Responding to Hyper-Preterists w/ Dr. Sam Frost @zachdavis3882

The Apologetic Dog

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July 2, 2024

How should we understand Daniel 9 and the end to sin? This will be an interesting episode!

01:36: Well, hello and welcome to The Apologetic Dog, where it's our heart's desire to contend for the gospel of grace.
01:44: And so embedded in The Apologetic Dog logo, hopefully you see 1 Timothy 6 verse 20, where Paul tells
01:50: Timothy and all Christians by principle, Oh Timothy, guard the gospel of grace, this deposit that's been entrusted to you.
01:58: How do you do this? Well, you avoid pagan philosophy, irreverent babble, and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.
02:07: And so at The Apologetic Dog, my heart is to simply stand on God's truth, because that is the only place where we get truth is his word.
02:17: And so I talk about irreverent babble and pagan philosophy. I had to have someone join me today to talk a little bit about that irreverent babble that creeps into Christianity, and we got to be on guard for,
02:32: Dr. Frost, you know I'm talking about? We got to be on guard for the things that creep in from outside the church and sets up strongholds within.
02:39: Have you ever had experience with that? Oh, yes. For your guests and those that are familiar with my history and who
02:51: I am. Some people might say I'm the king of babble. I don't know.
02:57: Well, hey, you've been an absolute blessing to me in my life, especially in the world of eschatology, because today
03:04: I want to do a response video to a response video. This isn't your first rodeo.
03:10: You've actually been on The Apologetic Dog before doing all these response videos. You know I'm talking about? Has it been about two years ago?
03:17: Me and you did a response video to Don Preston and Michael Sullivan getting into all the heresy, as we would say, of hyper -preterism.
03:27: Yes. Yeah, we've been through this before. You keep You kept me in the race.
03:35: Well, it's only because people are sending me shirts like this now. Nice. But whatever.
03:44: Shout out to Claude Ramsey for the merchandise. And I've got that shirt.
03:51: And thank you, Claude Ramsey, for that. I got that in the mail. My wife was like, what is that? And I showed her.
03:56: She's like, you gotta be kidding me. Well, hey, it fits me good. I was like, you know, we gotta,
04:03: I gotta wear this for our episode today. So if people are just now tuning in, living under a rock, and it was like, why is
04:12: Jeremiah having Dr. Frost on again? Hopefully they saw this thumbnail.
04:17: But there was a response video to Jeremiah Nortier, aka
04:23: The Apologetic Dog, part one, by Zach Davis. And I want to be real charitable towards Zach.
04:32: Me and Zach used to be good friends. Dr. Frost, I've told you a little bit about this. And we used to be close.
04:39: We used to have great conversations about eschatology. In fact, if you go deep into the archive of The Apologetic Dog, you will see it's just a recording, but it's called
04:48: An Evening of Eschatology. And I was defending pre -millennial dispensationalism, so you got to forgive me.
04:55: And Zach Davis at that time was defending the post -millennial position. But we were having a friendly dialogue with a few of our other friends, and so I want to encourage people to talk about that.
05:05: You'll hear my voice. You'll hear Zach's voice. And so that's been, goodness, over three years ago, easy, maybe four years.
05:12: So a lot has happened since then. And so Zach has made his way into full preterism. So Zach was a post -millennialist that became a full preterist.
05:23: Okay, so as far as I remember, he started out pre -millennial dispy. Then he went to all mill.
05:30: I think he was all mill for like a week or two, a very short period of time. I don't want to ever misrepresent Zach. He tells me
05:36: I don't understand his position, and we'll see about that. Maybe there are certain things I don't understand
05:41: I'm willing to further understand. But anyway, he told me, I'm pretty sure, he was all mill for a really short time.
05:48: Then he was post -millennial for a long time. After that, and then it was just a handful of months,
05:55: Dr. Frost, until he gave me the phone call and said, oh no, Jeremiah, I think I'm a heretic. And I just said, pump the brakes, man.
06:01: You don't have to do this. You don't have to preach it from the pulpit. And I said, please don't. There are hard things to understand in the
06:09: Word of God. It doesn't mean we have to preach it. And so I remember those conversations.
06:14: He was worried. He goes against all the creeds, 2 ,000 years of church history. And I just said, look, those are good indicators that we need to slow down in what we're studying.
06:24: So anyway, it was just a few months later until he did the nosedive into full preterism. And that's about the time that I called you and just said, hey,
06:31: I need help. I don't know what to say anymore to a good friend of mine that I've lost to full preterism.
06:36: And so these are important matters. And by the way, you wrote many books on the matter.
06:42: And so we'll kind of dip into this a little bit later on this evening. But is there anything you would like to say for those that are maybe in the post -millennial camp or those that are studying full preterism and they're trying to make heads or tails of which direction they should go?
07:01: Well, I mean, I was post -millennial, certainly.
07:06: You know, preterist, post -millennial and then became full preterist and then left that whole that whole thing and eventually began to see the problems with just preterism in general.
07:18: And in post -millennial, the two are very closely linked together.
07:24: So I would just always issue a word of caution. When you find yourself going down the road where virtually every passage in the scripture is related to 70
07:34: A .D., that seems to be the whole buzzword going around in some in some circles.
07:43: But, you know, just a word of caution. Yes, well, thanks.
07:49: Thanks for sharing that. Because the reason why we see it as a caution,
07:54: I believe, if you've watched my content at all, full preterism essentially redefines all of Christianity.
08:02: Meaning it goes against everything of what Christians have held on to for 2 ,000 years. Me and you have done content about that and the gospel not only frees us from the penalty of sin, right?
08:14: We have our sins washed away, removed as far as the east is from the west when we put our faith alone in Christ alone.
08:22: But Jesus says that he will not leave us. He will send us the Holy Spirit not to be left as orphans.
08:29: But when he was ascending on high, he said he would return, Dr. Frost. And when we start studying in Titus chapter 2, a
08:37: Christian's blessed hope, we hang on to that. We rebuke those who contradict this doctrine about Jesus's appearing, his great parrhesia, that great and awesome day of the
08:47: Lord when he will judge the world and righteousness. And full preterism says that already happened at 70
08:54: AD at the destruction of the temple. And so to me that takes away, even though the gospel is the good news, you can have your sin forgiven and have no more condemnation credited to your account.
09:07: What's also embedded is a future blessed hope that sin will be no more.
09:14: Not even the presence or power of sin will be on this earth. And so that's where a full preterism,
09:20: I think, takes a wild turn. I mean, and there's all different kinds of full preterism, but full preterism would say that, you know, the presence of sin, the power of sin, that's not really covenantally what was meant to take place.
09:33: It's all done away with at 70 AD. And I want to caution people that totally contradicts not only our reality, but many good scriptures that we'll get into today as we are responding to Zach Davis.
09:45: Yeah, it certainly contradicts reality. And you have to redefine all of this, and then you come up with this framework, covenantalism, or however they want to, you know,
09:58: Don Preston does that, interpreting everything covenantally, virtually to the point where nothing really is relatable to you anymore, because if you mentioned wars today, those are just going to go on forever.
10:12: They really don't have anything to do with anything, really. So we're just left in this kind of vacuum.
10:21: So, and they have, they have no end. The end has already passed. And so there's no, it's everything's already fulfilled.
10:30: So now you have to define all of the fulfillment passages in terms of what we experienced today.
10:37: And this is where the, just radical Gnosticism like tendencies, as my debate with Ward Finley, I think demonstrated quite plainly with Ward, where he's,
10:50: Ward's claiming that he's actually, he's perfect covenantally speaking. See, you see the disconnect there.
10:58: It's okay. That's great. I don't know what that means to be perfected covenantally. Because the only thing
11:07: I'm working on is what you're seeing here in the screen. I'm working on that. Covenantally.
11:13: So it's just, it's just this wild discourse and the well over a decade now that I've been out of it.
11:20: And when I hear Ward and people like that anymore today, I wish I just didn't have the thinker thinking cap that I have on now.
11:30: I didn't have it on then and I have it on now. And so when I hear full preterist today,
11:36: I'm just, I just shake my head like, man, oh man, you're not living in the real world here. When you were in the full preterist movement, did you kind of use that word covenantal as kind of get out of jail free card?
11:50: Yeah, we were trying to, I mean, I remember having conversation with a family member and I was drunk on the poolside.
12:00: This was in Orlando, just drunk. And the person was another person, family member that went to church.
12:06: And how can you sit there and you're, you know, a teacher and you're drunk and you're proclaiming
12:12: Jesus. And I'm talking about the Bible and all this other bunch of stuff, just, you know, completely just out of it. And I said, because what you're looking at, this isn't,
12:20: Jesus has perfected me. And you're judging me according, you know, to what you're seeing in appearances, but Jesus has fulfilled all things.
12:27: And so even though I may have a drinking issue that has nothing to do with my relationship with God, I was just living in such a disconnect.
12:38: That I could excuse my sinful behavior, drunkenness.
12:45: I could excuse that under the rubric that I'm already sanctified covenantally.
12:51: So what I do doesn't matter or does not affect in any way, shape or form the salvation and justification that I have in Christ, who has fulfilled all things and fully dwells with me now, as he will always do.
13:06: He will always fully dwell with me now, covenantally speaking. And so using that phrase covenantally, that allowed, that was it.
13:14: It was a get out of sin free card. You know, it was just, and that's, that's,
13:20: I spent, you know, many years, you know, living just like that, excusing and justifying sin and all kinds of stuff.
13:29: And I think you saw that very clearly with Ward Finley. And that is the ethics that comes out of that.
13:37: And with Zach or anybody else listening, that is your ethics that comes out of that because God is just not concerned with your biological life here on earth.
13:48: And he certainly isn't concerned with perfecting your bodily biological life at all, because that is not the goal.
13:57: That is not the end of redemption, the redemption of your body. As Paul says, well, what's the body there?
14:04: Well, you can't define it as this body that you're seeing in the screen. You have to come up with another term.
14:09: And that's the corporate body, the covenantal body. See everything, everything gets redefined.
14:15: And so I don't, it just, that's why this will never sell in mainstream.
14:23: No one can relate to it. It's only a cloister of people that get into this cultic buzzword mentality and they got their own language and everything going on.
14:34: And those on the outside looking in just don't understand any of it at all.
14:39: And the majority of the people in the many multitude of churches, church ministers that I've been with over the last several years and see these videos and things like this, their number one question, you know, how did you ever get into this?
14:54: You know, because this is just so far off the reservation. That's what I know. I understand. Let me explain to you how, how
15:01: I got into it. So that's been my, and I've watched a lot of people.
15:08: There's three reactions to full preterism that I get among the church. And these are, you know, hardworking, family oriented, good ethical, moral people who are dealing with themselves in a biblical fashion, confessing their faults and sins and accountability and responsibility and all of that kind of stuff.
15:31: The first one is just incredulous that is that something like this even exists. It's just complete insanity.
15:38: That's the first reaction. I'd say that's the majority reaction. The other reaction are those that are looking into it, but then they begin to see the conclusions and then they don't go down that path.
15:49: They say, well, I got to go down another path. And then the third is those among the full preterists that are coming, that have come out of it.
15:58: And I would say that by now, within the years where I'm at now, there's been literally hundreds that I have worked with, that I have dealt with through emails and other exchanges on the phone that have dropped the view and come out of it completely, saw for what it was and have left it.
16:16: And so I'm very thankful to be put in a position and people like you that tell me to stay in and keep doing this and sounding the alarm.
16:27: You know what I'm going to say now? No. Yeah. But whatever.
16:33: But whatever. Well, Dr. Frost, thanks for coming on. I want to play a few clips.
16:41: Zach did about a 12 minute video. I'm actually glad he made it super small for me to look at. But then he told everybody,
16:48: Jeremiah's last video was over an hour and a half. So if you want to continue to watch my responses to him, you got to become a member on his
16:54: YouTube page. It's like, oh, I got to pay to watch the rest of it. No, thanks. But so I just want people to know we actually have a number of full preterists watching, filling out.
17:06: I asked people in the live chat to fill. Is there a way to get in the chat room? Say again. Oh, I see it.
17:12: OK, chat room. Yeah. Yeah. So we got a number of full preterists. I'm glad they're watching.
17:17: That way they can hear your heart in real time. And I just want everybody to know I don't hate you. We say all these things out of love and this goes especially for Zach Davis.
17:26: So let me play this first clip where I believe this is something that he quotes me in my last response video.
17:34: And he told me he didn't appreciate it too much. So this one statement really is something that he said at the beginning of the video at the 623 mark.
17:46: And he commented this on full preterism. Jeremiah said that full preterism is not a look at redemptive history.
17:53: It's a look at Israel's history. Mary, that again, that full preterism is not a look at redemptive history.
18:01: It is a look at Israel's history. And my first thoughts when
18:07: I heard that were. I'm not really sure he can play that angle and play that route because even futurists are going to have to agree to an extent that Israel's history is connected to redemptive history.
18:22: OK. So I want to bring some clarity on this because at our position,
18:29: I believe the Orthodox view of eschatology, namely that Jesus' second return is going to be bodily in our future.
18:39: The resurrection of the dead, that's bodily in future. And Jesus is going to judge the world in righteousness and restore all things.
18:47: That includes the physicality. Everything that has dirt that has been cursed by sin will be restored.
18:56: Catching people up a little bit. I did a video with Dr. Stephen Boyce. And we talked about basically how full preterism fails logically, historically, which is
19:09: Dr. Boyce's area of expertise. And then we talked about how full preterism fails exegetically.
19:16: And one of the comments that Zach did quote me correctly on, I said, one of the problems with full preterism is redemptive history for them is basically, and I was using kind of the language of saying, is basically
19:30: Israel's history. Now, I believe true Israel that have been given the promises of gods and blessings are found in Jesus Christ.
19:40: The true Jews are those that are believers. And so I think,
19:46: I think all of history is God's redemptive story. Now, I think there is a story of redemption for the ethnic
19:54: Jews that brought forth Messiah. And so when I told Zach that the full preterist paradigm is centralized around ethnic
20:03: Jews, I'm saying, yeah, that's really all y 'all care about leading up to the destruction of the temple.
20:09: And so I'm making the case that for you to think all of our blessed hope and eschatology is realized with the ethnic
20:18: Jews, that's where you see the end that Scripture is talking about. Because our view is that history keeps going.
20:26: Therefore, redemptive history keeps going and God is still saving true
20:32: Jews. So before I hand it over to you, I want to kind of show a few scriptures of what
20:38: I'm talking about. Zach and I actually talked about this in Isaiah 46 a long time ago.
20:46: So at the beginning of Isaiah, he is actually talking to Israel.
20:52: Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all the remnant of the house of Israel who have been born by me from before your birth, carried from the womb.
21:02: So this has a historic context, Dr. Frost, as I'm sure you're aware of. But it moves into God.
21:09: He is Yahweh. There is none like him who declaring the end from the beginning.
21:16: Now, there's a whole context here. I remember talking with Zach a while back, and he just said, oh, this is talking about Israel.
21:22: And I said, so you're going to interpret the end. You know what they interpret the end, Dr. Frost, to be? 70
21:28: A .D. 70 A .D. I know. And a couple of things.
21:35: I believe in the old covenant. Yes, you had an ethnic people, but you had a remnant.
21:42: You had true Jews, which Paul in Romans 2 and Romans 9 would say it'd be those who have changed hearts that are trusting in Christ alone.
21:53: And so I was trying to get Zach to see that redemptive history continues on past 70
21:58: A .D. Now, this is where I was wanting to maybe get a little bit of your thoughts. Because I think what
22:05: Zach is trying to do—can you hear me okay? Yes. I think what Zach's trying to do is saying since eschatology is realized at 70
22:14: A .D., him and Gary DeMar, Michael Sullivan, maybe Don Preston, they're trying to now apply those fulfilled principles of eschatology for us today.
22:25: And I'm saying they are for us today because we are true Israel, those that truly believe in Christ.
22:32: So what do you think so far? The other verse that's parallel is the one in Isaiah.
22:41: You quoted Isaiah 41, 4, who performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning.
22:50: I am the first, I am the last, and I will be with the last.
22:57: And with the last what? The last generation. He's performed and done this calling the generations, plural, from the beginning.
23:06: I, the Lord, am the first and will be with the last. You can put there the last generation.
23:13: So he's with the beginning generations and he's with the last generations.
23:18: And I brought this to Paul Preterist, like Larry Siegel and others, and I said, what's 70
23:23: A .D.? So everything's 70 A .D. The only end that God is concerned with is 70
23:29: A .D. That's it. Last I checked, the
23:41: Bible does not begin with Israel. The book of Genesis does not begin with Israel.
23:49: It begins with Adam. And then there's this chapter in 11 or 10, rather.
23:55: That's called the Table of Nations. Noah was not an Israelite. And Noah's sons were not
24:02: Israelite. And their sons were not Israelites. And their sons and their sons were not Israelites. So you've got chapter 10, which is the
24:12: Table of Nations, who are clearly none of them clearly are not descended from Abraham.
24:21: He doesn't come until chapter 11 and 12. So now
24:27: I brought this up before to like Israel only Paul Preterist. And they are completely dismissive of that entire section of Scripture, which is the primeval history.
24:38: Genesis one through 11. If you read biblical scholarship, biblical Old Testament scholarship,
24:43: Genesis one through 11 is the primeval history and is the foundation for everything else that you find in the
24:50: Bible. Is Genesis one through 11, because 12 is is where the covenant is made that God is is entering into a specific plan through which he's going to bring about the new heavens and new earth.
25:04: And the bringing in of the seed and the bringing in of every the one who will undo everything that was done through the sin and transgression of Adam.
25:14: So it involves world history. And Israel is included in that. Certainly, God made promises to Abraham and to the seed of Israel, Israel, according to the flesh, who are promised to inherit the earth forever.
25:31: God made these promises to them. Now, unless God is a liar. I can conclude two things.
25:38: One, he made a promise to the seed of Abraham to inherit the land, the earth forever.
25:46: And two, that has not been fulfilled yet. And I can safely conclude that it hasn't been fulfilled yet.
25:58: Take a look around you. It has not been fulfilled yet. And so this is what
26:05: Paul is waiting for. This is where the Bible ends. The Bible ends with new heavens and new earth.
26:12: That's where history is going is to the restoration of all things. Resurrection of the dead.
26:17: Glorification. Immortality. Eternal life. God dwelling with us. And we being his people.
26:24: And he being our God. And there's absolutely no filters whatsoever. We will know
26:30: God as Jesus. The man is one with the father. We will be one with the father. I won't have to die to go to heaven to be with Jesus.
26:39: That's all God. There's no separation. Nothing. And we will walk with God forever.
26:47: Forever and ever in his creation. That's the hope that I'm looking forward to. That's why my labor today as a pilgrim in this world, in this age, in this day, is laborious.
26:59: It's hard. There's deception that's all around. So I can relate to all of these themes that we find in the
27:04: Bible. I can relate to them. We're fighting it every single day. We fight it in the government. We fight it in the politics.
27:10: We fight it in philosophy. We fight it in our schools. We fight it with our families. We fight it in our church.
27:17: We're fighting it all over the place. And so this language is very much relevant to me.
27:23: But when you reduce and fulfill everything to 70 A .D., now you're left out here in la -la land.
27:30: And that's why full preterism is falling apart, because they have no world history. So they can't tell me the beginning of the world.
27:39: They can tell you the beginning of Israel. And they can't tell me the end of the world. So they don't know where the world is going.
27:46: And for them, the world, teleologically, is heading towards an infinite whatever.
27:54: Whatever it is. I don't know. They don't know. So they have no hope. There's no hope for this world here that we see that we're actually operating within.
28:05: There's no hope for this world. It's to infinitely spiral with sin and evil and destruction and death and everything else, because none of that is related, again, as we were saying in the beginning, none of that is related to the biological reality that we live in.
28:22: It's all covenantal and a superstructure of spirituality. That's the realm within.
28:28: They define everything. So you're right. They don't have a world history. They can't account for a world.
28:35: Yeah, so I did want to speak back to this a little bit. Zach said, you know, the statement
28:42: I made was, full preterist is concerned with not redemptive history but Israel's history.
28:49: Now, I think maybe I didn't speak, you know, super clear, but I definitely believe all history is redemptive history.
28:56: Therefore, ethnic Israel's history is a part of redemptive history. So I've never denied that.
29:02: I just understand they have divorced what was going on with Israel, what
29:09: God was doing in the Old Testament, from what God is continuing to do. And so I think, Zach, tell me, is this a minority view if you have a realized eschatology?
29:18: Now, did you try to do this back in the late 90s, early 2000s, but then try to take principles and then just, to me, if you just take those principles and apply it today, then to me you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, because you have those
29:31: Israel -only groups that just say, nope, we're living post -redemptive history.
29:36: You're reading someone else's mail. It's not for you. Yeah, I never let go of being raised in the church, being in the church, and then before I became a full preterist,
29:49: I had four years of my Bachelor of Theology. So I had a foundation of churchianity laid there.
29:58: And in that foundation was that Genesis is a creation narrative of the world and the whole world, what eventually is spread out.
30:10: And so I never left that. However, that was a big, giant problem.
30:19: So to get around that, there was a group, Jeff Vaughn and Tim Martin.
30:26: And I was friends with them and spoke with them at several conferences and this, that and the other. They wrote a book called
30:31: Beyond Creation Science. Very popular full preterist book. And they call it
30:37: Beyond Creation Science, or they call it, here's your word again, Covenant Creation.
30:44: And so since 2 Peter 3 is apocalyptic language, and it's obviously speaking
30:51: Genesis language, because nobody would disagree with that, whatever 2
30:57: Peter 3 is talking about is talking about Genesis creation language. But since that's 70 AD language, then we go back to Genesis 1, and that's apocalyptic
31:06: Israel language. And Adam is the first covenant Israelite. He's the first covenant person.
31:13: He's not the first human being. And this is not the story of world history. This is the story, again, it focuses back in again on Israel.
31:20: So it becomes very Israel -centric. Well, I thought that was just ludicrous. And many within full preterism, like the
31:30: Ed Stephens camp, they, you know, young earth creationist type. So Ed Stephens never left that either.
31:38: And that was one of the pillars that I was just not ready to, I was not going to.
31:44: I was not going to give that one up for full preterism. And so I tried to incorporate an actual young earth creationism in with full preterism.
31:51: That was one of the linchpins that just didn't, just among many, that was one of them that just did not work.
31:58: And I think that Tim Martin and Jeff Vaughn, to their credit, that in the full preterist scheme, if you're going to be consistent, you would have to go the route that they went with the beyond creation science and covenant creation and all of that.
32:15: And that Adam was not talking about the first primeval man. It's not talking about, not talking about, it's really not talking about, it's really not a cosmogony at all.
32:26: And so they've solved the, you know, Tim Martin would run around saying he's solved the creationist evolutionist problem and full preterism is the key to solving the young earth, you know, and all that bunch of other stuff.
32:40: So it, and I was just not going to go that route. In fact, I got criticized by Tim Martin and others.
32:46: When I left full preterism, one of the things that they would say to me quite often is that the reason why
32:51: Sam left is because he's a young earth creationist. Before I play this next clip,
32:59: I want to make sure people hear us correctly. We know the full preterists say the
33:04: Bible is not written to you. It's written for you. But my critique is if it's already been fulfilled at 70
33:14: AD and we're living in post -redemptive history, then how is it even for you?
33:22: You know what I'm saying? Like, that's first audience relevance. So why are you trying to glean principles for yourself today?
33:29: So we're not misrepresenting the position. We're actually calling to question that the full preterists can even say it's for you.
33:35: So I wanted to say that real quick. All things being, thank you for chiming in.
33:40: Keep your questions coming. And we may get into this question a little bit later on because I want us to talk about the covenantal language of heaven and earth.
33:51: Right? And so all things being, says young earth creation is not at odds with full preterism.
33:58: So I'm going to table this. And all things being, let me know if I seem to kind of miss this later on because I do want to touch on this.
34:05: Because personally, I do not believe young earth creationism is consistent with full preterism.
34:11: It's because full preterism has certain definitions that I would press for consistency that leads you all the way back to Genesis one, if you were going to be consistent.
34:23: So let me play this next clip because I believe Zach is going to continue to say, hey, we're not supposed to divorce redemptive history from Israel's history.
34:34: I'm not. I'm saying there's a problem if you think that is the key capstone to understanding eschatology because that's very similar to dispensationalism.
34:43: I want to just make some points here that I think will be kind of helpful to push back against Jeremiah's idea of disconnecting redemptive history from Old Covenant Israel's history.
34:54: Israel's history laid the foundation of what Christ would fulfill and that redemptive history is now applied to the nations all who believe.
35:03: And that's the whole essence of really the eschaton. When I think about eschatology, I don't think about the burning up of the planet.
35:10: I think about the completion of the redemptive plan, which is centered around Old Covenant Israel.
35:16: So Jeremiah whiffs it whenever he says that we don't see redemptive history. We see
35:22: Israel's history. Well, Israel's history is redemptive history. The last thing he said there, redemptive history is
35:30: Israel's history. That was my entire point. That's what they see. The plan of redemption is
35:35: Israel's history. I do not divorce the two. I think Israel's history are for true believers, the way that Paul says.
35:44: In fact, I even pull it up here in Romans chapter 2, because I think when you understand that Israel, the way that Paul speaks about it is something much deeper than the ethnic people.
35:59: Let me see if I can pull this up. Tell me if you can see this on your end. Okay. Let me read the concluding verses for the
36:07: Apostle Paul. So something
36:26: I want to submit to you, Dr. Frost, and tell me your thoughts. I believe that full preterism does not have a redemptive historical hermeneutic, meaning the
36:38: New Testament Scriptures are the best interpreters of the Old Covenant.
36:44: Now, Scripture is perspicuous, and we want to understand language written in the proper time frame.
36:50: But as Christians, we take Christ with us as we go into the Old Testament. When you look at Isaiah 53, oh, well,
36:56: Jesus is the perfect fulfillment of that. And so for the Apostle Paul, he is saying, oh, the blessings that God promised of salvation,
37:06: God's promise of an eternal kingdom, oh, that's for the Jew who is one inwardly, according to the
37:12: Apostle Paul. And so I don't want to dis—in fact,
37:17: I see the Jewish people. I mean, even early in Romans chapter 3, the ethnic people of Jews brought forth the oracles of God, the
37:27: Scriptures. And so, of course, they are foundational in the history that God is working out all things together after the counsel of his will.
37:36: Now, when Isaiah 46 talks about he declares the end from the beginning, well, the full preterists want that to be the end of ethnic
37:46: Israel's history. And I'm saying all of history is redemptive history. And so we get into deeper terms that need to be defined.
37:54: Hopefully we get into this age and the age to come. That's where we're going to really part ways.
38:00: And perhaps that's where we're going to see a major disconnect with the full preterist and the
38:05: Orthodox position. Any thoughts with that? No, I think in the main, I would agree with that.
38:12: God clearly makes a covenant with a particular people that he separates out from the rest of the nations that are surrounding them.
38:20: The Amorites, they're not Israelites. The Hittites and Babylonians, they're not Israelites. You know, he starts the
38:29: Hebrew people with a guy named Abraham. And that's and he starts there in the night.
38:34: Genesis 17 is the beginning of the whole process. But then you notice what he's doing with Hagar.
38:40: God makes a covenant with Hagar and he makes a covenant with her son. He makes her promises already.
38:47: He's showing these. You see this in various stories. A wonderful story. You see it in his Ruth. Here's another wonderful little story that's going on about the nature of redemption.
38:56: Ruth is a Moabites. Moabites are sworn enemies of Israel. They're not and they're not Israelites at all.
39:04: And yet, what does God do with Ruth? Notice that she uses that covenantal phrasing that we find originally in the covenant with Abraham.
39:12: I will be your God and you will be my people. And Ruth says to Naomi, I will go with you and your
39:18: God will be my God and your people will be my people. That's covenant. Now, that that's covenant talk.
39:24: But this is a this is a Gentile woman who is being assimilated into the faith of Naomi, which is a very strong faith that that Naomi had in her
39:35: God lamenting as she is. But she understands who she can lament to the
39:41: God of maker of heaven and earth who has covenanted with the people. And she realizes that we know there's a
39:46: God in Israel. There's a God of Israel. Let's go back to Israel. And Ruth goes with her and Israel's God becomes her
39:54: God. And she becomes assimilated into the people of God. We find her later on in the in the genealogy.
40:00: There's a very strong point why Matthew includes her. And she's a Gentile. She's a
40:05: Moabite. She is not an Israelite. We find this in several places. For example, the register of the names of the people who will say
40:13: Israel's God is my God. The registers in the Psalms talks about and the Ethiopian will say, this is my
40:20: God. And the the Philistine will say, this is my God. How you see this also in Isaiah, where it talks about Assyria, who will be my people and I will reach out and Egypt will
40:31: Egypt will be my inheritance. He's talking about Egyptians and Assyrians. And I can tell you and prove to you.
40:40: And, you know, Jeremiah or you tell me if I can do this. Do it.
40:46: I can prove to you beyond the shadow of a doubt that Assyrians and Egyptians are not
40:53: Israelites. Prove it. Well, we go back to the table of nations and you can see that the
41:06: Assyrians that are mentioned there and also the Mitsrayim, the the
41:13: Egyptians, they're also mentioned there and there before the time of Abraham. So the
41:18: Egyptians existed before the people of Israel existed. The Assyrians existed before the people of Israel.
41:24: But the line of them that came out of from Ham, that line is already there and is already doing its thing.
41:29: So the Assyrians and Egyptians are not Israelites. And yet we find God saying, I will make them my people.
41:35: I will cause the Assyrians to be my people. You find this all throughout this call to the nations.
41:41: Why in the world? Is Isaiah the prophet or Jeremiah or not?
41:47: Not Hosea, but the other prophets, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah. Why are they?
41:53: Why? Why are large, large sections of their prophetic material talking to the nations?
42:02: The Babylonians. And the people in Cush and the people of Tyre and the
42:09: Amorites. Why are they speaking to all these other nations? They're not Israelites. And they're speaking in terms that they would use that they speak to the
42:18: Israelites for. Are the Amorites or the Hittites? Are they in covenant with God or something? Why does
42:23: God care about the Hittites? What, what, what, what, what do the
42:30: Assyrians have to do with Jonah going and preaching the gospel to the Assyrians? You know why
42:35: Jonah doesn't want to go to the Assyrians. They're not Israelites. Jonah is pro nationalistic
42:43: Israel and Israel only. And he, he, he knows that God is compassionate and full of mercy.
42:49: He knows that if he preaches this message, that there's a chance that they may repent. And I know that you're a loving
42:55: God and you will grant them repentance. And I don't, I don't want to go and do that. I don't,
43:00: I just don't want to go and preach to them. And he, he's, he's Jewish. He doesn't want anything to do with these
43:07: Gentile pig people. They're unclean, filthy
43:12: Gentiles. And I don't want anything to do with God. So, again, when you start looking at the table of nations and you're using that table of nations for what we encounter later on, for example, the story of Lot, here we have the story of the
43:27: Amorites that come out from Lot's incestuous relationship. Why is it including all these stories about the origins of all these people who are not
43:35: Israelites? Because the plan of redemption includes them. It includes all the nations, all the nations.
43:43: This has always been from the day one. And I think this is what Paul develops and why he goes to the nations is because the promise of fulfillment of Messiah has come.
43:53: Then the nation should be being drawn in, in the last days. It says this. And so I'm going to go to the,
43:59: I'm going to go to the nations. I'm going to go to the, the Haguyim. I'm going to go to the, to the, it's translated the
44:05: Gentiles. And so he does. And he opens his mouth. He preaches the gospel. And guess what happens?
44:12: The Haguyim believe these are people who have, they have no clue who
44:18: Moses is. They don't know who Samson is. They have no idea who Samuel or Isaiah is.
44:24: They've never heard of Hosea or redemptive history or the covenant with Moses. They've never heard of any of this stuff.
44:31: And here goes, here comes this Jewish Paul coming into their very pagan cities, preaches about Yeshua, HaMashiach of the people of Israel.
44:39: And they believe. Complete non -Jews.
44:47: So remember the get out of jail free card was it's covenantal, right? And so this is where I want to encourage people.
44:54: That's that term is already very much established in scripture and it's not being used the way that the full predators use it.
45:03: I would like to submit when we start looking at covenant, we see a covenant between father, son, and spirit.
45:10: We see this eternal redemptive covenant that God is working all things together towards, you know, we talk about that tell us, that's what
45:18: Isaiah 46 was talking about. And then we see God giving a covenant with Adam, the book of Hosea even references.
45:26: And now this and that's where a full preterist really want to define what's going on is this kind of a spiritual covenant, right?
45:36: That man is now trapped going to Hades, right? And that's really what's going on.
45:42: And I would submit that man cannot earn salvation with God ever since of the fall.
45:50: We see God giving, hey, do this and you shall live. And if you disobey, then there are curses.
45:57: And so we see this all throughout the old covenant. Second Corinthians chapter three refers to this as a ministry of death.
46:05: And then there is a covenant of grace, a covenant that saves to the uttermost
46:10: Dr. Frost. And so I want to share people that there is an eternal covenant that God, this is where me and you can strongly agree.
46:18: Let me see here, if I can pull it up on your end, tell me if you can see this. So in Ephesians chapter three, this is where all of history is redemptive history, not just the
46:30: Jewish people that the full preterist are going to see as central and then terminating at the end.
46:36: And so here in Ephesians chapter three, and to bring light for everyone, all the nations,
46:43: Dr. Frost, right? The mystery of Christ being now revealed is there's a new man in Christ alone by faith alone, whether you're
46:53: Jew or Greek, and to bring the gospel light for everyone, people of all nations. What is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things so that through the church, the manifold wisdom of God might be now made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
47:12: This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus, our
47:19: Lord. And so before we move on to the next clip, full preterist has to say, well, sure there were
47:26: Jews being grafted in before 70 AD. And it just blows my mind because I'm saying, well, then that's it, right?
47:33: The church, right, that obviously Paul is talking about, reached glorification at 70
47:39: AD. And so I want you to speak a little bit back to that principle that Zach will be getting into.
47:44: We can just apply principles that wasn't written to us, but we can apply it for us today.
47:50: Is there any thoughts you have with that? Well, if it's all fulfilled in 70
47:55: AD and you're using Ephesians to do that, you have to go the entire route there with Ephesians and keep reading it in Ephesians chapter four, where, you know, you can't stop.
48:12: You can't just read a couple of snippets of passages and say that that was fulfilled in 70 AD. You have to go, you have to go the whole route.
48:20: So in Ephesians chapter four, it states that he gave some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
48:35: And I think Zach's a pastor, right? Yes. All right. Now, let's get into the purposeful clause in Greek.
48:43: So why did he give? Well, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, until there's a time statement.
48:54: All of us come to the unity of the faith. I don't think, I don't know, maybe covenantally we're there.
49:03: You can go to the Southern Baptist Convention. I don't think they're in the unity of the faith, but whatever. And of the knowledge of the son of God.
49:12: So not only that, but the unity of the knowledge of the son of God. So we have unity. The knowledge of the son of God to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ.
49:22: We must no longer be children tossed to and fro, but speaking truth and love. We grow up into every way into him who is the head
49:28: Christ, from whom the whole body joined and knit together in every ligament, in which it is equipped in each part working, probably promotes the body's growth up in love.
49:39: Now that's 70 AD. That's directly connected to what
49:46: Paul was saying in his eschatology in Ephesians. And so you have to be prepared to say that that has happened.
49:53: And if this has happened, then we're in the unity of the faith. Covenantally speaking.
50:00: And that we are in the full body and the unity of the son of the knowledge of the son of God. Covenantally speaking, even though mentally here on earth, obviously we don't agree on the knowledge of Christ, even with the full prayers.
50:15: And then you'd have to say that everything from the whole body is joined and knit together in every ligament, which it is equipped.
50:21: Now, once that happens, then the mission of the prophets, evangelists, apostles, like reading the apostle
50:29: Paul, that's been completed. Well, I don't, then I don't need pastors in him. See in the biblical view, new heavens and new earth.
50:37: We're not going to have pastors and prophets and evangelists going around telling us what the word of God means, because we have disagreements in the new heavens and new new earth.
50:44: We'll be walking in unity and the knowledge of the son of God. We're not going to be debating over what baptism is. We're not going to be debating on what
50:51: Bible translation to use. Those debates are gone. So I can account for that. But then
50:56: I can account for the fact that why it is that we have disagreement today, because we're not there yet. The full predators can't do that.
51:03: The only way he can do that is to come up with this covenantal language. That is a disconnect again from the reality that we see at our general assemblies and conventions where we have this.
51:15: Clearly the church is not united in terms of what Paul was talking about, the end goal here, or I would submit to you at the end of Jesus's prayer in John 17 that we may be one.
51:26: But again, they have to reinterpret these passages because all of that is fulfilled in 70 AD. Ward Finley, go back and watch my debate with Ward Finley.
51:34: He says all of this. So if you're going to be a full preterist, be a consistent full preterist and go the whole route.
51:42: So the church is united. The church is perfect and we don't need Zach's anymore.
51:48: I have direct access to the Holy spirit in the fullness of Jesus Christ, in the knowledge of the son of God directly between me and God, no intermediary whatsoever because covenantally it has been fulfilled and therefore
52:05: I don't need to pay a guy with my ties and offerings. Old Testament. Tell me what the
52:12: Bible means. Old Testament. So that I can understand what the
52:18: Bible means. Through a pastor that God has sent to me as a gift for the building up and equipping of me,
52:25: I'm already built up and I'm already equipped and I don't need you. I don't need to go to see.
52:32: So why do a lot of full preterists don't go to church? I just answered your question.
52:38: They don't need to. Ward Finley. They don't, they don't, they don't need to do this.
52:45: I don't need a pastor. I don't need some guy. I've got the Holy spirit. I've got the fullness of Jesus Christ and the fullness of the
52:52: Holy spirit in every ligament and every joint. So covenantally speak. So I don't need to go to church to pay ties and offerings and baptisms and Lord's tables and all the rest of it and all your buildings and your pews and all that money that is wasted on all that kind of stuff.
53:09: And you could be doing so much, something so much better because you need to realize that the full preterist message is true.
53:15: And you need to get away with all this religious, earthly, divisive, futurist,
53:25: Christianity and full preterism solves all those problems. Now I'm sounding like a full preterist.
53:30: This is the stuff I used to preach. So, you know, if you're going to go the whole route, go the whole route, you know, go big or go home, but go pick little verses.
53:41: Oh, this applies to us. Oh, this still applies to us. No, it doesn't.
53:47: It doesn't apply to you. Paul was not writing to Zach. Paul doesn't know who
53:53: Zach is. So I want to be charitable towards Zach because obviously he would look at Ward Finley, the covenant creationist crowd as, well, we're not them.
54:04: You know, don't associate us with them. Now we're, me and you were talking about who's being more consistent, right?
54:10: But I've heard Zach say before, well, when we look at Revelation 22, you know, the, the new heavens and new earth is covenantally here.
54:20: We're in this consummated everlasting kingdom here. And now we just can't see it with our physical eye.
54:26: Dr. Frost, Revelation 22 says the spirit and bride say come.
54:32: So why can that not mean that we in principle apply what we read in scripture and we just invite people now to the gospel.
54:40: Yeah, we can have churches. It's all in one sense already fulfilled at 70 AD that the bride of Christ is glorified, but in principle, why can't we just implore people outside the gate?
54:51: Revelation 22, um, to come in by faith. Let me, there's a quote there in the, in the chat room.
54:59: It says Ward is actually pastoring a church, which he is. Uh, the point Ward makes is that it's not a command at the same as it was during the period leading up to the tribulation.
55:08: Okay. So I don't have to go to church. It's the perfect escape because it's, you know, it's, and, and I just answered that question in Ephesians until we reach the unity of the faith, that the, the necessity of pastors and evangelists and teachers, we tried like the
55:30: Dickens to get her to get around that. Cause I was pastoring a church as a full predators, uh, for about five years,
55:35: I passed her to church as a full predators. We started a church in St. Petersburg. And for about five years, you know, we had elders, we had the, you know, we had all the trappings of a, of a traditional, you know,
55:46: Presbyterian kind of church. And, uh, my main attacks were coming from full predators as to why we're doing that.
55:55: Because they were, they were anti religious anti -church buildings. And I did not,
56:00: I, I just, I fought that and fought that and fought that. But the problem was, is that I was a full predators and it was very difficult to fight their arguments because they could just read the rep, read, they would tell me, you'll read the rest of Ephesians, you know, you're just chopping off on, but read the rest of it.
56:17: The reason for pastors and teachers is until, until, until we reached the unity of the faith.
56:25: And then after that, we don't need them. Like I said, in the new heavens and new earth, I'm not gonna, I don't need to,
56:31: I don't need to go to pastoral counseling because I've got a sin in my life that I need to deal with and confess. That's there.
56:38: There'll be no more sin. We'll be perfect. I'm not going to need it.
56:47: So that's the disconnect. That's where you have to reinvent a, a, a church now.
56:54: So full predatorism, they want, like you said, they want their cake and then they want their evangelical icing too.
57:00: They want to still play church and they want to be counted as evangelical Orthodox, evangelical, conservative
57:07: Christians, Bible believing, conservative Christians, just like you and me. And I say, no, no, you can't.
57:14: That's your, you are not in the evangelical Orthodox Christian camp. So real quick, you're talking about the word until we reach the unity of the faith that happened before 70
57:25: AD. Right. And so, and first Corinthians chapter 11, very similar language.
57:30: Paul is talking about the importance of coming to the Lord's table. And he says, for as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the
57:41: Lord's death until he comes. okay.
57:46: This is once again, really confusing. why Zach wanting to be a pastor, um, by principle or application, would they just say that they're going to observe the
57:59: Lord's table because he already came? Like what's the mindset? Like to me, it's just blatantly inconsistent.
58:09: I've heard Michael Sullivan say this, tell me your thoughts back when we would have phone conversations. He said, well, it's kind of like the idea of Paul telling
58:16: Timothy, Hey, preach the gospel until I come. And then when he comes, he doesn't mean stop. He just means until I come.
58:23: And I'm like, uh, okay. And, and then I asked Mike Sullivan, I said, yeah, but do you personally think people should partake?
58:31: And he said, no, of course not. And, um, I can't find the other side chat quote, but someone in the
58:39: Greek, there's different uses of the word until, and then there's different constructions. And then of course you have to, so someone tells me, no, it does not mean a full stop.
58:48: So until, so preach the gospel until I come and then stop preaching the gospel. So he's not saying that, but the context there is preaching the gospel.
58:57: So we know from the context that he's not saying that Corinthians, however, you do show forth the Lord's death until he come.
59:04: Um, that's, that's a context of the Lord's table and being administered and what it is that we're doing until he comes.
59:11: Well, when he comes, is that going to change anything? Well, yeah, we're not going to be celebrating this in the new heavens, new earth.
59:18: We're not going to be doing all these things in remembrance of it. This is not going to be happening because these things are full field.
59:26: They've, they've reached their consummation and completion. It's a new heaven, a new earth, and they're trying to buy new heavens, a new earth rhetoric.
59:35: They're trying to bring all of that in to living. Now, the problem is, is that the radical disconnect that that, uh, plays in terms of, again, we're getting back to ward
59:45: Finley, uh, who's perfect. And he said this over and over again. I kept, you know, kind of ridiculing like, well, you're perfect.
59:52: He goes, yeah, I still make mistakes though. Well, then you're not perfect. Well, not biologically for covenant. I'm not biologically perfect, but I'm covenantally perfect.
59:59: Okay. Well, I covenantally go to church then. And I covenantally don't need a pastor. It's just a suggestion.
01:00:08: Now this is something else I ran into Mike Sullivan. He said, Jeremiah, I think I can help your apologetic against the church of Christ.
01:00:15: You know, if you're new to the apologetic dog, that's one of the cult groups that I evangelize with the gospel of grace, that we are looked to Christ alone by faith apart from works.
01:00:25: And he said, baptism in the new Testament is always spirit. Baptism, never water, never meant to be the ordinance or sacrament of water.
01:00:36: And Dr. Frost, I just thought that there's no end to where this train is going to ultimately lead to.
01:00:43: I mean, there's so many clear context in the book of acts. So, uh, that's something else that Zach and I in the past have talked about, but I don't think he's there.
01:00:50: He still wants to be there. He still wants to be a pastor. He still wants to preach of a kind of hope that's realized, but needs to be applied now.
01:00:57: And so, uh, moving on with our clips, like I said, I want to be charitable towards Zach. Uh, we only live a couple of towns apart and I've told him, uh,
01:01:07: Hey, maybe one of these days me and him can have a, you know, a dialogue. He wants to have me on his channel.
01:01:12: Maybe that can happen in the near future. We'll see. Uh, I've been trying to get him to debate me on. There's multiple platforms that we can do that.
01:01:19: Um, that's really more of what I like is I like to have set time. Um, and I do like also times of, you know, we can hang out and talk as well.
01:01:29: So we'll see, but I want to continue on and get your thoughts on this next clip. My conclusions,
01:01:35: Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and the Feast of Tabernacles had to be fulfilled in that 40 year period.
01:01:42: And it was, yeah. So something else, Dr. Frost and, um, his video to me is he's like, look, you got spring feasts in the old covenant, old
01:01:55: Testament scriptures. And then you have the fall feast. The fall feast would be, uh, the trumpets, the day of atonement and the tabernacle, the
01:02:03: Feast of Tabernacles. And something that he said in this little clip was you only have 40 years for the fall feast to be fulfilled.
01:02:13: And I think about that and I want to say why 40 years, right? Last time
01:02:19: I checked, last time I looked, the new covenant is better than the old covenant in every way.
01:02:25: So when you look at Leviticus chapter 23, yes, I get that there's a ton of feasts, but all of those find their fulfillment, their yes and amen in Jesus Christ.
01:02:36: I mean, you may talk about, you know, there, these were time bound to ethnic Israel per se, but we see at least loosely that all of the
01:02:45: Tanakh is pointing to Jesus Christ. And so do I think that the trumpets, the day of atonement and the tabernacles were fulfilled in Christ?
01:02:54: Absolutely. But this goes back to the redemptive historical method of interpretation. The New Testament gets to define how that is fulfilled in Christ.
01:03:03: So do you want to speak to that any? Yeah. When you, you know, dispensationalists use the feast, premillennialists use the feast, post -millennialists use the, you know, everybody uses the feast.
01:03:14: They all use the feast to do whatever it is that they did. John Hickey, he's got a whole series on the feasts and, you know, they all, they all have the thing of the feast.
01:03:23: I've got some books here. You know, this is the piece of Israel. This is a pretty good book,
01:03:28: Bruce Scott, and then Passover, which was a great book. I can go. I just pulled a few of these out of my, out of my library.
01:03:35: Here's the fall feast of Israel is another book. And then God dwells with his people.
01:03:41: It's another look at the feasts and how they're, how Christ fulfilled. And they're all very interesting books. They all, none of them, none of these four books agree on exactly how.
01:03:52: And that's the thing. I don't know. I didn't know that the feasts were necessarily prophetic, and I didn't know that they needed to be fulfilled within a 40 year period of time.
01:04:00: Where is that verse at? The feast must be fulfilled in a 40 year period of time. Says who?
01:04:06: Where? So Jesus, the feast also happened every year.
01:04:12: If you follow the Jewish Jewish calendar, of course, a cyclical calendar just comes around and goes around.
01:04:18: And there are in every feast has sacrifices, blood sacrifices. So they're related.
01:04:24: They're related to deliverance, redemption, forgiveness of sin and atonement and all of these kinds of things.
01:04:31: Right. All right. Well, that was handled at the cross. Yep. Jesus handled everything.
01:04:36: He fulfilled the feasts right then and there at the cross. Now, I don't know about you, but we know that the
01:04:43: Day of Atonement is referred to in reference to the cross of Jesus in the book of Hebrews.
01:04:48: But Jesus died during the Feast of Passover. Well, Passover and the Day of Atonement don't happen in the same time.
01:04:54: Last I checked. So that means to me that Jesus fulfilled Passover.
01:05:00: He fulfilled the Day of Atonement. He fulfilled all the sacrificial feasts in a single day.
01:05:06: He consumed them all. They're all fulfilled in him so that they no longer need to be applied from that point on.
01:05:13: Jeremiah says this. I'm going to make a new covenant with the house of Israel, the house of Judah, and it will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when
01:05:25: I took them by the hand and to bring them out of the land of Egypt, a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband.
01:05:32: This is the covenant that I shall make with the house of Israel after those days. So right there is telling me that it's not going to be like.
01:05:40: Well, Jesus clearly on the night that he was betrayed, inaugurated, he states it.
01:05:47: This is a new covenant that I make. And in the blood of Christ, the book of Hebrews goes through this, but all of the feasts and the sacrifices and all of the blood, all of those, they're all fulfilled in the cross of Jesus Christ.
01:05:59: One man at one place at one time fulfilled all of those feasts. They're, they're done.
01:06:05: That's it. They've, they've reached their Zenith in Jesus Christ. Christ is the S and then the, and the amen so that we no longer.
01:06:13: And at that point, no longer have to. And Paul didn't require the Gentiles to continue the festivals and the feast.
01:06:22: In fact, in Galatians, he's decidedly against it. Now, Paul was still under the idea that the old covenant was still in existence and still in force.
01:06:31: He wouldn't have written the letter of Galatians, but clearly he's for him.
01:06:40: The Gentile not becoming circumcised is a sign that the new covenant has been inaugurated and has arrived.
01:06:49: It's that, that to him is a, that's, that is a proof. And if that's the case, then it is not a covenant that is like the ones in the past.
01:06:59: It will not be like the ones when I land you out of the hand of Egypt, exclusive. That's explicitly referring to the covenant of Moses.
01:07:07: So Jeremiah is telling us right there, this covenant, this new covenant is not going to be like that covenant.
01:07:12: When I led you out of the hand of Egypt. Well, what covenant is that? That's all the festivals and the feasts and all of it.
01:07:18: So when Paul preaches new covenant, when he's preaching these types of things, second Corinthians, that's why he doesn't compel the
01:07:25: Gentiles to become circumcised. Because what you're doing there is blending the new and the old.
01:07:32: You don't want to do that. If Christ would have availed you nothing.
01:07:39: But if Christ is the fulfillment of the covenants and in the Holy Spirit, Christ is manifest through the
01:07:44: Holy Spirit. Then you have everything that you need. You've got the spirit. You have the fullness of the covenant, which is given to us through Jesus Christ, who is the fulfiller of the covenants and has all power and authority to do such things because he's inaugurated the new covenant.
01:07:59: And so once you see that, and that's been pretty traditional in the history of the church.
01:08:06: So that idea that Jesus, now they have an overlap of covenants.
01:08:14: They've got the new covenant going on inaugurally. And at the same time, they've got the old covenant going on until it has ended in 80, 70.
01:08:23: And that to me is just utterly ridiculous and just does not work, but they have to do that because they're 70, 80 hermeneutics demands it.
01:08:33: I did it. I preached an overlap of the covenants. When I was a full fronterist, I preached that the old covenant, new covenant overlap.
01:08:39: And for a while in the transition period from Jesus's ascension to 70 AD, that transition 40 year period, which is what he's referring to here.
01:08:48: That's the transitional period from old to new. Well, then you have to have the old covenant still in force.
01:08:57: Well, then can you please explain to me why Paul is not compelling the Gentiles to be circumcised because the
01:09:05: Gentiles are to be circumcised. Genesis chapter 17. Ask any
01:09:12: Jew who goes to the Jerusalem council and states quite plainly, we do not believe that these
01:09:18: Gentiles can be saved unless they follow the customs of Moses and are circumcised.
01:09:26: That was the debate real quick. Dr. Frost. So we're talking about the feast of booths or, you know, all, all the, the festival, um, all the festivals they're pointing to Christ, right?
01:09:42: And so remind me, all of those festivals were within Sabbath keeping,
01:09:49: And so the book of Hebrews, the gospel of Matthew tells us that we can have a
01:09:55: Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ by faith. And so once again, the redemptive historical method of interpretation says the new
01:10:04: Testament gets to define how these were types and shadows that ultimately found their yes and amen in Jesus Christ.
01:10:11: And so this was something we've talked about on the phone before, but the day of atonement for the full preterist is not at the cross at Calvary, but at 70
01:10:22: AD. Is that right? Yeah. Can you explain why that is?
01:10:27: They ultimately have to have the fullness of redemption occurring in 70 AD. I mean, that's, that's, well, it seems absurd that you, that, you know, that John the
01:10:42: Baptist said, behold, the lame of God that takes away the sin of the world, like he understood the atonement involved with Jesus's ministry.
01:10:51: And that happened at the cross. Later, we'll get into maybe some of the context of Daniel chapter nine, but I just, for the life of me,
01:11:00: I can't understand how a swift destruction on Jerusalem, right, is actually the day of atonement when clearly
01:11:09: Jesus accomplished that at Calvary. So I know everything has to be, Zach doesn't like me say shoehorn in 70
01:11:15: AD, but from our paradigm to us, that just does not make any sense.
01:11:21: The other thing is to the Jew, the destruction of the Jerusalem temple was, that was a judgment of God. So they viewed that purely through, you can read the literature.
01:11:31: The Jews didn't, they saw that as a punishment of God for their, for their sins. This is in the
01:11:37: Talmud and Midrash and all of the, all of that kind of material post 70
01:11:42: AD and the scattering of the land. These are all water stated in the covenant that God would do.
01:11:48: He would bring a nation upon them. He would destroy the temple and he would expel them from the land.
01:11:55: So far, God is acting in terms of covenant, whether it's covenant judgment, cursing, or whether it's covenant blessing, but he's still acting in terms of the covenant.
01:12:05: So there's an interesting thing that happens. In, in, in Deuteronomy four, and I've, I've brought this up to many, uh, full preterists and none of them have a, an answer to it.
01:12:20: Um, it's, it's, it's stated pretty plainly in Deuteronomy four.
01:12:30: It states that in the last days, that God is going to bring about a, uh, they're not going to.
01:12:43: Yeah. It says, uh, when you have children, your children's children become complacent in the land.
01:12:49: If you act correctly, making an end, that's doing what is evil in the sight of the Lord. I will call heaven and earth as a witness against you.
01:12:56: And you will perish out from the land. The Lord will scatter you. There's, there's the scattering. Now this is covenant language.
01:13:04: Basically God is saying, you're my people. And if you do wrong, I'm going to punish you. Why? Because you're my people.
01:13:11: And that's what I do to my people. I punish them. Okay. I've got, I'm going to scatter you and you will be left among the nations where the
01:13:18: Lord will lead you. And there you will serve God's. And from there, from there, from the land where they are scattered, they're not in the land of Israel.
01:13:31: They're in the land of the nations. From there, you will seek the Lord, your God, and you will find him.
01:13:37: If you search after him with all of your heart and soul in your distress. Now the
01:13:42: Hebrew there is in the tribulation in the tribulation. When all these things have happened to you in the last days, you will return to the
01:13:54: Lord, your God, and heed him. So where are they in the last days? Well, they're scattered.
01:14:00: They're among the nations. So when Paul writes Romans nine through 11, he's talking about the scattering of Israel.
01:14:07: And he's asking the question, has God rejected his people? Then he says, by no means, if they cry out to him and seek him while scattered among the nations,
01:14:17: God will, as anyone who calls on the name of the Lord, whether Jew or Greek, God will save them through Jesus Christ, our
01:14:27: Lord. This is, this is all going on in Romans, Romans nine through 11. And then it says in the tribulation, when all these things have happened to you in the last days, you will return to the
01:14:38: Lord, your God, and heed him. Now this is while they're in the scattered lands. Well, first of all, and he will need netless.
01:14:48: He will neither abandon you nor destroy you, nor will he forget the covenant with your ancestors that he swore.
01:14:57: So you tell me to God, abandon Israel, that he, that he obliterate them and abandon them. And he's done with them.
01:15:05: No, if he is, if, if God did that, then I have no hope because I don't know that he might not abandon me.
01:15:12: I might do something so bad that God just might abandon me. But here you have God promising them.
01:15:18: I'm going to be with you, even though you do all these things at the end of Leviticus 26, even though you do all these things yet,
01:15:24: I will remember my covenant. Because I am a merciful God. I'm a God of compassion. Paul writes, what will their acceptance be?
01:15:32: But life from the dead resurrection of the dead. That's what Paul is viewing in the future is resurrection.
01:15:39: Now, who's going to be raised in the dead? Everyone from Adam until the last day. Well, does that include ethnic
01:15:46: Israel? That includes all the tribes. That includes everybody that's ever died.
01:15:52: Naphtali, Dan, the Rubenites. Now, are there any believers among the Danites and the
01:15:57: Rubenites and Ishmaelites and the Naphtali lights and the, you know,
01:16:02: Matt, the Ishakar lights and all the different tribes that we have. Were there any believers, true, faithful, true believers in those tribes that are now long dead?
01:16:15: Are they promised to be raised from the dead? Yes. And what will they inherit? Well, what
01:16:21: God promised them. The land forever. Resurrection. This is what
01:16:26: Paul is seeing. So if God has cut his Israel and his promises, and he's cut off the promises to Israel, then none of us are saved.
01:16:33: But he ends Romans 11 with all Israel will be saved. God is going to raise them from the dead.
01:16:38: He's also going to raise all the nations from the dead. And those nations that have been drafted into Israel's promises, into Israel's covenants, into Israel's hope, into Israel's patriarchs, into Israel's heritage.
01:16:50: They too will glory with in fulfillment of scriptures. And that day, all the nations from every tribe, language, nation, and people will all be rejoicing in God's creation without sin, without fault.
01:17:04: They will know that I am God. I will be the Lord. They will be my people. And that's the end of that. And I can't wait for it.
01:17:10: It's the hope, Jeremiah, that we strive for when we labor in our churches and we labor with people who are struggling in their lives and in pastoral counseling and what it is they're going through.
01:17:21: We, we visit the hospitals and I know that you're in hospice. We labor in death.
01:17:26: We labor in pain. We labor in discomfort to bring comfort. And that labor is not in vain.
01:17:33: It is not in vain because you're doing it unto a hope of restoration, transformation, and resurrection that one day death will be swallowed up anymore.
01:17:42: And there'll be no more need for your job. Hospice will be done. You won't need it anymore.
01:17:47: No more grieving, no more death. That's our hope. That's what we labor for. And if we keep our eyes on that vision in these tumultuous times of turmoil, my eyes are on Jesus.
01:18:02: My eyes are on the prize. My eyes are kept in him in the midst of all the chaos that's all around me.
01:18:08: And I keep my faith in that. My vision is made alive. The light of God continues to keep me going.
01:18:15: Even when I'm, I have every reason, every, I could be an atheist and have every reason to leave the church and be, be just disgruntled with the church, be disappointed with the church that I have every, and I'm sure
01:18:36: Jeremiah, you could come up with any, every reason this isn't working. The church isn't growing.
01:18:41: We're, you know, we're, we're working so hard to get people into the church. They're just, they're not coming in droves the way that we, but yet you continue to labor.
01:18:50: Why? Because it's not about you. It's not about you. It, it's about the gospel.
01:18:57: It's about what God is all around the world bringing about. And you are playing a part of that in Arkansas, in your little neck of the woods.
01:19:06: You're, you're playing a part of that gigantic, huge narrative story. And if I don't know if that encourages me, that, that just,
01:19:13: I wake up in the morning thinking about this, just praise God, Maranatha, Lord Jesus come, give me strength to help me into labor, not to be discouraged.
01:19:23: That helped me to be encouraging to those that are filled with discouragement. Somebody even leaving the church because they're so discouraged.
01:19:30: And then the other avenue is, is you go off to this pie in the sky, kind of fantasy covenantal spiritualism of full preterism, because you think that's the answer for the whole thing.
01:19:40: And it's not, it's just adding to the problem. And the problem is, is that there's evil and destruction and death and sin all around us.
01:19:48: That's the problem. And the full predators doesn't have a solution to that. They don't.
01:19:53: So something I want to piggyback off what you're saying. So just so Zach hears me. Oh, that's good.
01:19:59: We need to hear the gospel. I mean, especially for those that are resting in Christ. I mean, we never graduate from the gospel.
01:20:06: You know what I mean? Our hearts are removed, renewed every day. And so Zach, I do not believe that there's any scriptural precedent, even in the
01:20:14: Old Testament, that mandates that Jesus fulfill these feasts in 40 years.
01:20:22: Like Dr. Frost and I have already been discussing, all of that culminated with Jesus's sacrifice on the cross.
01:20:31: now this is the thing, as we're going to play in this next clip, you cannot confuse law, the old covenant that possessed mainly law, do this and you shall live, which kills and damns.
01:20:44: You cannot confuse law with promise, or you cannot confuse law and grace.
01:20:52: And so the new covenant gets to define how Jesus fulfills these Old Testament types and shadows.
01:20:59: For example, when we look at Pentecost, well, Acts gets to tell us how Jesus fulfills us by sending his spirit, you know, prophesied in Joel chapter two.
01:21:10: That is a promise of the new covenant. And so that's my big argument to Zach, is you don't get to look to the
01:21:19: Old Testament and then say, well, this was, you know, fulfilled annually right within, you know, a 40 day time period or what have you.
01:21:28: And then that has to necessarily be the pattern in the new covenant.
01:21:33: Because last I checked, the new covenant is better than the old covenant in every way. So I think he's going to touch on some of these points again,
01:21:40: Dr. Frost. So I'm going to give him a minute or so. I think this is one of the longer clips where I want him to be able to kind of state his case.
01:21:48: Jesus said in Luke 21, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, and this is the judgment, this is your battle of Armageddon, I take it, then know that it's desolation is near.
01:21:58: And this is Rome coming to judge and destroy Old Covenant Israel system. Jesus continues, these are the days of vengeance, which is predicted everywhere on the covenant,
01:22:07: Old Covenant apostates in the Old Testament, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
01:22:13: What things? The same things that Paul taught, nothing other found in the Old Testament. Everything that he taught, including trumpets, day of atonement, and tabernacles.
01:22:23: Assuredly, I say to you, when would it happen? This generation will by no means pass away until all these things take place.
01:22:31: Yeah, that wasn't the exact clip I was thinking of, but this is one of those proof texts where it says that basically all the things prophesied in the
01:22:41: Old Testament have to be fulfilled when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies.
01:22:47: So you lived this. Why is this such a proof text, and how is it abused? Well, it's it's it's three verses taken out of a larger pericope that's there, and you read the again, read the whole thing.
01:23:02: So when you read the whole thing, it says, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that it's it's desolation has drawn nigh.
01:23:12: Then those in Judea. Now, let me let me back up something right there, but here's a here's a big, giant, huge problem.
01:23:23: I can defeat a full preterist right now in this one verse. When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that it's desolation has come nigh.
01:23:34: Until then. You could not say has come nigh. Only when you see the army surrounding, then you can preach the language of it's desolation has come nigh, or it is near or it is at hand.
01:23:50: Okay. Why is Jesus preaching that in 33 or 31
01:23:56: AD in Mark chapter one in verse 15? Kingdom of God is at hand.
01:24:03: Now, fat hand in 31 AD. I don't see any army surrounding Jerusalem there. You're not to say this until you see the army surrounding
01:24:11: Jerusalem, then know that it is nigh. Well, what's
01:24:17: James talking about? Writing probably 48 AD somewhere around there, talking about that.
01:24:22: It is nigh. It is at hand. Well, James, you can't say that the city is not being surrounded by any armies yet.
01:24:33: You're about 20 some years off. They don't have an answer for them because they have a lot of eminent statements that are found in the lips of Jesus and in the lips of Paul and acts about 30, 27 years or so before any army.
01:24:51: Now, if you would have told a Roman army or somebody centurion or somebody in 48
01:24:56: AD that they were going to surround Jerusalem and destroy one of their key cities that they gave, that they've received taxation from a great deal of wealth from, and that the
01:25:08: Romans who were all about Pax Romana, that they were going to go to war with the
01:25:13: Jews and all the expenditures that it takes in war and all the costs that it takes and that they were going to destroy a city that they commissioned
01:25:21: Herod to build through taxation and everything else. And 40 and just a few years later, after they had completed that, they were going to, they're going to go and destroy it.
01:25:29: The Roman centurion would look at you like you were nuts. Why would we do this? Why would we destroy
01:25:37: Jerusalem? that's not on our map. We're not going to do that. And you couldn't say that until the armies are surrounded.
01:25:45: So in 48 AD, the armies weren't surrounding him. And when Jesus was talking about the end of that hand, the armies weren't surrounding him.
01:25:52: So you can't use it's about to be the son of man is about to come. Well, if that's 70
01:25:59: AD, you're 30 years off. Jesus is 30 years off. And then he says, well, you can't really say that until you see it surrounded by the armies.
01:26:07: And that didn't happen until 66. And then you could say, yeah, that is a hand.
01:26:13: Anyway, I appreciate that. Then those in Judea, the fleet of the mountains and those inside the city must leave it.
01:26:21: And those out of the country must not enter for these are days of vengeance as a fulfillment of all that is written.
01:26:29: Woe to those who are pregnant and nursing infants in those days, for there will be great tribulation on the earth and wrath against this people.
01:26:36: Okay. They will fall by the edge of the sword. All right. They will be taken captives. Remember what
01:26:41: I read in Deuteronomy four. Among all, among all the nations, that's in Deuteronomy four.
01:26:48: And Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until, until the times of the nations are fulfilled.
01:27:00: So the times of the nations and the days of vengeance in order that all be fulfilled. Well, how long is that?
01:27:07: Now, does this include the nations? Is it just about Israel? No. Read the next verse. There will be signs in the sun, the moon and the stars on the earth.
01:27:16: Distress among nations, confused by the roaring of the sea and the waves. People.
01:27:23: He's not talking about just Israel anymore. People will faint from fear and the foreboding of what is coming upon the world.
01:27:32: Days of vengeance to fulfill all. Well, how long are these days of vengeance? Resist not evil with evil.
01:27:43: God is a God of vengeance. The Paul's writing to the Romans. Is he talking just about Jews not having vengeance against the right?
01:27:49: No, he's talking. That's, that's a leave, not give not place for wrath. For God is a
01:27:54: God of vengeance and rather bless those that persecute you. Why? Because these are the days of God is the
01:28:00: God. He's the Avenger. He still is, by the way. People will faint from fear foreboding what is coming upon the world for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
01:28:12: So. Now, what the full Prentice will do here is that they'll take the world as, well, that's the
01:28:21: Jewish world. That's the covenantal Jewish world. And. Just call them on their bluff on that and say that's that's now you're reading.
01:28:29: Now you're just reading into the text. That's that is not there. Secondly, we've got the language of creation going on here.
01:28:37: This is this is what's coming upon among the nations. What are the nations?
01:28:44: The nations are those to whom Israel has been scattered. They're still
01:28:51: Israel. They're just scattered among the nations. Deuteronomy four. And in the last days, when you're scattered among the nations, and if you call out and if you seek me.
01:29:03: I will be found by you because I have not forgotten you. This is Romans 11. There are enemies on account of the gospel, but on account of election.
01:29:13: They're beloved. God is still saving Jews. He's still he's old. Every generation has had
01:29:19: Jews that have come to Yeshua as Hamashiach. They've come to recognize that. I don't think
01:29:25: Paul's talking about a nationalistic geo United Nations Israel. I don't think he's got that in his discussion.
01:29:32: Whatsoever. But he does have in discussion individual branches. Jews that call upon the name of Yeshua and recognize that Yeshua is
01:29:43: Adonai. Yeshua is Lord Jesus is Lord and that God has raised him from the dead and that what is being taught in the gospel, according to the
01:29:51: Jewish apostles, is absolutely true. And he gives his life to the Lord. Does God save the
01:29:56: Jewish birth? Absolutely. Why wouldn't he? As he as he cut them off as they're scattered among the nations.
01:30:04: Read Deuteronomy four. Read Leviticus 26. No, he hasn't cut them off as the as the promises of God failed because God has scattered his people.
01:30:14: God forbid. Paul says he has a promised resurrection life for them, and he has a promised resurrection life for those that are joined in with their covenants, their promises, their hopes, their patriarchs.
01:30:29: Sign me up. I want to get in their book of life. I want to. I want to inherit the promises made to Abraham to be blessings to all the families of the earth.
01:30:39: I want to inherit that promise. Sign me up. How do I become a child of Abraham? That's Galatians.
01:30:47: Abraham, by the Holy Spirit. That's how Isaac and Jacob and Daniel and Isaiah became children of Isaiah or became children of Abraham because they had the
01:30:58: Holy Spirit. And you have the Holy Spirit. You Gentiles have the Holy Spirit, your children of Abraham, too, because that's what made
01:31:05: Abraham a child of God. What made him a child of God is because he had the Holy Spirit because he was regenerate because the scripture says that he believed and God credited to him as righteousness.
01:31:20: Well, how did Abraham believe in God to be credited by faith? What is faith?
01:31:25: Faith is a gift. Faith is an operation of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit in your heart, in your life.
01:31:33: Abraham had that. He saw God, the maker of heaven and earth, and God said, you're going to have a son. And he believed.
01:31:39: And God said, righteous. Well, how do I get it? How do I become like that?
01:31:46: By faith. It's always been by faith. That's what he's saying. This message is
01:31:52: Paul is Jewish. And he's saying, my brothers, my Jewish brothers,
01:31:58: I was raised in this. I know this. I taught it. My father was a
01:32:03: Pharisee. I'm a Pharisee. I know this backwards and forwards. And what I'm teaching to you by faith is what the
01:32:09: Tanakh has always taught. God saves by faith through grace. He justifies those who are ungodly by their faith.
01:32:18: The Habakkuk, our great prophet, says that just shall live by faith. He's not inventing something.
01:32:25: He's preaching the gospel in the pages of the Tanakh. It's the
01:32:30: Jews that are rejecting the message of Isaiah. It's the Jews that are rejecting the message of their
01:32:36: Jewish prophet, Jeremiah. They're rejecting it. As Stephen said, you've always resisted the
01:32:42: Holy Spirit. Your forefathers have always resisted the Holy Spirit. What does that mean?
01:32:49: Does that mean the Holy Spirit was working during the times of what we call the Old Testament?
01:32:55: You better believe he was. Did some of them resist the Holy Spirit? Yes. Do people resist the
01:33:01: Holy Spirit today? Absolutely. This opens up the whole...
01:33:07: And now the Bible just comes alive. I can relate to David. I can relate to these characters.
01:33:13: These things were written as my example. The Bible is a living and active. I can see myself in the story.
01:33:20: I look at the Bible and I see a mirror of myself. It's talking directly to me, a sinner that needs to cry out to God, to a merciful, loving, compassionate
01:33:29: God who saves all those who call upon his name in faith, whether Jew, Daniel, or whether Gentile, Naaman, Ruth, the
01:33:43: Syrophoenician woman, that Elijah. It's always been there.
01:33:49: And Noah. Noah wasn't a Jew. Noah, it says, everyone around him was sinful and wicked, but Noah found grace.
01:33:59: Noah was saved by grace. The gospel is right there.
01:34:06: How does God save us? By grace. Has he ever saved by works? No. You couldn't pile up enough good works.
01:34:14: You can pile up all the good works you want to, and that's just not going to tip the balance for the righteousness of God.
01:34:21: Thank you for preaching that gospel, Dr. Frost. Zach Davis has some more questions, so let me play the next clip, and then we'll get into it.
01:34:33: More questions. Is the Old Covenant system still in play? Because if Christ hasn't fulfilled it yet, which he hasn't in any futurist paradigm, is the
01:34:42: Old Covenant system still in play so that he can fulfill that? And if you ask any Christian around, it doesn't matter pre -meal, all -meal, post -meal, they're going to say, no, the
01:34:51: Old Covenant system's not around. Then, how can Jesus fulfill these final three feast days?
01:34:58: And I would ask, are we going to get back to a dispensational paradigm? Because really the pre -meals are the only ones that discuss the idea of rebuilding a temple system so that the three final feast days can be fulfilled.
01:35:11: Will the temple system be reinstituted? And in Jeremiah's amillennial position, that's not the case.
01:35:17: The amillennials don't believe, to the best of my understanding, that you're going to have this idea of this system.
01:35:26: If so, I think there's at least a split in the all -meal camp for those who would take that. And I'm not sure where Jeremiah is on that, to be fair.
01:35:33: Thank you for being fair, Zach. So, I'll go through these bullet points, and Dr.
01:35:39: Frost, you follow me up. Is the Old Covenant system still in play today? I would say absolutely not.
01:35:45: Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant, right? We read the book of Hebrews. It's obsolete for a reason.
01:35:51: It was insufficient to save. I would say it was a ministry of death that killed.
01:35:57: Now, we're going to shift here in a moment to something that, once again, I think Zach misses, is the
01:36:03: Old Covenant contained promises of the New Covenant that was still to come.
01:36:10: And so the New Testament gets to define how those
01:36:15: New Covenant promises are fulfilled. And so that's really where we're going to part ways.
01:36:22: How can Jesus fulfill the final three feasts? Well, he does it by sending his spirit.
01:36:29: He inaugurates his kingdom. He inaugurates the
01:36:34: New Covenant in his blood. And then he builds the temple by sending the spirit to indwell the saints.
01:36:43: How do I get this? Well, I look at the New Covenant and its terms to tell me how it was going to fulfill the promise that was contained within the
01:36:51: Old Covenant. So no, we don't see, Dr. Frost, and you can speak to this here in just a second, we don't see a temple the way that we read in the
01:37:00: Old Testament needing to be reconstructed. That's the church. Christ is plundering the strong man's goods by regenerating hearts.
01:37:11: And 1 Peter 2 talks about that we are stones in a household being built up.
01:37:17: And so that's what I see is, yes, a new temple is indwelling the saints, meaning that our bodies are bought with the price.
01:37:25: We have the actual indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We have God with us, right?
01:37:31: And so we are living in this time that, yes, the kingdom is here, but you can't see it unless you have an eye of faith, right?
01:37:38: I think it's Romans 14, 17, that the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking and being merry, but is righteousness, peace, and joy in the
01:37:47: Holy Spirit. And so once again, the new covenant gets to define how Christ fulfills these types and shadows contained in the
01:37:56: Old Testament. What do you think? I think that's all correct. I mean,
01:38:01: I don't have a real issue with it. This is the strong man that is raised, and they bring up this old covenant system still, and then how can we fulfill?
01:38:10: I'm not under any obligation to fulfill. Where do we come up with this, that the final three feasts have got to be fulfilled?
01:38:19: Where is this? I didn't know that the feasts were prophetic. Now, if we look at the word fulfilled, how are you using the word?
01:38:30: This is the standard theological dictionary of the New Testament, and I know that this goes over the heads of full preterists.
01:38:38: It's a big, giant book. This is just one volume out of a 10, and on the article of Plerot and Pleroma, which is the word for fulfill or fill or bring fullness.
01:38:49: There's about 30 pages here on that one word in this book.
01:38:57: In other words, it has a lot of meaning to it. It's used in a variety of ways. So I'd like to know where does this have to be fulfilled?
01:39:08: Where are the feasts ever uttered as being prophetic, like giving a prophecy that this and this is going to happen, and then when it does, say, hey.
01:39:17: So, Dr. Frost, I think what Zach would say is, well, doesn't all of the
01:39:22: Old Covenant find its yes and amen in Jesus? And my big pushback is yes, but the
01:39:29: New Testament gets to define what that looks like. You can't take Old Testament patterns and force that into what the
01:39:38: New Testament has to say. And so I'm with you. There's no explicit teaching in the
01:39:44: Old Testament saying Jesus Christ has to fulfill this within 40 years, sort of.
01:39:50: No, they create this out of Hebrews. They create, and then they, the main, where this argument starts is
01:40:02: Matthew 5, 18. Think not that I came to destroy the law, but I came to fulfill.
01:40:08: Not one jot or tittle shall pass until all things are fulfilled. So that's the basis of this argument right here.
01:40:15: And then Don Preston will flail his arms wildly and thinks that he's got some big, giant point here that unless you believe that Jesus has fulfilled the law and the prophets, then we're still in the jots and the tittles of the
01:40:29: Old Covenant. That's a logical non sequitur, by the way. It's bad logic to infer that, and that's why nobody does infer that except for the forefathers, who think that they actually got some sort of legitimate point that was missed for 1 ,900 years.
01:40:42: Nobody saw that. Dr. Frost, let me put you on pause because I think this is the next clip that Zach gets into.
01:40:51: Let me double check. I have some questions that I think would be fair push. Let me see. Here we go.
01:40:57: Here we go. There it is. Okay. So I figured now it'd be as... So Zach fulfilled.
01:41:07: Okay. Yeah, so you know it's coming, and so let me back this up. And so I want us to talk about this because I have some notes here that I want, and we've been kind of setting the garden path to really nail this down, but I want to answer it clearly to Zach that this verse does not mean what he thinks it means.
01:41:24: I want to talk about it. And if we were to grant his position, let's be consistent. If heaven and earth pass away is such covenantal language, let's go with the first place that that was ever mentioned because I bet
01:41:37: Zach's going to switch hermeneutics when it comes to that. But let's see what he has to say here. Covenant.
01:42:11: Let me say this another way.
01:42:20: Until everything was fulfilled, everything that was in that law had to be fulfilled in order for it to pass away.
01:42:27: That's the only way that's around that. You can't have Old Covenant Israel not on the scene anymore if everything including trumpets,
01:42:38: Day of Atonement, and tabernacles are not fulfilled. All right, let me get first cracks,
01:42:44: Dr. Frost. Okay. So when we read here in the opening in Jesus' great
01:42:53: Sermon on the Mount, this is a beautiful verse. He talks about, So we're going to see both great continuity and discontinuity with the
01:43:09: Old Covenant and New Covenant. Jesus is not saying forget about everything that was ever taught.
01:43:15: Jesus is saying, no, that's the foundation for everything. I've come to fulfill it. So perhaps
01:43:21: Zach would be with me at that point. Let me deal with the last part of verse 18 and then we'll go back to, till heaven and earth pass away.
01:43:46: So something I think Zach is doing is I think he's conflating law and promise.
01:43:52: The law is 613 commands. Half of them are positive. Half of them are negative.
01:43:57: Do this and you'll live. Don't do this and you'll reap cursings. Okay. So that's the law in a nutshell.
01:44:04: Galatians 3 said, oh yeah. If you're going to try to keep some of the law, you have to keep all of it and good luck because you can't do it.
01:44:11: So you have law, but then within the Old Covenant contains promises that Jesus is going to fulfill and the
01:44:23: New Testament is going to tell us what it looks like. Jesus also fulfilled the law, meaning you have the laws given to Israel.
01:44:31: He was a Jew so he fulfilled those perfectly. Jesus fulfilled the civil virtue of the law and he fulfilled perfectly the transcendent moral character of that law.
01:44:43: So Jesus fulfilled the law and what I think Zach is conflating and I hope if Zach listens to this,
01:44:50: I'm not trying to be mean by saying this, but I think you're confusing the promises contained in the
01:44:56: Old Covenant with the laws itself. When we're talking about how Jesus fulfills the promises contained in the
01:45:03: Old Covenant, well the New Covenant gets to define those terms, right? This is where the redemptive historical method or hermeneutic gets to say, look, the
01:45:14: New Testament is the best interpreter of the Old Testament scriptures. And so before we dive into heaven and earth, what do you think about how the full preterist looks at by no means will pass from the law till all is fulfilled?
01:45:30: Maybe you can shed some light on that. Well again, you know, reading from the theological dictionary, and this is, and you know this
01:45:39: Jeremiah as a pastor, this is the standard reference with Greek terms and their usage and the way that the terms are used.
01:45:49: So fulfill has multiple usages of it. One of it is, it's not, you know, this will happen and then that will happen and then when it happens, then it's fulfilled.
01:45:57: That's one way it's used. Another, the meaning of the word plurao though, the meaning of that word is to fill, to bring out its fullness, to bring the fullness of what it is that it's stating and that it was something that was incomplete, like a glass half empty, and you're filling up that glass, you're bringing it to its fullness.
01:46:21: You understand that? Yeah. And when Jesus comes, let's say the Feast of Tabernacles or the
01:46:27: Feast of, let's say the Day of Atonement, the Day of Atonement was lacking something.
01:46:33: I've come to fill that lack. I'm the atonement.
01:46:39: I'm going to be the atonement. The multiple sacrifices that had to be offered on the
01:46:48: Feast of Trumpets and the Feast of Tabernacles, you know, just multiple daily sacrifices during like a 14 -day period, all these sacrifices that had to be offered and everything, that was lacking something.
01:47:01: That wasn't full. I've come to fill it. And then you don't have to do that anymore because it's full.
01:47:14: And so my yoke is easy, my burden is light. You still have to have atonement.
01:47:22: Got to have it. Without the shedding of blood, there's no forgiveness of sins. The law says that. But the law was not, it was not complete.
01:47:31: The law says, without the shedding of blood, there's no remission of sins.
01:47:37: But the law could not bring about the perfection that was needed. I've come to fill it.
01:47:44: I've come to fill the law. I've come to bring the law to its full expression of what is meant without the remission or without the shedding of blood, there's no remission of sins.
01:47:54: I'm the fullness of what that is. I'm the fullness of the law. It's not, as you said, the doing away of the law.
01:48:01: It's bringing it into its reality from its shadow. It's bringing it into its full application, which,
01:48:10: Zach, applies to me today in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, the
01:48:18: Lamb of God, the fullness presently as we speak, the fullness of the law as we speak.
01:48:29: That's not something that ended in 70 A .D. That's something that Jesus, through his blood, applied and continues to apply.
01:48:36: What is he applying? The fullness of the law. It's a very high view of scripture. Jesus is making very sure,
01:48:43: Matthew, to his Jewish readers, I've not come to strike out anything from the
01:48:48: Tanakh. Nothing will be struck out of the writings of the Tanakh. Now, notice he says,
01:48:54: Iota, Ajat, and Tittle. So we're dealing with texts here, a text out of the scriptures, the writings.
01:49:04: I've not come to do away with any of that. So every book that the Jews read from Genesis to Malachi, all of those books are intact.
01:49:15: Don't get rid of any of them. Don't get rid of any of the words. I'm not here to strike out any words. I'm not here to pull out any portions.
01:49:22: I'm not here to do any of those types of things. I'm here to bring about the fullness of them. Heaven and Earth will not pass away until I bring about the fullness of all that the scriptures say, the full reality, the full promises, the full on board reality.
01:49:41: From Genesis to Malachi, I'm going to bring about the fullness. Now, is this done in an instant?
01:49:51: Well, and there will be a king born in a manger in Bethlehem.
01:49:58: Micah says that. Jesus fulfilled that. And that's it. There's no double fulfillment.
01:50:05: There's not going to be another baby born in a manger in Bethlehem. That's it. Do we strike that out of our
01:50:12: Bibles because that's reached its fullness? No. Why not?
01:50:17: Well, there's a few other things that need to be fulfilled, like Isaiah 53. Okay.
01:50:24: Well, there's two. So Isaiah 53. All right. Now, is that a double fulfillment? Is there going to be another crucifixion and another son of God that's going to come and die on the cross?
01:50:32: No, that's a one -time fulfillment. Okay, do we strike out the jots and the tittles of Isaiah 53 because it's fulfilled?
01:50:39: So do we rip it out? No. I've not come to do that.
01:50:45: Why not? I've come to bring about the fullness of all from Genesis to Malachi.
01:50:52: So there is a progression that's going on there. That's going on through time and space until, and we're given the time when the fullness, the wholeness of all the promises are made manifest to all the families of the earth promised to Abraham in blessings.
01:51:10: No more curses. Blessings. That time is coming. That's what we labor and strive for is that time.
01:51:18: Peace on earth. That's what we labor for.
01:51:24: And that time will bring the fullness of all that God has promised because he's promised peace on earth.
01:51:31: No more death, no more sin, no more evil, no more wickedness, no more any of those things. Everything is full filled.
01:51:39: That makes total sense to me. And what it does mean is, okay, so I've done away with the old covenant.
01:51:46: You know, there's a lot of covenants in the Bible. The covenant made with Moses is just, that's just one covenant.
01:51:54: There's several covenants. He didn't do away with the Abrahamic covenant at the cross. Did he do away with the covenant made to Jacob?
01:52:04: Did he do away with the covenant that was made to Noah? He made a covenant with Noah and that involved creation.
01:52:12: The Mosaic covenant is just one covenant. And he can bring about the fullness of that covenant, but you still have these other covenants.
01:52:22: You still got these other promises that Jeremiah has been talking about. And these have to be brought to their fullness.
01:52:29: So just because the fullness of the old covenant is brought about at the end of the cross, that doesn't mean that he's fulfilled the entire fullness of Genesis to Malachi.
01:52:40: That would be insane to reason that way. And nobody does except the full
01:52:45: Fretterist because they have to. See the 70 AD forces them into this very strange interpretation.
01:52:54: And I would say strained interpretation of Matthew 5 18 that nobody has ever, no one has read it that way ever because that's not what it means.
01:53:03: But they have to create this because you have fulfillment. And I'll stop here because you have fulfillment.
01:53:09: I've come to fulfill and all prophecy is fulfilled in the days of vengeance 70
01:53:16: AD. So they are forced to have the fullness of Genesis through Malachi and everything that it means fulfilled by the time of 70
01:53:26: AD. And that is a non sequitur. It's a straw. It's it's it's a it's a system that is created by a vicious press of vicious prejudice that everything has to be fulfilled by 70
01:53:37: AD. And that includes Matthew 5 18. So they got to go back to Matthew 5 18 and read this rather strange way of reading it that nobody on planet
01:53:47: Earth has ever read like that before. And then they create this. Well, you must still be in the old covenant. Well, I'm not in the old covenant.
01:53:54: And now I've got you hooked in. Well, then if you're not in the old covenant, then you must believe all things are fulfilled in heaven and earth past.
01:54:01: But obviously it's not biological heaven and earth. So it must be covenantal heaven and earth. And now they got you hooked.
01:54:08: So that's that's the exact phrase I want to talk continue to talk about a little bit. So this is actually something
01:54:14: I have a question for Zach. But I guess I'll have to pay for the membership. If I want to hear an answer to maybe he'll take a phone call from me later.
01:54:22: But it's going back to this right like where you're talking about verse 18. Jesus says for truly
01:54:28: I say to you until heaven and earth pass away.
01:54:34: Now his quote was and that is a covenantal term referring to the old covenant system.
01:54:41: Assuredly, I tell you guys I've made many videos talking about how that's covenantal. Now, obviously,
01:54:48: I know that's the move that they do a second Peter, chapter three, the new heavens, new earth, Revelation 21, new heavens, new earth.
01:54:56: They'll go right back to Isaiah 65, new heavens, new earth. So my question is, okay, if we're going to be committed to heaven and earth being covenantal language,
01:55:09: Dr. Frost. Now, I did mention to someone in the side chat. Let me pull it up because they kind of asked this question.
01:55:17: I'll find it here in a second. But they made the assertion rather that it is completely fine to be a young earth creationist and a full preterist.
01:55:27: What we're talking about now is this is where I call inconsistency because if you are committed to the new heavens and new earth being covenantal language, then
01:55:38: Dr. Frost, what hermeneutical rule would the full preterist have to object to saying
01:55:44: Genesis 1 .1 is not covenantal language, but this is in a historic account of genealogy of how
01:55:51: God created the heavens and earth. Now, when we are talking about the new heavens or the heavens and the earth, this is the physicality.
01:55:59: This is the origins of the universe. This isn't talking about covenantal language between God and Israel.
01:56:06: Does this make sense? So how can a full preterist in any consistent way be a young earth creationist?
01:56:15: Well, they can't. It's impossible because 2 Peter 3 is fulfilled in 70
01:56:21: AD. And 2 Peter 3 is obviously referring to the heavens and the earth that then was created.
01:56:26: It's obviously referring to Genesis. It states it in the text. And so if that heaven and earth was destroyed in 70
01:56:34: AD and it's not the biological heaven and earth that you and I walk outside and see every day and when we look up in the skies, you know, and it's not that then it must be covenantal heaven and earth.
01:56:45: Well, if 2 Peter 3 is directly linked to Genesis chapters 1 through 2, which it is,
01:56:51: I don't know of any commentary that says that it isn't. It is. Well, then Genesis 1 through 2 is not talking about biological heavens and earth.
01:56:59: It's talking about covenantal heavens and earth. This is the view of beyond creation science of Jeff Vaughn and Tim Martin, who are full preterists and their book was very popular, still is among among full preterists.
01:57:12: So there's no you can't be a young earth creationist in a biological physical sense.
01:57:19: Like, you know, you had Jason Lyle on I saw on your show as he means it. Now ask
01:57:25: Jason Lyle what 2 Peter 3 means and he'll tell you straight up what it means. And I would agree with him.
01:57:31: It's the dissolution of this present heavens and earth as we know it. It's that's because that's
01:57:37: Genesis three or Genesis one language. They're both the same. And I would agree with with Jason Lyle.
01:57:45: But even in the context of Matthew five, you don't think I've come to evolve. Heaven and earth will not pass away.
01:57:51: Just continue reading. Jesus's speech is not over. Again, you've heard it said to those in ancient times, you not swear falsely or carry vowels.
01:58:03: But I say to you, do not swear at all, either either by heaven or it is the throne of God or by the earth or it is the footstool.
01:58:13: This is Isaiah language or by Jerusalem or it is the city.
01:58:20: So here's a clear distinction between heaven, which is the throne of God and the earth, which is his footstool and Jerusalem, which is the city of the great king.
01:58:34: So here, if heaven and earth is Jerusalem, the city of the great king and it's covenantal language, then
01:58:41: Jesus would be saying, don't swear by Jerusalem for it is the throne of God, neither by Jerusalem, the earth for it is the footstool of God or by Jerusalem for it is the city of the great king.
01:58:51: So which heaven and earth is he talking about? Just a few verses down. It's covenantal.
01:58:59: It's covenantal. See, you can't be consistent. Well, heaven and earth in Matthew 5 .33,
01:59:09: that means the literal heavens and the earth. But in Matthew 5 .18, it's covenantal heaven and earth.
01:59:16: By what hermeneutic, what would make you possibly do something like that?
01:59:26: And there's one answer to it and it's called 70 AD forces you to do that.
01:59:33: And that's not exegesis, that's eisegesis.
01:59:39: It's a vicious bias. I wanted to bring up, since we're talking about, and I hope people are hearing this in the side chat, if you are committed to heavens and earth being covenantal, well, then this forces you back to Genesis 1.
01:59:54: And so let me see if I can pull the scripture up where you can see it. So this is essentially, one second, 2
02:00:03: Peter 3, which is very eschatological. I want to recommend another resource to people.
02:00:11: Dr. Jeffrey Rice, or Dr. Jeffrey Johnson, different Jeffrey, he wrote a book called
02:00:16: The Five Points of All Millennialism. And one of his encouragements to people is saying, we gotta let the clear scriptures interpret the less clear.
02:00:26: And 2 Peter 3 is very clear in terms of the eschaton.
02:00:34: And so however you interpret the book of Revelation, let the apostle Peter give us didactic scripture.
02:00:39: And so I just want to highlight a few points, because I remember some of my old conversation with Zach, and this was one of the chapters where he was asking me about it, and I just said,
02:00:49: I'm still working out eschatology, sure, I said, but when we look at 2 Peter 3, starting in verse 3, knowing this, first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
02:01:05: They will say, where is the promise of his coming? Now, Dr. Frost, one of the big critiques that full preterists say to futurists believing in a blessed hope that's still not yet, is, oh, y 'all been waiting on Jesus for 2 ,000 years?
02:01:23: Am I wrong? I mean, that's one thing that I hear often. I'm saying, yeah, we can wait for many more thousand years, and that's okay, because we know he will return.
02:01:34: That is a promise that is sure and good, and that's essentially why we can get up and face another day in this evil, dawning day where there's sin, evil, hurts, pains, death all around us.
02:01:47: So I'm just saying, there will be mocking in these last days, right? This messianic advent where he's already inaugurated his kingdom, and we are awaiting this future consummation.
02:02:01: So I wanna continue, though, and look at this. Verse five.
02:02:07: Let's see here. Oh, let me back up. Verse four. They will say, where's the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.
02:02:21: So is this going to be covenantal language with the ethnic people of Israel, right?
02:02:27: Because remember, now, Zach, you said redemptive history is Israel's history.
02:02:34: Are we gonna continue with that maxim here, or are we gonna shift gears and say, oh, well,
02:02:40: Genesis, well, of course, this is a historic account, and I would actually say the reason why young earth creationists, and I have much love for my old earth creationists brethren out there, but the reason why young earth has a strong argument, and to a degree, old earth here, against theistic evolution and so forth, is we know
02:02:59: Genesis is a historic account because of how the New Testament interprets
02:03:05: Genesis. Adam was an actual person. Enoch was an actual person.
02:03:12: Noah and the flood was an actual person. How do we know that? Well, that's how the writers of the New Testament interpreted the book of Genesis.
02:03:20: You know what I mean? And so here is one of those key principles of saying ever since the beginning of the account when
02:03:28: God spoke to the world, ex nihilo, into creation. So this is the context of 2
02:03:35: Peter 3, because you know as well as I do. Let me see here if we skip down to,
02:03:41: I believe it's verse 10. Let me see here. But the day of the
02:03:47: Lord, Okay, so very much reminiscent of the Old Testament that talked about the great and dreadful day of the
02:03:56: Lord. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night and then the heavens will pass away with a roar and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved and the earth and the works that are done in it will be exposed.
02:04:11: So Zach, some of our past conversations, you were very quick to tell me that this being burned up,
02:04:19: I believe, what's the cross reference, Dr. Frost, with Colossians 2 with the elemental things of pagan philosophy?
02:04:27: Well, here's what I told, that's what I remember me and Zach talking about, I don't think he minds me bringing this up, is you gotta stick within the immediate context of what
02:04:37: Peter is talking about. Don't go over to Paul in a different context. I get that we can look at the semantic domain and say maybe it can be used differently, but my argument is
02:04:50: Peter already started this train and it began with the creation of Genesis chapter one.
02:04:57: Now, I talked with Ward Findley on the phone and I made all these same points that however you start the train in 2
02:05:04: Peter chapter three, that's how you have to end it and for him, he just says it's all covenantal.
02:05:10: So when he reads Genesis chapter one through 11 through the book of Genesis, this is covenantal poetic language for the people of Israel and so as Zach does a response video, hopefully we gave him weeks worth of content with this one video, how do you disconnect reading the opening verses of Genesis chapter one not covenantally because you've given up the hermeneutic that the
02:05:38: New Testament is the best interpreter of the Old Testament. So I hope people understand the point that we're making.
02:05:47: Let me just read one last verse and get your thoughts on it. So I'll continue in verse 11.
02:05:52: Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, so this is the language that Zach would try to relate to Colossians three saying this is the old covenant aeon dissolving, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness and I want to pause and say one of the things
02:06:12: I talked with Zach with is what's sanctification look like in our lives today?
02:06:18: Now this was years ago and he just told me I don't know because the next question was what about glorification if everything is fulfilled in 70
02:06:25: AD? Well he would say that in the lives of holiness your sanctification and godliness this is talking about first century.
02:06:35: This is someone else's mail. Verse 12 continues waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of god because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn but according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
02:06:59: And so if people are new to what we call heresy not to be mean but we're just saying something that totally deviates and preaches a different Jesus and a different gospel.
02:07:08: They all say this is covenantal spiritual language that the old covenant was burned up and done away with and the new heavens and new earth is the new covenant essentially, right?
02:07:21: And by the way everything that we're experiencing now this is the new heavens and the new earth. So it should become plain at this point that the hyper -preterists are having to re -read all of this language and then redefine it as it has been understood by the greatest of exegetes and minds throughout men and women throughout the last 1900 years.
02:07:49: And they do this again because they've the time text and they've stumbled on this generation and everything's fulfilled and then they come up with this rather bizarre twist on everything but they still want to be evangelicals.
02:08:00: They still want to be counted as Christian, evangelical running churches doing whatever collecting getting paid
02:08:08: I guess for being a pastor which, you know, why would you go in?
02:08:15: But anyway that's what my shirt says but whatever.
02:08:22: So but whatever again back to Deuteronomy 4 where it talks about the last days that will be scattered in the tribulation and then in verse 32 ask me about the former days long before your own ever since the day that God created human beings on the earth.
02:08:44: That's Deuteronomy 4 32. That's when God created the human beings on the earth.
02:08:51: Ask about those former days. You can go to Hebrews chapter 1 long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets but in these last days he has spoken to us by a son and Hebrews continues on.
02:09:06: What is these last days? What goes on during these last days? Well, he tells us therefore while the promise of entering his rest is still open in these last days let us take care that none of you should have failed to have reached it for as on my anger
02:09:22: I swore though his works were finished from the foundation there is a phrase again from the foundation of the world for somewhere speaks about on the seventh day and God created and rested today if you hear his voice do not harden his heart indeed the word of God is living and active now notice what he's doing in Hebrews he's taking a psalm that applied to the children that came out of Exodus and he's applying it to the people in the first century what
02:09:49: I would have said if I was writing Hebrews is whoever wrote it I would have said hey you're reading the mail of the generation that came out of Egypt and you're reading their mail in the first century stop doing that that text only applies to them but clearly the author of Hebrews is applying it to his present day readers and he states so then
02:10:15: Jesus the great high priest in all of the things that he describes there and then finally he ends it with today today if you hear his voice do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion and I would say that you could preach on that Sunday morning to your congregation today if you hear his voice do not harden your heart as they did in the rebellion you could apply that today as the author of Hebrews is applying it and it was written centuries before him and he's applying it now what is today in these last days he has spoken to us by his son well if the last days are fulfilled and we're not in the last days this today today if you hear his voice no longer applies why would it now in the traditional view when we have new heavens and new earth it's not going to apply it will be perfect not only will
02:11:22: I hear his voice I'll see him in creation I'll be walking with him I'll know him it's perfection and that's what the whole book of Hebrews is heading towards in Hebrews 12 it's heading towards that laboring of whom the world is not worthy of those that gave their lives pilgrims, wanderers they were not worthy because their eyes were set ahead on a better hope not the destruction of Jerusalem temple and it wasn't just heaven it was a new heavens and a new earth so 2
02:11:50: Peter talks about the last days and I want to know where is the definition of the last days given is just a few short period of time like a couple of years that's dispensationalism's definition but in the biblical definition the last days could span just as much time as the former days why is the last days all like 10 years but the former days is thousands of years
02:12:16: I got a question when we look in Joel when it talks about the last days you know in the
02:12:24: Septuagint and in the New Testament can't the Hebrew just render that as afterward something that comes next afterward days days afterward right so like dispensationalist full preterist very much like dispensationalist they seize on this term and very much like dispensationalist they have the last days as the last days of Israel's old covenant and it's only like 10 -15 years tops and then that's it but it can't be but in the amillennial view and I'd say in the postmillennial view but definitely in early church certainly they they read
02:13:03: Isaiah 2 in the last days the mountain of the Lord will be exalted and the nations will come streaming and they saw that as the gospel going out and Mount Zion as heavenly true
02:13:13: Mount Zion which is in the again the Tanakh teaches that Zion is my throne heavenly Zion heaven is my throne earth is my footstool that's
02:13:21: Isaiah 65 you can get all that imagery I don't need to go to the New Testament for it's all in the
02:13:26: Old Testament so the idea was is that in the last days the gospel is going to go forth unto the nations and the nations would bring coming in so the early church quoted that verse as the whole basis for missions for missiology the whole point is that we're living in fact it's in the
02:13:44: Creed of Chalcedon where it states in these last days he has spoken to us by his son 451
02:13:50: A .D. that's in the Creed of Chalcedon so they saw themselves as in the last days I'm in the last days we've been in the last days since the ascension of Jesus and Jesus speaks to us today from heaven harden not your hearts but repent and believe so that the coming in of the gospel so if we're in the last days so notice what you brought up with 2
02:14:11: Peter because he plays that plays right into it in the last days scoffers will come scoffing and indulging their own lusts are there any scoffers today?
02:14:25: they're all over the place your very name is the apologetic dog because you're offering an apologetic of the gospel against scoffers and unbelievers who indulge in their own lusts and saying where is the promise of his coming they're not saying when they're saying where where is the manifestation of the presence and ever since our ancestors died things continue on as they were from the beginning of creation now there's a legitimate little argument right there because Jesus ended rape has he brought an end to war?
02:15:05: has he brought an end to murder? has he brought an end to destruction?
02:15:12: men fighting men has he brought an end to any stealing? has he brought an end to thievery or burglary?
02:15:19: has he brought an end to anything at all in terms of sin? scoffing indulging in the lust no but why is last days these things are going to go on in the last days
02:15:31: Paul says the same thing know that in the last days and then he goes and gives a big list to Timothy well yeah
02:15:37: I can encounter every one of those I can preach that on Sunday morning and saying these guys still they're all around what that's saying is that in the last days of creation the description is
02:15:49: I've not come to bring peace I've come to bring a sword I've come to dash the nations like pottery that's not pretty nations being smashed is not pretty and anyone that doesn't kiss and submit to the sun whom
02:16:04: I've installed at the right hand psalm 2 my wrath will flare up quickly well what does that look like well it's death and destruction and famines and tornadoes and earthquakes and you know wrath of God stuff that's going to happen when in the last days well how long are the last days
02:16:23: I don't know I have no clue but I know that we're in them and I know what
02:16:30: Jesus says in this world you will have tribulation he tells his disciples you're going to be persecuted the nations are going to hate you because of me now
02:16:40: I don't know about you but again Jeremiah your whole ministry apart from the ministry that you do to the congregation there locally but your whole ministry apologetic dog is based on defending the gospel against people who hate the gospel the whole point of what you're doing is there's scoffers there's people that hate they don't want there's people in politics in high power right now that would want nothing more than the church to just shut up and go away stop getting involved stop with your stupid bible stories and your your ethics and morals all that who cares it's an old book it was an old book written at an old time and no one really cares about it anymore it's irrelevant and that's what
02:17:29: Jesus said would be in the last days and we've we've been in that for 1900 years that's why we labor we have great patient endurance revelation says this calls for great patient endurance well patient endurance why do
02:17:47: I need patient endurance because there's scoffers there's mockers there's false Christ there's false teachers there's false doctrines there's false prophets there's false religions there's people that there's enmity there's persecutions there's birth pangs there's all these kinds of things that are going on because I have
02:18:01: I have come and all power and authority is mine and the keys of death and Hades are in my hands but I have not yet tossed them into the lake of fire why because there's a call and a mission to go out to the harvest and to the nations and to bring in as many as I've I've called well how many have you called well
02:18:18: John saw an innumerable multitude that no man could count in other words you're in this for the long haul now in the meantime in these last days go and preach the gospel and disciples the nations and teach them all the things that I've commanded you to do because all power and authority is mine and the gates of Hades and all the satanic powers and heavenly forces and the stoichea of the world and all of that will not prevail against you even though it may seem like they are they're not oh hallelujah
02:18:53: I say I can oh I've got hope I've got hope I lost had to go and you know
02:19:02: I know a person that had to go and deal with a family whose brother hung himself drug addiction and hung himself in the new heavens and new earth we won't have to deal with that anymore but right now
02:19:13: I've got to deal with that and then I've got to deal with people who say how can you believe in a God that would let something like that happen hey
02:19:21: I want to model something real quick Dr. Frost so this person may I'm gonna read their name they may be just tuning in but this is this is what we're talking about people can read the name for themselves but we are in the last days for the last 1900 years that makes no sense to me she's probably raised dispensationalist see
02:19:47: I want you to find me a verse that says the last days are only 10 years and I want you to also find me a verse that talks about where I just read from the scriptures that says consider the former days when
02:20:02: I made man on earth Deuteronomy 4 .32 now he's saying this to people in Moses' day so that's a couple of thousand years back but he calls them the former days now
02:20:13: I don't know about you but my former days only lasted a few years and I'd call them the former days but I would never use the phrase former days for thousands of years the way that Moses did in Deuteronomy 4 so if that's the case and we know that the word days can be used like that as the context dictates then why does last days have to be a short period of time so you have the former times from Adam to the time of Christ and that's four or five thousand years right that's a lot of that's a lot of times well why does the last times have to be 10 years if the former times are thousands of years why are the last times only 10 years can the last times be thousands of years where where does the
02:21:00: Bible say that it can't and there's that was a revelation to me I was like oh my goodness because the good standard of all millennial teaching is that and the church there's great unanimity here
02:21:12: Catholic Orthodox Protestant that the last days have been going on since the ascension of Christ until the last day
02:21:21: John chapter 6 when I will raise up all that the Father has given to me so that makes sense you have the last days until the last day so now it makes perfect sense because I'm not under some constraint or definition or something that I've made up and I'm reading into the scriptures that last days can only be 10 20 years when there is absolutely no scripture that says that whatsoever none
02:21:54: Dr. Frost thanks so much for coming on to the Apologetic Dog and kind of helping me oh yeah that's what
02:22:02: I was going to say is I definitely want to encourage people to go check out your book Daniel Unplugged because as we talked earlier these conversations continue into talking about the abomination of desolation
02:22:16: Daniel chapter 9 the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 and the other Synoptic Gospels and Daniel chapter 7 with the coming of the
02:22:25: Son of Man and so you're right we're going to have to do a follow up another point in time on that yeah yeah yeah but anything else that you want to say in terms of recommending this book that you've written recently to everyone yeah it takes a couple of different turns
02:22:41: I really loved it I changed some of my views midway through translating the book and working through the text some of my views actually
02:22:48: Daniel actually changed some of my views but I'm noticing here in the chat it says like a thousand years so a thousand years means 40 years and you and I have dealt with that before so now you've got to reduce a thousand years which is a long period of time to 30 37 years or 40 years whatever which again and here's the thing and I'm seeing some of these people responding in chats like MJack who's not responding to anything that you and I are saying he's just going on and spouting off and it's like none of it registers they're so convinced of 70
02:23:22: AD it's like just a wall can I say something to that real quick I want to relate it back to Zach Davis so and I hope
02:23:30: Zach receives this with love when we were talking many years ago about him asking me all these questions about 70
02:23:37: AD you know what answer I gave him a lot of times I was like Zach I'm not exactly sure I said but my heart is captivated by Jesus Christ coming to restore all things and me actually seeing him now
02:23:50: I get that at the end of the day so the scripture God's word prevails over our experience but it has to account for our experience and so a lot of my answers to Zach was
02:24:02: I don't know but I pleaded with him you know to like I said not to I lost my train of thought maybe my second cup of coffee has let me down but I told him oh
02:24:17: I know what I was going to say is I could tell as I was starting to bring out some of the logical arguments just how full preterism given the system you know implodes on itself if everything goes on infinitum then this erodes
02:24:31: God's necessary attributes or I would come back with a really good argument about this age being a temporal perishing age my conversations with Zach was
02:24:42: I could tell his heart was being captivated by 70 A .D.
02:24:48: I mean I could just see it even when he would tell me I don't necessarily believe it I just can't disprove it
02:24:53: I started seeing that no like you're bought into this hook line and sinker and at all cost you will make this happen now
02:25:02: I will say on my side of things yes I am anti full preterism my heart is captivated by the beauty that Jesus will return now yes we do got to make our exegetical arguments but I unashamedly am captivated by the reality that Jesus Christ will return at the end of redemptive history that is still not yet so my point is it's
02:25:25: I want to tell people it's okay if you don't have all the answers right I think that is a bankrupt system that does not capture the beauty of redemptive history does that make sense
02:25:37: Dr. Frost that's what I was trying to say there it makes a lot of sense because one of our idols is having certainty and having all of these answers and one of the things about 70
02:25:47: AD is it's figured out eschatology there's a reason why eschatology has been a perennial problem for 1900 years in the church it's because it's eschatology and not all things are fulfilled we don't have all the answers and I can account for that on the basis of not all things are fulfilled but in the full preterist view you have all the answers all the answers you got them all everything's fulfilled so you can't say well
02:26:14: I don't know how this all works out you can't say that everything's fulfilled you have all the answers and it's all rooted in 70
02:26:21: AD so you've locked yourself into this system whereas in our understanding in church history understanding
02:26:27: I can account for the disagreements and the debates that we have because we're not there yet we haven't arrived into the fullness of the knowledge of the son of God and the fullness of the unity of the spirit we're not there yet so I can account for our disagreements
02:26:42: I know why we disagree because we're not been raised from the dead in perfection yet in the new heavens and new earth the full preterist however cannot say that he's in the new heavens and the new earth covenantally he's in the fullness of the knowledge of the son covenantally he has all truth he has the fulfillment of all of these things and so he should be readily able to give us the answers pretty much to any question on eschatology that we have the only problem is is among full preterists in the last 15 years there's a great splintering that's going on an implosion within itself you've got full preterists now attacking full preterists as to who are the real consistent full preterists and there's about five groups now that are in competition for who's the real full preterists well
02:27:26: I thought you guys had your act all together and were perfect hearing the voice of God or you're just a bunch of mixed up human beings why don't you come on over and join us in our club stop saying walking around like Ward Finley like oh
02:27:45: I'm perfect covenantally which makes makes no sense okay great but can you stop being such a butthole then since you're perfect covenantally can you stop being can you stop being obnoxious because perfect people are not obnoxious
02:28:05: I mean I don't know it's just but this is this is this is where and it's like it's all to protect these time texts in 70
02:28:13: AD that's that's that's the shield that's gone on around that's the force field that's gone on around everything so it doesn't matter what you say it's like talking to a
02:28:22: Mormon it just it doesn't nothing nothing is nothing gets in it's it's it just bounces off Teflon 70
02:28:30: AD is the answer to everything so you know these are the days of evangelism Jerusalem 70
02:28:36: AD Josephus they ought to add Josephus as the sixth seventh book of the Bible as it is quoted as much as the
02:28:42: Bible is so this I'm I'm begging and I've witnessed hundreds of hyper predators come out of this and I plead with those that are in it that are see it that they think that they found plutonium they've discovered the secrets of the
02:28:58: Bible and all of this bunch of nonsense that I just plead with you to have an open mind leave your mind open you might be wrong you might be wrong you is it possible sure that that you're wrong and that you have to submit saying here's
02:29:19: I think there's an authority problem going on there too that you have to submit to leaders in the church so there's a lot of issues
02:29:26: I could go on with Dr. Frost thanks for spending the last two and a half hours on this and just remember but whatever but whatever
02:29:46: I was like I have no idea what to expect and we were talking about doing this episode
02:29:52: I was like I know what I'm wearing for our episode but Dr. Frost thanks again for coming on hopefully we'll have future conferences that we can speak at because I'm learning a lot
02:30:04: I will say this Zach Davis going into full preterism definitely beefed up my eschatology game so I see a silver lining in that yeah and I hope
02:30:19: Zach hears the love coming from me I'm doing this response video and we'll see what the future holds but man
02:30:26: I'm totally at peace with who Christ is his finished work what he is continuing to do in creation today looking forward to that blessed day when he returns and restores all things so Dr.
02:30:41: Frost if you ever if I said this to you before if you ever want to do a conference my wife and I will drive down there we won't charge anything
02:30:49: I just want to get this message out and it is being effective
02:30:55: I get emails I just got there was three of them I just got the other day two from Australia and then there was another one and they're dealing with just single individual people coming into their churches in their
02:31:08: Bible studies and they're starting to you know rattle off and then they start searching the internet like you never heard of this stuff full preterism and my name invariably because I've done so much work here now thanks to you and many others that have put me on top so when you put full preterism and Google that my name invariably is going to just pop up and then they send me an email and say hey man
02:31:32: I've got a brother here in the church that we're thinking about becoming an elder and his family's been here and they've been just great people they're wonderful people but he just goes on and on and on about 70
02:31:45: AD and I started looking into it and he's reading Don Preston is there anything I should be concerned about or and I write back yes yes just if you let if you let that family in and begin to teach they're going to infect your entire congregation like gangrene that's what's going to happen
02:32:01: I've seen it happen and that's that's what happens they can't keep their mouth shut well just don't teach it here how can you not talk about the fulfillment of the
02:32:18: Bible in 70 AD and that the whole church has been wrong for 1900 years and I've got the understanding of the scriptures man
02:32:29: I gotta let this out I gotta speak yeah you can't contain something like that if that's the truth you gotta preach it you got plutonium here
02:32:42: I've got the life I have the solution to the problem of the modern church today and the solution is 70
02:32:49: AD that's true yep I've I tell people discipleship cannot be in within a full preterist church context it's all fulfilled done away with as we kind of were talking about so Dr.
02:33:09: Frost thank you again for your time we'll have to do it again before too long and I want to once again just remind everybody go check out
02:33:16: Daniel Unplugged I'm going to leave a link to that in the show notes below after we get done filming so Dr.
02:33:23: Frost once again thanks so much for coming on to the Apologetic Dog thanks for having me on brother alright take care
02:33:30: God bless well if you've made it this long congratulations thank you if you have ever benefited from the
02:33:41: Apologetic Dog's ministry video content what have you I just want to please ask you for your support to please like share and subscribe and if you do enjoy these videos you can hit the notification so you'll be reminded oh yeah
02:33:55: I need to be ready for a live stream sometimes especially these last days
02:34:01: I've been doing random live streams teaching on the Book of Acts so you don't want to miss that I also have other ways that you can support me if you go to the
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02:34:25: I want this Apologetics ministry to be one for contending for the gospel of grace and so thank you so much for tuning in for two and a half hours to the
02:34:37: Apologetic Dog oh I do want to say I took a poll during this live stream on what is your eschatology with pre meal all meal post meal and then