Covenant Theology part 4

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Cling to the cross then put both arms around it Hold to the crucified and never let him go

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I'm afresh to the cross at this moment and rest there now and forever

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Then with the power of God resting upon you go forth and preach the cross

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Welcome to the laborers podcast tonight. We're gonna be discussing and be back in the discussion of covenant

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Theology covenant theology part 4 for us reform covenant theology

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Presbyterian Baptist New Covenant theology Hopefully we can touch on all aspects of that stick around with us as we continue the conversation

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Welcome to the laborers podcast, which is a part of the truth in love

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Welcome back. The comment line is open We would love to know that you are watching or listening.

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You have a question or critique We're open to that too. If you're listening live watching live or later Let us know we'd love to hear from you

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Tyler from bread of the word Troy from the humble Baptist podcast. How are you guys doing? Doing good doing good doing good.

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Happy to be here. Good deal. Good deal Well, I'm glad to have you guys Praying for all of our other laborers and the truth love

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Network who couldn't be with us tonight being called back to church Just spending time with their family and other ministries

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All of our brothers in the network and the laborers podcast thankful for all that they're doing thankful for you guys and all that you're doing

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So, let's jump back into this covenant theology we had a good conversation about Baptism from the covenant theology perspective.

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We're on our last Several questions Can we get through all of them tonight?

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I don't know. I don't know. Maybe we can We can we can try to do the best we can

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It will probably take longer with more of us here Maybe we have a chance, but if we hit one on eschatology without some other people in there, they're gonna be upset be sad

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They'd be like bring that one back You're a mill, right? Yes. Okay We well, we do have a variety with us tonight.

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Yeah got one post and two I'm ill I thought you were historic

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No, you were I'm ill. Oh Okay. All right back and forth.

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I'm a little unfair It's not as diverse as I thought it was. Okay. All right.

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At least we have one correct theology in the group Number seven number seven how does and and this one

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I come into this Situation at my mind even as because some of you may know that on the truth and love podcast

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Dan and I and now Claude are working through reformed covenant theology book by Harrison Perkins and I really want to make the distinction because Of course in this particular one.

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I've said I brought out the fact that there there's new covenant theology Presbyterian form of new covenant theology

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Baptist layer of covenant theology, but The real opposition comes with the other side which is dispensationalism and Some of these things that are brought out.

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I know that Even though I didn't know I never heard the term before I feel like I guess

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I grew up Dispensationalist and I think for you you were dispensationalist at one time I Feel like you know,

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I believe some of these things already as a dispensationalist so some of the the

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The area that I would like to focus on as we talk about covenant theology if you know if we can make that distinction is

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Where those differences are also with dispensationalism When Because a lot of this stuff is just would be familiar to me as A dispensationalist.

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So the question is how does each theology address the concept of federal headship? especially in the relation to Adam and Christ and How does this influence their view of?

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covenantal relationships so correct me if I'm wrong, but a dispensationalist would say that we

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We are born with a sin nature Which comes from Adam? Troy would would a dispensationalist use the term federal head?

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Maybe not in that in that Specific language right now one that was studied in theology

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Like I have no doubt that John MacArthur would would say yes We have a federal head that terminology is not as not as used in the camps that That I was in but the message of you're you're born in Adam and you must be born again into Christ That you are either in Adam or in Christ was painted very

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Specifically like that, you know, they they believe the concept of federal headship Maybe without you know without teaching the name of it.

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And so yeah Dispensationalist would be right here with us on this on this question

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So if you were if you could think either one of you where would be the distinction with the covenant theologian versus a

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Dispensational theologian when it comes to a federal headship. I think the

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Distinction would be more or less in the continuity of that federal headship Because when you get into the practical components of covenant theology

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There's more or less this idea of headship in the home This idea that there are blessings from God bestowed through the family unit

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There's kind of this trickle -down system. I've seen it illustrated with different umbrellas and I don't think that's necessarily how

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Dispensationalism looks at it is that is a continuing model Would I be correct in explaining that one

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Troy? I've seen the umbrella in a dispensational church, right? first you have

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God and then you have That the head of household and then you have the wife and then you have the children down there

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I've seen that same model being used in dispensational churches

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Okay and and so but but the distinction I think the distinction here because all of us are gonna say because Let's just put it put it plainly.

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This is a biblical thing, right? Like this is not something that Covenantal Theologians come to that's different.

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It's just whenever you read Romans 5 whenever you read First Corinthians 15 whenever you read, you know, you're going to see this very

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Painted very specifically and so if you're if you're reading your

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Bible trying to stick it together This is not a little topic this isn't something sitting way over here and Like it's laid out pretty hardcore that you are either in Adam or you are in Christ And so I think the way that we make it work throughout redemption history is

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Where there's going to be the difference in it So Is just a truth throughout all time

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Adam sinned, you know, and we're we're born after that From that sinful nature.

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We we all have Adam sin nature and we need to be reborn Again, that's where they would see the the little bit of discontinuity right there between the

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Testaments Now I would somewhat agree that there's a discontinuity in Between the the

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Testament at least more than a Presbyterian would Nonetheless You know,

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I think how we get back to Adam is really where our conversation is Or for our differences, but whether or not everyone believes it.

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I think we're we're all right there together So so maybe the question could be directed this way so when we talk about Adam and his federal headship we we have to think about and talk about That first covenant which was the covenant of works with Adam and God said you to Obey do this and you will live and of course

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He he had a goal for that living a place for Adam to go And we can talk about that later, but but that covenant of works was was with Adam And then the distanceationalist

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He's going to say that God Relates with man in different dispensations throughout time whereas the the covenantal theologian is is going to say

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God had a covenant with Adam the covenant work and he was to obey So, where does

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Maybe that's where a distinction can be made That that covenant of works

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Was broken by Adam I Guess I don't know if reinstituted

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Or picked up Either way it was perfectly

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Executed by Christ that covenant of work So so maybe there's a distinction there with the covenant of works versus a dispensation

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Do you see any distinction there Yes So dispensationalist is going to go look that that first time before Adam sin

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They're gonna call it the age of the age of innocence in the first dispensation creation right up until the fall and then right after the fall you're gonna have the it's called the antediluvian period right pre -flood or Some some call it the dispensation of the patriarchs where you have the headship of the family

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Being the leader and it's being passed down that way through oral tradition you know, and that's where you get your all the way up until Abraham and so but as far as how we would see it covenantally right as a 1689 federalist would go that that covenant of works

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That that Adam did not keep right, you know, don't eat of the of the tree right?

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Yeah be You'll keep the law We would see it being

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Republished essentially. I'm gonna use the word republished some might have a Have a thing with that language

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But Republic republished in the Abrahamic Covenant and there keep circumcision and the ultimate circumcision is the circumcision of the heart being a picture of the regeneration and then even going on to a republication of the covenant of works into Moses and a republication of the covenant of works into the

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David line all the way up until Christ fulfills that covenant of works

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And so it's the way that we're we're stair -stepping whenever we're looking at the transition of this covenant of works throughout our

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Old Testament we're seeing it as something that is that is continually being a problem right the fact that They're in Adam and they cannot be righteous enough that they can't

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That that they're not able to achieve salvation in and of themselves Did that kind of touch on what you were looking for yeah, that was good and then and then now with the with the

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Presbyterian Baptist and and then also a new covenant theologian which Maybe could fall in either one of those camps the covenant of works

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Post fall before Christ Is there a distinction between the three different or the different views of covenant theology in What the purpose was of the covenant of works in that period of time?

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was it was it the same or How do you Ask the first part of that question again

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So the covenant works post Adam post Paul and pre Christ What was the purpose of the covenant of works, how did how did that work itself out?

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During that time period are there distinctions between a Presbyterian view reform

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Baptist view and a new covenant theology View on the on the purpose of the covenant works during that period.

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I Believe the continuity I I can't speak for new covenant theology

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I don't know enough about it to speak authoritatively on it at all or a

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Progressive covenantal ism is another one that I've heard But the

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Presbyterian and the Baptist are gonna see it as two different things right they're gonna see the covenant of grace starting at Genesis 315 and Carrying on through throughout it right the same covenant of grace just different administrations to where Reform Baptist covenant theology 1689 federalism is going to say no

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This is a republication of the covenant of works because it was never fulfilled And so it's the covenant of works purpose was to to show

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God's God's standard right God has a standard and that that standard is perfection and That standard wasn't wasn't met in Genesis 3 that standard wasn't met in Genesis 17 that standard wasn't met and you know, we can go on throughout all the covenants and so it's

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We're seeing more of the greater picture Unfold as we go through our old our

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Old Testament, right? We're seeing more of the the standard of God and and the promise which is coming alongside of it

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Because always with this with this standard right with the condition of what

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God was requiring was a promise of There's a seed coming that is going to fulfill this

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Right. There is one that that is coming that will you know obtain this this this righteousness and There is this that King that will rule on the throne forever.

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That is coming. He will keep it And so that's a little bit of the difference in between the presby's and and 1689 guys.

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So would you say this statement was true concerning the covenant of works the promise of God stood obey and live because we have

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Christ who came and He it was just unable no one was able to do it up until Christ.

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He was able to do it and brought life Yes, what like well whenever we see one of your sons to Abraham, you know one of your seed your seed will do this

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He doesn't know which one it is. It became obvious. It wasn't Isaac You know it became and then you get even down to Jacob and Esau and even though Jacob was the promised lineage

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That that God reconfirmed that one of your seed will do this we we knew very quickly it wasn't

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Jacob You know, and so it was the that's where you get that geopolitical that that family the

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Abrahamic family Coming out and it just keeps getting more and more specific all the way down to the the root of Jesse Right one of David's offsprings, you know from Judah and You know, and so it kind of keeps you know, it's one of your seeds.

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I'm making the promise with you It's one of one of your offspring. That will be the one that will be able to keep it and they don't all know it's it's obey and Yeah, because yeah

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Do you want to anything No, I think he knocked it out of the park right there

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I know we talked about this a little bit because the Savoy Declaration leans Towards the 1689 on that point right there and that's kind of where I fit myself is

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This idea What was that make the jump? Come on over? Nah, I'm good water

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Completely lost my train of thought here. Oh, I'm sorry Well, why you're thinking about that?

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I'll move on down to the second part of the question when it comes to federal headship and how it how it affects our

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Horizontal relationships. So do you think that there is? there's more involved in Well, first of all

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Is there federal headship in our horizontal relationships? And and if so is is there more involved in federal headship?

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headship in those relationships other than just Mirroring Christ and Representing Christ to point to Christ How does how does it work itself out in our horizontal relationships?

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I've been talking a lot Tyler. Do you want to go? Sure, even though I'm not married. I'll take a swing at it

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And I was The way I see it is that there is a version of covenanted relationships

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That continues today that this is this does reflect some things in how we pursue relationships because it starts with God Right that that's the whole thing with the covenant of works in the covenant of grace is it starts with God?

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starts with how Adam related to God And how God related to Adam that that Adam walked with God in the cool of the day it starts here with this relationship and from that We start extrapolating how we relate to each other because we bear

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God's image were made in his image And so there's a component to where the way we approach relationships does

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Take influence and is informed by the fact that we're bearing God's image does take

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Influence from the God whose image we bear and so the general view within more covenantal

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Filters is that marriage is a covenant? It's not the covenant, but marriage is a covenant between two parties that is given by God That's that's why

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Husbands and wives wear rings. It is a it's an outward sign of that covenant and so that the idea with on One hand you do have it mirroring

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Christ and his church So there's this this beautiful thing that is embodied by the joining of two into one that to become one but more importantly this does

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Draw from God's relation to Adam This does draw from how

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God designed relationships to work Because we are built for covenants. I think yeah,

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I think I think I think marriage is a covenant Somebody can give more life experience to back that one up.

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I'm speaking purely from theory Well, I was thinking about another covenant

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That honestly may be going the way of the dinosaur Which is which is

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I think sad, right? But Whenever someone joins a a local church right, there's there is a

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Church covenant right in a way, you know, it's something not to be taken lightly and Off the top of my head.

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I can't I can't necessarily think of a Scripture in itself that would you know, here's here's two verses that that explain this, right?

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We have the church as the bride of Christ, you know, we can stream a picture forsake not the assembling of yourselves together

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You know, we can we can go, you know, those verses and kind of paint an overall picture

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But whenever you become a member of a local church you become responsible for that church you become

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Accountable to that church and then that church becomes accountable to you it's a it's a two -way a two -way system, right that they

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Because it's not a divine covenant divine covenant is completely one -sided it is

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God to man We we put no Limitations on it, but we in a in a church covenant situation

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You are saying I'm gonna be faithful here. I'm gonna be a participant

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I'm going to you know Seek to love my brothers and sisters have that unity be a member of this body

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All right, like we're all members of the greater body But more specifically I cannot minister to To Tyler up here or Rob over here because there's several hours of driving in between us

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You know as much as I would love to I had a brother, you know, call me earlier today needed some help went over help them

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He's 20 minutes down the road. I can do that. I can be that aid to the local body here

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And and so that's really what you're what you're getting into you're saying I accept this and and they've accepted it as well

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If I need something, you know, there's there's going to be somebody in the local church that will say how can

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I help you? I actually almost get weekly Weekly messages. Hey, is there is there anything we can you know, we can help you with, you know,

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I'm praying about you You know, I love you guys and it's and it's my family

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Yeah Where are folks getting getting it wrong or getting and getting it right when it comes to this idea of federal headship in marriage

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Because I I think I think there was a swing to it becoming more popular federal headship

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When it comes to marriage the context of marriage I Don't know if you guys have noticed that or seen that It's been very interesting to watch the dialogue as an unmarried man who's never been on a date

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To see the the culture shift from happy wife happy life to you are the head of the household and There are some people that articulate federal headship in the home

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With more tact than others that are a bit more gracious in their rhetoric Than others and there are other people that it sounds almost

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Authoritarian that you kind of rule over the home with an iron fist and you tell your wife what to vote for you tell your wife what we're doing today and Like I said, it's been interesting to watch the dialogue from both ends of that spectrum

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Because you do have the one side where there's no headship and there's none of that that everything is equal.

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It's all Egalitarian and complimentary whatever you want to Call that and there's not really a set design from God as to how this is supposed to function

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It's just whatever works works and then you've got the opposite end of that where it's almost like we take that to an

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Unhealthy level and it does become something that can be very hurtful something that maybe puts too much on On the husband maybe puts them on a bit of a pedestal if that makes sense

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That you are Christ in your home or your Moses Am I tracking it all?

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You are Right on the head. I Was gonna ask this question.

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Do you think this would be? biblical to say When it comes to federal headship in the marriage to say to the husband remember

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You are not the Christ you are to be like Christ Yes, I think that's that sounds like a helpful distinction

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I Think it's important as You know since we're getting into this to just kind of define some terms for this for if anybody's watching and going what in the

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World are they talking about? You've got a a thing. I'll start over here. It's backwards

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You've got your egalitarians, right and these are gonna be the men and the women are completely 100 % equal and most the times they lean more towards the women makes all the decisions.

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This is your happy wife happy life Yes, dear as you wish type situation broad brush just real quick and then in the middle you have a

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Completarianism and this is this is where I would I would be and so it is as As the man of the relationship,

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I am the head of household my wife Has Has just been look you you're the guy you're going to make the spiritual decisions in this household

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You you know, you you you got to be the one to make the decisions on these things.

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We still talk about it Right, she is my she is my help mate this is what the

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The Genesis creation says it says, you know, she's our helpmate and it's not about getting a sandwich because later on we have

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God being our helpmate Same Hebrew word used in the same text

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Same type of context, right? So since God is our helper She is she is my helper right and what it means is just help her

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Doesn't mean it's you know, yada. Yada. Yeah Anyways, so you've got this the male as the the federal head of the household, you know and saying hey look this is this is the general view and then on the other side you have the

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Patriarchal and these could range anywhere it's a spectrum and Some of your patriarchal guys would fit in with the complementarians, you know

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It it gets messy but your patriarchal is the husband Final say on on all of it

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I've heard some that say it really graciously to where I go. Yes. Amen, and then I've heard some where It is not and it is that is not

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Not not good Let me ask you this question. Well, then we'll move on to the next question

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Because you brought up egalitarianism you brought up complementarianism and a lot of the excuse or reasoning behind Women stepping in whether it be the home or whether it be the church equally and in this context

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It's lack of male leadership So well, what would you say?

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if we if we hold to federal headship being biblical done correctly and We lean heavily toward complementarianism male leadership that model

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What it what happens when what do you do when? There's lack of male leadership in the home or in the church

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How would you counsel that? That's I Struggle with that one because because it's almost heartbreaking if if you want a good marriage a man's got to be a man and It is what it is.

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You can't be and It's sad to say in our culture. There's a lot of boys and I and I say those terms and I'm not sure if it

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I Want it to convey the meaning right a man?

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Takes care of his house a man goes out works makes makes provision

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My wife also has a job, you know, but but a man is is going to be providing

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He's going to set his family up, you know, he's not gonna be skipping out on work days to play

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Xbox You know what I mean going out with the boys Getting drunk it you have to be

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The ultimate status of our marriage is to picture the love of Christ with the church and if you're not if you're not looking at At that as your goal then

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Then it's not gonna work. It's not gonna work. You don't have a biblical marriage and it's and it's not gonna work out and And so that that's really where I think it has come where there's been this lack of men that that want to be men and I think it's a cultural thing in our in our day in our day and age and it's sad because there's there's some people where it's just That dude needs to grow up, you know, here he is

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He's he's almost 40 and he's trying to act like he's 20 going out and spending the family's rent money on rims

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I mean you you just name it and It it's sad, but they're

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He's being a poor federal head Yeah What do you think

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Tyler in the lack of in the absence of male leadership home church? What's your counsel?

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I think like Troy said that that is a hard one to work through when you're talking about Just in the context of marriage that it that is a hard one to work through is

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I think I get it again. I'm not married. I don't have I don't have a dog in this fights everything I would say is theory

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But there does seem to be this delicate balance with submission paired with When the husband is not is not leading and So there's there's a bit of a delicate balance there.

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I think that does reflect in the church sometimes That's if I don't like where the elders are going does do

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I make myself the pastor Or is there a component where I need to submit not only to where they're leading but what

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God is allowing And that that's that's tough That's not always ideal.

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It's not That's not something that book that makes me feel good about myself and builds up pride.

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That is okay, this is where God has me and I'm gonna have to be okay with that Boy, let me let me take this from a 50 -pound bag of concrete to 80 pound bag concrete.

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Okay I'm there's a lot of those by the way But one is a little heavier than the other.

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Yes So We all live by I think most of us would live by The scripture that that teaches us

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You know, we would honor obey the government until It asked us to do something

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That the Lord wouldn't have us to do or we must obey God rather than me so Would that apply in the marriage context with with the woman where where the husband?

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You know is is not a Christian He is not

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He is opposed to The wife leading the children or the family in Bible reading

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Christian teaching I'm just curious how that Scripture would apply.

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I must obey God rather than man in that context because even though this is

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Marriage is ordained by God Mary and when we're taught how to live in that marriage Does this scripture of I must obey

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God how do I honor my husband if I'm a wife and Also honor

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God by saying I honor God over me This is one of those a lot of people put the cart in front of the horse and So when me and my wife were dating right

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It was very early on It was like three months in we started talking about Expectations and I think it was the healthiest thing for our marriage

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There was no black and gray it like there was no there was no gray It was black and white of look if you know, this is the case.

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I have a son I expect you Be a mother You know, this is this is our expectations, you know, she expects me to work

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To you know labor for a good wage she expects me to come home. We we laid it all out and and all in in a

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Christian foundation So now if you have done that right if you were both believers

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You should be able to Talk to the other one and go excuse me

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You know and and not in a fight this can not be a fight right because then you get it you get pride in The way it has to be done

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Very graciously, you can't be mad. You can't go, you know screaming you are

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It does not work that way You have to come at that very graciously and go look oh

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I See this in the word right right here we can go to we go to 1st

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Corinthians 10 or 11 we can go to 2nd

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Peter 1 or 3 You know, even as Sarah obeyed

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Abraham calling him Lord that's one a lot of people throw out there Patriarchal as You know, and then you just get into this this this bit fest you have to come together

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And essentially say hey, look this is why I want to do this as a believer

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I think that you know, you should I Think that you should be teaching our kids more

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Bible. I want you to be a godly example here You know if your wife is watching

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Joel Osteen all the time You know and you're trying to disciple her through this be like hey,

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I would I would You know, I really don't want you Showing them

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Kenneth Copeland videos while I'm at work, right like what let's not buy the Kenneth Copeland curriculum

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There has to be understanding in here Somewhere but as with everything in marriage, it has to be done done with grace and with love

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She has to submit to the husband as the church submits to Jesus and The husband has to be willing to give himself for her and love as Christ died for the church

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No one's got an easy road here, right because the picture is The the the bride that serves

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Christ and Christ who gave himself for the bride it's So when there is that contention, it has to be if you're unequally yoked

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There are scriptures that we can get into on that and it is if The unbeliever is pleased to have the believer around And then you pray you submit that you may win them with your godly conduct and So that really gets into a whole nother can of worms, but there's plenty stuff about this in the

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Word of God. That's right It's almost like God wrote it and God wrote it because we were dumb

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I mean, I really think so There was a book that I enjoyed when

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I when I dug into it. I want to dig back into it, but Yeah, it's right up there church power.

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It's just called policy. It was put together by nine mark and it's a

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It's a compilation of Historic Baptist documents

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And one of the things that that I like in there when I was I was interested in this subject and what our forefathers thought about it

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This doesn't of course it every scenario and there's no way we could be at every scenario

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But I so I appreciate what you said about the Bible Speaks to this and we can go to the scripture on that But in one of those historical documents that I read it talked about how when a when the husband is not present and it may have been in one of those circumstances where the husband died the

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Though the wife the mother in the home Would seek out the closest male relative for biblical leadership in the home

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And and I thought in in principle what a what a great idea, you know if if a woman seeks to be biblical

40:30

Then she will seek out that male male headship male leadership

40:36

That's a little bit like Ruth, doesn't it? Mm -hmm Yeah Yep, I That's wise you got to have someone that you're gonna listen to you got to have someone that that that you can bounce things off of your situation off of that's

40:56

That's that's biblical. Mm -hmm. That's not tied to the situation, you know if Me and my wife are just you know, man at each other all the time, you know

41:09

I'll you know, I feel the Liberty and going to my pastor because we're small congregation

41:14

I just talk to my pastor whenever I love it You know and be like look pastor

41:20

Claude You know, I've you know done this and and him go, you know, look

41:27

Troy, you know You stuck your foot in your mouth

41:34

Sometimes they're just you know Dripping faucets and you might need to go out to the desert for a minute.

41:40

I don't know You know, but hey whatever the situation may be and a woman to have that as well, that's that's very

41:48

Very, you know wise and not yes, man Yeah, we we all surround ourself with yes men.

41:55

That is unhealthy For a guy to go up with your boys that you're with at work and then go.

42:01

I can't believe she'd do that Yeah, you're in the right. You should kick her out, you know, or you know

42:07

Women joining up together and saying, you know, I told you he wasn't worth nothing It that's never healthy but good biblical counseling from someone that's outside of it

42:19

To challenge you with your own biblical interpretation this situation

42:26

I think that's really wise and I chuckled but it's it's serious and it happens too often and if If we're going to be biblical friends if we're going to be biblical brothers and sisters in Christ If someone comes to us and and this is speaking to the other side

42:44

Somebody is coming to you flip that switch off before that falsehood continues to That just pour out

42:55

Just flip that switch turn it off You can you can listen to different things you can you can be that brother sister

43:04

You can be that friend but Do your best to guide and lead that conversation in a biblical direction?

43:12

Not in one that tears someone else down I think

43:17

I think it's wise to speak to that person as well in this situation So in our last 20 minutes,

43:25

I'm gonna let you guys choose. Well, we'll touch We'll do one more we'll do part five

43:34

This is this seems to be a popular topic. We'll do a part five and what if we don't cover tonight? We'll cover this topic in the next one.

43:41

So we're gonna be talking about the law or we're gonna be talking about eschatology Which one do you guys want to talk about tonight law or eschatology?

43:50

I Want to stay away from eschatology For this one till we get some more brothers on here because that's a that that's a good one and because you know, you've got

44:09

Yeah, because blending your eschatology into your covenant theology Should happen and there are a lot of brothers.

44:18

It's kind of like One of those inconsistent things. We're like, oh well You can be post male and hold that any up any one of them or you can you know?

44:28

Be all male and hold that any one of them, but it gets into that. How can you be consistent?

44:34

You know your it really should It was so interesting one of our one of our brothers in the truth and love network posted today a quote

44:43

Dealing with the kingdom of God and an eschatology and I read it knowing his position was

44:50

Amil from my understanding, but I read the whole thing and I was like I Really feel like I agree with the whole quote here

45:00

But it is true in all male post mill. There's a lot of agreement. So Yeah That there's a lot of agreement with our mail and post mail.

45:09

There's a lot of agreement with our mail and historic pre -mail That is the book that he quoted

45:19

Is actually what we're doing our Sunday night class in So if you go to the

45:27

Reformata Baptist Church YouTube page That's actually gonna be the book that he's working through in that class

45:35

Oh now we know who posted it Uses name I wasn't but I'll throw them out there.

45:42

Hey I'm I'm down for a plug on good teaching. So there you go

45:48

Refromata Baptist Church Sunday evening teaching on covenant theology. Boom 1689 federalism

45:58

Let's look at the law for this last 15 minutes, I know it's a deeper conversation than that but Question nine and ten

46:09

The role of the law in the life of believer and its implications For living and sanctification and then number ten

46:18

How do these different theologies different their understanding of relationship between law and grace particularly in light of the new covenant?

46:26

so how do we view the law and I guess I'm going to specifically say the

46:33

The mosaic law So we view the mosaic law in covenant theology fulfilled

46:41

Okay simply fulfilled It's my personal belief that you cannot read through Galatians and Go.

46:51

Okay. Yeah, the law is still a standard because there's so much though, you know, even I believe it's

46:57

Galatians 3 315 316, you know that the law was up until Christ and so now we do have

47:10

We do have a standard right like we we are this but but nonetheless we are not bound to the letter of the law

47:19

Which what Rob are you are you a theonomist? I Would say that I'll lean that direction

47:28

Okay Just curious because that's where a lot of talking points would come in from there

47:34

But the law in the life of believer we can read our Old Testament we can read the law and go, you know, look this is this is

47:40

God's point on this of You know the transcendent law the the

47:46

Ten Commandments right don't murder don't Christ shows us What what these actually mean and the

47:53

Sermon on the Mount and we can go? Okay. Well this is To live holy and to live sanctified

48:00

You know the these are the things that I'm gonna fight with in my life that I'm gonna try and put this sin to death

48:08

While yet knowing that that Christ fulfilled the law I have his righteousness and That that he paid paid the price for my sin

48:20

We are in the covenant of grace not the covenant of works right There when you first started when you said fulfilled

48:29

Stop hard stop. I was I was viewing you as a new covenant theologian there

48:36

Because I from what I understand in my conversations with guys who hold a new covenant theology. It's you know fulfilled full stop

48:45

There's that line you're talking about. I think you said glory relations and then now that we're in the new covenant

48:50

We we obey Christ. It's all through Christ We view the

48:55

Old Testament Through Christ, but what we obey is what Christ is.

49:01

And yes, I Would agree I would agree with them on that point

49:06

I think that's That gets into some of the whenever you get to Presbyterian covenant theology.

49:12

They're gonna see a greater level of continuity In between the old and the new covenants.

49:19

Like I said It's the same covenant of grace through different administrations,

49:25

I would say that the covenant of grace is specifically the new covenant

49:31

The covenant of grace is through, you know And and of course they would say through Christ But I would say that the law was not the law was part of covenant of works

49:41

And so we ask you this point in Adam. Yes Sabbath or no Sabbath No Sabbath, no

49:48

Sabbath Nope Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath. He is our Sabbath rest. That's in Hebrews and So yeah,

49:58

Christ is our Sabbath rest and and which is a funny thing because the 1689 confession

50:04

Confession if you read it, it would it would tend to lean Sabbatarian Yes, but it is saying in and all look this was given for your good

50:16

Right that the God knows that all of y 'all need a break you cannot work yourself to death

50:25

Just rest, you know and set aside one day and seven for the Lord See I would contend for a

50:34

Sabbath that continues but this is where I'm a little more liberal than some

50:41

Reform guys because I would contend for a view of the Sabbath with a little more Liberty Than what a lot of Sabbatarians would allow like this where I break with the

50:53

Westminster and the Savoy Hey, the Savoy actually says that there's where to abstain from all a sense of enjoyment on the

51:02

Sabbath And I'm thinking that's a little hard to do and I wonder to what extent that is

51:10

It becomes grievous to the believer and so my wrestling with the

51:16

Sabbath is What can I do and it still be a sense of freedom that I haven't

51:22

Christ and I think the Sabbath has a tendency in the way that we articulate it to become something that Puts unnecessary chains on a lot of believers that if you read a book on Sunday you have

51:36

Sinned against God There used to be these these illustrated instruction books for kids of kids that were playing soccer on the

51:44

Sabbath and died Like this was a way that they taught the Sabbath was was good was that these kids were playing football on Sunday fell through some ice and drowned

51:54

Like this is We could be a little more gentle I think than that but other point entirely

52:03

And so where I personally land with the application of the Sabbath is what can

52:09

I partake of on Sunday and still feel that I have rested. What can I partake in and it not be grievous?

52:17

And that's where that line is for everybody. I think that depends I think that's something that every believer has to work out in their own conscience as to what it means to rest on on one day and seven

52:30

But if you read it read a book on Sunday, I don't think you've blasphemed God or anything like that it can quickly become a law and That's where it where it starts becoming sin, right?

52:44

That's where where you're looking at Oh, well, you must keep the Sabbath and you're you are putting

52:50

Christians back under the law, right? they're going back under the the the taskmaster in Galatians and and so it all ties together of You know, how much of this can we can we really partake of?

53:07

before it's you know, you can have a you can have a law to yourself by your own conscience, but to enforce it and look at You know, like if I it

53:18

Yeah, it cannot be made law that has to be a clear distinction because there is a law and a gospel distinction

53:26

They have to be completely Separated because they are completely contrary

53:32

The gospel has already fulfilled the law It's just kind of it gets into one of those things.

53:40

I mean do Presbyterians have potlucks after church? I Don't know

53:47

But if they do praise God Because I know there are a lot of people

53:52

I've talked with that it is it breaks of that commandment I think it's the fourth commandment to Go out for lunch after church

54:01

Because you're forcing people to work on Sunday But by that definition you should also not have all your breakers turned on in your house because people are working on Sunday to provide

54:11

You with electricity Tell her I think you articulated what I've been

54:18

Holding to this this entire time or my point of view on this subject. I think you articulated how

54:26

I see it very well because Once you get to that point where you start asking yourself, do we do this?

54:34

Do we do that? You're you're basically creating your own

54:39

Talmud right Do this do this do this and don't do this don't do this don't do this

54:48

So that's I lean I lean towards how you articulated that I lean towards Troy's view on this even as a 1689

54:58

Baptist That that Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath and Christ fulfilled the

55:04

Sabbath our rest is in him. I rest in him every day and so that that physical rest short

55:15

It should come when we When the Lord allows it to come and be wise in our rest be wise in our spiritual rest but the

55:27

We would have to I think Jay links the other way as a 1689 Baptist. He's a

55:32

Sabbatarian for Sunday Dan as a Presbyterian Sabbatarian for Sunday And it'd be interesting to hear their perspective

55:43

On this I know we talked about it before but I think about the passages that talk about, you know

55:50

Don't don't judge each other For a day or feast or festival collages for isn't it some

56:02

Yeah Why why you look that up? I don't read this. This is from Hebrews 4 of that's okay

56:08

Just because it's directly related to the Sabbath. Yeah Therefore While the promise of entering his rest still stands let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it

56:22

For good news came to us just as to them But the message they heard did not benefit them because they were not united by faith with those who listened

56:32

For we who have believed Enter that rest and he has said as I sworn my wrath.

56:39

They shall not enter my rest Although his works were finished from the foundation of the world

56:45

For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way and God Rested on the seventh day from all his works and again in this passage.

56:56

He said they shall not enter my rest Since therefore it remains for some to enter it and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience

57:08

Again he points to a certain day today saying through David Through David so long afterward and the words already quoted today if you hear his voice do not harden your hearts

57:21

For if Joshua had given them rest God would not have spoken of another day later on So then there remains a

57:30

Sabbath rest for the people of God For whosoever has entered

57:36

God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his

57:42

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience and so the idea is there remains a

57:54

Sabbath rest for the people of God and Let us let us enter Whoever has entered by Christ Has also rested from his works as God did from his

58:07

Read. Yeah, I think you just basically quoted it read that verse 10 again For whoever has entered

58:15

God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his

58:20

So if I'm understanding this passage correctly, you know, and it jogged my memory of the conversation

58:25

I've had before God yes, God rested on the seventh day He established the seventh day as a day of rest and God rested on the seventh day

58:35

To mark that pattern in the beginning But he never picked that pick the hammer back up For God it was a perpetual rest.

58:46

Yes Is that not what he's speaking of here in Hebrews when when you as a believer you you when you enter into Christ?

58:54

You are entering into a perpetual rest that never end Yep, so I think that's why you and I land where we land where we rest in Christ perpetually.

59:06

Yes And and it's not not according to the law not according to It's definitely not a works -based things do

59:20

I do I keep Sunday as I rest yes Because guess what?

59:25

God's right. I need it You know, I need to I need to take a day off.

59:31

I will run myself ragged And so on Sundays, of course there there's not necessarily a law about it, right?

59:38

Sometimes, you know, we might we might go to the park and rest we might you know Come home.

59:45

Honestly, a lot of times we go eat Mexican food and I come home and I take an old man nap and all That's just kind of my thing like, you know, let the old dude, you know nap on the couch for for an hour or so before Before we start our trek back up the church

01:00:00

But it's it's a time of rest. It's Reenergizing for us where we're communing with the

01:00:08

Lord And and if we make it as a we're gonna set it aside as holy and we're gonna read

01:00:15

Three books of the Bible on Sunday because you know, we're gonna keep it holy and only do this you have built the law.

01:00:23

What verse you got Tyler? collages 216 I just wanted to Check one of the

01:00:29

Greek words here. Let's see color if you don't yeah, so collages 216 let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of an holy day or of the new

01:00:44

Moon or of the Sabbath days and I just looked at it in Greek and the word is sabaton

01:00:52

So we are talking about that word Sabbath in that text And I think

01:00:59

Dan and I've talked about that passage before He'll have to remind me about his his interpretation.

01:01:08

I Think that prevent provides a bit of a guardrail when we're talking about Two Sabbaths not to Sabbath and this is part of why

01:01:17

I think it falls to the individual conscience What does that look like to rest to Sabbath on the

01:01:24

Lord's Day is I do think the Sabbath was made for man It is a good thing that God gave us because we needed it

01:01:31

As to what that specifically looks like. I don't believe the New Testament Entirely says this is how to rest as much as it says rest

01:01:42

You know if there's somebody out there who is not resting in Christ We've approached an hour

01:01:50

Tyler just continue that thought How how can one rest in Christ and when he finishes where were you pray for us?

01:01:59

Of course so that the idea was resting in Christ Troy let it read it not too long ago in Hebrews that when

01:02:08

God made the world he ceased his works and so we're called to rest and to cease our works, but unlike God God continues working afterwards in the same way

01:02:20

But with with us were called to cease from our works because Christ has done all the work necessary To bring us into right standing with itself

01:02:30

That while we were rebel centers Hostile in nature engaged in evil deeds who were not

01:02:39

In fellowship with God The father saw fit to send his son to be born of a woman to live a perfect sinless life than you and I could never live and Then to die an undeserved sinner's death on the cross

01:02:55

Where the justice of the father for sin that should have been upon us was satisfied through Christ the

01:03:02

Son And he died and on the third day he was raised from the dead triumphant over sin triumphant over the grave triumphant over all things saying all authority has been given unto me in heaven and on earth and He ascends up up into heaven where he now sits at the right hand of the father

01:03:20

Where he is forever our priest making intercession for those who believe

01:03:27

And so what is left to what does it mean to rest in Christ? It means to recognize that Christ has done the work that you and I can never be good enough for God And so to rest in Christ is to cease from our works because our works are not good enough for God and So our works are not what saves

01:03:47

Christ works save So to rest in Christ is to call upon the name of God As I am a sinner.

01:03:56

I Can never be good enough for you, but Christ has been good enough for you That Christ has fulfilled the law and all of its requirements so that we do not have to earn that It is given to us.

01:04:11

And so we get into the good graces of God on his account not ours and At the truth and love network.

01:04:20

We implore you to rest in Christ to seek God and be made whole to be reconciled to God by God Heavenly Father Lord, I want to thank you for this this opportunity to be a part of this podcast or that the truth and love network on the on the laborers podcast a

01:04:46

Time that we set aside and and that we talk about you. We talk about your word

01:04:53

Lord and it's because you are worthy Lord it's my my prayer

01:05:00

Right now as we just heard a beautiful gospel Presentation or that there's anybody that watch this or that you would that you would feed them a steady diet of of conviction until They they they turn back to you

01:05:18

Lord God I pray that sinners would be born again

01:05:23

That that that that work of regeneration would be done in their heart Lord that they would be saved

01:05:31

Lord that is the ultimate goal of why we're here is to see your name magnified

01:05:39

Because we know what you did in our lives Lord you have saved us you have

01:05:46

You've dug each and every single one of us out of the bottomless gutter of the sin that was

01:05:53

That we partook in God we thank you for everything you're doing here on the network.

01:06:03

I thank you for these great friends that I have Lord that that we're able to minister and talk and Disagree about things but do it in such a way that That I believe that is glorifying and honoring to you

01:06:20

That it that it makes That it makes much of you and the love that we have for each other

01:06:29

Lord, we just ask that you would keep blessing What what we're doing here? Because without you without your spirit, it's all vain and it's all for nothing

01:06:42

And so Lord, we just pray that you would that you would help us with that Now unto the

01:06:48

King eternal and mortal invisible The only wise God be honor and glory forever and ever.

01:06:56

Amen Amen. Hallelujah. Praise the Lord. I'm thankful for you guys great conversation.

01:07:04

That was amazing. I appreciate She so much and all of you who who watched listen out there remember to let us know that you were here watch leave a comment and join us next time for Humble Baptist podcast bread of the word podcast truth.

01:07:20

Love podcast coming up this Monday and then in two weeks We'll be back for the labor's podcast.

01:07:26

Hope to see you real soon. Thank you for joining the laborers podcast Remember Jesus is

01:07:32

King live in the victory of Christ Speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.