Julia the YouTuber & Blogger - Christians Who Sell Jesus

Selling Jesus

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Allow me to introduce you to Julia. Julia is a well -known Christian YouTuber and blogger.

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Her mission is to leverage the reach of the internet to edify believers with God -centered, Christ -exalting content.

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She is particularly called to minister to women who have been victims of abuse, helping them seek healing in Christ.

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When her subscriber count hit 100 ,000, she was advised by her cousin to monetize the channel and start earning ad revenue and seek out sponsors.

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When she asked her followers about this idea, most people said, of course, we would gladly sit through ads to support the great things you share.

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God has obviously blessed you. A worker is worthy of her wages. You go, girl!

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Now Julia has nearly half a million followers and several revenue streams besides ads and sponsors.

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First, she has a special subscription option that enables people to access some of her content early as well as suggest ideas for future videos and blogs.

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People who pay for an even more premium subscription also get some kind of free merch once a year along with an opportunity to ask her questions in a live stream she does every couple months.

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When her sister admonished her to think more carefully about whether it's biblical to force people to watch ads before receiving spiritual guidance from her, she got offended.

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It's not like I'm driving a Tesla and living in Beverly Hills. I always tithe and I support six different charities.

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These income streams allow me to give more than I ever have in my life. How dare you judge me when the

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Bible clearly says that you shouldn't muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain. Besides, people don't have to sign up for the premium stuff and they can get an ad blocker if they don't want to watch the ads.

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Or if they don't like it, they can go listen to someone else. It's a free country. Julia has bought into the lie that as long as you don't maintain an extravagant lifestyle, you're incapable of mismanaging the relationship between money and ministry.

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Whether or not people like how she is monetizing her service to God is irrelevant to God.

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Jesus wants his servants to give what they have been given without cost in order to reflect 1.

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the radical generosity of his own heart, 2. the sincerity of Julia's own ministry, and 3.

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the truth that spiritual things are not commodities to be bought and sold like everything else in the world's marketplace.

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As it stands, the sincerity of Julia's ministry is seriously compromised since there is nothing to keep someone from thinking that she has ulterior financial motives for the truth she imparts.

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She is unable to be above the reproach of using Jesus as a platform for making money.

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God is more interested in her obedience than whether she gives her ill -gotten gain to charities or churches.

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Finally, Julia has failed to truly love those who listen to her, for true

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Christian love never has strings attached. Love lays down profit and pleasure, and endures pain for the sake of others.

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Julia has some of the most typical pushback or objections that we hear all the time.

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Quite a list of them, actually, in her response to her sister. So, let's kind of pick those apart maybe one by one.

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First up, she says, it's not like I'm driving a Tesla and live in Beverly Hills.

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So, the luxury argument. I'm not living in luxury, basically. So, what

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I'm doing is okay. Yeah, that's a very common response to these questions because people have the idea that it's only excessiveness or some kind of egregious use of wealth that would qualify as the kind of greed that scripture condemns.

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But a proverb that I've brought up in these discussions before says that for a piece of bread, a man will do wrong.

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Even if you're doing wrong for just a piece of bread, it's still wrong, even if that's the only payment.

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And the question here is, is it wrong to accept payment for this? And the answer is, yes, it's wrong to peddle the

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Word of God, assuming that what we're talking about here is biblical teaching.

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It is wrong to peddle the Word of God for any amount of money. It's not just excessive amounts of profit.

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It's any amount is putting a price on the Word of God. Yeah. And maybe we should even back up to the issue of her giving special perks to people who give at certain levels and give regularly or whatever, which is the

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Patreon model in a lot of creative circles. Maybe there's other services that offer a similar sort of tiered benefits for donors.

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But we talked about this briefly in the last conversation about giving people extra perks if they give a certain amount to a seminary, for example.

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And maybe we should just briefly touch on that. Right. So there's two kinds of perks that one can give.

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One would be material perks. So like, oh, you get a coffee mug that has our logo on it.

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Or maybe it's not necessarily material perks, but it wouldn't be something spiritual like teaching.

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And so when it comes to that, I wouldn't say that there is a blanket prohibition on that kind of exchange in Scripture.

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However, if you are trying to communicate with clarity that you are in this sincerely,

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I think it does muddy the waters of your communication. But what you typically see is that people are withholding some of their teaching only for those who pay.

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You can ask me special questions. If you do this, you can get access to the special teaching.

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If you do this, John 18, 20, Jesus says, I've spoken openly to the world.

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I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple where all Jews come together. I have said nothing in secret.

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Right. So there's something right about an open, transparent communication, not, well, if you pay me extra money, then

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I'll teach you the special things that I wouldn't teach everybody else. So you would say, just to clarify, you would say that giving physical products, like a t -shirt or something, in exchange for people signing up to give regularly as an incentive, you're saying that would be okay, but not if it's opening up or unlocking access to extra teaching or something like that?

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So I'm saying that in theory, one could imagine it like I'm running a bake sale to support this thing and someone could come and purchase a cake from that bake sale, wanting to get the cake.

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Now, you're starting to muddy the waters for several reasons. One, what is their reason for giving? Is it to get the cake or is it for this other thing?

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And two, you're muddying the waters of why are you selling this thing? Is it, one, do you actually, are you sincerely giving that you're giving, or is it in order to get people through this fundraising cycle scheme that you have?

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Once again, just to use that phrase, it muddies the waters of communicating your sincerity. So I'm just trying to state that when it comes to the blanket prohibitions that we have in Scripture against the reciprocity of spiritual things, against reciprocity in ministry, it might not hit this square on the nose.

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However, there are reasons to still be concerned. But then when it comes to the thing that most people are doing, which is selling additional teaching or giving additional access beyond that for money, that's where you're directly violating the commands that we're concerned about in Matthew 10, 8 and 2

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Corinthians 2, 17. Pete Right. Yeah, that's really helpful, and this is good because this is a gray area.

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Like you said, we don't have these clear prohibitions in this key area, but yeah, it does muddy the waters.

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One of the things, I don't know what you guys think of this. One of the things I would suggest is instead of having it as an incentive, let it be a surprise.

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Give people gifts of gratitude, but they don't know that's coming. John Yeah, I think that makes sense.

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We could always imagine a situation where, you know, your ministry has a reputation for giving, you know, some pretty excellent surprises, so it could run into the whole issue once again.

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But yeah, that's one way of addressing the concern. Pete Right. It makes me think of the passage,

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I think in Philippians, that's called the thankless thanks, where Paul was kind of thanking the

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Philippians for their support, but not actually saying that he thanks them, and instead points them to the fact that they have offered a sacrifice pleasing to God.

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So, I'm not really opposed to it, but it does, it makes me think of that. It's something to think through, you know.

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Are we coming from a Western culture? I really want to thank people that support me, but there's other cultures that, yeah, like they're less frequent in their giving of thanks for things.

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It's more just kind of, you know, for example, if you help out family, it's just expected. It's not something to thank someone for because it's just expected.

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I think it's an issue to think through, but yeah, perhaps it's not really a black and white thing. John Gotcha. There's a very similar concern here that people have when they run a ministry like this, because oftentimes it's not, okay,

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I need to come up with some fundraising scheme. All right, I'll sell t -shirts or whatever. It's actually, wouldn't it be great if my followers had t -shirts, and how am

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I going to fund these t -shirts to get to them? And the obvious solution was, well, you have them pay for the t -shirts.

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So there's a situation where you wouldn't, Andrew, you had suggested making it a surprise.

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That wouldn't really work for that kind of thing where you want to provide them a way of getting t -shirts, for example.

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So I'm not sure what you all would think about that, but my thoughts are, once again, the blanket prohibition is against reciprocity of spiritual things, not these non -spiritual things.

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So it would be permissible to provide a way for someone to do this. Just like we talk about with books and things, it makes it a little clearer if it's some third party that is selling them, right?

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I don't know what people use these days, cafe press or whatever, but if you set it up through one of those things and it's clear that it's not you, that's the one trying to make money out of this, but rather the other entity that's the secular entity that's creating these products.

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But even if you did collect something out of that, once again, the question here is whether or not it's clearly communicating, not whether or not something is wrong with that direct sale of something physical that's not actually related to ministry.

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Yeah. I was just thinking the main issue is the attitudes behind it.

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If you kind of tell people that if you donate, we'll give you a gift, it's a disservice to those who are donating because for example,

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I may want to donate to an organization and not receive a gift and I'd actually feel kind of bad to receive something back.

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I want to give and not just because I'm benefiting from it. So I think it's the attitude behind it that is really the issue.

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Makes sense. So let's hit the next point in Julia's response to her sister.

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She says, I always tithe and I support six different charities. These income streams allow me to give more than I ever have in my life.

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This reminds me of a response to my article in Bible Publishers, but basically the argument was that some of these

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Bible Publishers are making a lot of money from selling Bibles. In fact, they make so much money that they then use the money to donate to other ministries.

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So they're like, you know, if we weren't selling all these Bibles, then we wouldn't have all this money to give away to other ministries and fund other initiatives.

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So I mean, basically what's that saying is that rather than you giving to those organizations, we're taking your money and giving it away like it's our own kind of taking the credit for overcharging for Bibles when they didn't need to.

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So the fact that making such a surplus and they're able to give all this money shows that they're actually charging far more than they need to.

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And then often they will be giving away something that promotes their own brand anyway, right?

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So thinking of a Bible version, you know, they're like, oh, we're donating all of these

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Bibles of our version to Africans. And well, what that's doing is just reinforcing the dominance of their brand in another place by giving all of these away and they're giving them away with your money.

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Yeah. I mean, in some cases it's simply money, so it's not even giving away Bibles.

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They're a non -profit and they have generated so much profit from selling Bibles. They just give money away to other things that are totally unrelated.

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Right. Yeah. So there's this idea here that is very pragmatic. If the end is good, then the means are acceptable, right?

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And so there can't be anything wrong with the means if it's producing so much good. And if there's so much generosity that's happening, there can't possibly be any kind of motive of greed.

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And you see this with a lot of, there are a few famous Christian authors who don't make very much money from their book because they're giving away a large portion of the proceeds from the book, but they're still in charge of that money.

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They're still requiring it from people and they're still deciding where it gets redirected to. So we have to think about this in a principled way.

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The question isn't whether or not it's doing more good in the end. The question is whether or not it was right to take that money in the first place.

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And people should have the concept that ill gotten money, that there's something wrong with it and it shouldn't, it's not clean for use.

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The concept of blood money, this is a phrase we have to recognize that there's money that is tainted.

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And in scripture, there's the concept of the wages of a prostitute. Deuteronomy 23, 18 says, you shall not bring the fee of a prostitute or the wages of dog into the house of the

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Lord, your God and payment for any vow for both of these are an abomination to the Lord, your God. So someone might say, oh, well, maybe this act was wrong, but it's okay in the end because we're going to use it for some holy purpose.

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No, actually, using it for some holy purpose doesn't then make that money holy. In fact, the money is, there's still a problem with it and it shouldn't be used for that purpose.

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And you see this throughout scripture, this concept of the wages of a prostitute are brought up again, even again, later in Micah 1, 7, it talks about it in terms of idolatry and false worship.

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It speaks of carved images and wages being thrown in the fire.

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And it seems to be that it's not talking about prostitution per se, but that false worship being the prostituting out of Israel.

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And therefore this would apply to any kind of misuse of the things of God, to any kind of false worship and idolatry.

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And I would count a mishandling of the ministry as being part of that.

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And so if someone gains wealth through a mishandling of the ministry in this way, where they're charging for things that they're not permitted to charge for, and then trying to sanctify that by giving those things to holy causes, scripture would not smile on that as something that sanctifies the money and the means that it was gotten.

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Something I've noticed with all of Julia's arguments that relates to this one as well, is that they're very emotionally manipulative.

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So using this argument, I'm sure she believes that it is right for her to do what she's doing in the first place, but then she goes further and says, you know, look at all the good this is doing.

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Look at all the money I'm able to give away. It's an emotional argument because if you then say what she's doing is wrong, it's like you're saying, oh, well, you know what, all the good she's doing doesn't matter.

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All the good that she's doing from it is irrelevant. So it stirs people's emotions and makes it, it makes the argument seem more justified, but actually it's just kind of manipulating the way you think about it.

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So you don't actually see the underlying issue. So something else that strikes me as very pragmatic in her arguments is that she says it's a free country.

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They can listen to someone else that they want as though the argument is, well, look at the harm that you're doing to this person therefore.

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And so if you have some way of alleviating the harm, then the problem is well, you know, if they're affected by this, they can use an ad blocker, they can use something else, but it fails to acknowledge that we're saying that the judge of the earth has declared what he finds acceptable in the act of ministry and that Julia is failing to comply with that.

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So really all of these arguments come back to the main thing that we've just encountered over and over, which is looking at pragmatism over principle.

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And yeah, it's just, it's kind of difficult to get people to think outside of that box, to think outside of the idea, because it is true that the end concern about all these things is harm.

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It's just, we don't necessarily see the harm when we're not following God's principles. We don't necessarily see how he's not honored.

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We don't necessarily see how others are hurt by it. A lot of times we feel like, well, we can be the judge of whether this is good or evil based on what we see, not trusting

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God and his principle to determine based on what he sees rather than what we see. The kind of people that would make these arguments would also make the argument about the distinction between local church and parachurch ministry.

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So what Julia is doing is, I guess, effectively parachurch. Being on YouTube, it's not like she's a pastor.

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Anyone can, if they want, it's not like she's denying them biblical teaching and the message of the gospel that they can get at their local church.

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But to be honest, in Western countries, I think you could say the same thing about many churches because you could have a commercial church that charges an entrance fee at the door.

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And if people object, you could just say, well, there's another church just down the road. You can just walk five minutes to another church.

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It's not like we're denying you access to the gospel because there's so many other churches around. So it's not a very good argument.

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Pete Exactly. And one of the reasons I wrote all of these profiles is because it takes time to kind of unpack the immense creativity with which people try to justify themselves in different situations and avoid the core principle and dance around the command of Christ, right?

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There's just so many different ways that people are extremely creative in doing exactly what

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Conley just described of avoiding the confrontation of the direct command of God, clear teaching of scripture on this principle, and find loopholes for themselves, basically.

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So, her next thing that she says is, how dare you judge me?

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When the Bible clearly says that you shouldn't muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain. So, she's got two things going there.

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The typical, you know, you don't have any right to judge me, which people love when they're on the defensive, they love pulling that out of the hat.

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And the second is an assumption, an assumption that she understands the verse about the ox and that it's immediately clear and obvious to all people that it supports what she's doing.

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Yeah, we've addressed that one a number of times. You've even got that ox shirt that you made.

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But yeah, it's just an abuse of that passage to then assume that any way that the ox is supplied is appropriate, right?

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Any way the worker is supplied with wages. We've talked about this before too, but the passage in Matthew and in Luke that talks about the worker being worthy of his wages or of his food is not talking about the field being the employer.

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In that analogy, God is the Lord of the harvest. He is the one sending the workers out into the harvest.

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And so, the wages are supposed to come from him and his means and the means that he has appointed is fellow workers, not the targets of evangelism, not the field that they're going out to, but rather fellow workers who are coming alongside of them.

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Pete And if you haven't seen my pitch meetings on YouTube, you can go to sellingjesus .org

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and click on videos and click on humor, and you can watch a series of videos that kind of unpack the hole in this muzzling the ox argument and the misunderstanding, the general misunderstanding amongst

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Christians that this single -handedly gives a blanket justification for all monetization of ministry and everything sacred.

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And it does it in a humorous way. If you don't have a sense of humor, then yeah, don't go there.

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But if you do, you might enjoy that being unpacked in that way.

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So, moving on, she says people don't have to sign up for the premium stuff.

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We've kind of touched on what she says here. You know, they can get an ad blocker. I just want to mention here too that this is placing that burden on the receiver of ministry once again, you know.

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What I wrote about also in the ad article, so there's a podcast episode and an article on sellingjesus .org

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about whether Christians should run ads on their ministry content.

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And that's the thing I want to, I try to highlight in that article is the attitude of service and bearing one another's burdens instead of heaping the burden of avoidance of this distraction of ads and besides the fact of, once again, muddying the waters, right, that we've talked about.

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And sometimes platforms will force ads onto your content. And that happens to us, unfortunately, as well.

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So, what we've done is we've made sure our videos are also available on an ads -free platform.

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So, there is an alternative. Unfortunately, YouTube is pretty pervasive in its use of ads. You can't switch them off under most conditions.

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Yeah. And there's some creative suggestions, like practical suggestions in my article on how to try to serve people when

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YouTube is forcing ads on your content or whatever. Yeah. Let's .Church is the platform John's referring to.

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Let's .Church is a very upstanding platform for all the reasons we're talking about here, very much on board with the approach to money and ministry that we're advocating for.

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So, something I found very interesting in this profile was that her followers were quite keen for her to commercialize her content as well.

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Ah, yes. So, just reading from the profile, when she asked her followers about the idea of commercializing her content, most people said, of course, we would gladly sit through ads to support the great things you share.

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God has obviously blessed you. A worker is worthy of her wages. You go, girl. This is interesting because in one level,

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I understand that people are just trying to support her. And that's a good motive. And this just shows, you know, we're just so used to thinking in a commercial mindset that sometimes we do think that paying for something is the best way to support a ministry.

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But this also reminds me of the story of Jesus cleansing the temple, because in that story,

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Jesus drives out people who are selling and doing commerce in the temple. But what people often overlook is that he also drives out those buying things in the temple.

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So, not just the sellers, but the buyers as well. And also a very helpful passage on this topic is the story of Peter and the magician

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Simon. So, in Acts 8, Peter confronts Simon who wants to buy the gift of the

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Holy Spirit so that he can lay his hands on other people and give the Holy Spirit as well.

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And he is strongly condemned by Peter for that. And so, here is someone trying to buy a ministry and is strongly condemned.

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And so, while the followers are trying to support her, their suggestion and encouragement, encouraging her into commercializing her ministry implicates them as well.

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And so, they should not be doing that, leading her astray in that manner either.

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Yeah, that's a really good observation because we have this kind of feedback loop in our culture of affirmation.

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Oh, yeah, that's okay. You know, it's okay for me because they said it's okay, and I'm not going to be offending them by doing this or whatever.

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Once again, it's that seeking of the affirmation and approval of man instead of the approval of God.

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To God, that's irrelevant what your friends think and what your audience thinks. It's totally irrelevant to him.

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If you go to people for justifying your beliefs, you're always going to find somebody to back you up in whatever error that you're in, right?

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And what we're trying to do simply, once again, is push people to the Word of God to find their standard.

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Jared And this is a good reason for people who aren't even actively involved in, you know, much official ministry to care about these kinds of things because they might end up giving someone that kind of support and not realizing that they're being complicit in something that's ungodly, right?

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And supporting something that Christ would not permit. The Bible says that temptation is sure to come, but woe to those by whom temptation comes.

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We don't want to be out of our own ignorance, tempting others into the sin of selling ministry.

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Andrew, I'd like to ask you, what would you say to someone who would look at some of these profiles like this one and say, this is all a straw man.

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No one would say this kind of stuff. You're obviously, you know, couching this in terms that are real easy to handle.

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Andrew Most of these profiles are based on reality. They're not made out of thin air. Didn't get an

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AI to make it up. These are all things that are prompted by real interactions we've had with people, either me or other people

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I've heard talk about it. A lot of this stuff is, it might even be hard to make up if it weren't real, because I mean, that is what, as you get older, you realize, right?

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So much of life is crazier than fiction. So what I'm trying to do is each of these people is an everyman in a sense, kind of bringing together all of these real scenarios that we've encountered again and again in our interactions with people as we try to point them to scripture in different ways on this issue.

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Tim Yeah, it really is incredible just how common these arguments are. The ox, the worker being worthy of his wages, you know, as being these things that blanket permit all forms of monetizing ministry.

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This is not something we're making up. We encounter it all the time. So just going back to this core issue, which is at the heart of almost everything here is, you know, principle over pragmatism.

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I just wanted to throw out that this was the original sin, you know, the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

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If you've ever looked into what that phrase means, you know, the knowledge of good and evil. A lot of people think, oh, okay, this is talking about Adam not having known good and evil before in, you know, any kind of sense.

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Well, he knew what good was before he had experienced good. So it's not talking about an experiential knowledge in that sense.

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It's also not talking about, you know, having no cognition about what evil might be.

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You know, he was given this command, he knew it was wrong to eat of the tree. So he knew what evil was in that sense.

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What knowledge of good and evil refers to in scripture as you look is the capacity for judgment. You know,

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Solomon is described as one who knew good and evil because he was a good judge, right? So it's our desire to take judgment into our own hands about things that we are not supposed to be the judge of.

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Man was not supposed to be the judge of whether or not this fruit looked good and was pleasing to the eyes and, you know, would be delicious to eat.

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That was rather supposed to be God's judgment about whether or not it was good for man. And what we do in these circumstances, when we say, but look how much

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I'm giving, but look how much they're getting, but look how much, look what they could do to solve this problem here, that problem there, is we're taking that fruit and looking at it and saying, well, this is delightful to the eyes.

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This would be delicious to the stomach. And we are committing that very first sin, which is wanting to be the arbiters of good and evil based on our assessment rather than trusting

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God's assessment of what good and evil is. And this really is just a root sin that was the downfall of humanity.

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And just to realize how pervasive and deceitful that sin is, while on one hand, you know,

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I really, I get it. I feel for Julia. You know, I recognize that people are used to assessing things on these, you know, quick judgments and, you know, looking around at what harm is being done that they see being done.

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But at the end of the day, the true faithful Christian is the one who's not walking by sight, but rather walking by faith and trusting what the

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Lord has said. Not what they are assessing to be good and wise. Petey Amen.

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Amen. And if you are Julia or somebody like Julia listening, we just want to say we love you.

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We are excited about what Julia is doing. I mean, the world needs more

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Julias. I mean, she is not the kind of person we want to discourage in any way in what she's doing.

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The ministry sounds wonderful. I mean, a God -centered, Christ -exalting content, helping people seek healing in Christ.

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Absolutely. We affirm and encourage people like Julia to do even more and more for Christ.

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And in a sense, I feel for her because she's young and she, in a sense, is a victim of a church that has failed her in many ways in this issue.

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She has an audience of people who have not pointed her in the right direction and instead encouraged her in the wrong direction, and then she's probably a part of a church that has never addressed these issues.

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And so, she's trying to feel her way blindly with what the culture dictates and what her own pragmatism and logic dictate, but she's never had pastoral guidance on these things.

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And so, yeah, I feel bad. So many of these people, you know, they're so well -meaning, they're doing such wonderful things for the kingdom, and we do not want to ever downplay that or deny that.

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And our love for what they're doing, our love for them, you know, she's reaching a lot of people with really good content that's encouraging and helping people find healing in Christ, and we do not discount that at all.

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We just want to see her thrive in her mission and actually reach more people, right?

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Because that's what we're trying to do over and over, and so many of these people fail to see the logic in how they're limiting their reach, limiting how much impact they could actually have if they were giving freely.

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That's a little bit from my heart I just want to share to Julia. If I were talking to her in person,

32:32

I would want her to know that. I would too. Go get it, girl. Yeah, I mean, likewise,

32:38

I would hope that by following the biblical model of funding ministry that Julia would end up having a ministry funded even better than it was before.

32:48

So, we wholeheartedly hope that these ministries will be very well -funded through the generosity of God's people, but done in a biblical manner.