to be here. Good deal. Good deal.

Well, I'm glad to have you guys. Praying for all of our other laborers and the truth love network who couldn't be with us tonight being called back to church. Just spending time with their family and other ministries.

We love our all of our brothers in the middle of network and the laborers podcast. Thankful for all that they're doing. Thankful for you guys and all that you're doing. So, let's jump back into this covenant theology.

We had a good conversation about Baptism from the covenant theology perspective. We're on our last. Several questions. Can we get through all of them tonight? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe we can.

We can we can try to do the best we can. It will probably take longer with more of us here.

Maybe we have a chance if we hit one on eschatology without some other people in there. They're gonna be upset be sad. Maybe they bring that one back.

You're on mail, right? Yes, okay.

We well, we do have a variety with us tonight then. Got one post and two. I'm ill. I Thought you were historic.

No, you were. I'm ill. Oh.

Okay. All right back and forth. I'm a little unfair.

It's not as diverse as I thought it was. Okay. All right. Well, at least we have one correct theology in the group tonight. Number seven number seven. How does. And. And this one. I come into this situation in my mind even as because.

Some of you may know that on the truth and love podcast Dan and I and now Claude are working through reformed covenant theology book by Harrison Perkins and.

I.

Really want to make the distinction because Of course in this particular one. I've said I brought out the fact that there there's new covenant theology Presbyterian form of new covenant theology Baptist layer of covenant theology, but The real opposition comes with the other side which is dispensationalism and Some of these things that are brought out.

I know that Even though I didn't know I never heard the term before I feel like I guess I grew up Dispensationalist and I think for you you were dispensationalist at one time. Yeah, I feel like you know, I believe some of these things already as a dispensationalist so some of the the the area that I would like to focus on as we talk about covenant theology if you know if we can make that distinction is Where those differences are also with dispensationalism When Because a lot of this stuff is just would be familiar to me as a dispensationalist so the question is how does each theology address the concept of federal headship, especially in the relation to Adam and Christ and How does this influence their view of? covenantal relationships so it correct me if I'm wrong, but a Dispensationalist would say that we we are born with a sin nature which comes from Adam Troy would would a dispensationalist use the term federal head.

Maybe not in that in that Specific language right now one that was studied in theology. Like I have no doubt that John MacArthur would would say yes, we have a federal head. That terminology is not as not as used in the camps that That I was in but the message of you're you're born in Adam and you must be born again into Christ.

That you are either in Adam or in Christ was painted very Specifically like that, you know, they they believe the concept of federal headship. Maybe without you know without teaching the name of it. And so yeah Dispensationalist would be right here with us on this on this question.

So if you were if you could think either one of you. Where would be the distinction with the covenant theologian. Versus a dispensational theologian when it comes to a federal head. I think the.

Distinction would be more or less in the continuity of that federal headship. Because when you get into the practical components of covenant theology There's more or less this idea of headship in the home.

This idea that there are blessings from God bestowed through the family unit. There's kind of this trickle-down system. I've seen it illustrated with different umbrellas. And I don't think that's necessarily how dispensationalism Looks at it is that is a continuing model.

Would I be.

Correct in explaining that one Troy. I. I've seen the umbrella in a dispensational church, right? First you have God and then you have that the head of household and then you have the wife and then you have the children.

Down there. I've seen that same model being used.

In.

Dispensational churches. Okay, and. And so. But but the distinction. I think the distinction here because all of us are gonna say because it. Let's just put it. Put it plainly. This is a biblical thing, right?

Like this is not something that.

Covenantal.

Theologians come to that's different. It's just whenever you read Romans 5 whenever you read 1st Corinthians 15 whenever you read, you know, you're going to see this Very painted very specifically. And so if you're if you're reading your Bible trying to stick it together This is not a little topic.

This isn't something sitting way over here and Like it's laid out pretty hardcore that you are either in Adam or you are in Christ and so I think the way that we make it work throughout redemption history is Where there's going to be the difference in it.

So Go ahead. Yeah, I was just gonna say to the dispensational. There we go. Look. This is just a truth throughout all time Adam sinned, you know, and We're we're born after that From that sinful nature.

We we all have Adam sin nature and we need to be reborn. Again, that's where they would see the the little bit of discontinuity right there between the Testaments. Now I would somewhat agree that there's a discontinuity in between the the Testament at least more than a Presbyterian would.

Nonetheless.

You know, I think how we get back to Adam is really where our conversation is. Or for our differences, but whether or not everyone believes it. I think we're we're all right there together.

So so maybe the question could be directed this way so when we talk about Adam and his federal headship we we have to think about and talk about That first covenant which was the covenant of works with Adam and God said you to Obey do this and you will live and of course He he had a goal for that living a place for Adam to go.

And we can talk about that later, but but that covenant of works was was with Adam. And then the distanceationalist He's going to say that God Relates with man in different dispensations throughout time whereas the the covenantal theologian is Is going to say?

God had a covenant with Adam the covenant work and he was to obey. So, where does. Maybe that's where a distinction can be made. That that covenant of works Was broken by Adam I guess I don't know if reinstituted Or picked up either way it was perfectly Executed by Christ that covenant of work.

So so maybe there's a distinction there with the covenant of works versus a dispensation. Do you see any distinction there.

Yes. So dispensationalist is going to go look that that first time before Adam sin. They're gonna call it the age of the age of innocence in the first dispensation creation right up until the fall and then right after the fall you're gonna have the it's called the anti diluvian period right pre-flood or.

Some some call it the dispensation of the patriarchs where you have the headship of the family Being the leader and it's being passed down that way through oral tradition you know, and that's where you get your all the way up until Abraham and so but as far as how we would see it covenantally right as a 1689 federalist would go that that covenant of works.

That that Adam did not keep. Right, you know, don't eat of the of the tree right? Yeah be. You'll keep the law. We would see it being Republished essentially, I'm gonna use the word republished some might have a have a thing with that language.

But Republic republished in the Abrahamic Covenant and there keep circumcision and the ultimate circumcision is the circumcision of the heart being a picture of the regeneration and then even going on to a republication of the covenant of works into Moses and a republication of the covenant of works into the David line all the way up until Christ fulfills that covenant of works.

And so it's the way that we're we're stair-stepping whenever we're looking at the transition of this covenant of works throughout our Old Testament we're seeing it as something that is that is continually being a problem right the fact that They're in Adam and they cannot be righteous enough that they can't.

That that they're not able to achieve salvation in and of themselves. Did that kind of touch on what you were looking for.

Yeah, that was good. And then and then now with the with the Presbyterian Baptist and and then also a new covenant theologian, which Maybe could fall in either one of those camps. The covenant of works Post fall before Christ.

Is there a distinction between the three different or the different views of covenant theology and What the purpose was of the covenant of works in that period of time? Was it was it the same or. That's the first part of that question again, so the covenant works post Adam post Paul and pre Christ What was the purpose of the covenant of works, how did how did that work itself out?

During that time period are there distinctions between a Presbyterian view reform Baptist view and a new covenant theology. View on the on the purpose of the covenant works during that period. I.

Believe continuity, I. I can't speak for new covenant theology I don't know enough about it to speak authoritatively on it at all or.

A.

Progressive covenantal ism is another one that I've heard. But the Presbyterian and the Baptist are gonna see it as two different things, right. They're gonna see the covenant of grace starting at Genesis 3 15 and Carrying on through throughout it right the same covenant of grace just different administrations to where Reformed Baptist covenant theology 1689 federalism is going to say no.

This is a republication of the covenant of works because it was never fulfilled. And so it's the covenant of works purpose was to to show God's God's standard right. God has a standard and that that standard is perfection and That standard wasn't wasn't met in Genesis 3 that standard wasn't met in Genesis 17 that standard wasn't met and you know, we can go on throughout all the covenants and so it's.

We're seeing more of the greater picture Unfold as we go through our old our Old Testament, right? We're seeing more of the the standard of God and and the promise which is coming alongside of it. Because always with this with this standard right with the condition of what God was requiring was a promise of.

There's a seed coming that is going to fulfill this. Right. There is one that that is coming that will you know obtain this this this righteousness and There is this that King that will rule on the throne forever.

That is coming. He will keep it. And so that's a little bit of the difference in between the presby's and and.

1689 guys, so would you say. This statement was true. Concerning the covenant of works the the promise of God stood obey and live because we have Christ who came and He it was just unable. No one was able to do it up until Christ.

He was able to do it and brought life.

Yes, what like well whenever we see one of your sons to Abraham, you know one of your seed your seed will do this. He doesn't know which one it is. It became obvious. It wasn't Isaac. You know, it became and then you get even down to Jacob and Esau and even though Jacob was the promised lineage.

That that God reconfirmed that one of your seed will do this we we knew very quickly it wasn't Jacob. You know. And so it was the that's where you get that geopolitical that that family the Abrahamic family.

Coming out and it just keeps getting more and more specific all the way down to the the root of Jesse. Right one of David's offsprings, you know from Judah and. You know, and so it kind of keeps you know, it's one of your seeds.

I'm making the promise with you. It's one of one of your offspring. That will be the one that will be able to keep it and they don't all know it's it's obey and. Yeah, yeah.

Do you want to anything?

No, I think he knocked it out of the park right there. I Know we talked about this a little bit because the Savoy Declaration leans towards the 1689 on that point right there and that's kind of where I fit myself is.

This idea.

What was that make the jump? Come on over now? I'm good.

Water.

Completely lost my train of thought here. Oh, I'm sorry.

Well, why you're thinking about that? I'll move on down to the second part of the question when it comes to federal headship and how it how it affects our Horizontal relationships. So do you think that there is?

There's more involved in. Well, first of all, is there federal headship in our Horizontal relationships and and if so is is there more involved in federal headship? Headship in those relationships other than just mirroring Christ and representing Christ to point to Christ.

How does it work itself out in our horizontal relationships? I've been talking a lot Tyler. Do you want to go?

Sure, even though I'm not married. I'll take a swing at it. And I was. The way I see it is that there is a version of covenanted relationships That continues today that this is this does reflect some things in how we pursue Relationships because it starts with God right that that's the whole thing with the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace is it starts with God starts with how Adam related to God.

And how God related to Adam that that Adam walked with God in the cool of the day it starts here with this relationship and from that We start extrapolating how we relate to each other because we bear God's image were made in his image.

And so there's a component to where the way we approach relationships does Take influence and is informed by the fact that we're bearing God's image does take Influence from the God whose image we bear and so the general view within more covenantal Filters is that marriage is a covenant.

It's not the covenant, but marriage is a covenant between two parties that is given by God. That's that's why Husbands and wives wear rings. It is a it's an outward sign of that covenant. And so the idea with on One hand you do have it mirroring Christ and his church.

So there's this this beautiful thing that is embodied by the joining of two into one that to become one but more importantly this does Draw from God's relation to Adam. This does draw from how God designed relationships to work.

Because we are built for covenants, I think.

Yeah, I think I think I think marriage is a covenant.

Somebody can give more life experience to back that one up. I'm speaking purely from theory.

Well, I was thinking about another covenant. That honestly may be going the way of the dinosaur. Which is which is I think sad, right? But whenever someone joins a a local church right, there's there is a Church covenant right in a way, you know, it's something not to be taken lightly and off the top of my head, I can't I can't necessarily think of a Scripture in itself that would you know, here's here's two verses that that explain this, right?

We have the church as the Bride of Christ, you know, we can stream a picture forsake not the assembling of yourselves together. You know, we can we can go, you know those verses and kind of paint an overall picture.

But whenever you become a member of a local church you become responsible for that church you become Accountable to that church and then that church becomes accountable to you. It's a it's a two-way a two-way system right that they Because it's not a divine covenant divine covenant is completely One-sided it is God to man.

We we put no Limitations on it, but we in a in a church covenant situation. You are saying I'm gonna be faithful here I'm gonna be a participant. I'm going to you know Seek to love my brothers and sisters have that unity be a member of this body.

All right, like we're all members of the greater body but more specifically I cannot minister to To Tyler up here or Rob over here because there's several hours of driving in between us. You know as much as I would love to.

I had a brother, you know call me earlier today needed some help went over help them. He's 20 minutes down the road. I can do that. I can be that aid to the local body here and. So that's really what you're what you're getting into you're saying I accept this and and they've accepted it as well if I need something.

You know, there's there's going to be somebody in the local church that will say how can I help you? I actually almost get weekly Weekly messages. Hey, is there is there anything we can you know, we can help you with, you know I'm praying about you.

You know, I love you guys and it's and it's my family.

Yeah.

Where are folks getting getting it wrong or getting and getting it right when it comes to this idea of federal headship in marriage? Because I think I think there was a swing to it becoming more popular federal headship.

When it comes to marriage the context of marriage I don't know if you guys have noticed that or seen that.

It's been very interesting to watch the dialogue as an unmarried man who's never been on a date. To see the the culture shift from happy wife happy life to you are the head of the household. And There are some people that Articulate federal headship in the home with more tact than others that are a bit more gracious in their rhetoric Than others.

And there are other people that it sounds almost Authoritarian that you kind of rule over the home with an iron fist and you tell your wife what to vote for. You tell your wife what we're doing today and Like I said, it's been interesting to watch the dialogue from both ends of that spectrum.

Because you do have the one side where there's no headship and there's none of that that everything is equal. It's all Egalitarian and complimentary whatever you want to Call that. And there's not really a set design from God as to how this is supposed to function.

It's just whatever works works. And then you've got the opposite end of that where it's almost like we take that to an Unhealthy level and it does become something that can be very hurtful something that maybe puts too much on On the husband maybe puts them on a bit of a pedestal if that makes sense.

That you are Christ in your home or your Moses. Am I tracking it all?

You are Right on the head. I.

Was gonna ask this question. Do you think this would be? Biblical to say. When it comes to federal headship in the marriage to say to the husband.

Remember.

You are not the Christ you are to be like Christ.

Yes, I think that's that sounds like a helpful distinction I.

Think it's important as. You know since we're getting into this to just kind of define some terms for this for if anybody's watching and going what in the World are they talking about? You've got a a thing.

I'll start over here. It's backwards. You've got your egalitarians, right and these are gonna be the men and the women are completely 100 equal and most the times they lean more towards the women makes all the decisions.

This is your happy wife happy life. Yes, dear as you wish type situation broad brush just real quick and then in the middle you have a Completarianism and this is this is where I would I would be and so it is as.

As the man of the relationship, I am the head of household my wife Has Has just been look you you're the guy you're going to make the spiritual decisions in this household. You you know, you you you got to be the one to make the decisions on these things.

We still talk about it. Right, she is my she is my help mate this is what the The Genesis creation says it says, you know, she's our helpmate and it's not about getting a sandwich because later on we have God being our helpmate.

Same Hebrew word used in the same text. Same type of context, right? So since God is our helper. She is she is my helper right and what it means is just help her. Doesn't mean it's you know, yada yada.

Yeah. Anyways, so you've got this the male as the the federal head of the household, you know and saying hey look. This is this is the general view. And then on the other side you have the patriarchal and these could range anywhere.

It's a spectrum. And some of your patriarchal guys would fit in with the complementarians. You know and it it gets messy but your patriarchal is the husband. Final say on on all of it. I've heard some that say it really graciously to where I go.

Yes. Amen, and then I've heard some where. It is not and it is that is not. Not not good.

Yeah, let me ask you this question then we'll move on to the next question. Because you brought up egalitarianism you brought up complementarianism and a lot of the excuse or reasoning behind Women stepping in whether it be the home or whether it be the church equally and in this context It's lack of male leadership.

So, well, what would you say if we if we hold to federal headship being biblical done correctly and We lean heavily toward complementarianism male leadership that model. What it what happens when. What do you do when there's lack of male leadership in the home?

Or in the church. How would you counsel that?

That's I Struggle with that one because because it's almost heartbreaking if if you want a good marriage a man's got to be a man and It is what it is. You can't be and It's sad to say in our culture. There's a lot of boys and I and I say those terms and I'm not sure if it I Want it to convey the meaning right.

A man Takes care of his house. A man goes out works makes makes provision. My wife also has a job You know, but a man is is going to be providing he's going to set his family up, you know. He's not gonna be skipping out on work days to play Xbox.

You know what I mean going out with the boys. Getting drunk it you have to be. The ultimate status of our marriage is to picture the love of Christ with the church and if you're not if you're not looking at At that as your goal then Then it's not gonna work.

It's not gonna work. You don't have a biblical marriage and it's and it's not gonna work out.

And.

And.

So that that's really where I think it has come where there's been this lack of men that that want to be men and I think it's a cultural thing in our in our day in our day and age and it's sad because there's there's some people where it's just.

That dude needs to grow up, you know, here he is. He's he's almost 40 and he's trying to act like he's 20 going out and spending the family's rent money on rims I mean you you just name it and It it's sad, but they're.

He's being a poor federal head.

Yeah, what do you think Tyler in the lack of in the absence of male leadership home church?

What's your counsel? I think like Troy said that that is a hard one to work through when you're talking about just in the context of marriage that it that is a hard one to work through is. Think I get yeah again.

I'm not married. I don't have I don't have a dog in this fight. Everything I would say is theory. But there does seem to be this delicate balance with submission paired with When the husband is not is not leading and.

So there's there's a bit of a delicate balance there. I think that does reflect in the church sometimes that If I don't like where the elders are going does do I make myself the pastor. Or is there a component where I need to submit not only to where they're leading but what God is allowing.

And that that's that's tough. That's not always ideal. It's not. That's not something that book that makes me feel good about myself and builds up pride. That is okay, this is where God has me and I'm gonna have to be okay with that.

Boy, let me let me take this from a 50-pound bag of concrete to 80 pound bag of concrete. Okay.

I'm there's a lot of those by the way.

But one is a little heavier than the other. Yes.

So.

We all live by. I think most of us would live by. The scripture that that teaches us. You know, we would honor obey the government.

Until.

It asked us to do something That the Lord wouldn't have us to do or we must obey God rather than me.

So.

Would that apply in the marriage context with with the woman where where. The husband? You know is is not a Christian. He is not. He is opposed to The wife leading the children or the family in Bible reading Christian teaching.

I'm just curious how that Scripture would apply. I must obey God rather than man in that context because even though this is Marriage is ordained by God Mary and we're taught how to live in that marriage.

Um.

Does this scripture of I must obey God? How do I honor my husband? If I'm a wife and also honor God by saying I honor God over me.

This is one of those. A lot of people put the cart in front of the horse.

And.

So. When me and my wife were dating.

Alright.

It was very early on. It was like three months in we started talking about Expectations and I think it was the healthiest thing for our marriage. There was no black and gray it like there was no there was no gray.

It was black and white of look if you know, this is the case. I have a son. I expect you Be a mother. You know, this is this is our expectations, you know, she expects me to to work To you know labor for a good wage.

She expects me to come home. We we laid it all out mmm, and and all in in a Christian foundation. So now if you have done that right if you were both believers. You should be able to Talk to the other one and go excuse me, you know and and not in a fight.

This cannot be a fight right because then you get it you get pride in the way it has to be done. Very graciously, you can't be mad. You can't go, you know screaming you are. It does not work that way.

You have to Come at that very graciously and go look out. I See this in the word right right here. We can go to we go to 1st Corinthians In or 11 we can go to 2nd Peter 1 or 3. You know, even as Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him Lord that's one a lot of people throw out there Patriarchal as.

You know, and then you just get into this this the spit fest you have to come together. And essentially say hey look this is why I want to do this as a believer. I think that you know, you should I Think that you should be teaching our kids more Bible.

I want you to be a godly example here. You know if your wife is watching Joel Osteen all the time. You know and you're trying to disciple her through this they're like hey I would I would. You know, I really don't want you Showing them Kenneth Copeland videos while I'm at work, right?

Like what let's not buy the Kenneth Copeland curriculum. There has to be understanding in here. Somewhere but as with everything in a marriage it has to be done done with grace and with love. She has to submit To the husband as the church submits to Jesus and The husband has to be willing to give himself for her and love as Christ died for the church.

No one's got an easy road here, right because the picture is The the the bride that serves Christ and Christ who gave himself for the bride it's. So when there is that contention it has to be if you're unequally yoked.

There are scriptures that we can get into on that and it is if The unbeliever is pleased to have the believer around. And then you pray you submit that you may win them with your godly conduct. And and so that really gets into a whole nother can of worms, but there's plenty stuff about this in the Word of God.

That's right.

It's almost like God wrote it and God wrote it because we were dumb, I mean, I really think so.

There was a book that I enjoyed when I when I dug into it. I want to dig back into it, but Yeah, it's right up there church power. It's just called polity. It was put together by nine mark and It's a like nine marks.

I don't see. It's a compilation of Historic Baptist documents and one of the things that that I like in there when I was I was interested in this subject and what our forefathers thought about it. This doesn't of course it every scenario and there's no way we could hit every scenario.

But I so I appreciate what you said about the Bible Speaks to this and we can go to the scripture on that.

But.

In one of those historical documents that I read it talked about how when a when the husband is not present and it may have been in one of those circumstances where the husband died the The the wife the mother in the home would seek out the closest male relative or biblical leadership in the home.

And and I thought in in principle what a what a great idea, you know, if if a woman seeks to be biblical Then she will seek out that Male male headship male leadership. That's a little bit like Ruth, doesn't it?

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yep, I. That's wise. You got to have someone that you're gonna listen to you got to have someone that that that you can bounce things off of your situation off of that's. That's that's biblical. Mm-hmm.

That's not tied to the situation, you know.

If.

Me and my wife are just you know, man at each other all the time, you know. I'll you know, I feel the Liberty and going to my pastor because we're small congregation. I can just talk to my pastor whenever I love it.

You know and be like look pastor Claude. You know, I've you know done this and and him go, you know, look Troy, you know. You stuck your foot in your mouth. Sometimes they're just you know. Dripping faucets and you might need to go out to the desert for a minute.

I don't know. You know, but hey whatever the situation may be and a woman to have that as well that's that's very Very, you know wise and not yes, man. Yeah, we we all surround ourself with yes men. That is unhealthy.

For a guy to go up with your boys that you're with at work and then go. Oh, I can't believe she'd do that. Yeah, you're in the right. You should kick her out, you know, or you know. Women joining up together and saying, you know, I told you he wasn't worth nothing.